Comments by "chris sonofpear1" (@chrissonofpear1384) on "Atheists and Christians Debate Truth And Belief | Middle Ground" video.

  1. Yes, funny how theology can often try to have it both ways at once...
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  2.  @acemxe8472  well as many Christians to this day claim half or more of those typically labelling selves as Christians do not in fact count (either denominationally, by sect or by region) then I'm sure the numbers are a bit more ambiguous, over all. Islam has slightly the same problem, but I gather they do not have the same hard dividing lines between creeds, Christologies, Vatican I and II and other disputes, either...
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  3. He made an effort, at least. Dogmatic, but I've seen far nastier types than him...
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  4. How? Which specific truth? Why are there omissions in the backstory? And did Eve know of the stakes to more than her and Adam, when in Eden?
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  5. Slavery, rape and massacres seem kinda bad to me, yeah. And inherited curses.
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  6. And it has many OMISSIONS...
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  7.  @PrintOfLife  Also, why was Satan owed access to Eden? With powers of any kind, well, kept?
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  8. Some do. As an agnostic, I try to be patient. But some Christians can also get very agitated, or resort to strawmen. Not always, but some.
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  9. And given many churches are afraid to teach the spiritual or the esoteric...?
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  10. I don't mind them being happy. I mind when they are being smug and using fear on others, whilst dodging other questions.
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  11. Thank you. Talking of new ideas, how many have directly asked WHY God would let fallen angels set foot upon Earth at all...
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  12. I read a lot of it. Why are there gaps, Bradley H.?
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  13. I do STILL ask myself why the JEOPARDY exists, to require a saviour. Especially as two people are not the same as a species for 'choosing' things, whatever Garden they live in...
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  14. Stable, reciprocal love, or POSSESSIVE love?
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  15. I value SOME things in it. Others I now view with HEIGHTENED suspicion, including signs of spin and deflection.
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  16.  @fearandloathing9976  That's true, I grant that. In major parts of the Western world, it does seem to be only just clinging on, but a continually ability to reinvent will aid that. But then later, there's call for reactionary returns to older versions, and so on.
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  17. And maybe feudal wars, the inquisition, and a blood libel on Jews? Right now would settle for a detailed definition of Corinthians 2:14, if possible...
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  18. So -- prove it? and what did become of the captives in Numbers 31:17?
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  19. Also, I have yet to hear why Satan was owed anything? Including access to this world? And to keep various powers?
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  20. It taught how to buy slaves from other countries, and how much to beat them? And how it's okay if you can't convince some, because they are just 'natural men'?
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  21. I am also not that much in favour of subtle ones, at times. Still waiting to hear why Satan was owed anything...
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  22. You want to live it? Fill in some GAPS. Serve truth, vs propaganda, when possible. There is a difference, and I can tell when some verses lean one way more than the other, at times.
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  23. Also, as to who CAUSED the fire... or let an arsonist onto this world...? As I, ah, currently grasp it?
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  24. But which one, and how many? Also, why would any angels want to rebel? And why would they be allowed to reach Earth?
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  25. Also, what was the choice about, again? For angels alone?
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  26. And why did they not know God was invincible? Or that Satan could logically not win? Or offer them anything? And why could they reach Earth? Did God want them to?
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  27. What realms? how many planets do you think there are?
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  28. some kind of learning experience, I guess. Not sure I'd mind, apart from the implied DISGUISED rebel angels...
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  29. Or is another case of some theologians trying to have it both ways?
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  30.  @lilli2273  Maybe.
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  31. A bit clunky, at times, though?
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  32. Why should I? Why must humans do all the work? And how was Matthew 27:25 MEANT to be understood, @NoNya Bizzz ? Also, why did Satan KEEP any powers, post exile?
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  33. As an artifact, yes. I could tell you some artifacts about the names Jah and Weh, perhaps, too. And EL-ohim.
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  34. And I thought nature proved His invisible qualities, anyway? Except that being a natural man, one apparently sees such things as foolishness, per St. Paul? So a bit of a clash, potentially?
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  35. Whatever helps then bond as a community, if they wish. That tends to be what keeps them together, overall.
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  36. When will it? And why was Shaitan owed anything by Allah? Also, who was to run Islam after Mohammed?
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  37. And also, did he care about SATAN's free will and latitude, somehow more, also...?
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  38.  @salumtummundi9462  Want to tell us if Jewish lives in medieval Spain, outweighed punishing a guy for breaking Sabbath...? Or is that too 'accusatory' for you.
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  39. But if even the believers do not ALL agree on what the truth is or how to interpret it, what then? And what about the incomplete parts? Also, why could Satan reach Eden?
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  40.  IssyFishyy  And deluded, suicidal angels become so, despite not having flesh, and BEING supernatural, and being ostensibly CONNECTED to the source of all the supernatural - why exactly?
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  41.  @thankyouforbeingafriend9632  Religion? Can it be adjusted, streamlined, boiled down to most important parts, without sectarianism, obscurantism, cult like attitudes, or dogmatic dead ends?
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  42. Yes, and THEN clear up Numbers 31:17, and Leviticus 25:46, and others...
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  43. I also can't support a narrative that is incomplete but includes an ultimatum...
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  44. Some, yes.
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  45. Mine's Christopher. Still an agnostic, technically.
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  46. Is it a choice? And where does duress factor into it? Or having to rely on incomplete stories? Plus, why was Satan owed any access here?
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  47. And what did Elohim USED to mean...
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  48. As an agnostic, I certainly DO wonder about those things. But also why the Bible has so many gaps, in plot, alone, and in message...
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  49. Does seem a double standard, at times. With the whole 'brokenness' doctrine.
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  50. So, if I were to ask WHY demons can reach Earth, how much subtext would you pick up? Trying not to lead to a dicey reaction here...
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  51. It's all about Jeopardy itself, I guess. To souls. The, er, Bad News that must come along with the Good News? Since it can no longer be taken as preconceived, in this century? Since Darwin, and the spread of other views about afterlives, or about human nature in general?
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  52. Yes. Faith is presumably like trust, but trust often requires some grounding. Religions have 'communal and spiritual experiences' which may act as convincing grounding events, i.e. for establishing trust. But that does not mean they are always consistent, or comprehensible to other groups - or churches.
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  53. I'm in the same boat as Dexodon, but try to leave it open ended. I'd say just about no claimed god thus far, has convinced.
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  54.  @seernineveh1975  Would there BE ANY OF THAT if Satan had NOT BEEN OWED any access to Earth? or to keep any powers? or to disguise himself? And after all that, why permit him ever BACK into part of heaven, or back into the Presence of God - such as to discuss Job? And for his OPINION of Job, and others, even POST disloyalty, to still be of ANY consequence to God?
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  55. So how does one know which ones are useful, or not? Or errant, or not? Or unique to Christianity, or not?
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  56.  @TheYokaione  Yeah, but then, what's the point of religions? Do we just only follow the ones that accord with our conscience? Whilst literalists and the like will point to things like 'lean not on your own understanding' or 'the human hear is deceitful beyond measure', and so on? But yeah, much of that sounds more like a god problem, than a human one.
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  57. Ignorant, suicidal pride in angels? That seemingly came out of nothing, in heaven, @Anything Random .
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  58. I also do not know from this HOW MANY higher powers there are... much coyness seems involved...
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  59.  @Lara-vk3wc  Pineapple? I think I'm okay with it, myself. Might prefer peppers, capers or currants though...
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  60.  @criticclips1560  I thought I might be a nihilist, but then I realized I didn't care enough one way or the other... ( :
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  61. And why Satan was owed anything, yes, @MERVIN PADILLA...
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  62.  @PrintOfLife  Again, it's a question of WHY they'd want to, or ever think they could win. And why unreliable, delusional angels with potential malice aforethought would EVER be allowed any access into Eden, afterward, or to keep any angelic powers.
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  63. For some?
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  64.  @trivensheridanpillay3820  Yes, I'd tend to agree with that, overall. And they so often seem VERY insistent or worried that such a deity IS perfect, and deflect or aggressively respond to any such queries as to if that is so...
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  65. And even then, heaven might not be perfect, anyway...
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  66. And are some less, perfect, than others? 'Natural men', maybe, ala 1 Corinthians 2?
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  67. @Nikos Pap - in a similar way to how many medieval Jews were turned from alive to dead, in Spain - or many Africans turned from free, to chained up and shipped overseas? Curious priorities, at times, in that era, maybe?
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  68.  @niikospap7618  In history, dear boy, in history. No, they may not have meant to. But no, straightening them out did NOT seem as big a priority, as say - arguing over transubstantiation, and if critics of that should be persecuted or excommunicated...
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  69.  @niikospap7618  They were not STOPPED in time. Not weren't persecuted. INACTION has consequences just like action. Maybe for the sake of THEIR souls alone, not even their victims, SOME action could have been taken? And many DID, I am afraid, BELIEVE that they WERE Christians. Because biblical interpretation is also, I am afraid, very, very flexible.
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  70.  @niikospap7618  And why would God CREATE the possibility of disbelief and counterfeit gods, in the first place? To prove what point? And most will be born thinking each one is equally valid, early in life?
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  71.  @niikospap7618  And the people of other gods do not then COUNT - even if morally almost indistinguishable? And what if they cannot accept the idea of blood and TORTURE being used to enact forgiveness?
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  72.  @niikospap7618  And many BELIEVED those were Christian. As they often couldn't READ the Bible in their own tongue, how were they to know better? That's why the verses used on Africans could be so harmful - counterproductive, to the stated goal.
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  73. Also, why could Satan reach Earth?
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  74. ALWAYS. And so do explanations for Corinthians 2:14, or why Satan was owed anything...
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  75. Why was he owed it though? And as an agnostic, I have no opinion on your other question... Why give Satan ANYTHING of what he wanted? Even an small opportunity?
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  76. How am I to believe (or TRUST) without context? A lot is asked - including that YHWH makes no mistakes... (despite repenting of making humans once)
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  77. And how much of nature can Satan influence, or control, also? Does that make him a rival creator? And why did he have the slightest access to this world, or retention of various angelic powers?
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  78. WHY could he even reach Earth, and why would God want him to?
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  79. Fallen angels at least. Why could they reach Earth? Who was the snake? Satan? Why was he in Eden? Place he could do the most damage? What could be learned from it?
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  80. It's a pretty common interpretation, by priests. Or at least, that he gains SOME access, via the snake. Most say Eden was on Earth, but some say not...
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  81. So, I am, er, waiting to hear if Eve knew of the stakes to, er, MORE than her and Adam? When in Eden?
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  82. They... kind of are, at times? And many went into armed conflict with each other, in past? Doctrines can also significantly differ, on key points (inc Sola Fide, Sola Scripture, and how the Trinity works, at times) And predestination was also a long running, often quite varied viewpoint.
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  83. As for America, pick any state, and you will find a quite wide variety of differing, ah, Christianities...
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  84. Why could Satan reach Earth? Also, what overlap is there between totalist philosophy and some theocracies? If any?
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  85. Is also about how such beings are represented/framed, I guess.
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  86. From what? Why could Satan reach Earth, and why was heaven at all flawed...?
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  87.  @conor.3875  And if he cannot get his message across without appearing snidey and caustic, and simplifying a lot of things, that too, may be unfortunate.
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  88. Hmm, he can be a bit of a beak...
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  89. What's the crucial evidence, and for which version, of Christianity, @Daniel ? Including for the inactive eras?
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  90.  @alexanderchou3540  Well, that is the old dream of many scientists, but to do that, you'd have to very tightly control their environment, and conditions. And the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle makes it still less likely.
