Comments by "Horatio82" (@horatio8213) on "Did the Soviet Union EVER Recover from WW2?" video.

@mattobermiller5041 They have something called internal debt and corruption is destroying that country. Putin is dissaster in long term for Russia. China are dominating on east parts of Russia, it is few decades and Russia will lose Siberia and East to China.
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@Rens Victor In 1930's? Because most military factories were created in 1930's or build to fight Germans on base of existing industry. Whole Stalin's planned economy was created as a base to made Red Army as a biggest and most modern war machine, not for benefit of soviet people. Just like in Hitler's economy there were no balance in militarny spending and consumption. Soviet system always need external enemy to keep it alive. How is that fault of USA?
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@bakters Where he claim that about tanks? He just said that tanks are not only fighting tanks. And specialization in only anti-tank role is stiupid. Little but significant difference from your claim, but much more accurate then your understanding. And guns like M3 or F-34 were good enough to destroy Pz III and Pz IV. And USSR from 1940's use communist puppet states economy to benefit itself. You conclusion is wrong in this. Improvment was not that significant and not a mark of a success of soviet economy.
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Capitalism work just fine, to moment where government try to exploit it in some stiupid way...Like corporationism or other stiupid idea. And socialism never work in practice... Eliminate human greed.... dude you are going this road to one place, concetration camp.
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Dwarov 1 You again? With propaganda numbers, straigh from communist propaganda. Lenin's and Stalin's regime or later were responsiable for milllions killed in terror and starvations. Mass graves in Kharkov area or other part of USSR are not enough evidence for you?
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Русское море Yeah you know what is biggest source of russophobia? Russia itself. Te way likke Russia treat a "freinds" made frendship with Russia suicide. We can compare how USSR and Russia exploit whole parts of Europe. How they look in 1989 and how they look now. Even Bielarus do everything to not become a part of Russia. Or how Putin treat Chechnya and steal Crimea.
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Русское море Because USSR with Hitler from 1939 invade or annexed many countries. Poland, Finland, Baltic States, Romania. And dear Comrad NATO was created to defend free Europe from Soviet invasion. And how USSR "help" and "liberate" we see when USSR died and freedome back to this countries. And now they rebiuld from soviet "liberation" and "help". Thx you help arranged with Hitler was enough.
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Русское море Tell that Chechens and Syria civilians...
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@bakters Simply, you claim something without any evidence. Is on you to prove he said that.
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@СергейРублев-т7я All old lies of Soviet regime... You help so many people that no of them do not want again your help.
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@СергейРублев-т7я I am old enough to remeber of friuts of soviet help. Poverty bring by socialism was stagering. Work of two generation was lose because communist ideology was failing. We are great full for valor of simple soviet soldiers. But we hate communism that make as slaves like did it earlier with that all poor Soviets. Thye died because Stalin dreamed about empire and he build this dream on bones of milions cooperating with Hitler. And I do not claim that caputalism is the best system, I claim that is still the best existing. Facacism, nazism and communism were much worse.
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@СергейРублев-т7я Go to Venezuela or North Korea and taste socialism. And what more evidence you need if you know what was Stalin's demands in 1939 and 1940 to Hitler? Or what Stalin did whit part of Europe he enslave?
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Dwarov 1 "Reports from the west, NKVD reports, witnesses confirming what I said and basic history is not enough evidence for you?" You mean reports like Burdenko CAomission falsified to blame Germans for Katyn Massacre. Or in other way reports that prove tha NKVD killed this officers? Mass graves with thousends of communist victimes are not evidence that you give numbers are to small. Just some examples of that material evidence. https://meduza.io/en/feature/2018/08/31/a-mass-grave-from-the-soviet-era-resurfaces-as-a-modern-day-russian-political-scandal https://www.dw.com/en/russia-victims-of-stalin-era-purges-unearthed-in-siberia/a-51058957 https://www.sciencespo.fr/mass-violence-war-massacre-resistance/fr/document/kurapaty-1937-1941-nkvd-mass-killings-soviet-belarus.html "Lenin's and Stalin's regime or later responsible for vast improvements in quality of life, soviet mass industrialization, economic boom and the end to the famines and goods shortages of the Russian Empire." Yeah so succesfull that New Economic Policy (NEP) rescue communism for years (1921-28) in Soviet Russia/USSR. But Uncle Joe starve to death millions to made rest a slaves in industrial military power. Nice improvment. You understand that in USSR in Stalin's era worker can't travel or change work without Party decision. Nice paradise, where if you are late three times to work you land in Gulag. Pesant in Star Russia in 1914 had more rights than soviet worker in 1937! And how looks like in reality Gulag you should read biographic book A World Apart: The Journal of a Gulag Survivor by Gustaw Herling-Grudziński. He land ther thx to soviet terror against Poles and barly survive it. Eye witness, not your fantasy. You live in world that USSR didn't failed in 1991? It failed hard on every level.
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Dwarov 1 I live in 1991 and I remember how dilussion Party members and KGB officers try form a junta to capure power and keep USSR running. But in this time USSR was just zombie keep in life on last legs. Economical bancrupt with republics fighting for freedome from Moscov. Empty shops, protesting population and communist politician that to get power dismantle this corps of fallen empire. Do not make fool from yourself. USSR was disaster for nations living in it. "Yea almost as bad as the Vietnam war massacres causing 3 million civilian deaths https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes" And what I do not defend USA for that. But for years USSR lie that Germans killed that Poles, not NKVD. But later archeological diggs and NKVD own documentation proof that they did it for Stalin's and Beria's order. You want to claim that not NKVD killed that Poles? "You mean reports like Burdenko CAomission falsified to blame Germans for Katyn Massacre. Or in other way reports that prove tha NKVD killed this officers?" No, but reports like the Reiter's report which confirmed that citizens in the USSR ate more than in Germany, France or the UK for example "Mass graves with thousends of communist victimes are not evidence that you give numbers are to small. Just some examples of that material evidence. https://meduza.io/en/feature/2018/08/31/a-mass-grave-from-the-soviet-era-resurfaces-as-a-modern-day-russian-political-scandal https://www.dw.com/en/russia-victims-of-stalin-era-purges-unearthed-in-siberia/a-51058957 https://www.sciencespo.fr/mass-violence-war-massacre-resistance/fr/document/kurapaty-1937-1941-nkvd-mass-killings-soviet-belarus.html" "Yeah so succesfull that New Economic Policy (NEP) rescue communism for years (1921-28) in Soviet Russia/USSR." Lmao you mean the same policy which never became active in the USSR and even the proposed period ended in 1922? Fucking idiot xD "But Uncle Joe starve to death millions to made rest a slaves in industrial military power. Nice improvment." Lol, "starved". Yes you are right he starved them to create his beloved child, hevy industry. "That explains the US dustbowl and the imports of soviet food for 7 years xD. Slaves my ass. The USSR had an 8 hour work day. The USA had 12. The USA had state funded minimum wage, pansions and healthcare syste. The USA does not until this day. So much better than the USSR, right xD?" When USSR export food it was done by cost of soviet pesants. Stalin knew that selling that was death sentence for soviet pesants. "You understand that in USSR in Stalin's era worker can't travel or change work without Party decision." Yes you could. My grandfather did not work for the party or government and worked in 4 different cities and under 6 different jobs. Nice try. Did you know that people in the USA could not even afford medical treatment and could not afford to change jobs due to lack of worker's protection laws? They can't do so today except if you work for a government institution." "Nice paradise, where if you are late three times to work you land in Gulag. " HAHAHAH, source xD? Never heard so much bullshit in my life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag" In new law created by Stalin from 12 June 1940 for beeing late to work 3 times you were send to Gulag. In the same time worker was forbiden to change job without Party authorisation. Travel was impossiable without special document which was provided only with Party agreement. Yeah I think that USA was not that bad in comparision to USSR. And level of life standars in USA was always higher than in USSR. Even when leaders of USSR claim that as a fact. Plus 8 hour work day was fiction. Beating norms, cretaing new records that was reality. Try to not agree, Gulag was waiting for you. Not without reason Orwell hated USSR under Stalin rule. "Pesant in Star Russia in 1914 had more rights than soviet worker in 1937!" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/labour_movements_trade_unions_and_strikes_russian_empire https://www.ucis.pitt.edu/nceeer/1982-624-11-Madison.pdf" Yes that Tsar system was so horriable that Stalin many times run from prisons and nobody was trying kill Lenin when he was on emigration! We know how Stalin kill his enemies in USSR and outside, like Trotsky or White Army Officers. Pesants could travel and work in cities. With reforms of PM Stolypin Russia was going to be industrial power greater than Germany not later than 1920. War and revolution make it impossiable. "And how looks like in reality Gulag you should read biographic book A World Apart: The Journal of a Gulag Survivor by Gustaw Herling-Grudziński. He land ther thx to soviet terror against Poles and barly survive it. Eye witness, not your fantasy. " He literally confirms what I said and completely debunks your brainwashed US fantasy bs xD. Try reading "The Gulag Archipelego" and you'll see how full of shit you are." You probaly never read this book. It is much more harder accusation than Solzenicyn's books. Gustaw Herling-Grudziński show truth of soviet force labour system and high death ratio in this camps. And he wasn't only one. Many foreginers land in Gulags but survived to wrote about that "paradise on Earth". And official reason why he was arrest were that his last name in russian sounds like Goering and he was by NKVD German spy! Really nice logic. You will spin, lie and made stiupd claims. But fact is that "great USSR" died under absurdal ideology and economics.
