General statistics
List of Youtube channels
Youtube commenter search
Distinguished comments
About

Horatio82
TIKhistory
comments

Comments by "Horatio82" (@horatio8213) on "Debate on Warsaw Uprising and Polish Resistance WW2 | TIK History Q&A 23" video.

PPR (Polska Partia Robotnicza) was without any real influence in Poland, before 1944 when Red Army and NKWD start destroying other branch of Polish ressistance, no one treat PPR and Armia Ludowa other as a Stalin's agents. In realit they were only agents of Soviet communism.
5
Soviet and Russian governments take blame for Stalinl decision. We today have all evidence that in 100% proof of Soviet crimes against Polish officers in Katyn. If you have any doubts, check place called Miednoye. Germans never captured it, but still there is massive grave of Polish officers. Don't defend Stain, he was the same like Hitler.
3
@moskit76 Soviet and Russian government admit that NKVD killed Polish POV. Also Katyń was only one od many places that NKVD do it, and today we know most of them. You are just like Holocaust denier. Also even before 1990's were enough evidence that prove Soviet did that crime. And where is sources claim that Polish government lose this evidence? Because there open to study in Poland. You basicly lied.
3
In sad reality, is very true. Polish government in London try to stop uprising, but situation go south very fast.
3
@CruelDwarf Radio broadcast was suggesting incoming Red Army, it was clear and vocal argument to take action. Even Stalin argue that there is no AK, activity because only AL take actions against Germans. One way or another Stalin was prepering ground to create communist goverment in Poland. Statement in broadcast was clear sugestion to take massive action, not partisant as you suggest! Spiker said "....let the milion citzens of Warsaw became milion soldiers!" Lie is hidden in that Stalin suggest help for uprising, but when it comes, he just said that nothing is going on in Warsaw! But more important was that the Germany forces were leaving Warsaw and Germans start preparng city to force evacuation and destroying it. And people belive in help from Red Army. Also main argument in AK command was that there is no real way to stop low ranks from independent action against incoming German retreat. Only option was take control over units and try to stick to plan. Also when single Stuka's were routing uprising, Soviets even didn't try send one or two fighter units over city. Later when allied comand ask them about usage of some airfields on liberated Polish teritory, Stalin reject that. Even if allied prepare themself that landings. Fight in Warsaw take whole two months and Soviets sabotage every attemp to help Warsaw, even from gen. Berling and his Polish troops.
3
@CruelDwarf I will respond you with quote from this transmision. It is full text in original form (you can translate yourself, good luck whit this...). Transmision was done 29th and 30th July 1944. First was transmition of Radio Moscov, second day was transmited from communist puppet radion in Moscov named "Radiostacja im. Tadeusza Kościuszki" "Warszawa drży w posadach od ryku dział. Wojska radzieckie nacierają gwałtownie i zbliżają się do Pragi. Nadchodzą, aby przynieść nam wolność. Niemcy wyparci z Pragi będą usiłowali bronić się w Warszawie. Zechcą zniszczyć wszystko. W Białymstoku burzyli wszystko przez sześć dni. Wymordowali tysiące naszych braci. Uczyńmy, co tylko w naszej mocy, by nie zdołali powtórzyć tego samego w Warszawie. Ludu Warszawy! Do broni! Niech cała ludność stanie murem wokół Krajowej Rady Narodowej, wokół warszawskiej Armii Podziemnej. Uderzcie na Niemców! Udaremnijcie ich plany zburzenia budowli publicznych. Pomóżcie Czerwonej Armii w przeprawie przez Wisłę. Przysyłajcie wiadomości, pokazujcie drogi. Milion ludności Warszawy niech stanie się milionem żołnierzy, którzy wypędzą niemieckich najeźdźców i zdobędą wolność." Text is covered by multiply historic sources. There is no way to deny existence of it. This is one of it. Andrzej Albert: Najnowsza historia Polski 1914–1993. T. I. Londyn: Wydawnictwo Puls, 1994. ISBN 1-85917-024-2. s. 588–589.
3
@nuradinsadigi9148 If you called Poland dictatorship (not really),hen how you will call USSR or Third Reich? In some way Polish Government on Exile was first democratic Polish government from 1926, because French and Britain politics force this government to be open for all Polish parties. In any way PPR or Gwardia Ludowa and Armia Ludowa were Polish organistations. There were communist organisation form by Polish collaborators of Stalin. After war they create main body of dictatorship in Poland. The were responisiable for mass murders and enslavment of own nation. And belive me, any conflicts between Poles, Jews, Ukrainian or Bielarusian are dwarfed by attrocieties commited by USSR and it's puppets. About Polish "expansionism", I can tell you that in 1930 many European nations were in position to establish itself in the world and Poland was in any way more aggressive than Czechoslovakia, Romania or Yugoslavia. You just proving that you don't really know that much about history of this part of the world. Remeber that big portion of conflicts in this part of Europe was caused by imperial politics of Austria, Russia and Prussia from 17th to 20th century.
3
@ScamallDorcha In any definition of democracy there is nothing about direct vote as a condition. Democracy just mean rule of the people. Basic definition of democracy demands that ruling body or person in that system was elected or control by elected institution. Basicly voters control governmentig body by elections. Both USA and UK are ruled by parliment. Head of state is responsiable for governing state, in UK that is Prime Minister, in USA president. In UK Queen is just symbolic head of state. And in both countries justuce system is independent form other branches of the government. And in any definition there is no mention that democracy is republic. Countries like Danmark, Sweden, Switzland in your definition are not democracies. Then I am sure that I could say that US and UK were in that time deomcratic countries.
2
Poland agree to attack with coordination with Germany any other countries? NO. USSR did that, YES! They are called alies because for time in 1939 to 1941 both dictators cooperate in full. In military, politacaly and economical ways. Whitout Stalin's help, Hitler would end war as a loser in 1940. Whitout resources from USSR Wermach can't go to offensive in West in 1940. If you claim there were coordination with Germany and Poland show any documents or sources that show any coordination between both countries. In case of Third Reich and USSS we have tons of documents and comaprising that to relations between Poland and Germany is a poor joke. Accusing Poland as a Hitler's allied is just product of Soviet propaganda and way to distract from Ribbentroppp-Molotov Pact!
2
Poland existed as a country from 10th century to nearly 19th (1795). We were longer a united and independent country than some states in Europe you mention. Yes we have tough history, but claiming that we were rouge nation of Europe is like cliaming that Germany and Italy shouldn't been united in 19th century. Also German and Soviet invasions were planed and in any way provoked by Poland. Problem with Polish-Czechoslovakian border exist because both countries claim that Zaolzie is their territories (when most living there people were ethnic Poles), but in 1920 when Poland fought whit Soviet Russia, Czechoslovakian Army invade Zaolzie, which was under Polish control and annexed this territory. That is the part which most people don't mention this controversy. Even in 1945 both countries were prepering to fight for this territory, but then Stalin decide to force Poland to resign from it's claims. History isn't black and white as we want to be.
2
That is also wrong assumption, in 1938-1939 fate of Poland and other Middle and East Europiens countries was decided by geopolitics. No one in Poland can't support Hitler's or Stalin's dreams because we all know that we will be his next victim. Only way was fight. No one expect Stalin's gambit. Hitler and Stalin demands were impossiable to realise. Because next step will be just subjegation and destroying of Polish state. Last chance to keep peace in Europe was defend Austrian and Czechoslovakian independence, but even greate powers didn't, then how Poland can? As a Polish born citizen and I understand mistakes and tragic situation of Poland before 1939. Problem is that lot of people from Western Europe don't know and understand history of this part of the world.
2
@berndf.k.1662 You really belive that? Maybe in time of peace between Poland and Germanythat was True. But from people I personalny know and from materiał evidence all things you write about German occupation of Poland are basicly Goebbels wet dream. Most work done by Poles were force labor or even slavery. Polish workers had no rights, they were treated like cattle. Rememeber we were sub-humans for Germans. You really belive that Germans were So nice and polite thats Poles killed themself to serve them? You know who provide most pictures covering crime done in occupation? German themselvs. Thousends of Pictures documenting mass executions, brutality of everyday life under nazi regime. You basicly don't know nothing about History of WW2 or you just lie.