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  91. And why was that the price? And what knowledge DID THEY need to protect a whole world, then, if not of good and evil, @Alan Wayne ?
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  92. Shame. I try not to ridicule, myself, but I WILL question (sometimes aggressively) certain claims or assumptions, particularly if they look a bit sketchy.
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  93. odd, Jesus himself said much the same thing this guy did, though, @Cole Daley .
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  94. Thoguhts on Matthew 27:25, also, and aftermath...
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  95. And if Satan can influence or control bits of nature, then Romans 1:20 becomes a bit flawed, in premise...
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  96. I leave it open ended. But how DOES suicidal pride in angels appear from nowhere...?
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  97. So why did anything ever go WRONG in heaven? What did some angels think they LACKED for?
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  98.  @fearandloathing9976  Growing, but funny it spent so much of that time schisming, warring, or abetting feudal wars, renewed slavery abroad, and then even an Inquisition? It seems a little chaotic, at times. If the ones involved had instead gathered firewood on Sabbath, would YHWH then have come down like a proverbial set of bricks upon them, timely? Or at least spoken? Per precedent, that is what many must infer. And many other things are growing, as all population, is growing.
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  99.  @fearandloathing9976  Although the wider problem is that it often has real difficulty defining what it is, beyond a 'relationship'. For more, see also the video by Notcollectingstamps 'A personal relationship with Jesus', for one aspect.
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  100. Only partly. On some areas of terminology.
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  101.  @IssyFishyy  Wrong - we do not have free will equal to angels, let alone banished angels. And we 'chose' nothing, in Eden.
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  102. Yet it sort of does? It says many are 'filthy' in comparison... Yet sin and evil BEGAN in heaven? And Satan got to here, somehow?
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  103. Why? Did God want him to get here? And why would heaven have any flaws at all?
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  104. Well, I call Numbers 31:17 and Samuel 15:15 sort of EVIL, thus far...
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  105. I've seen a fair bit of the territory, by now, though. And it can often seem like, ah, sectarian squabbling or evasion happens a fair, ah, bit?
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  106. Also, how much did Eve know of the stakes to MORE than her and Adam?
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  107. What about agnostics, though? Also, those who don't have a strong view on Gods one way or the other?
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  108. See also empathy and mirror neurons.
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  109. Well it is at least, hard to conclude everything randomly appears. That said, we find it hard to define some of the qualifications for it.
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  110. In Numbers 31:17, did morals exist there? Or sexual consent?
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  111. Sounds decent, but do we need Jehovah as well? He seems unstable, and potentially prone to error...
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  112. Glad someone does. He can be a bit aggressive, though.
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  113. Same way Book of Job had a point, but didn't deliver it right? Or clarify why Satan was suddenly back in God's presence?
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  114. Then endless arguments about why Jesus and others spoke so much about hell (more than many characters in the Bible often did) but never mention Sheol, or what the definitions of eternity potentially were in older translations - repeat as required.
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  115. Why so? What of all this talk in Corinthians 2:14, as well?
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  116.  @acemxe8472  What world consciously sinned? Adam and Eve didn't even KNOW what good or evil, or death, or the stakes beyond to two lives, was, at the time - nor that Satan existed. And WE didn't chose. And Romans 1:20 is now strained to breaking point, too, and never accounts for the Glass Darkly thesis, either, that none of the hypothetical Pagans Paul was referring to in Romans 1, would even know about. And FELL to WHERE, and by what route, this hypothetically ignorant, delusional and suicidal angel? Who still got many to believe him, and even kept powers. We didn't - and even our knowledge was stolen from us, pre birth.
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  117. As an agnostic, I get by fine.
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  118.  Emiliano  Do you read 1 Corinthians 3:13 and Romans 10:9 to 10:17? Also, do jews go to hell? And why would they trust you, over their own priests? Also, why did angels ever not believe in God, whilst in His actual presence?
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  119. Yes, but then I have to ask if pre Flood people or medieval Jews were LESS important, by inference...
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  120. It seems that there are limitations on how free that will is, given we doubt, can't see him, but are demanded to trust...
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  121. And sometimes, there is even doubt about that? And to whether he really permitted Satan to do immense damage to Job, because Job MIGHT not voluntarily love Him? And this after Satan had proven disloyal? As well as his odd access to this world, to begin with?
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  122. But heaven itself WASN'T pure and whole, originally, so how will we know for sure? And what of OMISSIONS in the Word?
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  123.  @krisskross280  Well, from where do ANY angels become ignorant, disconnected, dissatisfied, or delusional, about God, then? Or ever think Satan could WIN a revolt, for one moment?
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  124.  @krisskross280  But it's not a hard question, in principle, is it? And WHICH God is the right one? Which one is Discerning the Word most accurately, too - or the will of the Spirit?
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  125. Well, I CAN'T love Him. I've read TOO much about 'him' and have much distrust, despising, and distaste, for what I read, @kira merritt - especially in the Old Testament. And the New is only a bit better, at times.
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  126. He was very, ah, bossy on many things. And simplified several points.
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  127. It's not uniform, yes. Seems like the sort of thing that should have been made certain of, by now. And Rabbis didn't used to view it that way, at all.
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  128. Why the hell not? Torquemada could, @George . That god never stopped him.
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  129. They do tend to shift at times, though. like impeccability. Or ignorance (originally conscious ignoring) Words are also power, in their way.
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  130. It has maybe gotten a little mixed up, over the years, yes, in public debates.
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  131. Good, but I suspect that comes largely from them just trying to be, and not thinking hard about what it means, or how literally to take the (omission filled) bible...
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  132. Eh, fair enough, ana. As an agnostic, I keep some 'options' open, as it were. But once one set of dogmatic seeming claims fell apart, it was hard for me to trust any others, on the face of it. Buddhism kind of slips by, as theoretically, it is not framed the same way. But usually I am very skeptical.
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  133.  @anaarkadievna  And yeah, it was not really on to call it a 'rape', but many may not always easily define it as consensual, too. And perhaps they were drawing some odd precedent, from Numbers 31:17...
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  134. And tear down any suspect or false creeds, dogmas and divisive rubbish, also...
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  135. And for those with varying views of hell, eternity, rapture or no rapture, universalism, charismaticism, and Papal writ? As well as some lately claiming odder things, like Eve having intercourse with the serpent? Or the re-emerging nephilim claims?
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  136. Yes. So where is law saying rebel angels must ONLY be exiled in reach of EARTH?
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  137. God does not, ,ah, have to LET them get, here, though?
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  138. I suppose. But maybe it should clean up some of it's creeds and ambiguities, also? And Corinthians 2:14?
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  139. Also, why was Satan owed anything, or to keep many powers, carrie h?
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  140.  @andyscott15  There's a lot that's not so accurate. And where would Adam and Eve have lived, also, if nobody died? Would you or I even exist to day, if they had not eaten the fruit? And why is death somehow not a natural part of the natural world? Also, why was Satan owed anything, and when has any not yet born angel, disloyal or not, ever received a curse or spiritual impairment, before birth? Let alone an hereditary, one? Also, your full opinion, perhaps, on Matthew 7:18, and Romans 13:24? Concerning yield... of the crops... sorry, survivors?
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  141.  @valhersa29  Hey, I don't usually ask if God is real or not - I ask WHICH God, and how effective or not they are, including if they'd ever consciously make themselves unhappy, say. And also I guess, why Satan would be owed anything, post exile...?
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  142. Too mysterious for me. Don't see why He'd CARE what Satan's opinion on Job was, post exile.
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  143. Pardon me, @Jari K L - but why is there ANY JEOPARDY to human souls to begin with, and to prove WHAT to Satan - a deranged, suicidal angel, who never really NEEDED to set foot in Eden or on Earth? And had apparently ALREADY known of good and evil, unlike Eve or Adam, who did not know of stakes past two lives?
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  144. So why put ANY souls in jeopardy of it, and why could Satan reach this world, at all...?
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  145. WHICH TRUTH is being suppressed? And how are the Jews to be treated?
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  146.  @brandonxs9r659  Err, surely there were people like that over 800 years ago, and right up to 1572, in the Massacre of St Bartholomew's Eve...? Also, many wore cassocks, seemingly. And who chose to become 'natural men' either, other than Adam and Eve, who forced this hereditarily on people (and 'spiritual death' too, it seems) and did not seem aware they could do that, to others? And were the men who married captive women in Numbers 31:52 walking after lust, as I find it a bit hard to believe the marriages were wholly consensual, there... And just how DOES doubt, ignorance, gullibility and dissatisfaction even arise in angels at all, assuming Romans 1:20 applies to them equally, too... And is Zephaniah a book about long suffering patience, or more a sullen rage - also, who is 'predestinated' ala Jude 1:4, or not?
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  147. So, which bits need to be filled? What about why Satan was owed anything?
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  148. Maybe not. Was Paul, in Corinthians? Or Martin Luther, later?
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  149. At times, yes. Numbers 11, and 31, and Samuel 15:15 can certainly be disturbing. Leviticus 25:46, meanwhile, has caused confusion - plus about how much laws differed for Hebrews vs other peoples affected.
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  150. Odd, seems very consistent with some of the 400 plus variations of some forms of Christianity, @Savagesbaseball 1234 ? And why was Satan owed anything?
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  151. And it wasn't about Jews at all then? Because some used it as a justification to say they were cursed. And was this learned by Discernment? Why does that appear to vary between churches sometimes?
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  152. Who created pride in heaven, though?
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  153. That's what I mean't. WHY would it exist? What about clear duties, and fulfilling roles? What would the other angels lack for?
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  154. James 3:15, Rainbow? How much of nature can we trust?
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  155. Why are there GAPS in it?
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  156. @Beardsman how do you know what one is, and is John 14:12 any help? Was Torquemada one, or Gregory XIII, Calvin, or Augustine? And did they leave enough mess as it was to clear up, about inquisitions, wars, etc. Or however non 'indentured' slavery got revived in Christendom...?
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  157. Faith in the bad AND the good bits? About test? About jealousy? About why we are in peril?
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  158. Were demons created by same...?
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  159. Also of letting fallen angels get within reach of Earth?
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  160.  @reekinladz33yrago59  For who was this way provided, again? What's an Elect, and what are impure and pure vessels? And what of Luke 13:24, and Matthew 7:18, in wider context. Also, why can not only Popes and bishops sin, but get away with enormous crimes, even warcrimes?
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  161. True. When cultures begin to get bigger, though, they can become VERY messy guides.
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  162. Dogmatic, maybe?
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  163. And God seems fine with it continuing to occur?
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  164. Hmm, and when there is so much variation in definition - (even leaving Rabbis out of it)
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  165. As an agnostic, I do tend to deny any inconsistent or untrustworthy looking higher powers...
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  166. Well, there is New Atheists, too, but they merely banded together in solidarity to make didactic arguments. Possibly fighting fire with fire there, and not always well.
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  167. And why do they vary so much, Alexander? And why do so many FAIL to answer key questions on background of the Fall?
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  168. What of higher dimensional manifolds?
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  169. @Bruh idk - and it may also be partly down to inconsistencies and omissions, and how Paul of Tarsus cannot stick to one definition of 'natural' just possibly?
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  170.  @bruhidk3069  1 Corinthians 2:14 and James 3:15 vs Romans 1:20, to pick the main example. Nature's rarely been clear cut in showing a SINGLE clear creator, per invisible qualities; and then to frame being natural as antipathic to the spiritual does not help the case. Also, consider the example of a parent who leaves their kids with only a vague idea of what fire is, and leaves a set of matches on a low table, in the house, and the backdoor open to a delusional babysitter who believed they owed the house despite living directly beside the owners and seeing it be built, and you may get an idea of why people are sceptical. As well as where CHOICE comes into the seemingly uninformed act of two people; who were also Stewards of this World, but not trusted with much knowledge to actually fulfil this role, or protect this world. Nor much idea any disloyal creature exist or could harm the garden?
