Comments by "chris sonofpear1" (@chrissonofpear1384) on "Can LGBTQ+ and Christians See Eye To Eye? | Middle Ground" video.

  1. Well, I don't mind that they seen themselves as trying to 'save' people. But that does require some effort to see how it's INTERPRETED, including the backstory. And not just giving up and saying people have a 'carnal nature' if they do not, ah... get it.
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  2. So what of omissions, in the story? And did Eve know of the stakes to more than her and Adam?
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  3. Do humans inherit WEAKENED free will from Adam and Eve, Orinoco?
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  4. Like, maybe, in Romans 31:17...?
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  5. Hey, he took eye off the ball. Left Paul to make definitions, and muck up a simple word like 'natural'. Plus, further thoughts on Revelations 3:1, Matthew 16:28, and Isaiah 45:7?
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  6. Constantly. And getting into debate.
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  7.  Tan Tan  And when a larger forum is involved, in direct communication with God (and larger than the Fatima incident, perhaps?) this made lead to further clarification, then...?
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  8. Prob not 'true Christians' or something. I at times wonder how they can tell?
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  9. I know. I was kinda being glib about it...
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  10. So were pre Flood people, Ham's kids, Esau, and medieval Jews, ever loved less?
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  11. How so? And what of those born into other religions? And what becomes of Jews? I assume no one will torture them again?
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  12. I can't, sorry. I do not do well with gaps. What is the 'natural man', and why was Satan owed anything? Also, are we saved from God, Satan, or ourselves...
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  13. Was sex implied in Numbers 31 completely normal?
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  14. I still await to see how Old Testament defines sexual consent, per you, Alpha?
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  15. @RedTape Not relevant, until the above topics are cleared up - Exodus 21:20, Numbers 31:18, and all.
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  16. @King Love would also maybe be to explain why we are in danger of such wrath, to begin with, and what role two semi ignorant humans in Eden could POSSIBLY have played in it? Or whatever Satan was owed, post exile. Without that, there is no - truth. And see Romans 8:30, and Matthew 7:14, too. Define also 'gone out of their way'? Did Pope Paul III go 'out of his way' and what response, divinely, did that provoke? Or Torquemada? Or several kings and more, within ostensibly Christian nations? Meantime, we see that - wrath - on display in 2 Samuel 24. And there, David WAS REPENTANT, even if we do not know if the 70,000 Hebrews who then paid a penalty for his actions, were.
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  17.  @whateveryoulikeilike6475  Who jeopardized us? From birth? By thunder sir, one of you WILL explain. And if Eve had ANY idea who Satan was, or how dangerous he was - or stakes to more than just two naive humans in Eden. And how can 'natural men' 'come as they are' or 'repent' either, ala 1 Corinthians 2:14? With equal possibility, too?
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  18. rockafellowdw - so God takes NO responsibility for the feelings or desires people have ended up with then? Genetically, hereditarily, culturally? Yet He sets up nations to endure under Principalities/watchers, and subject to temptations?
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  19. And how was the process achieved? And how will it be streamlined to work in all churches? Not an attack - a probing question.
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  20. Maybe it's a particularly American and Italian aspect?
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  21. A promise of devastation, also? And why did Satan get to come back into heaven, at all? Anyway, I speak of Mark O'Shiro, and others, who begged Him to not be gay, and got no answer...
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  22. And there was also Romans 1:20, usually assumed to refer to homosexuals (although it could be predatory rapists, for all Paul fails to stick to narrower definitions...)
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  23. Just that it may need to be cured somehow? (don't worry, we're all confused)
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  24.  @andreasmunzer1143  Yes, even 'natural men'?
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  25. And have we fully DISCUSSED Numbers 31:17 yet, Omega?
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  26.  @donimikooyouknow9240  It does not say it completely clearly, and depends what an 'effeminate' or an arsenokoi is, I suppose.
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  27. Until James 3:15 and Romans 1:20 are RECONCILED, do we really have a complete biblical picture of what IS NATURAL? Also, regarding Corinthians 2:14...
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  28. @ArabīAlayhā I think you mean 2028 years ago, maybe, around spring, maybe in Galilee, or Nazareth - but likely not in Bethlehem, upon detailed analysis.
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  29. And was it also YHWH's CONSCIOUS purpose to make Himself unhappy, or not? Unhappy enough to end up drowning most humans, later, despite knowing that was inevitable result? Of using Satan in... that way, and with that latitude?
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  30.  @donut2123  Deuteronomy 20:13. Deuteronomy 21:11. Judges 21:14. Also - do, I, so far - care...? Contextualize above - first.
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  31. Does he make children knowing that many, or, some say, MOST - will perish, or suffer for ETERNITY in a chamber of some form of suffering? And leave out dangerous misunderstood material like a tree of Knowledge, that they may or may not have been allowed to eat from, later, but we are not told, because so much of the story is cryptic?
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  32. Yep, theoretically unconditional. But then, we are created without earning it - and then, for some reason, we must earn it, to stay created? So say a fair number of theologians/theists, etc. And when does choice come into it, if Adam and Eve could just separate us from God? Likely, unwittingly?
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  33. I get confused with possessive love. What is it? Does the image of a Potter REALLY convey all the nuances. To say nothing of whether you can be guilty for being BORN The old hard, dualist dilemma about flesh etc.
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  34.  10 LMS  So how much of nature can or cannot Satan corrupt, alter or partly control, then? Including aspects of sexuality? And does that mean that nature does not always speak clearly of God's attributes?
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  35. The one that does NOT say, let me get this right, WHY Fallen angels were permitted to set foot upon Earth - you mean?
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  36. Unless there's a neat way to TELL they aren't true Christians, like how they don't regularly employ gifts of the Spirit, then just about any extremist can pose to everyday people as one with impunity.
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  37. Don't know. First, why was Satan owed any access to this world? Or to keep any powers? A disloyal, delusional, suicidal angel?
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  38. Mistakes? Er, about that? Did He desire a rebellion, or not? Was there any REASON for more than one angel to rebel, or not? Were they unfulfilled? Suddenly desiring something unplanned? How is rebellion of those humans with honest doubts about god's existence or motives comparable to the revolt of those in his direct presence?
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  39. Well, that will quickly sort things out - or will it?
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  40. Ok, but how did it work out during, say, Numbers 31:17?
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  41.  @David-py1ly  Hmm, Romans chapter 1? One of the most sketchily written things Paul ever produced? Could be - can we see the angelic version of Romans 1:18, if so, then?
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  42. There's some, but no evidence they have to play fair, or tell their followers consistent things (Protestants vs the Fatima miracle claim, for one?)
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  43. Some say regret, some say repent, depending on translation.
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  44. Two people making a choice for other unborn humans does not unimpaired free will equal. Angels could always SEE God and were in His direct Presence (where not only would you'd think they know there'd be no NEED to rebel, but also some awareness that the deed was IMPOSSIBLE) But due to one tree, humans now CANNOT see God, or the disguised fallen angels? Who, by their free will, were allowed any access to Earth?
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  45. Possible. But if translations can't even be kept intact, without handing them over to powerful groups, what should we rely on?
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  46. It's a choice, and promise. And if it includes tenderness, it's not just lust, @Matt Plumley . Now, can you say the same, for Deuteronomy 21:11?
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  47.  @lukaspinoti107  And, ah, how do you feel, about Judges 21:14, Deuteronomy 21:11, and Numbers 31:18 - meantime? Including, on the topic, of consent? Regarding how immoral, or not, they were. Whilst yes - we do still, have the Leviticus 25:46 dilemma, to resolve... (as was not done, even by 1500 AD, seemingly) Kind of a belated flipping issue, that was, for theologians, clerics, and 'authorities'. Be it of the Romans 13:1 type, or higher.
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  48. And how does one know what a real one is? And how much of the Old Testament to incorporate, retain or reframe?
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  49. Indeed. Why does much exist? And which bits of nature are controlled... What is your view of Corinthians 2:14?
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  50. Why would they do whatever they want? IS it a choice? Has anyone since Adam and Eve EVER made a completely free choice? What does being sent 'strong delusion' mean?
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  51. @RedTape Slavery, dude. Beaten very NEAR to death, plus owned, for life, and bequeathed, to relatives - ala Leviticus 25. Maybe more background reading, will aid you? It certainly COULD perhaps have aided much medieval clergy, senior clerics, and law makers.
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  52. What is a REAL Christian? Which variation, of some 400 plus, is correct? And how do people tell?
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  53. I cannot accept RAPE either, Victoria, so please clarify Numbers 31:17 for me?
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  54. From who, though? Himself, ourselves, Satan, or God? And why was Satan owed access to this world?
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  55. And of gaps in it, also? And is rap£ som£tim£s ok in it, or not?
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  56. Were you Omega yesterday? If so, must remind you, Numbers 31 - sexual consent - hi?
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  57.  @ijustfarted9605  Good, although it seems to ME there's a constant identity crisis on what Christianity even IS (a religion, a creed, a relationship, sometimes a cult, levels of yet to be revealed knowledge/meat and milk, dark sayings etc etc) and that many Christians are often in major dispute as to who even, ah, 'counts' as true ones. But at least there is not currently sectarian violence, over it.
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  58. Define what Paul mean't be 'Natural man'.
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  59. Starting countdown...
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  60. Ah, so sex is between one man and one women - unless it is Solomon, and his wives, right. And it's consensual - unless it's with captured Canaanite women, the only ones spared from death, and preferably virginal? I... see.
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  61.  @icommentoncringeyvideos1233  How different, precisely? That YHWH has favourites, I guess. Also, heard of, hyperbole? And see also Numbers 31:17...
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  62. And how much did Satan have to do with it? CAN he alter nature to some degree, or not? Wish they'd make up their minds.
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  63. Well, we get, ah, MIXED messages on that. And Paul and Timothy seemed determined to tack stuff on?
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  64. And it says so MANY other things. But it often skimps on CONTEXT
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  65. @Beardsman Why were ANY in danger at all? And you don't KNOW ANYTHING about this realm (which Revelations says people will NOT live in, anyway - at least at first) other than it either WASN'T perfect, or angels were often ignorant and delusional, in that realm. And I'm NOT helping some bipolar, sketchy being wipe out half or more of humanity on vague claims, thanks. And if you don't have powers, how does ANYONE know if you're saved, or not, either.
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  66. @PartyCrasher The womb that was deliberately sabotaged by chucking crazy angels at it? Also, what happens to reproduction once everyone lives FOREVER and where will they live? Would Adam and Eve have lived forever, originally? And their kids? And their kid's kids, kid's of their kids, and more, all together - alongside each other?
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  67. Patriarchy worked quite well, for a long time. Now many want to share the power more. I believe much could be gained from that. There are risks involved, however. Or politicians can weaponize extreme views.
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  68. Corinthians 2:14 - about the ways of God being seen as 'foolishness to the "natural" man'... By which he presumably mean't to have a 'carnal' nature...
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  69. Unaffected, as yet, by assorted guilts. Although, true, we need SOME protective instincts...
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  70. Maybe... can you repeat, the question...?
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  71. 'questioning', apparently.
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  72. Unsavable? What, because they only experience lust, Bamber? Why should people who'll happily stone a man for collecting sticks, or stone a son for talking back to parents, be less 'savable' than people who just have this particular predilection, as you would no doubt term it?
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  73. @@olufsen8394 Which one? Which edition - which, translation? Which soteriology - and, Christology. To say nothing... of eschatology?
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  74. Sounds complicat£d...
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  75. Can a rapist go to H£av£n, though? Pls clarify Numb£rs 31:17, if you will? And 1 Corinthians 2:14?
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  76. This has gotten a bit too tense. Also, didn't Romans slaughter for only a century or so?
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  77. Vox is Orinoco, then?
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  78. I do wonder why He would go to such great lengths to render self INVISIBLE, and for Romans 1:20 to be so - double edged...
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  79. Which corrupt feelings? And how do corrupt feelings appear in heaven, at all? And does Numbers 31:17 show corrupt feelings? Or consent?
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  80.  @CatholicWisdom  Aha. And... where does Deuteronomy 20:10-14, 21:11, Judges 21:13, and Exodus 21:2-7 - fall, within this, currently? On, marriage...
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  81. And WHAT IS Christianity, at moment and for it, what is FAMILY? How are people to tell true one from a cult? Because some advocate at least tend to stress some... cultlike aspects at times? Including shaming, shunning and silencing?
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  82. Don't expect middle ground for Orinoco. As a fanatic, he's not even allowed to go beyond interaction with a book...
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  83. Hope so. Thoughts on Corinthians 2:14?
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  84. Numbers 11:19 works well as toilet paper...
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  85. But there are versions where this HAS occurred, in the past, no? And why has the book still got omissions?
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  86. Who can say. And with inherited curses factored in too...
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  87. A complex issue, yeah. I have this sneaking suspicion it boiled down to what people thought was 'natural' (something not all the writers even agreed on, or if what was natural was automatically trustworthy) and the assumed urgent need to keep reproducing and expanding the tribe, and thus, their Word...
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  88.  @lunatism9714  I know, but try telling that to those who say God and his word never changes (even when it was shifting in prior epochs, and often reinterpreted...)
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  89. I guess so, but maybe not the story of Balaam. Or all those gaps in backstory of the Fall...
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  90. And not the jealous, possessive kind either...
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  91. Hard to say, as statistics reveal only what people have disclosed. And given the past example of honour killings...
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  92. And if they cannot make full, rational argument...
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  93.  Leon Kennedy I was talking about the ones TAKEN CAPTIVE, actually...
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  94. The ah, women, in particular? Taken as wives, it was implied?
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  95.  Leon Kennedy  So what did become of the virginal women - and to what degree did they have a choice?
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  96. Elohim? The old council? Or did they fracture?
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  97. And were some loved less than others, Tan Tan? Including 'natural men' in 1 Corinthians?
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  98. Assuming there is a multiverse, yes. Otherwise, right on.
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  99. Good, if I were, I'd get in my own way, maybe?
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  100. Plus, some very odd gaps in it... (backstory etc)
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  101. So... what WAS intended to happen, in the Middle Ages, then? How many more wars between Christian cultures were to go on, long term, and peasants sent to die, over it? Or Jews be ostracised and persecuted, gays executed, and Africans forcefully shipped over seas, with verses sometimes used in defence of that? For how long, was it to persist?
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  102. Also, many do not always hold the same ideas of who or what god is, and there is a growing view of alternate ideas, such as Panentheism. Or variation with Christian ideas themselves, such as with Meister Eckhart and others.
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  103. Well, what is? What became of the ones spared? Were they FORCED to marry Hebrews, or not?
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  104. What were the standards, for that?
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  105. Also, why must any souls be put into jeopardy at all? Not just of corruption, but deception? Possession? And possible complete destruction?
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  106. And how could it OCCUR in heaven, at all? To the point of making one third of the angels apparently suicidally rebellious?
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  107. Various bits in Romans 1, and Corinthians 2, I think. Without much on WHY it exists. Or why angels would become suicidal and rebellious?
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  108. If the word 'detest' is thrown around so widely, though...?
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  109. Cerastes will always comment. He has the right to. But it would be nice to see more of a RANGE of opinions...
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  110. I mean, why would anything go wrong with them? or they feel they LACKED anything?
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  111. And how were the captives in Numbers 31:17, affected, if I may ask?
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  112. I know, but shame is, those that 'shout' loudest may define the brand, at times...
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  113. @Borat Kazak Is it possible to support potential rape, or inheriting of slaves, as a Christian, or a Hebrew, too? And why has the book any gaps on major related topics to this? Including full details on free will, inherited curses, and what is or isn't natural?
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  114. Another new logo?
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  115. Yes, @H Malik - and I hope he says how much of nature and human sexuality Satan can or cannot distort, influence or partly control, post Fall, too.
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  116. Odd also whether God would take particular care if some verses DID get distorted or lost? And I'm still not sure which ones say WHY Satan got to keep various powers or access this world...
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  117.  @mischa-roseelliman6040  Kind of the point, I guess - not all interpret it the same way, not even the LEADERS. Presumably SOME of those leaders can do miracles, John 14:12 style, say? And others were or were not MEANT to lead, convert or guide whole nations, or make policy? Yet the results often seemed very messy, varied, and even violent... indeed. Unfortunate. Not that Paul or Peter ever said Christians would BE ruling nations, before the Last Days too - also, curious.
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  118. Who knows? Many deny homosexuals can have feelings beyond lust, on very dismissive grounds. As many are too cowardly to explain Numbers 31:17 to me, I would say maybe ignore them, at times.
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  119. The perspective that JEHOVAH can have possessive love, however?
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  120.  @peace2033  You can't be a torturer of Jews or an apologist of slavery, as a Christian, either theoretically - yet BOTH did repeatedly occur...?
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  121. But TWO people made the choice for the entire human SPECIES to move away from God, apparently? So how does that work?
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  122. Which corruptness? Just by being offspring? Regarding why women cannot preach - tell me, can one gender be affected differently by the Fruit than another?
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  123. And I must again ask - did they KNOW they could affect more than their own two selves, by their actions?
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  124. Then who are you to lecture about the topic? Or about consent?
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  125. Ah, but which one? And what is full truth of why Satan got to here? And why he kept so many powers?
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  126. I'd like to see him consistently explain what nature actually is, and whether flesh is even part of it. Take credit for the good, discard the bad, etc?
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  127.  @andreasmunzer1143  And is this a CONSCIOUS living apart, or not? And why would any angel choose to, or wish to, live apart from God? Do not ALL angelic beings and everything in heaven depend on a CONSTANT connection to the light and Presence of God? So how could any of that have become broken? Also, many attribute authorship to Moses, Solomon, and some in the Babylon Captivity. See also the Yahwhist Source, and the Priestly Source, for Genesis, per several scholars.
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  128. Speak privately to Allah and ask for clarification about your feelings. Maybe invoke a guardian angel? I don't know how official those are for Islam...
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  129. WE CAN'T ALL MAKE THE CHOICE ADAM AND EVE MADE, Inferno DB. So why were they making such choices FOR US? And were they making it fully informed?
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  130.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  I suppose, also, some wonder about the INACTIONS potentially, or the needless confusion among prior churches and prior church made laws, when churches actually RAN many countries? Sometime Paul, Peter and James never seemed to consider would occur pre End times?
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  131. @Pitts DaThird would be nice to know how much of nature we can even trust then; as both St. Paul and James go back and forth on that very topic...
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  132. I wouldn't split hairs over that. Refusal to sell is nothing major to take issue at.
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  133. And it can't be POSSESSIVE love, either...
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  134. This is the God who permitted demons to reach Earth?
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  135.  @antagonist7924  read Deuteronomy 21:11, and Exodus 21:3-7, too, you indecent schmuck. Do we care? After reading those, do we, care, still? Tell me what is or is not 'detestable' in each?
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  136. Mostly it begins with fear. Does the bible do a lot to REDUCE fear?
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  137. People still died. Be born an Midianite, and you can die. Drop the Ark of the Covenant, and you can die. Try to travel on Sabbath to avoid a disaster - it's not clear you'll be allowed to. Be a Jew in the Holy Land during Crusade - it may not be INTENDED they die, but once blood libels are thrown around...
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  138.  @jaylayianieves315  Jayla, jayla, HE CHOSE to separate us. We had NO SAY in it, because most of us were not yet, BORN, in Eden. And there is NO proof Eve and Adam had ANY idea of the wider stakes or consequences beyond to two lives, at the time, or what good was, or evil, or death. Or that this God even had, an enemy, still less one who'd be admitted right into the supposedly safe Garden. So unless you can FIND out if they did understand any of those things, and that they were 'choosing' FOR us, in ways NO ANGEL has ever, been able to chose for another, or impair them spiritually, before birth - then I am going to have to consider your answer of a week ago dubious, perhaps invalid.
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  139. He made hell, didn't He? And why were any angels suicidal?
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  140. See also that time when the Bible implied a whole council of gods, in older translations, and Jehovah was just guardian of one nation. And often associated with war.
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  141. What does consent have to do with Numbers 31:17-18?
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  142. It has it;s own politics, at times, yes?
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  143. And he made Satan, so something may have gone wrong.
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  144. What counts as depravity, here? Slavery, taking women as captives and wives, and slaying their children, all of that? Just how times were in Joshua's day, was it?
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  145. So does he make himself unhappy? By arguably creating the conditions for sin to extend beyond rebel angels?
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  146. It's difficult to say it's a COMPLETE story, at times? And that the tone does not veer somewhat significantly? I think people might have appreciated more CLEAR discussion of how Eve affects free will and why demons can reach Earth at all, than all those deviations in Samuel 15 and Numbers 11? Or Paul's ambiguity about who controls nature?
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  147. Though it would be good to have some nicely publicized, major comments, from the man Himself (and preferably, NOT from an often variably translated and potentially omission including book) but today.
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  148. Oh, quite a bit, indeed And given we don't even know how reproduction would have worked in Eden if there was NO death...
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  149. So will YOU pay the medical bills for any psychological distress certain 'camps' instil in some?
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  150. And how is it going? Has God communicated? (genuinely interested)
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  151. And will they also say why, and if they had conscious CHOICE in it, fully?
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  152. Follow Him WHERE? How many of humanity will SURVIVE the journey?
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  153. But what is a neighbour? Now people see 'agendas' everywhere. It tires me out. I don't WANT to think ill of people who do not yet directly seem to affect me. That's why I'd rather skip all the backbiting and get down to asking HARD questions about what is or isn't a 'mistake' and whether divinity can make a mistake, or the price for it 'not really being one'.
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  154. But he permits Satan some influence over nature? So how do we tell which?
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  155. Now, technically, Horseman's upbringing has told him this is the RIGHT thing to do, even if he is not rhetorically prepared at times to answer WHY it is the best tactic to communicate about jeopardy, at this time. The Spanish Inquisition did have BROADLY the same attitude, once upon a time - and worryingly.
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  156. So what has your experience been? And how often have you communicated with, ah, God?
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  157.  Tan Tan  I look forward to seeing any ideas on a larger convocation, perhaps - not that it's assured. Some info on if it is practical, is to be appreciated, though.
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  158. And YOU Horseman, dodged MINE. Again.
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  159. @Jack Reacher I can't see eye to eye with bequeathing slaves, enforced marriages or inherited curses that can prop up slavery, either, though, Jack Reacher.
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  160. Did they know what death WAS - yet? Or that they were choosing for those not yet born?
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  161. So why did He regret/repent of making humans?
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  162. He bought some, but all a bit tunnel focused.
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  163. What was natural for them?
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  164.  @hollyharrison1377  It ties into if we can trust this book at all, that any no what they are talking about on the topic, and if we can even trust if nature is natural or not at all - and how many beings control it... Plus, Paul of Tarsus' opinion on all of the above.
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  165. @Mars Because it brings into question what the unchanging 'standards' are.
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  166. Now explain why the desire exists, I guess, and why conversion therapy hasn't cured it?
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  167. Hmm, St Paul did... a bit arrogantly.
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  168. And he didn't need no putrid Book of Numbers to do it...
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  169. @Stanley Sin is a term Christians used, often forgetting it simply means 'to miss the mark' in original context. They believe it means all humans fall short of the glory of God - despite being created somewhat flawed to begin with, perhaps; or with so much pre-determined by two people with no idea what good, evil, or the wider stakes even were. The idea is though that it doesn't make them BAD or evil innately, per se - just flawed. Odd though, that the terms were so vaguely defined, where merely being born gay meant you might get put to death in many later Christian nations...
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  170. Sounds decent. Any further thoughts on Corinthians 2 and Romans 1:20 though?
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  171. Hiya. Care to clear up any of this mess? And what is or isn't natural, or hijacked by an unruly angel?
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  172. Are we talking POSSESSIVE love, still?
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  173. @Vitaz Oh no, the TRUTH is many of you cannot even specify why souls would be put at risk in first place. Or who the salvation is from. And why Satan would receive any such privileges in relation to such, at all? Until that is resolved, please don't propose to be an expert on such...
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  174.  @Strugglebaddy616  Yes, he does seem to set Himself up to be continually blindsided, it would seem.
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  175. Also, we were created without earning it, but to STAY created, we must earn it? At least in other ethical systems, I know I depend a lot on my mutual relationships and trusts with others. But they are ones I can see...
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  176.  @voltsowo  His choice, surely? And why did Satan keep any powers, or access this world? Did Eve and Adam have ANY idea of wider stakes, also, since they did NOT yet know what good, or evil, even were? Which does seem odd, for the kind of info Stewards of the Earth, might be required, to have, for their role?
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  177.  @voltsowo  I've talked to street preachers, and people on other channels, many times. I've even tried to speak to BISHOP Barron, on his channel - though he usually ignores me. Maybe I come on too strong, no? But all that is really needed at this time is to answer, say, one or two. In detail?
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  178.  @voltsowo  Well, thanks anyway, and worth a try. Maybe you could also ask a priest? Or a mystic - if such are even tolerated any more...
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  179.  @voltsowo  Well, I've already asked, approximately - 176 people this year alone, most likely, mostly online. And several street preachers. And it rarely gets beyond some vague iteration of 'God had to give people a choice', as I recall...
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  180.  @phoenix1985  And does that include Paul's messages, and other aspects? And what of this Christian's claim to me yesterday or more recently? : ' Fourth Castillo 1 day ago @chris sonofpear1 other men was not not elected to be spiritual, only those who was chosen by God out of all the sinners... all men are sinful Romans 3:23, but God chose some to be saved only by His grace, Romans 9'
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  181. Prove you are an expert on all romance. Also, I don't think I ever DID get definitions from you of difference between possessive and reciprocal love...
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  182. Also, they do not directly seek to adjust laws? Yet, anyway.
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  183. Dunno. Was pre Flood people, Esau, medieval Jews, and 'natural men' ala 1 Corinthians, loved LESS?
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  184. Evil is how you treat others, not what you are born as.
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  185. And, also, if he says it consistently, and without omissions or ambiguities? With a clear enough view of human nature? And no ambiguities about Corinthians 2:14, as well?
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  186.  blitzkrieg࿕☦︎  Really? After Hosea 9, Leviticus 25, 2 Samuel 24, and Matthew 10:37, I really cannot imagine why...
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  187. Somewhat pessimistic?
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  188. I suppose it makes sense from the limited contextual information the bible offers (when people agree on what it says, without major schisms/reformed churches)
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  189. A fair critique, anyway. Though I must also ask about sexual CONSENT - in Numbers 31...
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  190. If they can't fully explain why it exists - and keep saying gay people only experience lust, when it appears they do more than that...
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  191. Also, PAUL thought it would happen in his OWN lifetime, for quite a long while. And the Preterists still make a fairly strong case for their view.
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  192. So what was God's view on Numbers 5:11, if I may ask?
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  193.  @odilenoboa7428  What makes it authoritative, though? And how does one know who has said what, or what He has said? Also, why has the bible got gaps in it?
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  194.  @odilenoboa7428  Who's sins? You mean Adam and Eve's? After which we are BORN with a more compromised consciousness, awareness and nature? And why was heaven ever divided, incomplete or flawed originally? Also, what becomes of Jews post Matthew 27:25? And did not the ORIGINAL Hebrew wording use the word 'Elohim' which CAN have plural grammatical roots?
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  195. He has been known to?
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  196. He has convictions, but the reasoning for them does sometimes need to be tested.
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  197. I get the impression they are never more than a small proportion of human population, overall, though...
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  198. Pardon? One third of the angels rebel and you say there was nothing wrong there? Also, what is to become of Jews? And why was there ever a blood libel upon medieval Jews at all?
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  199. And would God ever make Himself unhappy? I would like to know...
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  200. Yes, it is an interesting compartmentalised dance that is sometimes made.
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  201. Or for giving some of your children the ability to disguise themselvses and trick others who are widely scattered?
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  202. Read it yourself. Tell me what to do to Sabbath breakers?
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  203. Because they are seen as maintaining traditions and values, stability, etc? On the face of it, fairly noble. Prone to issues, maybe.
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  204. Also, Jews shouldn't be persecuted, tortured or put to death for not being able to convert, maybe, but it still used to happen ANYWAY...
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  205. Hope so, and not much of this strong delusion stuff.
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  206. There is no MOST. Because there is not uniformity of belief in the first place. It appears almost like pot luck which interpretation you end up among.
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  207. @Jack Reacher Sorry, and once again, that wording IS NOT the same in all Bibles, and many actually say the 'natural man' and NOT the 'person without the Spirit'. So are words being MISUSED or prostituted here? And what does spiritual death even mean? Dead to which or HOW many kinds of spirits?
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  208. @Jack Reacher - no mankind existed yet. It was TWO people, who had no idea what good or evil was. So how was a malicious act?
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  209. Unexpected. And how many spiritual experiences have you had?
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  210. The incomplete bible? And what is your view on rape and consent, Borat Kazakh? I am still confused.
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  211. Certainly not before watershed, likely. That said, some so called 'primitive tribes' do not all have same attitudes, or dilemmas, from this.
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  212. Many are, some are not.
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  213. Avatar, if you KNEW the answer to that question, then there would be fewer 'reformed' or redeemed or split churches altogether. People might also KNOW whether sin was inherited, why Satan's wish to tempt people mattered to God, which bits of nature were still natural, and whether we were clay, crops or children - depending on the metaphor used. Oh, and why conversion therapy sometimes causes trauma or suicide...
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  214. Right, and evidence about how thin the air is above mountains in a global flood is...?
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  215. Yes, and what SHOULD be done, anyway? For centuries, it was assumed that, as Jesus did not mention gay people, but Paul and OT did, that such sources be deferred to? And did that often mean DEATH was seen as a solution for... gays? No mention of a 'cure' back then?
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  216. And how did any angels become sinners? With no clear reason, and nowhere NEAR the kind of loyalty test Adam and Eve got, with limited info? Whilst being able to SEE God all the time?
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  217.    Do I care? You're ALL accountable for presenting incomplete stories of how humanity came into jeopardy, thus far...
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  218. And stoning to death, burnt flesh and cursing the unborn are all more palatable to his everyday experience?
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  219. Hit the road, Jack...
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  220. So what is? And what are they to to? Practice abstinence, or be cured? Also, on topic of sexual morality and consent, what DID become of captives in Numbers 31:17?
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  221. An was Esau forgiven?And what of those captives? Also, did the curse on Ham's bloodline formally end?
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  222. A book on it's own is evidence of the convictions of those that compiled it. Of course, it can have multiple authors, and multiple shifting cultural contexts as well. Nature is a sign arguably SOMETHING created the universe, but not precisely of what the end goal was.
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  223. @Oompa Loompa He's unprincipled? Hmm, pot and kettle springs to mind... And as for how ANY perversion or corruption could EVER FORM in heaven, to begin with...?
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  224. No, thinking they were still cursed over something Ham did millennia ago and bound into inherited servitude apparently DID for some, though. Or this Matthew 27:25 business.
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  225. So, remembering Paul said 'in heaven there will be none married or given in marriage...' Or sorry, was it Jesus? Also, what happens to reproduction.
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  226. Well, I'd hope it was not IMPERFECT enough to cost MANY many lives, anyway, in the last few hundred years. Usually in Europe - sometimes amidst Africans. Often for many Jews, too. Also, what of the OTHER themes of the book? Like how 'there is none who do good', and as some sometimes say 'God owes the creation nothing'?
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  227.  @keylahjooste6543  Indeed, yes, hopefully. But what is the next move? And how to convince so, so many churches, of such?
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  228. It has unbalanced some sporting events, I will agree that much.
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  229. How about a stance on angels having dissatisfied or rebellious inclinations in the first place?
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  230. No idea. Ask God. Don't ask priests - they don't always know. Don't check a book - maybe. It will not always be consistently translated or fully nonambiguous. And I'm STILL not sure why has some very odd omissions.
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  231.  @andreasmunzer1143  But are Hebrews to have anything to do with rape, say?
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  232.  Tan Tan  And who determines if people do become homosexual, or not, Tan Tan - and is it fully a conscious CHOICE, or not? Or is Satan involved, altering nature? And ergo, which bits of nature are dependable, or not?
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  233.  Tan Tan  Nah, but how do you tell if a desire is normal, or consciously chosen, or not, and if they become unhappy or not, in suppressing it? And why did God decide it was not worth talking to some of the ones, who asked Him, about it? And my feelings tell me to extend compassion, and imagine how it would be if I was suffering as another was, or confused, or afraid. Something some churches seem to make a default setting, for certain people?
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  234.  Tan Tan  Also, given Christians often VARY so much on how they interpret or define such things, I thought it prudent to figure out what your view even was, and how deep it went...
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  235.  Tan Tan  Yes, but again, what is the main reason to do so? Why sabotage one's own world, only to have others call for mercy to escape the sabotage?
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  236. And was this related to why fallen angels ever had any access to Earth?
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  237. I mean why they had ANY access at all, back to Eve and Adam's time? Given they clearly had more on their mind than simply planting roses?
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  238. But the very NEXT thing He does is make Himself INVISIBLE? And the fallen angels also get to disguise themselves? What occurs after tribes are scattered from Babel, with confused languages, by the way? Will they remember much about YHWH? And meanwhile, the disguised fallen angels can move around unnoticed, and maybe create counterfeit religions of their own? (as many preachers claim)
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  239. Recall also that TWO people - two, are the ones making many of the key choices here. And that angels are sentenced for rebelling, yet they had ALWAYS been able to see God, and had, in fact, been in his direct presence? Where either they would have all needs fulfilled, or would have some awareness that successful revolt or raising a throne even higher, was, not, - in fact - possible?
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  240. Okay. And as for why Satan was owed anything, Meme Meme?
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  241. If you like. Why was Satan owed anything?
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  242. Perhaps, in memory of those that DID KNOCK, and were NOT ANSWERED - we should do away with some of the nastier bits, for now, Fanny?
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  243. And also loving this Jehovah figure too? One of the Elohim? Why also, again, is Satan owed anything? And why did his opinion matter to YHWH at all? Why did he also ever get back into heaven?
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  244. BACK, back into it.... in book of JOB, my friend...
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  245. You can also nowadays speak of... curing them? An option DENIED many for centuries, who could also be put to death?
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  246. Okay. Is Corinthians 2 a problem, though?
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  247. What does Jesus say about feeding rotten meat to people? Or of not calling down a fiery spirit from above? Why does this remind me of Numbers 11:19? And what were some of the descriptions of Jehovah, and what came from his nostrils?
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  248. Also, was given Adam, Eve and rebel angels more rights, and rights to alter people yet to be born, greater than anyone's future rights?
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  249. I know, I was making some token sops to argument, as it is still inadequate for all that befell gays in that time.
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  250. Basically, if it DID contain whole history and interpretation, it would imply much incompetence in that era, yeah.
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  251. This HOME. Yes. TELL US about this home - and why it would EVER HAVE A civil war, or be FLAWED in any way. And were we SUPPOSED to be on THIS world, or not? The one so easily handed over to suicidally prideful delusional angels, as you claim?
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  252. And how much of human nature is covered? What do children do sometimes when told about boundaries...
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  253. @RedTape Try to be specific, not generic, in proof, if you could? Nature proves at most A generic creator - possibly several. And the imaginary Pagans of Romans 1:20 are not going to KNOW the backstory, in that example, of a Fallen world, with Satan possibly perverting or hijacking bits of nature. So if much is NOT under the control of a SINGLE hand or architect, then surely they will see signs of rival or shared gods, and not a single creator? Perhaps, this was maybe an inevitable result of letting rebel angels keep their powers and utilize them on this world, I suppose, post exile - as well as not informing Adam, much about them?
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  254. An your view on rape?
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  255. Better than temptation, though? And rape?
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  256. Also, do rapists inherit much?
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  257.  @dyingrat2439  So, how MANY KINDS of Christianity are there, why should there be so many, and it could it be there are GAPS in the whole story and plan that formented the CONCEPT of so many variations?
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  258. And how is sexual consent, I must again ask, handled with female captives in Numbers 31:17?
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  259. Sorry, if disloyal angels DID know He was who He said He was, why did ANY think they could win?
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  260. Also, some variations of Christianity do seem a little, close, to trying to indoctrinate?
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  261. And if we do wish to validate, are there any potential gaps that need attention?
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  262. So please check why there are GAPS about free will, too? And two people CANNOT logially choose for a species, and it be entirely 'free' for will of rest.
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  263. So why did any angels want to rebel? Or have any doubts about Him? And do you think gay people can experience tenderness?
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  264. But see John 6:27...
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  265. It hasn't been. Loose ends exist.
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  266. The narrative remains incomplete. It's a find the lady game - don't look under the wrong cup.
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  267. Please define it then. Including whether it is always CONSCIOUS disobedience...
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  268. So the curse of Ham's line was totally figurative then...
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  269. But they cannot see God? And Paul will not confirm whether nature is sabotaged or not?
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  270. How well does Corinthians 2:14 REALLY define nature? Especially compared to Romans 1:20? Do they burn in their own soul/spirit, then? Or a sidpa Bardo of their various experiences? Have you asked about THEIR feelings, and how it feels to them? Mark Oshiro seems MUCH more compassionate to me, via his blog.