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Dwarov 1 ""Yeah so succesfull that New Economic Policy (NEP) rescue communism for years (1921-28) in Soviet Russia/USSR." Lmao you mean the same policy which never became active in the USSR and even the proposed period ended in 1922? Fucking idiot xD" You are living in alternative reality. NEP was official soviet economical policy in 1921-28 before Stalin's industralization! You are just stiupid or missinform.
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Dwarov 1 ""And what I do not defend USA for that. But for years USSR lie that Germans killed that Poles, not NKVD. But later archeological diggs and NKVD own documentation proof that they did it for Stalin's and Beria's order. You want to claim that not NKVD killed that Poles? " Literally when did I deny that? You are trying to prove how terrible the USSR was with one single event which killed 22k people. Following your braindead logic, the USA was even worse than the USSR. How do 2 days speak for 69 years of soviet history? The USSR admitted that they did it after Stalin died." Hhahahahaha. USSR admit that that was done by NKVD as early as 1991! Not after Stalin death. Even today there are idiots that claim that was done by Germans! I also lived in the USSR and no such thing ever happened. There was a coup which wanted to return Stalinism to the USSR and prevent Gorbachev's reforms. The people were literally against capitalism. "Economical bancrupt with republics fighting for freedome from Moscow." The USSR's economy kept growing faster than ever and was still on global 2nd place. The other republics were never fighting for independence. Even Ukraine wanted to be part of the USSR. "Empty shops, protesting population and communist politician that to get power dismantle this corps of fallen empire. Do not make fool from yourself. USSR was disaster for nations living in it. " The shops were full. Thats a fact you'll have to live with. Speaking from experience. There were no protests. There was no KGB coup or whatever. Don't make a fool from yourself- The USSR was the best thing that could happened for the nations and the people in it. Let news talk truth to your lies: 1991 in Lithuania: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mIw-BwaaVk 1989, Baltic States: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx3N6F-DqxI Moscow 1991, you full shops: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8LtQhIQ2AE Tallin 1991: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKVhrzhAI8I Yanayev putsch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtNyT7ljPz8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjmjoDp1YSo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yuc86j7e414 "And official reason why he was arrest were that his last name in russian sounds like Goering and he was by NKVD German spy! Really nice logic." More made up bullshit you can't prove. Also, by the time he got inprisoned, the NKVD did not exist anymore." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_World_Apart_(book) Book contain live expirience of author from 1940 to 1942! NKVD was running soviet terror..... ""You will spin, lie and made stiupd claims. But fact is that "great USSR" died under absurdal ideology and economics." LMAO do you even read your own bullshit xD? Fact is that the USSR was doing great in the 80s due to it's combined socialist and capitalist policies and outclassed the west in many categories. Did you know that in the 80s the USSR had elections and a multi-party system? Or is this not mentioned in your US bs propaganda" There were no other parties than communist party. Only so called "independent candidates" could take part, but they have no real power in system. You really knew nothing about history of USSR! Do I need provide more evidence for you lies?
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@HD-uh7nj Still the same lie. Weather,, oo communism.. Hole nation terrorized and starved on he gun barrel. Ad strange case that there were np drought or famine in other neiboring coutries. Welsh reporter Gareth Jones smuggle photos and relations about it. There is many more accounts. You can't make it dissapear.
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@Erich Kirk In 1930's Stalin knew thaat Hitler will invade him? Bullshit. Then read about how Red Army with more tanks than all other countries in the world! Once industralization was done, military production was main soviet goal. Not civilian sector. Main industrial sector was build in such a way to place military production on first place. Any factory in USSR can be build without central oversight to be place in war production.
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@americanannalist5053 I do not claim that TIK said such a stiupid thing about tanks. His words.again was twisted without proper context.
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@bakters Then do not claim nothing if you do not have material to support your claim or time and will to find it. Thta is pure scientific work, TIK do it and you should do it the sam to prove him wrong. Everything is based on time and work.
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@bakters And find his video is easy if you know which you are looking for.
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@bakters You just prove that TIK was right, because he in both statements put point on importance of anti-tank and kiling soft target. Not like you claim that he do not understand role of tank gun. Light tank is broad category. It depend on army and time it use that machine. But in late WW2 they were use mainly to scouting role. And some of that tanks were even armed only in MG or small caliber gun. On case of M3/M5 tanks some units remove turrets to make them a smaller target. Going to soviet economy you claim something without proper sources. TIK bring his sources and his understanding of facts looks proper.
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@bakters TIK in his statement about tank guns basicly claim AT is important,but still soft target are primary target. Tank as a system is one of many system to destroy enemy tanks. That is his words, you even quote them! I do not see where he dismiss AT role. Maybe you do not understand of context of Matilda II. Tank with great AT gun but without any way to attack soft targets (only MG is poor tool for that). That is the context. What you need more to understand. About TIK discussion with Moran I do not know the context. But in some situation AT cannons is better solution than tank. But that depend on context. And you do not provide any name or link to your "source". That make your claim just claim, nothing more.