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  171.  @bruhidk3069  Also, what part of the plan does the Curse of Ham (and his kids) the Blood libel on Jews, the Inquisition, or ANY vagueness and ambiguity on Leviticus 25:46 (and it's use of the word BEQUEATH) also ultimately serve, and how much time is needed to resolve them, in Christendom?
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  172.  @bruhidk3069  We deserve it? Because heaven FAILED TO BE STABLE and it's citizens informed, sane, responsible, be STRIPPED of their powers and access if proven disloyal? And for TWO people to decide for an ENTIRE species to become separated from God, with NO idea of what good or evil, even was, anyway? Nor are we sure they even meaningfully comprehended what death was, surely - if they'd never SEEN anything die, yet?
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  173.  @bruhidk3069  And various verses clash on what hell is or isn't, and some refer to sheol/hades/the grave, anyway, in original translations. Which is all prior to the Pit of revelations, into which many beings and mechanisms and even Hades, are tossed. But since the Fall RADICALLY altered all human awareness, consciousness, and more than likely, FREE WILL, and inherited curses messed with that further, can you PLEASE qualify better how the choosing even WORKS? Even without DISGUISED disloyal angels around who can pose as beings of light, and potentially set up rival, trap religions? When we lose all certain awareness of which or how many creators there are, upon entering into the test?
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  174.  @acemxe8472  Show me the proof, and show me it proves one, not many gods, and it proves any particular one. Now, manna from heaven - that would prove something. Can we see some?
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  175.  @acemxe8472  Show me, the science, then. Give me a link, to a reputed paper or article, or piece of evidence. And Andy Scott, there is NO PROOF whatsoever that Jesus CARED WHAT happened to Spanish and Italian medieval Jews, say, until YOU SUPPLY it, first or second hand, by preferable testimony of Him or the Spirit. Comprende?
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  176. I would also have to ask why humans were put in jeopardy at al, or their souls...
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  177. And how to get to there? Is the book ever preventing it? Or Paulline potential arrogance?
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  178. Sorry, confirm which parts? Also, what date, and scale, was the Exodus, and what was the same for the Flood?
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  179.  @losttime6949  Well, I did, and it's hard to find any firm dates, or scale, to either events, specifically? The Exodus seemed somewhere between 1200 BC and 1700 BC, but not all scholars are convinced it happened the literal way it was described, or if it was more than one event/wave of migration, potentially? And some feel the escaped happened at the Red Sea, whilst others say it was at the Reed Sea? For the Flood, anywhere between 2300 BC and 9600 BC have been suggested, with the idea of it being particularly GLOBAL in scale suiting the older date, far better, in the post glacial era.
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  180. Well, I like bits. But the moment it seems to be pleasant, we're soon back to curses, blood offerings, categorising ala Corinthians 2:14, and ambiguity about how much of nature Satan is allowed to control...
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  181. Christian abilities: clarity, brevity, non obscurantism, humility, not avoiding major topics of queries, and making clear WHY any souls were placed into any jeopardy at all - or why Satan got to keep any angelic powers? So for, quite variable, in fulfilment.
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  182.  @USRM1810  I am acting upon their assumptions and claims that one is, and querying their logic upon such.
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  183. And why were they denied to know this? And is it WORSE for people born as 'natural men' ala 1 Corinthians 2:14?
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  184. And do you mean the free will of disguised fallen angels? And two partly ignorant humans in a Garden?
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  185.  @Maksie0  Auras, basically; and the 'biophoton' claims, and quantum pseudo science. Etc. It's beguiling, at times, in the broad concepts; but I'm still rather skeptical about a good deal of it.
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  186. I am not sure how most are? They vary so much...
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  187. If it is not said in right way (or with gaps) may become incoherent, instead.
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  188. The book rather infamously full of several contextual OMISSIONS? WHY - would - angels - REBEL - if they didn't - LACK for - anything - in Heaven? And WHY - then - allow them - ANYWHERE - near - Earth?
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  189. Ah, but he'll sort it out later, won't he? AFTERWARD? And AFTER Satan was even able to GET to Earth, and start creating things of his own? Stable door swinging...
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  190. Why? Like there's only one world to exile Satan to?
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  191. And what of Corinthians 2:14? Also, isn't a LOT of message about how humans are broken and filthy, also? And there is curiously little on why Satan was owed anything?
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  192. By also saying that heaven was flawed itself, though? And what of Leviticus 25:46 and Numbers 31:17? Also, thoughts on Amos 3:6 and Isaiah 45:7?
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  193. I still have GAPS... And why was Satan owed anything...
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  194. As in - owed to keep any powers, reach this world, be in any contact with humans, or to tempt anyone? Whilst invisible? Or posing as a 'being of light'? As well as in the post Babel world?
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  195. How old? Which bits come from Sumerian culture? And why was Satan owed anything from YHWH?
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  196. Glad many have thought hard about it, and all - not like an INCOMPLETE book is often used for reference in this rather convoluted, confusing topic...
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  197.  @landonfrizzell291  But WHICH God, and which INTERPRETATION of God? And why, when European Christendom was at it's height, was PEACE so rare, or fleeting, or confused? And what WAS to occur to Jews, after Matthew 27:25, anyway? Also, why would Satan retain any powers, upon exile?
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  198. Ah, you begin to see a problem... Also, what of Sheol, and Hades?
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  199. Largely I suppose because lobbyists in America attempt to alter the constitution or create strawman portrayals of secularists. Although gay conversion camps and shunning by Jehovah's Witnesses haven't helped...
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  200. All totalist ideologies are potentially very dangerous, whether theocratic, utopianist or materialist. That includes both Communism and many forms of Sharia law or other creeds.
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  201. All try to sum up human nature in many simplified ways, and can see dissent to such as a threat, that may lead to violent suppression, for fear of undermining the totalist view - and thus, stability, as they see it. If not the natural order itself, as they frame it.
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  202. Honey time, not vinegar, billboard guys... (plus, who put table into peril in first place...)
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  203.  @IssyFishyy  Ever forced captive women to marry Hebrews after their whole tribe, was wiped out? No?
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  204. Well, if the idea can get so distorted over such a short time, and no intervention is taken, maybe Lorna Byrne had the right idea, where communication was concerned?
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  205. Good questions. Part of it comes from both whether God would exist or not, but also whether he would always appear benign and competent... And regarding bad things happening to good people, why can fallen angels reach Earth at all - is a question that ought to be properly discussed.
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  206. Everyone's got potential. But they often have to learn by doing, which may lead to mistakes. Perhaps reincarnation helps perspective...
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  207.  @OldGuy70s  But there are always gaps. And you cannot even unite all Christendom, yet? Also, would you apologize to Jews for any historical events?
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  208.  @OldGuy70s  But if you have understood it, surely you can answer? Or if not that, then at least directly ask God?
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  209. So, which particular god, and how many? Also, which plan? And why was Satan owed anything? Also, did Paul know how to use the word 'natural' in 1 Corinthians 2, or was it edited later?
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  210. Salvation must be defined, as must also the initial jeopardy... so why did the initial, global jeopardy, come to be at all? And why was Satan's opinion of any interest to YHWH?
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  211. Certainly seems to omit certain details...
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  212. Yes, well, a lot. of fairly crucial stuff.
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  213. And how does that god wish to be seen?
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  214. Strange, Numbers 31:17 and Leviticus 25:46 did not look ALL good to me... And how did a blood libel on Jews or an Inquisition ever come to be...
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  215. Is he competent? If he gets lonely, why jeopardise Earth by allow Satan near it? Or other demons? Who's free will was prioritised?
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  216. On the literal position of having knowledge of god, or that knowledge can be got, yes.
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  217. Yes, I keep trying to find out how various people... think... about why Satan was trusted... to keep any powers, post exile...
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  218.  @tyraaa4708  True, but how does that show which one, and that there's only a single... contender?
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  219.  @tyraaa4708  How does that show which God?
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  220. And talking of martial law, why exactly WAS Satan owed anything? Or allowed to keep any powers, given he was disloyal? So I assume?
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  221. In which one? And why can disloyal angels POSE as gods, at all? And how did kids ever come to doubt their parents on it? (their gods) Say, Jewish ones, Sikh ones, Hindu, Jain?
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  222. He, ah, got into EDEN, didn't he? He got ACCESS to humans at all. And keep many powers. And could visit God in heaven, in the book of Job? So... he seemed owed SOMETHING? And got sent to world he'd probably most want to go to?
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  223. Also, are Hindus the weakest? Jains? Sikhs? Buddhists? ... Jews?
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  224. And take wild permissive liberties, too?
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  225. They are often encouraged to be sure, or that they will be attacked by the 'Natural Man'. Yet who are they to say that when they often admit nature can't even be fully trusted itself, and yet still say it is the best proof of their specific God?
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  226. Odd just HOW many words there are in that book, how BROAD and unclear many are, and how it STILL manages to avoid discussing some things very much at all...
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  227. Only on some points.
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  228. Yes, that's why I said only some. And like many, his method was atrocious. If you would like to do better... why was Satan owed anything? In relation to this world?
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  229. But if not, I do not mind.
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  230. It's more about whether one could learn such a thing, than about belief and trust in the concept.
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  231.  @mouthwash3793  why not? And why can Manna NEVER rain from heaven again? Say, for recent African converts, even?
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  232.  @mouthwash3793  Well, when will it? Unlike many other miracles, it would also be nicely SPECIFIC to one particular God - and what makes newer members of the family, in actually HAZARDOUS climates, less worthy of sustenance than the Jews? And if it's on a different plane, why can a mad, suicidally rebellious angel flit back and forth so easily between it?
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  233. Which ONE? Which of the Elohim (PLURAL) And why would any rebel?
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  234. So, also, to say why Satan was owed anything? And if Adam and Eve knew of stakes to beyond two of them?
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  235. And will you fill som£ GAPS for us, ROACHEAD x? Why was Satan ow£d acc£ss to this world?
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  236. But what has this also to do with why Satan was owed anything? Including any access to humans?
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  237. Why was Satan given any chance? Or any access to humans? And what becomes of Jews? Or medieval Jews? Some tortured? And what has happened to some abused children lately? why? In altars?
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  238. Also, why was heaven ever first unstable,/divided, at all? What made any angels ignorant about God being omnipotent, or all good?
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  239. @Hong Kong for what? How many witches did you slay? What did you used to do with gay people, and did it ever say to... cure them? And does it say why Romans 1:20 failed so badly with angels? What potion do you brew in Numbers 5:11, for an adulterer, too. Or how to talk to the Spirit, and warn nutjobs like Torquemada (or to lesser degree, Kenneth Copeland) to stop doing what they were doing? Also, does Genesis 30:37 teach ANYTHING useful about breeding animals.
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  240. @Kuala Lampur Then answer my queries on it, then. Some of those instructions were vague, violent, counterproductive and had many dangerous loose ends. And have you ever tried breeding animals, with selective coloration, the Genesis 30:37 way? I rather doubt it would work.
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  241. Or we could both be wrong, depending.
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  242. Presumably, he's not so bad as some yahoos who don't apply thought over their responses.
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  243. How many kinds of interpretations are there now? Even in churches, Free2016?
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  244. From his POV, anyway. And not always diplomatically.