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  271. And how well does strong 'delusion' fit with free will? When humans CANNOT SEE God?
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  272. @thecamil10 - please define the words Arsenokoit, 'reprobate' and 'carnal mind' first, if you would? As well as if St. Paul uses the term 'effeminate' in original translation? Or maybe 'submissive'?
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  273. Also, why were some who BEGGED to speak with God and NOT to be gay, and who had been essentially shunned by their church, NOT always answered?
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  274.  @thecamil10  Ah, you see, I actually LISTEN to real people, look for real examples -- not stereotypes and broad characterizations. Quite a few gay people are BORN into churches, see, and many have BEGGED to not be gay. But a good number report getting no answer. Maybe it's different for some churches than others? Though why God would wish to compete with Himself, I have no idea...
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  275.  @thecamil10  Also, how come they do not choose? Same as the 'natural man' of 1 Corinthians 2:14? have they not chosen? And how much of nature can OR cannot Satan corrupt, alter or partly control, post fall? Also, how much of nature is even reliable, today, to point toward YHWH?
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  276.  @demoninblack6011  They can't even all accept EACH OTHER these eras, so what do you expect? Have you see how many quote 1 Corinthians 2:14 to each other to argue why they are not 'true' Christians, in various debates?
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  277. Ah, they don't? There speaks the expert... Now, which spiritual experiences in Christianity hold more weight, from the laypeople? Assuming you have catalogued them?.
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  278. To determine who are genuine Christians?
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  279. Well, most parents are visible,. and do not compare children to drops, as such...
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  280. (crops)
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  281. Dating system also 7 years off, Omega...
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  282. Define it? Sorry, HOW MUCH of nature can or CANNOT Satan corrupt, alter or partly control, first, @Kgalema Molele? And by marriage, we do mean WHOLLY VOLITIONAL marriage, right? Wouldn't want any grey areas... So on that note also, about Numbers 31:17...?
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  283. Well, if the actual logic and consistency of James 3:15, Corinthians 2:14 and Romans 1:20 could also be discussed...
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  284. How do people tell? And who can pose as false angels? With the powers, they. were.... allowed... to... keep?
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  285. So, for Numbers 31:17, how can we tell? For the AFTERMATH? And during the Inquisition, the Fruit of the Spirit was....?
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  286. Additionally, your view/experience for what is Discernment, via Spirit, is defined by...?
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  287. A noble, but difficult goal, perhaps. And I can see how parents would feel uneasy about it. Still, considering other stuff the Old Testament attempted to 'normalise' as things God would be willing to permit...
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  288. Also, are there CONSISTENT forms of the praying and attempts at alteration/Metanoia, between different churches? With or without controversial therapy and behaviour alteration centres known to be funded in America?
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  289. And what of flaws in a book? Or ambiguities?
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  290. And I assume rape is, as well?
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  291. So was Jehovah, allegedly, but he changed his ways from the old Law, or it was a beta version?
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  292. And did he always intend to cover sin with blood, and Jesus' in particular? And he left ambiguity about what the suffering servant was for future Jews?
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  293. And what is this based on? And what became of captives in Numbers 31:17? Were they... 'married'?
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  294. Did seem to be many falling short in both the senior medieval church, and the nobility, though? And deciding who got to read the Bible in their own language?
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  295. For Numbers 31:17: "Critics say this is an example of the Bible’s condoning or even promoting rape. However, the passage says nothing about raping the captive women. It is wrong to assume that the captive women were to be raped. The soldiers were commanded to purify themselves and their captives (verse 19). Rape would have violated this command (see Leviticus 15:16–18). The women who were taken captive are never referred to as sexual objects. Did the captive women likely eventually marry amongst the Israelites? Yes. Is there any indication that rape or sex slavery was forced upon the women?" So, in technical terms still somewhat Unclear. I will need PROOF, if possible.
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  296. Of what?
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  297. Also, why do we not learn what knowledge Adam and Eve DID HAVE before being able to make a HUGE decision to separate an entire SPECIES from God, and with major power to do so, in one act? What knowledge did they have that they could DO this? Or of the stakes? And of if they even knew if Satan existed and who he was? And if he could reach Earth?
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  298. Also, why was Numbers 31:17 fine with some OTHER implied sexual, er, acts?
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  299. And for some angels?
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  300.  Tan Tan  Forum - just a possibility. Afterall, His ways are not your, or anyone's ways...?
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  301. Sorry, and why was anyone put into jeopardy to begin with, @H H ? What knowledge of the wider stakes did Eve have or not? And why was Satan owed any access?
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  302.  @Cobraman8447  We already DID descend into chaos. Or did you skip over medieval European history, at times?
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  303. And have you spoken with him?
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  304. Though does that mean being abstinent? And would any heteros in the congregation join you in solidarity, for a time?
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  305. And I ASK Johann, that you all fill in gaps? As Paul ALREADY DID judge many, including distantly?
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  306. And as it was some how possible for ANGELS to have logs in eyes or become suicidal, long before Adam, that will also need expanding upon...
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  307. A guid£ with NO GAPS IN IT's Backstory, also? Now? And or what Satan was ow£d? £x£g£sis is all vry w£ll, but it also VARI£S btw££n church£s.
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  308. And this 1 Corinthians 2:14 thing WILL B£ SORT£D OUT...
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  309. So how does James 3:15 fit in with that 'visible everywhere' claim?
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  310. In depth - WHY is it wrong? When is free will or desire really freely desiring? And why have those desires in the first place, and then find they cannot be easily changed, metanoia, therapy or otherwise? I don't think the 'they only experience lust' argument quite cuts it anymore.
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  311. There do seem to be an awful lot of lessons, many of them obsessed with the body and thought crimes...
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  312. LGBT may 'be a religion' to some. But on these points I find myself largely agreeing with Banana Split Lady.
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  313. If he never changed, does that mean the Old covenant was NOT just a dry run, practice, and he still needs to cover sin with blood? Would be nice to EXPLAIN why. Plus, why heaven even had a civil war... People tend to REMEMBER certain passages, inc stonings and other events...
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  314. Can we have the greatest hits version?
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  315. Does that mean we can't ask for deeper answers, or for old, potentially redundant ones to be thinned out? A few are claiming to 'communicate new stuff' (Paul Young, Lorna Byrne, Neale Walsh to name a few)
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  316. Could he be clearer? And on why the slave trade lasting so long? Or the blood libel on Jews? What of views like that of Paul M. Young, also? Viewed by many as a noted Christian author?
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  317. And once again, how much of nature was Satan permitted any influence over? Or was this all more stuff Adam and Eve altered, despite hardly knowing they had the ability to?
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  318. How widespread are Christians? Has the message spreading worked, as wide as it should have? And as neatly, consistently?
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  319. And what has God said, recently? Shall we be sure? Also, abstinent, or otherwise?
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  320.  @jacksongreythelatterdaysai916  Tribal assumptions and perceived need to 'protect' traditional reproduction, I think, as a habit. Religions tend to wrap it all up in one bigger package of alarmism though.
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  321. And reality is that Paul's 'without excuse' speech no longer covers the whole of human experience...
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  322. NO - it does not. It presupposes other people's theistic model cannot hold up equally so, or for shifting context about evolution and other ideas to enter in. To say nothing of pantheistic or pandeistic ideas. Various ideologies may not define 'sin' in much the same way either. The Jews didn't for much of their history.
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  323. (panentheistic, not pandeistic)
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  324. So define it?
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  325. I cannot OBEY Numbers 31:17, or possibility of doing it AGAIN, though, without knowing what became of female captives... So that is one problem area, at least. Nor am I fully comfortable with parents shunning their kids, over some things. Especially if a 'cure' is not guaranteed.
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  326. Of which type of Christian? And will you answer my question of forced marriage, or not? You have had weeks....?
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  327. So, saviour from what? And who saves Jews?
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  328. I repeat, for LAST time - Numbers 31:17 had female CAPTIVES, who were implied to be forced to marry Hebrews... please clarify if so?
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  329. And why could that occur at all? Why was Satan owed anything? And I still have now answer from you on the captive women issue.
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  330. So why was he owed a shot at humanity? Or to corrupt anything? Or to affect the one most vulnerable world?
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  331. We can discuss it more tomorrow, if you prefer. it is late where I am.
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  332. And is this because Satan can influence or control parts of nature, or not not? And no, only some think eunuchs were anything but what word usually mean't, for that context.
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  333. And who would protect medieval Jews, or Africans, also, in certain periods of... instability? Within Christendom then, I mean?
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  334. Did Paul do this in 1 Corinthians 2:14, 2 Chronicles 2:19, and Romans 1:20, also? And what is a 'natural man' anyway?
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  335. Rape? Also, what does Deuteronomy 20:10 have to say, on, er, consent?
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  336. @RedTape Which God do we mean? The God of the Beautitudes and of the Sermon on the Mount, or the ranting bipolar looking figure of Numbers 14:37, who loses control, and apparently needs Moses, a human, to persuade him to calm down? And who cannot seemingly focus on mass scale salvation and messaging for longer than 40 years, without distractions, schisms, or handing Satan still more power on this world, that he had not especially earned, either pre or post revolt? And put very little effort of that displayed one, to winning back Jews, without abandoning them to errant, deranged theologians, and others, later... And gave no longer term instruction whether to cure, or slay, or not, gay people, either...
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  337. Did relatives show non-acceptance too?
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  338. It worked in past, a lot.
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  339. Sorry, how does the curse of Ham and his kids fit with this? And who chooses to b born a 'natural man', ala 1 Corinthians 2:14?
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  340. @@olufsen8394 Mmm... try fulfilling John 14:13? Then we can begin, maybe, to start telling, your claims, apart... Also, was Augustine, Calvin, Pope Paul III - and Torquemada - ever asked, to do such? To fulfil, such? Before, ever making, any policy - or law? Or governing, leading - etc.
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  341. @@olufsen8394 Specific theological claims, and exegetics, etc. Or of divine communication, etc? Also, for more clarity - it is John 14:14, particularly, I believe I focus, on.
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  342.  @highly_rewarded  Whereas it's possible for Copyright, that coward, to ignore the implications of Deuteronomy 21:11-20, and Leviticus 25:3-7, though, it seems. Or of any 'marriages' in Numbers 31:18?
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  343.  @AddyOkay  And you must fulfil John 14:13, also - preferably? Do, you, agree? As credentials - kind of matter, in this age. Especially, after all the schisms, disputes, wars - etc. Or 'mistranslations' and so forth...
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  344. And why can Satan reach this world at all? Was he mean't to?
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  345. Ask Paul. he didn't seem that patient or merciful. Maybe not Timothy either.
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  346. Something about it being against nature, and reproduction. Mind you, letting suicidally prideful rebel angels reach here at all seems unnatural to me... Also, they don't always seem to agree on what nature is.
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  347. And what DID OCCUR to those captives in Numbers 31:17, again?
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  348. And for marital and sexual consent? Plus on refusals?
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  349. He made angels too, but new many would fall? Or want to remain exiled? Whereas humans can 'wrongfully' conclude he is a tyrant. So how much free choice was made? Surplus detail can confuse the message.
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  350. I simply wish to know if you can be proven guilty simply by BEING BORN...
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  351. So regarding worthiness...?
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  352. Regarding of sparing people, offering them a way out, to what extent it is offered and for how long, and how easy the journey is. As well as where Eve and Adam's original decision factors into it.
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  353. They are that in self defence, arguably.
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  354. I do not get into trans debates. It is also hard to talk about what is natural when deranged and disloyal angels can roam willy nilly, rebel out of no logical goal, and possibly affect the natural world, also.
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  355. So why do they exist? Why did Satan's orientation exist in him?
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  356. And would that have happened unless God decided to experiment by introducing an unstable variable? So as to - run a loyalty test? Whilst being unseen? Clutter appears to have obscured the intent...
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  357. And if you lengthen Numbers 31:17, it may not imply rape, at all...?
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  358. What of the omissions in the book?
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  359. And is it inherited, or not? Some verses say people can only die for their own sin, other verses say the sins of the father pass on to the children...
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  360. And was YHWH, also?
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  361. I don't see the need to language-police myself (but perhaps I'd ask the same thing of Paul of Tarsus and his categories)
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  362.  @soph4702  Err, HE CHOSE to do that, okay? He CHOSE to separate us. Do not blame ignorant Adam and Eve for doing so. They didn't even understand the wider stakes, beyond to two lives, or what good or evil was, or death. So death could not possibly have deterred them, and with no idea of good or evil, I am not convinced, they can understand obedience. And why has no angel ever gone through such an elaborate test, for THEIR loyalties or obedience? Especially as they all got to chose, without any inherited, bizarre pre birth, curses. Also, did David's son in 2 Samuel 15:18 HAVE to die, as painfully as he did, or not.
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  363.  @soph4702  He made SURE A MAN who broke the Sabbath got put to death - and that Daniel's pretty much BLAMELESS son died, horribly, in 2 Samuel 15:18. Other forms of intervention to sort out some MAJOR MESSES in many churches, before they happened, should be child's play, by comparison. And yes, I have read Job - and why can Satan REVISIT HEAVEN in that case, and be in or near the Presence, of YHWH? An unshrived, impure, sinful, being, like we are told we are, that YHWH can never be directly near, in our lives. And we were NOT IN EDEN and we did not, in any sane or logical way, all 'chose' anything, there.
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  364.  @soph4702  but Job's family also lost big time, and 1 Corinthians 10 is a patented LIE depending on where you lived, among who, which churches, which bits of Christendom, and if you were Jewish, gay, or African, peasants, etc. So kindly make this MORE universal, please, and less about an 'elect'. Or 'pre-chosen', or the non 'natural men'.
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  365.  @soph4702  Okay, fair enough - but do you begin to see my, and others', problems, about this? Who is 1 Corinthians 10 addressed to, either, except those who have already been, maybe, 'saved'? And it's not clear which churches have sufficiently, done that yet, anyway.
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  366.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  I'd agree we cannot all keep up, now...
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  367. And if this involves two way consent? And was - this - IN - Numbers 31:17 - Omega?
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  368. And consent, Omega? I await? Discussion of?
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  369. It depends on the impact on others. Also, do we need to keep ones about what to do with stick gatherers on the Sabbath anymore? Especially as early Church fathers redefined Sabbath as Sunday, not Saturday, in honour of the New creation, from Easter on?
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  370. Also, on the topic of lack of information, I have noticed a few, small, but curious omissions regarding the original civil war in heaven, how it ever began, and what the options of exile were for the rebel angels, concerning their ultimate destination...?
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  371. Depends which bit is more central - forgiveness, belief in innate goodness inside people, or purity. And the latter can get rather subjective.
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  372. Let's hope so. Let's hope the Elohim did not quarrel with each other even MORE than textual analysis implies...
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  373. Natural? Are we to deem from nature alone what is or isn't intended by god? I thought he had partly handed it over to satan in any case? Is it still admissible to the argument that way?
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  374. So did Numbers 31:17 featured coerced marriages, or not...
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  375. He decided that for Numbers 31:17, too, on consent?
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  376. Fair enough. Although I find the actual claims often do not go that far beyond symbolic logic, in many cases, Like how 2 people can choose for a whole species to separate from God...
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  377. And were Canaanite captives in Numbers 31:17, ah, also consenting adults?
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  378. An are we all CHILDREN of him, or crops, or vessels, to be used? Also, what IS a 'natural man', all 1 Corinthians? Is that the most precise word choice, for it?
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  379. @Full Throttle Tell me some of the evidence, then? And what is the RIGHT context for Leviticus 25:46, and 2 Samuel 15:18, and Numbers 31:17? Also, for what Adam DID OR DID NOT know of the stakes, to more than two lives, in Eden, and if he even knew, that Satan existed anyway. Or what death was, or good, or evil.
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  380.  @rudiruttger  Comment on sexuality in Deuteronomy 21, Exodus 21 and Numbers 31:18, if you would? Including how consensual, some of, it was.
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  381.  @rudiruttger  I'm still hoping for your reply, incidentally.
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  382.  @rudiruttger  Well I am asking now. Comment, on how sexuality, is portrayed, and negatively, or positively, in: Deuteronomy 21, Exodus 21, and Numbers 31:18. May help, provide, proper, fuller context, by now.
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  383. A bit dogmatic, at times, maybe? Also, when continual doctrinal disagreements occur...
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  384. Sounds complex. And how is your spiritual experiences?
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  385. May I ask what COUNTS as righteous? And where rape fits in it, Alpha?
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  386. Also, is nature mean't to be self evident proof of YHWH SPECIFICALLY, or not?
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  387.  @jacksongreythelatterdaysai916  And yet how precisely did heaven become imperfect...
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  388.  @jacksongreythelatterdaysai916  ignorant angels becoming dissatisfied and seeking futile rebellion, or experiencing suicidal pride? It doesn't SOUND perfect, at that time.
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  389. And some doesn't make that much sense at all... (see Leviticus 25:46, Numbers 31:17, and others...)
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  390.  @kirby1676  And you'd clarify why hell exists, too, what 1 Corinthians 3:13 and Romans 10:9 to 10:17, were saying - and what knowledge of the wider stakes Eve even had, beyond to her and Adam's life, alone, yes? Or how they made a meaningful choice for yet to be born humans, with no obvious awareness of this, or even awareness of what good or evil were?
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  391. So why could it occur in heaven at all? And why could Satan reach this world? Plus, your thoughts on rape? Of captives?
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  392. Some info on Numbers 31:17's aftermath, would be appreciated, buddy camp? Of the captives?
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  393. And is there a SINGLE proven method of cure? Fully agreed on? By all churches?
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  394. May I again ask if ALL of your communication with YHWH or Jesus has been mediated through the Bible? And not simply speaking into your mind?
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  395. It's also your duty to present it in a CONSISTENT and self coherent manner, I hope? Without OMISSIONS and confusions?
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  396. Suggestions?
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  397. To say what? And would they fill in gaps? Because I must draw attention to a couple...
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  398. Is it not mixed evidence, at moment? And for prophecies, wouldn't something specific like 'a humpbacked king will be dug up in a carpark' be more simple, than 'wars and rumours of wars'? That are frequent?
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  399. Did humans CHOOSE for their own nature to be unreliable? And is the word Father always meaningful, in such definitions?
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  400. And why could it OCCUR in heaven, at all? There's free will; and then there's be just sudden suicidal pride?
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  401. It didn't SEEM like it played a big part in Numbers chapter 31, or Deuteronomy chapter 20...
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  402. Don't the feelings INSIDE count for anything?
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  403. She was in danger in the FIRST place... because...
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  404. Terror just seems to keep being popular...
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  405. Cerastes has no way to fully substantiate all his arguments - perhaps?
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  406. He continually created the possibility for it to happen though? In heaven, as well?
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  407. Will ANYBODY tell me why free will is somehow the answer to every possible mistake Jehovah or the Elohim possibly might have made? And why the free will of rebel demons seems to matter so much? That they can then go spread further mistakes? To people with comparatively diminished awareness and responsibility?
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  408. What was your view on consent in Deuteronomy 20:10?
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  409.  @tomlabooks3263  Okay, and can you somewhat paraphrase, for me? I find, consent, a pretty significant topic... Particularly, when others sometimes characterize some relationships, as lust based, only... Whilst Augustine did have the odd trouble, I hear, with Matthew 27:25, and 1 Corinthians 10...
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  410.  @CatholicWisdom  What they said, basically. Afterall, there are times, women are hardly focused on, in bits of scripture. Women in Numbers 31:18, for example - who did they give birth to, post capture?
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  411. What is a man made thing? When did Adam give the deeds for control of Earth to Satan?
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  412.  @andreasmunzer1143  And what is the community? Also, can you be an angel, be disloyal, and impure - and still visit God directly?
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  413.  @andreasmunzer1143  And why is that? Why is Satan's opinion still of value to Him? And for those that say Satan was not always portrayed AS a rebel, until later texts?
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  414. @Pitts DaThird And which support curing them, or not? And was a cure supposed to be around, for long? Plus, what is your view on say, stoning?
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  415. What should they do instead? Also, what does the verse 'people will neither marry nor be given in marriage in heaven' imply?
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  416. Yes, and why is that not a priority? Why can't there be a quorum? Also, why are there what seems like GAPs at all?
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  417. So - how about you all provide feedback on your experiences perhaps, and then - maybe - COMPARE them with each other? Or do you need to revise the whole procedure for 'testing the spirits' over this?
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  418. But why did the Mosiac laws EXIST? And benefit SOME people over others? More levitical politics?
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  419. Because of course, it can only be HUMAN nature's that broken?
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  420. Well, it can also be about the group that seems the most vocal, perhaps, or seeks the most influence in congress?
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  421. Whereas the words of Jehovah in Numbers and Deuteronomy often seem closer to fouler streams... compare to John 4:18...
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  422. So Leviticus 25:46 was determined by God, Numbers 31:17 was determined by God, and Numbers 5:11? And Samuel 15:15?
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  423. You couldn't be an open Arian or a Franciscan, for a time, though?
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  424. But stoning people and force feeding them rotten meat was completely fine then...
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  425. Just trying to get a view of what Love actually IS - per the Old Testament.
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  426. And yet the church DID once, in prior centuries, produced mixed, and even brutal, corrupt or evil fruits?
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  427.  @oluochogu1567  Then why did they retain their authority, so long? And why was debates on transubstantiation more important than ending slavery, anti Semitism, or feudal and sectarian wars, that many of the partcipants had not real choice in, and were both often Christians on each side?
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  428.  @oluochogu1567  And after Matthew 27:25, for many centuries - did love win? Or vicious suspicion of 'god killers'? And after Leviticus 25:46?
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  429.  @oluochogu1567  So why was this method changed by that point, if God's ways 'never change'? And indeed, the word 'forever' is used in Leviticus 25?
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  430. Various Levite style cultural rules used to exist, for certain... functions. Once the messiah came, what was to happen to Jews next, by the way?
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  431. Fortunately. I would like less evasion of some topics, though...
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  432. So, for how long was it a priority or not to change those things? And for when NOT to put some to death?
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  433. For 'not oppressed',. shall we say... 500 years?
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  434. Complex, but all the best. Did you speak to god?
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  435. When established, yes.
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  436. God NEVER INTENDED angels to rebel either, right? Well it allegedly HAPPENED! And a LOT of them. So WHY?
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  437. Giving angels free will to abuse that free will arguably means they could exert that free will more over those who had LESS free will (or at least, awareness) See whatever led to Babel...
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  438.  @phoenix1985  Yet he did also say 'not one jot or tittle will pass from the law'? And Paul also seemed quite opinionated, about it? Mind you, I got the impression he also could not always make his mind up what the word 'natural' mean't in context, either, so who can say...
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  439.  @phoenix1985  Yeah, but tell it to Paul, the Tarsean hack, and see how that flies...?
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  440. Not that I think he was even in a position to assess ALL of nature, anyway - yet he went and did so anyway, in Romans 1:20, among other places...
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  441. Heaven belonged to God too, yet suddenly angels were dissatisfied...?
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  442. And has God chimed into, a, you, also? I am trying to be, ah, tactful.
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  443. And you feel much of that must also be celibate based, I gather...? Bawd on your own experiences of such?
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  444. And why was Satan ALLOWED to do any of that? Or owed any access to this world?
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  445. And with INHERITED curses, at work too?
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  446. Doubt is now a valid response. Few widescale miraculous events have been seen since the Our Lady of Fatima incident.
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  447. So what does that say about success rate of advertising the message? Or preventing things being added to it? Could it be people felt some areas were not addressed sufficiently?
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  448. Not everything, perhaps, can be ONLY our fault, if some beings are given more power than others...
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  449. And who made that gate? Indeed, who made stability in heaven, if angels lacked for something?
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  450. Marketing as in 'defining and spreading the word, without confusion of brand of straying off message'. See also audience impact.
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  451. We may never know, given all the retranslation and shifts of culture. Paul didn't necessarily meet that many examples or varieties of people. And who knows what James would have thought.
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  452. And it did not prevent a blood libel on medieval Jews? Or feudal wars? Or bring slavery to a rapid end?
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  453. And for rape, what is the full view?
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  454. On the video, anyway.
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  455. Okay, and just, ah, contextualise where Eve and inherited curses fit? With will? Please?
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  456. How so? Did angels make it first?
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  457. Discussion on why Satan can reach this world, Jackyjess?
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  458. Odd how Numbers 5:11 is rarely brought up concerning this topic, either. That could be a bit confusing.
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  459. And how do we narrow the field?
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  460. So how do NEW RECRUITS learn which are the true forms of Christianity? And what happened to 'these things and greater shall you do'?
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  461. Recruits are POTENTIAL - They are the market base, as it were (to get vulgar) And to them is marketed IDEAS and NARRATIVE. The fewer gaps in it, the better. As well as avoiding 'brand confusion' with other creeds and divergent exegetic views...
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  462. And how do you 'cure' them? Replace the feeling? Does the word Metanoia sound familiar?
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  463. Some are, some aren't. Just as some Christians are young Earth creationists, and many are not.
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  464. And why was it necessary? Why could Satan REACH Earth? And did Eve know he existed? Also, why can suicidally, disloyal rebel angels DISGUISE themselves as beings of light?
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  465. Although it might need substantiation, on a few points?
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  466. And why was heaven itself ever IMPERFECT? And why can a suicidally prideful delusional rebel angel reach this world at all? Plus. did Eve have any idea he existed? Or of the stakes to more than her, and Adam?
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  467. Also, many Rabbis used to make that case. But assorted other priests have diverged from it?
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  468. Why could Satan reach Earth by the way? And did Eve know he existed?
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  469. So, can you help? And why could Satan reach this world? Also, your view on Numbers 31:17...?
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  470. Also, I mean about the WOMEN who got taken CAPTIVE...
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  471. And would the WANT to marry them? Also, HOW did it get so bad? Disguised hostile beings can just MOVE around freely? I thought the Flood (that they helped to CAUSE) was mean't to end that sort of thing?
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  472. Disguised rebel angels are presumably hostile, and brought about NECESSITY of Flood, yes?
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  473. What's the difference between aborting an unborn life and aborting a large part of a species into damnation?
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  474. But you do not giv£ th£ whol£ of it, though? how much of th£ir b£haviour is fully, consciously chos£n, or not?
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  475. Why is that? And how many ar£ £xp£ndabl£, or not? Also, why was Satan ow£d anything?
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  476. Huh? consciously? Did Eve have ANY IDEA of this larger stakes, beyond to her and Adam? Why is Satan on this darn world at all, anyway? Why was he owed it? And who CHOOSES to born a 'natural man' ala 1 Corinthians 2:14?
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  477. What happens to Jews, also? And why did slavery continue? With some verses used for anti abolition arguments?
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  478. And fill in gaps, too, Jetwing?
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  479. I'd never expect full agreement. Or forcing people to bake a cake for couples. Just better co-existence would be nice. People still remember inquisitions and heresy trials, I guess.
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  480. Strongest name recogitions can define brand?
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  481. Also, can you clarify why they exist? Why they have those feelings? And if they 'chose' them, really?
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  482. And what is normative for consent?
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  483. So can you reveal, if posible, why Satan could reach Earth, and if Eve knew of stakes to more than her and Adam?
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  484. Beats me. Maybe Origen could have cleared this up, or Plato...
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  485. What lifestyle? And how did Samson and Saul and others live a lifestyle? Or those mostly silenced female prisoners in Numbers 31:17?
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  486. So, in explicit terms - we are NOT born children of God, then? Only adopted? Descriptions vary.
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  487. And so do we all, and for if you can consistently explain creeds?
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  488. Also, what WAS said happened to captives in Numbers 31:17, Mark White? Not all of us are fully clear...
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  489. Everything WHO commanded, Ralph? First we need to establish they are always the SAME god...
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  490. @Çaesar Keep in mind a definition of consensual marriage is also preferred.
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  491. Will the issue in Catholicism ever be fully resolved?
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  492. And given we NEVER learn if suicidal pride in angels was natural...
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  493. How much authority over nature was Satan granted, Horseman...
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  494. Again, HOW much control over nature was Satan granted... Horseman...
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  495. "There is none that do good, not one..." so the claim is (broadly) made. We never see far eastern nations, say, for comparison, or their history. And we get that contrasted by an (Old Testament) God who time and again must resort to violence, and what sometimes resembles schadenfreude, to achieve his goals. And often fails to get what He wants, despite major foresight and alleged omnipotence. Clear communication can also be variable...
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  496. I don't much like it, yes. But about the odd case of Numbers 5:11...?
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  497.  @donimikooyouknow9240  Can you be human, though? Can you have free will? DO WE have full free will, full conscious choice? And how much of nature and human nature is Satan authorised to corrupt, or fiddle with, or mislead on, with few even aware of it? And can Jews be Christians? Do they all agree on what a Mossiach is? When will brother be turned against brother, and that's okay, because 'hate mother and father', somewhat allegorically, anyway, per Luke 14?
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  498.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  Yes, and what did happen to Aaron? Was he spared due to his bloodline? Also, why were any kings or priests of the past having concubines?
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  499.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  Fair enough, I accept that, in principle - but other parts do seem to send mixed messages. And again, what is intended, purpose or otherwise, for 'natural men' ala 1 Corinthians 2, and are they BORN as such?
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  500.  @donimikooyouknow9240  Also, what knowledge or awareness were angels chosen to have? Or would they not really even need it, if all beings in heaven are connected to God's presence, and depend upon it?
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  501.  @donimikooyouknow9240  Fair enough. Simplest method is maybe to ask God himself, but I understand if that may be difficult, immediately.
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  502.  @donimikooyouknow9240  Okay, so have you? Today? Not a book? Not a prior response? A contemporary one?
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  503.  @donimikooyouknow9240  The bible? Timeless words that were not quite timeless enough, when it came to historic administration, of well, some churches? And interaction with some other cultures?
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  504.  @treym.milton5120  Prove it? And what was the plan for Satan KEEPING any powers post exile?
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  505.  @treym.milton5120  HOW DID IT NOT MAKE sense? WHY DID he keep any? To prove WHAT point, post exile?
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  506.  @treym.milton5120  What do you mean, 'has not happened' yet? I think your in a minority, there, compared to other church views.
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  507.  @s97643  Just? Why was Satan OWED anything? Why would his OPINION on Job or others, also MATTER to God, if this was AFTER Satan had thoroughly betrayed God, and proven thoroughly unreliable? And why was he seemingly BACK in heaven, at all, during the Book of Job? I thought sinful or impure beings COULD NOT be in God's Presence, unshrived? Though how sin and ignorance and revolt could EVER form at all, within close proximity to God's presence (which suffuses heaven, and makes all dependent upon it?) is STILL a major mystery, to many of us - thanks.
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  508.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  Yeah, but ALL major religions often lynched each other. Except polytheists, oddly. Roman polytheists killed less people than Christians oddly did to each other in a single day in 24th August 1572, with the then Pope's apparent approval.
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  509.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  And the thing is that Christians DO vary precisely SO much, depending on churches, sects, dogmas, selective use of verses, fervour, siege mentalities, and so forth. It often depends at lot on the preachers, pastors, etc - and how much 'stoking' they may do. Also, WHY would slavery EVER become tolerated, possible, or continual, within Christendom, anyway? Was it not a holy priority to resolve? Was this more 'free will'?
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  510.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  Why would God ever ALLOW any churches to teach slavery would ever continue? Jews ever be tortured? Think historically, here.
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  511.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  I'd would maybe expect some course correction, or intervention? As presumably, some form, can be done? Without destroying the world, or burning people in His presence? Or permitting Satan to do... some things? And were they not supposed to be guided by the Spirit? Did not people look up to them, to protect and guide their nation?
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  512.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  And, no, from how the Fall and the Garden of Eden, and Original Sin, and the Curse of Ham, and Thessalonians 2:19, and 1 Corinthians 2:14, and others have been presented - I DO NOT KNOW how free will IS supposed to be defined. It often seems a moving target, among theologians.
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  513. And how do we compare versions? And denominations? And do you accept assorted claims of spiritual experiences as evidentiary?
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  514. @RedTape Who did what, and why did any suddenly ignorant angels do that either? And is FORCING WOMEN into marriage, or taking bequeathed, 'servants' (but bequeathed, for life) to marry, also righteousness, or unrighteous... depending, on who, espouses it...
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  515. And then what? He also said no jot or tittle would pass from it. Nor is much explanation given for why homosexuals exist?
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  516. And why did that law EXIST? Will people forget it exists? Will preserving a record of it make God more approachable? Or will they be scared/disgusted by verses like Numbers 31:17?
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  517. FINALLY - is that an acknowledgement there are still questions to be ASKED? Worthy ones?
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  518. I know. If we start looking at how ideas about the Elohim changed from the history of the Habiru/Hebrew encountering other cultures, somewhat different aspects of the story emerge.
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  519. Paul DID. He put much store in an old book, with the old Elohim. And the old fear, the old curses, the old tidying up of questions... But today, we have more questions. Starting with why demons could reach Earth...
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  520. But the pope system has never been officially revoked. Worldwide. Billions are still Catholics. Nor has it been clearly stated when things are allegorical (or karmic)
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  521. Seems to have gotten harder for you lately, especially after archaeological and textual analysis. Do parents leave sockets near the bath?
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  522. So if babies get electrocuted, what did the parent do or fail to do?
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  523. Now you know how I feel, Orinoco Flow. This is what happens when a relatively new religion takes form.
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  524. So Luke being a pro Roman gospel - well, it's not very confusing. It just raises questions about motive...
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  525. See also, Yahwist and Priestly sources, Old Testament J, E, D, and P sources/authors....
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  526. Tell me more?
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  527. You could also be an INFORMATIVE Christian, and say how much of nature Satan could OR could not influence or control at all, Christina Tulloch? Merely a suggestion...
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  528. Never mind. We all 'deserve' death anyway, because we can see this invisible God in everything, and instinctively KNOW which bits of nature he gave to Satan to manipulate or control anyway, and which He visibly controls... right?
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  529. And when there are GAPS, or ambiguities?
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  530. Also, why could any re-write it, or decide what language it could be read in?
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  531. Well, what's the solution? And what did used to be done to gay people? How long did the 'not one jot or tittle will pass from the law' viewpoint last? Given Jesus himself also said that?
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  532. And what is a community? Also, what is the 'natural man' of 1 Corinthians...
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  533.  Tan Tan  And how also does He expect it all to end, this era - and also, how much of nature can Satan affect, or not?
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  534. Did Paul? Love all? Or consign some as irremediable?
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  535. Why was the Law the original preference of God previously then? A necessary evil, or just something he did not feel that strongly about?
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  536. Define repent. Define those not given the CHANCE to repent. Also, how metanoia works on homosexuals et al.
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  537. You get one point.
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  538. So the whole Old Testament, Deuteronomy, Numbers - those were just trial runs? Some slightly garbled messages? Luke 9:54-55?
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  539. Luke 9:54 seems subtly critical of the old ways, to me...
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  540. What you'd call a 'dispensation' today.
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  541. And who left the nettles in the garden to cause such suffering?
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  542. It's not your fault. But the contrasting messages and commandments tend to split believers, or encourage paranoia about outsiders on this issue.
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  543. Neither did Jews. Had own definition of messiah. Rectifiable, or not?
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  544. All are based on the Elohim as shapers of the universe and the world. They diverge based on which tribe is to receive the central guidance, from Abraham's time on. If Mohammed is to be described as creative opportunist trying to unite Arabian peoples, the same might be laid at Mousos for leading the Hyksos into exile out of Egypt, merging with Canaanites, and burying bits of the past. Or of Paul reinterpreting Jesus' words in the face of the growing Jewish wars with Rome... Plus, possible Flavius Josephus involvement. If you apply critiques to one, you may as well apply them to all three.
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  545. We get an expanded book, maybe?
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  546. And was that occurring because eyes were taken off the ball? Omniscient eyes?
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  547. This is part of the problem of having a vague definition of what a neighbour is, when set alongside command to hate what is evil...
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  548. Ah, the one who Satan was made a god of, you mean? Did Adam have the authority to transfer ownership of it?
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  549. I can understand why she did. Mind you, the Old Testament did have the ordeal of bitter waters for the latter...
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  550. Remind me what the ordeal of bitter waters was, exactly? Look it up?
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  551. Can he also sign a document also establishing no violent schism, or sexual abuse in the Vatican, will occur again?
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  552.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  Also, what form of Christianity was SUPPOSED to exist, how many rival forms should or should not exist, variant forms etc, and will any be reabsorbed? If one major version is a demonic counterfeit, how have any who are born into it 'chosen' it?
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  553.  Tan Tan  And does eunuch mean assexual, or not typically assexual, and in what context? And what does Paul mean by effeminates, 'reprobates' or the translated term 'arsenokoi'? Also, what was the inheritable aspects of the Curse of Ham in aid of, concerning interior hearts? Of, well, his kids?
