Comments by "chris sonofpear1" (@chrissonofpear1384) on "Jubilee"
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@emperorsponge9208 Sorry, I am talking about PREDESTINING people here, as that is what Romans 8:29 and 2 Timothy 1:9, SEEMS, to err, imply. As do the following.
He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. Ephesians 1:4-5
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. 2 Timothy 1:9
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation. Jude 4
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@bladimirhernandez2983 Then tell me what the intention of Matthew 27:25 and 1 Corinthians 10 was, towards Jews in Christendom later. And the Curse of Ham's son, plus Leviticus 25:46, towards slavery later. And Matthew 5:18 and related matters, to gay people and what happens to them by DEFAULT or not, in Christendom?
And how do people KNOW which interpreters have the Holy Spirit, and which are, say, errant popes, theologians, Inquisitors or other nutjobs? Unless that WAS part of the Lord's interpretation, somehow.
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@hahdakdahkdhalsla It's called HISTORY - I suggest, you look it up. Inquisition, and all. Messy pogroms, and all.
And no, saying Catholics 'are not true Christians' isn't going to cover all the bases here.
So, this 'hating' of the wicked is presumably larger to, that God does, than His 'hating' of messengers who just give flipping bad news, in Numbers 14, presumably? But oddly, does not always resort in Him doing, jack all.
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@King Love would also maybe be to explain why we are in danger of such wrath, to begin with, and what role two semi ignorant humans in Eden could POSSIBLY have played in it? Or whatever Satan was owed, post exile.
Without that, there is no - truth. And see Romans 8:30, and Matthew 7:14, too.
Define also 'gone out of their way'? Did Pope Paul III go 'out of his way' and what response, divinely, did that provoke? Or Torquemada?
Or several kings and more, within ostensibly Christian nations?
Meantime, we see that - wrath - on display in 2 Samuel 24. And there, David WAS REPENTANT, even if we do not know if the 70,000 Hebrews who then paid a penalty for his actions, were.
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@tinkerinjones6604 Err, so giving us a SIN NATURE before, birth, by what AN IGNORANT, human, did, hastily - this is nothing, like, programming, a robot, yes? or 'spiritual death', whatever the HECK that is. Can any ANGEL, give, or pass that - to another?
And why did He SCATTER all humans, post Babel, when they were finally, ready, to all be taught? Give Satan ANOTHER head start, was it?
Still not forgetting Romans 9:22, here, eiiitherrr...
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@naria2224 Qualify it, then - 'not necessarily' isn't good enough, here. And ordinary peasants and other people, and Africans, had FAR LESS free will, choices, options, or safety, than wealthy or closeted clerics, translators, kings, priests, Popes, and bishops - all of who, could DEMAND they go to war, for them, often against each other, and those who were essentially believing the same thing as them, too. And not even get to READ all the bible, in their own language, instead having it 'interpreted' to them - complete with Augustine's, own, unique take on 1 Corinthians 10, perhaps, and the word 'typoi', as well, as applied to Jews.
Jews, then, within Christendom, frequently denied many basic rights and safeties, driven out, forcibly converted, tortured, mobbed, or having synagogues and Torahs burned, or caught up in pogroms, etc, etc. It's rather a LOT, to blame, just on free will, isn't it?
Doesn't this God find some things DETESTABLE? And is willing to make that VERY clear, in writing if you were an ancient Hebrew? Or if you gathered sticks, on Sabbath? Seemed very... invested, in those cases, perhaps disproportionately, so.
And what has free will got to do with letting TWO IGNORANT humans in Eden, 'chose' for if we inherit a sin nature, or be born 'spiritually dead', either - in ways no angel could ever 'chose' for other angels?
Also, there are a number of Old Testament verses, that mitigate somewhat against the idea of us fully controlling our will. Maybe, though, that is not so, for the... elect...
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@Harms361 Fine - so being in that relationship, you can feasibly ask Him what He felt, thought and did, about the blood libel on past Jews, and the Inquisition, in Spain?
As well as about all that slave trading that also, occurred, in past Christendom?
No pressure - but it sure would be nice to have nicely updated, to the minute answers, to share with us all here - correct?
Oh, maybe later build up, to why Satan got to keep so many powers - also.
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@DarkSektori Well those remain major areas of interest, including for Chaos theory, brane cosmology, and more - see also Strange Attractors, as a model. Or views of entropy where complexity arises to use up energy and reorder it, into new forms of 'waste' heat, in more and more diverse ways - pretty much a key premise of the Dan Brown book Origin, of recent, for a scientific theorem helping to drive the plot.
And many have claimed to verify afterlives, of course, though in the process we end up with evidence implying multiple different sorts of ones, at times fairly inconsistent looking. But by no means disproving it all, of course.
I too, have questioned the big bang at times, also, and even delved into plasma cosmology, for a time, which allows for a somewhat older universe than we might have so far believed - if it holds up.
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@harrygarris6921 and Has Gandhi experienced it? Guru Nanak? Siddhartha? And if it's BEYOND comprehension, why does Augustine, Calvin and Luther, purport to KNOW so much, about it, and often make mistakes, on their other conclusions?
And yes, if those other people, HAVE tapped into the real spiritual realm, then why haven't they met your Jesus? Has Satan hijacked their channels? Can he do that? An why is he OWED to do, that, if so?
And many of us read quite a bit, about it, too...
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@lukaspinoti107 And, ah, how do you feel, about Judges 21:14, Deuteronomy 21:11, and Numbers 31:18 - meantime?
Including, on the topic, of consent?
Regarding how immoral, or not, they were.
Whilst yes - we do still, have the Leviticus 25:46 dilemma, to resolve... (as was not done, even by 1500 AD, seemingly)
Kind of a belated flipping issue, that was, for theologians, clerics, and 'authorities'.
Be it of the Romans 13:1 type, or higher.
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@naria2224 Also, why should these Jews TRUST this indolent, hammock slumbering new god, when He just turned a BLIND EYE, to atrocities, across half of His churches (assuming not disavowed, I suppose) against medieval Jews, and others?
If WE DID that, would we be evil, or encouraging, evil? But hey, Isaiah 45:7 - and if it's in a city, and the Lord had done it, that too, eh? (Amos 3:6)
And 'rise up' - you haven't told me where and how, and how far, and by what route, this demented, ignorant, suicidal rebel angel 'fell' first - or why he kept his powers. Was he owed, to?
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@mv4004 How many ruddy peasants got to ENJOY THAT LIFE within Christendom, then, amidst CONSTANT wars, either feudal, sectarian, or national, which invariably saw them fight EACH OTHER over mostly TRIVIAL differences, and even resolving antisemitism took CENTURIES to resolve, and was at times, for some churches, borderline official POLICY too? What kind of PRIORITIES are these? What, to prove that humans are flawed?
I think we GOT that. So what is CHRISTENDOM itself supposed to stand for, if it can be as errant, divisive, hands off and unsupervised, as any other form of polity in medieval times, through to the 1800s? How EQUAL is this gift, really? And when did ANY ANGEL ever 'chose' for other angels, to make them spiritually dead, before their birth, too.
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@studentofthesaviors.o.s show me minutes of your discussions with Christ, then, and how he felt about the results of 1 Corinthians 10, and blood libels on Jews, and more, then.
And as for Magdalene Laundries, or 'conversion' therapy.... does He see room, for improvement?
Whilst we're at it, do angels have genes, do some have genes for debilitating, delusional pride, and are there such things as 'natural' angels, in the 1 Corinthians 2, sense.
And I imagine many, potential Christians, harangued, threatened, insulted and tried to scare, this person, with spiritual threats, be it secondhand, or not...
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@reggieedouard4361 It's possible, yes, but you'all note a LOT OF people have died, been shunned, conditioned, made afraid, or tried to be 'cured' in the recent and not so recent past, often with very bad results to their psyche or health. To say nothing of many Jews forcibly converted. So I am... concerned about some of the mysteries and shortcomings, here. And the general bad quality of evangelism I have often seen.
And there is a HIERARCHY here that many somewhat expect to see guided and directed, rather than simply randomly run nations and churches, as if not guided, or Discerning at all (in the spiritual sense) oftentimes?
As well as the fiasco over how slavery was defined. Or if gay people got to even live at all, for a long period of Christendom's history?
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@thechristianway5865 How did it fall into sin, and how inevitable was this, the moment Eve and Adam, were rushed into making key choices, they did not fully understand yet - or which enemies, potentially, existed. Or the stakes, to their descendants, and the rest of the world?
And I consider all feeling, suffering life, to have significant value, generally.
Including in Hosea 9:4 - too.
Lastly, sin began in heaven. How much of that, 'fell' into this unprecedented, unlikely, condition, or mindset?
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Largely, dead and defunct, for one?
Especially after the EMBARRASSING, harrowing prolongation, of any iteration, usage, or implementation, of Leviticus 25, Exodus 21, or Deuteronomy 21, err, say, in any form of apologetics, policy, or economy, ah, arguments, for one, @tacopig7605 ?
And yes, progress, must be made, sometime. 40 years - in the desert or in the glade - can be too long, to resolve some issues.
We can't have the next issue many priests endorsed, ala a slave trade, in European Christendom... go on to persist some 350 years, for one.
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@fundash5124 Hey, none of US are going to wipe out the human race. There are as many heterosexuals as ever, and this may even be related to stemming overpopulation, across the wider genome. Why assume it's random?
And I'd be looking hard, first, at whyever a demented rebel saboteur angel was able to get anywhere near human beings, first, ignorant, mostly about them - and also, keep any angelic powers, to boot.
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@mischa-roseelliman6040 Kind of the point, I guess - not all interpret it the same way, not even the LEADERS. Presumably SOME of those leaders can do miracles, John 14:12 style, say? And others were or were not MEANT to lead, convert or guide whole nations, or make policy? Yet the results often seemed very messy, varied, and even violent... indeed. Unfortunate.
Not that Paul or Peter ever said Christians would BE ruling nations, before the Last Days too - also, curious.
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@kingkongstrong3633 Like I said, I need MORE.
And what was, or wasn't meant to happen, to Jews post Matthew 27:25, or not? And how did, Jesus, FEEL about, the horrible things that did happen, to them?
Also, to Achan's kids, in Joshua chapter 7.
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@jaylayianieves315 Jayla, jayla, HE CHOSE to separate us. We had NO SAY in it, because most of us were not yet, BORN, in Eden. And there is NO proof Eve and Adam had ANY idea of the wider stakes or consequences beyond to two lives, at the time, or what good was, or evil, or death. Or that this God even had, an enemy, still less one who'd be admitted right into the supposedly safe Garden. So unless you can FIND out if they did understand any of those things, and that they were 'choosing' FOR us, in ways NO ANGEL has ever, been able to chose for another, or impair them spiritually, before birth - then I am going to have to consider your answer of a week ago dubious, perhaps invalid.
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What do you mean? You mean He made SEVERAL differing bibles that are not always the same, or interpreted, or even translated, the same, and were restricted from many they were preached to, from being read, for a large part of Christendom's history? And by 'make mistakes', where does permitting wars, slavery, pogroms or inquisitions, fit in? And were gay people to be put, to death, or 'cured', and when,
@シTranquility ?
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What, you mean become completely indolent, inactive and disinterested in wars, schisms, pogroms, a Spanish Inquisition and pro slavery priests, during much of past Christendom, @Allice Son , and pave way for 'free will' of closeted clerics, translators, priests and theologians, over those of ordinary, often illiterate or poorly protected people, sent into war after war?
And who is the jeopardizer too, and why was Satan owed jack all, to begin with, on this world?
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@harrygarris6921 Well, err, ask the Holy Spirit? That would be something - and aid credentials, too.
Also, this same God, must embody events in Hosea 9:12, 1 Samuel 15:3, and 2 Samuel 15:18? Maybe.
Your experience sounds much like what Hindus, Sikhs and even Muslims, say, too. If that can perhaps be counterfeited, why not your own...?
Hard, of course, to define, to outsiders, considering.
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@voltsowo His choice, surely? And why did Satan keep any powers, or access this world? Did Eve and Adam have ANY idea of wider stakes, also, since they did NOT yet know what good, or evil, even were? Which does seem odd, for the kind of info Stewards of the Earth, might be required, to have, for their role?
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@ashtonrindlisbacher2262 Then why is Numbers 5:11 kind of condoning it.
And we chose, NOTHING, in Eden, because most of us, were not, born, yet.
And Adam didn't know who, he was, 'choosing' for. And no angel has ever been impaired by such a 'choice' before they even get born, either. So they're free will, must logically surpass ours.
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@TedEhioghae Well - if none of you actually fulfil, John 14:12-13, though, or Matthew 17:20, however, Ted - then really, it is, generally, ALL the same, to most of us.
And boy, did you lot, and your myriad sects, and churches, used to war with each other - quite a bit!
Maybe try multiplying loaves, and fishes, more, now?
Africans, could actually use, that. Possibly.
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You mean, in IGNORANCE, much of the time, initially?
And has ANY angel ever been able to make a similar choice, that can fundamentally alter the nature of other, not yet born angels, as Adam and Eve did, @Satinder Kaur ? And who should have been running major Medieval churches and their global influence, or not, if I may ask?
Also, how DOES heaven even become a place sin and dissatisfaction and ignorance can even be conceived of, in.
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Tan Tan Nah, but how do you tell if a desire is normal, or consciously chosen, or not, and if they become unhappy or not, in suppressing it? And why did God decide it was not worth talking to some of the ones, who asked Him, about it? And my feelings tell me to extend compassion, and imagine how it would be if I was suffering as another was, or confused, or afraid. Something some churches seem to make a default setting, for certain people?
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@RedTape Try to be specific, not generic, in proof, if you could? Nature proves at most A generic creator - possibly several. And the imaginary Pagans of Romans 1:20 are not going to KNOW the backstory, in that example, of a Fallen world, with Satan possibly perverting or hijacking bits of nature. So if much is NOT under the control of a SINGLE hand or architect, then surely they will see signs of rival or shared gods, and not a single creator?
Perhaps, this was maybe an inevitable result of letting rebel angels keep their powers and utilize them on this world, I suppose, post exile - as well as not informing Adam, much about them?