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@bakters "@Horatio82 Oh, I forgot the "You didn't show me the sources, I never asked for!" accusation..." No, just simple fact, you claim that you have source, but not show it before. Then using simple logic iI ask about it. "Reassessing the Standard of Living in the Soviet Union: An Analysis Using Archival and Anthropometric Data Elizabeth Brainerd "Four different measures of population health show a consistent and large improvement between approximately 1940 and 1969: child height, birth weight, adult height and infant mortality all improved significantly during this period. These four biological measures of the standard of living also corroborate the evidence of some deterioration in living conditions beginning around 1970, when infant and adult mortality was rising and child height and birth weight stopped increasing and in some regions began to decline." And that is your capital evidence that TIK mIssunderstand economics and policy in USSR? You understand that in the same time whole industrialized world came with great jump in medicine and standard of medical care. In comparision USSR wasn't any way behind in this proces. Plus great role in rebuilding of USSR economy was done by using war Lend Lease program and United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration to 1947. Exploitation of satelite states by USSR also give aditional resources to USSR. There is so many other elements that shape this field that are not connected directly with rebuilding of economy of USSR. But in your view this single part of data make TIK thesis false. Also data itself as usual in USSR could be altered for many reasons. Soviets just love data manipulation to prove that they are on the right side of history. Somewhere in my home is a economical book from 1956 that was basicly bunch of nonsense about whole spectrum of standars that made communist economy better than capitalism. But in reality data was altered and manipulated for propaganda reasons. That is why you need be very carefull in atacking TIK thesis on this field when data could be problematic. TIK himself many times argue that soviet data are not completeor contradicts itself. Next problem is population crisis that struck USSR after WW2. Whit great lose of men in reproduction age numbers of birth was much lower than in other countries. Whit less childrens even with less resources you can uplift their state. Basicly to 1980's diffeence between sexes in USSR were dramatic and even today demographics are still big problem of Russia. You mix two set of data and try that way made TIK thesis wrong. I rather see proper work on TIK side with multiply sources and crosschecking that in use of one set of data and building your claim on it. Your argumentation do not look like well analised.
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@bakters " bakters Wyróżniona odpowiedź bakters 2 godziny temu @Horatio82 TIK wrote: "One, your tanks need to be able to fight enemy tanks, because they may run into them and there's no guarantee there will be a friendly AT gun around to help. [emphasis mine] " Basically, "Idunno, just in case." He truly believed, at least back then, that AT guns are for fighting tanks, while tanks should just act as mobile artillery. There are people who think that tanks mostly shoot other tanks, TIK recognized them to be wrong, so the opposite is obviously true, isn't it?" You still miss the point. Example was Matilda II in North Africa. Tank with 2pdr gun (40 mm) which was good in AT role, but was weak in killing targets like German AT guns or infantry. For that you need more that 40 mm shell. That is why there was a need for bigger gun that could destroy targets like that and be good as a AT because "there's no guarantee there will be a friendly AT gun around to help". It is so simple. Tank need a gun to kill infantry and other soft targets. AT gun is usless in this without proper ammunitiuon, great example is KwK 42 from Panther tank. Great in killing tanks but very weak in killing infantry. And in WW2 AT guns were one of the bigger tank killers, at Kursk soviet AT guns were more effective than tanks. "There are people who think that tanks mostly shoot other tanks, TIK recognized them to be wrong, so the opposite is obviously true, isn't it?" No at all, TIK said that you need both this atributes but in balance shifted to support role, but with AT making killing enemy tanks possiable. You wrongly think that he underestimated AT values in tank gun, but he don't. He recognize this and place this role as important, but second in tank arrament. Whole this is pointeless because you missunderstand TIK. And he stated that clear as it could be possiable. You basicly do not understand of context of usage of Matilda II and this tank as a example. And tanks mostly shoot to other targets than enemy tanks. Armored warfare is much more complex that only tank vs tank. "Actually, Chieftain claims that you mostly fire your MG, but whatever." No he is not. Nicolas Moran said about MG as a suppersion (not killing) tanker tool. Main gun with proper ammo is main weapon to kill targets om battlefield! Great fabular example is in scene from movie Fury when M4 tanks suppress with MG's German infantry and open way for infantry. Main targets are killed by gun, just like enemy AT guns and infantry in fox holes. MG just keep them suppressed. The same is with air force. As a killer of tanks is not that effective. But it destroying logistic, suppres movment of tanks. Because if you do not hide your tank in case of air attack, in the end air attack will destroy your tank. But when you are hiding you can't move. Role of air strike was rather slow down moving enemy, tanks, AT guns and even artillery were much more effectie in eliminating enemy tanks. Here is video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t2cRZTv14o That is evidence that rather you made wrong assumption even with presented data.
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@bakters "That is total nonsense! The population was doing better with every year even during the war. Think about it. The war was less of a problem than Stalin's purges, holodomor, kulak purges and lysenkoism." USSR lose main food provider, Ukraine and Soviets made it better than in 1940? You are serious? There is so many accounts of starvation and food shortage in war time and in the first years after war that soviet offical data are fake. Not mention devastation to live stock and farming populations. You need men workin as farmers to produce food! Men which were mostly killed in war! In 1946-47 struck famine, there were no "less of a problem" as you claim! "He did say that the Soviets were simply faking it all, while the food production went down and didn't reach 1940 level even by 1953. " And there are reason to argue that they even get to levels from 1913 in food production!
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@bakters Dude even Putin is claiming that there was no Holodomor! You really do not know what you writing.
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@bakters "@Horatio82 "Putin is claiming that there was no Holodomor!" Yet the data you have contested clearly show it very much was real." Dude ....sarcasm.... That is problem with Soviet and Russian sources, they still claim wild things about USSR. Like this myth that USSR was able produce more food than before German invasion and keep high standards for civilian population! Be serious and think for 5 minutes. How country that most industrial and agrarian centers from pre-war time was relockated or occiupied by Germans. How when Germans capture Ukraine USSR could increse output of food? That is supreme bullshit! The same is in post war years with reeduced men population, destroyed infrastrucure and extreminated live stock. Countries less destroyed by war suffer famine in this time. But USSR magicly overcome all that? Time to check sources and read some first hand realtions!
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@bakters Poland didn't create colective farming system in that years. They did it much later. Which mean that prodcution was on quite good level of quality, but still they need years to rebuild agriculture. And I know how was reality in Poland, because I am from Poland. Then do not try to sell me praise for communism. ""How when Germans capture Ukraine USSR could increse output of food?" Holodomor is an Ukrainian word, not Russian. It was them who starved to death. Among the most fertile lands in all of Europe.." Starved by Stalin and Ukraine was main provider of grain to USSR. Then lose of Ukraine have to strike soviet grain production! Even Kazachstan with its production was not enough to replace lose of Ukraine! How Soviets could replace that lose? The couldn't..... And that is problem with your claim about war rise production of grain! "So the loss of Ukraine very well could mean that per capita food consumption didn't go down, or even improved over time." Ukraine was and still is food basket that could feed whole Europe, then do not make me laught to compare food production to food consumption in Ukraine! Without Ukraine grain production in USSR couldn't rise to replace lose of Ukraine! Nohing you claim do not conect with colectivization damages for food production. War and post war difficulties in soviet economy. I do not know what propaganda you read, but that is just not make sence.