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  554. Fix YOUR book. PROVE Nero was not the antichrist. Whether it was the end of the world or end of the Age. What the word Elohim means. And WHY a revolt was permitted in heaven. BEFORE there's another schism, if possible. Then we can talk about how well free will works as an explanation...
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  555. Deny him WHAT? Relationships are consensual. Possessive love is not REALLY love. Mixed messages are also not clear communication.
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  556. PROVE it first. What makes heaven STABLE?
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  557. Ah, so WHICH type of love? Reciprocal, or posessive and jealous? And what of sexual consent, in Numbers 31:17, LegacyOfChrist? Please clarify?
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  558. Also, how does one know what last days are, and why did many think it was in Paul's time? Also, can non Hebrews be adulterous and sinful, as a generation? And what, what oh what, IS a 'natural man'? Did Paul mean that phrase, or did he mean 'unspiritual'?
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  559. In what way? Was Numbers 31:17 an act of sexual immorality, too? And I was referring to it in the sense of 'adulterous' to YHWH. Who many did not grow up with.
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  560. We are always in the last days, it would seem. Even a pyramid supposedly said so, per Jehovah's Witnesses. And for your other question, read 1 Corinthians 2:14. Then maybe James 3:15, I guess.
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  561. How do you make an INFORMED decision without evidence as to HOW and WHY the test of humankind occurred? Or if it involves duress?
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  562. Do you want other members of the congregation to practice abstinence regularly?
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  563. People keep claiming that gay people only experience lust, but every glimpse of a relationship I've seen hints at more than that, whether intentionally or not (on posted vids or unrelated blog content, acquaintances etc)
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  564. There speaks an expert, I guess. I thought flesh wasn't supposed to be that important? Plus, define temple prostitution...
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  565.  @souhiyori8032  Oh, do we? Equally, post Adam, Eve, and curse of Ham's son, or not? Or post 1 Corinthians 2:14, and 2 Thessalonians 2, about 'strong delusion'. Or those 'predestinate' in Jude 1:4 and 2 Timothy 1... Anyway, yes it is a little complicated. Also, if Gregory XIII, Calvin and Torquemada, were 'not true Christians', then how were ordinary laypeople to know this, if they never got chastised, removed, or punished? Or showed powers John 14:12, style, say.
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  566. Did Paul espouse this also in 2 Chronicles 2:19 and 1 Corinthians 2:14, equally? And can he use the word 'natural' consistently, both there, and in Romans 1:20, the sad potato :3?
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  567. And I'd love to know what many believers say of Numbers 31:17 in relation to it...
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  568.  Oucast American  Unfortunately, yes, at times, the ones who shout loudest or parade the messages most fervently, end up defining the brand. Call it a law of advertising, but it may also apply to religions, at times.
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  569. @Debonte Pitts But since there is not yet a single, unified church, what are leftists to conclude? Or many other outsiders?
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  570. Incest, maybe? Adam's children?
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  571. Provided the beliefs are always consistent and not tautological, between churches?
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  572. Are churches still at war too? Catholics - billions of them - apparently non biblical. God did not 'intend that', I hear. Revolts in heaven? Not intended. Caterpillars being eaten from the inside by wasps? Not intended. Invisible agents of sabotage creating counterfeit religions? God did not intend that... Free will? Well, I hear God INTENDED that. So WHAT THEN? What was EXPECTED to happen next? In heaven AND in Earth? Go forth, ask the Elohim if you like (all the shining ones, angels, powers, principalities, the lot)
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  573. Some say Christianity is not a religion, it's a relationship...
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  574. God wanted Him to have those powers, did He not, @ Дшордан Адо ?
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  575. I see. And as you are, could you answer some questions...?
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  576. Is this is explorable?
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  577. So, we can agree 1 Corinthians 2:14 is a bit dubious, then?
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  578. It's rather convenient and gap filled ideas of what a 'natural man' is, and how they somehow cannot see ways of god?
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  579. And what of rape? .What of those?
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  580. I was asking Jackson. But it relates to Numbers 31:17,. and loose ends
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  581. @Vitaz How do we know He doesn't change? Suddenly the old law was invalid, Jews were SOMEHOW to infer this, and suddenly the gentiles were clean, in God's eyes (according to a VERY odd story about killing and eating food - killing - in a dream, that is) And what of the times God Repents of making humans?
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  582.  @emiliomilian369  And should I worry about OTHERS going to hell/ sheol, and why any were put at risk of this, at all? Why was Satan owed anything?
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  583.  @emiliomilian369  Odd, then, that he kept any powers upon exile, could reach Earth at all, and could get back into heaven, to discuss Job's life?
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  584.  @emiliomilian369  God did not have to allow him those things, I suppose?
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  585. And given humans are generally NOT BORN knowing exactly who God is, or how many there are, or which bits of nature are controlled by him, and which by Satan... and Eve wasn't even made aware of what good and evil were, I gather...?
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  586. And was it in Numbers 31:17....?
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  587. How did he design life in Heaven for ANGELs to be? AND why would so many not want to live it? Were they delusional? So many?
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  588. Eunuchs. Well, not like we get the full context there (OR for temple prostitution)
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  589. Do you understand? What an Eunuch is? Or all the subtext? Temple prostitution and other cultures around in those times? Pederasty? Paul didn't visit the entire world, or see every custom, sexual or otherwise.
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  590. Well, as it does NOT say how jeopardy came to exist, or rather, why demons could reach Earth, and if God would make himself unhappy... And it DOES say he used to feed rotten meat to complainers during the Exodus, what do, we, er, conclude?
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  591. About consent - in Numbers 31:17? Or in 11:1?
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  592. Tis against nature, or sign of demonic sabotage - some say. Or that people somehow inherit it from psychological errancy in past.
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  593. So why was heaven ever imperfect? How in the ever loving fook can sin appear in HEAVEN?
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  594. And if your are angels, then you initially get exiled to Earth, then? To be part of an experiment in free will, and curses?
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  595. Which is? And does it ever make Him unhappy?
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  596. @Humanity Galatica And a society that tolerated slavery or any AMBIGUITY on slavery, for ANY length of time, medieval or otherwise, if church guided, seems a fairly ODD society, indeed.
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  597. @Humanity Galatica European Christian history?
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  598. @Humanity Galatica Though often an uphill struggle, to end feudal and sectarian wars, hanging, drawing, quartering, or slave labour? Or the appalling events of the St Bartholomew's Day massacre, potentially?
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  599. @Humanity Galatica Yes, but how did it START to begin with? How was Leviticus 25:46 MEAN'T to be seen? And if it was applied WRONGLY, how could it be, and how did it even persist, in wrong application? Also, to those who merely want the story properly expanded? Upon free will, the Fall, Job, and all?
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  600. Pope Gregory XIII reportedly REJOICED the huge number of Huguenots and others slaughtered in 1572. Is that right? And how many people are exactly to pass... the test? Why did many see the Jews as cursed for centuries, in the past, either? Many of them apparently priests?
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  601. Do you happen to know why a blood libel on medieval Jews would ever happen?
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  602. So, some angels became suicidally rebellious because...?
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  603. No, we were made so that two humans who had no idea what good, evil, Satan, probably death, or stakes to more than their own two lives were, were able to make major choices for all humans yet to come, all because Satan's OPINION on humans mattered to YHWH - for some reason?
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  604. It is something they often revert to, in habit.
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  605. Also, why was YHWH ever jealous? Violently so?
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  606. That is true. That's part of the rich tapestry of reality today. One Paul and Timothy did not always seem to respect. Or at worst, another sign that Christians cannot basically unify over very simple (perhaps) things. Nor will God intervene to make basic suggestions.
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  607. So, reciprocal, or possessive love? And for confusion, why was Satan owed anything?
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  608. Fabrics seems to be about tribal demarcation (and perhaps, of left brain and right brain splits) See also not cooking a goat in it's mother's milk.
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  609. Love also works better if people are NOT under confusing duress.
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  610. So why could some angels do it? What did they have to feel denied about?
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  611. Good to see civil discourse. Also, why would Christianity come to vary at all? Why was one book so fluid? Or have gaps?
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  612. Bar any typical issues with insecurity, jealousy or impulsiveness, found in any ordinary person, anyway.
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  613. And this was all WORSE than Numbers 31:17, was it, Matteo Hoch? And Exodus 21:20? Or Samuel 15:15?
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  614. So this is strictly over your views of what is or is not natural, then, I gather?
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  615. Anyway, never mind, I mean't it for 阿尔法 primarily, anyway.
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  616. Dunno. Paul of Tarsus did not always seem to know what he mean't, by it, either. And is what is natural for this world, natural for heaven too, and so on...
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  617. It does not matter. I was trying to ask 阿尔法 by what grounds he judged things to be natural or despicable, at all. I got you muddled up, so never mind.
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  618. I'm getting my licks in before that antagonistic carper 阿尔法 comes back...
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  619. All the same guy again, is it?
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  620. Including on if heaven is stable... or always values sexual consent...
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  621. Well, somehow you have to PROVE they are not 'real' Christians, of course. And that their spiritual experiences are somehow less genuine. How are we to establish this?
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  622. cough, old serpent chained... cough, blog... ahem. Sorry, continue.
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  623.  Tan Tan  Why didn't all angels believe such warnings? Or be created ignorant at all?
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  624.  Leon Kennedy  And which is this? Plus, what is Numbers 31:17's full take, on sexual consent?
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  625. The Old Testament had - ah, SOME issues with reality at times? Like the story of how to breed ship? Or the thinness of oxygen over the highest mountains in a flood?
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  626. (breed sheep)
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  627. What's the source? In terms of channelling or angels, or visions, I mean?
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  628. And what has He said, lately to you? I ask for clarification?
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  629. Can you detail more on how that works?
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  630. Like some angels in heaven? Was Numbers 20:10 a bit depraved, also?
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  631. How well does James 3:15 fit with Romans 1:20?
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  632. Seems to have done well at certain times...
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  633. Well, what do you think it means? And which denomination does Discernment the best? Or can answer why Satan was owed any access to this world?
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  634. Why was Satan owed any right to tempt anyone? Especially by having more free will and powers than mortals had, since Eve? And whilst disguised as a being of light?
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  635. And for sexual consent, King Squaa, describe Numbers 31:17 to me... in detail, please.
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  636. Like with Matthew 27;25, perhaps.
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  637. And that humans cannot save selves, or something?
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  638. A rebellion must be CONSCIOUS for it to BE rebellion, or it is just linked to the ignorance, and the idea of Brokenness. Can we at least define the boundaries for THOSE first?
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  639. And did God INTEND translations to be off?
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  640.  @nidhijacob81  I worry more that Christians believe so many differing things, and do not seem aware of the confusion that causes (plus so many textual omissions, too)
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  641.  @nidhijacob81  The unstated issue, unfortunately, often being 'which particular God' or particular interpretation of that god, however. Particularly as self evident materia is often lacking, for some?
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  642.  @nidhijacob81  Not necessarily. It depends what also is said about humanity in general, on behalf of that god, perhaps?
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  643. Love is a promise, a commitment. It is decidedly not a 1-way possessive thing, or a jealous bipolar rage. Or a tearing apart of families and cultures to prove a point to a nutty, delusional, disloyal angel, maybe? Point also to heavenly impure vessels and clarify how any of that was possible, before pointing fingers solely at mortal realm...
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  644. And if any of nature WAS fiddled with or manipulated with by Satan, clarify, so we can all discern what or what is or is NOT a fully CONSCIOUS and free choice... include inherited curses, too, maybe?
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  645. It's more for Alpha and others, really, isn't it?
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  646. I'm sorry, I just like to get to the point, as I see it, sometimes. Such debates can really drag on, at times, and Alpha and others can be... evasive. Or sketchy.
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  647. Never mind, I just wanted to advance the debate. Did no notice Alpha and the like had left.
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  648. And for that, I generally agree..
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  649. When we have gaps on some things, some have to work it out, or ask for more... Sometimes it works out. And sometimes we get the inquisition in Spain...?
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  650. How though? How do you prove the Test was not rigged? Or that heaven is a stable place, when it fragmented before?
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  651. Well, people keep telling me the temptation and the curse on fruit of Eve was all because of 'free will' - and thinking in depth about it, it does not seem to add up. Not that all denominations have the same idea about original sin, either (can I invoke Jehovah's Witnesses, for one?)
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  652. Sorry If I am burdening you. I know many cultural Christians don't spend that much time on the obscure details.
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  653. And it emphasises Luke 14:26, too, apparently.
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  654. Well, traditionally, it was often folded in with 'sexual misconduct', but in a very broad way (as was typical of such open ended statements, at time) As is often case, human empathy and imagination could limit articulation of the ideas.
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  655. And from this and other issues, Tan Tan, do we conclude multiple Christs are in people? What is also your view of Catholicism? And Eastern Orthodoxy? Plus tensions and armed conflicts between?
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  656. It had real consequences, for many. And for how long was it until gays were not automatically put to death? Or many Jews driven out? Einstein was also a deist, and a fan of Spinoza's views - which tended to be untraditional about theist and monolatrist concepts of god. Also, many today still claim to HEAR from the one god, but do not always give consistent answers on same topics... And I still do not know what you mean by glory, at times? Sometimes it can seem... vindictive, in earlier writings?
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  657. This is th£ standard also in Nuimb£rs 31:17, and Samuel 15:15, and D£ut£ronomy 20:20, just to confirm, y£s? And what did b£com£ of captiv£s, in Numb£rs 31:17, again? Thos£ spar£d?
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  658. Rd v£rs£s first. I cannot h£lp my damag£d k£yboard.
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  659. Verses I listed.
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  660. But is say, Numbers 31:17 also clear cut? or Leviticus 25:46?
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  661. So angels are allowed to keep existing, and also to begin corrupting humans. Whereas humans could potentially be executed by acts of war, as in Numbers?
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  662. I suppose those do appear as fairly evident results, unlike some systems.
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  663. Please tell me more about Numbers 31:17, please, BEFORE we discuss sexual immorality more. And CONSENT.
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  664. Also, of if Eve was ever under delusion, or people from Babel, or assorted others... And what this means for the 'natural man' of Corinthians 2...
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  665. And how does this compare to Romans 1:20? About what nature is or isn't? And what happened to CHILDREN seeing things the wise could not?
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  666. Revelation is a personal truth. And when the Bible is NOT fully CLEAR, what do we do? Such as on sexual consent, in Numbers?
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  667. Possible reincarnational debris, if one takes Origen literally, I suppose.
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  668. Does this also include ignorant, suicidal or dissatisfied angels, in some ways, @Mary katherine Atwell? I am still confused about that?
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  669. And were you healed, and why were so many NOT healed? Why did the likes of Mark O'Shiro beg to speak to God, and to not be gay, but got no answer? And got shunned and abused by his church?
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  670. And what is the world? Who is the god of this world, and why ALLOW him to be god of this world? Or is it just the Roman empire?
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  671. It's a book that still has GAPS, and ambiguities, and contradictions... Sorry, I thought you knew....
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  672. So, Tan Tan, what did Jesus actually SAY to you, as book as not very reliable? And why was Satan owed anything?
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  673. And leading up to the next schism...?
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  674. They don't provide sufficient context.
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  675. Who knows what it INTENDED to say... We could find out what is does not say so clearly first, perhaps? Like why demons were permitted to reach Earth?
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  676. I never found the idea of a super-temporal God completely INCREDIBLE, just that he seems able to LOOSE at his goals, so much. And be surprised by mere free will. Plus, he won't say how much of nature he controls...
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  677. And why Satan had any access to this world, at all, yes? With powers kept? Also, if Satan CAN corrupt, alter or partially control bits of nature, does that complicate Romans 1's argument, in some ways? Including about the evidentiary nature of - well, nature?
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  678. How do we KNOW, though? Many thought it was Rome, for a long time - though it fits pretty WELL overall, for the Beast/ 7 horns and all. But what if AMERICA is also Babylon? You see how ambiguous it all is? And why would many be BORN into false creeds, if they supposedly had free will? Oh, you have 'free will' to decide if your OWN culture is lying to you, I suppose? Or to conclude that, even if, historically, the contending side had persecuted your culture?
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  679. @Debonte Pitts And why are there ANY false religions, exactly? Why was that privilege owed to rebel angels? After the Eden curse made humans UNABLE to see them, or God? And the jeopardy initially began at all, because...?
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  680. So why were angels able to sin? Was this a wrinkle of free will? Why were they not separated from humans, if contaminated?
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  681. Would beings in the flesh rebel against an all powerful being in a perfect place, where they could SEE him? Would people in the flesh want to stone people for talking back to parents? By default? Would they force feed complainers rotten meat?
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  682. How do TWO people make a choice for all the unborn, if they did not actually have knowledge of good and evil at the time? Did they even know that they could have children? If they were immortal, does that mean ALL immortal people can have children? Ad infinitum?
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  683. Shouldn't they be? Won't many people be thinking them anyway, even if not asking them? How does it make evangelism easier? Wouldn't they be curious why jeopardy even exists at all? And why beings would sin in heaven?
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  684. So why MAKE flesh? Did ANGELS LACK FOR FLESH? IS THAT WHY THEY REBELLED? IN A PERFECT HEAVEN?
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  685. I DID. It AVOIDED certain topics. And would you make me endure reading Numbers chapter 11 again? Or Deuteronomy chapter 20?
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  686. Do fallen angels DISGUISE themselves, or not? What is the risk to people in the first generation after Babel, with confused language? And hazy recollections? Or the third generation? Or the twelfth?
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  687. Mmm, hard to say. It is easy to start stereotyping.
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  688. And what of the spiritual experiences they may say they have?
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  689. Horseman?
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  690. I'm not sure they've given him all that much thought, he being so shy and all. It's more about how they find their own happiness, with the nature they were given. Or, if you like, that one Satan was allowed to fiddle around with, God knowing what the likely result would be...
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  691. And how could this apply to 200 other angels? It seems like they may have lacked something, possibly to do with curiosity about flesh and embodiment. But attempts to fill in the ontological gap are rife and varied, among many pro or amateur theologians. That lays the seed for schisms, don't you think?
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  692. So Romans 1:20 has very LITTLE to say about nature being good and USEFUL after all, then? Mind you, the word 'world' is used so many ruddy times and in such broad context, it starts to look opaque. Or too flexible.
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  693. Define whether this is reciprocal or POSSESSIVE love being talked about? And why heaven did not SEEM to have always been perfect?
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  694. And was slavery always detestable to him too? And what became of female captives in Numbers 31:17?
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  695. Unless he commits the similar acts, potentially...?
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  696. So, for evidence of what became of prisoners...? Also, Buddhism makes many, ah, similar claims, for one...?
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  697. Didn't Castaneda make it a bit more complex? Although I mainly know about the Tonal though...
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  698. I assume he means there has to be an ultimate Source, of life, or morality. Even though communities are complex, and as they get bigger, laws often have to be reframed.
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  699. And what is the design of angels? And why would some become ignorant, suicidally delusional or rebellious? In heaven?
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  700. And your view on what is sexually moral, and of consent? O am getting... a little frustrated at your skipping my query.
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  701. SO, which one was IN Numbers 31:17? In context?
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  702. Why is that word, ah, INCOMPLETE? And does not always say things about consent?
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  703. Although Paul seemed to think some 'natural men' were inherently against God?
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  704. And NOT with a book, right? Also, it's two-way, and not possessive love?
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  705. Well - it seems to be SCARING many people off. Was that constructive? Just getting past Deuteronomy is hard for some...
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  706. Sometimes knowing you are not clay to be discarded can reassure someone told they are like a child...
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  707. And a lack of clear consent in Numbers 31:17, may or may not have led to rape?
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  708. And were some lives, say, pre Abraham,. loved less?
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  709. And to how much was it a CONSCIOUS choice for them to feel that way, also? And how much of nature can Satan influence?
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  710. @Porto Fino And yet one billion people are Catholics? Did God want that? And how many variations of Christianity ARE there supposed to be?
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  711. Ah, kinda too late though? If it's not supervised, and goes off like a landmine, why bother? Similar issues for Matthew 27:25 too, perhaps.
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  712. Like Numbers 31:17 - et al?
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  713. How are to KNOW it wasn't evil?
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  714. But all those Romans are dead (and later, many Jews) so what now?
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  715. Any suggestions for a solution? YHWH wasn't taking my call...
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  716. So your view of Numbers 5:11, then? And of consent in Numbers 31:17?
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  717. And the overall definition of such is...? Also, of maintaining what distance from 'the world'?
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  718. It is for The Honest, Truth, technically.
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  719. Though I would ask your definition of a true Christian...
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  720. For what a Christian is, does, or what parts of the world they keep themselves apart from? As it can vary so much. Plus, your view on Corinthians 2:14? Also, on celibacy...
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  721. Excuse me, been thinking... Can someone tell me what Jesus PRIMARILY IS? Is he about family? Safety? Obedience? Purity? In a realm where many angels mysteriously rebelled? Is he about pride, weeding, war, judgement, division and fear? Why do churches give so many DIFFERING emphasises about Him? Where is the FAMILY in this, if you have to put Him first, but have Him defined so many divisive ways? What happens to our feelings for others who are jeopardised, perhaps?
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  722. And why were any angels unhappy in Heaven? Also, if they were disloyal, why allow them any access to Earth?
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  723. But surely f they have a clear and fulfilled role with KNOWLEDGE, then I don't see how pride enters into it. Least of all suicidal pride?
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  724. Also, people keep saying 'cast down'. I do not understand. is Heaven only 10 miles above Earth? Is there no other place of exile?
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  725. Which? And all those dead kids and servants? And the drowned women and children? And possession? And 'counterfeit' religions, which can initially (at least) seem about as credible? Also, what does Elohim ACTUALLY mean? And which word did Saul use to describe Samuel, when called up from dead? Nephesh, or Elohim?
    1
  726. And if He's (and the other council members) not bound by time, what was He seeking to learn? And would He ever consciously make Himself upset...?
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  727. Alpha & Omega?
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  728. When did she CONSCIOUSLY hate or reject God? She hasn't physically MET him. And she receives CONTRASTING claims about Him as well, including what kind of love he embodies. Hence why QUITE A FEW believers will ignore certain verses. Cog-ni-tive dis-o-nance.
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  729. Where I live, communication happens in real time, in a way that meanings are not distorted or lost, and where Pesher codes aren't crucial to later understanding. Mixed metaphors about children and crops might also make things harder to understand. As for the - Curse - of - Ham - and his UNBORN - children...
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  730. Satire, I suppose. But definitely pointed.
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  731. Do we START by loving our neighbour, or an invisible being to whom access is guarded by book editors?
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  732. Maybe all the way back to split with East Orthodoxy? Or omission of Maccabees and others?
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  733. And why would angels wish to sin, in heaven? Or ever conclude they could win? And why can they reach Earth?
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  734. I don't know if he is CONSCIOUSLY or not. But I don't know if gays CONSCIOUSLY rebel - or not. He leaves me little to go on.
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  735.  @maryphilips1795  So, are they equally so loved - and also, were medieval Jews, post 1 Corinthians 10, loved EQUALLY so, in Spain, Italy, etc, by Jesus? To merit more action, or comparable say, to turning up to condemn a man for working on Sabbath, as in Numbers 15? Was more action warranted, at or above that level, to protect them from errant theologians, priests, bishops, Popes, etc? Or inquisitors.
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  736.  @maryphilips1795  And were medieval Jews circa 1572, and under Augustine, Gregory XIII, and Torquemada, EQUALLY loved, or not? Worthy of equal time or attention, from Jesus, to aid their safety? Worth at least as much, as turning up in Numbers 15:32, to ensure, a Sabbath breaker, got stoned - or not, as worth, of the time? Help me, out, here.
    1
  737. So, what purpose is religion mean't to serve? To inform of God? Does not always work clearly... Nor to keep us all safe?
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  738.  Bob Snider  By which God, and why couldn't all angels abide by Him? And read Revelations again - I do not believe it says we DO GO to live, in heaven, either. More like, we live on this world, perfected?
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  739.  @MC_MMV  What, in the same realm where evil, sin, and suicidal pride was first CONCIEVABLE of, by one third of all angels? That sounds a little worrying. And what of Romans 9:22? Also, why was Satan OWED anything - especially on this world? Powers to keep, access to here, knowledge of good and evil before Eve or Adam got it, and they told nothing about him... And which Christology, do we mean, also...?
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  740. So why would some angels not then? If, unlike humans, they could SEE God, all the time? And never experienced strong delusion?
    1
  741. No, but neither should we let inquisitors or Popes do whatever they wanted, historically. Or kings starting wars?
    1
  742. You, - really - tell US - that, Horseman? After saying everybody is guilty? Broken, impure? Hurting God? You say 'as long as they're not threatening others, killing, stealing, lying..."? Are we seeing a new side?
    1
  743. Some just want answers, I guess - and explanations.
    1
  744. Also, very FEW of them could tell me what the Ordeal of Bitter Waters was, scripturally.
    1
  745. Again, Horseman (and as no real fan of abortion) I ask you to define for me what the Ordeal of Bitter Waters is, from the Old Testament?
    1
  746.  @Kkelys  and when that faith is betrayed, and Jewish lives are deemed less valuable (and African slaves) than the justice over one act of Sabbath breaking, in Numbers 15 - what then? And which Christology and which soteriology, too. Some things need more than blind trust - maybe even John 14:12 type credentials, too, to help avert the 'wrong' sects converting people? Especially if they missionize first, to a nation.
    1
  747.  Tan Tan  So, how much of nature can or cannot Satan alter, warp or partially control? With quotes, if possible?
    1
  748.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  What if that's all too simplified, anyway? Why just one destination, or one judgment seat? How do we know that's all that's involved? What of the life review? Sidpa Bardo and other Buddhist style concepts?
    1
  749.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  Also, you'd probably want to look up how a theory is used as a definition, in physics, these days - it's NOT always the same as hypothesis. And we have major confidence that SOME major massive heat source and rapid expansion did occur, even if with some uncertainty on the exact details and cause, and underlying quantum geometry, et al.
    1
  750.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  So far, so good, yes. But just to show, such things cannot be explained away. Like many try with the round earth/flat earth issue. Bridges are built a certain way to take advantage of the curvature of the Earth, and that's open for general knowledge.
    1
  751. Is it different for angels? They can SEE God, after all (also, would seemingly have no good REASON to rebel, let alone 1/3 of them)
    1
  752. But it couldn't happen for the SAME reasons, could it? Because many are not certain there IS a God, or that his views have been made clear. A book is not exactly the same thing (plus people argue about it, churches split, schism...)
    1
  753. If you define sin as 'rebellion', then rebellion must first be CONSCIOUS in order to BE a rebellion...
    1
  754. Death from being cut off from nature, or death because one elohim decided it was so?
    1
  755. How exactly, was it contaminated? Does that suggest free WILL itself was contaminated?
    1
  756. And can Jews magically become Christians? Or Sikhs?
    1
  757. Also, which type of Christ? And which one will Jews learn of? And which one did Mark O'Shiro learn of, before being abused, rejected, and walking away?
    1
  758. And did Eve KNOW that more was at stake than her and Adam alone?
    1
  759.  10 LMS  Fair point, but what WAS supposed to be done to them? Stone them? Cure, them? Encourage celibacy? Which was it?
    1
  760.  10 LMS  Well, I'm not gay, just a concerned citizen. And if you'll show the voluntary marriage certificates too of the captive women in Numbers 31:17, maybe...?
    1
  761.  10 LMS  I'm just asking, what was the standard method for, well, helping with, or, ah, resolving them, across much of prior Christendom history? Did God add any other details? Which word was Arsenekoi mean't to translate as, also?
    1
  762. Even if you have no idea how to help them complete that process, and have a hit and miss approach to metanoia...
    1
  763. And do they REMAIN healed? Or later experience cognitive dissonance? Will someone check?
    1
  764. And for why any soul was put into risk? To satisfy some claim of Satan's, or not?
    1
  765. And what is it's view of rape?
    1
  766. And participating in Numbers 31:17 is right? Always?
    1
  767. Bipolar? Why permit Earth to be compromised by demons at all?
    1
  768. Ok, but what is a reprobate, and a carnal mind, and what did Romans 1:20 refer to? Also, what the heck IS a 'natural man' in Corinthians 2:14?
    1
  769.  Tan Tan  Okay. And as I suggested, there may be a very simple way, to resolve this...
    1
  770. And where was the apple/fig?
    1
  771. How so? And why were many angels not?
    1
  772. And that definition includes Numbers 31:17?
    1
  773. How many forms dos this d£lusion tak£? And do£s it £xplain doctrinal wars in past, or p£rs£cution of J£ws within Christ£ndom, also?
    1
  774. @Porto Fino According to 1 Corinthians 2:14, what is a 'natural man'? And what bits of nature are compromised? Does that mean that NOT ALL of nature clearly bespokes only a single hand or creator after all, then? And what of James 3:15?
    1
  775. Same old circle. When you love people the way Jehovah does, INCLUDING having Sabbath breakers stoned or complainers bit with fiery serpents, unborn people cursed or put in slavery, or women carried off as breeding partners, will you get back to us? And how come we can forgive people without needing to use blood for it? And do we send dangerous disloyal criminals to the one new planet where they could do the most damage, because apparently free will needed the potential of complete destruction to be present?
    1
  776. They do like to operate from old tribal precedents, a lot.
    1
  777. Yes, and the jealous, bipolar, likely hypocritical and violent mouthpiece Jehovah seems to be - and who may set out to make Himself unhappy, deliberately? And of whom we have STILL not learned why he permitted Satan to keep any powers or reach this world, whilst Eve was not trusted to know some fairly simple pieces of knowledge? As might be expected for a Steward to know?
    1
  778.  @frankwater6579  Sorry? Possession? Illusion? Posing as a being of light? Which of these are not described in the Bible? And can he alter or corrupt bits of nature, or not?
    1
  779.  @frankwater6579  And it takes thousands of years to tell us this? To also hint 'know ye not that ye are gods'? And what of all those other, far flung nations, with confused, nay, erased, oral histories, back before Babel? Made more vulnerable, or less so, via that approach?
    1
  780.  @frankwater6579  Most of 'the god'? I see. And how could Satan reach Him again, afterward? To be in His presence?
    1
  781.  @frankwater6579  People have asked Him before, including begging to not be gay, and to talk, and many were not answered. Is this fairly curious?
    1
  782.  @frankwater6579  You tell me? But they were in many cases PART of a church, even if that church often SHUNNED or harassed them.
    1
  783.  @frankwater6579  Hmm? So, your view on WHERE exactly Satan was, during the Book of Job, would be what, exactly?
    1
  784.  @frankwater6579  What I ACTUALLY was looking for was SOME consistency on position, and on explication, of how this all came to be, or what God was ACTUALLY seeking to make occur, in this context - but have it your way, if you like.
    1
  785. Ah, and how does Romans 1:20 help with that?
    1
  786. Go to which version, again?
    1
  787. What form of eunuch was prevalent at the time? Also, a n g e l i c, did you give the like, or did Tan Tan do it? I am merely curious.
    1
  788. And did he get agitated about the blood libel on medieval Jews?
    1
  789. And for why He sent a disloyal angel to this world, at all, also...
    1
  790. @Jack Reacher Are you against cursing Ham's children?
    1
  791.  @phoenix1985  Also, per translations, is 1 Corinthians 2:14 meant to be saying 'the natural man' or 'the man without the Spirit'?
    1
  792. However complex that has become... Jews have also had a tradition of the flawed world, and needing to become tenders and repairers of it. This may have been a later Rabbinic tradition, however.
    1
  793. And where does Paul fit in, creating categories, in Corinthians, and Romans 1?
    1
  794. He claimed there was the 'natural man' in Corinthians 2, to who the ways of God were 'utter foolishness', and speaks also of carnal and reprobate minds? Also, implicitly, of gay people? (as he defined then, from what sample he felt he had)?
    1
  795. But some sort of do believe in an afterlife, or have a communal experience of sorts, so it is not always so neat. Or easily packaged in churches.
    1
  796. But how is he introduced? Experienced? What if they feel they have contacted him? What would Paul M. Young and Lorna Byrne say about the matter, either? It's not always a monolithic situation.
    1
  797. People can believe material was translated wrong though, or misinterpreted. It can all get very personal and subjective. Young and Byrne both wrote books claiming to have communicated with God and learned expanded info from him...
    1
  798. And yes, the psychology can be VERY mixed up and disturbed. But it's not always easy for some of them to walk away, or find an alternative.
    1
  799. I suppose they fear 'letting him down' or loosing the connection they feel they just got, presumably.
    1
  800. Also that there might be something 'wrong' with them, yes. To varying degrees. Such is my grasp of it.
    1
  801. Are Catholics Christians, either?
    1
  802. I assume they mean that both claim to feel an 'uncontrollable attraction' or something? And thus can't be sure it's 'normal'?
    1
  803. And how long have you felt that way?
    1
  804. Or do you mean pederast? And how did Paul define 'effeminate' people? Also, is it all okay, because it was just a mistake - and no use crying over tortured and executed peeps?
    1
  805. Discuss 'brokenness' (TM, Paul of Tarsus and others...)
    1
  806.  @femboyfairy  And do we do that by changing their minds, or other ways? And as many are convinced they have a once and for all, unchangeable message to all humanity, it may be very hard to do that.
    1
  807.  @haya8822  Sorry, and is being a homosexual transmissible? Can it be spread merely by ideas? Walk me through the science, for that?
    1
  808.  @haya8822  Well, He may want to make it all clearer, then, instead of relying overmuch on a book with so many gaps in it, or outspoken preachers, priests, and others, who do not always seem clear or in agreement on their own views, or conclusions?
    1
  809. Done what for? Why was it needed? Why was Satan owed ANY access to this world, and to humans? Even to TWO?
    1
  810. And how many masters does nature, have ? One, or two?
    1
  811. Seemed for a while like any old crap could get written in the book. Thoughts on Numbers 11:19, for instance?
    1
  812. True; like not all 'natural men' cannot do good?
    1
  813.  @That1Guy112  Do you likewise, hate the idea of captive women being compelled into marriages, biblically? Yay or nay? And sin began in heaven, I recall - not on Earth.
    1
  814.  @That1Guy112  I would prefer your answer, to my prior comment, at some point.
    1
  815. Sometimes in a vague or inept way, perhaps, though, @HAPPYKIWI :3 ?
    1
  816.  @CHS20507  like St. Paul never being very clear cut on what a 'natural man' is? Or if we should shun the carnally minded? Or the lasting damage Matthew 27:25 and Leviticus 25:46 did, unintentionally, or otherwise?
    1
  817. What does it take to be a child? If you get existent without earning it, why do you suddenly have to earn it? I like getting along with brothers and sisters around the world, but when invisible beings run experiments...
    1
  818. So why were we created? if it was KNOWN we'd go off kilter. And that only some minds could accept the renumerative offer? (to say nothing of the ethical interpretation)
    1
  819. Well, this is somewhat unexpected. I'd be otherwise willing to let you both fight it out, but you do seem very rude, Dan saber...
    1
  820. Know not what they do? Who knew what they'd do to future generations of Jews when talking about 'his blood be upon us and our children'? If that were found to be a later addition to the text (as was seen with some other verses...)
    1
  821. blood libel. His blood be upon US. Result - persecution and many dead Jews across the centuries, often slain by citizens of Christendom...
    1
  822. Are we talking sodomy as some kind of code word here? like how idolatry has many subjective layers?
    1
  823. What does it mean to have an unstable heaven, or knowledge a flood will be needed, and still let fallen angels reach Earth?
    1
  824. Maybe it should not be, but to FUNCTION, practically, in a living, visible world, it often HAS to be (subjective)
    1
  825. Like Leo the Tenth, maybe...
    1
  826. Remind me why a curse on unborn people was necessary again? And why Satan's opinion he be allowed to tempt people would even matter to YHWH?
    1
  827. Hence why, maybe, it could be updated. Leave the pesher code bits intact, but clarify some other bits? aha...
    1
  828. So, why were any angels drawn away? And what is the 'natural man' of 1 Corinthians 2:14? Did any choose to be born that way?
    1
  829. Harsh...
    1
  830. Is it the WHOLE truth though, Alpha? And again, how much of nature did or did not Satan manage to influence or alter...
    1
  831. Also, to which God, which denomination, and how does discernment work for latter...
    1
  832. What is the grounds for rape and other non consensual sex, however, Alpha? I feel I must clear some of that up, first?
    1
  833. And I am not against Christians, however many types there are. I am against dogma that can border on the totalitarian, and still have GAPS about why. And had seemingly led to infighting and deaths, on a wide scale, in the past. Yes, it was likely not intentional that this occur, but it still happened... somehow.
    1
  834. I've looked at quite a few, by now. And multiple forms of Christianity. Would appreciate more on Eastern Orthodoxy...