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@Çaesar And it's a free gift, with no duress, bullying, ways to turn it into spreading it by the sword, or altering one's culture, taking one away from their parents, and even encouraging one to 'hate' them, to some degree? And where do we live out this eternal life? Also, why did He care what Satan thought of people not yet born, to let him even near those people, disguised, able to possess or manipulate, or pose as a being of light?
All after they receive hereditary impairment? That sounds like a mix of good, and bad, news.
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@demounacortez330 How great? More important than lives mentioned in 2 Timothy 1:9, Jude 4, 2 Thessalonians 2:11, Romans 8:29-30, Matthew 7:13-14, and Romans 9:11-22, say, Demouna? THAT doesn't look very great, OR merciful, to me. And wasn't heaven where sin, ignorance, and suicidal pride, and imperfection itself - actually BEGAN, too? Even prior Eden? Why was it flawed...
Or more important than medieval Spanish Jew lives, either, who were ABANDONED or neglected, to atrocities, often by 'priests'...?
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@chingli528 Funny, I think I'd have to say one who FAILED to make stable angels, and a perfect heaven, and lets rebels KEEP powers, tells Adam nearly NOTHING about them, or the stakes to MORE than two lives, or that he could 'give' Satan Dominion of... anything, at all, is not necessarily fully perfect. Or CONTINUALLY resorted to violence, and even BRAGGED about it, in Hosea 9 and Zephaniah, to accomplish goals, either, may seem a little off the mark, for potential perfection. Also, was direct, VERY clear cut participation and intervention, in Numbers chapter 15, during a capital trial, a ONE OFF thing, in that case? When compared to much LARGER issues involving schisms, Pogroms, wars, pro slavery interpreted verses, Inquisitions and sectarian conflicts, that is? Did they merit, LESS direct, and clear cut, pariticipation, by comparison?
And when has any angel been able to 'chose' for other angels, before they are born, or make them impaired, in nature, or cursed, or cut them off, from God? how does free will work for them, by comparison - and what is a 'natural' angel, when compared to a 'natural man'? And when are some 'predestinated', either?
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@Natalia Robinson - please explain 1 Corinthians 2:14, if you would, if such people are BORN or not, spiritually incapacitated, compared to other peoples; and how much of nature IS reliable, or opposed to God, or not? Quite in contrast to what Romans 1:20 implies, elsewhere, of nature? And how much of nature, post Fall, can or cannot Satan corrupt, alter or partially control?
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@samgamgee5910 Have you fulfilled John 14:13, yet, by the way?
I'm prepared to wait, a bit.
Also, how did Satan, 'come to the Father'... in the time, of Job? And also, why.
Whilst the Dead Sea Scrolls have all sorts of views and texts in them - even some Gnostic ones. And speaking of the demiurge, too, I think?
Oh, and lastly - does the Bible openly condemn, coerced marriages, in any form - and how often?
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And Pope Gregory XIII, Torquemada, Calvin and Luther, were far better, I assume, @ccook2010 Romans 1:16 ?
Also, was 1 Corinthians 10 and Matthew 27:25, SUPPOSED to lead, to the somewhat of a sh*tstorm, they did, by 1200s AD onward? Or was it a mistake? And what becomes of gay people, by default, post Matthew 5:18?
No talk of even offering a... cure, there.
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@RedTape Which God do we mean? The God of the Beautitudes and of the Sermon on the Mount, or the ranting bipolar looking figure of Numbers 14:37, who loses control, and apparently needs Moses, a human, to persuade him to calm down? And who cannot seemingly focus on mass scale salvation and messaging for longer than 40 years, without distractions, schisms, or handing Satan still more power on this world, that he had not especially earned, either pre or post revolt? And put very little effort of that displayed one, to winning back Jews, without abandoning them to errant, deranged theologians, and others, later...
And gave no longer term instruction whether to cure, or slay, or not, gay people, either...
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@@olufsen8394 Mmm... try fulfilling John 14:13?
Then we can begin, maybe, to start telling, your claims, apart...
Also, was Augustine, Calvin, Pope Paul III - and Torquemada - ever asked, to do such?
To fulfil, such? Before, ever making, any policy - or law?
Or governing, leading - etc.
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@soph4702 Err, HE CHOSE to do that, okay? He CHOSE to separate us. Do not blame ignorant Adam and Eve for doing so. They didn't even understand the wider stakes, beyond to two lives, or what good or evil was, or death. So death could not possibly have deterred them, and with no idea of good or evil, I am not convinced, they can understand obedience. And why has no angel ever gone through such an elaborate test, for THEIR loyalties or obedience? Especially as they all got to chose, without any inherited, bizarre pre birth, curses.
Also, did David's son in 2 Samuel 15:18 HAVE to die, as painfully as he did, or not.
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@soph4702 He made SURE A MAN who broke the Sabbath got put to death - and that Daniel's pretty much BLAMELESS son died, horribly, in 2 Samuel 15:18. Other forms of intervention to sort out some MAJOR MESSES in many churches, before they happened, should be child's play, by comparison.
And yes, I have read Job - and why can Satan REVISIT HEAVEN in that case, and be in or near the Presence, of YHWH? An unshrived, impure, sinful, being, like we are told we are, that YHWH can never be directly near, in our lives. And we were NOT IN EDEN and we did not, in any sane or logical way, all 'chose' anything, there.
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@soph4702 but Job's family also lost big time, and 1 Corinthians 10 is a patented LIE depending on where you lived, among who, which churches, which bits of Christendom, and if you were Jewish, gay, or African, peasants, etc.
So kindly make this MORE universal, please, and less about an 'elect'. Or 'pre-chosen', or the non 'natural men'.
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@soph4702 Okay, fair enough - but do you begin to see my, and others', problems, about this? Who is 1 Corinthians 10 addressed to, either, except those who have already been, maybe, 'saved'? And it's not clear which churches have sufficiently, done that yet, anyway.
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@Full Throttle Tell me some of the evidence, then? And what is the RIGHT context for Leviticus 25:46, and 2 Samuel 15:18, and Numbers 31:17? Also, for what Adam DID OR DID NOT know of the stakes, to more than two lives, in Eden, and if he even knew, that Satan existed anyway. Or what death was, or good, or evil.
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@joshuaortiz6739 It happens, though. because there IS NOT NOW a SINGLE consistent CHURCH, is there? And many are still BORN into all sorts of them. And if people still FAIL to get the help, what then?
Also, do 'natural men' ala 1 Corinthians 2:14, get the help, UNDERSTAND they even NEED help, relative to others, and feel any urge to do so? What are they BORN or not as?
Also, how does a Hindu want to sin? A Jew? A Sikh? By having another God? But they can't see which one, anyway, and the very IDEA of there being other gods seems seeded by divine intent? At least, the belief of there being so? Or even counterfeit ones, actually disguised saboteur angels, maybe?
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@rudiruttger Well I am asking now.
Comment, on how sexuality, is portrayed, and negatively, or positively, in:
Deuteronomy 21, Exodus 21, and Numbers 31:18.
May help, provide, proper, fuller context, by now.
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@fearandloathing9976 Growing, but funny it spent so much of that time schisming, warring, or abetting feudal wars, renewed slavery abroad, and then even an Inquisition? It seems a little chaotic, at times.
If the ones involved had instead gathered firewood on Sabbath, would YHWH then have come down like a proverbial set of bricks upon them, timely? Or at least spoken?
Per precedent, that is what many must infer.
And many other things are growing, as all population, is growing.
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@tomlabooks3263 Okay, and can you somewhat paraphrase, for me?
I find, consent, a pretty significant topic...
Particularly, when others sometimes characterize some relationships, as lust based, only...
Whilst Augustine did have the odd trouble, I hear, with Matthew 27:25, and 1 Corinthians 10...
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@Nameless10949 too late, then, compared to 'typoi' in 1 Corinthians 10, which did not help Torquemada, 'understand more clearly', for example?
And what did happen to many gay people, by default, in Christendom? Was it ever the same that befell many 'witches', too, for centuries, say.
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@carlycakessantos7335 Clarify please, then, how pride can become both suicidal, and apparently, IGNORANT pride, within an angel? And why any other angels would EVER believe he could win a revolt? And how such ignorance and dissatisfaction could even manifest, in God's direct presence?
Also, per Luke 13:24 and later, how narrow is this path to actually get, and why was any soul put at any such risk, to begin with? Was Satan owed anything?
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@gabetalks9275 We were put into JEOPARDY in the first place, why precisely? And impaired in ways NO ANGEL ever was, prior to birth, why also?
And HOW much of nature can or cannot Satan control, influence or distort, post Fall, and make how much of nature NOT always seem clearly, the hand of a single architect?
Also, will all want to be near to the Father, if He does not always seem... fatherly...? And has which arrangements, with Powers and Principalities?
Also, uses Satan, or trusts him at all, to 'test' anyone - why?
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@gabetalks9275 Prove to me Leviticus 25:46, and Samuel 15:15, and Numbers 31:17, are wholly good, first.
And that Adam and Eve had any CONCEPTION yet of what disobedience means, with no idea of good or evil, yet?
And if so, why were they being put into ANY position to 'chose' for people not yet born, that would in future, impair them, mentally, and genetically? And make them 'spiritually dead' - that I am not sure ANY OF YOU can properly define, yet.
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@acemxe8472 What world consciously sinned? Adam and Eve didn't even KNOW what good or evil, or death, or the stakes beyond to two lives, was, at the time - nor that Satan existed. And WE didn't chose. And Romans 1:20 is now strained to breaking point, too, and never accounts for the Glass Darkly thesis, either, that none of the hypothetical Pagans Paul was referring to in Romans 1, would even know about.
And FELL to WHERE, and by what route, this hypothetically ignorant, delusional and suicidal angel? Who still got many to believe him, and even kept powers. We didn't - and even our knowledge was stolen from us, pre birth.
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Kind of worthless, isn't it, @Gerardo Godoy ? Paul's imaginary pagans, in that, are not BORN aware of the Fall happening, or of SOME of nature being hijacked, corrupted or perverted, post Fall, by Satan or Adam, were they? So they'd not see the CLEAR hand of ONLY one god, at work, in VISIBLE nature, alone, perhaps.
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@melissa-c4x This God, GAVE SATAN, his powers, let Him KEEP them, and told Adam, nothing about him, however? Or of good, evil, death, the wider stakes, to more than two lives, etc, etc. Interesting - has ANY angel been asked, to 'chose', and for other angels, in such a way, then?
And you lot are currently 'progressing' in circles, more and more, and have been since your wretched wars, schisms, pogroms, and more, sadly.
Maybe it IS time some women got to preach, for a change. Bring in, new blood.
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@melissa-c4x Liar, I'm afraid - 2 Corinthians 11:14 - 'And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light.'
And may well pose as OTHER GODS too, back to Babel or before. And how are those BORN into scattered tribes and cultures, long, long ago, with their oral history DESTROYED at Babel, to know which is the 'real' one or not, or not be misled?
You lot, CONSTANTLY, claim all other gods come from the Devil and his angels, so that, CONSTITUTES usage, of powers.
And what of possession, either.
And 'kicked out' TO where, how far, and by what route, and why KEEPING, any, powers, such as above.
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@donimikooyouknow9240 Can you be human, though? Can you have free will? DO WE have full free will, full conscious choice? And how much of nature and human nature is Satan authorised to corrupt, or fiddle with, or mislead on, with few even aware of it?
And can Jews be Christians? Do they all agree on what a Mossiach is? When will brother be turned against brother, and that's okay, because 'hate mother and father', somewhat allegorically, anyway, per Luke 14?
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@user-pp8ru6uu1s And the thing is that Christians DO vary precisely SO much, depending on churches, sects, dogmas, selective use of verses, fervour, siege mentalities, and so forth. It often depends at lot on the preachers, pastors, etc - and how much 'stoking' they may do.
Also, WHY would slavery EVER become tolerated, possible, or continual, within Christendom, anyway? Was it not a holy priority to resolve? Was this more 'free will'?
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@Paul Dee - and that's definitely nice, but I want all of you to do the same, and learn too, if possible?
So if you wish to help people be 'safe'., could you explain why ANY soul was put into jeopardy to begin with, with no idea of good and evil by the TWO people given the 'choice', that no angel was asked to make, that altered all the other humans?
And if you do not know, and the Bible does not reveal it, then asketh, if you would, of the Spirit, too.
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@andyscott15 There's a lot that's not so accurate. And where would Adam and Eve have lived, also, if nobody died? Would you or I even exist to day, if they had not eaten the fruit? And why is death somehow not a natural part of the natural world? Also, why was Satan owed anything, and when has any not yet born angel, disloyal or not, ever received a curse or spiritual impairment, before birth? Let alone an hereditary, one?
Also, your full opinion, perhaps, on Matthew 7:18, and Romans 13:24? Concerning yield... of the crops... sorry, survivors?
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@souhiyori8032 Oh, do we? Equally, post Adam, Eve, and curse of Ham's son, or not? Or post 1 Corinthians 2:14, and 2 Thessalonians 2, about 'strong delusion'. Or those 'predestinate' in Jude 1:4 and 2 Timothy 1...
Anyway, yes it is a little complicated. Also, if Gregory XIII, Calvin and Torquemada, were 'not true Christians', then how were ordinary laypeople to know this, if they never got chastised, removed, or punished? Or showed powers John 14:12, style, say.
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@thechristianway5865 Again, how.
And was Eve, designed to 'miss the mark'.
Plus, see also, hamartia.
And what was, Satan, designed, to do - and with how much, debilitating, pride, too?
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@insert_username1391 Well, beside the predictions (other than 'unsound teaching' will spread far, which may have happened as early as 500 AD or sooner) what about the actual management of the translations and interpretations? Which churches or theologians were best guided by this, and did any such guidance cease to occur, before schisms, wars, pogroms etc, began to arise? In certain places, of Christendom.
And when I say guided, I of course, mean by beyond human means, alone.
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@brandonxs9r659 Err, surely there were people like that over 800 years ago, and right up to 1572, in the Massacre of St Bartholomew's Eve...?
Also, many wore cassocks, seemingly. And who chose to become 'natural men' either, other than Adam and Eve, who forced this hereditarily on people (and 'spiritual death' too, it seems) and did not seem aware they could do that, to others?
And were the men who married captive women in Numbers 31:52 walking after lust, as I find it a bit hard to believe the marriages were wholly consensual, there...