2
There is one problem with your arguments. All of them were were accurate also in WW1, but still death blow for Second Reich came from Balkans. When French general attack from Saloniki and whipe out whole southern flank of Central Powers. It was contradiction to popular view that Balkans can't be a terrain for mobile warfare. General Franchet d'Esperey prove that is not close to truth.
2
@TheImperatorKnight I agree with some funny quote: "British Empire was created in opposition to British Government". Because most of colonies starts as a private trade enetrprises. And many times London didn't want to be involved into this operations. In short London became capitol of empire that was created by private sector. History sometimes is just insane.
2
Even Polish generals know that. War plan was to stand as long we can, evacuate as much we can. Then in 1940 or in 1941 crush isolated Third Reich. Poland's role was just take first blow in war, like Serbia in WW1. But Stalin create own plans and in September of 1939 he became Hitler's ally.
1
@bololollek9245 There was people that report to Germans that they heard shoots in 1940, from this woods. Thats all, Also reaylt burial sites were finded by usage of Soviet documentation. Any claim that Germans do it is True, that was crime of NKVD.
1
It depend s what you recognize as ideological? Democracy is open to disscusion, try t in USSR or Third Reich and you will see the difference.
1
@ScamallDorcha Really? You just claim that because?
1
teslagod2003 Do I claim that USSR was democratic? Were?
1
teslagod2003 Democray don't have monoparty system. Only Party members were elected to office. Election don' t mean automaticly democracy. There is more to it. USSR was totalitarian dictarorship whith some element that.look like democracy. And yes from 1926 Poland was authoritarian country.
1
teslagod2003 " chang kai shek was a dictator, yet china was a democracy under him..." I think you really don't understand what is democratic system. Chang Kai Shek never created democracy in China or in Taiwan. In his rule he basicly he was dictator and his party monopolize power, no real opposition was allowed. In reality Taiwan crerates real democracy in 1996. Go back to sources and check your knowledge because in this case you didn't get it right.
1
teslagod2003 Modern democracy is a political system where you have at least, free elections, separation of power and free speach. Nothing of that exist in USSR or Third Reich. If you still claim that USSR have elements of democracy you should check your historical knowledge. In USSR only members of communiost Party can be elected, Party was ultimate creator of laws and there was no free speach in USSR. Simple, but you still missing understanding of difference between democracy and sud-democrtic elements in other political systems. Also I do not support anti-vaccination movment. You just use random slenders because youjust lack knowledge and arguments. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/democracy At it goes: 1)In USSR were no control by non-party members on governmemt, that is not rule of the people, that is Party dictatorship, 2) Only people from monoparty were elected, then members of the party were privliged in society 3)no separation of power, Party was highest ruler and could ignore the law 4)no free speach, critiziting state or Party end in prison or worse. 5)election in USSR were falsified and from start bolsheviks to keep power need mass terror. How can you claim that in USSR exists forms of democracy when simple facts just don't agree with you?
1
@arismaiden6457 For first, Soviet Russia and later USSR never were democratic. They were some mock up build into political system, like workers counciles, but only real power was in communist party. And that party was ruled by communist leaders like Lenin, Trotsky, Bucharin, Zinovyev or Stalin. No other political parties exist or were tolerated. Just like in Third Reich or Mussolini's Italy. Other socialist parties were basicly destroyed in USSR in time of Civil War. Basicly war started by bolsheviks because they can't get to power, because they were one weakest and less influencial party in new political system of Russia after fall of Tsar. Miensheviks were more popular in this time, what push bolsheviks to military coup. Basicly they grab power by destroying democratic system that was been deweloping in that time in Russia. In reality 1917 was no revolution, just military coup done by bolseviks which in reality have no big backing in population. They win only tanks of terror and divide in enemy camp. Even attack on Winter Palace which is founding myth of revolution is a lie. And in reality Trotsky was in big part behind coup not Stalin. There is many propaganda lies hidden in official soviet history. History that contain in reality millions of soviet victimes. And most of them was nations of USSR. Also comparision to Third Reich is valid. Because even with controversy to place Hitler regime on left or right side, both states were monoparthy system, with Regin of terror and with imperialistic goals. And about USA political system, is not just two party system. In history of USA were many parties that came and go. Todays US parties are rather coalitions than classical party and probably Democratic Party will be split because of divide between establishment poloticans and hard left populisty like AOC. And educate yourself about reasons of Bengal famine. One blame was on Japan invasion of Birma, second local british and Indian politician are fault for most problem. Also in this tragedy was no design or decision to stare that population. Tha insted was done by Stalin with intension to starve Ukraine ( Kazachstan also was treat like that). About bombings you forgott two key things. Axis done this from start of war, targeting civilians by design. The same was done by Soviets in time of invasion on Poland in 1939 or Finland in the same year. Second thing Allied decided bomb German cities after prolog German terror campanig of targeting civilians. War is tragedy, but this was started by Germany and USSR. I do not claim that US or UK do not commit war crimes or other crimes. Difference is that in case both countries history that was incidents, in case of USSR that was common practice.
1
@arismaiden6457 My "bias" is caused by my expirience living in communist country. And my expirience and knowledge give me lack of any trust in soviet version of history. Few evidence: Revolution was started by Bolsheviks because there were comming election, election that Lenin and Trotrsky knew that they will lose. That is why they start by military coup, rst was just propaganda excuse. Holodomor- by soviet version never happened or was cause by natural shortage. Strange that in the same time neirbores of Soviet Union do not have the same problem with famine! The sam was done by Soviets in many other places, Kazahstan was another place decimated by soviet policy that cause massive famine. Lenin was responassiable long before Stalin's rule for terror and creation of Gulag system. Stalin just perfect it. Communis economy under Lenin's rule was so "succsesfull" that was replaced by NEP and only that is why Soviet Union survive few first years in own existence.That is great problem with communist economy, in relity it dosen't work. Any notion about purges in USSR are treat as false because "communist never commit genocide". When in reality there is much more evidence for that than you want admit. Whole tragedy of 1937 Greate Purge for long time was dissmised as anti-soviet propaganda. War crimes as Katyn Massacre for long time was pointed on Germans. So called liberation of East and Middle Europe was change in occiupier. Nazis were replaced by Soviets and "miracle" happened, everywhere Soviets put their army they created communist regimes. For nearly half of centurty they oppressed millions and treat that countries like colonies. That is why "commrad" I havs no trust for Bolshevik's version of history. Becaus eit is just a one big lie. Yes USA and others commit many crimes. But they are just child's play in comparision to communist crimes.
1
@arismaiden6457 There are many historians that understand war effort USSR. They understand how crucial to crushing Germany was Soviet front. Noobody claim that USA or UK win alone the war. Many times historians just try to spin naration to own gains, then they manipulate facts and numbers. And that happened in all countries. About work standard in USSR. Do not make me laugh with soviet propaganda about standards of lovini and work under communism. In claims USSR give workers everything what they get in 20th century. Unions were in USSR illiegal, work in theory were 8h, in reality workers were forced to work longer. And thing you put on October Revolution were provide in capitalist countries by unions, but also by big bad capitalist like Henry Ford. Yes socialist in West and capitalist create better standards of work andliving than communism in USSR.
1
@arismaiden6457 Bolsheviks statr coup because they know that they will lose power. For many years soviet propaganda shape false picture of time before coup. Bolsheviks have no chance to be dominant power, they do not have any significant support in Russia outside coalition with other socialist parties. That was last moment to act for them, if Trotsky do not push Lenin to action and organise rebelion in Piotrograd there would be no rebelion. Whole myth of massive revolution in city is false from start. Bolsheviks capture main points in city, but there were no massive support for this action. Whole capturing of Winter Palace is myth.
1
You know that AK other Polish organisations provide food, medicaments, wepons and military training for Jews in ghetto. Some of this Jews stay in Poland to their deth long after war and feel Polish as same as a Jews. Many Polish people risk and help escape many of them. What they could do more? Read about Jurgen Stroop and his actions, maybe you will understand what cruel and unhuman was that time. Don't buy lie that all polish were antyshemitic. Then how the hell Jews choose Poland to live from medival times? Anserw is simple, because in whole Europe that was place when they can live in peace.