    1
  835. @Jürgen And slavery, is not a sin, or a crime, according to the Bible. Nor, is some, forced, marriages - it seems. Deuteronomy 21, Judges 21, Exodus 21:7-20 - Leviticus 25:46. And meantime, 'enjoy' ghastly, despicable, 2 Samuel 24 - and it's 'wisdom', too, I suppose. And no, people do not 'know' it is a sin - they either are attracted, consensually, to someone, at a level deeper than just the physical... or they are, not.
    1
  836. And less gaps?
    1
  837. And possibly the Elders think even more differently? Well, I do feel less creeped out than by the JWs...
    1
  838. How can you use the term natural so flexibly yet fail to define it fully? Including how Biblical figures defined it?
    1
  839. And assorted bishops and feudal governments did not? Or those caught up in the blood libel on Jews?
    1
  840. So is it TIME for an UPDATED and clarified book to HELP resolve AMBIGUITIES? And CLUNKY deliveries of message?
    1
  841. And their view of possible rape?
    1
  842. So - on Numbers 5:11, what was it trying to say, on pregnancies?
    1
  843. So what did the verse mean to say? What WAS the potion?
    1
  844. And what does Corinthians 2:15 imply Also, why can Satan reach Earth at all...?
    1
  845. So who created us? And are we children, or crops? Also, most are born not being certain God exists, or at least, what type and how many. Or that disguised rebel angels do...
    1
  846. And why does the jeopardy exist in the first place? Did Eve know Satan existed, and of the stakes beyond herself and Adam?
    1
  847. Alpha, WHAT IS normative for consent?
    1
  848. And what of claims of the 'natural man' in 1 Corinthians?
    1
  849. Who started the fire though? And why could Satan reach Earth?
    1
  850. Also, isn't it a news sandwich, as well?
    1
  851. And what defines a Christian, anyway? Out of several forms of Christian?
    1
  852. There can be some behavioural changes. Still, it may not be permanent, or stable.
    1
  853. And what is the SINGLE, most fullproof and LEAST risky mentally way, for them to be converted/treated? And will all churches abide by it?
    1
  854. Who set the first examples?
    1
  855. If a person is a GENUINE Christian, can they tell us, clearly, consistently, with or without having to ask God first, WHY REBEL ANGELS were allowed to have ANY access to Earth, or to implicitly or not ALTER nature in any way, with or without the permission of Adam and Eve? Who may have had no idea such beings existed?
    1
  856. May I ask where Samuel 15:15 and Numbers 11:19 and Exodus 21:20, er, show glory though?
    1
  857. And why can that occur at all? Also, why have you not discussed Numbers 31 verse 17 yet?
    1
  858. If he doesn't endanger people to prove an obscure point?
    1
  859. Thoughts on Deuteronomy 21:14? Also, Numbers 11:19?
    1
  860. And didn't sin BEGIN in heaven? However improbably?
    1
  861. Still need to ask about sexual consent, Alpha, and where it falls on your above list to violate it.
    1
  862. Hate which specific view of god? And why did many Christians used to hate each other, depending on churches?
    1
  863. Some of those rules are IMPOSSIBLE - especially today. Would we still stone disobedient adolescents? Or woodgatherers on Sunday/Saturday (deleted whichever was erroneous) Or beat slaves, as in Exodus 21:20? Make rapists marry the victims? As for thought crime, that is hard to define. And if people suddenly worship other gods, then WHY are there beings on this world (implicitly disloyal angels?) who can pose as gods? And sometimes say less confusing ethical rules?
    1
  864. Paul Young and a few others, like Lorna Byrne, do suggest this.
    1
  865. What happens to Jews then? Will they forget the blood libel? Why are some kids today safer with gay people than with some priests, also?
    1
  866. The bible, does it say much about CONSENT, in Numbers, or Deuteronomy?
    1
  867. Also, why was Satan on this world at all, and why did he get to keep any powers? And why did any prophets or kings later get have concubines? Or bequeath slaves, ala Leviticus 25?
    1
  868. And how do you see eye to eye with possibly forced marriage or not, Alpha? (as I have asked, by roundabout way, for weeks)
    1
  869. "Critics say this is an example of the Bible’s condoning or even promoting rape. However, the passage says nothing about raping the captive women. It is wrong to assume that the captive women were to be raped. The soldiers were commanded to purify themselves and their captives (verse 19). Rape would have violated this command (see Leviticus 15:16–18). The women who were taken captive are never referred to as sexual objects. Did the captive women likely eventually marry amongst the Israelites? Yes. Is there any indication that rape or sex slavery was forced upon the women?"
    1
  870. I will need hard PROOF, of course.
    1
  871. Though it doesn't count for much I guess, if it's merely assumption or belief? The words 'I believe' are often nowhere near as assuring as 'I KNOW'...
    1
  872.  @youtubepolice1463  Why until then? And if you can, you WILL right now clarify 1 Corinthians 2:14 and 2 Chronicles 2:19, and what such people are or are not BORN as - maybe?
    1
  873.  @youtubepolice1463  Ah, okay. Sorry if I offended you? I find the whole situation a mess, frankly, and often, a web of assumptions and variations. Sorry if that's a bit off putting.
    1
  874. So he overrides Paul, I assume?
    1
  875.  Leon Kennedy  And do some have more choice on their 'sin' than others? And how much of nature can or cannot Satan corrupt, alter, or partly control? Since his mysterious arrival here?
    1
  876. And again, why is Satan OWED ANYTHING after he had proven THOROUGHLY disloyal? Per the later accounts? And yet he STILL re-enters heaven, to discuss Job; KEEPS various angelic powers after his alleged exile, and has ANY access to this world? And he seemingly offers up the OPINION that humans will not love God back without a ''choice" and asks to lure many away by surprisingly BROAD methods, according to many? After YHWH had seemingly abdicated any role of being the sole VISIBLE God/creator? And just how much of nature CAN or cannot Satan corrupt, alter, or partly control, anyway?
    1
  877. Please sort it out among yourselves? Presumably, God can TELL you which of you are real Christians? Without, ah, AMBIGUITY?
    1
  878. And can we discuss Numbers 31:17, though? And the standards there? Also, of consent?
    1
  879. So, any thoughts?
    1
  880. And the prisoners? The FEMALE prisoners, I must stress this? Also, did God permit his own speech to be attached, to some orders?
    1
  881. And do we know that homosexuals CANNOT love?
    1
  882. I must CONTINUE to ask about the prisoners. And I must CONTINUE to ask if love with such (continual) threat of force is fully love, or of forcing one to love an INVISIBLE being more than their own PARENTS...
    1
  883. YHWH CHOOSE to become invisible via the test. Humans did not choose to forget their families. If He is unhappy with that, I must also ask if He sort to become unhappy via this often unclear test? One which, I must remind you, cost a fair number of LIVES due to INFIGHTING already... and to stoning, lynching, and hanging.
    1
  884. Before we can discuss actual LOVE (and care, tenderness etc - and consent) then Numbers 31:17 MUST be contextualised. No - joke.
    1
  885. Circle - circle circle and more circle. We remain trapped within the same narrow debate, still with as little context or proof as we had at the start. Meanwhile, people have REALLY been ostracised, suffered or been singled out by their communities, whether those were 'proper Christian' ones or not, hypocrisy has bred, mothers have abused sons whilst breaking other commandments about gossiping, and this vaunted conversion therapy has STILL not managed to function without causing some psychological forms of harm. Can we soon have some MORE context, please?
    1
  886. why would they want to? May I ask HOW much of nature Satan is permitted control over? Per verses like James 3:15 and the like?
    1
  887. What's sin? Why would angels sin, for that matter, if they didn't lack for anything? You might say pride, but pride isn't usually SUICIDAL.
    1
  888. God was fine with letting angels transgress on Earth. Or one at least. Apparently, that was all it took. Despite his being able to see the future? See a Flood? Now how do we fix this Vatican abuse scandal.... priorities...
    1
  889. @Çaesar And for those that say the word used referred to pederasty, originally? Mind you, that would start to get into the issue of if it's the word God has originally used, vs how it is for much of history, understood, regarding what He intended to be handed down.
    1
  890. Based on a particularly vocal group who will be a major point of contact for many's ideas on who YHWH actually is?
    1
  891. Hmm, did Paul say that in 2 Chronicles 2:19, and 1 Corinthians 2:14, also? And for how long was it policy to do anything besides put gays to death? I am still unclear on that. Talk of curing many seems only quite recent... And how many hetero congregation members would also go abstinent for a time, in mutual support?
    1
  892. Well, names have power, usually. And a history. Associated with the moon, say, in architecture. Plus all the anciliary evidence that Israel originally wasn't monolatrist.
    1
  893. Does knowledge of good and evil? Or would it have been useful to have that FIRST?
    1
  894. To MAKE A CHOICE about being TEMPTED - is it not USEFUL to have KNOWLEDGE of good and EVIL?
    1
  895. And yet... sometimes, killing was okay? Thou shalt not murder within the tribe?
    1
  896. Rather than exiled? What kind of example does that set for kids? Is it offset sufficiently by other stuff? One was a man who gathered STICKS on Sabbath. Another is about a son who disrespects their parents (broadly defined)
    1
  897. And is God HAPPY with billions of people being deceived (since birth?) that way? What is He hoping to do about it? And what is 'strong delusion'?
    1
  898. Also, any thoughts on sexual CONSENT in Numbers 31:17?
    1
  899. The bible has omissions, though. And slavery and the curse of Ham was never formally rescinded.
    1
  900. Also, how can people hate someone they never for certain met? And are humans crops?
    1
  901. Yep, well, I cannot YET see a way to reconcile the two, so maybe God should decide who He is, first? Before any of His spokesmen imply I should shun or hate any people, including 'natural men', ala 1 Corinthians 2?
    1
  902. Numbers 31:17 - rape friendly or not, Ryan? Leviticus 25:46... slaves bequeathed, or not?
    1
  903. Sorry, I mean't bunch of square boxes guy.
    1
  904. And if it was known they would be called differently, did that affect medieval history, at all? And how Africa was viewed? Plus, curse of Ham?
    1
  905. And were Pre Flood people, Esau, Ham's kids, and Middianites, loved any the LESS? To who was that bit intended?
    1
  906. If you can BEQUEATH slaves, how does that work? Does it vary per nationality? Also, should Satan be allowed to continue? In a whole cosmos, he gets sent to world he would most want to go to?
    1
  907. I appreciate his honesty on some things, but is far from thorough on it, as yet.
    1
  908. Archons - archons, archons and Watchers...
    1
  909. It's a dicey proposition, at any rate. And varied in how it was viewed, before and after Exodus was written, circa 1000 BC.
    1
  910. And your view on rape, and prisoners, Alpha? In Hebrew society, how was it handled?
    1
  911. Why a God would EVER WANT to compete with versions of HIMSELF is totally beyond me, of course. Hasn't He got a big enough workload sowing disloyal, rebel angels, who keep powers, onto this world? Isn't that challenge enough?
    1
  912. And still BE who they are I assume. Stable, happy, mentally at ease...
    1
  913. Because gatekeeping, done long since before most of us were alive - in particular.
    1
  914. Possessiveness also tends to exclude full love...
    1
  915. Any more graven commandments on the moon, maybe? Or is there still too much turmoil among the Elohim for that to happen?
    1
  916. Possibly by surrendering some of His power to allow Satan to corrupt creation - in order to demonstrate the drawbacks of people separating - ...No sorry, I can't do it. Saying all of that was done CONSCIOUSLY by unborn people won't fly for me.
    1
  917. What choice was given to people AFTER them? Leading up to Babel, say, where everyone SPOKE THE SAME LANGUAGE and were allegedly united, but then were scattered before constructive discussions could continue?
    1
  918. Which God, though? Which is most self-revealing?
    1
  919. And why were angels flawed...
    1
  920. Gender has become a bit unclear. So has science for it.
    1
  921. Why don't we just have a HUMAN PRIDE parade? Kooky suicidal angels not invited.
    1
  922. And would God WANT parts of it to be fabricated? What things is or isn't He happy with occurring? INCLUDING Satan reaching Earth?
    1
  923. And why was hell created - if not for fallen angels, then for humans also? Why were fallen angels permitted any access to Earth?
    1
  924. If this is actually honest, I find this all very confusing, in light of what Alpha previously said...
    1
  925. Who knows? They fracture and reassess things, often.
    1
  926. And is Numbers 31:17 a normal sexual lifestyle?
    1
  927. Okay, and in Numbers 31:17, was it CONSENSUAL?
    1
  928.  10 LMS  Well, seems to me Paul may have made it murkier than it used to be, then? Please, if you do not mind, simplify his position?
    1
  929. That'll take a while. Need to figure out what Elohim REALLY means first...
    1
  930. If you go around expecting to be persecuted, it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Especially when getting forceful and making claims about human nature that others may contest...
    1
  931. This is a cheap shot, and beneath you.
    1
  932. And if there actually were, people, who removed part of their body, for religious purposes, or suppressed their sexuality? Does not eunuch, also, imply NO sex? Not that I pretend to be any kind of expert, of course. Also, what was the definition of 'effeminates' Paul used, at the time?
    1
  933. @Humanity Galatica If maybe, opinions with some questionable bases?
    1
  934. All very odd, that any talk of a 'cure' has only been around a few decades, too...
    1
  935. Well, not since the blood libel on Jews, anyway. And much of that was down more to poor supervision...
    1
  936. THEY HAPPENED. History does NOT END at Revelations, or Epistles. Christendom was FOR SOMETHING, yes? It was not just biding time until Last Days, was it? What was it trying to ACCOMPLISH? And why was it so errant or divided? or warlike?
    1
  937. So why could suicidally prideful angels also reach Earth?
    1
  938. Ah, and your view on Numbers 31:17? And sexual consent?
    1
  939. Also because there is a link to congress and law makers, at times?
    1
  940. Or will not substantiate why their book says it is so...
    1
  941. @Copyright Do you fulfil John 14:13? Yes or no. If not, how do we know, for sure, what you are? And yes, EVERYONE read Leviticus. Especially, chapter 24 to 25.
    1
  942. @Copyright Because your point is shallower than a puddle in the Kalahari, thus far. And of course, at very least, abstinent LGBTQs can be Christian.
    1
  943. I often depends on which voice shouts the loudest. Preaching is also about CONTROLLING the message, globally, too - as inaction can let the 'brand' get redefined?
    1
  944. In theology, it may even sometimes be possible to square a circle. But I think Newton sometimes opted out of some of those forms of logic...
    1
  945. He's never met him. What happened to relationship? And why can two people drastically shift it for all unborn people?
    1
  946. And who permitted that to occur? What are the RULES for fallen angels, if there will must be respected as well? And they cannot be kept on some other planet?
    1
  947. Why not just ask God? Assuming he's not got head in hands, by now? And whilst at it, inquire why Satan was owed any access...?
    1
  948. So, who is born to the receptive state or not? Do all get an equal chance?
    1
  949. Per 1 Corinthians 2:14, 2 Chonicles 2:19, and others. What is a 'natural man'? And does that make them, from BIRTH, LESS receptive to truth and spirit?
    1
  950. We aren't all the same. But we CAN recognise the similarities. Minds also adjust over time (maybe a rosicrucian view as well...)
    1
  951. No, we do not.
    1
  952. Also, it does not seem like people 'suddenly abandon' normal relations, it either happens early on or is inherited from affected hormonal balance, which again, is not wholly volitional.
    1
  953. Well, that explains everything then... but not, perhaps, Ham's children?
    1
  954. What do you man kick out? what route did he take? And what precise purpose? So most would be drowned in one era? Or many Christian peasants go to war with each other, for kings? I ask for, what is word... substantiation?
    1
  955. And how many masters does nature have? Does nature, by itself, reveal HOW many creators or influencers it has? This is an important point of potential ambiguity on what is evident, or not.
    1
  956. So what of James 3:15, and Corinthians 1? How much of nature can Satan influence, or not? Many ancient cultures who LOOKED at nature saw competing forces or gods, not one clear single one.
    1
  957. I assume there is some plan, anyway.... And if Eden was never meant to have death in it, then how was reproduction to work, long term...
    1
  958. It's pretty close. But even Rabbis disagreed..
    1
  959. When not sniping at each other, or saying Catholics are not really Christian...
    1
  960. Can you tell me if there is a properly drawn up checklist? Maybe only applies to people living in Paul's generation up to 70 AD, maybe? Lot of time for people to worry about not marrying or being given in marriage, better if you do not marry in the final days, etc?
    1
  961. Was Paul?
    1
  962. But you still don't personally hear the voice of God, like some Christians claim too...?
    1
  963. No, Orinoco.
    1
  964. And given Corinthians 2:14, do some HAVE a choice, at all?
    1
  965. Well, there's belief, in general, and whether God - as is often PRESENTED - is credible.
    1
  966. There are BILLIONS of them though. Did God INTEND various schisms to occur? And for people to UNWITTINGLY follow some?
    1
  967. Define possessive love...
    1
  968. And has Jesus discussed with you what all should do next, on the topic?
    1
  969. About what I expected to happen, yeah. You three all chat. And just maybe, remember what I said, about Jesus potentially having a convocation between all the views... just a suggestion.
    1
  970. What is source of endangerment?
    1
  971.  Oucast American  But why was any soul put into jeopardy at all? And how much of nature can, or cannot, Satan corrupt, alter, or partially control? Also, why did he have any access to this world?
    1
  972.  Oucast American  Is this any help, in clarifying things to you? Because two words, in this case, do not clarify it for me.
    1
  973. Indeterminate. I read into many tales - from many cultures. Some have supernatural claims broadly on the same level as Judaochristian claims. A lot is kept away from any public stage. The Lady of Fatima business was impressive, but still factional.
    1
  974.  Tan Tan  And so did you, erm, on how people freely make choices or not? And if the deck is stacked against some? Like in 1 Corinthians 2:14?
    1
  975.  Tan Tan  that's, NOT HOW it's always worded, in translations, though, is it? And part of my reason for wariness. OTHER versions say 'the NATURAL man will not accept the things of good - they are utter foolishness. They cannot understand then...' do you see some crucial difference in wording, there?
    1
  976.  @jacksongreythelatterdaysai916  So, did Paul think spiritual men were better than the 'natural men', and how did he define the difference...?
    1
  977.  Tan Tan  And we may even later get full context, on how much of nature Satan can, or cannot, corrupt, influence, or control, and what that actually means for freely chosen actions or desires, in such cases...?
    1
  978. And I am TRYING HERE to get a WIDER picture, including of what God WANTED with this... plan, to begin with. And how it all leads to a fully FREE choice...?
    1
  979.  @chloenieto8114  Sorry, and why was Satan trusted so much? Even after his rebellion? Why also did he keep any powers, and why could he ever access this world, after that?
    1
  980.  @chloenieto8114  And what do you mean, 'feel' is right? Learned from who? Included your own culture? And is this feeling different for 'natural men' ala 1 Corinthians 2:14, than it does for others?
    1
  981. And for forced marriage?
    1
  982. Inc in 1 Corinthians 2:14, and 2 Thessalonians 2:11?
    1
  983.  Tan Tan  And did we sort out how much of their choice is volitional or influenced by Satan or not? And if this is all according to nature being made by one hand, as Paul implies, a bit too sweepingly and presumptiously?
    1
  984. Is that the same as 'natural law', invoked by many?
    1
  985. Also - kicked unborn people out of the kingdom? / Edin (fenced enclosure)
    1
  986. Is there a single consistent community? And have these people you allude to MET God, or just a BOOK and claimants?
    1
  987. The one that couldn't stop people being stoned for talking back to parents? Seems a bit steep...
    1
  988. And who did pierce him? (or rather, arrange for him to be) And why are souls in jeopardy at all?
    1
  989. Rather strange if a mere act of translation or editing can 'conceal the truth' or 'thwart' this God's ends. Mind you, Zephaniah and 1 Corinthians 10 do not yet bode well, for long term planning, care and precision, given history of Christendom...
    1
  990. Is it possible Conservative Christians are simply defining the image of Christianity too widely, in America? That's up to God, also, I suppose...
    1
  991. If you wish to warn, Alpha, would you, once again, fill in some GAPS? To these fine folk, if nobody else?
    1
  992. The problem is that politicians like to mobilise (and weaponise) groups sometimes. That may lead to what certainly SEEM like aggressive agendas. Over and above the actual motivations of members.
    1
  993. I am sure many religious people believe in love.... Jealous, possessive love...
    1
  994. @RedTape Which version of it, then, and which edits, translations, omissions, or interpretations? Augustine, qua 1 Corinthians 10, included...
    1
  995. But it was once possible to abort some foetuses, or perhaps force a marriage? (in Romans 5:11, and 31:17?) And to bequeath slaves to your descendants? In Leviticus?
    1
  996. Also, how was sin even possible to occur within heaven?
    1
  997. And why is it wrong? And do you mean reciprocal of possessive love? And in which testament?
    1
  998. At least at times, yes (if sometimes by accident, when they care more about people than some words with gaps in...)
    1
  999. No, gavin, all I mean't was it could be complicated. Also, is celibacy involved, or not?
    1
  1000. But it is assumed he must try to?
    1
  1001. But why is it HERE? And why could it EVER form in HEAVEN, where angels did not have any sense of lack or need? Presumably? Also, your thoughts on Numbers 5:11?
    1
  1002. And what becomes of the organs and the body, afterward? Is it just a signifier, or an actual ALTERATION of the body? Say, the womb?
    1
  1003. Romans 1:20 vs James 3:15? Omissions throughout Genesis? Similarities to Sumerian myths. John 4:18 vs much of Old Testament?
    1
  1004. What of the omissions?
    1
  1005. Ask her also why Satan was owed access to this world? And why Medieval Christendom was so rarely peaceful? I have patience, but only so much.
    1
  1006. What is evil? Was Numbers 31:17, evil, Hoe Milk? What did actually, become of the captives, in it?
    1
  1007. So letting Satan reach Earth, and Eve not knowing much about him, was for a big reason?
    1
  1008. Worth a try. Mind you - as a western secularist, I have REAL trouble trusting angels, after all the weird civil war in heaven thing they go on about here. Nor do I want to leave father and mother, metaphorically or not.
    1
  1009. Why did heaven ever become unstable, though?
    1
  1010. Don't forget, fill in why any souls were put into jeopardy at all...?
    1
  1011. And I must once again ask, according to various theological views, how much of nature Satan does or does not have any influence of...
    1
  1012. Released? What was it FOR? Why was it even there, in reach? And why did Eve not know more about her role? Or who Satan even was? Or that he could reach Earth at all? And why could he reach Earth? Sin is variously defined as: rebellion, errant impulses, missing the mark one aims at, or other terms.
    1
  1013. Also, if Satan DOES have partial control over nature (and see James 3:15 also?) then it raises questions over what is or is NOT a free choice, for some people and their behaviours.
    1
  1014.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  Well, were even the CHILDREN guilty, then? Or the pregnant mothers? How about the Samuel 15:15 example? And why would God soweth his own disguised angelic/demonic rivals onto this world at all?
    1
  1015.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  Also, a choice must be an INFORMED CHOICE if it is to affect many lives to come - were Adam and Eve sufficiently informed? And a warning must be sufficiently clear cut and informed if it is to be valid, and not ambiguous, disputed, and frequently re-interpreted by churches, viz the end times, etc - has it been sufficiently informative?
    1
  1016.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  I'm pretty anti abortion, particularly late term - but it's not my choice, no one I'd hope to have to make. Women have some idea about this. I'm not going to charge in encouraging it, anyway, as a willy nilly solution, though. I'm more concerned about how many adult lives are aborted, outside our control, or in wars, and why some of them seemed religiously backed, in the past.
    1
  1017. 24/7 presentation? Really? Well, it has been a bit forceful, but so has much cultural contest stuff, these days. So was St. Paul's methods, in his day. Odd that he was himself a bit fluid in how he used the word natural...
    1
  1018. So why was heaven ever unstable?
    1
  1019. And Numbers 31:17? What resulted from that?
    1
  1020. HOW. Why did it also take hold in angels?
    1
  1021. Ah, so the reason rebel angels can reach Earth and disguise themselves at ALL, Asa, is because...? And the events in Numbers 11:19 and Samuel 15:15 are because...?
    1
  1022. And we get an idea of what is or is not abominable by verses like Numbers 11:19, Deuteronomy 20:10 and Samuel 15:15, I assume?
    1
  1023. What was the Inquisitor's lifestyle, what of that? Or of sending peasants to die for Christian wars? Vs other Christian kings? What is a 'lifestyle', anyway?
    1
  1024. But is always layers to it, isn't there? Plus what makes one happy...
    1
  1025. Why the curse again? Why send the renegade to the planet he could do the most harm, if I may ask?
    1
  1026. @Porto Fino Well, torturing Spanish Jews to make them convert, or condoning African slavery, and feudal wars, also affected quite a lot of people, too, in prior centuries? As history attests? And if you are wise, then tell me - why did Satan keep any powers, and be owed any access to Earth, post treason?
    1
  1027. Where does suicidal pride in angels come from, also? Or ignorance that it was impossible and needless to overthrow God?
    1
  1028. What did they have reason to be prideful for, if they had clear roles and fulfilment? And why was Satan in heaven long enough to sway so many? Also, do you believe there were other places to exile them to?
    1
  1029. And if this purpose involves having to drown many women and children? Also, how much of nature were they permitted alter or interfere with?
    1
  1030. And the other big question is why any other angel would listen to him, or not be swayed back by God. Especially if it really was one third of them?
    1
  1031. Why can demons reach Earth? And why are many kids now safer around some gay people than around some priests?
    1
  1032. @RedTape Who chose to conceal Himself, and use evil to attain some ends, yes, yes, I see. So, how consensual were those marriages in Numbers 31:18, again?
    1
  1033. @RedTape If they are fully visible attributes, in heaven, then what was the excuse for ANGELS to not all see or understand them? And they certainly are NOT wholly visible, here - nor can we instantly tell which bits of nature are as originally intended yet, pre Fall, or have been sabotaged, hijacked, perverted, etc. Some imaginary Pagans looking at nature, that Paul envisions, in that verse, are also not going to KNOW that bit of backstory, either. So which qualities should they look for? Any in parasitic wasps, maybe, eating alive, caterpillars, from inside out?
    1
  1034. If He did NOT want that, then WHY was Satan allowed to REACH EARTH? And did Eve KNOW this rebel existed, and of the stakes to more than her and Adam?
    1
  1035.  Tan Tan  And can the 'natural man' do so, either? if they are BORN more spiritually crippled, to begin with, or think the ideas are silly to start with? And is there a choice in being born a Jew, in say, Spain, at the wrong time? Or an African, at another? And what of Preterist views, on prophecies, or the Tyre contention? Also, were gays even OFFERED the chance of a struggle or an attempt to change, in the past, when the church was at it's political and temporal HEIGHT in Europe?
    1
  1036. @J AA And what powers did or did not Satan get to KEEP after his EXILE, J AA. That most humans, post Fall, will not know about; or not know HOW many creators nature has, by default, or who controls which bits of it?
    1
  1037.  Tan Tan  So, therefore God takes NO RESPONSIBLITY for the nature we are made by, except to demand we transcend it?
    1
  1038.  Tan Tan  yet you never explained WHY I OR ANY OTHER soul was put at risk, and to prove what point?
    1
  1039.  Tan Tan  'even if no-one else would' - might that not look a bit arrogant, to some? Can you speak for all believers here, in how they see themselves following Him?
    1
  1040.  Tan Tan  Maybe - can come across that way. And what is stopping God being with this world or us, if He wants to? I never shut him out - I was never born KNOWING of this weird deal involving impulsive acts by Eve pre-deciding things for many, or Satan being owed any access to her, at all. That does not always seem like the same kind of even-handed, free will as I hear elsewhere?
    1
  1041.  Tan Tan  Is also belief in the 'wrong god', that one may also have been raised with since near birth, also a crime or a conscious sin? Given some verses treat it as such? Would a Jew trust your claims over their parent's say? Or people who'd bad experiences with Christian priests in the past?
    1
  1042. And is rape compatible? Or anti semitism? Or sending peasants to die in wars? Did not seem an issue in medieval times?
    1
  1043. And which say clearly that Numbers 31:17 did not feature rape?
    1
  1044. And how MUCH detail of what became of them DID we have, in total, Tan Tan? I will require, some evidence I guess? first hand? As so much of their relatives had died? Also, stoning for gathering sticks, in some cases...
    1
  1045. Of course, persuasion works best when one can make a properly INFORMED decision. And perhaps, where duress is not involved.
    1
  1046. Do we have to wait until getting TO heaven (which by the way, was NOT what the earliest churches said HAPPENED to resurrected people) to find out if or WHY it was flawed?
    1
  1047. Was the Inquisition compatible also, or feudal wars, in the past? And for how long did God wish them to last?
    1
  1048. I mean, was God okay with them happening, for a while, without intention or some guidance?
    1
  1049. No idea. We try to learn from history though, and from seeing others as less hostile strangers and more potential friends. For one example, Paul and Timothy say women should never preach, Not just not preach some things, but not preach/teach AT ALL. Is this explained much? And what of if women can reach out to women, or put a new spin on how to pass on the knowledge?
    1
  1050. Also, I mean't no guidance or intervention? On behalf of the Jews, etc?
    1
  1051. On behalf of them not being persecuted and tortured within Christendom, I mean...
    1
  1052. Also, there are some things for which we don't HAVE much context. And what context was used for the Inquisition? and did God intend it to last so long?
    1
  1053. It is a prominent assumption that has spread far, due to how vocal that group is, and past examples. May I also ask what was to HAPPEN to gays in past Medieval Christendom, say?
    1
  1054. Not that they define why the feeling would EXIST, and what variations there are to it. All there is is a general rant by Paul and a few others.
    1
  1055. And what about inheriting human nature as a proclivity to become separated from heaven/Elohim? How clearly is that defined?
    1
  1056.  @nathanvarghese.  I'm sure they were just as clear cut as about slavery being verboten and really bad idea, then, these verses about/against homosexuality... Oh, wait - bad example, eh? ( : And if something did get mistranslated, that's a poor showing for Romans 13:1, perhaps.
    1
  1057. Maybe she won't fob people off with incomplete info?
    1
  1058. @Debonte Pitts And Numbers 31:17 says what, about sexual consent? Also, 1 Corinthians 2:14, says what, about any spiritually impaired state, some may be born with?
    1
  1059.  @treym.milton5120  There is NO SINGULAR version of Christianity - and SOME versions of it ARE a cult, or resemble one, The Beast...
    1
  1060. Strange, I thought Sodom and Gomorrah died for acts of rape and inhospitality, principally?
    1
  1061. @T The Beast - prove it, specifically? And what is an arsenokoitae, etc? (unclear of spelling)
    1
  1062. Pardon? Are we rewriting things again? I had said it was incomplete, but this is a bit drastic...
    1
  1063.  @fofobugs  Then explain Deuteronomy 21:11-20, and Judges 21:14, and Exodus 21:3-7? All those cover sexuality too. How useful, do you find them? And who designed, if so, homosexuality?
    1
  1064. How can you obey a law if you're not sure someone will be stoned to death for breaking Sabbath? Or if you're not sure if you can travel on Sabbath, even to flee a disaster?
    1
  1065. Yes, and what was Satan keeping any powers post exile, intended for the generation of life, anyway? Or having any earthly access, pre fruit?
    1
  1066.  @fos1451  True, but there is often major variance, and lack of consistency, in what Christians are, or describe themselves to be, on some topics, also.
    1
  1067.  @fos1451  All so much more complicated now, anyway. And it already was, with all the variations of Christianity.
    1
  1068.  @fos1451  And it did it matter when some were being put to death by others, in the past? Or offering indulgences? Or sometimes attempt to coerce conversions, out of Jews, in some unfortunate cases?
    1
  1069. Anyway, that's just a specific example. I was also thinking of how we treat minorities in general, plus the whole self definition thing. Which is a laudable area to explore.
    1
  1070.  @fos1451  Absolutely, yes. My contention has usually been that an incomplete and sometimes erratic book may not be the best way to arrive at that, though.
    1
  1071.  @fos1451  My worry ALSO is that all of those things happened, and yet YHWH was seemingly inactive in stopping them, for a fairly long time...
    1
  1072. If he does hate disobedience, might'n he START WITH HEAVEN, where disobedience BEGAN (and for still unclarified reasons?) Then maybe explain why the test involved an agent provocateur down here?
    1
  1073.  tiddlywinks  So you can distinguish if marriages in Numbers 31 were consensual and legal? And that slavery laws are uniform across Leviticus 25? And that Numbers 5:11 has no auto abort potions?
    1
  1074. @Pitts DaThird Is it also possible for Christians to be anti-Semitic, support feudal or sectarian wars, or be confused about definitions of slavery, and if it is ever justified? Yet much of that continued to occur? Plus, how were gay people to be... cured?
    1
  1075. Have you spoken to Him much? Many have a lot of questions for Him. and for Paul.
    1
  1076. Oh, yes, and it says two people can make a meaningful choice for all future humans to be separated from God, via eating a fruit - and whilst not knowing what good, or evil, even were.
    1
  1077. Also, will SOMEBODY clarify if Numbers 31:17 implied consensual, or NON consensual, sexual acts regards the captives therein?
    1
  1078.  @jongrimes2297  So did Paul make any exceptions, then for 'natural men', in 1 Corinthians 2, or any people in Romans 1?
    1
  1079.  @jongrimes2297  Don't many do that anyway, and via varying translations? Did not many medieval churches do likewise?
    1
  1080. Also, I'm not questioning YOU - I questioning the ENTIRE EDIFICE by now...
    1
  1081. God hides Himself because he won't force people to choose - but he WILL force them to be in the Test? Or for some tribes to be exposed to demons earlier than others? And He was more worried about scattering humans after Babel than teaching them collectively?
    1
  1082. Enough ambiguity has arisen, both in paleontological and textual research, to make previous source documents not entirely reliable any more. Other causes can be inferred - or just other gods, per other cultures.
    1
  1083. And just how much of nature can Satan influence or control again? And why is he on this world at all, if you could inform Hannah?
    1
  1084. If there are gaps in backstory also, will that have consequences? In confusion and schisms?
    1
  1085. Read some pesher code, please. Also, threats are not as elegant as they seem, after a while.
    1
  1086. People aren't telling me what was stable about heaven...
    1
  1087. Meditation? So your mediation is more viable than a Buddhist's, automatically? Or are they on roughly even grounds?
    1
  1088. Define the force bit, also... Maybe take it up with educators more than the people who just want a quiet life? Or politicians?
    1
  1089. And how were ANGELS created? And why did they ever think they lacked for anything? Also, what particular KNOWLEDGE were Adam and Eve created with?
    1
  1090. Oh you will, will you? The much informed expert, who never went to find out what their actual described feelings were?
    1
  1091. What is choice? How do Adam and Eve decide for people not yet born...?
    1
  1092. What sin nature? Does that not mean they had DIMINISHED free will? Plus, through no direct action of their own, they could now no longer directly perceive God/Elohim in general?
    1
  1093. But we can't SEE God, and only learn second hand about him. And that can be distorted because fallen angels had free will too? Do fallen angels have MORE free will than humans?
    1
  1094. Did not St Paul judge quite a lot of people, implictly, in 1 Corinthians 2, and 2 Chronicles 2:19?
    1
  1095. In fact, he is jealous if you love your parents MORE than him, reportedly. That can split families. And given we were not born his children, per Orinoco...
    1
  1096. Passages that discuss sexual consent, within Numbers 31 at all... ?
    1
  1097. And my question?
    1
  1098. Didn't Paul invent categories to label various other people as? Also, why was Christendom so riven with wars, for so long?
    1
  1099. @Wombat ah, and forcing women to marry those who'd SLAYED every one of their relatives, in Numbers 31 - that's not at all, a degeneracy, then? Or buying, selling and bequeathing non Hebrews (Leviticus 25) for LIFE - isn't, either?
    1
  1100. And God can be fine with showing pride Himself, apparently.
    1
  1101. Did Paul do this too broadly, when he used the term 'natural man'?
    1
  1102. So, what did Paul mean about carnal minds, and 1 Corinthians 2:14, if I may ask?
    1
  1103. See also Masonic calendar of light, I suppose - roughly the same. See also 7 BC as the more likely birth date.
    1
  1104. This includes sins that can magically alter all unborn future humans as well, and perhaps, weaken their free will?
    1
  1105. And His ability to predict things that will make Him unhappy? Unhappy enough to drown women and children?
    1
  1106. Etymology debate: The suffix “hovah” is No 1943 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary and has the meaning of “ruin, mischief.” It is another form of No 1942, ‘havvah’, which is translated “calamity, iniquity, mischief,"
    1
  1107. A hard path. Has YHWH spoken to you much, also? Or Jesus?
    1
  1108. And what has He clarified, or not? And how many kinds of Jesus are there? Across all churches? It can confuse.
    1
  1109. True, because there is more than one kind of Christian...
    1
  1110. @Jack Reacher Eh, never DID LEARN if Numbers 31:17 ENDORSED sexual immorality, myself - like forcing marriages without consent?