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@bakters Chłopie w latach wojny i do 1950 ZSRR zmagało się z wojennymi zniszczeniami. Kolektywizacja zniszczyła społecznie i ekonomicznie rolnictwo. Nawet kolonialna polityka ZSRR wobec satelitów nie dawała tak dużych efektów by ratować radzieckie społeczeństwo przed głodem. Do śmierci Stalin forsował inwestycje w przemysł ciężki i zbrojeniowy. Odbiło to się czkawką w całym bloku w latach 1953-56. Dopiero po śmierci Wodza sytuacja powoli się normowała. Tylko że to nie znaczy że ZSRR się odbudował po wojnie. Ani ekonomia, ani społeczeństwo w ZSRR nawet po 1956 roku nie zdołało odrobić wojennych strat. Problem jest taki że pomiędzy 1940 a 1965 masz praktycznie nowe pokolenie żyjące na gruzach powojennej ekonomii. Może i w latach 1960tych sytuacja się poprawiła. Jednak ine bez powodu lata od wojny do 1956 roku nie należały do szczególnie produktywnych w ZSRR. Odbudowa trwała, ale jako całość demogrrafia i ekonomia ZSRR nigdy nie odrobiły strat otrzymanych w drugiej wojnie. To nie jest także standard się nie poprawiał, tylko że ten standard w innych krajach wzrastał szybciej.
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@bakters Dane szacunkowe CIA z okresu zimnej wojny względem wielkości gospodarki ZSRR okazały się mocno przeszcowane w górę. Gospodarka ZSRR była znacznie mniejszą niż nawet szacowało CIA. W kwestii odbudowy ekonomii to nie tylko kwestia odbudowy do poziomu poprzedzającego wojnę. Ale także to jak ten czas zachamowal rozwój potencjału. Dla porównani zobacz jak Japonia podniosła się z klęski po wojnie i jak stała się ekonomicznym gigantem. To jest właśnie różnica, ZSRR nie tylko ledwie odbudował swoją gospodarkę po latach. Ale nie był w stanie dalej jej rozwijać. Stąd późniejsze zalamanie i krach lat 80tych. Popatrz też jak ZSRR zerowal na demoludach.
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@СергейРублев-т7я Yeah USSR was winnig.. First as a Hitler allies and later with help from UK and USA. Nice win when you lose so much.....
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@СергейРублев-т7я 1.Congo became socialist paradise later with the same effect. You take wrong example Comrad. 2.-3. Stalin have no rights to take that teritorries. In 1917 Lenin declare a self determination rule and he declare that all annexation of Taar as illegal. And in the same time try conquere the same lands he declare free from russian Imperialist. R-M Pact, Yalta and Postdam where Stalin without asking any nations declare them part of his sphere of influence?
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@СергейРублев-т7я 1) Oh I see that when soviet regime was weak it reapects rights of neibors and argue for peace. But when gather strenght star acting like bandit and came to agreement with nazi to enslave other nations. Nice explenation of soviet double speak. 2) For first right to own independence and right to elect government. Right to use own language and create own culture. Not suppresed by external soviet government! And mean place like Baltic States or Ukraine and Bielarus ( which today suffer from rusification and force relocations of population). From 1940 Baltic States were treat like colony by communist. You know that today ethnic strucure was created by planned removal of local communieties and colonization of mass of ethnic Russians. The same was done in West part of Ukraine and Bielarus, removal of Polish majorieties from cities and repllacing them by Russians. Deportation of Tatars from Crimea. List is long.
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@СергейРублев-т7я USSR was country with monoparty political system. Form and procedures of elections make them farce, that was not even close to any real democratic procedings. Communist party falsified them all what deny population of real representation. And claiming that there were no enough workers in Baltic States is basicly exccuse to mask program of sovietisation and russification of this republics. Not mention mass executions and removal of no-russian population from there. I ignore your claim of Tatars collaboration because there is no evidence to support that so called collaboration, only fault of Tataes was that they were under German occupqtion. This deportation was typical product of Stalin's paranoi and his fears. And put claim on Curzon line is ridiciouls becausee that is creation of british politician that never understand history of this part of the world. Polish ethnic presence were there from 14th century long befor Russia conquere this territory. Lviv was major Polish city for 400 yera befor 20th century. Many such place exist to Soviet ethnic cleasing this lands in 1940's. Take some work and read Stalin's speeches after WW2 when he put emphasis on leasing role of Russia s in Soviet state. To today Russians belive that Ukrainians and Bielaeusians are not real nations and they are part of Russian nation with regionalny dialects. Schools in whole USSR force russian language and official language of USSR was russian. Other language and culture only on paper were tret the same. One of my partner was Ukrainian girl and she alway tell me how ukrainian was pushed from official use and banned from culture even in late USSR.
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@СергейРублев-т7я "1. A political party is part of the social class, and the USSR had a classless society, so it does not need a multi-party system. Find Stalin's interview for Roy Howard on March 1, 1936 to find out the details." Facts are different, USSR never became classless.... even if whole communisty party claim that. You can belive in utopia, but that never happened. USSR society still was build like hiererchy. Party members on top, thats why they sell lie about clasless state. And one party system is totalitarism, people can have different opinion even in "clasless society". "2. Paranoia is a myth. The Bolsheviks were pragmatists." Do not dissagree with that. But Stalin as a man probably was paranoid, I read in interview with old revolutionists that Lenin ordered evaluation, but after his death Stalin destroy documentation. Probably he also kill his wife, because her death was very suspicious and claimed as suicide. There is too many relations about his behavior that points to heavy paranoia. "3. Only some Russian nationalists say that the Ukrainian and Belarusian nations do not exist. This is not the opinion of the entire Russian nation. The Bolsheviks were internationalists and supported the culture of all their nations. Some Russian nationalists even accuse the Bolsheviks of artificially creating the Ukrainian nation. That is why I do not take your words seriously about the fact that the Bolsheviks suppressed all nations except the Russian (lol). The USSR was never a Russian nation state, but it used Russian workers to improve production indicators in other non-Russian republics (not only the Baltic states, but also Asia, etc.)." I do not claim that Russians weren't suppress. Facts are that russian language and culture were forced on other nations in USSR and satelite states. You can put tons of documents claim in official language that every nationality was equal. But that is no connected with reality. As Orwell wrote, All animals are equal. But some animals are equal more. That was nothing new, from 19th century russian nationalism was used to oppress other nations. Even in geopgraphy you can see how bolsheviks were internatinalist. There were plaves like Vipuri that become Выборг/Wyborg just to remove finish name! The same with Königsberg/Калининград/Kaliningrad. https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1439&context=mjil https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZH9nkBOxrZQC&pg=PA177&lpg=PA177&dq=how+soviets+use+russification+for+own+goals&source=bl&ots=sgw8s87tK6&sig=ACfU3U1umo2ueAcYLLSpd1x21c8nwonCZg&hl=pl&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiWvaP1nqfoAhWgURUIHXlDAZwQ6AEwDnoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=how%20soviets%20use%20russification%20for%20own%20goals&f=false "4. You need to find the transcript of the 10th Congress of the Bolshevik Party and read it carefully. Stalin says there that the urban population of many European countries is a legacy of colonialism. That is why the Poles were deported from Lvov etc." Curious because many times Soviets do one thing and claim othervise. Simple examples: Poland and USSR had Non-Agression Pact from 1932 which was still in action at 23rd August 1939 and at 17th September 1939. When Molotov sign pact with Ribbentrop USSR without notification to Polish side break in secrecy this document. Also that was betrayal of Riga Peace Treaty between Poland nad USSR. Next in 1942 was sign Treaty Sikorski-Mayski that declare restoration to Poland lands taken by USSR in 1939 with cooperation with Hitler in R-M Pact! But in the end Stalin take by force this land breaking his own treaties. Then for me any soviet declaration have no value, more than paper that this declaration cover. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Riga https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Polish_Non-Aggression_Pact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorski%E2%80%93Mayski_agreement Then I do not belive in any peacefull and official declaration of Stalin and communist party of USSR. Because everytime they broke this declarations. What ios the point belive in any of soviet lie to be lied again? Also there were no such thing like as you cliam, polish colonisation, that was for centuries land which was part of polish state. From 1387 to 1772 was in polish possesion, and again from 1920 to 1939 was part of Poland! City was in majority polish but was taken with brealking by Stalin and USSR many treaties and force relocation of Poles and some Ukrainians! USSR hve no right t this city, historicly or geographicly it was Polish city! It is one more crime done by USSR. Thamks to history now is in independent Ukraine that do not want to join again to Russia and want to be independent state. "5. Yes, the official state language of the USSR was Russian, but non-Russian republics had their own regional languages, which were enshrined in the constitution. You do not need to use the opinion of Russian or Ukrainian nationalists about Soviet politics because they seek to rewrite history. Russian nationalists say that the Bolsheviks gave too many privileges to non-Russian nations in the USSR to the detriment of the Russian. But Ukrainian nationalists say that the Bolsheviks used the Russians to suppress their national culture. Both options are false. You need to find the originals of Soviet documents and party meetings." Take a look on higer parts. Do I have to write it again. Officialy USSR was paradise of equality. In reality was totaliterian and later authoritaeriaian state. Constiusion, declarations and conference mean nothing if reality is different.