1
@boll0cks45 Most Poles work and provide to your benefit system in taxes. That is fact not your fiction. Most Poles work, not abuse benefit system as you claim. You belive in stiupid propaganda. We provide more taxes than we take benefits. After referendum I didn't see more working Brits, they prefer better paid yobs or benefits. I hope you will wake up and undertsand that without trade UK is finish. And your biggest partner is EU, not some fairyland, which still don't want trade with UK.
1
@dickesbrot5724 Poland never plan pushing any one to became catholic. Even in 16th century Polish-Lithuenian Commonwelath guarantee freedome of religion. Yes Catholics were majority, but Protestants and Orthodox Church were in the same rights, rights of Jews and Muslim were also protected. That change after long period of wars in second half of 17th century, but still Commonwealth was one of the most tolerant place in the world to 1795 (not ideal, but still). All acusation about force conversion was started by Tsars, as a way to excuse expansion on Polish-Lithuenian teritory in 16th century and it was used even in 19th century. It is just one of points in long history of polish-russian controversy. There is no side without blame. But most conflicts in 20th century in this area was created or was used by imperial rulers of Austria, Russia and Prussia. This empires were using one religion or nation to weaken another one. Just like Turks leve Balkans in state of never endning conflict.
1
@СергейРублев-т7я Yes but Lenin decide attack Poland much earlier and preparation was done long before Polish offensive on Kiev. Goal of Lenin was to connect with revolutionaries in Germany and secure that was only passiable by invading Poland! Also that was decided to crush any chance for independent Ukraine and Bielaruse, which could chose alllied with Poland, than live under Lenin's dictatorship. But we all know how Lenin love peace and hates terror......
1
@СергейРублев-т7я You don't need any quote when this two things happend: 1) Bolsheviks prepare offensive against Poland, Ukraine and Bielarus (so ironic in case of Lenin's sefl-governing nations statement) called operation "Goal Vistula". Source: Direktiwy Gławnogo Komandowanija Krasnoj Armii 1917-1920, Moskwa 1969, nr 133, 151, 311. 2)From 3rd January Bolsheviks create puppet communist government fo Poland. Styill before even Poland plan action against Soviet Russia. Source: Jerzy Borzęcki, Pokój ryski i kształtowanie się międzywojennej Europy Wschodniej, Warszawa 2012, wyd. Polski Instytut Spraw Międzynarodowych, ISBN 978-83-62453-32-0, s.31-35. Some authors quote Lenin words from early 1919, but no one give primary source. "We must direct all our attention to preparing and strengthening the Western Front. A new slogan must be announced: Prepare for war against Poland." I know that qoute earlier but now i cant find primary source for you. But still more important were agressive actions of Red Army, done long before Polish Army move on Kiev!
1
@СергейРублев-т7я Then what with a self-dermination proclaimed by Lenin? Thatis basicly a lie, because only Bolsheviks can decide what is legitimate or not. Then basicly they refuse a recognition of independence of Bielarusians and Ukrainians state existing there. State that fought with them and Poland. Bravo you just prove Bolsheviks were aggressors here. Plus what with a plans to invade Poland to push to Germany? That was a plan create and realized from January of 1919. Long before Poland take any acctions against Bolsheviks, Poland was before thay neutral to Russian Civil War. But when real intention of Bolsheviks became obvious and were in realization of that agression you blame Poles for self-defence of their independence? Sorry but knowing Soviet plans to stage revolution in whole Europe no one belive in that Lenin will stop on Cuzon Line. Also you should remeber that Lenin himself declare that partition of Rzeczpospolita done in 18th century was illegal, than in the recognition of that any one can say that Lenin agree to recognise border from that period, but even Poles were not interested to recreate this state of n borders. That agai prove how dishonest were Bolsheviks.
1
@СергейРублев-т7я Bolsheviks every where use massive terror and that was main reason they win. In Civil War their enemies were to much divided to win, but that not mean that Bolsheviks were welcome as a liberators. In Bielarus they crush with numbers a local government and with terror they keep any opposition in underground. Ukraine was tougher case, but ther was significant weaknes in civil structures. Ukrainians create army but without significant civil background. When in Poland Both structrers were present, army and civil Service were working to build republics. In reality Piłsudski knew that only way to protect Polish independence is building independent Bielarus and Ukraine. Even after winnig the war Wit Bolsheviks, he knew that they gonna try agai, because independent Poland blocks any Soviet march on West. White and Reds in Russia never could accept independent Ukraine and Bielarus, when they became Soviet Republics, they were only independent in name. Soviet Russia for many years fight with civil unrest or even internal civil upsing, that is far from vision you present. Soviet using agents and money try start revolution in most of countries in this time and in 1919 Poland was only real obstacle. That is only why in January 1919 Red Army moce on West to go through Poland to Germany. In any way Poland before show aggresive attitude against Bolsheviks.
1
@СергейРублев-т7я I just see difference between that what was done wrong in Poland after the war in comparision with what was reality in Soviet republics. Poland didn't caue artifical famine in own part of Ukraine and didn't use mass terror campain against any one. Yes there was lot of authoritarian practices. But not even close to rule of CZEKA or NKVD. Your defence of bolshevism is silly, because nothing can defend genocide and aggresive attitude to any one who even don' t support commumism. Bolsheviks can't rule without terror, thta is why they lose power in 1991. And thing you name local nationalism, in reality is right to self-determination. Right that Bolsheviks never respect. And rigthing that most Bielarusians and Ukrainians were loyal USSR. But you forgety how brutal was rule in Soviet republics and how happy were Ukrainians when German came in 1941. That is testament of quality of Bolsheviks rule.
1
@СергейРублев-т7я Specialy when only brute force keep the citizen in line. Only legitimation of Soviet rule was brutal force of Red Army and CZEKA, no real election or popular vote support communist in USSR.
1
@СергейРублев-т7я What elections, that controlled by Bolsheviks? You know that first real democratic elections were done in Russia in 1991? Bolsheviks grab power in a coup and elections were just a propaganda tool. Any one from outside the Party could be elected. I don't argue that there were no real enthusiasm and patriotism in Bolshevik's system, but I question reality of this system. Because one thing is propaganda, second thing is reality. Examples, self-determination of nations in Lenin recognition was only possiable when Bolsheviks were a rulers. Any other system was not allowed. My favorite example is when in 17th September 1939 Soviets invade Poland. They were welcomed by many people with floweres, because people belive that they bring freedome. But less than two years the same people welcome Wermacht and shoot Red Army in back. What that tell you about quality of Soviet system? By the way there is a greate joke about that: "What Hitler did that Stalin failed in years. It is simple, thanks to Hitler people start loving communism". Communism was worst thing that happend to Russia. I hope that today Russia in the end become normal country with interest of the people as a first priority.
1
@СергейРублев-т7я That happened when Red Army invade Poland in 1939, communist militias start killing Polish civil servants, soldiers and civilians. The main difference was that was done mainly by members of communist organisation, basicly that was done on Moscov's orders. When in 1941 this happened as much more independent move. That is also evidence that ther was strong resentment against outside rule. There is also situation when civilians treat Wehrmacht as a liberators on lands that was integral part of Soviet state from 1921. Evidently communis was any way benefitial for them.