    1
  1111. Being unable to explain why slavery was required and women being taken into sexual servitude sounds... a bit, abominable to people.
    1
  1112. So none of us are BORN as God's children? All this due to Eve making one choice? Productive?
    1
  1113. I'm afraid the definition seems somewhat fluid to me. What knowledge was she SUPPOSED to have? And what autonomy, agency, purpose and ability to relate back? Why is this the case for us and no other animal species, which have instincts and urges? Especially if many evolved along the way?
    1
  1114. CONSENT - discuss.
    1
  1115. And is it still RELEVANT? Is it counterproductive to have it there, when people can read the Bible without the supervision of a priest or scribe? Or this stuff was apparently 'fulfilled', but it will still deter many from WANTING a relationship with a God that seems volatile...
    1
  1116. Why? Why give him that much leeway to sabotage?
    1
  1117. TWO men did. TWO. Not everyone unborn, to be laid open to invisible saboteurs. And why on THIS planet alone? Why not imprison them elsewhere?
    1
  1118. Let's hope so. I would not want it defined as jealous and possessive, or something...
    1
  1119. So there were times things that LOOKED bad, were okay, in some circumstances, though?
    1
  1120. Not possessive?
    1
  1121. Do you ever get the sense Jesus was subtly mocking Jehovah at times? See verses like Corinthians 3:12 compared to Numbers 31:17 - or Matthew 7:10 compared to Numbers 11:34?
    1
  1122. It may be because they didn't think about it much. Some might say they were cultural Christians - but that really isn't my business.
    1
  1123. The god who killed a man for dropping the Ark of the Covenant accidentally, you mean?
    1
  1124. Clarity of message is important if you're going to leave a legacy. It can't all be legends about vinegar sponges and Joseph of Arimathea...
    1
  1125. There are a number of curious oddities, yes.
    1
  1126. Do you ACTUALLY expect huge proportions of humanity to turn gay? And was any humans mean't to die, or not? Seems like no death = overpopulation, some day...
    1
  1127. Let's just say there is a habitual tendency that tends to emerge, rooted in their culture, that they cannot exactly help... I don't feel they should be held too accountable over it...
    1
  1128. But there is a tendency towards conservative thinking, a times. Not that I really blame that.
    1
  1129. Why is the evidence for, say, the Fatima miracle event, at odds with claims from other churches?
    1
  1130. Insufficient. When it is ambiguous? And when nature alone, as in Romans 1:20, does not do the job? As nature implicitly isn't fully to God's intended design either?
    1
  1131. So possibly get all the churches together and have a collaqium on it? And several other issues? Also, to possibly check with beach other's spiritual experiences?
    1
  1132. More things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio...
    1
  1133. So how small statistically must that group be? How literal to take the narrow gate? Or even preterism, for that matter?
    1
  1134. And whether we kick out our own friends and relatives you mean? What about when the word avoids clear answers to some things?
    1
  1135. Why not ask what God has said to them? And to you? And maybe do a conference? I do not think a book should be only contribution God has to a discussion... that is to do Him a disservice
    1
  1136. Siege mentalities are never far away...
    1
  1137. Why IS it worded confusingly? Or evasively? Or obtusely? And what of INACTION, during the CENTURIES that homophobia in His case WAS interpreted, along with churches deciding laws and death penalties, and other aspects?
    1
  1138.  @elicarrillo5627  And did he owe Satan access for any particular reason?
    1
  1139.  @andreasmunzer1143  Also, you ever gonna discuss Numbers 31:17, the SPARED female captives, and sexual consent?
    1
  1140.  @elicarrillo5627  Oh, and I'm not even talking about hell, here. I'm talking about if nations, GOVERNED by churches, would assume the POLICY, for centuries, was to put gays to death or not? And why would confused interpretations of the word/translation be able to persist, for that long?
    1
  1141.  @andreasmunzer1143  Also, when is slavery, in ALL it's forms, explicitly, and unambiguously, condemned, in the Bible? Also, when is sexual consent, spelled out in full context, for Numbers 31:17, and the captured virgin women mentioned there?
    1
  1142.  @elicarrillo5627  What about when churches essentially WERE part of the government, from 1200 to 1700 AD, in much of Europe, though?
    1
  1143.  @elicarrillo5627  Also, which ignorant people interpreted Leviticus 25:46 in which ignorant ways, and why did any seemingly get away with it?
    1
  1144. Will you do same? Did Paul feel everyone could live together? And why do schisms keep happening?
    1
  1145. I myself come close to hating legalistic hair splittings, who can't even prove that conversion therapy is without psychological harm, even theoretically...
    1
  1146. @Jack Reacher And which kinds of marriage in Numbers 31:17 were or were NOT consensual? And is God okay with slaughtering children, men, women, and all but the VIRGINAL women? Who would not be that likely to VOLUNTARILY remarry a captive, perhaps? And what of bequeathing, ah, 'servants', for life?
    1
  1147.  Mikey  Also, he may say some vague stuff about eunuchs, missing the context that many such were seemingly BORN with no sexual desire, rather than repressing it... or something.
    1
  1148.  Tan Tan  And if both you and he both claim to worship the same god, do you see part of the problem I have? And what did this god INTEND nature to be, or not? because when we actually LOOK closely at nature, the more things we find that APPEARED to be unnatural, per St. Paul's claims?
    1
  1149. True, but it's often an inner fight into how one SHOULD respond, or react, or interact, because so many verses are in TENSION or borderline contradiction, with each other, perhaps? Since merely shunning or avoiding the 'reprobate' 'carnal mind' or 'natural man' or whatever Paulline vague definitions are used, is no longer as easy an option for churches to, perhaps, suggest?
    1
  1150. @Pitts DaThird But bequeathing slaves/servants, and taking women who had not known men's touch forcibly, among Caananites, was authorised for Hebrews, in the past? How was consent best defined in the latter, also? (Numbers 31:17) Sexual or otherwise?
    1
  1151. @Pitts DaThird It has to do with how sexual morality is even consistently FRAMED or not, Biblically, thanks.
    1
  1152. @Pitts DaThird And how many will survive that experiment, then? And why did He care about Satan's opinions, post exile?
    1
  1153. Tell it to the Vatican priests. Work out what's wrong with THEM if they abuse. Or take it to heads of 'conversion camps'.
    1
  1154.  @blessedbythebest5517  God wanted it to Fall? And if Eve was not to know of good and evil, then what knowledge DID she need to protect a whole planet? Say, from rebel angels oddly allowed to keep any powers and disguise themselves?
    1
  1155.  @blessedbythebest5517  Need more info than that though? Does YHWH love me? Love Esau? Love Middianites, who were married into Moses' kin? Love the 'natural man'? And Ham's kids? And medieval Jews? All, equally? And why was Satan owed any access?
    1
  1156.  @blessedbythebest5517  Read which version, and which bit? And what is spiritual death? Death to all spirits, or just the 'right one'?
    1
  1157.  @blessedbythebest5517  Why that one particularly? And do you think the Baconian cipher is real? What also of exegetic processes in it? And is 'natural man' a valid translation for 1 Corinthians 2:14?
    1
  1158.  @blessedbythebest5517  Then merely focus on 1 Corinthians, then, and how you know it is the best version of the Bible?
    1
  1159. Will - ANY - of you - discuss - WHERE - demons - got - their power from - in the FIRST PLACE...
    1
  1160. Define 'lean not on your understanding'...
    1
  1161. So perhaps you'd better make sure they were taught metanoia consistently then? And not some cheap substitute?
    1
  1162. So, to clarify, Deuteronomy 20 showed totally NORMAL behaviour, by comparison?
    1
  1163. With the built in potential for major damage, all to prove an obscure point?
    1
  1164. See also parthenogenesis...
    1
  1165. Long suffering when it can be argued the suffering was somewhat SELF INFLICTED seems a bit of a mixed message, given we still don't learn why Satan HAD to come to Earth, and not be contained elsewhere...
    1
  1166. And how did heaven become unstable, at all...
    1
  1167. So, who consciously chooses any of this? And do any chose to be born a 'natural man' per Corinthians 2:14?
    1
  1168. Isn't the idea that we all, by default, DO get predestined to Hell? and then it's down to being able to emotionally or intellectually accept a complex offer that skims over some kinds of people lightly?
    1
  1169. Also, why is knowledge ever associated with sin? And if Adam and Eve had not eaten the fruit/fig, would they have ever left the Garden? Therefore, would any of us even EXIST?
    1
  1170. So, follow him to where? And why did you avoid giving me info, earlier? Some might say, continually?
    1
  1171. If Satan can WARP nature, or have any access to humans at ALL, it can SEEM like he was owed something... And if the (default?) natural man cannot trust nature, what was point of Romans 1:20?
    1
  1172. Also, what word were Spanish Inquisitors being obedient to, as they saw it?
    1
  1173. They can refuse the service if they want. I won't force them - if I were even paying attention. Legislation can get too overzealous these days as it is, especially if people feel confused or threatened.
    1
  1174. And what of Numbers 31:17? And was it consensual?
    1
  1175. Gary? Hi?
    1
  1176. Consent as to the female prisoners being potentially forced into marriages?
    1
  1177. And exiling your enemies insteada stoning them?
    1
  1178. So it's alright for the Elohim to have it, though?
    1
  1179. Just willing to leave possible electric sockets near the bathtub / enemy combatants let loose into vulnerable territory?
    1
  1180.  @3Al3ssaf  What makes Deuteronomy 21:11 and Exodus 21:3-7, acceptable? If we're going to go in deep here, let's be thorough. And consent should really come up more, too.
    1
  1181. So why did Paul spend so much time ranting on it? In broad terms? Invoking carnal and natural men? Being able to have things both ways at once is seemingly a common aspect of theology.
    1
  1182. And why does it even exist? Based on all of this, did God KNOW that 1/3 of the angels were going to rebel? And that giving them a chance to reach Earth would lead to MORE problems to make him unhappy? Or is it all part of a convoluted test? Involving multiple countries, generations of people, and slow spread of knowledge of even being in jeopardy? Or that demons run many of their religions?
    1
  1183. Okay, but often I think Christianity has a fundamental identity crisis, and is not even sure what nature or free will is, at times...
    1
  1184. Dunno: does He mistakes? Why was Satan able to reach this world, and keep many powers, too?
    1
  1185. Also, how they FEEL he must have said it, often...
    1
  1186. ringfencing again... in his case.
    1
  1187. Well, at least Cerastes has advanced a THEORY about what leads to homosexuality. Not exactly substantiated. Others just trot out the same warnings against, usually tied to the grandstanding term 'detestable'.
    1
  1188. 'Detestable' as in the label Jehovah slapped on the behaviour, as I recall.
    1
  1189. Well, we can say that now. In the past, it was not so easy. And many could never, for many centuries, say, easily see the value of JEWS in their society, depending on how they learned of them...
    1
  1190. If it's given to angels, who seemingly lacked for nothing, does that mean heaven was flawed or incomplete? When some rebelled?
    1
  1191. I seem to recall I never got an answer...
    1
  1192. God CANNOT be hurt. If He can be, then he left HIMSELF vulnerable. Foreknowledge has consequences - demonstrate that is in play.
    1
  1193. And who GAVE Satan that power?
    1
  1194. Who created the devil? At least, with the abilities and potential to do sabotage?
    1
  1195. Sometimes I fear the loudest voices end up defining the brand.
    1
  1196. Did Paul forgive all though? Or define what the Natural Man was, clearly?
    1
  1197. And was there support for Jews being persecuted, in European Christendom?
    1
  1198. And did he support Numbers 31:17? And was that consensual? Sexually? Also, what was plan for Satan reaching this world, at all?
    1
  1199. And Numbers 31:17, that WAS supported, too, right? Curious.
    1
  1200. Well, maybe are some issues with the book should be examined? Ambiguities, and all?
    1
  1201. I'd rather you added SOMETHING to what already seems to be an incomplete narrative. This is why Lorna Byrne gets an audience, incidentally.
    1
  1202. Nah. A parent doesn't put an electric socket near his kids. Nor a dangerous Tree...
    1
  1203. I could put that down to oral histories, I guess. I'm more worried about things like the Blood Libel, or the added ending to Mark. The pro-Roman side of Luke, or the numerous historical inaccuracies in the Old Testament (no camels in many of those time periods - not til later)
    1
  1204. And what of potential rape?
    1
  1205. I'd like to know context for Numbers 31:17, if possible.
    1
  1206. But why was it once okay to beat slaves, or to buy them from neighbouring countries? Also, does Deuteronomy 25:44 and Numbers 31;14 say much about consent - sexual or otherwise?
    1
  1207. And does Romans 1:20 count? As nature alone does not directly seem to prove how many gods created it?
    1
  1208. And often it's the idea of a MALEVOLENT god that can sear peoples' hearts... Or at least, appear alien, especially if unclear if we are offspring or crops to such...
    1
  1209. Pardon me SavedByGrace alvino, but can you clarify what DID become of captives in Numbers 31:17, and their sexual consent therein? That may help me find out more what YOU mean by righteousness? Plus more detail on Leviticus 25:46? No hurry, just one will do for now?
    1
  1210. As it is, a lot of the basic definition can now by quite ... unclear? And very power rooted?
    1
  1211. So it's all done by PEOPLE again? And if PEOPLE can say, altered a text, or just SAY they were told to, by a god, how would others even know? And how did it end up that bad? More curious degrees of freedom offered to angels who were disloyal, could disguise selves, and had abilities most humans had no idea of? And for much of history, had no clue they existed?
    1
  1212. Also, for how long HAVE gays not been put to death in Christendom, at all, and what changed?
    1
  1213. Do number 2 first...
    1
  1214. And 1 is about legitimacy of the claim, and what rebel angels can or cannot do to unwitting humans...
    1
  1215.  @donut2123  Do you think coerced marriages could take place, there? As Deuteronomy 20, 21, Judges 21, Exodus 21 (to some degree) and Numbers 31:18 - may give a somewhat differing view, if you do not agree...
    1
  1216. Ah, another textual failure, then? How does that happen?
    1
  1217. Yes, all seems a bit strange. And maybe without the fruit, they'd HAVE no free will, at all? I'm not sure past Rabbis would have taught it the same way it is today, either.
    1
  1218.  Bob Snider  Do you enjoy being a snobby, dismissive, uncommunicative bully? And what is Sheol too - remind me of that.
    1
  1219.  @christiansnaturestudio6599  Which version? Also, when certain pogroms, wars, schisms, and an Inquisition, was going on, exactly WHICH fingers got lifted, in the slightest? Bearing in mind I also HAVE read Numbers 15, and there's very little excuse for non intervention, after that...
    1
  1220. @Jack Reacher And forced marriages and bequeathing servants, for life, is NOT, though, contradictory to it?
    1
  1221. Or do we continue with approximations in Corinthians 2:14?
    1
  1222. Well said. Any thoughts on Corinthians 2:14 though?
    1
  1223. Do I respect the behaviour of the Magdalene Laundries, either...?
    1
  1224. Again, is it CONSCIOUS? God must be MORE than a book, or a lurking annunaki in a cloud...
    1
  1225. The potential was seeded for it somehow. How come angels suddenly had it? Were they unfulfilled?
    1
  1226. Like any reference to Numbers 31:17?
    1
  1227. Well, usually, but it can be VERY hit and miss, at times.
    1
  1228. @Nomit - but could the word also be COMPLETE as well, perhaps, with fewer omissions, ambiguities and perceived omissions? Also, what is a 'natural man' ala 1 Corinthians 2:14, and are they potentially BORN more spiritually incapacitated than others, and in being able to understand both the message of salvation, and of the initial jeopardy (and the why of it) ? Also, how did any confusion on the Curse of Ham and Leviticus 25:46 arise, or persist?
    1
  1229.  @phoenix1985  True, and partly why I'm sadly so skeptical of the whole thing, by now. Priorities, you see. Does not seem that hard to reunify the whole thing, and just how much intervention crosses the line into violating 'free will'? That Adam and Eve and Satan may have already violated, long ago? And the curse of Ham's kids, etc?
    1
  1230. And the medical bills?
    1
  1231. Extinction isn't actually LIKELY. Statistically, only a small portion of people display homosexual behaviour - on the total population scale.
    1
  1232. Why is it that free will is touted as the explanation for everything? Can we also define duress? Or informed consent to a process?
    1
  1233.  @gemb7986  Well said, I guess, but tell me - what WERE medieval churches SUPPOSED to do or not, when they governed much of Europe in the past? Were they mean't to make MAJOR costly errors, or not? Or be unsure about anti Semitism, or slavery, or sectarian wars? And given they were the ones decided what got translated and read...?
    1
  1234.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  Tis called sarcasm, I believe?
    1
  1235.  @gemb7986  And easily mutated, unprotected, and already INCOMPLETE book does not easily appeal to me, anyway, thanks. Maybe you'd better ask Lorna Byrne instead? And she writes books, too. And Paul M. Young and others. If the main avenue falls short, others will fill the gaps, potentially - it's a market situation, when it comes to yearning and questions.
    1
  1236.  @gemb7986  And then there's William Blake reading the bible black not white, hidden meanings, Gematria, allegorical stories, Samuel Fale's Dunlop, and Pesher Code, Thiering and other takes on it - where is it to end? And why should the exoterica end up so potentially deadly when applied during monarchical and other politicised eras?
    1
  1237.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  Also, follow which God, which soteriology, and which priests? Where is the key of knowledge to make it easier for them? Or at least, why their souls were jeopardised to begin with? And is Satan trusted with anything POST exile, or not; concerning souls; prosecuting, testing, witnessing, etc - and if so, why?
    1
  1238.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  He could be a little more tactful, overall, I guess. I think much of it is about fear, also, more than hate - or a desire to 'save'. Which cannot be done without an adequate vocabulary or definition of the jeopardy, why it happened, what is or isn't natural, and what is or isn't chosen. Things naturally often quite confusingly presented, among Christendon and theology.
    1
  1239.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  true, but not for why such might become catastrophically errant, unless the process was not well guided? And I'm not just talking by human hand here, either.
    1
  1240. And just HOW MUCH of nature CAN Satan alter or influence, anyway... And if so, why was he permitted to?
    1
  1241. And how did that lead to the persecution of non-Christians, at times? Did God want that?
    1
  1242. And why could Satan reach Earth? And was Eve aware he existed?
    1
  1243. Same for you too, I guess?
    1
  1244. So what else did you discuss, Kamelhaj?
    1
  1245. And why did it exist in heaven?
    1
  1246. but angels presumably had TOTAL knowledge of God (leaving aside the claims made in Enoch) And if they did not have that knowledge, why did they lack it? So if they were totally fulfilled and had no sense of lack in heaven, where would any desire to rebel come from? Or any ignorance that it was possible to defeat God?
    1
  1247. @Porto Fino Which - God - is it - evidence of? And how many? And who controls what bits of nature? And my conscience tells me to revile Leviticus 25:46, for instance.
    1
  1248. @Porto Fino And Leviticus 25:46, and Numbers 31:17 (seems to imply sexual misdeeds, too, perhaps, upon the captives) and Joshua, these are not examples of doing wrong?
    1
  1249. He can PRESENT self, first, please, and clarify several gaps...?
    1
  1250. And is that because Satan was OWED ANY Access to humans, Tragedy 01?
    1
  1251. Down to where? Why was hell near here, and why did he pass this world? Why did he retain any powers? And why were any angels and himself ignorant that his goal was logically impossible? What form of connection to YHWH did they have? And why could he get BACK into heaven, in Book of Job, also?
    1
  1252. And how does this work for other religions? How many could he, with all those handy powers of his, get to potentially set up or hijack, that none would know of? For many born into them?
    1
  1253. @Jack Reacher And what of compelled or forced marriage? And which wording of 1 Corinthians 2:14 should we trust?
    1
  1254. And God was fully clear on this? Does He also fill in gaps?
    1
  1255. Urges? Who had the URGE to allow Satan ANYWHERE near this world? Or to allow Canaanite female captives to be maybe raped?
    1
  1256. I CHOOSE to ask what did occur to captives in Numbers 31:17,. though...
    1
  1257. Also, how many of these beings can DISGUISE selves, as beings of light?
    1
  1258. Have you read it, or not? And by 'beings' I mean disloyal, rebel angels.
    1
  1259. And for whether to answer my question Zorrak? (you would be AMAZED how many never do)
    1
  1260. And why would angels DESIRE to do so, if they could NEVER win a revolt? Are they not born with strong link to/awareness of God?
    1
  1261. I'm used to arguing. It helps me learn about different views (and where uniformity that's claimed often DOES not exist...)
    1
  1262. And also on interpretation of 1 Corinthians 3:13, and Romans 10:9 to 10:17? Plus, John 4:8 to 4:20...?
    1
  1263. I know, but one can be more insidious and subtle in it's dogma... And people can at least SEE people thrown off roofs in Dubai for being gay. Such is hard to hide.
    1
  1264. And how did he hold Adam and Eve accountable? Or inform them of the stakes and the powers they did have, before being tested?
    1
  1265. I guess I'm still waiting to hear what IS normal. Is it normal for two humans to suddenly transfer the deed of ownership for the planet to Satan, and have all their descendants also be party to the contract? Or admit that parts of nature (parasites) are aberrational, but use nature as one of the 'clear signs' of divine intent?
    1
  1266. Kind of the thing now, isn't it? We can't turn back the clock, and allegories do not necessarily communicate the same meaning they once did. Letter kills the spirit and all that...
    1
  1267. What does? When does it come back together? Is this another result of Matthew 21:43?
    1
  1268. If we let the Bible interpreted itself, we'd have never learned about the Yahwist and Priestly sources. The two Genesis's, the way the text mirrored Sumerian myth. The two pillars and the priestly tradition behind it...
    1
  1269. Many people died - for many centuries - in the rectifying of these 'flaws'.
    1
  1270. The eyeball has been more or less sorted out by assorted models. Look at the separate components, including the membrane.
    1
  1271. Agnostic. Sway me either way?
    1
  1272. Maybe. I'd rather she had some idea of what that MEANT though, and to more than her and Adam's lives alone, frankly. Or that they had any enemies at all....
    1
  1273. Did He love them enough to say more beyond 'not one JOT or tittle will pass from the law', though? Or aid course correction, in Paul's time, or long after?
    1
  1274. To care usually means being able to give informed opinions - inc about whether it's possessive love...
    1
  1275. Was it unguarded?
    1
  1276. And did God wish these translations be tricky?
    1
  1277. What reasons was there for God caring about Satan's opinion? That he be allowed to tempt people? Arguably by 'counterfeit' religions?
    1
  1278. See how the child feels, afterward. Or maybe, that guy stoned to death in Numbers 15. Wonder what affect it has on the stoners as well, to be party to that, looking back in their state of rest...
    1
  1279. And did Paul love all? What is a 'natural man' ala 1 Corinthians?
    1
  1280. It depends, does it not? Sermon on Mount may look very wise to him. Whereas... Leviticus 25:46., and Numbers 31:17, may at times look like dangerous/murderous,... crap. And Romans 1:20 may look to have serious gaps in it's logic...
    1
  1281. And given that even spiritual beings can become (somehow) ignorant, suicidally prideful and delusional, and rebel en mass, in heaven, how is that also a guarantee?
    1
  1282. That is big part of problem. Simplest way may be... to ask God directly?
    1
  1283. Ah, somebody must. Answers still seem to vary, though.
    1
  1284. Does not help if it has gaps in it, too...
    1
  1285.  Tan Tan  It ALWAYS GET USED against SOMEBODY, Tan Tan. History SHOWED us that. And about my earlier comments?
    1
  1286. You see, my parents, and my friends, and even the 'natural men' - I can always SEE them, and discuss things two way. And they do not accuse me, for doubt, or asking supposedly 'irrelevant' questions, like on why any souls would be put at risk, to begin with - or why a 'cure' for gay people would be introduced, only so belatedly, after many were likely put to death... So I still have a fair number of loose ends to resolve, sorry. And is there a choice in being born a Jew, in say, Spain, at the wrong time? Or an African, at another? And what of Preterist views, on prophecies, or the Tyre contention? Also, were gays even OFFERED the chance of a struggle or an attempt to change, in the past, when the church was at it's political and temporal HEIGHT in Europe?
    1
  1287.  Tan Tan  At times, Tan Tan, I'm not sure it was TAUGHT at all - so much as HAMMERED into people, with no nuance or depth, or real understanding. And how do ANGELS have a way of flesh, to follow, anyway? Or even CONCEIVE of unspiritual behaviour, in heaven?
    1
  1288.  @phoenix1985  And I appreciate what you're trying to do, but we really, really, do not KNOW what this God wanted to make or not, at this point, or which bits of nature He takes credit for or not. Just ask St. Paul - the flipflopper, on that definition?
    1
  1289.  Tan Tan  And also, why make flesh at all? If it was going to get in the way of the role of spirit?
    1
  1290.  @phoenix1985  So, James 3:15, and 1 Corinthians 2:14 imply what precisely ABOUT nature...?
    1
  1291.  @phoenix1985  And what is the labour pains nature is struggling in? What's the glass darkly? And why have we found various... behaviours, elsewhere in nature?
    1
  1292.  Tan Tan  Look up King James, and NIV, and various other versions, and then note the DIFFERENT word usages in each? And then remind me if I can be SURE they all say the same thing? I present James 3:15 for one example.
    1
  1293.  Tan Tan  And how does a Hindu, Sikh, or Jew, or others, have 'chosen' Satan? Who they cannot see? And would not know might pose as other gods?
    1
  1294.  Tan Tan  Again, my issue is that sometimes the verses say 'natural man' and other times simply 'man without the spirit', and that this all, in TAMDEM with Romans 1:20, paints a CONFUSED view of how NATURAL processes are supposed to work, and who controls which of them, at a time...
    1
  1295. And where does Numbers 5:11 fit on discussion of it?
    1
  1296. So the women wasn't pregnant? What did occur?
    1
  1297. Also, messages should be clear, yes? Not have loose ends like if Satan was allowed here to give us a choice or not, still disputed to this day?
    1
  1298. And did some obscure verses have a slowing down affect on emancipation/abolition movement?
    1
  1299. Is Numbers 5:11 somehow less equal?
    1
  1300. I would say that about the Curse of Ham, too...
    1
  1301. And does rape, BMore?
    1
  1302. If angels could lack for something, or have unclear purpose, how was heaven perfect?
    1
  1303. And the fact that it was IMPOSSIBLE to be God, and that was something many angels would likely have know, didn't factor in? I just find it odd that not only didn't the angels have free will, but apparently, the very MOMENT many of them are given it, not only Samael, but one THIRD of the rest of them, revolt?
    1
  1304. There's pride, and there's suicide. And Numbers has a fair number of verses that do seem a little... proudish.
    1
  1305. It says so clearly, no ambiguity or gaps, or room for misunderstanding? I would like to see which copy you have. Also, any apology notes for last thousand years?
    1
  1306. Why did we need an old one? And I gave up on it early one when I learned how censored it all was. Plus, why was Satan owed anything at all? And was last few centuries all a bit whoopsy?
    1
  1307. Also, were people in 1 Corinthians 2:14 blessed too?
    1
  1308. So any thoughts on what I asked about, Yahshua's quotation?
    1
  1309. Also, which words were extant in medieval times, and did they seek to avert or curtail assorted sufferings, conflicts, misunderstandings, or prolongation of assorted things like anti-Semitism, and slavery?
    1
  1310. Huh? Why would God ALLOW that, then? Or not intervene, guide, or add details? And why was Satan owed anything?
    1
  1311. And many did not even get given a choice to READ it in their OWN native LANGUAGE, whilst others decided how it would be translated. As well as which king to back in going to, say, war. Wars fought by peasants all ostensibly asked to follow the same God.
    1
  1312. And is Numbers 31:17 about rape, or not? Even implicit?
    1
  1313. Science comes from the Latin word for KNOWLEDGE originally. So it wasn't quite the same definition then.
    1
  1314. Did it, ah, reveal why fallen angels could reach this world at all?
    1
  1315. Are a number of them still funding 'conversion therapy'? Because... well, it does not seem to have been a resounding success, at least without potential trauma. I thought metanoia was supposed to adequately substitute for this?
    1
  1316. What happens if the boyfriend is mean't to be infallible and all-knowing...?
    1
  1317. Anything to do with duress? Confusion? more than a boogie-man style curse?
    1
  1318. Until you can show if angels were ever INTENDED to be ignorant or suicidally prideful, I am not sure how much credence I can give, Rumbidzayi Danduri
    1
  1319. Or which prrima dona rogue angel can or cannot meddle with nature...
    1
  1320. Velma? Hi?
    1
  1321. Even picking up sticks on Sabbath?
    1
  1322. Yes, no matter what some shady angels /spirits drop on us thirdhand.
    1
  1323. Existence. Right, okay. Self consistency though? Competence, though?
    1
  1324. @Jack Reacher So, was slavery OKAY in some contexts, to be determined only by YHWH, and for some periods? Yet there was not an outright ban against it, after Jesus came?
    1
  1325. @Jack Reacher And was that context, very, VERY badly handled for more than 800 years, in the past? And how much was simply too broadly worded?
    1
  1326. @Jack Reacher Also, context on 1 Corinthians 2:14? Should the word NATURAL MAN be in that verse, per translations, or not?
    1
  1327. Alternate to what? A heaven that was already broken?
    1
  1328.  @soph4702  Then what were angels created to be, and how did any of THEM devolve, or become ignorant, gullible, capable of dissatisfaction, and suicidal pride? All in a realm where the invisible qualities of God were wholly visible, no less, and even more fully understood. And did women in Numbers 31:17 leave their parents, to become one flesh? No - they were TORN from them, involuntarily, and compelled, to marry. Curious.
    1
  1329. So, did Mark get the SAME CHOICE that you got, Tan Tan? I still cannot conclude, from this.
    1
  1330. Also, which passages discuss consent of women, and of captive ones? That needs clearing up, to be fully sure.
    1
  1331. I am only asking for clarification, Mostly from Tan Tan, anyway.
    1
  1332. Also, people would at least like to know whether they are defined as crops or property, rather than offspring, of god.
    1
  1333. And what does Numbers 5:11 say...?
    1
  1334. And are disguised rebel angels given free will too? And ability to pose as beings of light?
    1
  1335. Which purpose? And why go to the trouble of spreading the Word if it will get mixed up, and few churches will count? And how does this inform the WORLD that they are in jeopardy - competently and consistently? And is this an experiment? Are we children, or crops?
    1
  1336. So, if they do both exist... what then? What if both are playing a good cop, bad cop, game, @i am tea of life?
    1
  1337. And does He believe in them? Or in revealing why two people were given sole choice to separate humanity from God?
    1
  1338. WHY - does he EXIST? Why was he sent to affect EARTH? What did YHWH need to KNOW that he did not ALREADY know?
    1
  1339. COMMUNICATES! Ah, so that's why there are 400 denominational variations, and why people are looking into Enoch and Jubilees again to fill gaps in the efficient, singular mode of communication that is a re-retranslated book of books?
    1
  1340. Better than they historically were, since Medieval times or before, no less...?
    1
  1341. @Hawks Fan Hard to do, if it can also be interpreted so variably, and has some omissions, also...?
    1
  1342. Let fallen angels loose and the consequences can be unpredictable... or not, if you're the head deity.
    1
  1343. Even as a abstinent one? Also, I repeat, how did YHWH see rape, in Numbers 31? I am still not clear.
    1
  1344. This includes detailed information on why their souls were placed in a situation of jeopardy in the first place?
    1
  1345. Heavenly? Sorry, freudian slip? I mainly think it's because of how the voices that shout loudest may end up defining the brand, sometimes? However inadvertently?
    1
  1346. We will, if Paul of Tarsus will. And give a single consistent definition of 'natural' that he will not shift?
    1
  1347. And did Paul always do the same? Plus, was Ham's kids, Job's kids, pre Flood people, Esau, and others, loved the same? way
    1
  1348.  @camisuarez3076  Were they loved to the same degree that it is SAID of later people, that God loved them, all equally? And with inherited curses, in the mix?
    1
  1349. Well, partly that's politicians work, but also an attempt to show their real side and put people at ease.... at least initially. It may have exceeding the initial remit. People are becoming more tribal all the time these days. Many of them are no doubt much less social justice 'warrior' about it.
    1
  1350. I just wanna ask why you got to speak to Him and why Mark O'Shiro did not, Tan Tan? And how much of nature DID Satan get to control or influence, or not?
    1
  1351. And I am still not sure you know WHAT precise form of eunuch was prevalent at the time?
    1
  1352.  Tan Tan  Neither did Torquemada need to act his desires to forcibly convert Jews, but why did he think that was the ONLY valid option, why did nobody stop him, and why did he retain any persuasive authority? People used to think persuasive authority, charisma, even authority itself, was gifts of God or the Spirit, or at least signs of His blessing. So when is any to be gainsayed or retracted?
    1
  1353.  Tan Tan  He tortured Jews, and the other was a Pope who allegedly blessed a massacre. But the issue is that they often THOUGHT they were doing what was needed, or at least, Torquemada, maybe, to 'save' people. Based on INTERPRETATION. And many believed them, or assumed God had granted them their authority - as well as letting them keep it?
    1
  1354. So, plural like Elohim used to be...?
    1
  1355. See epigenetics - a not well understood area.
    1
  1356. What, sheol, or purgatory, or Sidpa Bardo, you mean? Talking of middle ground, which bits did Satan cross, why was he soweth here, and why could he get back inside of heaven, during the Book of Job?
    1
  1357. Could be harder.
    1
  1358. And WHAT IS natural? In both earth, and heaven? Thoughts on James 3:15?
    1
  1359.  @dawnthenightlight9095  Still a bit selective. And how consensual were those marriages, in Numbers 31:17? Also, when is infanti-cide, ever valid, be it in Joshua 7, Numbers 16:27, Hosea 9:12, or 1 Samuel 15:3, or 2 Samuel 15:18? And why would He allow so many, changes, to occur - and long before that one, too, like the word 'typoi' in 1 Corinthians 10...
    1
  1360. At least that's a - somewhat - fair point. But they did used to be persecuted or harmed, so some middle ground is needed somewhere. Some parametres of gay relationships resulted from having to be furtive and secretive, also, hence, their issues with stability and monogamy, sometimes.
    1
  1361. TWO PEOPLE GOT THE CHOICE. Just TWO. And did they KNOW they would be affecting the nature of ALL of their descendants? Who would also face disguised rebel angels, it is often claimed?
    1
  1362. And can we expect greater detail than you have given so far? Or ask Plato and Origen?
    1
  1363. And was all people loved equally, or positioned in equal levels of free will and access to salvation? Including those in 1 Corinthians 2:14, and 2 Chronicles 2:19?
    1
  1364. God created dissatisfied angels?
    1
  1365. If they knew their purpose, and were fulfilled, then WHAT did they have to be dissatisfied, or prideful, ABOUT? Did they at LEAST have info that showed revolt was FUTILE? If it were five or six, I might not wonder so much. But ONE THIRD? Sounds allegorical...
    1
  1366. Concerning Discernment, which church can be said to be most closely following the aim of the Spirit? Which denomination?
    1
  1367.  Oucast American  When is murder a wrong murder? Even the Old Testament was HIGHLY variable on this, and many Rabbis treat it as applying to only Hebrews, ironclad-wise, at that historical time... Also, from what neighbouring lands could you buy 'slaves', as vaguely defined as they were, for a thousand plus years, afterward?
    1
  1368. Also, some expansion of possible textual omissions?
    1
  1369. But how many kinds of Christianity are there?
    1
  1370.  @baileyharvel3450  and why did so many churches not know this? And what did Paul mean by 'effeminates'?
    1
  1371.  @sheraprincessoflesbians3037  Obviously, some in Medieval Spain were not always so, say, to Jews?
    1
  1372.  Lady Mary  Sorry, I misread your position.
    1
  1373.  @keylahjooste6543  Also, why would Satan be trusted more than Earth's own Stewards?
    1
  1374.  @keylahjooste6543  Yet he keeps various powers, post exile, and had free, unimpeded access, to this world? And could re-enter heaven, to be in God's direct presence, later, in the story of Job? What am I missing here? All whilst Eve and Adam were not trusted with some fairly basic bits of knowledge?
    1
  1375. Well, it's not the full solution, I guess. Some Christians will still want to do conversion therapy, and then argue over why it isn't always effective. Others will want them to be celibate, but practice little celibacy themselves, in support.
    1
  1376. Insufficiently. And I HAVE READ the Bible. It does HAVE omissions. At very least, obfustications. Now, would God, ever make Himself, unhappy?
    1
  1377.  @leenamae4519  So, would you say you loved Esau, Ham's kids, Middianites, Gideonites and pre Flood people, equally, then? And is there such a thing as an Elect?