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  245. God/YHWH hates much things, but then mysteriously allows them? Numbers 31:17 (rape?) and Leviticus 25:46 (slavery?) among them?
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  246. Cranberries work quite nice on it, as I recall.
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  247. Especially with what looks like mind twisting dogmas involved, that can divide and rule.
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  248.  @melaniemars155  Err, how is any to know, that YOU are not lukewarm? Explain why Satan could ever revisit heaven, maybe? Or why Romans 1:18, failed so much, in the angel realm? But the simplest way of all, to prove non lukewarm-ness, perhaps - is to fulfil John 14:12-13, or Matthew 17:20, say.
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  249.  @melaniemars155  Partly my point is that Christians have constantly disagreed about many things, since like 800 AD, or even 400. And certainly by 1565 or so. Also, what is the credentials, to show one is not a lukewarm Christian, but a true (TM) Christian? And does it still, involve, any powers? Like in the early, days. And those too, may have been slightly useful, during times, or repeated, schisming, also.
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  250. How can you HATE the truth if you do not even RECEIVE ALL of the truth? Why was Satan owed any access to this world, at all? Why did he get to keep assorted powers? And how was Eve to do her job, with no awareness of those things, or of good and evil?
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  251. And did He KNOW who was with Balaam, or not, Xavier?
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  252. But which bits? And what became of the captives in Numbers 31:17? And what is the 'natural man' of Corinthians 2? Can we trust nature, or not? What of James 3:15? And why was Satan owed anything? Or allowed access to this world? All fairly factual, and in need of clarifying...
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  253. I have my doubts all is nothingness, too. That said, I do not automatically take people's word on dogma...
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  254.  @alijahtheguy  It's also largely because many critics of it used to BE Christians, or educated within that culture, and simply know more about it. Or were culturally Christian. But also, some offshoots of Christianity DO attempt to gain major media influence, in America, or depict seeming strawman portrayals of some secular thought and figures.
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  255. But things do not always divide that neatly, in fact, from my observations of various groups.
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  256.  @cristiandiaz6776  Yes, albeit passive, loving, and oft would a great deal of manipulation and evasion involved, though. Oh well - hardly the only ideology to do so.
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  257. Often they emerged from TENSION between religious and secular ideas though, and the idea of COMPROMISE...
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  258. Also, why allow Satan ANY access to Eden, OR to Earth, or to keep any angelic powers, post exile?
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  259. A bunch of nits arguing how the other isn't a 'true Christian'?
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  260. Which version then, @Andrew Cole , and surely you are not team Inquisition too? Or team massacre of St Bartholomew's Eve, or team prosperity gospel? Mind you, a guy in the street today said he was fine with Jews being subject to persecution post Matthew 27:25, in essence.
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  261. Yes, awkward litmus test, isn't it?
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  262. Ah, and in Numbers 31:17, and Leviticus 25:46?
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  263. I have concluded, anyway, that God if real, often does not seem to want to be openly understood.
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  264. In what, though, @Machi Griffin ? Also, are we to believe that gathering sticks on Sabbath, and being punished for it, garners more direct Divine intervention and involvement, than entire schisms, wars, pogroms and an Spanish Inquisition, ever merited? And why did Romans 1:20 fail so, badly, with many angels. Not all of them, believed. Funny most of them got to keep several powers upon exile, too. And do all who believe, believe the same thing? Or did they war over it - even in Christendom. Quite a lot, actually.
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  265.  @El_Pimpin_Shizz  Yawn, clarify the pure and impure vessels verses first, and Luke 13:24 - and why heaven was ever unstable.
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  266. One, at least.
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  267. Well, there are neglected bits of it that are slightly better.
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  268. And why were all souls first in jeopardy? Why could Satan set foot upon Earth at all? And did Eve know he existed?
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  269.  Emiliano  You attacked each other, from what I can tell, though? And ah, many jews, in the past? And it does not seem to be... the WHOLE... truth, often, either? And why would Satan bother asking permission of a being he actually thought himself superior to? Or ever be allowed back into God's presence? Also, did Paul judge the 'natural man' himself, in 1 Corinthians 2:14? As well as carnal minds?
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  270. No one said he was dead. Some might question if he was competent...
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  271. Swap out Christianity for Christendom (whatever THAT was meant to be) and we're nearer to the core issue. Including about them reviving slavery, and it not being sorted out (for whatever reason) by the One who claims to value opposing injustice and suffering. Well, some types, anyway. And as for anti-semitism, it did seem to run quite rampant, often times. As well as frankly garbage interpretations of the Curse of Ham - again, badly quality controlled, even by Jehovah, it seems. And the Soviets also practically WORSHIPPED Lenin and Stalin, so they were not so far off being a religion themselves. And their supposed utopianist creed was a protected dogma, plus they sought to control the press... And the core tenets are often worryingly vague, including Romans 13:1.
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  272. And TWO PEOPLE were given that will, to then ALTER all human experience, AND will, after that? And they did not even have knowledge of good and evil, at time?
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  273. But they didn't even know what evil was, yet? Or that a tempter existed? Who did they also think sent him?
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  274. How do you know they did? It was the tree of knowledge about those very things?
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  275. So without it, how did they see good, or evil?
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  276. Did Torquemada and Gregory XIII 'conform' then, to the thoughts of this world, @ServantOfYHWH ?
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  277.  @servantofyhwh6064  So, is it possible to be born again - incompletely? Wrongly? And hold high church office?
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  278.  Zack Tom  By being a sane human, mostly. Where they conflict, often the book will just have to lump it.
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  279.  @c_sante_4041  She was destined to fail, surely - and already had traits that brought about failure. Maybe be due to knowing NOTHING about good, evil, death, or the stakes beyond to her and Adam, in Eden? And why was she in that position to 'chose' for all of us, in ways no angel ever had impact them, or got impaired by, pre birth? And why was Satan owed any access to her, or to this world.
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  280.  @c_sante_4041  You call that fair, you sick hypocritical twerp? We were not BORN yet, so we did, not, chose. And we were IMPAIRED in ways no angel ever was, so we couldn't even SEE these beings, or the 'true' God, who like many times, just sodded off before the hard work began - like He did in the Inquisition. If that was not the case, then tell me how He FELT during that event, and why His hands, were tied.
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  281. But was he fully right?
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  282.  @andg_rodg_4_real710  My position, as an agnostic, is that 'gods', or other beings, and other realms - may perhaps, exist. But I do not trust most of what's been said about them, and I currently do not 'do' faith. Not unless it's properly backed up in the wild claims many make for it often, and they learn to drop ultimatums from their argument.
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  283. And for why heaven was ever unstable, or a why an Inquisition could occur? Is this observable?
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  284. Kind of abrasive, on some things...
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  285.  Emiliano  Also, why would angels be atheists, ever? And did Eve know she could transfer anything to Satan?
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  286. And what is mean't by knowable? Fully knowable, or partly?
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  287.  @carson9404  Ask Torquemada if they could have other beliefs, though?
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  288.  @javiervilla6923  Plenty of evidence Romans 1:18 failed miserably with one third of all angels in heaven, too. Can you look that up? I suppose, then, it is a 'mystery'. As if that ends Inquisitions or other disgraces.
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  289. Well, go and fulfil John 14:12-13... or maybe... You, were, never, a Christian (TM) either? I mean, how are we to know - you are? @PushingCz 
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  290. And yes, please explain why Satan kept any powers or was owed any access to this world, at all, @Soph J ? And what awareness of the wider stakes Eve had or not?
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  291.  @criticclips1560  A test where you cannot even see the examiner, are surrounded by invisible saboteurs, the test takes place in many nations and worldviews, and many marks seem based initially on where you are even born? Or if you are a 'natural man' ala 1 Corinthians?
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  292.  @criticclips1560  The test? I assume you were referring to figuring out good, evil, and who god was, right?
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  293. For many Jews, to be the WRONG faith in Spain or medieval Europe was ALSO death. Not a great outcome for followers of the Prince of Peace?
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  294. Are you saying God CANNOT steer his own plan, or team, Johnny? Mind you, if 1/3 of angels DID suicially rebel...
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  295. And whilst I DO TAKE ideas of the/a spirit seriously, I need more than just a nebulous 'feeling', but a few core RESULTS. Including CONSISTENT creed and churches.
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  296. Your best view, on what you currently know. And beyond bounds of a book.
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  297. @Hong Kong so did Augustine control himself before making special interpretations about 1 Corinthians 10, and the word 'typoi' as applies to Jews? And presumably Hebrews taking brides to marry didn't need the Spirit yet, also, in Numbers 31:52? And what part of Zephaniah, Jeremiah 2:30 and Hosea 9 implies long-suffering patience, on the part of the Elohim executive?
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  298. @Josh Abbott - is He hiding again? And how is 'choose me or go to hell' a choice, if He hides, and makes himself not always credible, or hell credible?
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  299.  IssyFishyy  So what are we doomed to, and what is the Pit? And do we CHOOSE to enter it, or are we CAST in? And are all as EQUALLY likely, from BIRTH, to accept it?
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  300.  @jonasjasikevicius8780  Hey, He knew it would enter the world. We never chose it - we weren't born. Why can all angels 'chose' a side in full consciousness, but we get the key choice made for us, by badly prepared Adam?
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  301.  @jonasjasikevicius8780  Thanks. So why do all angels get to 'chose' at once, unlike humans? And why would any chose to sin, if there's no bloody place for it to come from, in heaven? Pride? Pride is a useless attribute to give an angel.
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  302. At times.
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  303. Christianity was only ONE ingredient in Western civilization, friend ISJST - so was Greco and Roman ideas, even some Arabic ones...
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  304. That's what theologians trouble selves on., Can lead to blood debts/offerings, etc and other convuluted ideas
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  305. Whilst they lean on Corinthians 2:14 like it solves all issues, there IS no middle ground...
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  306.  @keylahjooste6543  How many medieval peasants (caught up, in many, many wars) should have trusted Him, then? Or Spanish Jews? or African slaves? Is there an excuse for sloth, even for Elohims? And why did Romans 1:18, fail with so many angels, in heaven?
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  307.  @davidmarshall9708  Excuse me, but are you Christian, either? Have you openly fulfilled John 14:13? I mean, neither Augustine, Luther, Paul III or Torquemada, to my knowledge, were required to. Given their spotty history, how are people to know, you, for your own credentials? And not all want, to do unquestioningly, say - the will evident in 2 Samuel 24. Or in Joshua 7:24 (to accomplices, of uncertain age, at least)
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  308.  @davidmarshall9708  That's because I cannot always be arsed, mate. I also expect people to THINK about what is posted, and how it relates to prior points. Both mine, and the reader's. The one responded to, such as you. So I will not spell out every tiresome point, along the way. I also got a degree, by the way. Just, saying.
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  309. So, if it's actually because much info on it is INCOMPLETE- and remains so to this day, is that more of a reason, Anna?
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  310. Yeah, tautologies, evasions, and all...?
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  311.  @ELagodren  So, why does it not? Who was the editing team? How does heaven's editing team work? Or does one third of the editing team become ignorant, rebel, and assume they can take over the editorialship wholesale...? Sorry... my little joke. My point is, WHY COULD that even occur?
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  312.  @saratoooo2627  Therefore - was any angel born, created, or designed.... With a sinful nature? Please define: before we further discuss freewill.
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  313. Sorry, why does the jeopardy to souls exist at all, though? And why could Satan reach Earth?
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  314. Of who's? And reciprocal or possessive love?
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  315. But many did drown ALREADY. And why was Esau hated? Or Jews tortured? And why was Satan owed anything?
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  316. Inlcuding any access to humans?