1
@СергейРублев-т7я 1) Then who oppose Soviet rule in lands that was integral part of USSR after 1921. Why in 1919 Bolsheviks have to fight with in Tambov region with pesant revolt (Тамбовское восстание). If the local "patriots" were red band s and become after invasion members of Soviet represion aparatus, it is not "local" initiative but atcion created by members of communist organisation commanded from Moscov. No of nationalist would welcome Soviet Army, because for them there were occupier as a Poles. Even on lands that were under Soviet dictatorship form 1920's people cheer Wermacht and welcome it with flowers. It was sympathy caused by Soviet attrocieties. Germans desroy that very fast and I don't claim that love for Germans was reason. Basicly Lenin and Stalin show how in reality communism works or rather not wok. 2) That could be truth if other nation didn't achive economical grovth. Russia before WW1 was on road to become a industrial power of Europe. Bolsheviks destroy in 1920 economy by implementation communist ideology. Then they back to elements of capitalism and privat ownership in NEP, not really communistic system with private companies. Later came tragedy of colectivisation and forced industralisation. Why tragedy, because levels of production of food grow slovly from revolution, but after colectivisation that level drasticly drops and later growth never go to pre-revolution levels of growft. There was incidental growths, but alwas that quicly desend in iffency of central planed economy. Why country that before sell revolution sell grain istart have problems with food shortage? It was so normal in communism that in late 1970's and 1980's USA could force USSR to talk by blocking USSR from buying food from outside communist sphere of interest. If industralisation was in any way benefit for USSR, wasn't for level of life of Soviet citizens. Most of industry was use to create colossal army but in any way improve level of life of soviet citizen. Yes illiteration was liquidetated, but that was done everywhere in the same time. Level of acses to goods was much higher in poor Poland and Romania then in USSR. Whole that Soviet progress in scale of resources and land mass of USSR is not that impressive. Many todays Russian economist stop beliving in Stalin's mirracle and taklk that economy of Russia could done better without communism in 1920's and 1930's. You can say what you want but USSR destroy itself by communism. Cold War propaganda was also done by Soviet Union. Also for me history of Russia is very interesting. Such and powerful country in resources and population. But for last 300 years can't use it in full extension to improve life of own citizens. Country bulding thousends of tanks, with food shortage. Country that send man to space but people living in poverty in comaprision to other parts of the industrial world. Tsar's were bad rulers, but Lenin and Stalin were criminals. Russia is so powerful that even communism need half a century to fall. Such a power and such a level of incompetence. Sorry but communism ideology was something that is I know in my life. I have no symphaty for it because i know how it works in reality. I don't blame Russians for nothing, they are the same victimes of communism as other people, maybe even more.
1
@СергейРублев-т7я You want say that they were so cruel that they want kill every Pole? Bravo that is new level of propaganda. Many of that Ukrainian and Bielarusians fight in Polish Army with Germans. They didn't see Germans as a liberators. You basicly are telling about fringe of both nations.
1
@СергейРублев-т7я 1) I don't blame people for rebeling against stiupid Polish policy (which i never support because it was stiupid and criminal). But most violence was done by so called Red Militias which are not in any way spontaneously movement. But arm of communist movment created as a 5th column in many Euroepan countries by Soviet secret service, Kominter was just base for this actions. "Moscow’s orders are trying to direct this aggression in the direction necessary for the USSR." Yes because that was peacfull policy of communist. Stage rebelion, send troops and declare that people want to join to "paradise" called USSR. 2) Yes it was. But you don't wrote how Bolsheviks caused it and how they deal with it. Beginning was mass famine cause by Bolshevik rule, pesants just don't want to die from starvation. And how it's ends, "hero" of revolutino M. Tuhachevsky massacre civilian population and use gas weapons to end this rebelion But in any way that was only one instance of Boilshevik's terror. There is many more trough the whole pre-war Soviet history. 3) "People greet the Wehrmacht with flowers" That is not propaganda, that is from memories of German soldiers and people living there. Not that convinient but thats true historical event. Russians also hate Stalin and communism. But every beliver of communism will be shouting that is not true. And Russians and other nations of USSR bring large numbers of soldiers to collaboration units for Third Reich. Wlasov and others don't fight for Germans they fight against communist masters. But today in Russia no one want to talk that nearly 1 milion of Russians fought against Stalins regime. Uprising against Red Army in Baltic States or in Caucasus don't give any doubts how population of USSR hate communism. Hitler' s mistake was his barbaric treatment of conquered lands. He turn people to communism.
1
@СергейРублев-т7я 4) Poland is independent because both Communist and Nazi doctrin fails (as a different shades of socialism) not because Stalin or Hitler want independent Poland. Soviet economy before war was still weaker than you state. Simple comaprision when in 1938 USSR GDP was around 9% of world GDP, Poland GDP was around 2%. That not really prove any soviet succses, rather show how Soviets waste 20 years of peace. Remember that Poland starts from much more worse position. Most of industry was destroyed, country was depleted by war and Poland was created from three different social-economic regimes. Most of Russian industry was inatct by evolution, factories weren't deestroy. Bolsheviks grab three major Russian industrtial areas, Piotrograd, Moscov and Ural . Only chaos of falling economy and civil war stop cooperation between them, Bolshevik "war communism" basicly destroy what wasn't destroyed by war effort. Poland in 1938 posses economy with 25% GDP of USSR. Yes you really imprese me with Soviet "miracle". We didn't have oil fields and all resources that Russia posses. but still we create after world crisis a growing economy. 5) Yes civil war hit Russian economy, but real hit came after with implementing "war communism". After that only NEP could rescue USSR from fall.
1
I know few tricks how to use statistic to cover truth. By example what was criteria of calling a collaborator, because way like Soviets treat Crimean Tatars is extreme example fo Stalin's policy. Greater part of Tatars where deported from Crimea, even 200 000. Only because they were living outside Stalin's control, under German occupation. You post number 10000 Tatars as a collaborators, but Stalin treat that way number 20 times bigger. Next trick what with criteria of age and sex. What with geografical criterai of study, that cover as a precentage whole USSR population or just terrains under German control. Posted numbers without context are maybe insignificant but if you analise they closely they start beeing more alrming. Tell me also how Soviet themself traet civilian population living under occupation or POW. Because we know today that POW going back to USSR were treten like traitros and in many cases send to Gulags or prisons. Beeing POW was seen in eyes of communist the same as beeing traitor. In very similar way communist treat civilians. Not without reasons after the WW2 in USSR mass deportation of whole nations became another way to control population in USSR. An not without reason Russians don't like cover this story. It is one of darkest part of Great Patriotic War, when even most trusted people betray USSR. Wlasov was one of the most famous general before he was captured and he turn against USSR. Lot of local traitors come from communist ranks. Problems with narration about colaboration is much more. But i'm sure that by Soviet filters all of this people you mention were nationalist and fascist. And I'm sure that Estonians, Latvians and Lithuenians don't sen themself as a collaborators because they were under USSR occupation.
1
@СергейРублев-т7я 1)Wow and again when hunger strike in USSR that always is not fault of communist party. You know that USSR fall because basicly there was problems to aquire any goods in shoops and economy of socialism bancrupt the country. And in Lenin and Stalin times were many famines that killes milions of citizens of USSR. 2) "Gas shells accounted for a small percentage of all shells and were used due to a lack of weapons." Any instance usage of chemical weapons on own citizens should make you suspicious abouy government policy. And any lacks in arms don't justify using weapons of mass destrucion on unprotected population, because that was used by Tuhachevski. "Detailed studies show that no one died from gas poisoning" Can you provie me link for that studies. I'm wery intersted how they were done and if in reality anyone do it. Because knowing reality of treatment of civilians in USSR I don't really belive that anyone done this study. Many times communists say that they always set priority on well beeing of citizens. But after they just ignore problem or cover up catstrophy. Just like Holodomor or Chernobyl.
1
@СергейРублев-т7я Then wroter what happend to people that back after 1945 when war was over. You just to give data for only time to 1944, when I talk about whole war and time after the war. Many of this whom were returned to military was demobilised and again were put on filtration proces. Is very courious that you forget about thousend liberated in 1945 and automaticly send to prisons or camps. Many sources give only information before demobilisation, then again mistritment after war is not covered. But other instances show that POW was untrusted even long after war.
1
@СергейРублев-т7я " The Soviet peoples subjected to deportation (Crimean Tatars, Chechens) became such because an individual investigation of the crimes (collaboration, desertion) was impossible." I forgot that in USSR main rule of law was "you are guilty before we assume your innocent". Mass deportation is crime which was perpetrated by government which should protect own citizens. That is so obvious that today in Russia law forbids any mentions about this brutal action. And even takeing your blunt statment, there were no preparation to filter Tatars or judge them. Stalin as a butcher he was just decide to move thousends of people from there homes to middle of nowhere. That is difference between normal state and Soviet, normal state protect citizens, in USSR state protect itself agaiunst own citizens. "These people had a low level of culture and protected those who committed a crime against the state. People with a higher level of culture (Slavs, Baltic states) were not deported (except for separate groups) because they separated themselves from criminals on an individual level." For long time i didn't read such vicious racist statment. If your mind see Tatars on "low level of culture" bravo your not beter than nazist. And without trails you can't prove who was traitor, who is not. But why bother a "people of low level of culture". Problem whit this is that the Ukrainian and citizens of Baltic States were mass deported too. Today population of Crimea is a testament of this racist policy. Mass deportation really show higher levels of culture. Just like ancient barbaric actions of Asyrians or Babilonians.