    1
  1378.  Tan Tan  By the way, regarding Isaiah 45:7...?
    1
  1379. I don't know: Does He ever make Himself unhappy?
    1
  1380. Is He CONSISTENT and COMPETENT? And does He make Himself UNHAPPY?
    1
  1381. So, was Esau loved? Or Ham and his kids? Or pre Flood people? Also, Middianites when caring for Moses?
    1
  1382. So, what kind of ineffable plan, Avatar? To drown many humans because demons were owed to keep many powers of disguise?
    1
  1383. How could it be wrong if they had idea what good or evil was, at time? Did they not need that info, to do their job, as Stewards of this world?
    1
  1384. Anthony? Hi?
    1
  1385. Paul didn't seem to think everyone was automatically lovable/pitiable, despite preaching it among his own community. Then Timothy and the women thing, I guess...
    1
  1386.  @melvint-p9500  Shame. Should have said more on that, or on banning slavery, than wasting two or three that could have been combined into one, about YHWH's err, personal securities?
    1
  1387. And what does that mean? And why would angels sin? Plus, where does inherited curses fit?
    1
  1388. Although it also has Paul lecturing on reprobates and carnal minds - but his logic is a bit unsteady, on some things.
    1
  1389. Ever heard of a mystery school?
    1
  1390.  @MC_MMV  Yes, that was by design, wasn't it? Adam knowing nothing about good, evil, death or the wider stakes, in Eden, for example, yet 'choosing' for all of us. And why is ANY form of torture or bloodshed, needed to forgive people, again? Given Adam seemed intended to fail, also. And if to sin means, to err, then was the mark missed, in how heaven, was initially designed? Given that too, was seemingly flawed, divided, etc?
    1
  1391. Or carnally minded, 'natural men', reprobates, Middianites, (at a time) or Esau...?
    1
  1392. But what is the 'natural man' then, in Corinthians 2?
    1
  1393. That verse doesn't have anything to do with sexuality though. It's about a predisposition. Also, did the Babel curse make it harder of easier, for disguised rebel angels to deceive scattered tribes...?
    1
  1394. Also, didn't sin BEGIN in heaven? How is that even probable...
    1
  1395. Alright. Sorry about that. So how does he love?
    1
  1396. What? So did He love Middianites, and their ancestors, less? Or pre Flood people? And Esau? And medieval Jews? Were they loved less? Considering what happened to latter? And was the curse on Ham's kids ever formally liftted? And would ANY of this have happened if Satan could NOT set foot upon Earth?
    1
  1397. And when does the scripture transition to moral perfection? Some time after Numbers 31 and Samuel 15:15?
    1
  1398. So, concerning this relationship, can you all say what He is THINKING, or wants, right now? Or, if you prefer, just sometime today or tomorrow?
    1
  1399. And how much control over nature is or isn't Satan permitted to have, if I may seek to clarify? Via Eve, God, or anyone else?
    1
  1400. So he GOT PERMISSION then, presumably, to reach Earth? And what of setting up false religions? Or of the aspect of Possession? Also, giving Adam and Eve free will seems unclear to how it gives all later humans free will, and if Adam and Eve were aware they could affect those future generations, and their level of awareness, and of choosing.
    1
  1401. Also, I don't suppose the idea that how Satan was portrayed altered toward the tail end of the Old Testament will be countenanced...?
    1
  1402. Sounds complicated. Would you be celibate?
    1
  1403. No, not really - just getting various views.
    1
  1404. Relevancy implies clarity of communication, and uniformity of agreement between evangelizers...
    1
  1405. And he could DO THIS AT ALL, because of why, Alpha? Why could he keep assorted powers from heaven? And why could he get back into heaven, in Book of Job?
    1
  1406. And what is corrupted nature? Why did any nature corrupt in heaven, with no flesh? Also, how much of nature can Satan clandestinely corrupt? How many masters does nature have? And were gay people even asked this, a few centuries ago?
    1
  1407. So.... God was OKAY with it being rewritten? And... this makes Matthew 25:27 less bad?
    1
  1408. Protect it? Not have gaps in it in first place, also? Romans 1:20 and Corinthians 2:14 need serious work, too...
    1
  1409. Because it was flabby and had seeds of arrogance and error in it? Maybe? Tribalism will tell, at times...
    1
  1410. Didn't St Paul hate some people?
    1
  1411. So, er, were fallen angels a mistake? And why they were able to reach Earth? Also, how much of nature was Satan permitted to control?
    1
  1412. Why does the jeopardy exist? Doesn't letting fallen angels get to this world already create a cliff, since Adam and Eve were born lacking knowledge?
    1
  1413. So, in comparison, was Numbers 31:17 implying totally NORMAL sexual morality? How much detail of it, do we have?
    1
  1414. Also, in medieval times, how many true Christians were there? Especially in high positions? And what was to become of Jews?
    1
  1415. Why is the Bible incomplete, and has omissions? And where on the spectrum does Numbers 31:14 and 11:19 fall, for what is normative?
    1
  1416. Where does it say WHY demons/fallen angels were permitted to set foot upon Earth? And what knowledge Adam and Eve did or did not have? Including whether they could have children, whether they could affect the nature of their descendants, and whether they could hand over control of the world to a saboteur angel?
    1
  1417. And which ones can be voluntarily changed more easily?
    1
  1418. Voluntarily shifting one's choice of desire or attraction for someone. See also metanoia.
    1
  1419.  @phoenix1985  I do recall the arsenokoitai bit, myself (though not always how to spell it) But didn't St Paul also rail against 'effeminate' people, too?
    1
  1420. @Jack Reacher And what of pederasty? How do we know when that's mentioned or not?
    1
  1421.  @phoenix1985  It's hard to reject facts if things are NOT ALWAYS clear as day, and many churches disagree on interpretations, is it? And I don't think Paul drew that same example, either?
    1
  1422.  @jacksongreythelatterdaysai916  The curse of Ham, whatever Eve passed on to other people, business with the Gideonites, the events of Matthew 27:25 and others...
    1
  1423. Also, as I see it, it was still TWO people who did not want to be controlled, in Eden, somehow spiralling into people not being sure God, or at least, which one, even EXISTED (despite what Paul somewhat ingenuously argues, at times, on this topic, in Romans and 1 Corinthians)
    1
  1424. So, did Adam KNOW he could alter all human will, or give partial control of this world to another being?
    1
  1425. Also, how did they know God did NOT want them to be like Him? Why send a serpent to them at all? And why was Satan OED that contact? Also, when WOULD they get to have, knowledge of good and evil? Fairly crucial thing for a Steward to have, no?
    1
  1426. Okay, and who saw those other dead rise in Jerusalem? When temple broke?
    1
  1427. Also, to who is the ransom paid? To YHWH, Satan, or all Elohim?
    1
  1428. They are genuine, but I grow impatient with evasions I often get online...
    1
  1429. Also a source of COMPETENCE? Somehow, angels rebelled. Did they not KNOW that the goal was futile? Were they discontent? Did they get a headstart creating the Babel context, or it's precedents?
    1
  1430. Controversy has to mean SOMETHING, right? When even well meaning people end up confused or in conflict, from similar backgrounds? Is scripture to smooth it over, or leave some things vague?
    1
  1431. And who GAVE him that much free rein, just to experiment with the idea of giving free will?
    1
  1432. And still miffed that he said 'These things and GREATER will you do', and none took him up on it?
    1
  1433. I know, but I don't like dilettantes and no shows.
    1
  1434. And WHICH God? And how viewed? And are we children, or crops? Offspring, or clay?
    1
  1435. Also, why would ANY angels have disbelief at all, given that, UNLIKE humans they had no DOUBT or ignorance of God from birth? And no time to develop it? (recorded, anyway)
    1
  1436. But there is much disagreement on who He is? And many denominations, now? Could this be fixed, shortly?
    1
  1437. It would help. Brand recognition can get VERY blurred by now...
    1
  1438. So, how did that work out for you, and also, do you converse, with God, much? Ah, two-way, I mean?
    1
  1439.  @kanskedetnej6276  Which means many, will unfortunately, say, you 'do not count' as one, yes. Still, the rest is your own affair, and I wish you all the best. But it often seems God is a very VAGUE and BROAD topic, to me.
    1
  1440. Were not many of them also PUT TO DEATH during much of history, including much of the dominant era of Christendom?
    1
  1441.    Now now. We all know the ONLY emoji going there is the Emoji Movie...
    1
  1442. Love involves trust. And acknowledgement that opinions are going to differ sometimes. Gaslighting won't help.
    1
  1443. Does the same apply to angels? And is Paul or James more correct (not that James says many detailed things) about carnal and natural men?
    1
  1444. And he made angels to be content with their lot. But somehow that did not work always...?
    1
  1445. Sounds valid. Does that mean finding more direct connections, rather than leaving it all to be mediated by a book?
    1
  1446. Well, I know YOU depend on it rather a lot. Have you heard a specific voice, yet? Many say they do... And I won't demand to be saved until I learn why people are ENDANGERED...
    1
  1447. @Pitts DaThird Hates WHICH visible or presented God, though? And do they not show AFFECTION, tenderness and care for each other, and others? Or are you going off a certain select experience of them? And who corrupted them? Which parts of nature, and human nature, and sexual nature, can or cannot Satan corrupt, or partly alter, post Fall?
    1
  1448. @Pitts DaThird Dunno, go and ASK real people, first, not stereotypes. And what does 'spiritually dead' mean, also? have ALL your churches AGREED on that, yet?
    1
  1449. @Pitts DaThird Also, how was love fully displayed to Esau, to Ham's kids, to Job's REPLACEABLE kids, and to captive women constrained to marry in Numbers 31:17?
    1
  1450. @Pitts DaThird KJV, NIV, Red Letter - and SO many denominations. Also, how many soteriologies and Christologies? You can do the research yourself. And I SEE people online frequently call each other 'not true Christian' say they are under 'strong delusion' or cannot discern the truth because they are 'natural men', and so forth. Unite churches first, maybe? And when is one to hate what is evil? Or shun the 'natural man' or not? Presumably you are to hate the WHAT, but not the who? But if people come to think your OWN totalist dogmatism can appear evil, what next?
    1
  1451. @Pitts DaThird And I don't care what the Bible defines exclusively on this - the church EXISTS to convey the wishes and intent of God, surely? So how it is VIEWED may still MATTER to us poor disconnected and supposedly spiritually 'dead' mortals, too. That we be INFORMED, and our children. And why were were ever in jeopardy to need salvation. If a disunited front is presented, or you cannot agree on what being 'spiritually dead' even is, then how is the church to succeed? Or grow? Or remain numerous?
    1
  1452. @Pitts DaThird Wrong. Do a wider survey first on how people see purpose and hope. And you are not have never been the ONLY game in town, in global curlture. And if YHWH wanted to make Himself unhappy, that might be his own lookout? Why was Satan owed any access to here?
    1
  1453. @Pitts DaThird Now, how WAS love displayed to Ham's kids, Job's kids, and Esau? Or to medieval Jews in Christendom, later?
    1
  1454. But it's hard to completely escape it, after categories Paul introduced for labelling.
    1
  1455. Just before the Flood, and elsewhere.
    1
  1456. Ah, read it? Genesis 6:6 (CEBA) The LORD regretted making human beings on the earth, and
    1
  1457. The day you can say there is one single all encompassing definition of what a Christian is mean't to be, and the authenticity of their experiences, spiritual experiences and beliefs, perhaps that is the day a good deal MORE pressing issues are, ah, settled?
    1
  1458. It couldn't get much MORE complicated than it already appears to be... jeopardy and all.
    1
  1459. Yes, and I'll take it over clunky Paulline legalism and equivocation anyday.
    1
  1460. Given it's likely not NATURAL for angels to become suicidally prideful or lack for anything they'd need, what basis are we working from?
    1
  1461.  10 LMS  Also, what does arsenokoi exactly translate to? And what is a natural man?
    1
  1462. And is there a bad translation on Numbers 31:17, also?
    1
  1463. I am not against Christians, however many types there are. I am against dogma that can border on the totalitarian, and still have GAPS about why. And had seemingly led to infighting and deaths, on a wide scale, in the past. And true, it was likely not intentional that this occur, but it still happened... somehow.
    1
  1464. And is rape righteous ever, or not? I must know.
    1
  1465.  @phoenix1985  They don't WANT TO, but cognitive dissonance and fear will likely soon set in. Now, HOW MUCH of nature CAN or CANNOT Satan control or corrupt, or influence, post Fall - and does that include any of SEXUAL nature? If churches could just all agree on THAT, and come to a CLEAR conclusion on it, you might then actually GET somewhere...
    1
  1466.  @phoenix1985  Also 'not one jot or tittle will pass from the Law' was said by WHICH New Testament figure?
    1
  1467.  @phoenix1985  then what does James 3:15 imply? And what makes human nature UNIQUELY exempt from this, per 1 Corinthians 2?
    1
  1468.  @phoenix1985  Good and evil is survival behaviour, ultimately. Just projected to the scale of the tribe, the species, and our passed on value system and what we hope will endure.
    1
  1469.  @phoenix1985  And I am tacitly REFERRING to 1 Corinthians 2:14, and whatever Paul very VAGUELY means by 'natural' in that verse.
    1
  1470.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  And the next step then, is to get all Christians to agree on that, in all churches? Or it may not count.
    1
  1471.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  Presumably not without direct divine intervention, at this point, though? Across all though denominations, etc?
    1
  1472.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  There's no inherent problems to those things, and many of the theories do need for ironing out and detailing. Also, you don't have to get churches to agree on anything - but if God wants actual unity and clarity, then HE might have to.
    1
  1473. Begging your pardon Jon, but what about what it does NOT teach? Including why rebel angels would be allowed any access to earth at all? If Adam and Eve had any idea such beings existed? Or that the two of them could alter all of nature and their children with one act? Or why things like a blood libel upon medieval Jews would ever occur in Christendom?
    1
  1474. Would any congregationists also practice abstainence in support of the? Even temporarily?
    1
  1475. And you do not? Also, did we clarify if ambiguous rape ever comes up in Old Testament?
    1
  1476. Mystic Crusader, hello?
    1
  1477. So why would any angels want to?
    1
  1478. Well, it does already have gaps...
    1
  1479. Who judges for what happened at the Magdalene Laundries? Or the Inquisition? Of what action or INACTION?
    1
  1480. But why? Why give Adam and Eve that choice without much knowledge to make it? And why did an Inquisition even manage to occur? Or last any length of time?
    1
  1481. Of course, it would be nice to know why it exists. Or why angels have unnatural inclinations too...
    1
  1482. Why the desire exists. Whether this discussed sexual one, or the desires angels would have to rebel, if they lacked for nothing...
    1
  1483. So - what was all that talk about a third of stars in heaven falling, swept by the Dragon's tale? More optional symbology, or lost key of knowledge? It would still leave the question of HOW they were swayed, whether they were ALLOWED to be swayed, and so on.
    1
  1484. How close is the relationship if questions can't be asked back? And only by the adopted...
    1
  1485. And what more WILL be said? Including on why Satan can reach Earth at all? And have Lorna Byrne and Paul M. Young and others already expanded?
    1
  1486.  Tan Tan  Then who created us? And why let imperfection spread from heaven, to THIS world? Especially if it might be fatal?
    1
  1487.  Tan Tan  So, is it supposed to be worded 'the NATURAL man is without the understanding' or 'the man without the SPIRIT is without the understanding', in 1 Corinthians 2:14?
    1
  1488. Were ANGELS intended to be disloyal and then REACH THIS WORLD at all, also?
    1
  1489. So they say. Personally, I find the argument beginning to flag quite a bit. And St. Paul didn't half go on about how some would never get God's spirit, and were basically born that way...
    1
  1490. Okay, and if you will Holly Harrison, will it SOON be revealed how inherited curses fit into free will, and why Satan got to keep any powers, or reach this world at all, and how Eve could make meaningful, species wide decisions? Given her major lack of requisite knowledge?
    1
  1491. In my view, a book that LACKS much clarity on such major topics WILL inevitably lead to divisiveness, confusion, sectarianism and confusion...
    1
  1492. So PROVIDE truth. ALL OF IT. No gaps.] What parts of nature CAN Satan control or not, Brian? And from that, what is or is not a choice?
    1
  1493. And why was Satan owed anything, Brian? Any access to humans, at all? With powers he somehow retained?
    1
  1494. So, you gonna 'cure them, Lovely Guy? Foolproofedly? No mess or mistakes?
    1
  1495. Compare to Deuteronomy 20:10...
    1
  1496. If built on rotten foundations...
    1
  1497. @Mars It's prove, not proof, you complacent little schmuck. Now go and read Deuteronomy 21.
    1
  1498. @Mars For how sexuality and consent, is handled, within it. Ditto, for Exodus 21:1 to 7, too.
    1
  1499. Who knows? They will not even tell me why Satan was owed anything...
    1
  1500. He KNEW that one THIRD of the angels SUICIDALLY wanted to rebel, for spontaneous,. unclear reasons, and that if they COULD gain access to Earth, they would do MAJOR harm?
    1
  1501. By permitting fallen angels to disguise themselves, what other forms of corruption would - inevitably - occur?
    1
  1502. So, where is the key of knowledge? And why can not many Christian people currently do 'these things and greater than I' now?
    1
  1503. So does God 'dislike' religions, or not? Are they only a necessary compromise to more direct interaction? Know ye not that ye are... etc?
    1
  1504. Prove it, initially, @modded 2020? And why such a solution is only NOW being posited, after much confusion, persecution, and deaths?
    1
  1505. @Andreas Münzer If he IS a bit delusional about this, I suppose it MAY not count, as hate speech, so much as a warped opinion? Still, you are the moderator.
    1
  1506. How do people tell which variety is the most genuine? Will there be more open healing, for instance? There have been MANY schisms...
    1
  1507.    And I'm sure God has SOME conception in mind for why Catholics came to exist? Or East Orthodoxists, Mormons, and many more? Or inquisitions?
    1
  1508. And why would any angels have a defective nature, in heaven?
    1
  1509. Perversion - a place of supposed total perfection and harmony (heaven?) suddenly has disharmony within it, due to suddenly ambitious angels who start winning over other ones. Dichotomy - a set of seemingly contradictory initial premises.
    1
  1510. CONSENT does tend to be important. Remind me what Deuteronomy 20:10 said about it? Oh... wait.
    1
  1511. There are still PLENTY of nice ones, it's true, but often that's when they DO NOT have to focus over much on the dogma or rationalisations, and just get on with trying to meet and help people, or talk to them...
    1
  1512. Well, there was also other elements was there not? About essential human brokenness, that some spun as unworthiness and claims of innate depravity? There was always an antidote, of course, but it may have helped to justify some quite sad cases in colonial periods...
    1
  1513. Do you know? How directly they were sent? And your view on Numbers 31:17, and Leviticus 25:46?
    1
  1514.  @fito2537  Hey, your God can CHOOSE who goes or not to hell. And WE DO not choose, if the warnings are INEPT. And people either WANT to go into the Pit, or are CAST in. There is no middle ground. God does that or does not.
    1
  1515. @Stanley Well, they may still want to - but they have to then also explain WHY it 'isn't natural' and how it even occurs - let alone if it's volitional, etc.
    1
  1516. Mistakes? Why can angels rebel? Why would they WANT to? Why then get exiled to a vulnerable planet? Why does a Elohim then repent of creating humans, after things got so bad they needed a deluge?
    1
  1517.  @MC_MMV  By bullying people? By evading other moral comparisons, too, and avoiding the issue of coerced marriages, perhaps? People would like some comparison - otherwise, an act seems only moral if a God demands it, not for a higher end.
    1
  1518. Is often more than one KIND of God, anyway, as typically defined...
    1
  1519. Vs gods - plural - creating (grammar of word Elohim)
    1
  1520. Pardon? What has that to do with Numbers 31:17, say? And what of those who did not get a message from god, and still got shunned or abused by their mother, and church? Also, did we fail because Adam and Eve were NOT PREPARED for the role they were given to DO?
    1
  1521. There are gaps within the narrative, however...
    1
  1522. Okay, but can He still be asked questions?
    1
  1523. True. Still, tales of Mark O'shiro and others are alarming, though...
    1
  1524. Well, you would not, I guess. Just some guy who was shunned at his church, prayed to be changed of his sexuality, and got no answer back...
    1
  1525. Talking of MISTAKES... about that civil war...
    1
  1526. Like the story is being vague? More lambs as a gift for Yahweh then... poor Cain.
    1
  1527. So you accept that the Jews of medieval Europe are owed an APOLOGY maybe? And the various women who lived under abusive and unsafe laws? And all those peasants sent to war with each other? And yes, MOST of us are men and women, but even elsewhere in nature, this is not the full repetoire of sexuality. If you disagree, then tell me HOW much of nature was Satan permitted to control?
    1
  1528. And can you DEFINE them better? Including about how much nature has been altered or not?
    1
  1529. Also, thoughts on how consent is treated in Numbers 31:17?
    1
  1530. And what becomes of the women, at then end?
    1
  1531. It's the AMBIGUITY that can also be rough. Given elsewhere, we also hear of them all being killed, in other conflicts...
    1
  1532. (hint, it's NOT about the Flood)
    1
  1533.  @sleeppyy3221  Shame keeping that definition clear cut, across many later churches, wasn't as high a priority, then, as helping modern preachers find their keys, maybe? Lives might have been saved, otherwise.
    1
  1534. @Oompa Loompa They have to know He exists and WHICH ONE in order to CONSCIOUSLY hate him though, don't they? And why was Esau hated, exactly? What of Ham's children? Were they hated or not? Or cursed? And how about medieval Jews? hated, or neglected?
    1
  1535.  @elisabethfanfan9560  I suppose the issue is if He loves you and then openly back. But until that's EXPLICITLY soughted out for ALL churches, maybe leave me out of it?
    1
  1536. I am trying, I suppose, to grasp all of this, but it seems like it wasn't even a major PRIORITY to sort out, or not, if they'd even be spared, or put to death, or not, until recently. Nor do Paul, Peter and James ever say much on the idea of Christians ever GOVERNING much of the world openly, prior to the latter days; let alone a near empire.
    1
  1537.  Go to jwdotorg  Can you support forced marriages, though, or bequeathing servants/slaves? In principle? Or any omission on such?
    1
  1538.  Go to jwdotorg  It's about consent, and sexual consent, arguably, too though?
    1
  1539. And no ascended saints, then? ? And what ORDER does this occur in? What of bodily resurrection?
    1
  1540. Also, which words are to be translated which way...
    1
  1541. I do not mind some long-windedness, but can be just bullet points, yes. And does not all need to be in Biblical text... Also, putting it into modern speech may let logic (Or not?) be seen clearer?
    1
  1542. @Jack Reacher Even in Numbers 5:11? Be sure?
    1
  1543. Yes, that's kind of key point here. Seems to scare... various people.
    1
  1544. Something more about the Fall than 'because of free will'?
    1
  1545. Also, depends if it's a jealous, possessive love, too, maybe.
    1
  1546. @RedTape So, how do you feel about coerced marriages of captives, by the way? Or owning, or bequeathing people, to your relatives - for life? Also, how does YHWH feel about, err, infan-ti-cide... given some historic verses, of some major import....? And why was heaven ever unstable, to begin with, again?
    1
  1547.  @justdoubled7841  He's the one who chose it to be big consequences. Why the f*** is Satan OWED anything, again? Any access to this world? Answer my questions, from earlier, blast you. Scroll back up the comments above yours. RedTape couldn't do it, now he's deleted.
    1
  1548.  @justdoubled7841  I've heard it all before, pal - and fell WHAT ROUTE, how far, and keeping WHAT powers, and why. And there is an ENTIRE UNIVERSE, with many, many, many worlds out there, many empty, too, likely, to exile him to - so, why, this one? And telling Adam, nothing, about it either. And if He'll burn or torment some for eternity, as many say, why would He mind what a FEW angels, think.
    1
  1549.  @justdoubled7841  Yes he does, dammit - he poses as 'a being of light' (2 Corinthians 11) and many Christians say he can pose as other gods, like happened to Canaanites and others, say. Can we discuss this on the GLOBAL scale, not of the sole interactions with ONE chosen people or later dispensations? And what of the 'natural men' of 1 Corinthians 2:14, either...
    1
  1550. No, but likewise, many Christians are far from clearly unified, anyway.
    1
  1551. What is the precise blasphemy? And how is this spiritually discerned?
    1
  1552. And what has this to do with gay people? And what the 'natural mean' in Corinthians 2:14 is?
    1
  1553. Some do. Some LITERALLY claim whole groups of people are spawn of rebel angels. Go figure.
    1
  1554. And why did they leave some significant gaps?
    1
  1555. It's a confusing, and changeable time. Overcompensation can still, feasibly, happen.
    1
  1556. Well, it can happen, sometimes, with possible slants like on the Anthropic principle, and of non-special conditions, perhaps?
    1
  1557. @Porto Fino What does it say about bequeathing and owning people for life? Or forcibly taken unmarried women?
    1
  1558.  Cardinal Confessor  More outright terrified of them at times, I think. And they sure are a bit blaze on the concept of permanent bequeathing of slaves to relatives, ala Leviticus 25.
    1
  1559. Against what, sorry? Also, is there one form of Christianity, at present, or several? Also, did Paul think nature was a good thing, OR a bad thing, in Romans 1:20 or Corinthians 2:14?
    1
  1560. And God never corrected them? It couldn't also possibly have to do with any verses having any ambiguity? Also, how do churches become Reformed and Renewed?
    1
  1561. And I've seen some who claim to follow the word, unbiased. They take a comment Jesus made to his innermost followers of following him in his body, where he says 'any who wishes to follow me must hate must father' and apply it to CHILDREN of people who are seen as deviant, and use it to cajole cooperation of the parents...
    1
  1562. No, it's really not. If James 3:15 defines it one way, along with Corinthians 2:14 (natural man) but then Romans 1:20 defines it a very DIFFERENT way, what happens then?
    1
  1563. And to what degree is God willing or unwilling to subtly intervene to put denominations back on track? How many generations into people being born into them?
    1
  1564. And yet some details may still be ambiguous, or skim over some key context? Including about choice, and how much of nature Satan can control?
    1
  1565. No, we need to know NOW, Joe Hinojosa. And so do many evangelicals, in order to actually DO their job properly. And regarding out of context bit, Hollow, why are they getting anyone to listen to them? Or play up a particular focus on homosexuality, when Jesus did not single it out much? Is a degree of echo chamber applying?
    1
  1566. Also, why say 'hate' when another word might serve communication more clearly? Did they not have 'shun'?
    1
  1567. Who can say? If one is jealous and feels unborn people made a conscious choice to reject him (as some strawmen claims say) it's hard to predict...
    1
  1568.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  Deeper meanings priests lost the Key of Knowledge to? Why? And with more and more translations made? And God did not preserve the meanings for them, in partnership? How did ANY of that lead to anti Semitism, torture, feudal and sectarian wars, even WORSE definitions of slavery than the potential loopholes Leviticus 25:46 left with it's sketchy 'bequeath' and 'other countries' segments, and confusion on the Curse of Ham? And is physical resurrection or Rapture implied in Revelations? Also, what is 'wise fire' per 1 Corinthians 3:13?
    1
  1569. Sorry, WHY was Satan granted any access to his world, at all, and to humans? And to retain many powers? And what becomes of Jews? Also, those born into other religions? And why did so many angels think Satan's impossible goal was... possible? At all? Were any delusional? Suicidal?
    1
  1570. Does this apply to discussions of curses and free will also?
    1
  1571.  @DiamondWorldYoutube  Tell me, is Exodus 21:3 to 7, also morally possible? How about, Deuteronomy 21:11-20? Those two, are 'sex laws', I recall.
    1
  1572. What about omissions in the book, though?
    1
  1573. And God LETS him do that? So much for free will...
    1
  1574.  @andreasmunzer1143  And was there a problem with letting any ambiguity on slavery continue, among churches, into the 1800s, AD?
    1
  1575.  @andreasmunzer1143  Yeah, but tell it to African ancestors, too, from circa 1200 to 1700 AD?
    1
  1576.  @andreasmunzer1143  Was that intentional, or not? That any would be shipped abroad, in changes, any verses be used in defence of that?
    1
  1577. Or because they can't always explain WHY it exists at all, and what is or isn't a 'choice'...
    1
  1578. @Debonte Pitts It's relevant on what was enforced consistently or not, I suppose - or ideas clearly conveyed. Certainly, many medieval churches and polities, for a long time, did NOT seem to get the memo.
    1
  1579. Sure, there MAY be LGBT affirming verses, but are they worth DOODLY SQUAT if their basic SAFETY was NEVER a major priority, in terms of clarity, context, informative info, or guidelines? All whilst various loopholey statements like 'not one JOT or tittle will pass from the law'?
    1
  1580. What's A FAMILY? What's my UNDERSTANDING of that? Visible, for a start...
    1
  1581. Congeratulations, although I do observe there is various claims to what Christianity is?
    1
  1582. And yet things don't always go off in a uniform way, within nature? Also, wasn't nature already sabotaged, according to many Christians?
    1
  1583.  @phoenix1985  It's never that simple. Jesus didn't say anything against OR for it, and left OTHER PEOPLE to define it afterward. So did He WANT them to define it that way, like St. Paul, or not? And what of 'not one jot or tittle will pass from the Law'? Also, why is the Old Testament clearer that God hates mixed FABRICS than that He hates ANY form of slavery? Or inherited curses?
    1
  1584.  @phoenix1985  until churches argue over that. Neither slave or free? But why then did slavery PERSIST so long, with apologetics based on scripture, for it? And all it takes is enough vague categories Paul implies, for many to be exempt, as 'carnal', or 'reprobate' or 'natural men'...?
    1
  1585.    My 'simple logic' tells me Satan only got the powers to harm that he was allowed to keep any way, upon exile - so why is that? And what part of nature, human nature or sexual nature, can or cannot he alter, or corrupt, or not?
    1
  1586. So, does it actually make people THINK, or just blindly trust? I would like to hope so, but modern theology often seems a bit more... knee jerk? And what reading order should it be read in? Plus, any gaps?
    1
  1587. Supposedly for protection of their souls that they think have been cast into a hostile, traplike world?
    1
  1588. Also, which denomination DOES follow guidance of Spirit most correctly?
    1
  1589. A denomination is what churches have. That has been case across Europe for centuries - with many born into them. Was that... to plan?
    1
  1590. Explain METANOIA for me, please...
    1
  1591. It's still 7 years off, and Nazareth may not have existed at the time. I will await further response as to my question.
    1
  1592.  @andreasmunzer1143  But Satan killing Job's family sometimes okay, yes?
    1
  1593.  @andreasmunzer1143  So, what is the purpose? How many humans are to survive all of this? And what is or is not Satan trusted, or authorized, to do? And could you explain it on a level sufficient to say, kids?
    1
  1594. @shortboi - sorry, saviour from WHAT or WHO, again, and why was any soul put at risk? And biologically and psychologically, what IS or ISN'T an unimpaired choice?
    1
  1595.  @shortboi128  IF somebody will not delete this comment, I hope - I would say that when can people make an unimpaired choice, regarding sexuality - does it vary for those seemingly BORN gay - and how much or not, of nature, can OR cannot Satan warp, alter or partly control, post Fall? And secondly, why was ANY soul put at risk of jeopardy, to begin with - and has it anything to do with Satan being owed ANY access to this world?
    1
  1596. He seems schizoid in the head, per some verses...
    1
  1597. Maybe. and did he tell you anything NEW? Like why fallen angels were permitted ANY access to Earth at all? Or Eve and Adam to make such MAJOR decisions for others, with so little knowledge?
    1
  1598. Well, I can appreciate that somewhat. But hypnotism, enthrallment and hypnagogic experiences have all existed, so I tend to base things on the exchange of INFORMATION and relations of trust, rather than JUST the feelings. Sometimes I wish I did not, but it seems to be the surest way. Given all the VERY VARIED messages people have claimed to receive, or be sent by spirits, some endorsing racial beliefs of hierarchic races, cross-breeds, or claiming the world is flat. I do believe it has not always been this... divisional, though.
    1
  1599.  10 LMS  And why is ANY deceived? Why would ANY angel believe Satan could ever WIN? And why would ANY be allowed to retain any angelic powers, or access Eden, or this world, at all, afterward?
    1
  1600.  10 LMS  No problem. I'm not in a hurry, anyway. And Baba seems on top of things?
    1
  1601. So, why not TALK to people? And what was Lady of Fatima event mean't to establish? To how many churches? And if some kids do ask why Satan was owed anything, what will be said to them?
    1
  1602. Wyatt, - also, this could OCCUR at all? For how long? Why allow it? Many are now BORN into Catholicism... what happens to them? In past eras, how would they come to doubt it, especially in sectarian conflicts? And what is your view on Jews, and Matthew 27:25?
    1
  1603. Facts - you have never explicitly stated you have heard the interior word of God yourself. Only received impressions as to text standing out to you. A bit of a low blow, I am afraid, but it seems relevant to mention it.
    1
  1604. Does He? And where does Corinthians 2:14 fit? And what IS nature?
    1
  1605. So did He WANT so many to be drowned in a flood, knowing far in advance this would occur if Satan reached Eden? Also, that a blood libel on Jews would happen, too? Sans minor possible interventions to alleviate?
    1
  1606. And what of what Bible does NOT say, sherly?
    1
  1607. How do ANY OF YOU know their immune system was stronger? And if they DIDN'T leave the garden, would you, I or Horseman exist?
    1
  1608. So, we can overide Paul and Timothy and others, on much of this, hopefully...
    1
  1609. And will YHWH lift a finger to aid, this time? Or will he get provoked by Satan venturing another opinion on humans from a being he supposedly was thoroughly betrayed by?
    1
  1610. So why did Paul start speaking of categories of the Natural Man? Or of carnal thinkers?
    1
  1611. For being asexual? I did not know many asked much about that.
    1
  1612. Do you have proof? And do you mean the God of the Sermon on the Mount, or the one of Samuel 15:15, Numbers 31:17, Leviticus 25:46, and others? And what of all this 'natural man' business, ala 1 Corinthians 2:14? Were some BORN that way, and therefore, born spiritually impaired? From the outset?
    1
  1613. And why did the Jeopardy, also, ever initially, come, to be? Why was Satan owed such passage?
    1
  1614. So, without some MAJOR explication, such that it might reach, oh, perhaps MILLIONS of new people, and actually DEEPEN understanding, is there also, a lot of point, in continuing?
    1
  1615. So why could it occur in heaven at all? And your thoughts on Numbers 5:11 to 31?
    1
  1616. But why were you in jeopardy? Why could Satan REACH Earth?
    1
  1617. Also, were pre Flood people, Ham's kids, and medieval Jews loved less?
    1
  1618. It's a large, and complicat£d topic. Basically our coordinat£s and math£matical valu£s for what cam 'b£for£' it, run out at that point. May not also b£ fully lin£ar...
    1
  1619. Reciprocal love or POSSESSIVE love? Do I really need this? My Sister just lost her cat...
    1
  1620.  @phoenix1985  Hmm, so not Paul or Peter or James, then? But who will convince various churches of that?
    1
  1621.  @phoenix1985  So, how will people become free? Free enough to know the true account and relationship?
    1
  1622.  @phoenix1985  But people thought those very men were empowered to speak FOR God. And who's this Jehovah chap? part of the Elohim council?
    1
  1623.  @phoenix1985  Yes, but you know what a snowball effect is, right? And is God okay with so many misapprehensions? People look to Paul as a biblical authority. And how much of that book to be taken as authoritative and literal?
    1
  1624.  @phoenix1985  But again, many, many people think the Bible IS the word and official communication of God. How do they learn otherwise? Read Neale donald walsch or something?
    1
  1625. How do you know? Do they have reason to? Are some pre-labelled as reprobates, carnal, or natural minds?
    1
  1626. Do you not know that your story still has holes in it?
    1
  1627.  @murdoch1717  So, do you believe, also, in marriage, as constituted in Numbers 31:17? And do we have sufficient detail, on that example?
    1
  1628. Well, it is one take, on such, yeah.
    1
  1629. Will you support rape, ever, Alpha? I am still confused on that...
    1
  1630. And when time came to maybe spread message to whole world, it was then time to confuse all of them?
    1
  1631. And were they? What is a reprobate, also? Or a 'natural man', ala 1 Corinthians?
    1
  1632. Yes, we all know - we all inherently deserve death. It's a default position, right? Except for ambiguous wording of those chosen from before birth, or who the world hated?
    1
  1633. Why can we not get an IMPROVED Bible then, with less OMISSIONS? And I INCLUDE in the backstory to the Fall for this...
    1
  1634. So was wearing mixed fabrics, cooking goats in their mother's milk (somewhat understandable, but he liked burnt flesh too) and he kept crippled people out of temple assemblies for centuries. It would be nice to get more comparisons, see if His ways DO change...