And just how DOES doubt, ignorance, gullibility and dissatisfaction even arise in angels at all, assuming Romans 1:20 applies to them equally, too...
And is Zephaniah a book about long suffering patience, or more a sullen rage - also, who is 'predestinated' ala Jude 1:4, or not?
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@jordant889 Proof it, though? He accessed Eden; he accessed Earth; he revisited God. And why would Satan BOTHER to seek permission, if his whole original DEAL was that he believed himself SUPERIOR to God, and somehow, bizarrely, convinced one third of the other angels, that he was, TOO? And odder still, they all KEPT their powers, post exile?
And who chooses, to be born into other religions? Whilst angels have MORE free will, to disguise selves? Compared to the knowledge the Fall took from us, innately?
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@lukekul297 So did Jehu give in to sin, or resist sin, in 2 Kings 10?
And the previous chapter, in 1 Kings 14, would you have obeyed, or not?
And I assume it's a sin to be wrathful and proudful, and jealous?
Except in very specific, cosmic circumstances?
Also, faith does not always equal reality, for most.
Although I hear that John 14:12, is meant to be, something of an exception?
Whether now in widespread abeyance, or not.
Also, some used to say being black was the choice of Ham's son!
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Look up M-theory, Brane cosmology, quantum foam, and other leading contenders, most at least, broadly compatible, on similar aspects of the model, @Rainbow Knight Gaming . I'm still hard at work, looking into ALL of it, too.
And no, it does not - yet - HAVE to fully, rule out, any possible god.
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@jacksonkarlson234 What do you mean by righteous? And why could Satan ever LEAVE HELL and visit God, to discuss Job - if he was, sinful.
And is the same god as now the one in Numbers 14:45, or not? Because I have REAL trouble, believing that.
Also, why would any pogroms be tolerated, to greater extent than gathering sticks on Sabbath ever, was.
And sin means, to MISS the mark, which is what Adam was INTENDED to do, yes?
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@Κύκλωπας What about 2 Timothy 1:9, and Jude 1:4, and Romans 8:29, also? Or 2 Thessalonians 2, and 1 Corinthians 2:14. Or statements about 'reprobates' and 'carnally minded' people.
Also, do you know what Arsenokoitae, means. There's a lot more in there (Paulline stuff included) than on simply loving a neighbor. Which can be a somewhat broad, or vague, term.
And were gay people neighbors, and what WAS by default, to happen to them after Matthew 5:18, anyway.
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From who, or what, are they saved, @slamee100 - and why was heaven ever flawed, why was Satan OWED ANYTHING, or to keep any powers, and how can Adam 'chooooseee' for people NOT yet born, with NO idea of good, evil, death, that Satan existed, or of stakes, to more than two people?
Also, are any PREDESTINATED from before the Age, or from birth, ala Jude 1:4, and 2 Timothy 1:9, and Romans 8:29...?
Please give it a BIT more thought, if you would, slamee100 . Also, what is more important: A God showing up to the trial of ONE Sabbath breaker, in Numbers 15, to give testimony, or one who RESOLVES or averts, schisms, wars, Pogroms, Inquisitions, torture, and pro slavery verse interpretations, if I may inquire....
Take as long as you need, to answer at least some of these, or ask whichever Spirit you need, for aid...
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@RedTape And for many other things too, including to children, for just AIDING a looter, in hiding loot, or being part of a HOUSEHOLD, that badmouths, Him? (Joshua 7:24, Numbers 16:27) and also curses a kid, to die, for just being fruit of an adultery? (2 Samuel 15:18)
But why the heck am I bothering with you, motor mouth?
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@gavinbyrne6802 And He KNEW Adam was going to choose wrong. And we were impacted, impaired by, that choice. So it wasn't, OUR choice, or our own, unimpaired free will. And why is the freewill of errant church leaders, Popes, and inquisitors, more important, than their victims. Many of who, could not even READ these 'words of wisdom', that were selectively presented to them.
So much, for equal offer, of salvation, I guess.
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@tinkerinjones6604 Where are you progressing to, then, and why do schisms, occur, and is Catholicism, an accident of God's design, or not?
And how would you convert Jews, today, without using powers - or explain, why their safety, in medieval Europe, was a lesser concern, of this Jesus? Apparently...
Also, Matthew 5:18 - ahem.
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@tinkerinjones6604 Only SOME are, and those who were LUCKY enough, to be given the choice, without being deemed 'god killers', part of a blood libel, or seen as part of conspiracy, against Christendom. Which then led, to CENTURIES of pogroms, Inquisition, and persecution.
So what didn't He care, about that? And why do nice ROUND fractions of us, have to be WIPED out, in a Pre Tribulation, disaster, just so He can unveil wrath, against SOME unrighteous?
Does merely following a different God (often born into those relations) or a different VERSION of Him, or his Gospel, taught to them, make people unrighteous, too?
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@tinkerinjones6604 Also, didn't He make Satan's actions, his whim, to test, tempt or destroy humans, quite a bit easier, by throwing all into that situation, before Adam was barely equipped, to make such a choice? That impaired or ALTERED human nature, and will, in ways no angel has ever been able, to do, to another?
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@tinkerinjones6604 Heartwarming? heartwarming would be NOT HAVING f***ing Pogroms and Inquisitions in the first place, say, or whatever bits of 1 Corinthians 10 Augustine TWISTED to his didactic ends, against Jews, too. That would be a great help, for one. Or the slavery apologetics.
Or failing that, SOME kind of clear, divine action - not merely human level - during any of the above.
Deep seated issues, indeed. The horror stories, some could tell you - and that's leaving out all the pogroms, altogether, too.
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@tinkerinjones6604 Aha - and WHICH VERSION of these Gospels, and god, is it? And why should I BELIEVE the God of the Beautitudes, is the SAME RUDDY being as from Numbers 14:37, 15:32, 21, 31:17, Joshua 7:24, Amos 3:6, Hosea 9:12 and 13:16, or 2 Samuel 15:3? Or Leviticus 25:46, either?
And we were BORN UNAWRE of which or how many gods even EXIST, because of what Adam did - in a way NO angel, in THEIR free will, has EVER been. And we are born, somehow, with a 'sin nature', too?
Well, was Gandhi good, despite that? Guru Nanak? Siddhartha?
I can judge, somewhat, too, INACTION, as well as action, when it comes to ethics - at least, in theory.
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@bruhidk3069 And various verses clash on what hell is or isn't, and some refer to sheol/hades/the grave, anyway, in original translations. Which is all prior to the Pit of revelations, into which many beings and mechanisms and even Hades, are tossed. But since the Fall RADICALLY altered all human awareness, consciousness, and more than likely, FREE WILL, and inherited curses messed with that further, can you PLEASE qualify better how the choosing even WORKS? Even without DISGUISED disloyal angels around who can pose as beings of light, and potentially set up rival, trap religions? When we lose all certain awareness of which or how many creators there are, upon entering into the test?
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@losttime6949 Well, I did, and it's hard to find any firm dates, or scale, to either events, specifically?
The Exodus seemed somewhere between 1200 BC and 1700 BC, but not all scholars are convinced it happened the literal way it was described, or if it was more than one event/wave of migration, potentially? And some feel the escaped happened at the Red Sea, whilst others say it was at the Reed Sea?
For the Flood, anywhere between 2300 BC and 9600 BC have been suggested, with the idea of it being particularly GLOBAL in scale suiting the older date, far better, in the post glacial era.
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What about the MISSING bits, though, @KeiaJohn 4:15 ? And also, what KIND of marriage was described or endorsed, in Numbers 31:17? Consensual, volitional marriage, or not? And how does ANY ANGEL at all DEVELOP a sense of suicidal pride, ego, ignorance of the basic nature of God, in a realm where ALL HIS invisible qualities, are FULLY visible, and suffuse heaven? And even conceive of dissatisfaction, in their role, and in God's presence, at all. Let alone be permitted, to keep their powers, post exile, into reach of the one world above all, they most wished to harm.
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@maryphilips1795 So, are they equally so loved - and also, were medieval Jews, post 1 Corinthians 10, loved EQUALLY so, in Spain, Italy, etc, by Jesus? To merit more action, or comparable say, to turning up to condemn a man for working on Sabbath, as in Numbers 15? Was more action warranted, at or above that level, to protect them from errant theologians, priests, bishops, Popes, etc? Or inquisitors.
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@maryphilips1795 And were medieval Jews circa 1572, and under Augustine, Gregory XIII, and Torquemada, EQUALLY loved, or not? Worthy of equal time or attention, from Jesus, to aid their safety? Worth at least as much, as turning up in Numbers 15:32, to ensure, a Sabbath breaker, got stoned - or not, as worth, of the time? Help me, out, here.
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@MC_MMV What, in the same realm where evil, sin, and suicidal pride was first CONCIEVABLE of, by one third of all angels? That sounds a little worrying. And what of Romans 9:22? Also, why was Satan OWED anything - especially on this world? Powers to keep, access to here, knowledge of good and evil before Eve or Adam got it, and they told nothing about him...
And which Christology, do we mean, also...?
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What ARE we progressing toward, then, @bre , and will it just be a Blessed Remnant, again? Because there's no momentum, clarity, feedback, or saying why Inquisitions do not get the Numbers 15:32 treatment, intervention wise? Try to be more specific, please.
And when did Paul, James or Peter ever say Christians would rule much of the world, before the Last Days, too? That sounded worth at least a chapter.
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@jkirannma Yeah, I do not recall any more than TWO HUMANS ever actually getting a full, and CONSCIOUS choice on the matter, however? And was there something about God suddenly worrying humans would not be loyal to Him without a choice? So the first thing the snake or Satan can do is IRREVOCABLY confuse that choice, for all afterward, who could no longer SEE God, or know which one was the real one? Or see the DISGUISED rebel angels among them, who could could pose, thereafter, as 'beings of light'?
And how does this work for the 'natural man' of 1 Corinthians 2:14, too? Do they have diminished spiritual sense for such things - from BIRTH?
And did Paul ACTUALLY mean to use the term 'UNSPIRITUAL man', instead, also? If so, why WAS that word not used?
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People have SUGGESTED elsewhere that the only reason the snake, or maybe Satan, was IN EDEN at all, was to 'give humans a CHOICE' - albeit it often by a very STRAINED definition of what constitutes a conscious choice.
Also, though many imply that refers to a choice between good and evil, NOWHERE is it said to be a choice between COMPETING ideas of good, or of God - who, let's remember, had given up any visible, direct and incontrovertible presence, in that world, thereafter.
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@Jürgen And slavery, is not a sin, or a crime, according to the Bible.
Nor, is some, forced, marriages - it seems.
Deuteronomy 21, Judges 21, Exodus 21:7-20 - Leviticus 25:46.
And meantime, 'enjoy' ghastly, despicable, 2 Samuel 24 - and it's 'wisdom', too, I suppose.
And no, people do not 'know' it is a sin - they either are attracted, consensually, to someone, at a level deeper than just the physical... or they are, not.
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Unless it involves capturing women, forcing them to marry, cursing kids, slaying kids, destroying whole towns, drowning people, bequeathable slavery, and so on...
That is also, presumably, true, Michelle Schubert .
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@chill6445 (Sigh) how long is this tiresome explication going to be used? TWO people with NO idea of the wider stakes, and no idea of what good, or evil, even were, I think, are going to struggle to make a MEANINGFUL choice, even for themselves - let alone for an entire species, yet to be born. And why is disguised, delusional angels allowed to ply THEIR free will (with I might add, many RETAINED angelic powers, like of disguise) among humans? Why owe them that much? Or care what Satan's opinion was? A nut who thought he could overpower the highest being?
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Although can you fulfil John 14:12, too, and grow with Christ, however, @calebsharp5768 ?
As many are not sure what the growing looks like, or to what point.
Did many past, policy makers, leaders, and church leaders... also grow, with Christ?
Including, in harrowing, confusing... past times... and schisms, also?
Oh, and a slave trade, technically... too.
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@melaniemars155 Partly my point is that Christians have constantly disagreed about many things, since like 800 AD, or even 400.
And certainly by 1565 or so.
Also, what is the credentials, to show one is not a lukewarm Christian, but a true (TM) Christian?
And does it still, involve, any powers?
Like in the early, days.
And those too, may have been slightly useful, during times, or repeated, schisming, also.
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@harrygarris6921 Then why did He stop love medieval Jews, much - from what I can, err, tell?
It was love, in theory, to specifically reveal a Sabbath breaker did so with malicious aforethought, in Numbers 15, but it is not neglectful, to not take similar efforts against pogroms, etc? Church, err, led, pogroms...?
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What, He loved DAVID's INFANT SON uniquely, too, did He, before cursing him to early death, too, @SINDI ? Or Achan's sons, and daughters, to be uniquely stoned, alongside him? Or assorted kids in Hosea 9:12 and 13:16, possibly, and Numbers 16:27, 1 Samuel 15:3, and Numbers 31? And were medieval European Jews, equally loved, too...?
And WHY WAS SATAN owed anything - on this world, and KEEPING powers, post exile - and with Adam knowing, almost nothing, about him, or the stakes, beyond to TWO lives...?
So, given this, and 2 Timothy 1:9 and Jude 4 - may I also ask, who is the SPECIFIC 'us' in this? And how many of 'us'?
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@sindijord WHICH BLOODY GOD first. And you WILL READ 2 Timothy 1:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:11, Jude 4, Matthew 7:18, and Romans 9:11-22 FIRST - please. You will LOOK AT what they say, and CONTEXTUALISE it - and then get back to us. And say if ANY ANGELS were so 'predestinated' or had choices made, FOR them, before they even existed/were born, either.
And I am an agnostic, humanist, thanks.
Also, what WAS OR WAS NOT meant to happen, to Jews post Matthew 27:25 and 1 Corinthians 10, within Christendom - and was messier parts of that, LESS important, to this God, than the trial of ONE Sabbath breaker, in Numbers 15, that He deigned to show up to in PERSON - and give very, very clear responses, too. Unlike, often, later.
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@sindijord But did you read the verses I listed? They do not seem to paint the SAME picture you describe. And we are NOT RESPONSIBLE for what Adam and Eve, in partial IGNORANCE, chose, either. And why did YHWH deem the trial of one wood gatherer in Numbers 15:32, to be more important than intervening or clarifying, on much WORSE events, abuses and errors, within past Christendom, or pogroms, Inquisitions, etc, etc...