1
@СергейРублев-т7я 1) Deporting 200000 people before even you try filter the collaborators is a crime. Families of soldier Red Army were also pack to wagons without any trails. You just defenend barbaric standard, if 1 is guilty then even 9 innocent will be punished. There wer no protection in this, that was just was Stalin revenge. Making an exccuse on racist categories don't make your case stronger, just show that Bolsheviks were the same racist like nazist. 2) Really. even from Poland Ukrainian were deported into eastern part of USSR in years 1944-47. First practice of sowiet occupation was aresting everone who was seen as a "enemy of communism", next step was mass deportation non-russian populations. You see that everywhere where USSR install it's borders. After 17th September 1939 to 22 June 1941 Soviets deported 700000 Poles from occiupied territories. All of them were "nationalist"? Baltic States suffer first deporatation in 1940, next wave was done in 1944-45 after "liberation". Todays Russian minorities in this countries are effect of this planed moves. If we blame Hitler for war crimes like mass deportation and terror. The same cathegories are used to wrote about criminals like Stalin. "You simply repeat the primitive demonization as an argument (the Soviet state is not normal, Stalin is a butcher), etc." You say primitive demonization. Ok I will response with examples. 1)Hitler kill millions of people but small numbers, but much smaller number of citizens of Third Reich (even in precentage), as like communist, Jews or other "unwanted" cathegories of people. Stalin and Lenin kill milions of own citizens even before they invade any of other countries. They create system of oppression working for decades. That is good reason to name them butchers. Do we demonize Hitler or Third Reich? 2)What you can name action when Soviet government without declaring a war and after arresting officers of neutral army decide kill them wihout any judical procidings. That is crime whatever you want to paint that. When Germans kill Soviet POW that is a crime, but when Soviet do this is justified even when they kill soldiers of army with they officialy are not in war. Stalin even try to push mass execiution of 70000 German officers without trail. Just as an cleansing of German population from "enemies of Allied powers". 3)When Stalin start colectivisation effect was mass famine on Ukraine. We could discuss if tha was effect of plan or negligence. Fact is that when Ukraine was starving, USSR sell grain outside. What government starve own nation, butchers and bandits is again good name for them. Also other regions of USSR were famine struck great populations. Kazahstan was hit as bad as Ukraine in 1932-33. 4)What is normal in practicies of Cheka, NKVD or KGB. That organisations act like Gestapo in Third Reich. Tortures and killing the arrested was normal day by day practice. Soviet practice was you are guilty and you have to prove that you are not the enemy of the state. In Europe in 20th century only totalitarian regims use this logic. 5) What with a famous Order No. 227 and other laws connected with it? Terrorising and punishing the families of POW? That was order that cost Soviet Union thousends of wasted soldiers life. How you can support persecution of families of "traitors which surrender"? By that logic Stalin should be arrested, because his son Jakov was taken by Germans and became POW. 6) What with warcrimes done by Red Army? Massive persecution of "liberated nations" . Rapes, brutal pacification as you name them "local nationalists", mass deportatioms. That is sign of normal state? Thats rather examples of degenrate bandit state. Examples are countless. USSR is responsiable for million of dead own citizens. Thre is no greater crime for state that treat that own citizens. But in your logic that is nessesity of state. That is difference for other Europeans, we see state as a protector. You put state on piedestal and citizens have no rights for you. Russian were always ready to serve state nad communist abuse that to levels that even worst Tsar's done. Everything that to dystopian and genocidal practice of marxist ideology. Insted becoming power with citizens living on high level of life. USSR became a superpower with poor and oppressed population. Power was so important for Party that the normal people were just resource, not citizens. That way I recognize a USSR as greater tret for own citizens that anybody else. We in Poland like to praise a tragedies, but we see then as they were. Russian citizens praise greatest tragiedies as a victories. Communism destroy and is still destroying Russia from inside.
1
@rustammamin5726 Then what was that? BECAUSE TODAY OFFICIAL NAME OF POLAND IS RZECZPOSPOLITA POLSKA.
1
@rustammamin5726 You really don't know nothing about Polish history. Rzeczpospolita Obojga Narodow was created in 1569 from to existing earlier separete countries Crown of the Kingdom of Poland and Grand Duchy of Lithuania. And was one of the modern regimes in the world. Almost 150 years were need to destroy this state from 1648, when series of wars and years of falling economy with collapsing political system buried this country to 123 years of partition. In 1918 Poland just regain independence. In nutshell. Poland as a country exist from 966 (date of oficial becoming a christian country) and in 1025 became kingdome! You literaly know nothing about history. Go and read even Wikipedia site about whole Polish history! In 16th and first 40 years of 17th century Rzeczpospolita was one of the most peacefull and well prospering countries in Europe. Rich, with working parliment (called Sejm), religious tollerance and well educated nobility. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland You are evidence that you should read with understanding of things you reading or writing! You make my day with your ignorance. :) I send you regards from man born in non-existing nation and country.
1
@rustammamin5726 You wrote also: Rustam Mamin odpowiedział(a): „Horatio82 One question: Are Roman Empire and modern Italy are the same countries?” You relly do not understand what is nation and state. For your question i will give you this: Do you question rights of Jews, Greeks or Bulgarians to create own states? Are Jews are not the same nation as 2000 years ago?
1
@rustammamin5726 I get yours, it goes like that: Rustam Mamin odpowiedział(a): „Horatio82 One question: Are Roman Empire and modern Italy are the same countries?” My answer is: You relly do not understand what is nation and state. For your question i will give you this: Do you question rights of Jews, Greeks or Bulgarians to create own states? Are Jews are not the same nation as 2000 years ago?
1
@rustammamin5726 Modern Italy is any way conected to Roman Empire. But I'm really interested how you explain that todays Jews are not the same nation if you think that Greeks are? They protected culture and language, as a nation they recreate own country (in controversial way, but still). I am very curious how you expalain that Poland/Rzeczpospolita wasn't a state before WW1? As a country was recognize even by the countries that participated in partitions. I agree that their is controversary around east borders. But historicly Rzeczpospolita conatain lands far east than artificial Curzon Line (arbitraly created by british politican without any understanding history and culture). In polish conceptions from 1918-1920 this lands sholud be independent states, Bielarus and Ukraine. 9that was conception of Pilsudski).But after the Polish-Bolshevik war that couldn't be possiable and Polish nationalist push stiupid policy of assimilation. It contains lot of interna Polish politics and it is tagled with independence movments of Bielarusian and Ukrainians. Of course Russia will claim that lands were Russian, but that is not even close to reality. Because most of this lands were captured by Russia in end of 18th century, before for 500 years that was Lithuenian and later Rzeczypospolita lands. And before that that as land controled by Ruthenian nobility. That is very inconvinient fact for Russian claims.
1
@rustammamin5726 1) Irrelevant, because no one suggest recreation Polish-Lithuenian Commonwelth in 1918! There were conceptions to create a alliance of independent countries, Poland, Baltic States, Bielarus and Ukraine. When Polish-Bolshevik war ends there wer no chance for realisation of this concept. That even produce position from Piłsudski, he was disapointed because he see that without real independent Ukraine and Bielarus, Poland will we obvoius target for immanent Soviet expansion. He understand that Russia always will be trying to subjegate Ukraine, before moving against Poland, Bielarus and Baltic States. That is basicly what is happening today with Putin's expansion plans. 2) For Rzeczpospolita Sejm/Parilment was central strucure, a king was head of both parts of Commonwelth, like British monarch. What is not Modern in this? In the British Empire less percgentage people get to vote in election than in Commonwelth in late 18th century. And constitution of 3rd May of 1791 was modern reform and way modernize Rzeczpospolita. That was First modern European constitution. Give rights to all citizen (only revolutionary France made bigger reform in Europe in this time) and modernizating regime of the country. Basic knowledge about Polish History! Polish teritory wa were established from medival times. 3) Back to example of Greece, regaining independence in 19th century teritory was based on historic borders. Even today China claim that they are still teritories that should be under control of Beijing, because they are historic part of China. It is one of the basic way that countries claim ownership of teritories. Look on unification of Italy or Germany in 19th century, not all teritory was ethnicly German or Italian in this time. But that didn't stop unification.