    1
  1635. Even for Ham's kids? And ancestors of Middianites?
    1
  1636.  @mattgessner9  And can they? Can 'natural men' (1 Corinthians 2:14) also control their feelings, perception, and even spiritual nature? Are ALL actually born equally able to? Equally capable, of what God supposedly wants?
    1
  1637.  @mattgessner9  True, true - but also, which theory, do you allude to, for the above?
    1
  1638. And what of Leviticus 25:46? And was Numbers 31:17 consensual?
    1
  1639. So - Numbers 31:17 - consensual to captives, or not?
    1
  1640. And for people BORN into 'other religions' - is it fully free will for them?
    1
  1641. So do you believe in humans, or in pre born, pre chosen people, and carnal minds, plus, the 'natural man', Alpha? For context?
    1
  1642. Odd, I thought hormones and cortisol had at least some role in it?
    1
  1643.  @emiliomilian369  Perhaps it's new metaphysical knowledge some are claiming by now? Couldn't say...
    1
  1644.  @potatopotatobuy239  Proof? And where do inherited curses fit in with choosing?
    1
  1645. What even IS a community? When is it right to put some to death, curse children down generations, or spare Aaron but not other calf worshippers? Or refuse to let people travel or Sabbath, even if catastrophe looms? (hate to get legalistic, but some seem to root things in that)
    1
  1646. And yet it does tend to only peak in small amounts, globally? Compared to hetero expression?
    1
  1647. Homosexuality, I guess? I am not an expert. Was just saying it's unlikely to wipe out hetero behaviour, is it.
    1
  1648. Yes at very least because it is so nebulously (Conveniently so?) defined.
    1
  1649. If you say so, @John . Chris 1:2 - what was the big delay over making very sure Leviticus 25 was totally, unambiguously defunct, by 400 AD? Or that Matthew 27:25, was clarified.
    1
  1650. And what is the nature described in James 3:15?
    1
  1651. As there is NOT one single version of Christianity so far, it clearly IS possible, today. And is it wholly a volitional CHOICE, or has their nature been affected beforehand? By Eve, Satan or otherwise?
    1
  1652. Also, I am not sure, via 1 Corinthians 2:14, if Paul even uses the word 'natural' in a singular consistent way? Is what is natural a trustworthy thing, or not?
    1
  1653.  Tan Tan  You've seen SOMEBODY, yeah, but I wanna know what the word 'Elohim' actually grammatically and originally MEANS. And many claim to see visions of various beings already, including more than one Jesus, I gather? I also want any such discussions to start filling in gaps on doctrines and the general context that ALL humans (natural or otherwise, thanks Paul, the hack of Tarsus) are in, if possible.
    1
  1654. And why was any such choosing done FOR US without our consent, before most of us were even born, or conceived of?
    1
  1655. Because of old idea that the male = active force, and the female = receptive capacity, perhaps?
    1
  1656. So why were fallen angels permitted to set foot upon Earth, and did two ignorant humans in a garden know if such beings existed?
    1
  1657. Also, will this plan be better than the... fascinating methodology shown in Exodus 20 and 21:20?
    1
  1658. Authority must be based on something STABLE though, Rod. Not somewhere where even many believers doubt the Old Testament is fully accurate...
    1
  1659. For the other matter, do people report the same, fully consistent God? An unpopular question, perhaps, but one that needs to be asked...
    1
  1660. @Pitts DaThird SOME versions of God, yes, potentially. The basic idea that all could have a CREATOR in a higher dimensional manifold, I've never really discredited, outright. But why THIS ONE, and this model? And flying in the face of what is USUALLY said about carbon dating, geological layers, fossils, sea levels, and how long humans have REALLY been around for? And look up Gobekli Tepe. Even Jericho. People were thought to live there TEN THOUSAND years ago, almost.
    1
  1661.  @terria.mccurdy9190  Isaiah 45:7, also? And Amos 3:6? Also, per St. Paul, is nature a good, or a bad thing? And is being a 'natural' man, a good, or a bad, thing?
    1
  1662.  @terria.mccurdy9190  Natural man is allowed what, now? Why do they think the ways of god are utter foolishness, if nature is supposedly fully reliable, per Romans 1:20? Also, flat earth or not, and if so - PROVE it. What physical laws support a flat surface, and non diffuse firmament, that does not blow away? And which model makes it EASIER for Satan to just randomly invade here, after leaving heaven, with so many powers mysteriously still allocated to him?
    1
  1663. It's not a perfect sphere, and is actually slightly compressed (due to angular momentum in orbital rotation)
    1
  1664. Any facts about how much control of nature Satan is permitted to have?
    1
  1665.  @Katarzynaaaaaaaaa  It's harder to do with fanatics, obviously...
    1
  1666. Well, even I think the Anaias thing was a metaphor, and that he and his wife did not REALLY drop dead (see Pesher code) Some pigs did die though.
    1
  1667.  @andreasmunzer1143  Sure, you just clarify Numbers 31:17, and sexual CONSENT for me, as well, will you? Also, what parts of nature have or have not been altered, corrupted, or partly controlled by Satan, since his Fall, and by extension, what things are, or are not, freely chosen, or experienced, naturally...?
    1
  1668. Also, why does he expect loyalty from people who can't see Him, and having established that Heaven was not a fully stable realm?
    1
  1669. It is odd. But I feel same way over those captives in Numbers 31:17, to be honest. Whatever DID happen to them?
    1
  1670. But which one would make suicidal rebel angels? Or divide between 'natural man' and 'spiritual man'?
    1
  1671. And can we properly define what NATURE is as well? The version in Romans 1:20 which leaves doubters without excuse, or the source of the Natural man in Corinthians 2:14? What of James 3:15?
    1
  1672. Compare your spiritual experiences, perhaps?
    1
  1673. If a mean take certain women prisoner, they can just be married off? Numbers 31:17?
    1
  1674. Also, what is or isn't a qualifier for abominable behaviour?
    1
  1675. Do you? What of omissions?
    1
  1676. I assume nothing much from Numbers is admissible any more...
    1
  1677. Ah, in believe so as to fix what, and why?
    1
  1678. Sorry, I mean't, what is Jesus seeking to fix, and why would it go wrong in first place? Also, by extension, why could Satan reach THIS world?
    1
  1679. Why? Why would God want him to? And where can exiling be to? And how did Jesus live a 'life of sin'?
    1
  1680. Also, why would a disloyal angel be allowed to KEEP assorted powers?
    1
  1681. Fair enough, but I have asked many already, and I do not understand why God would not just say so, to you...?
    1
  1682. Also, my understanding is that there only could BE any 'damned' at all, BECAUSE Satan could trick two humans, who did not, ah, HAVE knowledge of good and evil, yet?
    1
  1683. I find... omissions, that is...
    1
  1684. Does Paul Young's claims suggest otherwise? Would we KNOW about God without nature? Which is in this world? Or is 'the world' about ego and culture?
    1
  1685. See Romans 1:20 vs Corinthians 2:14...
    1
  1686. And what of Discernment? Which churches have, ah, got it right?
    1
  1687. And is rape an abomination, Alpha?
    1
  1688. Ah, the horns of dilemma, indeed. And I don't think 1 Corinthians 2:14 helped much with it...
    1
  1689.  @lillisrealm6110  What's normal? Are all humans to a blueprint, or what?
    1
  1690.  @jacksongreythelatterdaysai916  Oh, a joke... I see.
    1
  1691. Numbers 31:18 REALLY needs to be contextualized regarding this, soon...
    1
  1692.  @Theoneuno  Sure, and maybe you should also read Deuteronomy 20:13, Deuteronomy 21:11, and Judges 21:14? Or Numbers 31:18, and Exodus 21:2-7? Just for completion's sake here - and 'context'. Shall we define ALL the above, for marriage, and relationships, then - and how it applies? Also, do you fulfil John 14:13 - out, of interest...?
    1
  1693.  @Theoneuno  I'd still prefer, that you read those verses, I suggested, Scott. It may help, the next part of your case - perhaps?
    1
  1694. Is it very clear cut though about why angels would have pride in heaven?
    1
  1695. So why are there still omissions? And why did the community still get caught up in wars and other major mistakes, in the past? And still (to much smaller degree, that is) today? Like with variable 'therapies'?
    1
  1696. I get that, that that is the IDEAL, most of the time. I merely question why it used to go so awry... and to what extent God intervened.
    1
  1697. Also, that he can only experiment on free will by invoking curses, strong delusion, and confusion of languages (among others)
    1
  1698. Monolatrist religions always assumes lives are on the line, but will bury free thought in the process, often, in overreaction.
    1
  1699.  @phoenix1985  That's happen for CENTURIES. Odd that God said little about it when it was about anti Semitism and slavery?
    1
  1700. True, but obtuse at times?
    1
  1701. HIV can affect many differing peoples, not just gays. And do people marry in heaven, or not? Look up the verse?
    1
  1702.  10 LMS  Or a Inquisitor, presumably, as a Christian? or Pope Gregory XIII endorsing massacres with his blessing?
    1
  1703. Pronoun games generally add more irritation than solve it, often. We have enough trouble figuring out what Elohim USE to mean...
    1
  1704. He has not perhaps fully proved self yet, and omissions in story will not be easily tolerated now, not now people have seen the worser sides of dogmatic religion in history. I also note, Alpha, your continued reluctance to discuss what was or wasn't a consensual marriage?
    1
  1705. How many Elohim are there, though? Or from Jewish view, how many attributes of God?
    1
  1706. And of rape?
    1
  1707. But when the bible has OMISSIONS, what do we do then? Has this contributed to churches becoming unsure what to do, and some schisming? To Renewed and Reformed churches? To even deciding if Conversion therapy is a valid strategy?
    1
  1708. Are we talking the God in the Beautitudes, by the way, or in Numbers 11? And Samuel 15? Seems very distant from each other...
    1
  1709. No, thank you. Until you can tell me why Jeopardy came to exist, and why violence and schisms continued to result, and issues continued to be ignored - including the time of the blood libel on Jews - we cannot continue further.
    1
  1710. Ask him again when he defines where forced marriages fall into the same ethical scale...
    1
  1711. @Full Throttle Forced marriages, boy, in ANY context - I WILL have your answer. Be it in Numbers chapter 31, or not.
    1
  1712.  555catnap  And who protected that meaning before later gays were stoned to death? In Christendom?
    1
  1713. I don't mind them refusing to serve wedding cake to people. Claiming they are not natural when they cannot even consistently DEFINE what is natural and why is a bit more contentious though.
    1
  1714.  @Nate77701  Sorry, but Matthew 7:14, Romans 8:30 and Romans 9:12, does not convince me the 'Us' is a generalized, all of mankind kind of multitude, who is 'loved', up to this point. If someone would further elucidate, that'd be nice. Also, how about Achan's sons, in Joshua 7? And his grandsons. And what did happen to many gay people post Matthew 5:18, in Christendom - by default? For the first 900 years, perhaps?
    1
  1715. We are not fallen angels though. We can't SEE God, and we can't DEFINITIVELY tell from nature who the author was.
    1
  1716. I guess.
    1
  1717. Remind if Numbers 31 features entirely normative sexual practices? And consent?
    1
  1718. And when we start saying things are two things at once, we are getting DEEP into some knotty old theology style examples, perhaps...
    1
  1719. Dirt, yes. A plain, not. And what of the word Chuug/Chug in Hebrew? Does it mean spherical?
    1
  1720. Could be the flat thing is because they look at various old Hebrew translations. Plus, want to avoid any concepts relating to evolution, or of there being other worlds to exile angels too? But conspiracy theories often being because people love the idea of having special select knowledge. Also, to what extent did Paul define categories of people who would not, and somehow COULD NOT ever accept the ways of God? And which ways did he specifically mean? Spiritually discerned ones? Or ones children were innately closer to understanding? Without complex hermeneutics and cultural context?
    1
  1721. Also, circle is a fairly vague word, in the context.
    1
  1722. So Paul's advice about nature clearly speaking of God's nature and power is NOT fully accurate, then?
    1
  1723. I would find dealing with a god who is NOT actually all powerful might be more chaotic, or less so, depending on problems in communication etc.
    1
  1724. The world is what I can SEE - along with the HUMAN race, who I obtain compassion, respect and Interest from. I CANNOT see heaven, but I DID hear it was already unstable. So - what - Vox Populi - should I do? When even believers themselves do not always agree or sometimes come to blows?
    1
  1725. Purposely? What if it seems like there wasn't a plan at all? Or that he sets himself up to become unhappy, when there was no need to test Adam or Eve at that time, or in that way - perhaps? And if you want to talk about pride, look at angels. HUMANS wouldn't suicidally rock the boat and overthrow someone if they KNEW he was all powerful and that it would achieve nothing...
    1
  1726.  Tan Tan  Yes, just be celibate for life, then. Would anyone else in the congregation become celibate, then?
    1
  1727. @RedTape Did this same care and consideration occur in past schisms, Pogroms, Inquisitions or sectarian wars, however? With many fairly powerless peasants caught up in the fighting, and having little choice? Or of many Jews, and their fate or not, post Matthew 27:25 and 1 Corinthians 10 - however worded or translated, it was? There was clearly some grounds, for confusion, there. And for how to apply Leviticus 25:46 in Africa, perhaps - for a long time.
    1
  1728. What about when the bible has several glaring omissions?
    1
  1729. Well, there is context of sort for that - but you know what they say: Prevention is better than cure...
    1
  1730. So - which parts of nature ensure free choice, or not...? Or of inherited aspects from Eve...
    1
  1731. And transgress what? Also, why did YHWH owe Satan anything?
    1
  1732. And your view on Numbers 31:17, and consent, in it? Also, Satan was apparently owed to - keep any powers, reach this world, and have any contact with humans at all.... why?
    1
  1733. How? And did those captives have A CHOICE in what became of them? Not to be killed, but to marry? And for why was Satan owed ANY access to human beings, at all? Or to keep any powers from heaven? Was that more free will than many yet unborn people had over the fruit and it's impact?
    1
  1734. I was also referring to captive women, as well...
    1
  1735. And what IS said of sexual consent, in Numbers chapter 31?
    1
  1736. Judging people is overrated.
    1
  1737. Can YOU tell them why it exists, and why conversion therapy rarely seems to work fully?
    1
  1738. Some may disagree. Some even begged God not to be gay, but oddly, received NO answer...
    1
  1739. I know a few. I read blogs of a few others. Otherwise, I pass no opinion on them. Just that if it WAS a 'choice' you had better justify how. I'm not sure Ham's kids had a choice, for instance. Nor all souls, to have their very nature altered by what Eve and Adam did?
    1
  1740. I was just giving my point of view, as honestly as I felt I could, thanks.
    1
  1741. Odd that St. Paul did same, I think.
    1
  1742. And what does James 3:15 have to say about it?
    1
  1743. Okay. But may I ask... what happened to them in PAST centuries of Christendom?
    1
  1744. And why would I support possible rape, Alpha? Also, what WAS to become of gays, in past centuries? Death, or not?
    1
  1745. What did Samuel used to be described as when resurrected? A Nephesh, or an elohim?
    1
  1746. Awkward for many of the Jews who missed the subtleties then, and got a blood libel on them?
    1
  1747. And was Numbers 31:17, and matter of consent, abominable?
    1
  1748. It may be hard, yes. List of communications you had with God, on this?
    1
  1749. So, did God speak to you, then?
    1
  1750. And about sex, choice, and how much of nature Satan can influence or control, or not? Many are still confused about that...
    1
  1751. Aren't extraterrestial invasions VERY easy, if fallen angels can't even be prevented from invading? And bringing about a Flood?
    1
  1752. So why would sin EVER occur in heaven? What was FLAWED about it, or of the nature of angels? And was it REALLY one third that rebelled, or is that just more layered allegorical symbolism? Which I assume, never contributes to schisms? At all?
    1
  1753. One wonders how it got that bad at all. Or if pre Flood people were valued less? Or Ham's kids, and others?
    1
  1754. Ah, and was it traditional in Numbers 31:17's aftermath? (sorry)
    1
  1755. Funny how he the devil is ALWAYS blamed, even when the question is one about taking INITIATIVE or getting people to meet TOGETHER and clarify their own views. But in the end, it's down to churches themselves, perhaps.
    1
  1756. Too late. They already do. Start thinking about how this looks from the OUTSIDE.
    1
  1757. Sorry, why can he REACH this world at all? Was he SUPPOSE to? And why did a blood libel on medieval Jews do immense damage to them, in Christendom?
    1
  1758. So does God ever consciously, make Himself, unhappy? Or fail to get what He wants? Or be caught by surprise by what He creates?
    1
  1759. Which particular evidence? And did the Babel curse make it harder OR easier for disguised rebel angels to deceive scattered tribes?
    1
  1760. Now, Romans 1:20 makes a point about nature, but, essentially, does nothing to say WHICH or how MANY creators were involved. And many ancient societies believed multiple gods were at odds with each other often in nature.
    1
  1761. Nor is why Satan had such access, thus far...
    1
  1762. And for any that STOP reading after Numbers 15 and 31, why would they, kids included, WANT to be with that being? Or one that permitted a blood libel on Jews? Depends how it is taught... And the torture is POST judgement, is it not? Except when many argue it is annihilationism?
    1
  1763. Why are all descendants born with it? Did Adam and even KNOW that would occur? Or that any beyond their TWO lives were at stake, at time? And why was Satan owed any access to them?
    1
  1764. So, what has He also said to you, on this, Tan Tan? And what parts of nature Satan can control, or not?
    1
  1765. Did the existence of pride in angels, within heaven, also happen for a reason? Whether it was suicidal or not?
    1
  1766. Even angels. oddly, we never learn much about why they would WANT to...
    1
  1767. We can't keep going in circles...
    1
  1768. I'd like to know what the difference is between a FATHER and a FARMER. Or at least, A Potter.
    1
  1769. @Hong Kong Incomplete information, at that?
    1
  1770. What choice did they have? That was predecided by their 'parents' - however literal that was. Then they have to rely on and editable BOOK to bridge the gap? Know ye not that you are...
    1
  1771. @Full Throttle You mean, He LEFT HIMSELF open to being harmed, which was the deal surely, anyway, in GIVING people free will, to begin with? Why should that surprise Him? Or is He still reeling in SHOCK from how one third of the angels inexplicably rejected, doubted or turned on Him, in heaven itself, and in His direct presence? And incidentally, it's a bit foolish to say we 'seek to be god' just when we chose how we think or relate about things, that we can see with our own senses, and try to grasp. He chose to become invisible, despite knowing Eve and Adam would obviously fail. That was His choice - as it was to leave them with so little knowledge with which to make choices, on being Stewards. And was there, any command, at all, to try, to cure, gay people, until very, very recently? And decidedly on the non-official side, at that.
    1
  1772. @Full Throttle I am still not sure how what I said was not somewhat relevant, to the discussion. He knew Adam and Eve would fail, yes? And that they were not prepared fully, for their role, and that all of the rest of us, would not have a choice in it? Also, why did Moses have to calm Him down, in Numbers 14?
    1
  1773. Okay, but not all were in a past relationship, and unsure of what their orientation was, early on, though?
    1
  1774. Did Paul say that as well though? Or did he use word reprobates?
    1
  1775. Which last days are we referring to again? "This generation will not pass until these things..." and so forth? Or is Matthew 21:43 mean't to cover that?
    1
  1776. Well, given Paul and Timothy didn't travel that far outside of Roman territory, they bring in associations with temple prostitution into it...
    1
  1777. Can you be a human being? Compassion evolves - it expands...
    1
  1778. I don't know if I SUPPORT the lifestyle of various priests, especially if they retain access to choir boys...
    1
  1779. Why did angels not sometimes suppress their feelings? And why were any dissatisfied in heaven?
    1
  1780. Also, HOW much of nature do or do not these disloyal angels get to influence or control...?
    1
  1781. And is God HAPPY with Jews being 'deluded' Omega?
    1
  1782. Can God officially disenfranchise a church? Or, for sake of the argument, a Magadalene Laundry? (in Ireland)
    1
  1783. Or any takers, in general... just to show what they have read.
    1
  1784. Well, it certainly LOOKS like an abortion to many, yes...
    1
  1785.  @jacksongrey1627  Well, you know the solution, right? Ask God to openly demonstrate they are wrong? Although for flat earthers, merely pointing out how large bridges are built is fairly conclusive, I'd think.
    1
  1786. Which may not be an idea original to that book, anyway. And I'm not sure how Leviticus 25:46 fit with it, also...?
    1
  1787.  Tan Tan  And as I said, what DID Happen to gays in prior periods of Christendom's history - and how much of their nature CAN or cannot Satan alter or control...?
    1
  1788.  Tan Tan  So, were the Old Laws to be FINISHED with, had they ceased to be of much use, once all were in the Body of Christ, slave and free, man and women, etc, even Romans - and how to convince ALL involved (including Jews) that was so, or why, if God's 'ways do not change'? Was there a NEED to keep Leviticus, Exodus or Judges past that point? Especially if they could be fatally misunderstood, for some people? And I gather you don't care, but I'm not asking what Satan can do to YOU - I mean to the 'heathens', to the 'natural men' or to the bystanders, around the globe - hypothetically.
    1
  1789.  Tan Tan  And did the Spirit care if the Spirit was badly misunderstood, or used to justify certain crimes, in some of the churches later?
    1
  1790. One version of it, at least.
    1
  1791. Thanks. Not sure how that works for pre Flood people sometimes, or medieval Jews though...
    1
  1792. And how does one tell? How many variations of Christianity are there, now?
    1
  1793. Well, they weren't convinced that they 'only experience lust' I suppose. Or are infected by handy demons.
    1
  1794. Well, they have something INSIDE them that often enables it, whether in materialism or not. Buddhists talk about Buddha nature also...
    1
  1795. I'm not sure if the line 'not real Christians' is always going to persuade people. Perhaps you could compare notes as to spiritual experiences?
    1
  1796. There was no sin. Was there choice? Without knowledge of Good and Evil/Bad could they MAKE a choice, or it be malicious? Would children have even been BORN? Can you have continuous reproduction without eventual death, which historically has been treated as catastrophic by priests, and not simply as a necessary tradeoff?
    1
  1797. And an INHERITED curse that alters human nature and will (such is how I view the Eden fruit) does NOT make all will equal anymore, nor is situation involving altered global nature, or God AND the disloyal disguised angels being rendered invisible. All this affects free will (to say nothing of if 1 Corinthians 2:14 implies some are born more compromised than others) and makes it seem like Eve, Adam, and Satan, were offered far MORE free will, and able to weaken free will, in those to come later...?
    1
  1798.  Leon Kennedy  Yes, same as I try to love Christians despite the VERY strange interpretations of Leviticus 25:46 or Matthew 27:25, historically...
    1
  1799.  Leon Kennedy  Yes, but nevertheless, STRANGE interpretations of both persisted for centuries, under later Christendom - and do appear to have cost several lives, or freedoms. And what do we mean by 'liability' in this particular context, and extended how far?
    1
  1800. And when they conflict, also, @Manoj Gabriel? Should I shun or hate 'natural men', say, or hate my parents in any major way compared to Jesus? Also, what was mean't to become of gay people? Were any to be stoned?
    1
  1801.  @manojgabriel84  And why was ANY ANGEL able or of any mind to sin, in heaven, to begin with? Or ever get the idea? Or ever think they could win a revolt? Also, what did Paul say about the 'natural man' and why did it seem like shunning them?
    1
  1802.  @odilenoboa7428  Also, have you checked ALL descriptions of the Mossiach, and how Jews view them, and how they disagree on many of them, and why? And why was Satan permitted to KEEP any angelic powers, post exile?
    1
  1803.  @odilenoboa7428  When some ANGELS were born though, had THEY been born with a sinful or ignorant nature, and how, and why? And why would they EVER conclude Satan could WIN a revolt, or feel any need to have a revolt? Or keep any powers POST exile, and have any access to Eden, or to Earth? Also, did Eve and Adam have any idea that more was at stake than their TWO lives, or that they COULD alter all human nature, or hand over partial control of the world to a being they may have had no idea existed? And if they were not to have knowledge of good and evil, then what knowledge, as Stewards of the Earth, WERE they mean't to have, to, well, fulfil their role? And protect Earth?
    1
  1804.  @odilenoboa7428  As for Matthew 27:25, how was it that a good number of priests and theologians spun that into a persistent curse or sign of disfavour among Jews? Perpetuating the idea of them as chronic god killers, or cursed?
    1
  1805. Some do, sadly. Or fear them. There is a wide variety of Christians, in several groups, and attitudes.
    1
  1806. But many DID use to fear God chastising their culture, if they, ah, 'tolerated' homosexuals, among them? Or may at least be somewhat worried, about such events? And there are those also, who think gay behaviour can be, ah, passed on, also?
    1
  1807. Ah, and this is because Satan was for some reason permitted access to this world, in any way, in the first place? Why was that, again?
    1
  1808. I am still wondering what is natural for an angel, basically. And how much we can freely choose, within nature, itself, without it being compromised, already.
    1
  1809. Anyway, this is mostly an attempt to get 阿尔法 to engage with deeper logic thereof; Longshot, maybe.
    1
  1810. Even Ham's kids? And pre Flood people? And Esau? And Amalekites? And Medieval Jews? Or, I mean, were they ever loved less?
    1
  1811. And what is or isn't natural? Including in light of Corinthians 2:14?
    1
  1812. Ambiguous, per some readings, thus far.
    1
  1813.  @kooluvr  They may have been a couple, yes. It's a bit hard to tell, from some translations or versions.
    1
  1814. Something I still don't get: What powers did Satan have before he fell? (covering cherub?) and what powers was he handily allowed to RETAIN?
    1
  1815. So, Deuteronomy 20:10 - was that behaviour detrimental? For sending clear messages about CONSENT or not?
    1
  1816. Strong delusion... I again ask, how much of nature is Satan permitted control over?
    1
  1817. On what scale is the righteousness in Numbers 31:14, and Samuel 15:15, as well as Deuteronomy 21?
    1
  1818. I'm not, crystal clear, on how we explain Numbers 11, verse 19 to 34, to adolescents and CHILDREN, however?
    1
  1819. But Mark O'Shiro and many others knocked, were desperate, unhappy, but were NOT answered? Even when wishing to speak to God and BEGGING to not be gay, for one example? Having experience abuse or shunning in their church? And why did the Devil RETAIN any angelic powers post exile, or be granted any access to Eden, or to Earth? Also, how does one know when a church is correctly guided by the Spirit, and in Discerning deeper scriptural meanings, if churches vary so much on some of that?
    1
  1820. @Nomit - so, did taking Canaanite women CAPTIVE and compelling their marriage feel GOOD or not, in Numbers 31:17? And the actions of Torquemada? How did they feel, in Spain?
    1
  1821. Well, we need overlap, common ground, rather than absolute acquiescence, usually.
    1
  1822. Didn't Paul, perhaps prematurely, try to close off many lines of inquiry in Romans and Corinthians? He had not visited all of the world yet. Similar with James?
    1
  1823. No. You are the bearer of no news. You have filled it with GAPS. You will begin with WHY Satan was owed any access to this world whatsoever, why he got to retain various powers, if Eve knew of stakes to any beyond her and Adam alone, and how she meaningfully chooses for all humans whilst NOT KNOWING what good and evil in fact were, at the time. A set of knowledge one would expect a Steward of this world to HAVE, usually? After which we will discuss what Corinthians 2:14 means by a 'natural man' and if that is in fact the words Paul INTENDED to use, and not 'unspiritual man'? As it is a BAD start to use the word natural perhaps in two conflicting ways?
    1
  1824. Many other issues could have been resolved in prior centuries with far less bloodshed, including slavery, anti-semitism, how gays are to be treated and if a cure was even possible, and various feudal wars involving many Christian peasants. May I ask how much those were a priority to resolve?
    1
  1825. Why was it made? And why could Satan get BACK into heaven, to discuss Job's life? Why did his opinion also matter to GOD, after he'd thoroughly betrayed him? Could it be his character was not actually WRITTEN yet as a suicidal, delusional, ignorant and prideful rebel angel, who did not know what 'highest' and 'omniscient' mean't as basic spiritual concepts?
    1
  1826. And not a fearful way? The two do seem often entwined?
    1
  1827. Consent, naturally, is important. Of course, this means Deuteronomy 21 and Numbers 31 will ALSO have to be examined, in light of that...
    1
  1828. And where do angels inherit it from? Do we inherit it because Satan could now control bits of nature?
    1
  1829.  @tobiasrochester1594  Yeah, but how will all the other churches agree, and how do they know which one is best... guided?
    1
  1830. @Access Denied Mhm, so what DID become of captive Middianite women after Numbers chapter 15, precisely? And how consensual was their fate, and was any of it 'depraved' too. And how many concubines should a king like Solomon, have. And shouldn't stones be used for building, not chucking? Clunky looking remedial method, it is.
    1
  1831. And again, why was any soul put into risk? What was Satan owed? Or what was he there to prove?
    1
  1832. Also, Tesla created alternating current, as I recall...
    1
  1833. I know he was a dodgy one, yeah. Was just clarifying.
    1
  1834. And is that ever likely to happen?
    1
  1835. If God wanted no angels to die, why were any of them IGNORANT that Satan could never possibly WIN a revolt? And why can ANY of them reach THIS world, thereafter?
    1
  1836. Amos 3:6 and Isaiah 45:7 are both... curious, in that, yes.
    1
  1837. Why is it corrupt? And why was heaven, even for one brief period, .ever corrupt?
    1
  1838. How is it CONSCIOUS rebellion, when God distances himself/the Elohim distance THEIRselves? What did people choose before birth? Which bits of nature are signs of uncorrupted original, and which are not?
    1
  1839. Do rapists inherit the Kingdom? Do torturers, or apologists for them, and feudal wars, and continued slavery? What DID also become of the captives in Numbers 31:17? And in your view, why did Satan retain any powers, post exile - or re-enter heaven, as in the Book of Job? It is hard to be... deceived, when many do not even HAVE the entire contextual story, as yet. Nor a clear view of WHICH Christianity is most accurately Discerning the will of the Spirit, both now, and historically...?
    1
  1840. After all, you can't love others unless you can love yourself a lot of the time, too.
    1
  1841. Given that free will seems to cause continual surprises, even in angels?
    1
  1842. And which values are in Numbers 31:17? Including on consent?
    1
  1843. Siege mentalities will often occur.
    1
  1844. What is the world? The society, or all the world, and your neighbours too? And why was heaven ever unstable?
    1
  1845. It's not about whether he doesn't exist. It's partly the matter of WHY HE IS HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. Did Adam sign a contract with him, or what? All before people were born? Why could a snake get into Edin?
    1
  1846. WE are not fallen angels though. WE were not living in God's direct presence. So why are ANGELS more likely to rebel, with less cause? And 1/3 of them? Now, due to Eve, WE cannot see God, or be sure who the author if nature is (at best, A God, but not specifically any single one for sure - no message on the moon either) And these angels also didn't have sufficient knowledge to know they couldn't win? That sounds deeper than mere pride as a motive...
    1
  1847. Also, by the time I came to read Book of Numbers and following texts in the Bible, it was suddenly quite hard to tell the two characters apart.
    1
  1848. And children have ability to discern when an action looked cruel. I thought Jesus valued children? And your thoughts on Paul's definition of nature, vs his definition of the 'natural man'? Slightly tautological?
    1
  1849. I would say the relevant time was NOW - when CHILDREN are reading the book unsupervised, and making up their own minds.
    1
  1850. @Jack Reacher I've, er, heard it before, that this was the end times? One guy last week said the end would begin, quite visibly, on the weekend? The previous weekend...
    1
  1851. @Jack Reacher So, look up Preterism, too? And if not that method, then can we at least ever be told the right CENTURY?
    1
  1852. @Jack Reacher Who put it into bondage of corruption in the first place? Surely not two unwitting humans, who had no idea what good or evil were, so could not really effectively 'choose' how to view disobedience?
    1
  1853. It's likely very simple. Religions and tribes want babies. Homosexuality does not make them. Now, if assorted theists want to tell me why feudal wars were such a priority, between peasants who had same god, but still must go off to die, then I might listen to their further explications on this... oh, and how long slavery was to last..
    1
  1854. And as Ham's kids were?
    1
  1855. And God permitted that?
    1
  1856. I suggest you go to Brunei, then, Salam - Peace, and help out many there?
    1
  1857. And didn't many used to be put to DEATH for it?
    1
  1858. And where do inherited curses fit into it, either...
    1
  1859. I can tell Numbers 11:19 is EVIL, and I don't think I needed to strain too hard?
    1
  1860. And under the new convenant, Paul and James cannot give a fully consistent model of what nature and the 'natural man' is?
    1
  1861. Also, about how free will and transmitted delusion work together...
    1
  1862. Right, you hate the thing they did. After giving them the means to do it. Then you write into the rules they must be sentenced to death, but can postpone the punishment and send someone to take on the punishment in the place of their descendants, whilst saboteur angels run about...?
    1
  1863. Deluded? Why do people still keep saying genocide is okay when God commands it, and taking slaves? And that God allows humans to steal his honour, thus why they are collectively punished? And why are many believers now saying Eve had intercourse with the serpent, per some translations?
    1
  1864. But God KNEW Eve would make that choice. And has a blood libel on Jews AIDED reconciliation, at all? So why would it have gone on so long, in medieval times? And how can people reject someone who hid Himself, and only appeared in the middle east generally, when many were spread around the world? What did He do before the Flood, say? The one He also KNEW would end up occurring? How widely was He seen? A delegator - yes, that's part of how I see the problem. The delegating often looks chaotic, and internecine...
    1
  1865. But if we badly need to know why heaven would EVER seem unstable and what narrow paths are and if Satan DOES or does NOT have partial control over nature, then maybe some EXPANSION is necessary? Lorna Byrne seemed willing to try that, but predictably, is labelled heretical by many...
    1
  1866. Stoning people is also pretty darn revolting. So is taking women captives and giving them to men. As for making rape victims marry the perpetrator, I don't know how I feel about that.
    1
  1867. So, how DID God feel about Leviticus 25:46?
    1
  1868. @Shinaej Zhang - hmm, were you also told to SHUN or avoid the 'natural man' (1 Corinthians 2:14) too? As they are so unlikely to receive wisdom/salvation/context on why ANYONE got jeopardised, etc?
    1
  1869. Also, how are Catholics answered in prayers, vs other denominations? Compare the Lady of Fatima incident, say?
    1
  1870. There are roughly millions to BILLIONS of Catholics though, and most will not know how they'd been, er, deceived. Reminding there is a disunited front also may not boost confidence. And when the scripture has omissions too...
    1
  1871. And when they have it read to them by other people? Catholicism formed at a time when most couldn't even READ it in non-Latin languages, and churches do not necessarily 'renew' or 'reform' if all the issues are always CLEAR CUT. As for the Pope Leo X the business...
    1
  1872. Nor do people listen to say, Lorna Byrne and her books on angels, if they think they got all the answers they hoped for or expected, no?
    1
  1873. Now you could ask that of ANY INFORMATION anybody gets about such topics, John of Patmos, or many others. I have assembled quite a list of such by now. And many perspectives on it, from mystics, scholars, theologians, Gnostics and more. It can all start to look like, oh, like somebody's playing many GAMES WITH US, no? And why some request for an EXPANDED TEXT may have some logic?
    1
  1874. Also, makes both spiritual discernment and Romans 1:20 being clear cut that much messier? Of course, depends if the intended people referenced in Romans 1:20 were ever any more than local Hebrews, or if Paul's argumental breadth failed him, somewhat?
    1
  1875. The word has become kind of dirtied over a long period, from assorted conflicts and misunderstandings. As well as the unresolved oddity of why such a being would ever make Himself unhappy, despite knowing Adam and Eve were not ready, and the harm disloyal angels could do, perhaps, if admitted passage to Earth?
    1
  1876. Dogma often prevents that nuance from being apparent.
    1
  1877. And what was Numbers 5:11's take on abortion, again? Can confuse.
    1
  1878. It's verse where an adulterous woman is fed a potion that MAY or may not abort the child in her...
    1
  1879. I don't really argue against that, although some rabbis did argue life began at birth. Others say above verse only harmed woman, and not child..
    1
  1880. So, what did the 'water' do? Also, if real... we will talk. We will fill in some gaps... Also, ask Neale Walsch, Paul M. Young, Lorna Byrne and others on this...
    1
  1881. Solution? How did the problem also come about? And what was Satan/Samael owed?
    1
  1882. I would still like to know standards or what IS or is NOT a forced marriage, Alpha?
    1
  1883.  @andreasmunzer1143  Amos 3:6 - Isaiah 45:7 - still at times unclear.
    1
  1884. Less OMISSIONS, before we try to answer complex questions, please. Including about Jeopardy?
    1
  1885. Just waiting to hear what the consistent definition is. With or without powers of the spirit being common - no offence.
    1
  1886. Okay. And on why Satan was owed anything?
    1
  1887. And why did God allow them to do that?
    1
  1888. Well, they do not always, and the key issue is not whether they should tolerate each other, but things like if it is 'natural or a choice', surely? Or what God would want, not that 'e's always been so clear cut on that consistently?