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  317. To humans, to Earth, and to two people with no knowledge of evil (and maybe, or stakes to their future descendants yet)
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  318. No - in the first place. On... YHWH's whim? And he got most of a world drowned?
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  319. In the first place. As if he had nowhere else to be exiled to...
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  320. Relevance? Why could Satan get to HERE? Or are we getting into allegory?
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  321. How many worlds could he have been exiled to?
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  322. And? Why did YHWH indulge him, at all? Why was he OWED any access to us?
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  323. And it is supposedly suicidal and futile to raise self over god. How would an angel not know that? Born delusional, somehow?
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  324. And? Why was Satan able to reach THIS ONE? And who is a CONSCIOUS follower of him or not?
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  325. And did Adam KNOW he had the power to transfer control of a whole world to him?
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  326. Jeremy? Hi?
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  327. Confusing, but yes, that seems to allow it.
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  328. And how does quality control work? And how does this apply to the blood libel on Jews?
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  329.  @andyscott15  Having created the problem, though, to some degree, to begin with? And having to somehow owe Satan anything, post exile? Also, what was done for medieval Spanish Jews, precisely?
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  330.  @andyscott15  So why didn't He guide errant priests, bishops, Popes and theologians (and kings) KNOWING they'd need supervision, post Ascension? And what right have He to be king of Israel, having spent not even one day literally reigning it - or perhaps, looking out for the safety of it's citizens, in Spain, Italy, etc, within Christendom? And what happens by default to gay people post Matthew 5:18, either, given precedent of fate for 'witches', for many centuries.
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  331. Which God do you mean, though?
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  332. Yes, and why must we be the ones to sort it out, so much? Often in cost of lives?
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  333.  @planetawnsersstudios6623  Ordinary lay people, in general, and civilians, those who made secular laws and division between church and state in Poland, and elsewhere, after the Thirty Years War, and the Inquisition, too, I guess.
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  334. More that God is somewhat negliable to everyday life, since proof seems unwieldy.
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  335. I do not know. Which particular god? Why would any angels not follow him? Why were disloyal ones owed any access to this world? How did Eve make choices for future humans whilst not knowing what good or evil were, or stakes to more than her and Adam?
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  336.  @acemxe8472  That could be any god, or several, that did that, though.
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  337. I hope so. Although some verses suggest otherwise?
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  338.  IssyFishyy  And in Numbers 31:17? Were those marriages... consensual?
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  339.  IssyFishyy  And for the captive women, implied to be made to marry?
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  340.  IssyFishyy  If it's the ideal way of life, why will people in heaven neither marry nor be given unto marriage?
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  341.  Emiliano  Why do angels become ignorant of God in a realm pervaded by Him? Even with free will? Also, what was meant to happen to Jews, post Matthew 27:25, if I may verge further, slightly?
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  342. Averting any such from occurring at all, unifying the church, and filling in omissions on the Fall and other things, might be even better, though? At least we got Inquisitions sorted out, eventually, though...
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  343. Some stuff we prefer to leave open ended. I don't make much comment about what or wasn't an 'accident'. Maybe about why demons can REACH Earth, and if that is an accident?
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  344. An agnostic is fine with simply saying we 'do not know'. And knowing much of it is a work in progress, including inflation, quantum geometry, Rindler and other coordinates, singularities, Brane cosmology, and so on. So may not be 'nothing'. But on the other hand, how does sin arise in angels, from NOTHING? Or must it be preceded by ignorance, disconnection or delusion, among them?
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  345. I fear you may be right, yes. Some are better than others. But if so much is now based on... faith... and often faith in BOOKS alone... plus how they are 'interpreted' - then we may be better off with scattershot spirituality or some placeholder like pantheism.
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  346.  @thankyouforbeingafriend9632  Perhaps to be streamlined, then?
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  347. Or you could just ask God, and fill in a few gaps, and also reunify the Church? Many also still want to know why Satan was owed anything at all...
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  348. Unclear, and unclear how intent, how many forms of intent, agency, and creation would work. Or if it would always be recognisable as such to our preconceptions of it.
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  349. Frankly, I think TRUST should be more foundational, than belief.
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  350. Ah, but which do?
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  351. And of Numbers 31:17? May I ask what became of prisoners?
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  352. Rebel? What on earth do you mean. I didn't rebel in ruddy heaven knowing precisely what god was. I never had that option.
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  353. Or at least, many of the stereotypical assumptions can be considered pretty suspect, by now.
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  354.  @yourgoingtohellyoutoo1282  I'd still like the source on that, I guess?
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  355. Because some verses can also give license for it, too, however... inadvertently?
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  356.  @andyscott15  So are crystals designed, or do they grow organically, according to simple geometric rules? Just a thought... One might say churches develop like amoeba too, as they often split and reform... (just my little joke)
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  357. So why did texts get out implying more mixed view?
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  358.  @legend-mj4gv  Oh, and also the four pillars, and the word 'khuug' (a little ambiguous in old Hebrew) also, which may mean 'round and flat'. Plus all the firmament claims, with water above in vast amounts... And king of what - including Israel? But He didn't spend any time there governing, or being king, and not all saw Jesus as being disfigured the same way the mossiach texts implied. Then, per times of later pogroms and an Inquisition, He didn't seem to do all that much, about it...? I know important things, like using the wrong incense in a ceremony (Numbers 16:46) or gathering wood (Numbers 15:32) and hiding loot (Joshua 7:24) may be deserving of His direct attention - but surely there was more?
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  359. Thanks... it's a start.
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  360.  @paulroy1903  Read carefully - we DID NOT GET A CHOICE. TWO people unaware of the wider stakes and concepts CANNOT choose for us, with an apple, in a garden, and alter our nature, volition and spiritual connection, and it STILL be compatible with free will. As a result, we are born UNAWARE of which or how many gods or creators there even are - and rival beings who can pose as gods and use certain powers have the 'free will' to roam at will?
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  361. And it tells me that Numbers 11:19 and 31:17 are EVIL. So what then? Also, that 1000 burnt animals in tale of Solomon seems a bit crazy.
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  362. Well, they do get labelled a lot, very perjoratively.
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  363. Is slavery, a, err, common theme for Allah?
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  364.  @animetalesseries  Hmm, why were the right people not called, then, or made aware God had need of them here? Also, why did Satan get to keep any angelic powers, or access this world?
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  365. Can I ask why 1/3 of the angels would even rebel? Then be allowed onto Earth? A little odd, maybe?
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  366. Might do. Might get funnelled into another system by spirits running reincarnational rota, though...
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  367. A rather rude, clunky, and evasive one, at times? And talking of darkness, why could Satan get back into heaven at all, to discuss Job's life?
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  368. Ever read, 2 Samuel 12:15? How, about 2 Samuel 24:1... @johntheboy6555 
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  369. Okay - but what was the deciding factor? And also, why would any angels, ever become, unhappy? @barnowl2655 
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  370. True. But they could STOP acting like they had an automatic leg up on people, just because they are failing to understand higher levels of phenomena than secular people are...
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  371.  @do-rehh-mi  But not so much on why he was owed access to this world, or to keep any powers?
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  372. We can maybe see it in other ways, though? And what is Glory? What was it like in Numbers 31:17, and 15:32?
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  373. Yes, why was that needed? And all because Satan was somehow owed access to Adam?
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  374.  @robgarry7858  We do NOT CHOOSE which religion or culture we are BORN into, Rob Garry, so how do we CHOOSE a side? Fully CONSCIOUSLY? And was not much of the CHOOSING supposedly done for us by Adam and Eve?
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  375. Excuse me, did Numbers 5:11 feature an abortion, or not?
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  376. How does that prove which God, though, or how many? And does Satan count as a rival creator, or not? How much of nature can or cannot he influence, or control?
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  377. By reading a book with some curious omissions in it?
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  378. And how would I know who was answering? If such a being really was who they said they were, and all powerful? Or how many might reply? Also, why did Jesus once say 'know ye not that YE are gods'...?
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  379.  @i.p.7687  Tell Issy too I wouldn't wipe my ass, with Leviticus 25.
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  380.  IssyFishyy  There could be one. I dispute there is, however, a straightforwardly self-EVIDENT one, though - or at least, singularly.
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  381. Which church? There are so many variations...
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  382. Jehovah seemed a bit impulsive to me... Plus, possessive love?
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  383. And why did He CARE WHAT Satan's opinion was on the loyalty of YET TO BE BORN people, @Theresa Williams - if Satan was both DELUSIONAL and disloyal? And how do TWO people make a proper choice, for the rest of, ah, us?
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  384.  @samuella5776  But Adam didn't know what good or evil was - so how would he know disobedience was bad?
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  385.  @samuella5776  So, how WAS Adam to know disobedience was bad?
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  386. @Tomski H - and valid interpretation. But historically, interpretation wasn't enough, as schisms arose anyway, or uncertain decisions. What was to become of Jews, for one, historically? And isn't the Spirit supposed to help Discern what the verses mean, and what the Spirit intends? Almost seems multiple spirits are at work, in various churches, sometimes...
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  387. So, did God mind that is was?
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  388. Did Adam and Eve have MORE choice than their DESCENDANTS? Including to WEAKEN their capacity for choice?
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  389.  IssyFishyy  Angels were born sinful - or ignorant, or delusionally prideful, first. And UNLIKE us, they ALWAYS knew which or how many gods existed, and never had that knowledge stolen from them by two ignorant stewards in a Garden, who altered their nature pre birth.
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  390.  @bruhservices5942  There is potential for good, in all, yes. I think the idea of human Brokenness can be insidious, though, and raise up people who THINK they have reformed, and fixed character flaws, whilst CONDEMNING those who express, say, their love, a certain way, or be born into the 'wrong' religion.
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  391. It depends which Christianity, too...
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  392. Catholic, Protestant, East Orthodox, Charismatic, Methodist, Lutheran and so on... Some might even include Mormonism....
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  393. So why did any of them fight each other? And why did Christian nations ever war with each other? Or ship anyone from Africa?
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  394. What is sin nature and does it weaken free will?
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  395.  @ASSFARTER69  Were kids, maltreated... by John Smyth... Given a guiding light? Also, was Smyth.
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  396.  @darianstanton174  How do you know you are a real Christian, though, and the 'world' is turning against you (or at times, mildly criticizing you?) BECAUSE of that, and not other things? And how many kinds of Christianity are there?
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  397.  @thebossetrino9352  Sorry, didn't sin BEGIN in heaven, first? And didn't God allow Hebrews to OWN and bequeath foreign people?
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  398. What of the OMISSIONS in the book?
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  399.  @esayefishatsyen3744  But we can't SEE the one we're 'calling names' to, and even many priests in ostensibly the SAME religion, do NOT always agree on what He wants? Or fails to get?
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  400. But was also on deist principles, as well?
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  401. As long as Leviticus 25:46 and Numbers 31:17 WASN'T the standard, then... And what is Paul's view of nature? Is Corinthians 2:14 or Romans 1:20 more accurate?
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  402. PROVE it, @Umbra Imperium ? Wasn't heaven where evil first BEGAN? In, ah, bizarrely ignorant angels? And flawed ones.
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  403. There are many theories, thus far. Often I find Brane world hypothesis more intriguing. and perhaps, more useful.
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  404.  @andygaspe6138  Do not my own personal values allow me then to REBUKE the inconsistent, jealous, violent, presumptive and somewhat hypocritical seeming god of Numbers 31, and 11, and 15, and Samuel 15:15, and Leviticus 25:46, then? Or some of St. Paul's somewhat PARADOXICAL descriptions of what the word 'natural' implies?