After all that, why should Jews now trust you, at verbal claims, alone...
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@sindijord Principles? For, murdering, children, at times, you mean? Read much Samuel, Hosea, Numbers, or Joshua 7?
And WHY WAS SATAN OWED ANYTHING. And why would He CARE WHAT HE thinks of Job or ANYONE else, after he proved DELUSIONAL, disloyal, and suicidally prideful, and treacherous?
And this law of Grace thing has often FAILED BADLY to be described or convinced to many Jews - when Christianity was not ITSELF schisming, fighting each other, abetting feudal wars, slavery, pogroms, or antisemitism... in at least half of it, at a given time.
ANd Adam was ALWAYS GOING TO LOSE. He had NOT SUFFICENT knowledge or experience to do ANYTHING else.
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Tell me what you mean, though, by sound doctrine and restitution, and what restitution is made by sabotaging a species before most of them are born or not, or stoning or cursing children, taking women captive to implied forced marriage, or buying, selling and bequeathing some people, for life, @Satavia Smith ? Also, if you witness a ghastly set of pogroms or an inquisition going on, would you do something, about it? Given you are not 'restrained' - yet we must wonder what restrains other, more cosmic beings, say. Who may deign to put money where mouth is, beyond tribal laws?
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@GloryBeToGodForever And why should Jews trust you, and why was their basic life and safety, a low priority, to Jesus, in 1400 AD, and 1572, August, etc, etc...
And why was rogue angels KEEPING powers, and full knowledge of which and how many gods were real, a higher priority than for Eve's children, not losing that innate knowledge...
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@HollyBowem I mean, I guess - how do you, know, that this God loves EVERYONE equally? What of Esau? 'Carnally minded' people, 'reprobates', and whatever else Paul calls people? Gay people, Amalekites, Gideonites, or David's son, in 2 Samuel 15, also?
And did many gay people, historically, get a chance, to struggle, come out, and NOT face capital punishment, coercion, etc? Going back, say, five centuries?
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@Nitesam Him keeping any powers, reaching this world, DISGUISING himself (pre and post Fall) somehow becoming ''god of this world' (did Adam KNOW he could transfer that to him? Did he, at any point, KNOW this Satan even EXISTED - or of the stakes beyond to his and Eve's life - or good, evil, death, either...)
And you go and read Joshua 7:24-26 in your own time, thanks. And vaguer ones like Numbers 16:27 (whole households, swallowed into holes... kids, too?)
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@Nitesam And who gives a CRAP WHAT Satan says, or a 'jealous', potentially insecure, god? NOBODY EXISTED YET except for TWO PEOPLE who had NO REAL useful knowledge yet, to STEWARD OR protect, a world. So what, was, the point? And NO ANGEL has ever been put through that kind of 'test', or been impaired before birth, as most humans were, either. And that is the main point, isn't it - ADAM DIDN'T KNOW. Well Satan KNEW A WHOLE bunch of things, so why does HE GET A HEAD start, in this way? A delusional, demented, monomaniacal, suicidally prideful traitor? Who gives a crap what he thinks of humans - especially not yet BORN ones, to 'test' them, or not? Especially if all are born spiritually impaired and unable to see which god is real - again, in ways NO ANGEL ever was, before they were 'tested' (if they were indeed, tested at all)
And kids often do not KNOW THEY are sinning - and if sinning means, to miss the mark, or fall short, then why did this heaven, fall short, so much, of it's own intended mark - early on...
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@Nitesam I think it would be wasted on you, maybe? I am asking why this God CARES what Satan thinks, of Job, or Adam, or ANY other human, or to 'test' them, whilst they are IMPAIRED from before birth, by what Eve and Adam 'chose'. It's not, bloody, difficult, to understand. NONE of these angels are so impaired, and even KEEP powers - like of disguise, possession, 'lying signs and wonders' and posing as a 'being of light'. Whilst any innate awareness humans post Adam might have, of WHICH or how many gods are REAL or the genuine article, or not disguised counterfeiters, is TAKEN from them, or sabotaged, due to the rash and impulsive, and potentially quite ignorant, acts - of just TWO people.
Well there has NEVER been just two angels, who can do that, to any other angels - or even one third of them. Or have we SKIPPED over, that bit?
If Satan can offer no RATIONAL reasons to be trusted any longer, why care if he suddenly implies humans may not 'love God back' without a 'choice'? And that's stretching the definition of 'choice' to breaking point, at times.
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@Nitesam Have done, didn't - others already let down, or never answered...
And you WILL CONTEXTUALISE Romans 8:29 and 9:11-22, and 2 Timothy 1:9, and Jude 4 - PROTO, please. This is no longer, negotiable.
Nor is how ANGELS make 'free will choices' compared to POST Fall humans, with inherited curses, or a 'sin nature'. A qualitative comparison, must now, be made...
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Then you chose how to work with slaves, then, in Leviticus 25, and Exodus 21:20, @Vica B - as well as what kind of marriages are PERMISSIBLE, even coerced, ala Numbers 31:17?
Also, how old were Achan's CHILDREN, again, in Joshua 7:24 - and what fate, did they meet with.
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In what, though, @Machi Griffin ? Also, are we to believe that gathering sticks on Sabbath, and being punished for it, garners more direct Divine intervention and involvement, than entire schisms, wars, pogroms and an Spanish Inquisition, ever merited?
And why did Romans 1:20 fail so, badly, with many angels. Not all of them, believed.
Funny most of them got to keep several powers upon exile, too.
And do all who believe, believe the same thing? Or did they war over it - even in Christendom.
Quite a lot, actually.
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@trinityprofessor They have to understand who He IS FIRST, and what it all means - and that somewhat relies on you explaining, and embodying Him, correctly, yes?
And after how APPALLING, nay, DESPICABLY they were treated across much of Europe, for centuries on end, by Priests, Inquisitors, several Popes and an number of papists, in Spain, and elsewhere, why should they trust your offers? Will thou at least explain WHY ALL of it was necessary?
And had they ever had any experience, either, or expectation, that God was at all divisible, into three parts, or would ever use a form of human sacrifice, again?
And once again, I note that sin, ignorance and dissatisfaction, plus evil and suicidal pride - all began FIRST in heaven; which is it itself, rather, rather curious. Almost... inexplicable.
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Also, are they the SAME or different, to spirits, and what is a 'souled man', and do not early Biblical terms conflate soul, with breath? So a dead person HAS no soul, until breath is added back into it, perhaps, @Gadae Habib ? Say, on the perfected Earth, ala Revelations...?
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@studentofthesaviors.o.s Then this God has REALLY screwed up His messaging, if that was supposed to be the obvious take away from it.
I mean, first He doesn't know angels are going to rebel, then that Adam doesn't know enough to chose for others - maybe that you don't let more rebel angels come down where they can breed with people (Enoch, assuming canonical) or that you CANNOT leave major clerics and church leaders unsupervised, too? Especially Augustine, and his little slant on 1 Corinthians 10, maybe.
And who is this WE? Those at Babel? So He DESTROYS their oral history, scatters then, leaves them even MORE ignorant about the disguised rebel angels He equipped and dumped here, and lets THEM wield their fairly unimpaired, powers, and will, on the further impaired people?
For building a bloody tower to heaven, that would never have reached it? He could have done ANYTHING with them, with patience - taught them, led them, schooled, demonstrated, had them tend the land, etc.
Yes, it's NEVER his fault or responsibility, is it - despite he can see the future, and we can not.
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Dunno, is there a verse saying you can buy, sell and bequeath to relatives, non Hebrew 'servants' or prisoners of war, and keep them for life - or coerce captive Canaanite women to marry? Or to slay non Hebrew babies, ala 1 Samuel 15, Hosea 9 and Numbers 31 (keeping only virginal women) and that Matthew 5:18 leaves OPEN the idea, of death penalties for other, broadly defined things, @Maheen Munir ?
My offhand recollection, I recall - is yes. So yeah, a bit of a dicey issue.
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And WHY WAS that, and why was Satan OWED any access, to this world, @Owen Communications ?
And if Adam was NOT to know what good or evil was, or death, or the stakes beyond to two lives, or that God even had enemies - then what knowledge, was he meant, to have, with which to protect, a world?
Also, when was any angel ever impaired before birth, in a similar way, as those post Fall?
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Swap out Christianity for Christendom (whatever THAT was meant to be) and we're nearer to the core issue. Including about them reviving slavery, and it not being sorted out (for whatever reason) by the One who claims to value opposing injustice and suffering. Well, some types, anyway.
And as for anti-semitism, it did seem to run quite rampant, often times.
As well as frankly garbage interpretations of the Curse of Ham - again, badly quality controlled, even by Jehovah, it seems.
And the Soviets also practically WORSHIPPED Lenin and Stalin, so they were not so far off being a religion themselves. And their supposed utopianist creed was a protected dogma, plus they sought to control the press...
And the core tenets are often worryingly vague, including Romans 13:1.
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@Damian-ni2jy And? Might I remind you, the ONLY reason ANY HUMAN is in danger is because these deranged angels kept their powers, and had ACCESS to this world - and Adam and Eve knew NOTHING about them, or the stakes, from what many can tell, beyond to two, lives.
And why in this vast cosmos is this world the ONLY one they can be exiled to? Out of many planets, dimensions, realms, layers of heaven, Sheol and more?
And when the Fall STOLE any conscious awareness most humans have of WHICH and how many gods exist?
So at least answer why they retained any powers.
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@Damian-ni2jy And WE'RE NOT by inheriting a SIN NATURE through NO CHOICE of our own?
And for the last, bloody, time - HOW much of nature, and human nature, and human sexual nature, for one, was ALTERED in the Fall, or adjusted, or corrupted, by Satan, or by Adam? Because we here a LOT of broad assumed, poorly labelled and poorly explicated things, about THAT, even unto today. As well as what people can 'choose', or not.
Can a Jew choose to trust you over his parents, also?
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@Damian-ni2jy And having no experience with God being DIVISIBLE, or using human sacrifice again, and with their teachings, and those Mossiach prophecies a lot of you, have not wholly, read - how many Jews were going to accept, this radical new methodology and soteriology, after hearing so much that God's ways, do not, ever, change?
And goodness knows how a 'natural man' (impaired from birth?) was to process the idea. Or someone born with Down's Syndrome or other developmental difficulties.
I suppose, then, they must wait, to be 'convicted' by the Spirit, to learn if they are, 'spiritually dead'? (and of course, Gandhi and many others, simply, do not count?)
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@anasemgema Sin did NOT begin FIRST on this world, did it, though? It began in heaven.
And it need not have REACHED this world, at all. At least by the vector of a deranged rebel angel with no real right or earned trust, to be here, and by two IGNORANT people with no idea of good, evil, death, or the wider stakes.
And it already did get confused - FATALLY confused - across large parts of Europe, in past centuries, and often to ruinous results, including d&mned pogroms.
POGROMS, woman.
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@c_sante_4041 You call that fair, you sick hypocritical twerp? We were not BORN yet, so we did, not, chose. And we were IMPAIRED in ways no angel ever was, so we couldn't even SEE these beings, or the 'true' God, who like many times, just sodded off before the hard work began - like He did in the Inquisition.
If that was not the case, then tell me how He FELT during that event, and why His hands, were tied.
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@ethandoyle4522 Erm, does John 14:12 apply to you guys or not, also? I mean, as far as credentials go, that one is hard to top. And would have smoked out any nutjob, errant, incompetent or deranged arch bishops, theologians, Popes or Inquisitors in no time flat, maybe. If they could not back up such credentials.
Strangely, they never had to abide by such, and so often had a somewhat freer ride. As did many into dungeons, as a result.
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@RedTape If they are fully visible attributes, in heaven, then what was the excuse for ANGELS to not all see or understand them? And they certainly are NOT wholly visible, here - nor can we instantly tell which bits of nature are as originally intended yet, pre Fall, or have been sabotaged, hijacked, perverted, etc. Some imaginary Pagans looking at nature, that Paul envisions, in that verse, are also not going to KNOW that bit of backstory, either. So which qualities should they look for?
Any in parasitic wasps, maybe, eating alive, caterpillars, from inside out?
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Tan Tan And can the 'natural man' do so, either? if they are BORN more spiritually crippled, to begin with, or think the ideas are silly to start with?
And is there a choice in being born a Jew, in say, Spain, at the wrong time? Or an African, at another? And what of Preterist views, on prophecies, or the Tyre contention?
Also, were gays even OFFERED the chance of a struggle or an attempt to change, in the past, when the church was at it's political and temporal HEIGHT in Europe?
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@melissa-c4x Odd, Melissa, I DISINTINCTLY remember Satan CAN GET into heaven, such as during the lifetime of Job, and to discuss his life. And to be in the Presence of YHWH, pretty directly. Yet he was impure, disloyal and sinful. And like all angels, knew fully what 'sides' were involved, and were never blinded by a sin nature, or inherited curse, or born into a world with a hidden god, and hidden rival gods, who can pose as gods.
And then, there are the assorted contradictions; and comparable glaring, omissions.
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@gia7650 What truth? Can you read Numbers 14:36, and 2 Samuel 15:18, please, or Hosea 9:12, and 13:16, and Joshua 7:24, and then chose to SUGARCOAT or not, it for me? Including about, well, endorsed, infanti-cide, or not?
And what IS the main issue, and why are FAILED angels dumped onto this world, keeping powers, at all?
From a realm that was meant, to be without flaw, and pervaded by the Spirit, of YHWH?
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@DarkSektori So the idea random ignorance, suicidal pride and dissatisfaction, plus desire to 'sin', just APPEARED randomly from nothing in heaven, is a much more solid premise, then? And that the two stewards of this world, would be told nothing useful of the event, or stakes to more than two lives, either?
Anyway, that's just one religious claim. There are plenty more, to process. A lot of what comes... afterward, I and a lot of others, are happy to leave open ended, anyway.
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@sii1100 Nice, but in practice, NOT how it often worked. They disagree on what is natural or not, who is a neighbour or not, and how much of the old law had 'not one jot or tittle pass' from it or not. And on Paul's views, Timothy, James, etc, etc.
And was Torquemada say, a Christian? Or merely believed to be, by many?