1
@rustammamin5726 1) On culture and historic range of governing yes it was. That is still today norm in International law to recognize historic base of teritory and heritage. Bolsheviks did the same. 2) Jews weren't a nation, thats a bold statement. International law recononize existence a Jews as a nation from ancient times. Praticaly and in theory. The sam you have with Chineese, try to tell China that they are not the same country that exist before times of Christ!
1
@rustammamin5726 Galicia and Lodomeria are artificial names create after partirion of Rzeczpospolita by Austians. This land were named in this time as a Malapolska and Lwów were in Ukraine (which this time was only an geographic name). Also all lands that create Poland in 1918 were lands which contain ethnic Poles as a majority. Is obvies that eastern parts od teritory with Ukrainians or Bielarusians will be place where both side will push own agenda. Polish proposition was creation od Alliance or confederation independent states. Not mention other border. But here is very cleartaht there is more then one story to understand. 2) You take as mistake problem of recognition of state Israel, not the nation. Because existing of Jews as a nation is Ling establishes de facto and de jure.
1
@rustammamin5726 1) Does Bolsheviks provide independenc for Ukrainians and Bielarusians how they promiss? No they don't. Polish proposition was just realpolitik for guarantee existence for this nations and free states. But mistakes made by both sides bury this option and Poles suffer less in this situation. You know that "mithical" Rzeczpospolita create possibilty for both nations of Ukraine and Bielarus and give them chance to build with own culture and language, before that lands were taken by Russia which treat this people like "just other kind of Russians". You should read more about history of this lands. 20th century is just small period in more than 1000 years of civilization there. Mistakes made by Poles, Ukrainians and Bielarusian after 1918 were not the whole picture of this region. Attacking Poles for doing things done by everyone around don't show any objectivism on your side. I don't try make Poles saint, because we are not. But reading comments which prove bias against one nation is really annoing. 2) China as a centralized country are recognize from 221 BC and that state is existing from then to today! Dynasty changes, but country was the same. And Chineese culture and civilization is much older as whole. 3) You try to compare periods mesure in case of Rzeczpospolita in 123 years (1795-1918). To hundred of years in case of Italy and Roman Empire. That is dishonest and in any way valiable argument, as like ...apple and oranges, two different things. But still I show you more examples. Bulgaria and Grecce are countries that rise to independence after ages of occupation. That is my anwser. Nation can recrate state in borders which was in it before fall under occupation because that was status quo before fall. Roman Empire in this case can only claim region of Italian Penisula, becuase that was natural teritory of Rome, rest were provinces, not integral territory. Rzeczypospolita in any way was empire, it was federation with single Sejm/Parliment and one king.
1
@rustammamin5726 Both names didn't exist before garbing this land by Austria, in law this names are nothing more than names of administration units. You understand that? It never exsisted before! Galicia was just transplanted from name of another Habsburg state Spain! Never was used before here. Lodomeria was also created as a artificial name which was lainize name one of historic duchy existed there.It was done to cut tais from Rzeczpospolita. And you are mistaken because over 45% population of this area was Polish, rest was mix of Ukrainians, other Rurhenian nations, Jews and other nations. Poles were biggest group, as such they dominated at west and in big cities like Lviv (today name of city). As natural population was mixed in differen portions of different part of region. Then in any way Poles were there in minority! 2) I wrote about nations and right to creation of state. That is my opinoin and opinion of international law. Yes case of state Israel is contoversial, but not the status of Jews as a nation. 3) Are you forget that after Peace Treaty of Riga from 1921 and Polish-Soviet Non-Agression Pact 1932 this teritories were recognize by USSR as a Polish.? That mean when Soviet invade Poland in 1939 they break both treaty and they occupied teritory that was not in any way part of USSR. It was illegal occupation. And when after WW2 USA, UK nad USSR create new Polish borders, lands in West was given as a reparation for lost Eastern teritories, then as such even Stalin recognize that Polish rights.
1
@rustammamin5726 1) You don't know reality of life in Soviet Union under Lenin and Stalin. There were no real authonomy for Ukraine. Have never heard about Holodomor? Or mass killing of Ukrainian intelectuals by secret police? Go ask Ukrainians about that. When USSR invade Poland Ukrainians were happy because they belive in Soviet propaganda. After two years the same people welcome Wermacht with flowers and collaborate to destroy USSR, try to anwser to that miracle. 2) I don't know what books you read but China and India are in the same cathegory of primal centers of civilization. China as a state exist from ancient times to today! Many times was decentralized, but if you have problem with understading China is existing from thousend of years country and nation. 3) There is no invented myth, look on map of Rzeczypospolita from 16th and 18th century, state that was from see to see. Nothing mithical. Poles were in any way asymilated, we protect our culture, language and national identity. But in this time new nation rise and that was biggest problem with creating borders and new forms of state. No one was that crazy to push to rebilding Poland in borders from 18th century. And noone try. But you still belive in that and I don't see reason why? Source of Polish succes here is based on many things, but we in 1918-1921 did two significant things, we unify civil services in whole teritory and we create working army. Lithuenian did the same, but Ukrainians dail with civil strucures and build two seperatre republics. That was source of biggest weaknes of independent Ukrainians then. Stuck between Poland and Bolsheviks they to late decide to coparate with Poles. Tha can't stop conquest of half of Ukraine by Bolsheviks and end of first independent Ukraine.
1
@rustammamin5726 Can you be more specific? You understand that borders from 1918-21 were reated and forced by series of war (basicly like most borders in world)? No one create then border just because . Always were political and military actions. And USSR agree to this borders and agree to respect them. That mean you claim that agreement are not valid because always you can find some reason to say......and now they not apply? Using you logic: Soviets never want respect any international laws, only when they were forced they agree? That is your stand? In 1945 borders of Poland were created without Poles and Stalin do this for his imperial goals. And noone ask Polish people living outside this borders do they want be remove there by force. They were forced to move there by USSR. My grandmother wasn't ask if she want go, she was forced.
1
@rustammamin5726 Do you also claim that was no Holocaust or Great Purge? Because Snyder do not agree with Kotkin.
1
@rustammamin5726 There is a man who disproof your bogus claim. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gareth_Jones_(journalist) You claim was debunked many times. And even if Kotkin claims that, other autors do not agree with him. Picures and date from soviet archives provide enough evidence to proove it. You basicly act like Holocaust denier.
1
@rustammamin5726 "White" Russians, people like Borys Savikow or Semen Petiura. And many more people that want build independent Ukraine. And belive or not Stepan Bandera was one of greatest enemies of Poland. YUou try to be funny, but this men was responsiable for killing thousends of Ukrainians who don't support his ideology and thousends of Poles kille by UPA.
1
@rustammamin5726 I am very curious where you found information about that vicious plans of Pertlua? Savenlokow of a politician fighting against imperoial politics of Bolsheviks Simple example that not every body join Bolsheviks.
1
@rustammamin5726 You really don't grasp that that lands are populated mostly by Ukrainians. Thea are ovners of this lands, you give to Russia. Russia has no right to dictate what happen with this land. And if Russia want this grain, the Russia sholud trade with Ukraine. Russian Empire collapse because was ruled in idiotic way. And Russia never suffer over population. You probably read too many conspiracy theories books. Famine was in this time cause by bad menagment of Russian administrator, there were no natura famine in Russia in this time. . I know some Russian, but don't use it that much.
1
@rustammamin5726 And that don't mean that anyone want starv Russians. This argument could create only someone with metal problem.
1
@rustammamin5726 Lol you talk about 1918 situation and you bring 1931 census? That basicly one generation later when population shifted with migrations after WW1 and Russian Civil War. You really mix things that are not conected. And I wrote that in eastern parts of II Rzeczpospolitej Ukrainians dominated.