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  405.  @andygaspe6138  And how many are going to SURVIVE this test; and why would God CARE what Satan's opinions were on the loyalty of as yet UNBORN people, at the time?
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  406.  @andygaspe6138  Humility, but also a certain carelessness, perhaps? And if He was omniscient, why did He not know one THIRD of all the angels were sucidally prideful or dissatisfied, or unhappy? Or would cause more damage if they kept any powers, post exile? Or that Adam and Eve lacked sufficient knowledge of the wider stakes? With no idea of good or evil, would they also comprehend what disobedience meant? Also, what is the mystery of the 'natural man', and what has it got to do with them more self evidentiary aspects of nature regards God's unseen qualities within it? And is being BORN into other religions going to make it easier OR harder to reach salvation - with so many DISGUISED rebel angels potentially posing as gods? And in the Henotheism era of Judaism, too?
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  407.  @andygaspe6138  Take a break, will you? People aren't always going to know WHICH GOD to believe on or trust, as they are NOT BORN aware of WHICH or how many creators nature has by default; and DISLOYAL angels can also POSE as other gods, yes? And many will be BORN into other religions that may OR may not have been tricked? And from their upbringing, THEIR god will look at least as credible as many others will, yes? From a generalized, outsider perspective?
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  408.  @andygaspe6138  Also, once one has brought in the concept of a saving god - in these rather BROAD circumstances - the way is open to allow the equally valid definition, for some, of a JEOPARDISING god, as well? As being maybe one and the same?
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  409.  @andygaspe6138  Also, violation of human rights? Well, was setting the matter straight about SLAVERY and ANTI Semitism a LESSER or a GREATER priority than debates on TRANSUBSTANTIATION and other arcane issues? And all such dragged on for decades? Is that because the old Testament was far more precise on how God seemingly felt about FABRICS being mixed or not, than on EXACT definitions of who could be purchased, bequeathed, or cursed by blood being 'upon our children'? However luridly?
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  410.  @andygaspe6138  Thank you too - and if any of this can be passed to an evangelic perspective, and perhaps, IMPROVE the material that is used to that goal, maybe so much the better?
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  411.  @andygaspe6138  What did these angels have to be prideful about - if they lacked for nothing? And how do they compare with humans born unaware by default, of how many gods, creators, and spirits shape nature?
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  412.  @andygaspe6138  And why was Gregory XIII or Torquemada not humble enough? And never stripped of their power, before much, much harm was done? Also, gay people freely, or do not freely, choose their desires? And which HUMAN ever wanted to overthrow god (outside of their only interior control of their THOUGHTS - which one would assume is where free will IS MOST evident - if it counts for anything) or ever think they could become the mightiest thing in ALL the universe?
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  413.  @andygaspe6138  But we don't know WHICH God, often, and for SURE what they wanted? And why was Satan trusted with anything, post disloyalty? Such as to 'sift for ore' among us?
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  414.  @andygaspe6138  And just how much time was wasted in the medieval era, precisely, when Christendom WAS actually governing and ruling whole European nations - at the height of their temporal and political influence? Why the priorities at times so... bizarre? So much left to slide?
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  415.  @andygaspe6138  I never had, not since I delved further, and further and FURTHER into this blood book with so many omissions and shifting translations in it...
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  416.  @andygaspe6138  NOTHING, not ONE thing, has EVER looked as CHAOTIC as your shifting, feuding, clunky, inept, dillettante churches trying to make POLICY from a book they constantly argue about - and many, many, many, MANY people across the last 1000 years paid quite a HEAVY price, for this... teething set... of fault testing, foraging in the dark ineptitudes... And ALWAYS blamed on 'humans are imperfect' and 'God allows free will' (a much, much abused and shifting term in theological circles)
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  417.  @andygaspe6138  So is nature as God INTENDED it, or was it ALTERED by Adam or Satan? Please choose one or the other - as St. Paul seemingly would not?
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  418.  @tpawesomeness2526  Why is this God and his spokespeople ALWAYS afraid of women? And it was largely by HIS choice that He even HAS His own rivals on this world, that He CHOSE mainly, to soweth here, yes? And were any of the implied marriages of captives in Numbers 31:17, consensual? Or detailed, much, at all...
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  419. That's basically my main point. So far.
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  420. Quite generalised, that. And mother Teresa sometimes saw herself as a bit broken.
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  421.  @maybelsunset7812  Well said, but it's rather hard for me to see eye to eye with Paul, Timothy and Joshua on many things. Whether on 'natural men' (as they are ill defined) or otherwise...
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  422.  @maybelsunset7812  Eh, fair's fair - many of us could not, and do not really WANT to, get rid of ANYONE - although many do worry at just how wildly variable Christians are, in terms of churches, sects, denominations, and some more extremist or confused outlooks, of some. Many would at least hope there was clearer view of central command, in all this? And maybe less of the 'natural man' questionable labels - or how 'all humans are flawed, even believers' to excuse what looks like very variable and messy historical events, within churches?
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  423.  @maybelsunset7812  And yes, some Hindu leaders, and others, have become quite aggressive, lately. There may be some bad blood too, from prior centuries - or just that they overcompensate in terms of their 'leadership'.
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  424.  @secondammendment  Are we talking a clear, consistent, competent one? Also, did Adam, and Eve, and the Serpent, count as creators? Or recreators, or adjusters, of nature, etc?
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  425. Yes, well said, but regarding the true and COMPLETE doctrine, of well, the Fall, and Job, and why Satan kept any powers post exile, or had ANY access to Eden or to Earth, what is next to expand on? And how much did Eve know of the wider stakes?
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  426.  @destroyerofnoobs3045  A comprehensive list that, thanks. A fair few details I'd not seen before, also.
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  427. He didn't say why angels were made a certain way, either... rebels or otherwise.
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  428. It's so convoluted we likely NEVER COULD reassemble the context, and it would be for once culture anyway (see pesher code)
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  429. Could be. Also, how does that EVER form in an angel, if all angels were directly connected to God?
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  430.  @minnieJesusfreak  Ask some of Greg Locke and Paula White's crazier friends, maybe.
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  431. @Miss PinkAndPurple Fair enough, but his method was poor; and Paul was quite content to dismiss whole swathes of people in the past, including the 'natural man' of 1 Corinthians 2:14 (without saying much on how the nature of Romans 1:20 could suddenly become unreliable)
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  432. And can vary which kind of God, also...
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  433. Does this word also say WHY rebel angels were allowed any access to Earth, and if God wanted them to have it?
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  434. Also, is there a spectrum, between, say, gathering sticks on Sabbath, and abusing children? OR the confusing instructions of Leviticus 25:44 and Exodus 21:20...
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  435. I'm sure some will fill in gaps? Why could sin occur in heaven at all? The one, least likely place for it? And then why reach this world?
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  436. So how much of this is inherent to people, and how much is it even of 'free will'? And if we take Corinthians 2:14 literally, are some fated to NEVER understand ways of God, due to their very NATURE?
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  437.  @IssyFishyy  Why are you replying for Hyko Music, also? Why do the initial posters always clear off.
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  438. Hahahaha - read Joshua, read Numbers.
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  439. I do not get it though? If Satan CAN control or influence large bits of nature, would that not sort of make HIM a creator, too? And what of James 3:15?
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  440. Does Numbers book 11 and 31 tell us much useful about what is good? Or stable?
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  441.  @Laurlxnbunny  He has to be visible and self consistent, perhaps, for people to 'choose' in a properly informed way, also, surely? And why did He owe Satan anything?
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  442. An unusual definition, compared to how it's usually framed, as a concept - but technically correct.
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  443. Also, Jesus said LITERALLY the same darn thing - that there are none good.
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  444. Firm in Him, or in a BOOK - that was often edited, or varyingly translated, @GloryBeToGodForever ? And why should Jews ever trust you?
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  445. And, err, maybe YOU are not, either, @Christian I ? How are people to tell? Does John 14:12 enter into your life, much? And did it enter into Calvin's, Augustine's, or Torquemada's lives, either? How, are ordinary people, to know what a true Christian, is. Especially back when hardly any could read your scripture. So I trust the old guy will resemble Christ when he can do some of what He did, maybe. This would at least, be somewhat more straightforward.
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  446. @Matthew Strader - maybe WE do not need to do anything? Why were the true Christians not guided to be here? How is the brand to be defined? How is the public to be interacted with? Also, define Arsenokoit, and the 'natural man' ala 1 Corinthians 2:14, if you could? Also, how much of nature potentially can or cannot Satan corrupt or influence? Including sexuality?
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  447.  @redhotchilipepper3983  Speaking... open mindedly, the further I get from Hosea 9, Leviticus 25:46 and 2 Samuel 24, the happier I am. And not too happy about the special pleading of 1 Corinthians 2:14 or Matthew 10:38, either.
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  448.  @ariexiro573  And possibly define how he arrived at those facts, too?
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  449.  @ariexiro573  Which translation, then? And what of omissions within it? Many still say women cannot be pastors, meantime, despite their efficacy - but often do not fully say why. Many also continually misquote passages about slavery ordinances, too.
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  450. Assertions, are not facts. Also, he and others, should go unschism themselves, say. @Name92391 
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  451. Fair enough, but I would want to be sure of some parts, at least; and on why any loose threads and inconsistencies dangled.
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  452. No, you are like nothing much at all. So much variations, inconsistencies, omissions, avoidances, and confusion. I worry for many of you.
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  453. How can you guide with so many issues?
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  454. The day you (often squabbling) lot describe how ANGELS can be born into sin, or propensity to, and necessarily ignorance and gullibility about it, and capacity for dissatisfaction in heaven - is the day I'll be much more impressed, I feel. And poor David's son in 2 Samuel 15 barely got any CHANCE to sin, or even make choices. And surely Eve and Adam were innocent too, as there's little proof they knew right from wrong (at least, fully) either.
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  455. We DO NOT have to take ALL of it as truth. How many hands has it gone through? And how many NAMES has God had? When was the distinction between spirit and soul removed, also? Some 1600 years ago?
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  456. Does God ever make Himself unhappy? Also, was heaven ever imperfect?
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  457. Isn't that a common problem? Paul and others pretty much saying they should EXPECT to have whole world against them? Whether Roman world, or not?
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  458. Fairly selective facts? Also, diplomacy is key to communicating, often.
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  459. And did war in heaven just manifest out of thin air... or dissatisfaction, in it?
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  460. So, ah, fill in omissions? If possible?
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  461. Harsh, but I do find a lot of suspect dogma in it, and that's even before Corinthians 2:14, Thessalonians 2:11, and Luke 14:26.
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  462.  @superbok4517  And what does the Son of Man mean? Look up historical roots of that, in Hebrew. Also, how do we know heaven is no longer unstable, now?
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  463. On some points, yes.
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  464. Which type of Chrisitian?
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  465. Also, is heaven safe now...
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  466.  IssyFishyy  Via being totalistic in philosophy, I gather. And that all must fit into his schema and way of thought?
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  467.  @IssyFishyy  The Hellenists were certainly pretty free with their ideas and mixing of it in, anyway. And perhaps, of reframing Job, Amos 3:6 and Isaiah 45:7, and the origin of evil?
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  468. @Basleal S which evil, then? Are we talking Exodus 32:14 here, or Amos 3:6, or Isaiah 45:7? (do read them first) And 'fell' from where, travelled what route, and why did they ever keep any powers post exile. And why did Romans 1:20 fail so BADLY with so many angels, when they very well surely COULD see 'invisible qualities, clearly understood', and be beyond excuse? For real, that time...