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@СергейРублев-т7я Totalitarism was created by Plato. Marx wrote his whole ideology around this model of governing. Do you claim that USSR wasn't marxist? And because of examples of Third Reich and USSR totalitarism is viewed as a disastrous.
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@СергейРублев-т7я 2.His second wife Nadieshna, she killed herself (official version) or she was killed by Stalin. You really do not know that? And you rather mean people that are seen by communist as enemies are killed. Trotsky was enemy of Stalin not communism. But still he was murdered. The same NKVD murdered many socialists and communist fighting in Spanish Civil War.
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@СергейРублев-т7я 3. There we is many sucsessfull countries in history that were multilanguage. Switzland today. Even in times of Tsars Russian Empire contain lands with multilanguage official status Then you are wrong.
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@СергейРублев-т7я Fins do not want to lose own territory because Stalin paranoia and imperialism demand it. Then USSR invade Finland. Yep... No nationalism here..... SARCASM. As a International, not nationalistic USSR take German land, remove inhabitans, change name for Russian sounding.... Yeah nonationalism again.... Hahahhaha. SARCASM AGAIN.
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@СергейРублев-т7я 5./6.) Poland refuse to German demand to invade USSR as a allied of Third Reich. And that was in line of Riga Peace Treaty and Non-Aggression Pact with USSR. And what Stalin did, he demand to let his armies to Poland as a guarantee of his "help". When Poland decline, when in the same TIME Hitler was panicing and start changeing his plans, Stalin give him a option.. And that is war begun. Without R-M Trety would be just a War between isolated Hitler and UK, France and Poland. But with help of Stalin, Hitler exit from that isolation. And even Curzon Line in one of variants give Lviv to Poland! What is without any meaning because in Riga Treaty,. Non Agression Polish-Soviet Treaty and Sikorski-Maysky Treaty confirmed that USSR resign from any claim to this lands. Then what is a point to belive in honest of Soviet intentions? Because material evidence make it clear.
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@СергейРублев-т7я 7./8. Churchill also said that to beat Hitler he would praise and work even with the Devil. And he do it, but thaat was not a Belzebub, but Stalin himself. You many times use terms Stalin/comminist declare/belive. I am rather interested what they did. Because that is a real picture what is propaganda and what is reality. I know official Soviet documentation, claims and propaganda. But I also.know examples of internal or secret documents of soviet state. And too many times official were just lies. Then I rather point to facts and not to belive in propaganda. After taking Poland's East part in 1939 Soviet killed thousends of Polish POW. When in the same time they claim that Germans do it. And reality was that NKVD on personal decision of Stalin and his helpers murdered them. Then how I can belive in good will or honest of USSR when that was common practice.
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@СергейРублев-т7я Poland was first participant in WW2. Emigration government was recognise around the world. From 1942 even by USSR. Poland is one of creators of UN. After fall of France Poland have second arm forces after UK fighting with Hitler. You present strange vision of history, non accepted in majority even in USSR. And reading your claims that all aggression in 1939-1941 done by USSR were just protective mesaures is just bullshit. For one aggression on independent states is stil aggression. Annexation is also sign of communist imperialism. You present ideology that claim that USSR have right to seize lands in own interes not regarding any treaty which it is a participant. War, annexation and co operation with Hitler to protect from Hitler! Nicly done, 1941 show how communist were prepared. USSR not for a moment respect own official position. No respect for independent nations and they fight with Hitler. No soviet promises was worth nothing. Polish soldiers and resistant members that were seen by USSR as enemies were falsly accused as nazi collaborators! And Baltic States were from start taken by USSR in line of collaboration with Hitler. Wholeyour post could be easly change to apology for nazism. They use the same imperial logic, might made right. But that did not serv well to USSR. In 1991 reality just end this experiment. Shame that take so long and cost milllions of dead. Soviets were the same Imperialist like colonial empires or nazi or fascist.
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@СергейРублев-т7я In 1939 Germans were isolated and even when they want start war with Poland and qin it that mean they were be blockaded from trade. Stalin had just wait aand in early 1941Hitler would run out of oil, food and other resources. But Stalin sell thaat to Hitler in enough quantity to keep Germans fighting. That is not preparing for German attack. That is keeping them fighting. That is why whole so calles buying time is only lie. Stalin could choke Germany economy by not trading with Hitler.
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UK, France and Poland have few plans for war. In stategic sence Poland would lose every time, our job was buying time for UK and France. When Germans win in Poland they used most of reservs of war Materials. Only way to replace them was international trade. But that trade in most cases was blockes by Royal Navy and Marine National. Even with Romanian oil Germans would be doomed. Hitler want to attack at West in atum 1939. But generals block that idea because fight in Poland deplete German materiał base. What happen between autum 1939 and spring 1940? Stalin sell great quantity war materials to Hitler. Hitler campanigs from 1940 were possiable only with economicalan military help from Stalin. And USSR pay the price for it. And do not forget how important to soviet victory was war that UK, USA and other allied were participation around the world. USSR like Italy start as a German allies, but end in Allied camp.
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@СергейРублев-т7я Best soviet source to prove Soviet plans? R-M Pact with secret protocols. Soviet demands for Germany from 1940. All of that prive that Stalin was interested in gaing new teritorries by conquest or extortion. And no one blame Stalin for self interes action but his fault was help to Hitler with starting the war. Aggression on Poland, Finland and other aggressive action was taken asa part of coordinated actions agreed with Hitler. Stalin is second person after Hitler who should be blame for WW2. Even Mussolini was against war in 1939!