1
@rustammamin5726 Ok after rereading your post I concetrate on basicly false staetments you wrote. I will replay to them and I am ending discussion because you are just making things up and there is no sence to drag this. 1)" Rzhech Pospolitna was not a state. Therefore it is completely wrong to claim that Poland existed at 1795." Basicly there is no need to wrote any long exposition on this fake. As I wrote most recognised date of start Poland as a country is 996. And Rzeczpospolita was created in 1569 by Union of Lublin, which create one of the modern states i this time. 2)"Rzhech Pospolitna has no centralized government. This was still a loose feudal confederation. It has no well defined borders." Sejm, Senat, King, ministers of the court were central organs of Rzeczpospolita, than again you are mistaken. If you see the strucure of Rzeczypospolita it was one of the mordern form of confedarcy or depend of definition federation, sometimes is called commonwealth, but in any way that was so obscure feudal state. Going to borders, if you spend 3 minutes reading summary of Poland's hitory you will know that borders of Rzeczpospolita was form and were recognize by all it's neighbours. State recognize border and sphere of influence from anticien times. 3) "About China. I am not sure that China ever existed in 16 century A.D." There is no historian that claim that China non egsisted even before 210 BC, that was first time when China become single and cetnral ruled country, even todays name China is taken from transliteration of the name kingdom which united it, Kingdoom of Cin/Quin. But you still use false claims like: "India is very ancient civilization, and China is a young civilization" "Chinese borrowed a lot from Indians, but not visa versa. In 19 century China was ruled by regional warlords, which only formally recognized Beijing as capital." I don't want to be rude but Chineese discover many things that you use today and yes they trade and share cuture with India, but not like you claim. Partition of government or even civil war not constitute non-existence of state. Yes China many times change it's political status but noone is claiming that China disappper in this periods. Cases of American or Spanish Civil wars simply debunk your claims, country exist even when it's territory is under enemy occupation or we have case of changing government power, there is many examples of this case, one was Polish Government or Exile in WW2 and second was Serbian Government in WW1. 4) "There is no Jewish nation in Israel. Even some Israeli authors recognize this" Third Reich, Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran and other enemies of Israel and Jews don't agree with you. Also there was documents like Balfour Declaration from from 1917. There si so many other instances establishing a nation of Jews, even without talking about stste of Israel. 5) "Gareth Jones witnessed famine, some people whom I knew, also witnessed famine. But not every famine is deliberate killing of people by government. By the way, local famines in Russian empire were common even in the end of 19 century and in the of 20 century. Parents of my grangrandmother died in one of such famines. "Holodomor" concept is that famine was deliberately caused by Stalin in order to kill as much Ukrainians as possible. But this is wrong." Holodomor is fact, even if you take only Stalin's policy of colectivisation. Famine was created by administrative mesures done by communist. Gareth Jones was withess of this actions and consecuens of it. In this time any other nation have been struck with starvation and famine at scale seen in Soviet Ukraine. Confiscation of food and liquidation freedome of movement basicly cause mass toll of death. Ukraininias were targeted by government of USSR and there were much more eye-witnesses that give statment of genocidal practice which was done by communists. Mny diplomats send reports to governments to inform them what happend. You know why is that a genocide, because in the same time USSR sell grain to finace colectivisation and industralisation. Then don't use arguments used by people claimng that Holocaust never happen, Famine in Tsar's Russia was causeed by admnistrative negligence and feudal form of governing. Russia from 18th century produce so much grain that never should know famine. Resposniable was Tsar's biurocracy. You understad that with stock of grain that was in this time Russia can prevent any starvation, only indolence of govering power cause this tragedy. 6) "16 and 17 century maps of Rzhech Pospolitna are fakes made by Polish nationalists. In these maps Rzhech Pospolitna rules Crimea.." Historic maps and sources arer not creation of "polish nationalist". Rzeczpospolita was great teritorial state with baltic ports and conection to ports in Black See. That is source of statment :Od morza do morza/ From see to see. Crimean Penisula never was a part of Rzeczpospolitej and no Poilsh rulers claim that. Don't create alternative history. 7) "There we no Ukrainian nation at 1918, only some nationalistic intellectuals. By the way, even today , Ukrainian nation had not yet created." Even most radical Polish nationalis recognize Ukrainians as a nation. Scientific disscusion are when nation constitutes and when we can recognize nations. For some historians Ukrainians form as nation in early 19th century, for someone in late 1800's or even on eraly 1900's. Claiming that today there is no Ukrainian nation is basicly a false statment. I SEE YOU POST NEW REVELATIONS. "We do not know what was at 966 A.D. We do not know what was before invention of bookprinting." Yes we know from multiply sources and material evidence. History exist before print. Using your logic there was no Asyria, Rome or other historic events. "Yes it was. That is because RP was not a state. It had no central bureaucracy. RP in end of 18 century was relic from earlier " Still you prove that you don't understand history of political systems. That in 17th and 18th there were no other systems similar to Rzeczpospolitej? Oh there was, United Kingdome created from separate states of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland. One king, one pairlement and many local forms of government. And decentralisation of local government don't mean that is not a existing state. Using your argument today's Switzland is not a state. How I wrote on start you prove me that you don't understand history and scientific ways to proof reality of claims. In case of political systems and theory behind then in any case your pony was right. They sounds nice as propaganda but they are false and easy to disproof. We can discuss about history, but when some claim that China as a state didn't exist before 16th century, that is end od disscussion. Because I try to talk about history, you use sudo-science. As a admition I can understand critic of my statement as a Polish perspective. But claims like "Petrula plan staving Russia" end's disscusion, that is not history, that is propaganda. I hope that in future we can disscuse on accurate level.
1
@rustammamin5726 "Yes it was. That is because RP was not a state. It had no central bureaucracy. RP in end of 18 century was relic from earlier times." Then that is response for your idiotic claim in words man who is great historian, Norman Davies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16mDR5XILUk He definitly don't agree with your. For making clear, I have a academic education as a Bachelor of Arts in Political Science. Then I think I can say that your claims are false in this subject. Rzeczpospolita was full recognize country. Whatever you want to claim no real science is supporting your claim.
1
@jonhart7630 Poland in 1980's was a bancrupt. Because communist and socialist economy don't work. How much evidence you want, China, USSR, Venezuela. All that countries experiment with socialism and fail. China became capitalist, USSR desintegrate and Venezuela is going to be hell hole.
1
@moskit76 Any proof of you claims about Katyń dossier? Or you will just post random coments?
1
Yes, they put information that Red Army is coming and will help in Uprasing. Plus Poles saw what happened in Paris in 1944.
1
@berndf.k.1662 Problem was not the opinions of politican and top commanders, but rising push from lower ranks to start action. Communist were activly provoking Germans to retaliate on Polish civilians and lot of commander know that probably they can't stop AK fighters from attacking Germans. You should remeber how difficult was transfer of information in this conditions and this era (no internet, or independent news report, only few radio's message and oficial German's occupation propaganda) . Not that many preople know how communists treat AK soldiers. We know this today, but they don't. Red Arny was seen as a hostile, but still allied force. That was provide with Stalin's game to destroy AK by German's hands.
1
@berndf.k.1662 Whole operation starts from 5pm in whole city! Targets were bridges, military outposts and other German targets in Warsaw. All in conection to plan to secure city and prepare to defending it against German counterattack. As we know, plans sometimes fail. In some cases AK captured many targets and keep them as a defence points for many days. I first hear about killing POV by resistant soldiers (because they act as a soldiers in all rules of war from start of Warsaw Uprising, when Germans didn't act like that) and I am curious wher you find this informations. Because that sounds like creation of Geraman war propaganda. If you don't provide a source, I don't really buy that statement. Rather sound like propaganda. About AL provocations. I mean that communist AL wasn't in any way interested in Polish independence. They actions were done under ordres from Moscov. Even attack on Germans were done in Soviet interest. They were propaganda tool against AK and other organisations, that weren't communist. Main goal was push Germans to retaliation against civilians and use that as a propaganda tools to build own position. AL wasn't in any way strong enough to do more than attack some soft targets. Too small in numbers and arms. In any case any AK action was targeted as a hostile against USSR. AK fighting or not give Stalin arguments that he has in Poland AL and PKWN, real resistance, when AK is just waiting or cooparetes with Germans.