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  469.  @salumtummundi9462  You mean singing about how they cannot tell apart babies on Passover without blood being sloshed onto doors? Or need to tell Jehovah who was travelling with Balaam? Also, I've never BEEN a devil, and I'd not suicidally rebel against a being who LITERALLY sustained all visible creation and heaven, and ever expect to win. Since I was born unable to see either, the same category cannot apply, however.
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  470. All it really requires is considering god to be currently negligible to daily life.
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  471. No, not ALL atheists or humanists are strict materialists, or dialectical materialists, no. Far from.
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  472. Depends how often people learn...
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  473. True, or having issues evaded...
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  474. Okay. And for view of the 'natural man'?
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  475.  IssyFishyy  Yes, but what of all the missing bits? And what IS a 'natural man' or 'spiritual death' and dead to HOW many spirits? Meanwhile, why was Satan owed anything...
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  476.  IssyFishyy  Why only a single one? And how were pagans to KNOW from just looking at nature there was one creator AND a lesser rogue subcreator who alters bits of nature? Or did it via Adam? (viz Romans 1:20)
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  477.  @musememe1349  From which particular God, too? And when is bequeathing people for life, to one's relatives, good or bad, according to YHWH? Or cursing a bloodline? Or slaying children? Or putting ANY souls at risk to begin with? Via a 'choice' made by two underinformed Stewards?
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  478. @Seer Nineveh - sure, certainly. Just give me the objective TRUTH of Numbers 31:17, 15:32, 5:11, Samuel 15:15, Joshua, and Leviticus 25:46, if you would? In your own GOOD time, Seer Nineveh? And inherited curses, too? Whether on Ham's kids or others?
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  479.  @seernineveh1975  Also, when is coerced marriage excusable or not? Or bequeathing 'servants', for life?
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  480.  @seernineveh1975  So what DID happen, then? And why can't priests agree on it? Judao- Christian ones, as a whole?
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  481.  @seernineveh1975  It doesn't STAY private if it can have REAL consequences to REAL people, though, can it? And determine how they are TREATED by law within Christendom? Or be more likely to be mobbed, hanged or otherwise maltreated, or executed?
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  482.  @njbatoto9338  I'd be more impressed if he actually said what YHWH or Jesus felt about Matthew 27:25, and it's dire consequences, that besmirched us all in Europe.
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  483.  @TheYokaione  Well, I UNDERSTAND that it would help, I guess, if it had less gaps, or ambiguities, in it? And less of these weird categories St. Paul seems to invent, for why not all immediately get onboard with his doctrines?
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  484. I had noticed, yes.
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  485. And what has this to do with YHWH owing Satan anything? Life on here is dangerous BECAUSE Satan could get here... So is that what YHWH wanted? And why was heaven unstable?
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  486. And explain Corinthians 2:14, and how it connects to James 3:15, and Romans 1:20... (no gaps)
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  487. But there was in heaven first? And who chooses a suicidal option? Were many angels created delusional? And why, for all the exile destinations they had, was it to Earth? (Corinthians 2, verse 14, 'natural man')
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  488. Also, Adam and Eve didn't even know what good or evil was yet. (And that was a strange gap, for Stewards of the Earth to have) And did they know more than their own TWO lives, were at stake...
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  489. No, wrone one. The 'NATURAL MAN' please, to who 'the things of God are as foolishness'. And the captives in Numbers 31:17...
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  490. And if Satan HAS compromised or affected nature in various ways, it is no longer as clear cut as Romans intends... for instance, what of Parasitic wasps? And why did the grass resist YHWH, in Genesis? (original Hebrew translation)
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  491. What do you mean 'fell'? From where? Where is heaven? Draw me a map? And his route? What of other worlds? Or other dimensions? And the 7 heavens Paul and Jacob saw?
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  492. Seems a bit shot term thinking to many, letting him get to world he most wanted to get to besides heaven...
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  493. Yes, and only if they 'get' the particular mechanic he uses to forgive people en-mass with, too... One even many Jews did not 'get'...
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  494. Why? Because YHWH wanted a saboteur on this world? And for Adam to make such large choices to alter free will and nature, with little knowledge of the stakes? To those yet to be born? Or that he could transfer control of a whole world with one act? And how much of nature can Satan control or influence as a result?
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  495. We all 'deserve' to die, because, in frank, or an experiment? And what of the Babel curse? Did that make it harder or easier for Satan to set up 'false religions'?
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  496. So, for captured women, who had no choice who they married or not..?
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  497. And how much of nature does Satan influence or control, anyway...
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  498. @Hector Cavazos Jr If it is true... it's rather INCOMPLETE also, though, isn't it? And left many, MANY loose ends for medieval Christendom? Which were not resolved for centuries? And had deleterious effects for Jews, gays, Africans, and even ordinary peasants?
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  499. @Hector Cavazos Jr Also, KJB, NIV or various other versions of the Bible? Which is it? How about East Orthodoxist interpretations? And which say WHY Satan was owed ANY access to this world, post exile - or if the Curse of Ham was unequivocally lifted ever? (and on his descendants...)
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  500. @Hector Cavazos Jr Tell that to Torquemada, Gregory XIII, Augustine, and others, then? Or to Jews, suffering under any of the former? Or peasants, sent off to war with each other? Or Africans, told rubbish about being born into a subservient role, due to an old inherited curse? Or gays, when priests CANNOT even agree on if nature is partially compromised by Satan or not? And how long DID it take to fully define, and ban, slavery? or Anti Semitism?
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  501. @Hector Cavazos Jr And boy, I KNOW when something LOOKS evil - Numbers 31:17, Exodus 21:20, and Leviticus 25:46, included...
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  502. @Hector Cavazos Jr By if it causes pain, suffering, torment, mentally or otherwise. And has LASTING, intentional or unintentional, impact, on others, in future centuries - whether by negligence of interpretation, or not.
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  503. @Hector Cavazos Jr And how is one to determine if disobeying god is good or bad, without knowing good or evil FIRST?
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  504. I'd say, if you can';t just ask, it's not quite the relationship it was said to be?
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  505. Also, "these things and more will you do..." But as for when, and how often...?
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  506. Right, but meanwhile, churches have schismed a LOT, and a lot of the time, many will be seen in association with controversies, like conversion therapy, or the Magdalene laundries?
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  507. Was he there when Nephilim existed?
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  508. Although to be fair, there is the issue of what cause the big bang/singularity, and if it began in a higher or lower spacetime.
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  509.  @beyondgoodandwicked  I have no idea. All I'm doing is saying where our knowledge runs out. So far, God is not an obvious aspect of it.
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  510.  IssyFishyy  We know something pretty similar happened, that involved much light, heat, and rapid expansion. After that, it's more a question of if the 'bang' part is literal, than the 'big' part.
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  511.  IssyFishyy  oh, and how exactly do any angels become ignorant of those facts about Him?
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  512.  IssyFishyy  To be fair, it is a pretty complex and much disputed topic. And includes variable definition of causation and 'existence' as well. Often rooted in definitions of spacetime.
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  513. But angels were AMONG the first atheists, @Filip Bonce ...?
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  514. Hi ya. How do you think it's going?
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  515. I don't compromise about rape myself. Where does Numbers 31:17 fall, on subject?
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  516. True, though I do like to point out holes when it comes to issues of free will and determination itself...
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  517.  @czarbuscus1475  Well, coherent doctrine, hopefully, yes. And didn't St. Paul say to SHUN some people?
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  518. See natural men, see answer not a fool to his folly, see avoiding contention, division, etc - and see 2 Corinthians 4:4. Also, see not being 'unevenly yoked' or vomiting out, those not entirely compatible... (I do somewhat generalize here, to be fair) But meantime, hey - schisms, gonna, schism. So may not be literal, shunning, but is giving very cold shoulder to, often. @czarbuscus1475 
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  519. They do vary a good deal, yes. Particularly the more arrogant ones.
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  520. And He did this by letting two people choose for all yet to be born people, or by inherited curses, like with Ham and his kids?
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  521. But WHICH God? The one in the Sermon on the Mount and the Beautitudes? Or the one in Exodus 21:20, Deuteronomy 25, Samuel 15:15 and Numbers 11:19?
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  522. Well, there might be more to it. But how do they know this being is wholly separate from them? Or that it's the highest one?
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  523. Hmm, an odd combination, there?
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  524. And how many were mean't to be Catholic?
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  525. So, any ideas on how to fix it? And GAPs in bible?
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  526. And to fix who's mistake, also...
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  527. And why were any souls put into jeopardy, at all?
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  528. Why were any souls put at risk? Why could Satan reach this world, at all? And what knowledge of the stakes to souls did Adam and Eve have, beyond their own two lives?
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  529. So why were they not? And why would Stewards NOT have knowledge of good and evil? Also, was there no OTHER places to exile Satan to?
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  530. Did YHWH WANT his design marred? Up to and including James 3:15, and some being natural men', ala Corinthians 2:14?
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  531. I don't think it is vague. Did He WANT to make self unhappy, or not? And where do inherited curses fit with free will?
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  532. Stewards, Garrett, Stewards of the EARTH. Adam and Eve;'s JOB.
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  533. Also, once disloyal angels can DISGUISE selves as 'beings of light'; then there IS NO CLEAR alternative in all circumstances. And so many are left to decide from a book if, say... implied rape is SOMETIMES okay for God...
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  534. I can CHOOSE to see Numbers 31;17 as hypocritical, though? And to love parents because I can SEE them, and not hate them? Also, what is or ISN'T natural, per Corinthians 32:14, and James 3:15?
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  535. Also, Satan got to KEEP many powers? And could still ENTER Heaven in Job?
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  536. In.... WHICH... one, though?
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  537. So it doesn't matter what happens to the ones He doesn't help, or has Paul brag about a narrow gate, to, then?
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  538. For me, if I DO feel anti-theist, it's more severe doubt is cast on issues of COMPETENCY... But I prefer to just say communication and interpretation was poor - make of that what you will.
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  539. I think some DO think a god cannot exist, because of the claim he allows evil, and knows the future, yet permits free will. Despite that knowing the future arguably NEGATES free will. As does whether people would 'repent'.
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  540. Confusingly enough, yes. What is there view of this Jehovah chap, also?
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  541. Myself as well. Although I never got a very clear cut answer, except that 'energy' might be discernible.
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  542. IF god was spirit, and an omnipotent one, why did many angels not apparently KNOW this? Especially as, unlike fleshy humans they never had reason to doubt he was real?
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  543.  @acemxe8472  If he is confident of his belief system, I'd really like to see him reconcile Numbers 21:6 with Matthew 7:9, preferably? And maybe Romans 1:18 with any version of it that one third of angels experienced, in the part of nature, known as heaven. Before a certain Revolt, that also is. And I target the system, not the individual. The often, uneven, chaotic, system, of this 'broad term' that included Torquemada.
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  544. And how were WE to choose, when so much was CHOSEN for us, by two humans, who hardly knew of wider stakes?
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  545. Well, he may have been - misrepresented... But then, He seemed okay with often BEING misrepresented, so it's unclear.
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  546. Sorry, but which specific God does nature speak of? And what is more crucial? James 3:15, or Romans 1:20? Also, I seem to recall many ancient Greeks being atheists or agnostics, too.
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  547. And what is earthy wisdom? Which bit of nature is it?
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  548. And Greeks were quite varied, in fact. See also the argument Epicurus made about evil...
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  549. And which says Numbers 31:17 was fully prudent, and Samuel 15:15? And why do we buy any slaves from neighbouring countries? Also, why has earthy wisdom, as you frame it here, had about as much success as medieval priests and bishops often did? Or of, say, Jain or Sikh wisdom?