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@СергейРублев-т7я "The Soviet General Staff never considered Soviet politics in 1939-1941 an act of aggression. This is the opinion of Eastern Europe after the collapse of socialism and the rewriting of history, but this is not the opinion of the USSR on which it officially relies. Try to show me Soviet sources who say that the USSR was planning to "occupy and enslave Europe." Soviet historiography said that the Red Army liberated Bessarabia from the Romanian occupation, western Ukraine from the Polish occupation, and the Baltic states from the pro-fascist dictatorship. Thus, we should always use the opinion of the government that pursues its policy, and not the opinion of their enemies." I will give you some quote and documents from history and maybe you will grasp how much you "opinion" is rewrithing history. Because you should ad that before 1989-1991 any criticism of USSR was treat as a crime and was punished by prison. In todays Russia criticism of USSR is still punished by government! "One blow from the German army and another from the Soviet army put an end to this ugly product of Versailles." Vyacheslav Molotov — Statement after the fall of Poland, as quoted in Legitimacy and Force (1988) by Jeane J. Kirkpatrick, p. 49 Official stand of Molotov confirming German- Soviet invasion on Poland! Not mention of separate action, it is clear that is confirming a fact of military invasion that was coordinated! In 1920's Soviets prepared cooperation with Weimar Republic against Poland. Long before Hitler and Stalin. Rapallo Treaty was in first place targeting Poland as main enemy for Soviets and Germans. First time was talked about partition of Poland between Soviets and Germany. https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gQfUB0CXBO4C&pg=PA302&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false And maybe Ribentrop-Molotov Pact is not enough evidence. Specialy one of the parts from secret part: " 2. In the event of a territorial and political transformation of the territories belonging to the Polish state, the spheres of interest of Germany and the U.S.S.R. shall be bounded approximately by the line of the rivers Narew, Vistula and San. The question of whether the interests of both parties make the maintenance of an independent Polish state desirable and how the frontiers of this state should be drawn can only be definitely determined in the course of further political developments. In any case both Governments will resolve this question by means of a friendly understanding. " Two countries agre to dismantle country wich both plan to invade. Straigth from Pact which was Soviet officail document.
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@СергейРублев-т7я 1/2/3/4)Germans were so weaken after campanig in Poland that whole high command of Werhmacht oppose attack on France in 1939! German military was dissapointed because German plan do not account for campanig longer than 7-10 days. That is why Germans push for Stalin that he should join to war earlier than 17th September. And that is not the myth. Germans not without reason wait for spring 1940 to attack. Main trade Germany operate by Atlantic with USA and South America. Without oil from there Ronamian and Hungary trade can't support German economy. In case of blockade Germans have only reserves of oil to 1941-42 and in other materials it was more grim. Hitler "reforms" made german economy falling apart. Lack of trade and cut from oil and other resources would make fall much faster. Soviet help did not replace that, but made this period much longer. It made possiable for Germans even invade USSR later in 1941! Lenin was right, but in the same time wrong. Soviets sell the string that Germans nerly hang them. 5) Poland try to repair diplomatic relationship with Czechoslovakia. But Prauge count on France and USSR and reject polish proposition. How it ends. USSR and France do nothing to stop Hitler. And now you blame Poland? USSR was bounded by military alliance with Prauge! Even some Czech generals propose alliance with Poland against Hitler but president Eduard Benesz reject that because he belive that USSR and France will save them! 6) Thousend tanks, trucks and planes in Red Army was produced by USA and UK. Crucial war materials came from this countries too. USA and UK fougth with allied with Germany, Italy and Japan in the same time! WW2 was not only land war. Without strategic bombing German industry would produce more than produce in reality. Germans fleet keep great portion of resources that could be used in war with USSR, I understand that USSR want claim that won war alone, but it is not even close to truth. USSR was a part of big alliance fighting against other block. If Japan strike in 1941 on eastern part of USSR, who knows maybe war coukd take different way for Soviets. Hitler underestimate USA and UK. And he pay price for it, as he made this mistake with USSR. 7) Few examples, not even economic just military cooperation: Luftwaffe coordinate navigation by cooperation with soviet radio station in Minsk. Usage of this radio was done to help with navigation over Poland in 1939. Basis Nord- German naval base existing in USSR in tears 1939-1940. Used mainly to German fleet against Norway in 1940. After this operation base was close by Germans. German–Soviet military parade in Brest-Litovsk in 1939 as a official ending German-Soviet operation against Poland. 8) " 2. In the event of a territorial and political transformation of the territories belonging to the Polish state, the spheres of interest of Germany and the U.S.S.R. shall be bounded approximately by the line of the rivers Narew, Vistula and San. The question of whether the interests of both parties make the maintenance of an independent Polish state desirable and how the frontiers of this state should be drawn can only be definitely determined in the course of further political developments. In any case both Governments will resolve this question by means of a friendly understanding." Basicly what that mean by you like not agreement to invade Poland? And for this cause this part was claimed by USSR as a non-existing. By USSR there were no secret protocols! If there was no war, why Soviets take polish POW an even exchange them with Germans? Some of people taken by Germans to captivity land in Soviet hands and were killed by NKVD later in 1940. That is neutrality?
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@СергейРублев-т7я Here you have German chronical about this event: https://www.youtube.com /watch?v=CA__56vFqa8 Neutral side do not take part in parade to take a joy in beating other country on side of aggressor.
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@СергейРублев-т7я For me is obvieus is that you are not interested in any facts that destroy you propaganda vision of Soviet history. I do not have more time to lose it for you amd people like you. Who want to see and study real history can see himself what are the facts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6943A5_m6ZM
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@СергейРублев-т7я Parade in Brest Litovsk. Movies show full cooperation and participation of German and Soviet army. Myth my ass: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eGo-NEcEVI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QspnYAYGJ04 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lhsTMErZuc&t=28s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Tk48pwvf1s Plus some photos: https://www.google.pl/search?q=parade+in+brest+litovsk&sxsrf=ALeKk00O1fRvO8egUJj6nReTcpDWu1i8KQ:1584791443964&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiK2b2YwKvoAhVEQEEAHaPmBJQQ_AUoAXoECBAQAw&biw=1488&bih=925#imgrc=U7ZTxPrTFnTt1M: What is the point to talk with some who is claiming non-existenz of fact even proven by movie, iconography and other sources! Parade was done under command fro German side General Heinz Guderian and KombrIg (Commanding officer of the brigade) Semyon Krivoshein. "3. Lol. The text of the secret protocols contains a sphere of influence, not a plan for the destruction of Poland. The new border in the center of Poland is the border of the sphere of influence, and not part of the military plan. The exchange of Polish prisoners is not a sign of a military alliance, but part of a new treaty on friendly neutrality." Really? "Article II In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement of the areas belonging to the Polish state, the spheres of influence of Germany and the U.S.S.R. shall be bounded approximately by the line of the rivers Narev, Vistula and San. The question of whether the interests of both parties make desirable the maintenance of an independent Polish state and how such a state should be bounded can only be definitely determined in the course of further political developments. In any event both governments will resolve this question by means of a friendly agreement. " That is whole article from R-M Pact that prove that is planned invasion by Germany and USSR. But one part is important as a evidence: "The question of whether the interests of both parties make desirable the maintenance of an independent Polish state and how such a state should be bounded can only be definitely determined in the course of further political developments." Any problems with understanding simple text? Not mention that secret part of protocole was a secret and was denied by USSR basicly to the end of USSR. Around 1989 starts first changes in this area. 50 yeras later! Not mention that part contaning this article was obligatory keep out of public in secrecy by both sides, Germany and USSR! That whole article was even then illegal in international law and with obligations that USSR still have in Riga Peace Treaty and Non-Aggression Pact with Poland. Specially Non-Agression Pact from 1932 was still obligatory with part that state. On May 5, 1934, it was extended to December 31, 1945 without amendment. 17th September 1939 USSR break it attacking Poland fighting with Germans. Article 2 stricly forbid entering into cooperation or aiding any help to third party that will be hostile against Poland or USSR! Even creation of secret protocoles in R-M Pact was hostile action against Poland done by USSR to aid Germans.