1
@berndf.k.1662 Source of your claims? You don't provide it. We can't disscus if you use unsupported claims! Any documentation supporting this "massacre"? "The central German field hospital in Warszawa was stormed by a demonstrating crowd 1st August '44." This sentence is rubbish, in Warsaw was a lot of German units, any "crowd" tring capture any military object will be massacred. Many resistance fighters trying this without proper arrament were killed and reopelled by even weak German units. That was one of the reason why uprising wasn't sucsesfull. German soldiers after becoming POW were treted with all protection of international law. Yes there were incidents that put Polish resistance in bad light, but claimnig that whole hospital were masacred without reson with any evidence is just stiupid. Again whta is a source of your claims?
1
@berndf.k.1662 If that is only source and no other is supportign this version i would be very sceptical about it. Many times Germans accuse Poles and in the end reality was very different. Remeber about whole propaganda accusations before WW2, in the end acctions like attack on Gliwitz radio station was done by Germans. You should know that is only scepticism not disbelive. Problem is that I read something like that first time and knowing reality of German occupation of Poland it looks like as a bougus accusation. It looks like as a exccuse for German actions that were targeted on ressistant fighter and civilan population. That is a source of scepticism. There is many instances when in Warsaw German soldier comit atrocieties and as a excusse they give false statements about crime commited by Poles. You should look how Germans treat Polish POW even after they guarantee them protection under the combatant status. Not mention a fate of civilians that were murdered in purposeby most of German units in city. But I will check that claims,even it looks like propaganda.
1
@berndf.k.1662 Indeed I know that in wartime and after some Poles take more than revenge on many innocent German soldiers or civilians. Yes both sides comit war crime. But it is very big difference in scale od war crime comited by Germans against Poles. Also pre-war and war German propaganda made lot of damage to credibility of Germans. For your information I don't support claims that killing unarmed soldiers or civilians was anyway moral. And I know that were some incidents including Polish soldiers killing German POW, which is any way justified. But in numbers something that was the rare practice in Polish arm forces, was done by your countryman in greate numbers. It is any justification of Polish crime, but that is just a fact. Wermacht and other branches of German military or civil strucures comit war crimes and genocide on Poles from 1st. September 1939. Scale of it is any way comparable and in case of Third Reich that was government policy supported by many Germans. Incident you mention for me is tottaly unknow, I read books about Uprising from many sources, even German slodier relations. In any of it I never found any information about this. You made me curious abot that. Maybe in future I will find a balanced information that confirm or disproof your claim.
1
@berndf.k.1662 And tell me, You claim that Germans didn't stage attack on Gliwitz radiostation? Also you claim that there weren't any other German orovocation and terrorist attack that was excusse to invade Poland?
1
@berndf.k.1662 What provocations? Gliwitz action was planed and execiuted by Germans, that was proven beyond any doubt. I will give you few samples of Germans provocations: 1)28th August 1939 member of German minority in Poland plant bomb on rail station in city Tarnow. Bomb killed 20 people. Antoni Guzy was captured and he provide information about his conetions with German intlligence. 2)in night 25th of August German army diversion group try to capture rail tunnel on Przełęcz Jabłonkowska without sucsess (that was done in first date of aggresion on Poland, date change by Hitler i the last minutes) Whole action was commited without declaration of war! 3) Attack done by German commando on German border post in Hochlinden done 31st August 1939. You can look for more, because that is just a glimps of German provocation. One the most ark episode hidden in this action was abductions of Polish citizens, which were killed and left on places of provocation by Gestapo, as a evidence of Polish guilt. Everything what i wrote was proven by capured Gestapo and SS documents. Also testimony of officials from this services like Alfred Naujocks. Even Herman Goering talk about Gliwitz incident as a reason why Germany attack Poland! And you try to suggest that Hitler proposal to Poland were acceptable? You must be dreaming. Hitler need this war and he provide bogus reasons. I'm really shocked that any German in 21st century still belive in "Polish provocations" against Third Reich was cause of 2WW.
1
@berndf.k.1662 You know that countries that regain indnpendence mostly create border by waging war with other countries. Every border was create like that by Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland, Ukraine, Bielarus or Bolsheviks. Nobody was without sin. But you stand on position that all of that was Polish guilt. Thats your problem.
1
@berndf.k.1662 "Mightbe, but Poles and Bolsheiviks among those mentioned were the onliest to annex territory of foreign population; and this was also true to Poland after WWI with undisputed German territory and to an unprecedent extreme never seen in history before after WWII." Wow so much lies in one statement. "true to Poland after WWI with undisputed German territory" What teritory you mean, Wielkopolska, Pomorze maybe Polish Pomorze? Because before 1792-95 that territoy was parto of Rzeczpospolita for hundreds of years. Taken by Prussia. Yes very " German territory ", but only in your imagination. People of Silesia/Slask rebel 3 times to not to be in Germany. Again that mean that territory is undisputed? But this just make me laugh: "n unprecedent extreme never seen in history before after WWII." Names Alsace-Lorraine tell you something? So you don't know German history or just lie. Bravo you just kill your credibility. About things you write about witnesses nad evidence of German crimes in WW2. I willl give you taste what German "heroes" do by own pictures and relations. Germans just give evidence themself. In photos and writing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroop_Report http://www.auschwitz.dk/Stroop.htm https://www.academia.edu/1391999/Mallmann_Klaus-Michael_B%C3%B6hler_Jochen_Matth%C3%A4us_J%C3%BCrgen_2008_Einsatzgruppen_in_Polen._Darstellung_und_Dokumentation._Darmstadt_Wiss._Buchges._Ver%C3%B6ffentlichungen_der_Forschungsstelle_Ludwigsburg_der_Universit%C3%A4t_Stuttgart_12_ https://www.academia.edu/1391997/B%C3%B6hler_Jochen_2006_Auftakt_zum_Vernichtungskrieg._Die_Wehrmacht_in_Polen_1939._Frankfurt_am_Main_Fischer_Die_Zeit_des_Nationalsozialismus_ http://www.info-pc.home.pl/whatfor/baza/zbrodnie_index.htm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnVOi22cw80 https://www.ghwk.de/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf-wannsee/engl/goering.pdf https://www.ghwk.de/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf-wannsee/engl/protokol.pdf You can tell what you want but you can't hide the truth.
1
@CruelDwarf Then you never use proper sources. There are transcripts of of this messages. You can find it even on Wikipedia.
1
@nuradinsadigi9148 Poland also have the same kind of treaty with USSR. Any suggestion that Poland was in allience with USSR? You just use old quotes from Soviet propaganda. Yes Poland annexed land from Czechoslovakia, but in any way in cooperation with Hitler. There were no pact about that land between Poland and Third Reich! Only between Poland and Czechoslovakia! Yes that was mistake, but in any way like NAZI-SOVIET divide of Europe in 1939-41. Poland have Non-Agression Pacts with Germans and USSR, both were broken by other side not Poland. Ribbentropp-Molotov was only in name Non-Agression Pact , because in the secret part you have partition of independent states! Poland, Finland, Baltic States and Romania! That was classical aggression and imperialism! Not close to non-aggression pact! Poland gain teritory from Chechoslovakian government by ultimatum. When ealier Polish government suggest help against Geramans Chechoslovakia refuse, becuase they still belive in France and USSR. Soviets and Germans use aggression and war to spread own influence. Then you should know that Polsih government REFUSE TO PATICIPATE IN INVASION AND ALLIANCE AGAINST USSR! And in the same Stalin help Hitler invade Poland! And you claim that Poland should let Red Army on own terittory as a help? No one want "help" like that!
1
@ВалБал-н3й There were no secret protocols, everyone knows that was against German aggression! That why when 17th September Stalin invade Poland no one declare war against him!
1
@ВалБал-н3й Ok show me that "secret" protocols? When in start British Government warn Geramans against invading Poland! Were is this secret? That was only against Germany, that was one of reasons why Stalin (because he knows the terms of this agreement!) wait with aggression to 17th september! He want to have propaganda shield, to say " Poland dosen't exist anymore", what was a lie. All that spinning facts is serving to whitewash Stalin actions before 1941!
1