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  550. And just because I do not fully rule out a spirit realm does not mean I automatically trust any old so an so who claims to speak from it - how many realms even are there, also...
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  551. No, I am honest, and open to evidence. Just don't try to bell me I will not 'get it' because I am a 'natural man'...
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  552. It's a very convenient way to shut down any arguments, and many Christians used it on each other, in only last century.. (for when arguing they were not 'true Christians'...)
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  553. I await more on it. As an agnostic, I do not need to lean on it too much. Look up M-theory or Heim theory if you like... But as I do not fully rule out a god/gods, issue remains... why yours, particularly?
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  554.  @restraintxl2293  Not when it's been edited or distorted, as so many of you try to claim. And who is my neighbour, again? Were black Africans, so loved, in the past of Christendom? Or Spanish Jews? Or gay people, offered no 'cure' for most of church history. And why, why the ever loving fookballs, did we EVER have wars between people who believed in the SAME essential God, just to decided which flipping KINGS could rule which nations.
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  555.  @restraintxl2293  why would they accept Him, and especially after He cleared off into the sky and left them at the mercy of errant priests, Popes, theologians and Inquisitors, centuries later? And many of them were wiped out in 70 AD, anyway, so a lot of them NEVER got to meet Him. And when did they ever get the idea a form of human sacrifice would ever be used by their God again, or that He was divisible?
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  556. What's the standard, and what's the glory? Was August 1572 part of it? Or Leviticus 25:46? And why was so much of heaven initially flawed, or angels bizarrely ignorant of God, @Jesus Only Truth ?
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  557. God is a concept that exists in minds of many, on how to explicate certain things and relate to the universe. I am an agnostic, and even I CAN formulate that.
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  558.  @andyscott15  Which version of Him lived on Earth? Why not the Essene one? The Gnostic one? Or that one that criticizes giving anyone rotten meat, in slight, but not inconsiderable, contrast, to Numbers 11:19?
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  559. Unless they are 'reprobates', gay people, witches, or at times, medieval Spanish Jews, maybe, Joshua Greene ?
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  560. I may - if YOU will also clarify why Satan was owed any access to this world, also, and why he got to keep any angelic powers, upon exile...?
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  561.  IssyFishyy  But was it? Really? Do we get all EQUAL choice, since the Fall? I quote 1 Corinthians 2:14, too - what is the innate condition?
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  562. Yes - shame he tripped over himself, in ideas or definitions, at times, though?
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  563. Well, that BEGAN in HEAVEN didn't it? An why? Why was there any flaw? And why allow Satan to 'prove' anything?
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  564. And of course, the origin of Jeopardy it self, in a consistent way...
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  565. Don't worry, I know there are MANY, MANY variations of Christians. Some are very open minded, or do not get too locked into the idea of spreading info to save people, when they are not experts yet in debating.
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  566. Well, I will say I am specifically a 'non-Jehovhist' then. Agnostic on many other things.
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  567. Incomplete context, very likely.
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  568. So, why did a blood libel on Jews, and Inquisition, and continued African slavery, come to be, then? And what of assorted medieval feudal wars? Still, in principle, and in line with earlier greats as Socrates, I do not disagree... just ask for clarification on how... hit and miss it may be?
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  569.  @thankyouforbeingafriend9632  Unclear - it certainly seems to vary a lot, many things seem curiously omitted, in details, and we still often do not know who we are saved from - and why Satan got to keep any powers, or was owed any Earthly access?
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  570.  @thankyouforbeingafriend9632  I mean that Christianity does not always seem very clear, or informative, about certain things...
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  571.  @_Yombo  There's crap happened in 1572 this God took no clear responsibility for, yet.
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  572. And odd that means not all churches being able to believe the same consistent things, too...
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  573. No - have YOU either, @Beaux Dup ? I'd say Genesis has a LOT that's NOT fully consistent with total free will, including inherited curses, spiritual impairment, from birth (that NO angel ever has apparently received, whether disloyal or not ) and no sign Adam KNEW he and Eve were, ah, 'choosing' for more than two lives? Or what good, or evil, or death was, or that God even had enemies, and that any threatening being could ever be in Eden? And why was Satan OWED ANY access to them, before they really knew anything, pertinent, to protecting a world? And he also, ah, LOST no powers, had none taken away, and unlike humans, he and all other rebel angels, did not have TAKEN away, ah, innate knowledge, of which and how many Gods, were real? How, exactly, hard is this, to understand, in overall framework? And what SHOULD or not, have happened, to medieval Jews, post Matthew 27:25? Please think hard, prior answering, or directly ask... the Spirit?
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  574. The problem is there are so many variations of Christianity, it's hard to say what's representative. Is it Corinthians? Timothy? The Beautitudes? East Orthodoxy? Charismatics?
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  575. True. On that note, can we discuss Jeopardy? I feel any discussion of the mere concept of salvation cannot do so without clearly defining Jeopardy itself...
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  576. To souls, I mean. The 'bad news' half of the message.
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  577. Perhaps he just needs more positive examples?
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  578. At times.
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  579. Of which? And which takes priority, Andy? Romans 1:20 or James 3:15? (about nature)
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  580. And the origin of the Bad News, as well...
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  581.  65 00  Also, why was Satan owed anything? Any powers to keep, any access here - and MORE knowledge than Eve even had? Including of the wider stakes?
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  582.  65 00  This is my methodology. I take them at their word, to see what logic they use (or fail to)
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  583. What, annunaki like, and all that, @richardo bello ?
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  584.  @jiku-1286  We can't find very consistent proof of dates, scale, impact, or why the fish didn't die in the altered temperatures and saline content. And why was Satan OWED ANY ACCESS to this world; or allowed to keep any angelic powers, to ah, begin with? And what knowledge WERE Adam and Eve SUPPOSED to have, then?
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  585.  @jiku-1286  Well, if they never expected ANY DANGEROUS or DISLOYAL being to be in Eden with them, would they BOTHER to ask? And all BEFORE they had any idea what good or evil were? Would they even know disobedience was BAD without that? And test this creation, how? Did Adam and Eve also KNOW they could TRANSFER influence of much of THIS world and creation to a being like Satan?
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  586.  @jiku-1286  Well, to begin with, what sort of knowledge were Adam and Eve to need to protect this world? Or was it doomed to be drowned? And why'd God care what Satan thought?
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  587.  @jiku-1286  Well, they did - as some eejit was going to chuck a mad angel at it, apparently. And did they EVER expect a disloyal threatening being to turn up there, at all? And OF COURSE I'm talking about Genesis - the LONGEST, most MEANDERING, book of the list, and yet STILL somehow managing to say very LITTLE on very crucial bits of backstory, and history?
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  588.  @jiku-1286  And if He KNEW it was going to become wicked, meaning Satan was going to WIN FOR a while, then why let it happen? Was this just a .... a.... trial run for the world he cobbled together with no long term plan, beyond that a FEW small shred of humans might love his neurotic self back?
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  589.  @jiku-1286  How many died in the Flood again? And what creation? it was TWO people. Who lacked even the basic knowledge needed to protect a world.
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  590.  @jiku-1286  He set it up to become contaminated, to prove some weird point about the loyalty of two ill prepared people to an angel who was already insane, and likely didn't DESERVE a reply - all for... what?
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  591. What is a new idea. exactly?
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  592. Making him a bit flimsy to argue his case.
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  593.  @IssyFishyy  Boy, are you presumptuous, there, about what counts as a divine message or not. And this one couldn't even stay unified for long, or tie up loose ends about the fate of the Jews, in general, etc.
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  594.  IssyFishyy  Well, I do get a bit cross on how your God 'has' to do things, or can only 'forgive' via a substitutionary act of torture, and still seemingly owes Satan anything? But this would not be the first time theology confused me a ton.
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  595. Did Eve know of the stakes to MORE than her and Adam, if I may ask, Mich?
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  596. Before she met the snake...
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  597.  @ayedatsnemo-0457  Ah, dude, SATAN WASN'T holy at all, but HE could revisit Heaven, and talk with God; about Job and several other things. Why is that...
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  598. Confusing, at least. And why could Satan get here, Jaser?
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  599. Dogmatic. He had SOME points, but he makes some VERY sweeping assumptions too.
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  600. And who wrecked him? Who let Satan keep any powers, have any access to humans, and leave the key choice in the hands of two people with no idea of the wider stakes, or good and evil, @whizkid ?
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  601. But of which God particularly? And how much of nature can Satan influence or control? What of James 3:15?
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  602. It also says that earthy wisdom is un- godly, so is nature reliable, or not? And you read it also, and tell me what became of captives in Numbers 31:17?
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  603. And who was Hiro to say none do good? Based on what sample?
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  604. What do you mean, 'get to live'? As WHAT? Servants? Wives? And wasn't it about possession at first? And by nature,me I mean, Earth based, fleshy, everyday nature. Not spiritual, hidden one?
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  605. Can Satan control any of it?
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  606. After all their relatives died? Put to death? And do we ever hear of them again? Also, if YHWH left them alone for thousands of years (Canaanites) how would they know what was false? Was it since Babel, too?
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  607. Why are some bits more dangerous and tribal than others, though? And dogmas?
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  608. And angels got prideful and rebelled for no clear reason? In a perfect heaven?
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  609. Including backstory to what Satan was owed or not?
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  610. Deist and pantheism vary a bit from that, and animism, but they tend to be connected to various, or weaker, forms of organisation, culture, and world views, yes. Though in some ways, admirably simpler.
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  611.  @jesusislord4119  All scripture? Useful? What of bits used to support anti semitism, TORTURE, wars, racism, and apologetics for slavery? Or none challenging of corrupt royal authorities or others?
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  612.  @jesusislord4119  Was this then, 'useful', in ways NOT initially intended? And is bequeathing anyone to one's relatives for life, fully righteous?
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  613.  IssyFishyy  Since sin and dissatisfaction could occur in it - possibly preceded by ignorance? Though maybe I have it wrong, and angels did NOT dwell in heaven? Or just in some suburb?
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  614. And what does being 'born again' mean, and was say, Gregory XIII, born again, wrongly, @Baraka Segoe ?
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  615. But TWO PEOPLE got to dictate a LOT of the way we live, with ONE act - and for SOME reason, did not even know of good or evil though, when they did it. That is - quite odd. Especially for Stewards of the Earth....
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  616. Or the ingredients tunnelled from a dimensionally higher, earlier universe? Who knows.
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  617. No. I will NOT defend Numbers or Deuteronomy. I'm not too sure about Corinthians, either.
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  618. Why should we go to heaven if it was NOT stable, safe, or perfect, Cletis? Or hate mother and father, or shun others, to do so? And why could Satan reach THIS world?
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  619. Or a very sceptical agnostic, in my case...
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  620. Maybe not. What does word fully mean? And does Numbers 31:17 count?
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  621. Isn't 'irreligious' sufficient?
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  622.  @itsJPhere  Fair enough, but for many people, god does not show up unequivocally, or even very relevantly, so starts to look inconsequential, to many.
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  623. So tell me? And with no omissions, why was Satan owed any access? With assorted powers?
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  624. Although the further back you go....?
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  625. Much early gods first turned up labelled as spirits, pretty much.
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  626. You can do better, yes.
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  627. If we only ever made decisions when we think we are rationally justified, we might not do much...
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  628.  @Tomb-Wraith  If there is a God, then tis a very well hidden one, who does not want a straightforward form of knowledge about themselves; or a straightforward relationship, it would seem.
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  629. Some would say Paul was not always, either. Or that he defined nature a bit flexibly, in Corinthians and elsewhere.
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  630. Or at least, yeah, that they critiques are somehow hypocritical or delusional.
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