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@СергейРублев-т7я Hahahaha you are so dumb that you really belive that people can't see that there is no difference between German-Soviet parade and as you claim Soviets moving in the same streets in city. You are worst than Goebbels. Clearly seen that both German and Soviet troops march before Guderian and Semyon Krivoshein. There is picture from other friendly parade from Grodno: https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ccee37de9529714bb1045376e9a62dff Too many evidence commie to claim that never happened. 2./3.) "2. You quote a fragment from the text of secret protocols that contain words about the sphere of influence, but do not contain the words “joint military operation against Poland”" Do not have to, many aggression was named as a defence or more dubois. Hell Hitler claim that he invades Poland nad USSR in slef-defence!. Even secret protocole with mention of join border is violation of Non-Aggression Pact with Poland. Not mention part of text about collabration in decission about Polish independence. That is de facto confirmation of Molotov words: And do not bother I am Master of Political Sciences with specialization in international relations. And I will give you reasons why even R-M Pact was illegal with existing USSR treaty obligations: 1) Riga Peace Treaty from 1922 2)Polish- Soviet Non-Aggresion Pact 1932 3) USSR as an active member of Leauge of Natiion can't part in any trety aimed on other member 4) R-M Pact was signed at 23rd August 1939 BEFORE INVASION AT POLAND WITHOUT ANY SOVIET DECLARATION ABOUT REJECTING OBLIGATIONS FROM PREVIOUS TREATY WITH POLAND! That mean USSR broke whole it's obligations 23rd August not 17th September and cooperate from this moment with Hitler. 6)17th September Polish Army still was fighting with Germans, Polish Government and High Command was on polish territory (Romanians confirmed that they move by they border at night 17th to 18th September, after Soviet invasion), on eastern part of Poland still new army units was form in next wave of mobilisation! Polish border guard patrol east border of Poland! When Red Army strike in polish back Poland was fighting with Germans! Warsaw was under siege but not taken. There were battles between Polish Army and Germans at Bzura, Tomaszow Lubelski and Kock. Red Army attacking Poland was fighting wthout declaration of war with Polish soldiers that try defend themself. Many battles was won by polish soldiers but in the end that agression was sucesfull because was in pair with nazi invasion. There are accounts of soviet war crimes against poilsh defenders. Finaly was executions in Katyn and other places. That is why we called that invasion because Poland was attacked in the same time when it was fighting with Germans! Even Molotov in his words confrm that was not just neutral and help for Poland and other nations operation: "A short blow by the German army, and subsequently by the Red Army, was enough for nothing to be left of this bastard (ублюдок) of the Treaty of Versailles" 9th September 1939 German ambassadore in Moscow Friedrich-Werner von der Schulenburg was inform by Molotov that USSR is ready to attack Poland not later than few days. 9th when Germans still fight with most of Polish Army. That is real date of decision. 17th September was just execution of this treachery. Molotov was warning that WWS will attack targets on soviet part! That was warning against soviet bombings of polish territory! Then take your communist propaganda and do not lie again. I do not need your books that make exccuse for USSR. You prove by your lies that you do not recognise truth even when you are confronted with evidence. Places like Katyn or Kharkow and Miednoye are evidence that USSR executed polish officials. Many of then were exchanged with Germans, because they were taken by Germans as POW. From German captivity they were given to NKVD and later in 1940 murderd by Stalin decision. Do you defend that?
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@СергейРублев-т7я Evidence are not only that photo but relations of civilians, Germans and Soviets. That is like claiming that there were no holocaust but Germans only let Jews killed themself.... Firet hand relations, picures and documents are not enough... because some randome commrad do not belive. 2) There was many lesser know battle when Poles realize opertional plans. But how we can fight when in second week of fight Soviet strike as in back... Examples? Operational Group Polesie first figth with Soviet troops and again then win battle with Germans. That was last battle of camaign, Batle of Kock! In 4th October! They won every battle on their combat, with Soviets and Germans. Group was disbanded because of lac ok ammunition! Even lost by Poles battle of Bzura was succses because cost Germans time and prevent capturing Warsaw. And for your information first transports from France and UK were send to Romania. After Soviet attack they were turn back. 2.3.4.) Molotov said very important words! "One blow from the German army and another from the Soviet army put an end...." Again maybe you understands :"One blow from German army and another Soviet army.." Then what the hell is that like not the description of military cooperation. German and Soviets together! Basis Nord was supplying Uboots and was stage to invasion on Norway. That is not only trade as you claim. Minsk radiostation was used as a marker for German Luftwaffe with cooperation of Soviet arm forces. Friedrich Werner von der Schulenburg german abassadore report that Soviets are waiting with invasion and do not acing in accord of mutual agreement in this case. Later he even report the false pretense on what USSR plan to give as a excusse to invade Poland! Fun fact he rescue Polish ambassadore and polish diplomatic staff, arrested by USSR with violation of diplomatic immunity. German Ambassadore rescue Polish when both countries were in war! Agains unlawfull soviet arrest! 5) "Lol, you call the lack of evidence the truth and the attempt to refute the old myths is the defense of the communist lies. But you did not even know the name of the book that I wanted to recommend to you. You refuse to seek the truth. This is not a scientific research method." Lack of evidence? Katyn Massace is enough evidence about real soviet intencion. Killing POW in such manner is typical for USSR because happen from start in 1939. Wounded polish soldiers were tortured and murdered after they were dissarm. Lies about help against Hitler that make soldiers give their arms to just be executed by Red Army. Deportation of civilians done as a element of ethnic purges. The same fate was put on Baltic States politicians and soldiers. And you lecure me that I have to read book to convinnce me that USSR was right to invade neutral country and there were no military cooperation with Hitler. I read too many books like that in school and from library. No commrad I have enoug soviet lies. If USSR was so great with socialism why USSR fall and how it is that today Russia is still poor.