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@Çaesar How? tell me, how, they do it, and how much, is conscious, or volitional, or aware.
And not, say, influenced, by Satan. Meaning not, all of nature, is of a singular, author...?
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@4jgarner Is it? Is it, really - and WHY DID this distinction escape, SO many, invested priests, bishops, and theologians, and others, by say, 1500 AD? When going to Africa, etc? And why was resolving it a lower priority, than say, defining fully what transubstantiation is, a very abstract concept for ordinary people - at best.
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@4jgarner Or to not deal with it at all, I guess, on a national level, at times? I mean, even when whole verses are WEAPONIZED against people, by clerics, priests, theologians, Popes, etc? Certainly alarming, if so.
I just wonder why the standards have so drastically changed. Maybe it's all gotten too big for personal attention, like with one tribe, and a localized Ark in their proximity?
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Loves who, and loves who, equally, or not, though, @Kayla Moris - including Medieval Jews, often seeming, abandoned? To errant theologians, Popes, tortur-ers, err, etc?
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@Megatronix They exist - they have, existed, for 1600 years. As has variable Christologies, soteriologies, or variable readings of 1 Corinthians 10.
Accept, it, for now. It makes the idea of 'saving' people much more complicated to - as in, saving them, INTO, what...
And this God also so loved the world He PUT IT INTO DANGER in the first place? To 'prove' something to Satan, a demented, irrational angel?
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Why is that, and why are they perishing, and did they CHOSE to perish, @Lucas Henriques ? Or, did, Adam, 'chose', for them?
And IS there a pre-chosen, Elect, or not? And others, pre chosen, to be 'vessels of wrath' or not?
And why were medieval Jews, not apparently, so valued... equally.
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@lucashenriques4242 So, why is it foolish, then? And why do people THINK it is?
And often, it's not the CROSS they think is foolish (although this is still God torturing Himself, to appease Himself, over a situation somewhat created, by Himself) - it is rather more, the Eden story - incomplete as it may be - that seems foolish.
Omissions for this whole 'context' and situation, too, not withstanding...
Any angels ever 'chose' like Adam did, too - for each other? For ones not born, yet, either?
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@lucashenriques4242 Err, no, because He CHOSE to blind us, for what TWO people, did. And what is a 'natural man', anyway, ala 1 Corinthians 2:14? Who CHOSES to be born, a natural man, and what has that to do with, the 'natural' things we can supposedly look for, in Romans 1:20? had Paul MET any Pagans, at all? which of them are BORN knowing the Fall happened, or that a subcreator is responsible for the, bad, looking bits, of nature, or those that seem at odds, with other parts?
All you say is that SOME find it foolish - and not even which bits. This is still a God torturing Himself, to appease Himself, it seems, to many, for a crisis He created, Himself - with Adam somehow 'choosing', for us all, despite being barely aware of what's involved, and this being totally unlike how angels were given free will, used it, or what knowledge they were born with. So are some, predestined, to be vessels of wrath?
So you'll pardon me if it seems like more work, has to be done, for the background context, here.
One might ask how He FAILED to create, entirely sane or rational angels, or non-gullible, ones, too - or a heaven without any seeds for dissatisfaction, in it? It would seem somewhat comparably rational, to frame that view.
What would your words seem, to Gandhi, say? and would the Trinity - not even a fixed Christian idea, for hundreds of years - seem to James' the Just's followers?
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@davidmarshall9708 Excuse me, but are you Christian, either?
Have you openly fulfilled John 14:13?
I mean, neither Augustine, Luther, Paul III or Torquemada, to my knowledge, were required to.
Given their spotty history, how are people to know, you, for your own credentials?
And not all want, to do unquestioningly, say - the will evident in 2 Samuel 24. Or in Joshua 7:24 (to accomplices, of uncertain age, at least)
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@rubenmcrae6666 I see - and WHY COULD Satan BECOME god of this world, and did Adam ever, KNOW he could GIVE this being, this world, to be god of either, my friend?
Seems like a VERY strange arrangement, too, for 'free will' especially for those, NOT yet, born.
Why is Satan owed such things, or access, anyway? And why was any angel able to be blinded so in HEAVEN, in this God's, very presence?
Come back, please, when you can substantiate the remainder, of this implied claim...?
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Shall we move on from slavery, and religion focusing on charity and love, to the OTHER central issue of western religion? Which is sometimes called 'Brokenness'? Related to the 'sin nature'?
Now, inner peace, as a basic idea, seems to me, authentic. Being in touch with a higher self. Maybe a higher will. But if the only point of having free will is to use it to surrender to another will, why go to the trouble of giving it too us? And why does it still not end factionalism between Churches?
Then comes what I call the Bad News, which is awareness of 'brokenness'. it seems the Bible itself can no LONGER, by itself, clearly define or convince what brokenness is, in an entirely evenhanded and applicable way.
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@Ronald McDonald What, like Augustine may have done? And Gregory XIII, possibly Calvin, too, and Torquemada?
But they... got away, with it. And had NO DIRECT intervention offered on it, unlike in Numbers 15, at the trial, for Sabbath breaking. So, was that a one off thing? And what, by default, would happen to gay people, also, post Matthew 5:18? There was no mention of any - curing - back then... as anything to even offer.
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First tell me how ANGELS EVER stray from 'natural' traits, or behavior, or satisfaction, in heaven, perhaps, @khaluaPJ ? And if Numbers 31:17 describes not only natural, but CONSENSUAL affection, in the weddings it describes or not?
And who gave Torquemada or Gregory XIII over to desires, and influence, too, be it sinful or otherwise.
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@andyscott15 So why didn't He guide errant priests, bishops, Popes and theologians (and kings) KNOWING they'd need supervision, post Ascension? And what right have He to be king of Israel, having spent not even one day literally reigning it - or perhaps, looking out for the safety of it's citizens, in Spain, Italy, etc, within Christendom?
And what happens by default to gay people post Matthew 5:18, either, given precedent of fate for 'witches', for many centuries.
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What 'works' are these then, which are UNIQUE to Christians meaning could ONLY be enacted, as 'works', by Christians, and not OTHER people.
And what exempts YHWH or Jesus, from key works of their own, or showing consistency on what they DO claim to care about, or not.
(Though to call a number of chapters from, ah, Numbers, consistent, is kind of silly)
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@andreasmunzer1143 Also, when is slavery, in ALL it's forms, explicitly, and unambiguously, condemned, in the Bible?
Also, when is sexual consent, spelled out in full context, for Numbers 31:17, and the captured virgin women mentioned there?
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@NolanAnderson Yes, the one that one third of all angels also couldn't understand/get/grok/comprehend in a realm where they lived under His very nose, and where it was presumably pervaded by Spirit, Knowledge and Presence? Pre Revolt, I mean.
Also, how were any Pagans to know what bits of nature got meddled about with pre Fall, and pre a Glass Darkly or Labor pains?
What is the difference between a rogue subcreator affecting nature, and it being the work of multiple gods?
And we might count Adam and Eve in that rogue subcreator category, potentially, too.
They key is that nature, VISIBLE, outward nature, alone - is somehow enough to demonstrate this.
Without a backstory.
So how?
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Then how many lies precisely got told by Paul, or others? And in WHAT DAY exactly, of eating of the fruit, did Adam or Eve, ah, die, @Tony LovesGod ? Also, had they any idea what death WAS yet, even - nor of the stakes beyond to their two lives alone, that they were suddenly, ah, apparently 'choosing' for, in terms of all humanity?
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Yeah, He was into politics - angelic politics, too.
And YOU LET HIM SPEAK, You let Him say, HOW HE FELT, about the Spanish Inquisition, and assorted pogroms, wars, slavery apologetics, etc, within the church - at the TIME, they happened, perhaps, @Teresa Welcome ...
As I ain't reading the 'wisdom' of Numbers 31:18, again - on, sexual.... matters.
Now, why was HEAVEN EVER unstable, too...
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@teresawelcome8354 Well, showing favouritism to some tribes over others, seems like part of it.
And what was more important - a Sabbath breaker, in Numbers 15:32, be shown guilty, and put to death - or that assorted ERRANT or dangerous theologians, Popes, priests and Inquisitors, could run riot, at will, and persecute, or torture many, for centuries...
And what of omissions, too...
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@Çaesar Go out of what way? You mean maybe to live the lifestyle their parents, priests or contemporaries, in their tribes, taught them? The ones people were scattered into, post Babel, and of which most we never hear of, again? And I'm waiting for an answer on that Matthew 7:18 issue, and glory.
As well as how 'free' the gift really is, globally, considering the above, and how mutable nature, and sexuality, and other things, are, post Fall?
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An agnostic is fine with simply saying we 'do not know'. And knowing much of it is a work in progress, including inflation, quantum geometry, Rindler and other coordinates, singularities, Brane cosmology, and so on. So may not be 'nothing'.
But on the other hand, how does sin arise in angels, from NOTHING? Or must it be preceded by ignorance, disconnection or delusion, among them?
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@rubenmcrae6666 Will you tell, us, then, if Adam, KNEW, he could, at ANY point, GIVE Satan the Stewardship, or control over a world, or that MORE than two lives, were at stake, in Eden, over the fruit - all this, before my having any real idea if he even KNEW what death, was, let alone good, or evil.
So would threat of death, even deter his choice.
Also, this God takes GREAT care to make SURE a man who violated Sabbath with aforethought, in Numbers 15, was sentenced to death - but takes NO such care, to make sure slavery is properly defined, negated and not backed by priests, later?
Is this another case of Him giving up whole churches, to Satan? As with nations, even...
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And why CAN THE GOD of this world, do, that, or BECOME EVEN, the god of this world, and did Adam KNOW HE COULD GIVE that being, this world, to be god of, at ANY point, whatsoever, @ruben mcrae . Your answer is insufficient, when it comes to full context, here.
And how was ANY ANGEL at all, 'blinded', in heaven, in the very PRESENCE of this God, either...?
Also, how did Jesus FEEL about the Inquisition, schisms, wars, pogroms, torture, or slavery apologetics, within Christendom, at the time... and not hundreds of years prior.
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@codymarkley8372 If, by, conformed, to His image, and doing what He does - does that include taking NO ACTION WHATSOEVER when churches schism, war, nations war, and POGROMS, Inquisitions, slavery apologetics, and antisemitism, become widespread, and encouraged, by senior priests, clerics, Popes, etc?
Taking far less action - if any at all - than compared to presenting testimony for a man to be put to death, in Numbers 15?
Because priorities, begin to look a bit odd - at that point.
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@codymarkley8372 Well, are people in Romans 9:22 oppressed? Being DESIGNED or destined, to suffer eternally, mostly not of their choice, sounds like being oppressed.
And why won't GOD DO IT EITHER - when it requires no more effort, than His grandstanding in Numbers 15:32, took?
When churches and errant bishops, and Popes, TURN on each other, persecute Jews, or spread torture, and slavery apologetics...
Kind of looks, like sleeping in, on those things.... He does...?
And, certainly seems like... He... broke... us. By His own, choice.
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@magicalpotato 12 - so, were Job's kids, Ham's kids, Esau, Middianites (including Mose's in-laws, maybe?) and Medieval era Jews, and pre Flood people, all loved to EQUAL degree, then? And all treated with similar, well, CARE?
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@christopheroluwasona66 What a curious thing to say, after many influential Church leaders WERE PERMITTED to make their own doctrines, and DECIDE how Matthew 27:25 and 1 Corinthians 10 should be interpreted, including about what becomes of Jews or not, or if they all 'collectively refused' Jesus, or invoked a curse, upon themselves? As well as all those slavery apologists by the circa 1500s AD, surprisingly emerging, so widely. And incidentally, how DOES sin and angelic ignorance, like the Big Bang, just HAPPEN or spontaneously emerge, in heaven, for one third of the entire angelic population - no less?
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bigpigslapper Oink And who made the flesh, again, and were we meant to have it, or not? And how much of it was corrupted or not, by Satan, or Adam? And how much, too, of visible nature - that we are assured, clearly shows the hand of only ONE creator, per Romans 1:20? Then how precisely, does it, or not.
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You see, my parents, and my friends, and even the 'natural men' - I can always SEE them, and discuss things two way. And they do not accuse me, for doubt, or asking supposedly 'irrelevant' questions, like on why any souls would be put at risk, to begin with - or why a 'cure' for gay people would be introduced, only so belatedly, after many were likely put to death...
So I still have a fair number of loose ends to resolve, sorry.
And is there a choice in being born a Jew, in say, Spain, at the wrong time? Or an African, at another? And what of Preterist views, on prophecies, or the Tyre contention?
Also, were gays even OFFERED the chance of a struggle or an attempt to change, in the past, when the church was at it's political and temporal HEIGHT in Europe?
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@ww.mochii Well, more significantly, what HAPPENED to assorted gay people between 800 AD and 1700 AD, in Christendom, as a result of Matthew 5:18? Was it all encompassing, or not, and since Jesus never much addressed the topic of them directly, what then, by default, did many senior clergy refer to, if they encountered them? It would be informative to know, for me, at least.
I mean, look at how much trouble came out of long term uncertainty about what the 'biblical term' for slavery, was, for one. And see also the word arsenokoitae.
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@soph4702 Then what were angels created to be, and how did any of THEM devolve, or become ignorant, gullible, capable of dissatisfaction, and suicidal pride? All in a realm where the invisible qualities of God were wholly visible, no less, and even more fully understood.
And did women in Numbers 31:17 leave their parents, to become one flesh? No - they were TORN from them, involuntarily, and compelled, to marry. Curious.
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@legend-mj4gv Oh, and also the four pillars, and the word 'khuug' (a little ambiguous in old Hebrew) also, which may mean 'round and flat'. Plus all the firmament claims, with water above in vast amounts...
And king of what - including Israel? But He didn't spend any time there governing, or being king, and not all saw Jesus as being disfigured the same way the mossiach texts implied. Then, per times of later pogroms and an Inquisition, He didn't seem to do all that much, about it...?
I know important things, like using the wrong incense in a ceremony (Numbers 16:46) or gathering wood (Numbers 15:32) and hiding loot (Joshua 7:24) may be deserving of His direct attention - but surely there was more?