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@СергейРублев-т7я Reading your response I can now tell that you are hardcore communist. No evidence or even realtions from vitnesses can't convince you. 1) Even with pohtos and relations are not evidence for you. Typycal claim is that they show something else. Historians spends years o analyse of them and there is no doubt that there are from join parade, not two different times and places! There are even photos of Victory Arches that hail win over common enemy! https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/ingwar_lj/11031373/323443/323443_original.jpg Or how friendly were German and Soviet soldiers to eachother: https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Q4e0PYwTZAQ/WgNZU7OAZ2I/AAAAAAACEx4/h-U_xJXp8JgX7PmjiP4bl__VrGTFuRe2QCLcBGAs/s1600/Brest-Litovsk_worldwartwo.filminspector.com_1.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKUY-GVXkAAZh0N.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_military_parade_in_Brest-Litovsk#/media/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-121-0012-30,_Polen,_deutsch-sowjetische_Siegesparade,_Panzer.jpg 2) Like that the most of Soviet industry was captured or in evacuation to rears in 1941! Thta is why so important was Stalingrad in 1942, because rest factories were in Moscow, Leningrad or evacuated on East! Fight still were taken by Polish Army and important materials were in the Eastern part. Whole inventories of uniforms, weapons and ammunition were taken by Red Army when they disarm polish sodiers which were send to mobilisation centers. Soviets gather so many polish weapons that they were use in defence of USSR in 1941! I saw photos of RKM wz.28 (Polish version of BAR) and other polish originated firearms in hands of Workers Militia in defence of Moscow in 1941! Poland still have soldiers in field fighting Germans and USSR give them many times false prromise of help and when they agree on Soviet terms, they were disarmed. Polish Army do not have ammunition because Soviets captured most of reserves on East part of Poland! How army could have them if Soviet get them! 3) He stated that Gemrans and Soviets destroy Poland. Plain and simple.What evidence you need? More is in historic books with information form German Ambassadore in Moscow to Berlin. He report every exccuse that Soviets give after not invading Poland in first days of September. One of his description give information that Soviets will attack Poland and demand that Germans do not cross demarcation line because from start soviet airfoce will bomb polish targets and that could lead to friendly fire! Straight from polish historic book translation of it. "Mołotow oświadczył, że wystąpienie zbrojne Związku Sowieckiego nastąpi zaraz, być może nawet jutro (...) Stalin przyjął mnie o drugiej w nocy w obecności Mołotowa i Woroszyłowa i oświadczył, że Armia Czerwona przekroczy dziś rano o godzinie szóstej granicę sowiecką na całej długości od Połocka do Kamieńca Podolskiego. Dla uniknięcia nieporozumień prosił usilnie, aby lotnictwo niemieckie od dzisiaj nie przekraczało na wschód linii Białystok-Brześć-Lwów. Samoloty sowieckie rozpoczną już dzisiaj bombardowanie terenów na wschód od Lwowa." Friedrich-Werner von der Schulenburg, Ściśle tajne, nr 371[ J. Łojek, Agresja 17 września 1939, s. 71. There are also recolections of Polish officers that wee transfer from Soviets to Germans as POW. Cooperation of Gestapo and NKVD in destroying polish ressistance movment. 4) Not one Uboot, but much more, also ships from Kreigsmarine that supply Germans invading Norway. That is much more than friendly help! It is military assistance! Minsk radiostation send signal that was agreed with Luftwaffe! Not just warning. It was crucial for German navigation over Poland! When USSR invade Finland, Third Reich block transit of weapons and food to Finland! It was with mutual agreement between USSR and Third Reich. 5) "5. You did not understand my position. The USSR was neutral in relation to Germany, but hostile to Poland. The murder in Katyn is the murder of the enemies of the Soviet system. The deportation of Poles, Ukrainians, Baltic states in 1936-1941 is not ethnic cleansing (the USSR is an international state), but a fight against spies, armed rebels and their social base (families). After the deportation of families, the intensity of the rebel resistance sharply decreased because they have no hope of success. Thus, deportation is a struggle for one's own security, not a terrible plan of genocide." That what Germans did before 22nd June 1941. Holocaust and mass genocide starts from 1942 as a planned action! Before was only smaller actions compared with what USSR did in the same time. They planned this earlier but they did not more than USSR in the same time in numbers of victimes! When German did it is genocide, but when USSR did it is...elimination of enemies? Stranh=ge logic. Mass deportation, executions of local leaders of population, not only Poles, but also Ukrainians and Bielarussians. Murdering polish POW in Soviet hands! Even Germans after campaign in Poland in 1939 they relise most of POW, they only keep officers. And even many with incidents of war crimes in battles of 1939 they did not murder most of officers in thier captivity. USSR did in 1940! Basicly I admire you honesty that you don't claim that USSR did not do it and blame Germans. Genocide is genocide whatever you will called it. Even claiming that USSR as a inernational country do not commit genocide and ethnic cleansing, then USA also can't do it by your definition. And in response on point 6. Your silly claim that 1980's USSR fall because of treachery is just stiupid. 1970 era was full of signs of comming fall. Social and economic. But with censorship and propaganda USSR keep truth hidden. From start communism was disaster for people livining in Soviet Rusia and later USSR.
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@СергейРублев-т7я 1). You are blind there is Soviet National Sign Hammer and Sicle plus two Swastikas! On one Arch as a symbol of victory! I am sure you will provide some "expalenation" on that. 2)Do you understand own language or English? "One blow from the German army and another from the Soviet army put an end to this ugly product of Versailles." "On blow...another from...." it is admiting that USSR take part in destroying Poland with Germans! What other you can claim that some other was going on? That is what I can name in your case of a cognitive dissonance in your case. I provide you source with realation of German ambassadore in Moscow about Soviet declarations from September of 1939. He inform Berlin on Soviet preparation what were done in connection with agreement that both countries strike Poland in the same time. And why Soviets didn't do it before 17th September 1939. You are mysteriously silent about it? What that source is non-legit? German diplomat who send informations to Berlin from his Soviet counterparts? Stalin even send some German communist to his new pal Hitler who was killing them! https://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/nazsov.asp 3. Gestapo and NKVD were providing information to eachother about polish ressistance. And they were providing exchange of POW from one country to another. Polish officers from Soviet captivity were change for that from German captivity in agreement reached after R-M Pact! Some of killed in Katyn was taken as POW by Germams and exchange with Soviets. And only Russians are claiming that is not truth when documentation and relations is confirmed by Germans and other sources. Not in anyway suprising that pro-soviet historians want reject that fact! http://nkwd-und-gestapo.de/ https://lithuaniatribune.com/soviet-nazi-cooperation/ 4)https://link.springer.com/referenceworkentry/10.1007%2F978-3-319-25582-8_20014 https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=OiKxyqNp8SUC&pg=PA111&lpg=PA111&dq=basis+nord&source=bl&ots=WKoOOUxr94&sig=-uwU9nPuFxjzhuvjPevP26OZPGQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fqJTUZGuMIyN0QGvtIHIBw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=basis%20nord&f=false http://www.oilru.com/or/16/204/ How important military was for Germans before capuring Norway is shown in service of Kreigsmarine. Like merchant raider Komet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_auxiliary_cruiser_Komet Or ships providing supply to attacking Norway German troops, ship named Jan Wellem was main source fo this transport and it operate from this base!
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@СергейРублев-т7я 1. In simple words only existing religion in USSR was communism. Any other was "heresy". As we know commrad Stalin was biggest genius in history.... 2. Yes because this labor was so ruthless that numbers of dead you claim were lower than in reality! When people died from famine and overworking wo need gas chambers. In reality that was 15% in peace years to 25% in wartime dead in Gulags in 1921 to 1956. https://www.hoover.org/news/gulags-veiled-mortality-golfo-alexopoulos 3. "The USSR did not repress the Jews - it repressed for cosmopolitanism activity." So called"conspiracy of doctors" antisemitic action start by Stalin. Stoped by his death. 4." Yes, Hitler's party had the name of a socialist, but in fact they were imperialists. The desire for living space is imperialism." Because USSR didn't invade anyone and even have no genocidal actions....SARCASM 5.Oh yes because Party members were did not proivliged. Not special shops for Party membersor even segregation in Party! Propaganda. nothing more. 6. Agreeing border inside independent third country is no plan of aggression is occasion is USSR do it. Anyone else is aggressor. Providing bases for German fleet is not military action and parading toghether is not act of military cooperation. 7. Stated goals not were realised......Propaganda can't hide poverty and failures of USSR. Holodomor or murdering own citizens with poison gas is not war crime is is done in name of communism comrad?
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@СергейРублев-т7я " I do not deny that the Polish NKVD operation was excessively brutal, but this is only an illusion of genocide." 110 000 victimes (only lower confirmed number, there are bigger estimates) killed because ethnic background, even most loyal communists killed by NKVD is not genocide? Then what it was as not crime against humanity of genocide by killing that way own citizens by just simple biurocratic decission? And you wrote like communist and use communist propaganda. That is point to see you as communist. To understand something you use objetive markers of science not subjective soviet ideology! It is like claiming that I have to study nazism, I am forced to thinking like nazi and accept that what is nazi point of view! Soviet point of view is understanded very easly. Whatever Soviets did was rigth. Amen. Sorry Sergei that is tottal bullshit.
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