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@dawnthenightlight9095 Still a bit selective. And how consensual were those marriages, in Numbers 31:17? Also, when is infanti-cide, ever valid, be it in Joshua 7, Numbers 16:27, Hosea 9:12, or 1 Samuel 15:3, or 2 Samuel 15:18?
And why would He allow so many, changes, to occur - and long before that one, too, like the word 'typoi' in 1 Corinthians 10...
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It's the system this God set up in the first place, though - with VERY detailed instructions on animal sacrifice, no less, and claiming to LIKE the smell, or burnt flesh, too, @renegade637 ...
Also, this God ADMITS there were other Gods, pre Exodus (and during it) and also leaves Hebrews for centuries, in slavery, then expects instant unswerving trust or awe...?
And by 1572., maybe forgets about many of them, anyway... also, don't forget Romans 13:1...
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What, and also show His possible NEGLECT, too, of medieval Jews, who lacked a lot of basic rights, safety, protection, etc, even from supposed Christian priests, at times, @Astro ?
Sorry, but I am a bit... concerned, about the precedent.
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@Draco - we cannot EASILY have dominion over anything if we DON'T know the whole story, equally, do we? Or how this God REALLY feels about antisemitism or slavery, or the Curse of Ham, etc, etc. But that was DENIED to many, many, many Europeans, and Africans, and others, in favor of the 'free will' for perverted, errant, theologians, bishops, Popes, Inquisitors, and even translators? Apparently long debates on transubstantiation, literalism and heresy counted MORE than sorting out all of that, or sectarian wars, poverty, schisms, and slavery apologetics.
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@leilat2012 Okay, but what is this based on, what did He do AFTER popping off into a cloud, and why did He NOT SEEM to care equally what happened to many Medieval, European Jews, within Christendom - or many Africans, slaves, peasants, gay people, etc, etc...
How much of the assorted sects, churches, denominations etc are 'given over to delusion' or to Satan either, etc etc...
As many try, to claim.
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@MC_MMV Yes, that was by design, wasn't it? Adam knowing nothing about good, evil, death or the wider stakes, in Eden, for example, yet 'choosing' for all of us. And why is ANY form of torture or bloodshed, needed to forgive people, again? Given Adam seemed intended to fail, also.
And if to sin means, to err, then was the mark missed, in how heaven, was initially designed? Given that too, was seemingly flawed, divided, etc?
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Also, as I see it, it was still TWO people who did not want to be controlled, in Eden, somehow spiralling into people not being sure God, or at least, which one, even EXISTED (despite what Paul somewhat ingenuously argues, at times, on this topic, in Romans and 1 Corinthians)
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@nathanjuste6778 I mean it CLEARLY wasn't a priority in prior centuries to keep the book from being distorted, in many cases, was it - and so salvation, the initial jeopardy, and context of both, and the 'free' gift, was NOT offered, equally, worldwide, as a result. Nor safety for European Jews and others, or how Leviticus 25 'should' be interpreted, for sure.
So yeah, if you wish, say that 'Catholics are not true Christians' - but know this does not, cut, a lot of ice, with me. Romans 13:1 included.
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Okay, if you will CLARIFY what was consensual or not in Numbers 31:17, regarding the captives taken there, and what became of them? Plus, Leviticus 25:46? And why COULD Satan, a sinful, delusional, treacherous angel, ever get BACK into heaven, to discuss Job's life, exactly?
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@Pastafarian And is authoritative how to buy and bequeath slaves, beat them near to death, occasionally sell daughters (your own, or daughters of the slaves) and endorses infanti-cide several times over, even it seems, in Joshua 7:24 and Jeremiah 2:30.
And was Torquemada, Gregory XIII and Augustine (at his most errant moments) meant to have authority, or not? Or Calvin, Luther, etc. At their most ranting and antisemitic, even.
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Yaaawnnn - why would God once again SOWETH HIS own rivals onto this world, or COMPETE with HIMSELF again, and take NO RESPONSIBILITY for the BILLION plus people born as Catholics, who are not going to, ah, know, about this counterfeit, @Miles Son of Jesus true god and king of israel ?
Also, why should Jews, for another example, EVER trust you, at mere words - and do you also, have any, powers, like apostles, once did?
Also, how do two ignorant people 'give' Satan anything, let alone a whole world.
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@DoomYourGameAndMusicDeveloper How do they do that, then? How did ordinary, controlled, ILLITERATE mostly laypeople, do that? If the text was not even usually translated outside of Latin, and all of the choices of compiling and editing and translating it, or what to leave out, was made by senior, un monitored clerics? Also, when those Israelites were SUFFERING across Europe, subject to forced conversion, exile, mobbing, torture or assault, in pretty much, literal, pogroms, what then, did He DO - as King, of the Jews? Having spent a few days, in that role, literally, circa 33 AD?
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@Pastafarian I mean which Bible, which translation, and which wordings, plus which interpretations? Given the harm just ONE word interpretation (typoi) did in 1 Corinthians 10 to the ENTIRE Jewish people later, in Christendom, due to Augustine's interpretation - and then carrying over to Luther, Calvin, and eventually Torquemada, who treated them worse and worse.
And what context SHOULD 1 Corinthians 10 have been, or Leviticus 25:46, since it was FULL of loopholes, and basically useless by 33 AD anyway? Maybe it should have been revoked, just in case.
And what, by default, happens to gay people in Christendom after Matthew 5:18, historically - and in, context.
Also, is there context that makes Genesis 30:37 meaningful, literal, or relevant, rather than just a strange story on breeding colorful animals? And how old were Achan's children, and did they share his fate.
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@scottsmith3236 Kept for life, being able to be beaten, bequeathed to a relative, or compelled to marry them. And treated radically differently, than a Hebrew treated, another. Also, if that was not true slavery, BUT the Leviticus 25 and Exodus 21 verses were so EASILY going to get perverted later, then why not, simply, disinvoke them, when the New Dispensation arrived? And make it very, very clear, they'd never be relevant, again?
Upon loopholes hang many a catastrophe, historically.
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@tl8042 Also, yes, we DO KNOW about the indentured servant claim, and it does not seem to fit with the unequal treatment of non Hebrews implied in Leviticus and Exodus 21. Given such, and the women too, can be kept for much, much longer, than a Hebrew can - even unto LIFE, and be bequeathed, to one's relatives. They may marry them, as they wish. This seems a bit odd - if they can also be beaten very NEARLY to death, too. An odd kind of servant role, by many means. And why was it EVER okay to have sex with a relative, or stone KIDS (which YHWH apparently ENDORSED MULTIPLE times, in past verses) if that was not how creation was meant to go? You are saying then, that God DOES tolerate or even USE some evil, at times?
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@Çaesar Neither is angels with no flesh nature and any ignorance of God's existence, or nature, becoming ignorant, self destructive or sinful, fully natural, also? We could maybe do, with more, info on that, first, perhaps.
Also, why would God ever want to LOSE? To make a species, and lose most of it.
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@bruhservices5942 There is potential for good, in all, yes. I think the idea of human Brokenness can be insidious, though, and raise up people who THINK they have reformed, and fixed character flaws, whilst CONDEMNING those who express, say, their love, a certain way, or be born into the 'wrong' religion.
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And what about when He DOESN'T reply to some people, even some who BEGGED to speak with Him, or for help, or some who begged, to not be gay, say, @Icy Brown ?
And was the trial of ONE sabbath breaker, in Numbers 15:32, of GREATER significance and moral importance, if I may ask, to YHWH and Jesus, than CENTURIES of wars, torture, pogroms, and a Spanish Inquisition? Or priests making slavery apologetics, to Africans, or others...?
After all the former, also, why should Jews, now take Christians seriously - often solely, at verbal claims...?
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@IcyBrown Sorry, in the view of many of us, INACTION is as meritable of comment, as any action, in cases like that, and knowing it was going to happen, too. And many DID FEEL it was wrong, or their past condition, etc - but STILL often did not get, an answer.
And anyway, those things above, were par for the course, in 1 Samuel 15, Hosea 9, and Zephania...
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@IcyBrown Did I miss any crucial points? I am trying to further communication, here, I guess...?
Maybe, in a less prone to potential, horrific error, that 1 Corinthians 10, may - and I say, may - have led to, between Christians, and Jews, etc...?
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I am trying, I suppose, to grasp all of this, but it seems like it wasn't even a major PRIORITY to sort out, or not, if they'd even be spared, or put to death, or not, until recently. Nor do Paul, Peter and James ever say much on the idea of Christians ever GOVERNING much of the world openly, prior to the latter days; let alone a near empire.
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@RedTape So, how do you feel about coerced marriages of captives, by the way? Or owning, or bequeathing people, to your relatives - for life? Also, how does YHWH feel about, err, infan-ti-cide... given some historic verses, of some major import....?
And why was heaven ever unstable, to begin with, again?
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@justdoubled7841 I've heard it all before, pal - and fell WHAT ROUTE, how far, and keeping WHAT powers, and why.
And there is an ENTIRE UNIVERSE, with many, many, many worlds out there, many empty, too, likely, to exile him to - so, why, this one? And telling Adam, nothing, about it either. And if He'll burn or torment some for eternity, as many say, why would He mind what a FEW angels, think.
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@andygaspe6138 NOTHING, not ONE thing, has EVER looked as CHAOTIC as your shifting, feuding, clunky, inept, dillettante churches trying to make POLICY from a book they constantly argue about - and many, many, many, MANY people across the last 1000 years paid quite a HEAVY price, for this... teething set... of fault testing, foraging in the dark ineptitudes...
And ALWAYS blamed on 'humans are imperfect' and 'God allows free will' (a much, much abused and shifting term in theological circles)
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Being not a Christian, it does also make me, somewhat sad, so many people, do not see, how messed up 2 Samuel 24, is. Or Deuteronomy 21:11, and Exodus, 21:2-7?
As it, were, @Yes1334kr . So far.
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@B3llaaaaaaavm Well, frankly, you and I see differently on Hosea 9:12-16, Zephaniah, 1 Samuel 15:3, and other crimes. And if to sin is to err, or fall short - well, I think heaven, and angels, needed more work, frankly.
Given the results. What went wrong with THEIR version of Romans 1:20, thin as it is...
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@madeleinepembelton1492 Only potentially. I mean, as Jesus barely mentioned them, and then Matthew 5:18 was referenced in detail by him, and Paul, and others - then they were potentially in heightened danger than some other people would be, in later Christendom.
I mean, we already KNOW that partly as a result of Matthew 5:18, many accused of being 'witches', or labelled as such, would often face summary arrest, trial and often quite rapid, execution, also. Therefore we cannot, without more detail, be sure if the same often happened in medieval Europe and beyond, to many LGBTQ, and so forth. It is, as I said, a loose end, where many may have been left hanging in the wind, under-protected.
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@maybelsunset7812 Eh, fair's fair - many of us could not, and do not really WANT to, get rid of ANYONE - although many do worry at just how wildly variable Christians are, in terms of churches, sects, denominations, and some more extremist or confused outlooks, of some. Many would at least hope there was clearer view of central command, in all this? And maybe less of the 'natural man' questionable labels - or how 'all humans are flawed, even believers' to excuse what looks like very variable and messy historical events, within churches?
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@nomad_cat1 And if that did not work, what then? Would they endure enforced metanoia? Or be 'slain in the Spirit' as our American cousins often say, in an attempt to overwhelm their instincts? Would some kind of erratic, and still rather controversial, conversion therapies be tried, either?
And what of all the animal species that also feature homosexual behavior, from time to time? Are they less natural, in this case, or not - and was some parts of nature impaired, hijacked, or derailed, post Fall, if so?
Also, a real Christian just might have a unique relationship with John 14:12, but that topic is too far ranging for now, probably.
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And use YOUR brain, too, please.
If you are not, to fulfil, John 14:12?
Romans 1:20 is suspect, for one.
It was invalidated by 1 Corinthians 2:14, 2 Corinthians 4:4... the 'Fall', the 'Glass Darkly', and James 3:15.
All of that adds so much small print, to the concept, that it may as well be meaningless, to many, many people.
Plus, sin began, in heaven. Not Earth.
And Earth instead... became a realm to... gestate, sin, in?
Well, as awkwardly guarded, as it was by Adam and Eve (who lacked much knowledge...) how then... could it have been anything else?
But people are not born knowing which and how many gods exist, and what is 'natural' is no longer what was initially designed.
So you may need to be more precise, here.
Also, why should Spanish Jews trust your opinion... or descendants, of African slaves, either...? @ezekiel440
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Fulfil John 14:12, please, then, I suggest?
Since, it's amazing how MANY would be Christians, got to run churches... sects, denominations, and make, entire policy... for whole nations (and, for Spanish Jews...?) for centuries:
But never, had, to fulfil... that verse.
Was that possible, to do, then? @jordanlandsaw7263
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But not slave trading, in contrast, or a blood libel on Jews, or an Inquisition?
Or at very least, @thechristianway5865 - He'll be, quite quiet, or discreet, or relatively inactive... when those happen, for a while? They will not, be, so obviously, seen as abominable?
Also, what is, a wicked plan - and does 2 Samuel 24:1-16, count; or Judges 9:23, or Jeremiah 25:29? And maybe, Judges 21:14, too?
I assume there are, special exemptions, though, in those cases (and in sowing dissension, too - see Judges 9:23, again)
Also, can there be a witness, to how Satan, got to revisit heaven - in time of Job? Or just, an account, say?
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Well, I can appreciate that somewhat. But hypnotism, enthrallment and hypnagogic experiences have all existed, so I tend to base things on the exchange of INFORMATION and relations of trust, rather than JUST the feelings. Sometimes I wish I did not, but it seems to be the surest way.
Given all the VERY VARIED messages people have claimed to receive, or be sent by spirits, some endorsing racial beliefs of hierarchic races, cross-breeds, or claiming the world is flat.
I do believe it has not always been this... divisional, though.
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Shall we ASK HIM directly how He feels about it, now then, as well as compared, to say, pederasty, @Grace T ?
Also, how marriages in Numbers 31, were, ah, conducted, precisely?
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Of course, it would be really nice to know what He travelling to, or doing, in the Spanish Inquisition, say, @R Yohn , or ah, doing about it. To know who was following Him best, then, that is.
This would be useful, to know, maybe.
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@benice7514 I'm not disputing that many abolitionists were Christian, however (although there were many varieties of Christian, therein, anyway) But I am disputing that 'nonbelievers' did nothing, per your other reference.
And conversely, a number of clerics acted against abolition, too. Plus, what of the previous two or three hundred years, back to when slavery first entered into vogue at all, within Christendom?
That may say more about the higher policy and plan, than the individuals involved, however.
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Well, it's nicer, than being chosen people, in 2 Samuel 24, anyway.
Now, that, was nasty. Nor, did it altogether look, like loving all, the same?
Or, Bathsheba's first baby, too...? @brinceleste8985
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@sunkyokim6052 Pardon me, but if He HATES sin, why did He EVER LET SATAN back into His presence, to hear his likely DELUSIONAL opinions, on the loyalty of Job, or other people? And why would this monomaniacal, disloyal, suicidal angel, CARE what God thought, by that point, either?
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@MisfitMandy Incorrect, or schisms, divisions and ambiguities, would not have arisen.
Ask some children also - they could think of some fairly simple points.
For one, HOW much of nature, post Fall, is under partial control or influence of Satan, or not?
And why were any angels ignorant enough and delusional enough, to ever think he could win a Revolt, and why would any of them be able to CONCEIVE of dissatisfaction, in heaven, within the Presence of God, anyway? That is meant to provide complete peace and satisfaction?
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@MisfitMandy What truth? The book with gaps in it? That endorsed slavery, massacres, inherited curses, bequeathed slaves, coerced marriages of POWs, and indirectly led to centuries of almost none stop, none corrected anti Semitism?
And it was TWO PEOPLE making that 'choice' - unware of wider stakes beyond to two lives, and of good, evil, or even death, it would seem. I wonder if any ANGEL has ever had an equivalent degree of 'choice' over their OWN brethren not yet born, in deciding their loyalties, to God? Who they were all well aware existed, and had no impairment of knowledge of Him passed down to them genetically? Or had to vie with disguised rival gods competing for their tribal control?
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@MisfitMandy I find that is the best way to explain why things went so WRONG in prior centuries - that suddenly the 'Discernment', guidance and involvement, suddenly went AWAY a lot - and schisms, interpretations and more, continued. How many could not EVEN interpret, in context, the line about 'storing up burning coals' or the eye of the needle, without DETAILED knowledge of Hebrew culture, writings and background details? Yet they were banning the Torah often, burning or forcibly converting or driving out Jews, across much of Europe, and utilizing Leviticus 25 and the curse of Ham and Exodus 21 to justify some VERY curious acts, indeed. And there was no obvious active correction or intervention going on, in relation to much of it.
And no, most of us would not have suddenly 'chosen' to become Catholic or whatever - we went with what the people Paul SAID God had put into power over nations, generally ordered.
So we need the TRUTH a little more clear cut, and less figurative, if many of you are NOT going to reliably Discern it, yet alone translate it all the same, and explicate it all the same.
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@Rocknroll-ig5iy Numbers 5:11 also - don't forget.
Also, He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. Ephesians 1:4-5
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. 2 Timothy 1:9
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation. Jude 4
Equal free will, and love, indeed.....?
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@Pitts DaThird SOME versions of God, yes, potentially. The basic idea that all could have a CREATOR in a higher dimensional manifold, I've never really discredited, outright.
But why THIS ONE, and this model? And flying in the face of what is USUALLY said about carbon dating, geological layers, fossils, sea levels, and how long humans have REALLY been around for?
And look up Gobekli Tepe. Even Jericho. People were thought to live there TEN THOUSAND years ago, almost.
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@travispool2984 So what should happen to Jews post Matthew 27:25, then? And what is a prefiguration, or a Pesher, or Bible code? And when did the curse on Ham's line end? Also, why did it take so long to resolve what sort of slavery was permissible or not?
And were gay people to be put to death, or not...
Also, what did the fruit REALLY do to people, and what is, 'spiritual death'?
If there was absolute certainty, the answers, across Christendom, would surely look way more uniform, than they are, for the last 1000 years.
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@sunkyokim6052 My standard is to try to help keep people SAFE and happy. I imagine omniscience and omnipotence does that even better. I'm also not aware I'd blame an ENTIRE race, for generations to come, for just rejecting this new version of Me, come among them, and then having their city (Jerusalem) destroyed a few decades later, making them even more disconnected. Anyway, I think I'd certainly not PUT TO DEATH messengers, just for reporting bad news, either, even if it did lead to squabbling and some threatening to stone the expedition leaders (see Numbers 14)
And I'm quite fond of Marcus Brigstocke, Terry Pratchett and others, thanks. Michael Palin, too.
Given sin is a partial construct, and means 'to miss the mark' at root, it has of course, become a wee bit subjective, over the ages.
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@sunkyokim6052 No, it's the standard of righteousness a PARENT WOULD have to their CHILDREN, allowing them to learn, safely, make mistakes, and not grotesquely punish them for it, or chuck them into dire things before they are ready. And who are the ELOHIM (grammatical root, plural) And which one was raging like a demented hissy bipolar nitwit, in Numbers 14:45, or not. I need EXPANSION of such examples.
And we know even many PRIESTS do not understand Christian doctrine, argue about it to this day, and failed in some crucial historical moments, over it, also. And given the shear DAMAGE one word can do, out of place, in a translation (typoi) - it makes things more messy than it could otherwise have been.
Yet still, it seemed, less worthy of intervention than gathering sticks on Sabbath (that we now cannot all agree what day it is even on, post Advent)
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And, err, maybe YOU are not, either, @Christian I ? How are people to tell? Does John 14:12 enter into your life, much? And did it enter into Calvin's, Augustine's, or Torquemada's lives, either? How, are ordinary people, to know what a true Christian, is.
Especially back when hardly any could read your scripture.
So I trust the old guy will resemble Christ when he can do some of what He did, maybe. This would at least, be somewhat more straightforward.
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@andreasmunzer1143 Sure, you just clarify Numbers 31:17, and sexual CONSENT for me, as well, will you?
Also, what parts of nature have or have not been altered, corrupted, or partly controlled by Satan, since his Fall, and by extension, what things are, or are not, freely chosen, or experienced, naturally...?
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How do you feel about Jeremiah 2:30, 1 Samuel 15:3, 2 Samuel 12:18 and Leviticus 25:46, then, @brent polk ? Are they sinful? And is standing by and doing nothing about fruits of Leviticus 25:46 - in say, Spain - many centuries later, also sinful? Or about fruits of Matthew 27:25, too - a verse used to some degree with hyperbole, in the past of European Christendom?
And where too, does Exodus 32:14 fall into this, or Amos 3:6? But then, those are about evil - rather than sin.
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@iceblaze3043 Er, TWO people did, yes, who did not see aware of wider stakes, or who Satan was, or even what good and evil were, yet, correct? So who's actual choice was it? And thereafter, that made BOTH God and the DISGUISED rebel angels who can pose as 'beings of light' both equally invisible? And make it unclear WHICH specific creator this world, has? When Paul is not defining nature very variably, that is?
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Who sowed the Principalities, into this world, though, @ruben mcrae - and is not Adam SHOWN all of them, or they filed before him, at one point? Didn't this God KNOW some were insane, rebellious, or unreliable? Why does He equip His own rivals, exactly - and then tell Adam NOTHING of the wider threat, or stakes?
And didn't He LET THIS 'god of this world', blind people, with Adam and Eve the only ones, really having a 'choice' about it, and with very little knowledge to do so?
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@naria2224 You're the fawking expert on demons, mate, not, us. Wanna tell us how ANY ANGEL BECOME ignorant, delusional, capable of dissatisfaction and suicidal pride, in heaven, and gullible, too?
Yet STILL get, to KEEP powers, after being 'cast out' and "falling" (from where, to where, by what route, etc)
And have you ever MET a pagan, for that matter...
Now, go and read Hosea 9:12, and 13:16, and Numbers 5:11 - please.
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@Nate77701 Sorry, but Matthew 7:14, Romans 8:30 and Romans 9:12, does not convince me the 'Us' is a generalized, all of mankind kind of multitude, who is 'loved', up to this point.
If someone would further elucidate, that'd be nice. Also, how about Achan's sons, in Joshua 7? And his grandsons.
And what did happen to many gay people post Matthew 5:18, in Christendom - by default? For the first 900 years, perhaps?
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@RedTape Did this same care and consideration occur in past schisms, Pogroms, Inquisitions or sectarian wars, however? With many fairly powerless peasants caught up in the fighting, and having little choice? Or of many Jews, and their fate or not, post Matthew 27:25 and 1 Corinthians 10 - however worded or translated, it was? There was clearly some grounds, for confusion, there. And for how to apply Leviticus 25:46 in Africa, perhaps - for a long time.
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Sorry, and what were angels made for, precisely, in heaven, @you know it's ME ? And after the Fall, how much or not, of human nature, could Satan alter, or not? What indeed, IS fully and obviously, natural?
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@hindutero3900 Which bits of humanity? What of Jude 4, 2 Timothy 1:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:11, Luke 13:24, and Romans 9:11-22?
Back, up, your claims. Also, Esau, Ham's son, David's INFANT son, and Achan's sons and daughters - also, equally, loved?
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@daryagusarova2293 Liar. You read Numbers 31:18, the same as me, thanks. So REFLECT on that event, and if it looked 'detestable' or not. Or Joshua 7:24, 1 Samuel 15:3, and Hosea 9:12-16, thanks.
And were the lives and safety and rights, of medieval Spanish and Italian Jews, worth LESS or not, to this God, than other lives were... within His 'Christendom'...
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@Full Throttle You mean, He LEFT HIMSELF open to being harmed, which was the deal surely, anyway, in GIVING people free will, to begin with? Why should that surprise Him? Or is He still reeling in SHOCK from how one third of the angels inexplicably rejected, doubted or turned on Him, in heaven itself, and in His direct presence? And incidentally, it's a bit foolish to say we 'seek to be god' just when we chose how we think or relate about things, that we can see with our own senses, and try to grasp. He chose to become invisible, despite knowing Eve and Adam would obviously fail. That was His choice - as it was to leave them with so little knowledge with which to make choices, on being Stewards.
And was there, any command, at all, to try, to cure, gay people, until very, very recently? And decidedly on the non-official side, at that.
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In which one, which Christology, and why did He have to do it, @Alex Martinez ? Why, again, was Satan owed anything, and why was he trusted with more knowledge of good, evil and the wider stakes, than Adam? Who had the power to alter and impair an entire, not yet born, SPECIES? Unlike Satan (presumably)
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@Hector Cavazos Jr Tell that to Torquemada, Gregory XIII, Augustine, and others, then? Or to Jews, suffering under any of the former? Or peasants, sent off to war with each other? Or Africans, told rubbish about being born into a subservient role, due to an old inherited curse? Or gays, when priests CANNOT even agree on if nature is partially compromised by Satan or not?
And how long DID it take to fully define, and ban, slavery? or Anti Semitism?
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Tan Tan So, were the Old Laws to be FINISHED with, had they ceased to be of much use, once all were in the Body of Christ, slave and free, man and women, etc, even Romans - and how to convince ALL involved (including Jews) that was so, or why, if God's 'ways do not change'? Was there a NEED to keep Leviticus, Exodus or Judges past that point? Especially if they could be fatally misunderstood, for some people?
And I gather you don't care, but I'm not asking what Satan can do to YOU - I mean to the 'heathens', to the 'natural men' or to the bystanders, around the globe - hypothetically.
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@nunybznz7561 And HOW MUCH of human sexuality, is entirely, CONSCIOUSLY, chosen, again, and NOT corrupted, hijacked, or influenced, by Satan, or Adam, post Fall, exactly, again...?
And how do sexual mores compare over, say, potentially, COERCIVE marriage... of the Numbers 31:18 variety, perhaps?
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@nunybznz7561 Us? There was no US, in Eden, bub - there was TWO PEOPLE. And this almighty God, later, post Exodus, was foiled by IRON CHARIOTS. And could not tell who was travelling with Balaam, without sending angels down, to check.
And many in assorted tribes, cultures, etc, were FAR from broken, so I think you grossly simplify, many, many things, here.
And why should Jews ever trust, this indolent, Hammock slumming, INACTIVE God, during much of Medieval Christendom - here and now? Why did He care, less, of their plight? Or what by their 'free will' errant Popes, priests, bishops, and inquisitors, could mess up.
We cannot also SEE THIS Satan, or this god. Yet ALL ANGELS could, from birth, unimpaired, by a preposterous 'inherited curse'. I call foul.
Given 'corruption' also began, first, in this heaven, too - how inexplicable. And no, 'free will' isn't a good enough answer.
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@odilenoboa7428 When some ANGELS were born though, had THEY been born with a sinful or ignorant nature, and how, and why? And why would they EVER conclude Satan could WIN a revolt, or feel any need to have a revolt? Or keep any powers POST exile, and have any access to Eden, or to Earth?
Also, did Eve and Adam have any idea that more was at stake than their TWO lives, or that they COULD alter all human nature, or hand over partial control of the world to a being they may have had no idea existed? And if they were not to have knowledge of good and evil, then what knowledge, as Stewards of the Earth, WERE they mean't to have, to, well, fulfil their role? And protect Earth?
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See natural men, see answer not a fool to his folly, see avoiding contention, division, etc - and see 2 Corinthians 4:4.
Also, see not being 'unevenly yoked' or vomiting out, those not entirely compatible... (I do somewhat generalize here, to be fair)
But meantime, hey - schisms, gonna, schism.
So may not be literal, shunning, but is giving very cold shoulder to, often. @czarbuscus1475
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Why doesn't HE DESERVE hell or similar, then, for making BROKEN delusional and suicidally prideful angels, or letting 1 Corinthians 10 be SO BADLY written, to do IMMENSE harm to Jews in the 'wrong' hands, later, theologically wise, then, @Rishelle Dcosta ? Try and back that up a bit more please - ditto for Leviticus 25:46, which did not seem made 'no longer applicable' sufficiently.
If sin does indeed mean, 'to err'.
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But King of what? He didn't seem to spend even one, ah, YEAR, as King of Israel, and seemed to take less and less interest in what happened to Jews post 70 AD, and by 1572, they were being treated abominably, even by many Christians (or purported ones, at least) And no reunifying of schismed, or divergent sects and churches were occurring easily, either. So was some initiative being surrendered to Satan, or at least, Man, at the time, @james herrera ?
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Do rapists inherit the Kingdom? Do torturers, or apologists for them, and feudal wars, and continued slavery? What DID also become of the captives in Numbers 31:17?
And in your view, why did Satan retain any powers, post exile - or re-enter heaven, as in the Book of Job?
It is hard to be... deceived, when many do not even HAVE the entire contextual story, as yet. Nor a clear view of WHICH Christianity is most accurately Discerning the will of the Spirit, both now, and historically...?
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@studentofthesaviors.o.s UK. We've been through the crapola already, with feuding churches, wars, pogroms, slavery apologetics, and general shambolic consistencies. And most of us never chose it, either. We were BORN into it, with errant clerics given more free will, apparently, than their victims.
So apparently consistent, equal access to SANELY presented and logical... salvation (and why we are even in jeopardy, too, explained to us) is not equal, for all.
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@Chinglunmawi Tonsing - well, did you all, have it? And in Medieval times, did you have it then? And did sectarian wars, anti Semitism, blood libels on Jews, Inquisitions, and confusion on slavery or not, fail to arise? Except they did, confusingly. And were not rapidly resolved, either?
And why was heaven itself ever flawed or divided? Also, what is your view on inherited curses?
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And why is that? Also, what is this predrawn and predestinated business?
And did Numbers 15:32 SERIOUSLY rate more urgent, to Him, than the entire d*mn Western slave trade (lasted, 350 years) and the blood libel, upon medieval Jews... and the Spanish Inquisition?
And during which, would many European, and Spanish Jews, then, WANT... to call on Him.
Or expect, He would help? Who's, side, was He on... or did He, altogether, abstain?
Finally, define, Revelations, 13:8...?
(Also, we remember when He just, had to know, what silly Satan... thought of Job?
Or maybe, allegorically) @theparadigm8149
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Well, sometimes it is hard to know WHAT is believed, and why there are so many differences, and variations, different views of things like, say, the Fall, Brokenness, consciousness, free will, Delusion, Discernment, curses, possession...
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@Ommateum Sorry, that book's got a LONG way to go to make itself credible again, old stone chucker don't mix those fabrics, oh yes, you can bequeath those slaves - those women, keep for yourself - Romans 13:1, Samuel 15:15, and Leviticus 25:46 fellah Jehovah? That one, you mean?
Who impairs most humans before birth, in ways no angel ever was, before making their loyalty choices?
That God, in particular?
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What about the ANGELIC heart? What the f*** was going on, in heaven, to have a mass revolt, in this God's near DIRECT presence, and in a realm pervaded, perhaps, utterly, by His spirit, there, @kap849 ? What was the MATTER with them, or were they made ignorant, or delusional, or gullible? Where would they ever have conceived, of dissatisfaction, from?
Until that is resolved, please hold back on the pat statements, that are not as deep as they seem.
And maybe Adam should have been taught a bit more, before choosing, on behalf, of what form OUR hearts, would end us as.
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Sorry, to also save us from WHAT or WHO? And why did Satan get to keep any powers or reach this world? Plus, how do two Stewards of the Earth choose, meaningfully, for ALL humans to be separated from God, when not knowing what good or evil were, or the stakes beyond to the two of them, apparently? Also, how do they function as Stewards of this World, therefore?
And are people in 1 Corinthians 2:14 less able to be saved than others, and was their mind and will weakened by what Eve did? Were ALL of our minds and natures weakened? And did she KNOW she could do that - or transfer control of this world in any way to Satan (plus if he even was known to exist to her)
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Then COMPLETE it, first, without any translation errors, omissions or ambiguities, first, @CarsonShaver67 _ ?
And how many, per your reading of Matthew 7:18, and Luke 13:24, are even expected, to survive?
Also, per Numbers 31:17, how many marriages in that verse, were consensual...?
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@acemxe8472 If he is confident of his belief system, I'd really like to see him reconcile Numbers 21:6 with Matthew 7:9, preferably?
And maybe Romans 1:18 with any version of it that one third of angels experienced, in the part of nature, known as heaven.
Before a certain Revolt, that also is.
And I target the system, not the individual. The often, uneven, chaotic, system, of this 'broad term' that included Torquemada.
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If they did not KNOW they had this authority, or the scope of it, and how it would affect their children, then could they legally pass on this authority? To someone who did not need to exiled in reach of Earth at all, potentially? Also, Paul invoked certain categories of those he thought would never be amenable to alteration, later on.
So is the act of loving enemies mean't to always provoke change, or benefit the main group?
I recall the turning the other cheek had the handy benefit of forcing a Roman solider, say, to use his dominant hand to strike again, something only equals were permitted to do.
Not that relevant, but just an example of social nuances that can be lost in accounting.
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@kerchi9250 Can you bother to explain what was to happen to Jews post Matthew 27:25, or what occurs to gay people post Matthew 5:18? Does that mean they were to be... cured, or put, to death? And when did policy shift, from one, to another? Also, was the infant son of David, who died, painfully, whilst an infant, loved or not - and where does the verse on making 'pure and impure vessels' fit in? And why did many Popes 'mix stuff up'.
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@kerchi9250 why can he do, any of that, at all? Why did he keep, any powers? And why would near half the world, and half of Christendom, be given over to the 'wrong' church, Jews, under some of their mercy, included? And how can I know the context when it's presented so selectively or with omissions, of backstory? When I read of jealousy, pride, anger and liking the smell of burnt flesh, a picture can emerge at times, of some kinds of Gods. And what father would give kids stones - or rotten meat - and call it good? (To paraphrase Jesus) And was David's newborn child, too, in 2 Samuel, also so loved?
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@RedTape Was it their choice, to be unbelievers, by being BORN into other religions?
And why should any Jews trust you after their abandonment and neglect, to errant Christians, for CENTURIES, under many torturers too - you mouthy little, evasive, shill? Show me what this God, really, consistently, VALUES - beyond WORDS - to actual, action.
Such as turning up to ensure conviction and death, of Sabbath breaker, vs, other, larger issues, say.
And read a little C.S. Lewis too (Mere Christianity) before you make such presumptuous statements, perhaps?
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@RedTape And they chose to stay with the religion they are born with, maybe? Seeing no reason to leave it, or friends, family, priests, culture, home, etc? Or to stay in the sexuality they seem familiar with, from an early age? All these are supposedly insisted upon changes, for a 'free gift' - that is often not consistently followed up on, on how all of Christendom functions?
With or without pogroms, prejudice, slavery apologetics, antisemitism, hate-speech to gay people, conversion camps that frequently do not... work... etc...
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@Megatronix Always, the same, limp excuses? Take eyes off the ball, let the crucial religion schism, war, distort translations, KNOWING far ahead of time, this will occur - then blame humans? When 99.9999 percent of them had no idea that happened, or how?
And why was heaven ever flawed, either. Was homosexuality also part of NATURE 2.0, post Fall, that Romans 1:20 does NOT distinguish, about, regarding if more than one hand was behind it - or not?
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No - have YOU either, @Beaux Dup ? I'd say Genesis has a LOT that's NOT fully consistent with total free will, including inherited curses, spiritual impairment, from birth (that NO angel ever has apparently received, whether disloyal or not ) and no sign Adam KNEW he and Eve were, ah, 'choosing' for more than two lives? Or what good, or evil, or death was, or that God even had enemies, and that any threatening being could ever be in Eden?
And why was Satan OWED ANY access to them, before they really knew anything, pertinent, to protecting a world? And he also, ah, LOST no powers, had none taken away, and unlike humans, he and all other rebel angels, did not have TAKEN away, ah, innate knowledge, of which and how many Gods, were real?
How, exactly, hard is this, to understand, in overall framework?
And what SHOULD or not, have happened, to medieval Jews, post Matthew 27:25? Please think hard, prior answering, or directly ask... the Spirit?
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Just tell it to Achan's grandkids, too, @Steve Goldson .
Also, if you've the guts, or the ability, tell me their AGES too, in Joshua 7:24?
Then we'll see what else is dangerous. And 2 Samuel 24, say.
Also, when was Torquemada or Paul III tested, and to what degree? Or even Augustine, pre messing up 1 Corinthians 10 (as he interpreted, it)?
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@Nitesam But He KNOWS we can't do what He says, and nor can Adam, and He doesn't even KEEP CHURCHES guided or consistent, world-wide, either. Or avert schisms - or ah, pogroms, wars, slavery, Inquisitions, often BY senior clerics, enacting, them...?
And he 'haunts' us, this devil, because this God WANTED HIM to. That's what it boils down to. He chose to 'owe him' anything, or have him 'test people' in ways no angel ever was tested - and no angel could impair or make spiritually dead, other angels, before their birth, as Adam did to humans, either...
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So are you, maybe, @Anna A ? and so was Gregory XIII, Torquemada, or Calvin, surely. How progressive, or stable, were their own decisions?
Also, have you read Numbers 5:11, or not? And do consensual marriages, come up in, Numbers 31:17, or not.
Before we start on, wider, narratives.
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@Damian-ni2jy Damian, Damian - we need actual WORK here; and that includes some explanation of why YHWH would CARE what Satan thought of the loyalties of people not even BORN yet, to indulge him on any weird 'tests', and from a deranged, suicidal and disloyal angel, no less - who oddly, KEEPS his angelic powers, post exile.
Whilst Adam seemingly knew NONE of this, or of good and evil, or the stakes to more than two lives.
Also, were Medieval Jews considered less valued, by God?
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@hassanalialqadiri How do you feel about parenting? And is this God, a PARENT of ALL humans? Even though the 'nannies' in Eden consisted of two semi-ignorant humans, with no idea of wider stakes, and a snake, who was possibly a deranged, suicidally prideful, angel? And then they ALTER all future humans, who had NO choice, in the matter - not like ALL the angels, apparently, got, in direct sight, of this god, no less - and then are scattered into a world, amidst disguised adversaries?
Also, where does Hosea 9:12-16, ever, EVER, fit into, any model - of parenting?
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Err, WHY, exactly, @Jacob Lalmuanpuia ? How much of it, have you READ, and hope for WHICH or how many people, or trust, does it offer? What of Jude 1:4, 2 Timothy 1:9, Hosea 9, and the book of Zephaniah?
And what progress was Torquemada, Calvin or Gregory XIII, to be part of - or be left unsupervised, or not?
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@drexlerjohn3822 So - can you feed 5000 Africans, with 1000 fish, meantime?
Matthew 7:7, and John 14:12-13, and Matthew 17:20 - all kind, of imply, so.
And many starving Africans, and Indians could well benefit.
If this journey is to actually go many paces.
Without this - many can claim to be Christian, but we saw that, before.
During many past schisms, wars, atrocities, disputes, and backings - of slavery, inquisitions, blood libels, and wars.
Or of Pope Paul III, for one case - ordering people, flayed, alive.
Very, peaceful. As was, the Thirty Years, War?
In contrast rapid resolution, is obviously possible - as Joshua 7:24, Numbers 15, and 16, and more - seemingly, show.
None of them took three or four, centuries, to clear up (the issues each chapter, focused, on)
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@إنالمسيحالله And handing over a planet to a demented, poorly designed disloyal angel, because two people in Eden were not yet equipped mentally to 'choose' for their entire, yet to be born (mostly) species - that's entirely respectful, is it?
Or the 'weddings' in Numbers 31:18? Or the recommendations of Leviticus 25:46 and Deuteronomy 21:13? Are those, respectful.
Also, St Paul's odd flexibility on when it's okay to call people 'fools' or not may also be slightly disrespectful.
Fortunately, many things no longer need to be punishable, by death, under law - and we can actually discuss many of them. And learn about people, without having to destroy them.
Also, that profile picture of which you speak comes from a movie source with more humor than the Jehovah of Numbers to Samuel ever seemed to be capable of.
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@dickfalcon420 Can you tell me, then, what it is, you mean, by marriage?
Do examples, in Judges 21, Deuteronomy 21, and Exodus 21:3-7, also count?
And what of concubines, also? Or Solomon's, many wives.
And also, in view of above - what is meant, by 'bad act'.
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Which life? Which life did peasants across much of medieval Europe GET to have, in between poverty, feudal wars, national wars and sectarian wars, all against those who generally believed pretty much EXACTLY the same thing they did, @jackie Everitt ? And if you were a medieval Jew, say, in Spain, you were lucky enough to even have that many choices, or peace.
So please qualify further what you precisely mean about bringing life, and goodwill. And why so many senior church leaders could do what you seem to accuse many here of doing?
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@stephaniaduran9677 And did Eve REDUCE ALTER or impair free will, by her actions, and via an INHERITED curse, or not?
And sure, give angels free will, but there is STILL NO CLEAR reason why ANY WOULD CHOOSE to rebel against God, if they were in His direct Presence, or to EVER expect Satan to WIN a revolt. And exiling them whilst letting them KEEP any powers or access THIS world, where after the Fall, we could not see God, OR them, in their various disguises, would also potentially disrupt free will, would it not?
Also, what is a 'natural man' ala 1 Corinthians 2:14, exactly? And are such born more spiritually impaired, than others?
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@jacksongreythelatterdaysai916 The teaching has to be credible and self consistent, naturally? And crucially, perhaps NOT SPLIT up into maybe a dozen, maybe 400 differing interpretations or translations? See, for instance, how much difference can come from two varying translations of 1 Corinthians 2:14? One using the word 'natural man' and the other 'those men without the Spirit'? They thereby end up with VERY different interpretations, for some.
And for all those born into OTHER religions, that may or may not be demonic traps or not - well, so much of that is down solely to geography and upbringing, and parentage. And they are so familiar with it that they may see no reason to trust you or others that come to convert them? After all, things did not go so smoothly with Jews, did they? And even ended bloodily, in Spain, later.
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Why would I care? It was the realm sin BEGAN IN, and ERROR, in the first place. And ALL ANGELS KNEW which God was real or not, and what good and evil was, presumably. WE DID NOT. Adam and Eve knew part of it, but not what good or evil, or death, or the wider stakes, were. And read your Revelations again anyway, @Citizen of Heaven - it doesn't exactly say ANY of us go there. Where is the Kingdom to be based, again?
Also, what was good enough about killing scouts with a plague or curse, for just reporting bad news.
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