    1
  1889.  @lucyeth8160  Yes, but many of THEM cannot even AGREE on that, can they? They argue the livelong day over it over what a fairly INCOMPLETE looking book says, apparently...
    1
  1890. @Pitts DaThird You have to COMPLETE the Bible too, and have parts be no longer ambiguous or disputed, before it can WORK, also. And even THAT does not always seem enough, as people must be then spiritually guided, it is often claimed, before they really understand the MEANING? And that too, may not always be consistent, between churches?
    1
  1891. This may sound familiar...
    1
  1892. And which of these 25 messengers CLEARLY and without omission say WHY Satan was owed any access to this world, and if Eve could make MEANINGFUL choices for this world, whilst lacking any knowledge of what good or evil were?
    1
  1893. Also, why has Islam split into several slightly different forms, which sometimes end up in conflict with each other?
    1
  1894. And of rape? I must be sure of this...
    1
  1895. Also, why did Satan get back into heaven, once?
    1
  1896. I'd love to see the little feud, but that there is division among you Christians does not yet win me over...
    1
  1897. I am asking because it is not always fully clear what DID occur post Numbers 31:17... I had asked Alpha, and was not fully clear on his response, either.
    1
  1898. I do find it has curious... gaps, in it...
    1
  1899. You blame that for all things. Why was Satan OWED Any access to him? And if Satan CAN alter bits of nature, how can we see it as evidence of God, reliably?
    1
  1900. Also, how did your cure work? And why will it not always work on others?
    1
  1901.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  Ah, some actually DO do this, at times. And some are riled up into siege mentalities or fear or what some call 'subversives', at times.
    1
  1902. AN does it have no upper limit? Plus, if Eden NEVER had any death, what occurs then?
    1
  1903. Well, it does confuse me a little, too. That said, saying heaven was perfect yet unstable, and that Christianity is a way of peace, yet the churches once widely supported feudal wars, also seems fairly confusing...
    1
  1904. And, I guess, there is the problem of apparent schisms, and some ambiguity over what Discernment is?
    1
  1905. Well said. I hope Numbers 31:17 isn't shoved about much, either?
    1
  1906. And will priests make same promise, among altar boys?
    1
  1907. And where does James 3:15 fit into it? With Romans 1:20? Some just don't forsee the SAME God as Paul and others do, necessarily.
    1
  1908. Or requires more qualifiers...
    1
  1909. Didn't work on Satan. And what about Consent? Numbers 31:17 seemed vague about it...
    1
  1910. It would be nice if we could ALL clarify what is mean't by free will. Adam, Eve, fruit, inherited nature, curses and strong delusion, included?
    1
  1911. Why - was - it - there - then? And was it not just having KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil/Bad (older translation?) If they did not yet HAVE that, than how did they know how to feel about the choice? Also, what knowledge DID they have? And if they had NOT left the garden, would you or I exist?
    1
  1912. Good comparison, Ryan.
    1
  1913. Describe how Metanoia works, if you may, Horseman?
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  1914. Funny how words don't stand the test of time so well in communicating nuance, doesn't it? Like experience continually has to substitute for it...
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  1915. Why was heaven ever unstable anyway? Also, how much of nature is Satan permitted to control?
    1
  1916. What did St Paul say about 'effeminates' though?
    1
  1917.  Arch Stanton  I don't think he was very fond of them, though. And his 1 Corinthians 2:14 splurge always seemed suspect, to me. (depends on how it was worded in versions, too though)
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  1918.  Arch Stanton  Nah, mate, if God felt it was OKAY for that to sometimes be written as 'the NATURAL man', then maybe He'll have to live with it. As it starts to raise questions to the reliability and POINT of nature, perhaps...
    1
  1919.  Arch Stanton  Then how SHOULD 1 Corinthians 2:14 be translated? Why SO MANY interpretations? Given some are used by Christians to accuse EACH OTHER (in rival sects) of not being 'true' Christians, or properly understanding the Spirit. And taken very literally, it clashes with the description from Romans 1:20...
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  1920.  Arch Stanton  About what purpose NATURE serves, and what we can LEARN from nature, or if it misleads us ever about God? How much of it can or cannot be warped or altered or partially controlled by Satan or not, too?
    1
  1921.  Arch Stanton  My point exactly, yes. I feel many theists try to have things BOTH ways, on that topic, heh.
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  1922. And before any say 'you're not supposed to,' many could not agree on if supporting feudal wars, slavery and anti semitism were right, until not so long ago - or the divine right of kings. Also, odd that Jesus, Paul and others never foresaw the church BEING A crucial part of the temporal and political powerbase?
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  1923.    Sorry, to also save us from WHAT or WHO? And why did Satan get to keep any powers or reach this world? Plus, how do two Stewards of the Earth choose, meaningfully, for ALL humans to be separated from God, when not knowing what good or evil were, or the stakes beyond to the two of them, apparently? Also, how do they function as Stewards of this World, therefore? And are people in 1 Corinthians 2:14 less able to be saved than others, and was their mind and will weakened by what Eve did? Were ALL of our minds and natures weakened? And did she KNOW she could do that - or transfer control of this world in any way to Satan (plus if he even was known to exist to her)
    1
  1924. Also, it was only three days dead, right? Though also, many say, taking on massive pain and destructive power symbolising separation and estrangement from God - and yet also, Satan can just get back into heaven freely, anyway, in the Book of Job, earlier on?
    1
  1925.    I need to know why he had to die at all, naturally.
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  1926. @Vitaz Some of them already look like hateful messages. And why has it taken so long to derive a... cure?
    1
  1927. So how do you confirm which of you is right?
    1
  1928. Also, was Leviticus 25:46 and Numbers 31:17 an abomination, or not?
    1
  1929. Well, for start, WHICH Christianity is under discussion too?
    1
  1930. @Oompa Loompa Then why is Catholicism, Protestantism, Charismatics and East Orthodoxy (to name but a few) so variable, or at odds?
    1
  1931. And of Luke 14:26? Also, if I may, why was Satan OWED any access to humans, at all?
    1
  1932. And sin BEGAN in heaven - so how? From what source? Were some angels delusional? Born ignorant?
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  1933. Some are, some aren't. But has the siege mentality ever REALLY helped? This is NOT Rome. This is NOT Babylon. You would know if it was. And have any of you ever heard of the Hyksos and their relationship to the Egyptians? Under explored chapters of history remain...
    1
  1934.  @Dadflinn92  Sorry, you don't yet have proof. Angels had a 'choice', even if it made no d&mn sense, to 'rebel' in a perfect realm. Humans are subject to hormones, stressors, biology and epigenetics. Plus, other species have displayed homosexual traits as well. So it would seem the proof is, at best, work in progress. And on the same level as pompous Romans 1:20 and it's more flawed rhetorical points, just possibly.
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  1935. What is the difference between discernment and discrimination?
    1
  1936. Was there actual marriage in Numbers 31:17...?
    1
  1937. Just trying to grasp what does or does'n't count as one. And consent...
    1
  1938. Who does? Could we fill in some omissions? To prove you do understand it, too?
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  1939. Also, sexual immorality / Numbers 31:17, where does it fall? Lack of clarity there may lead to doubt of argument.
    1
  1940. Control the brand then. Or risk loosing the market. Also, poor comunication turns away.
    1
  1941. Did Paul ever do this? (carnal man, the natural man, reprobates...)
    1
  1942.  Jeffrey R. Gilbert Jr.  Did you fulfil John 14:13, then? Oh, let us know. And when Augustine and Paul III and others 'stumbled' then whole nations knew, didn't they? And medieval Jews.
    1
  1943. Is it a bookkeeping error?
    1
  1944. May be some of those. Or there wouldn't BE revolts...
    1
  1945. Prove Numbers 31:17, 11:19, Deuteronomy 21, and Samuel 15:15 also are fully GOOD...
    1
  1946. Actual SCIENCE? Newton didn't even believe in the Trinity. And many later scientists were DEISTS. Including Einstein.
    1
  1947. Excuse me, been thinking... Can someone tell me what Jesus PRIMARILY IS? Is he about family? Safety? Obedience? Purity? In a realm where many angels mysteriously rebelled? Is he about pride, weeding, war, judgement, division and fear? Why do churches give so many DIFFERING emphasises about Him? Where is the FAMILY in this, if you have to put Him first, but have Him defined so many divisive ways? What happens to our feelings for others who are jeopardised, perhaps?
    1
  1948. They've never MET God - just a bunch of mixed claims from a book. So how can they personally hate him?
    1
  1949. I try, but I have some pretty significant views I wish to share. I do so as politely as I can.
    1
  1950. Rape was also a sort of bad thing. Can we CONFIRM it did NOT occur in Numbers 31:17?
    1
  1951. So, why did any angels become ignorant, also? And was Numbers 31:17 sinful, or not? Or... criminal?
    1
  1952. Which is? ah, you mean potentially implied rape?
    1
  1953. Were the NEPHILIM in the best interest of humans, Orinoco? Or do you consider that apocryphal? No bearing on Canaanites at all?
    1
  1954. Why? Why initial endangerment, American?
    1
  1955. @Jack Reacher HOW DID they DO THAT, then, or did SATAN have any role in it? And regards nature, what CAN or CANNOT he do?
    1
  1956. But an important question is how HANDS OFF is God, or not? or Ja Havvah, El Shaddai and all the other assorted titles per translation? Including Elohim, which has, ah, some grammatical ambiguity? Also, we then begin to get into the issue of how much free will disguised rebel angels have, and why they have to have any access to Earth at all, where free will of others could be affected. Depending also on how much Eve and Adam's open ended authority (of which they seemed to have limited knowledge?) also impinges upon that?
    1
  1957. If they did not KNOW they had this authority, or the scope of it, and how it would affect their children, then could they legally pass on this authority? To someone who did not need to exiled in reach of Earth at all, potentially? Also, Paul invoked certain categories of those he thought would never be amenable to alteration, later on. So is the act of loving enemies mean't to always provoke change, or benefit the main group? I recall the turning the other cheek had the handy benefit of forcing a Roman solider, say, to use his dominant hand to strike again, something only equals were permitted to do. Not that relevant, but just an example of social nuances that can be lost in accounting.
    1
  1958. And a Sumerian symbol, before that...
    1
  1959. Well, if religions encourage a siege mentality, however unwittingly, does that help?
    1
  1960. So, how is YHWH to streamline message on this? Away from prior divergences and hostilities?
    1
  1961. Who WAS Jehovah? The moon/war god of the Habiru people? The one that very occasional receives snarky comments about his past actions potentially hidden in verse? A member of the plural word Elohim, as originally translated? Someone who tribal figures liked to hang features of their emerging culture onto in order to give them staying power? Witness how Hebrews even today disagree about Isaiah's message...
    1
  1962. Ah, close to it.
    1
  1963. Interesting answer...
    1
  1964. He says many things. Some loose ends result, often.
    1
  1965. What of the things it avoids discussing?
    1
  1966. And angels also have a presumed set nature, yet 1/3 of them did not conform to it - for no clearly revealed reason. Therefore raising the prospect that heaven was imperfect?
    1
  1967. They haven't met him yet. Were they supposed to meet him in a preincarnate state?
    1
  1968. So was nature holy or not? See also James 3:15...
    1
  1969. So what about nature? Was nature pointing to God, as Romans 1:20 implied, or subverted by demonic wisdom? How do people trust what they are being preached?
    1
  1970. And Elohim has never been used to describe a human before... I don't think (see Samuel when raised by Saul)
    1
  1971. But if heaven was imperfect initially, what does that imply?
    1
  1972. Then if they had a ROLE, or a purpose, wasn't that FITTED to them? So it was either perfect for them, or imperfect? Or the KNOWLEDGE they had to fulfil that role? Or to at least know that attempt a civil war against an (allegedly) omnipotent being was SUICIDAL? Again, I must ask, did they LACK for anything? Even something that might be BAD for them? But which they lacked knowledge to KNOW it was bad? Like having flesh? In short, how do you 'bribe' an angel?
    1
  1973. Based on reading the book of Numbers, how many young people would at least HESITATE in 'choosing' God? Or at least, Jehovah?
    1
  1974. And what becomes of the female prisoners, Omega?
    1
  1975. Chapter 31, verse 17, fate of female prisoners...
    1
  1976. Also helps to fully work out what the term means, though. And to clearly define the jeopardy that necessitated salvation...
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  1977. @Hilary Sudeikis - he barely SPOKE about homosexuality at all, Hilary. Or much about what form of slavery was evil or not (inc Leviticus 25:46?)
    1
  1978. How do they consciously go against him? Or at least, a book? And how much of nature can or cannot Satan influence or alter, anyway, 阿尔法, and why?
    1
  1979. Ah, the words of the Prince of Peace remain deployed as clunkily as ever... and with so much attendant hypocrisy...
    1
  1980. How is it a conscious choice? Remind me again? And how much was pre decided by Adam and Eve, with no idea of what evil or good was, at the time?
    1
  1981. Do they have much reason for trust? Or do they expect to be burnt up like in Numbers 1:11? Or struck down like the man who dropped the Ark?
    1
  1982. CONSCIOUSLY rebel, or what? Being judged from the outside by a group with a history of conquest or infighting may lead to sceptical responses. Do you also remember what I said about Christendom fighting in Britain and Europe? History did not begin in Israel and jump straight to America.
    1
  1983. They're always talking about being hated. Sure - in Roman times, I guess. Those times ended. Also, Christians had persecuted others, on occasion (inc Agora, among the Greeks?)
    1
  1984. If they say they follow Christ (to say nothing of shady Jehovah) then they are technically Christians. There - didn't even bring up the Blood Libel at all...
    1
  1985. Which? How do we get from two people deciding for everyone to people unconsciously distancing themselves from God? the one reportedly happy to have some executed, or treated as crops? Or sent strong delusion...
    1
  1986. Correctamundo! How about how to treat female prisoners?
    1
  1987. Some want to do conversion therapy. So why is that process so traumatic, or not fully successful?
    1
  1988. Well, they lump a lot of people together, habitually - even the 'wrong' churches of their own, often, @Juals The Fool . But not always, I guess. C.S. Lewis in his book Mere Christianity did TRY to at least touch intelligently on the subject, I suppose. A lot of that is still quite abstract claims, though.
    1
  1989. @RedTape Was it their choice, to be unbelievers, by being BORN into other religions? And why should any Jews trust you after their abandonment and neglect, to errant Christians, for CENTURIES, under many torturers too - you mouthy little, evasive, shill? Show me what this God, really, consistently, VALUES - beyond WORDS - to actual, action. Such as turning up to ensure conviction and death, of Sabbath breaker, vs, other, larger issues, say. And read a little C.S. Lewis too (Mere Christianity) before you make such presumptuous statements, perhaps?
    1
  1990. @RedTape And they chose to stay with the religion they are born with, maybe? Seeing no reason to leave it, or friends, family, priests, culture, home, etc? Or to stay in the sexuality they seem familiar with, from an early age? All these are supposedly insisted upon changes, for a 'free gift' - that is often not consistently followed up on, on how all of Christendom functions? With or without pogroms, prejudice, slavery apologetics, antisemitism, hate-speech to gay people, conversion camps that frequently do not... work... etc...
    1
  1991. We can but hope. Of course, actual confirmation, not affirmations, would be nice. And why were any of us put at risk...? Not just of death, but total destruction, or of ceaseless torment...
    1
  1992. Factoring in the Ordeal of Bitter Waters, perhaps? (old testament)
    1
  1993. Feelings can be compared with each other. But who judges their authenticity against another?
    1
  1994. @Miggle What do you mean SUPPOSED? When was it supposed to say that? For how much of it's history? What about what it actually BECAME read as? Did that count? How much does this 'because of free will' thing extend? Why does this look like.... costly negligence?
    1
  1995. Can you explain Corinthians 2:14 for me? And how it fits with Romans 1:20 and James 3:15?
    1
  1996.  Tan Tan  Also, your view of the Numbers 31:17 consent issue, Tan Tan?
    1
  1997. Did He love Esau? Or Moses' in law's tribe?
    1
  1998.  @stareintoyoursoul9883  And what was Paul's main aim, initially? And in categorising various humans? Whether 'natural men' or otherwise?
    1
  1999. Well, you'd have trouble knowing any which one in particular it was, or if some other entity was masquerading.
    1
  2000. And why DOES he have permission to go where he will? Remember the free will paradoxes thus far...?
    1
  2001. Some do wish to be, yes, or feel a sense of the numinous or communion.
    1
  2002. And that they are only NOW contemplating ideas like 'curing' them seems a bit rich, too, to many.
    1
  2003. The problem is, Horseman, that you do not always seem to paint a consistent or COMPETENT picture of who and what God is?
    1
  2004. Both have their problems, but one has tended to be more violent of recent.
    1
  2005. Laws can be also altered in some states if lobbyists are vocal enough, and at times, to detriment of many.
    1
  2006. Adoption, maybe? State laws vary quite a bit...
    1
  2007. Yes, so why did it happen? And for any prolonged length of time? Why were they already treated like a loose end, too, often?
    1
  2008. No, before that. With all those Catholics you seem to think God gave no supervision to. And beware of using free will as the ultimate get out clause - as I spend much time thinking about it. As for the number of Christians in Germany who were swayed by Hitler's arguments, including many priests...
    1
  2009. And pride - in angels - in heaven - weirdly.
    1
  2010. @Vitaz But which step? Still, fine with being an agnostic, myself.
    1
  2011. It would be nice. I'd rather that than a 'swallow up into Earth' or strike a oath breaker dead style display. Or rule with rod of iron example, etc etc. Bona fides sometimes needs stuff beyond force.
    1
  2012. And why would any angels fail this too? Were any created ignorant. Or suicidal? Delusional?
    1
  2013. Just having flesh often seems to result in this, inevitably, according to some. What's all this about desire of the eye, and so forth? Regarding Eve?
    1
  2014. And was Corinthians 2:14 about judging? Also, what IS Natural? especially post Fall?
    1
  2015. Why would there be any struggles? Why is there any gaps or ambiguity in the bible? Should children be able to read it, too? Isn't saving them a priority? And telling them why they are in peril?
    1
  2016. The peril ALL SOULS were facing... (or for some altar boys, of being abused, too?
    1
  2017. And which kids get taught the SAME bible? How much does it vary? What denominations are they born into? (with no choice beforehand)
    1
  2018. I was merely working off his worldview, for sake of arguement.
    1
  2019. God, then, does not have unconditional love? And what is His view of rape?
    1
  2020. Also, no problem, but it does not seem like COMPLETE context, to me, yet?
    1
  2021. Can a Natural Man be a Christian, either?
    1
  2022. And who are you to? And why were some angels suicidal? Also, how much of nature is or isn't Satan permitted to influence or control?
    1
  2023. Where does Deuteronomy 20:10 fit in, about depravity?
    1
  2024. Fate of assorted woman taken prisoner by Israelites? Or am I mixing up my verses?
    1
  2025. What does Deuteronomy 20:10 say about what is or is not depraved?
    1
  2026. Did taking women as enforced marital partners also ever feel right, in certain older... texts?
    1
  2027. So, what IS it all about: Why was Satan owed anything? What does the word Elohim, grammatically, REALLY mean? And why would Stewards of the Earth NOT be told what good or evil was? And what of omissions? Also, what is a NATURAL man? Oh, and does Numbers 31:17 at any point count as sexual immorality...
    1
  2028. Just how were Adam and Eve to do their job, without that knowledge?
    1
  2029. Why not learn some key words? And did He want Adam and Eve to not be able to DO THEIR job? And no, that is NOT the view I got of the term 'natural man' from how PAUL describes it in 1 Corinthians 2:14... look again.
    1
  2030. Ignorance is not perfection. Innocence... maybe. William Blake had ideas about THAT... Knowing a major THREAT existed, and could get to worlds willy nilly, whilst KEEPING powers from heaven, is a major issue for having knowledge of. Or of stakes to more than the TWO of them, maybe? And for why any angel would think Satan COULD win ate all, or needed to... were THEY ignorant? the results can look more like lobotomy or delusion, than actual free will...
    1
  2031. What do you mean time out? Sin/evil was released onto world, and some say they both handed over world to Satan, at same time, to some degree... And if we DO read in old Hebrew, it seems some form of disobedience was perhaps in nature BEFORE Adam was there at all, also...
    1
  2032. Or using duress and oblique threats from dead people, who never met many.
    1
  2033. Final authority? Why was a revolt in heaven (a perfect place. with angels in His PRESENCE, unlike humans) even POSSIBLE?
    1
  2034. WHICH - bits. If you have to travel to a hospital on Sabbath, what do you do? If you have to comfort a gay person going through 'conversion' therapy, what do you do? If you have to explain why blood is used by God to forgive people, what do you do?
    1
  2035. Including agency...
    1
  2036. Most WHAT? Do tell me what most people believe? Have various churches reunited yet? Or do you take turns to be celibate? or just single out some to do that for you?
    1
  2037. Okay. And then what next? No gaps, either?
    1
  2038.  @bakedbeans5494  Fulfil John 14:13. Or you may be, false?
    1
  2039. Influence of politics, media and propaganda may end up applying...
    1
  2040. Horrible things can also be done out of love. And some love is strangely... abstract? Does placing souls in such a vague crucible necessarily toughen them up?
    1
  2041. HOW does it work? What bits of creation were done on contract by lesser angels? Indeed, why would angels even revolt? Was one covering Cherub suddenly able to sway 200 of them so easily?
    1
  2042. Well - WHY did that happen? Why would they be swayed? And why would be humans be judged similarly, given that God is INVISIBLE by default to us? So even if we think of a (male) creator, we would not be sure of His intentions or benignity?)
    1
  2043. So is all imperfection on Earth the result of humans, or humans AND demons? Inc parasites?
    1
  2044. Can't. Which God is it? Even in the Bible, he has major mood swings and unclear motives.
    1
  2045. @Debonte Pitts We do tend to hate 'what is evil', yes. But I prefer not to do it cruelly, or to accept often VERY flimsy suggestions of when people 'choose' to be a hateful - concept? Or, some verge upon - thing.
    1
  2046. But humans can't SEE God, or be sure of his intent. Demons WERE able to - so what is the culpability scale? And why let unborn humans be dragged into the dilemma? Or those in remote parts of the world away from Abraham et al?
    1
  2047. I'm saying why would humans be judged the same way, or judged before they were born? Paul's 'no excuse' verse doesn't seem to hold up as it once was. Proof of a higher order is not proof of all motives in the claims about that order. Or of people's safety and lack of duress (to their souls)
    1
  2048. Yes, feasibly, demons WOULD understand weight more. Or at least that revolt was futile, right? Many questions spring to mind. Also, why they were dumped in proximity to HERE - but that's another question.
    1
  2049. I mean whether people have the deck stacked against them from before they incarnate. Do they come in with pre-existent knowledge of God? Then why do different countries have wildly different experiences thereof (Buddhism among the more abstract?) Or all those tribes not under the watch of Jehovah like Israel was? Was that left to other Elohim? (council of angels) to fend off demons? Much is not recorded.
    1
  2050. And Jehovah acted pretty harshly in the loose aim of 'protection'. How many casual bible readers will stomach their way past Numbers book 15? And get meaningful content out of it?
    1
  2051. One who's credentials can sometimes look confusing? Or will comment on some things, but not others? And will not have miracles occur to a 'sinful and adulterous generation', but also when that generation are often NOT raised the same way, or have more reason for doubts? Just a thought.
    1
  2052. @Jack Reacher So who made NATURE that impaired, then? By some sabotage?
    1
  2053. @Jack Reacher Also, we were NOT also dead to some OTHER spirits, then? The 'wrong' spirits?
    1
  2054. @Jack Reacher Prove it? And again, were we dead to ALL kinds of spirits? If we were NOT dead to the 'wrong' ones, is that not deliberately putting those not yet born into danger, for what Eve unwittingly did?
    1
  2055.  @jacksongreythelatterdaysai916  And yet Satan can go into His presence post revolt, at times?
    1
  2056.  @jacksongreythelatterdaysai916  The Book of Job, specifically. Or was that a 'lower' heaven plane?
    1
  2057. At least milquetoast ones do not torture Jews in Spain, @Emarcee Q'em ?
    1
  2058. And exactly what are the ways of the world? Nature points to the glory and existence of God, but at the SAME TIME, it is sabotaged, or parts are under control of unreliable angels/demons?
    1
  2059. And why does he allow them control? Would Earth even have problems, if they were not allowed here? How much of humanity is mean't to survive this experiment? And why does pride and jealousy pop up several times in relation to Jehovah? Never mind if his ways are not our ways, it seems to blur the message.
    1
  2060. Why would God allow that? Then again, what is said about 2 Chronicles 2:19, and 1 Corinthians 2:14? Also, why we are here, why was Satan owed any access to this world at all, and why could he get back into heaven, later on?
    1
  2061. Ah, how? Most humans drowned, in the past. People keep talking about a narrow path... and what IS a 'natural man'? Do any CHOOSE to be born natural? Or as Paul appeared to mean it, 'unspiritual'? And much of those choices were made before most humans existed, and were denied any certain knowledge that god existed, or which god it was, or that Satan was around...
    1
  2062. Are we crops? What is a pure vessel and an impure one? Plus, thoughts on 2 Chronicles 2:19, and 1 Corinthians 2:14?
    1
  2063. What is He jealous of? Why put counterfeit gods onto this world, at all? And why owe Satan any access? And were many medieval Jews offered this arrangement? Including those tortured? How did all of that come to be? And I can see my parents and I know they love me, and vice versa. What you (and especially Paul of Tarsus, Timothy and others) describe, can be quite different. Also, am I to stop loving large parts of humanity too, on their say so?
    1
  2064. Of your inevitable appearance, and self-liking, yes. I just think it would be nice to get a variety of views FIRST - before you join in.
    1
  2065. Why do those commands also say to keep some female children as captives? (Numbers 31:17)?
    1
  2066. @Emma Is it true? Has Tan Tan... quit?
    1
  2067. And for sexual consent, of prisoners?
    1
  2068. Gosh, who knows? It's a complex psychological web with this lot... (and that book, at times - gaps and all)
    1
  2069. Fill gaps in book too?
    1
  2070. Also, wasn't Sodom destroyed significantly because of RAPE?
    1
  2071. @Jayden They kind of had to figure that out by themselves, or re-interpret it, though. It didn't seem like something God was going to be very forthcoming to all, about, in any hurry, perhaps? Like maybe, during the inquisitions, too...
    1
  2072. And one of those is to defraud or soil the Holy Spirit after contact?
    1
  2073. Certain details are messier and more ambiguous than others. Threats and coercion have appeared to creep into the mix. And the peril of acting on limited information.
    1
  2074. Excuse me, but why did the jeopardy begin? Why could Satan reach Earth?
    1
  2075. Sorry, why is that? Why can Satan reach Earth at all? And did Eve KNOW that was the stakes for her future offspring? Before she met the serpent? And is that all as intended? Generations in advance?
    1
  2076. Also, was Leviticus 25;46 made with a built in expiration date? And the Curse of Ham?
    1
  2077. Pretty rough if you gathered firewood on the wrong holy day...
    1
  2078. Is he Alpha - is he mocking Alpha - I no longer get it.
    1
  2079.  @stever4181  What are you referring to, by freedom? Does it include inherited curses, strong delusion, or what Paul vaguely terms the 'natural man' of 1 Corinthians 2:14? And is nature good, or bad, overall?
    1
  2080.  @stever4181  Also, why in Medieval times, could many STILL not reliably, infallibly understand it, even viz Matthew 27:25 and what was to happen next, or Leviticus 25:46, as relates to Africa, curse of Ham, and many more?
    1
  2081. It did used to. How long was it until choice of a 'cure' was even offered at all? And yes, Islam should be called out, but many here have more contact with, or were former, Christians. Can also engage more with the propaganda and news portions.
    1
  2082.  @icommentoncringeyvideos1233  I'm an agnostic, mainly a humanist, thanks. You also not yet, anyway, see me asking which kind of Christian, you are, I guess.
    1
  2083. @RedTape What do you mean, 'just like everybody' else? NOBODY on this planet ever sinned like angels or Adam and Eve did. And they didn't sin precisely like angels did. Since then, we are, through no CONSCIOUS choice of ours, supposedly PREDISPOSED to sin. Or to live near or worship other gods, that this God somehow WANTED on this world, and to keep powers, no less...
    1
  2084.  @icommentoncringeyvideos1233  And we're NOT GOING to die out - there are 7 and a half BILLION of us, now, most of them very heterosexual. The more offspring are born, the higher the chance of hormones being variable, and thus of being non hetero, from what we can tell. And what were many ANGELS MADE for, and how did any of THEM devolve, in the every direct presence, of this particular alleged, god...?
    1
  2085.  @icommentoncringeyvideos1233  Are they answered the same way? With no variations? And some HAVE ASKED Him, and gotten, NO, answer, at all, oddly...
    1
  2086.  @icommentoncringeyvideos1233  How do you know I haven't done that? And felt WHICH God - what if it's a different one than you expect? Which one did Lorna Byrne encounter, for example, or Paul Young? And if I'm thinking of all the INHUMAN aspects about Him, all the time, will that help?
    1
  2087. So, Ham's kids, Esau, and pre Flood people, they were all loved?
    1
  2088. So, why did He put any souls into danger? And why was Satan owed anything?
    1
  2089. And tricks? And beings disguised as 'beings of light'. And 'false religions', that may at times look no odder than your own? And inherited curses?
    1
  2090. Also, what became of captives in Numbers 31:17? And has curse on Ham and his kids lifted or not?
    1
  2091. So I hear, - but I am never following Numbers 31:17, 15:32, and Leviticus 25:46, thank you. And I would like some HARD info on what they were for, and why./ Nor can I just 'hate' mother and father...
    1
  2092. And many DID, and STILL ended up torturing Spanish Jews? I do not get it... Or endorsing feudal wars between nations that worshipped same God?
    1
  2093. With Ham (and his KIDS) was it SPECIFICALLY lifted? On page?
    1
  2094. Surely I have asked him before? And why do different churches seem to get somewhat differing answers, often? And I HAVE sought much of him, prior.... gaps though, I do not do so well with. Your view also on Matthew 25:27, and Luke 14:26...
    1
  2095. Because everything is supposed to be for a 'purpose'. Thus in defining free will, they run into the Problem of Evil. But also the problem of it being a mixed message whether humans are handiwork of a creation with a mind of it's own...
    1
  2096. And clearly, peepee in the butthole lacks purpose, in their eyes, I guess.
    1
  2097. And who made the jeopardy on Earth in the first place, arguably?
    1
  2098. And is it the Numbers 31:17 show? Was all of that consensual?
    1
  2099. And when will some GAPS be filled? Also, did Martin Luther (medieval one) judge rightly? About Jews?
    1
  2100. And put delusional disloyal angels onto this world - why? Also, why were any angels created ignorant or delusional?
    1
  2101.  @إنالمسيحالله  And handing over a planet to a demented, poorly designed disloyal angel, because two people in Eden were not yet equipped mentally to 'choose' for their entire, yet to be born (mostly) species - that's entirely respectful, is it? Or the 'weddings' in Numbers 31:18? Or the recommendations of Leviticus 25:46 and Deuteronomy 21:13? Are those, respectful. Also, St Paul's odd flexibility on when it's okay to call people 'fools' or not may also be slightly disrespectful. Fortunately, many things no longer need to be punishable, by death, under law - and we can actually discuss many of them. And learn about people, without having to destroy them. Also, that profile picture of which you speak comes from a movie source with more humor than the Jehovah of Numbers to Samuel ever seemed to be capable of.
    1
  2102.  @andreasmunzer1143  So, was there also such a thing as anti semitic Christians? And if so, how did this ever come to be?
    1
  2103. Also, if both do communicate with God, is it possible for a three-way discussion, where He clarifies His views, to both, at once? Or am I... 'testing', Him, somehow, with that suggestion?
    1
  2104. Involving syncreticism?
    1
  2105. And how are humans consciously performing them, on the same level as angels who never had God's face hid from them until AFTER they were born/created?
    1
  2106. From who are we saved, specifically?
    1
  2107. Also, how could any of the angels be ignorant?
    1
  2108. And is it always consensual? Also, Solomon kind of broke that rule, a few times.
    1
  2109. Oh, but siege mentality! Got to point out how the natural mind is all against them...
    1
  2110. Maybe nature is just changing, and that's what nature does? What would have happened if there WAS no fruit being eaten? Has anyone asked that of Horseman?
    1
  2111. Are we likely to die out? For this reason, at least? Is it something you see occurring?
    1
  2112. Also, what of YOUR unanswered questions, Horse... I mean Sleepy?
    1
  2113. No, what of RAPE? CONDONED rape? However implied?
    1
  2114. And what did God seek to KNOW that He did not already know? Did He also know that ONE THIRD of the angels doubted He was omnipotent? That sounds somewhat alarming. How could that even be, in heaven?
    1
  2115. And until Leviticus 25:46 is FULLY discussed (with PROOF), you have NO GROUNDS to discuss slavery, Alpha...
    1
  2116. Does heaven have people marrying in it? Yes, or no?
    1
  2117. So does He love some MORE than others? And pre Flood people, medieval Jews, the kids of Ham, Esau, and others, less?
    1
  2118. And of sexual consent? How does the Old Testament define it?
    1
  2119. Oh, so we should be GRATEFUL it was VAGUE and left room for confusion, then, in later translations? It was all an OVERSIGHT? Right before assorted powerful figures got to choose what language it all even got read IN? And what of this talk of a... cure? Belatedly? Just bad luck for the executed ones?
    1
  2120. And as the Book is not always even clear why Satan's opinion mattered to God anyway...
    1
  2121. Best you sort out your disagrees, as going in circles over a book hasn't helped.
    1
  2122. And why is it? Also, was Numbers 31:17 entirely right, and consensual?
    1
  2123. There might be, might not. I'd like to know also if god ever makes Himself unhappy...
    1
  2124. Just to pass on knowledge? Although the bible can look - incomplete, on some topics?
    1
  2125. And who has conscious choice or not, in this apparent, one?
    1
  2126. So is it fully consciously chosen, or not? Therefore, was it a voluntary sin, or not? And how much of nature can Satan influence or control, anyway?
    1
  2127. And - WHY - are - these - DEMONS - loose in - the - FIRST - place?
    1
  2128. Will you NEVER answer - in detail.
    1
  2129. All that is done due to power they feasibly were GIVEN in the first place, however?
    1
  2130. Tell it to Mark O'Shiro, you smug source of comparative data?
    1
  2131. I feel the need to protect humans myself. So I would like to know whether they are needlessly in danger or not. Some feedback on the 'test' might help.
    1
  2132. May I ask how it stopped? I have no personal experience of such, but my understanding is that a desire improperly - ah, transformed, will re-emerge if repressed.
    1
  2133. Well, if it could be altered, as some claim...?
    1
  2134. That's a minor thing, in my yes, but still contributes friction. As do omissions, and dodges of issues.
    1
  2135. What exactly DID Paul mean though about how the ways of God were foolish to Natural Men? What IS a natural Man?
    1
  2136. Does Satan have partial control over nature, Horseman? Yes, or no?
    1
  2137. So, would God ever, hypothetically, make Himself unhappy; and why could Satan reach THIS world, in particular?
    1
  2138. Does he exist outside the ability for clear, consistent communication and consistency? between churches?
    1
  2139. Watch out for that nut Isaiah Bakombo, also...
    1
  2140. Plus, that He has benign goals, and is COMPETENT...
    1
  2141. Blah blah, this is a conscious rebel choice, this isn't a conscious choice, we inherit sin nature that predisposes us, some are chosen from birth, some aren't... PLEASE make up your mind which information is most CRUCIAL to this?
    1
  2142. Control the brand, maybe? The brand sells the message?
    1
  2143. But since he may have ordered Leviticus 25:46, how much should I look at uncritically?
    1
  2144.  @dickfalcon420  Can you tell me, then, what it is, you mean, by marriage? Do examples, in Judges 21, Deuteronomy 21, and Exodus 21:3-7, also count? And what of concubines, also? Or Solomon's, many wives. And also, in view of above - what is meant, by 'bad act'.
    1
  2145. Depends how stable you think heaven is, too.
    1
  2146. Mock and defy? No, they hardly think about you. You want mock and defy? Why was Heaven's security so lousy that disloyal angels could reach Earth in the first place? And why were so many angels easily tricked by a mastermind who's plan was patently absurd, predicated as it was on deposing an being said to be ALL POWERFUL? Or is it that they lacked for something, in heaven?
    1
  2147. Could easily happen given, history... Few might even notice.
    1
  2148. So many claim. Is not exactly monitored much, is it? So if it did occur, how would general populace even know. Or, of course, is just what many powerful priests can just claim happened?
    1
  2149. And what were angels designed for? What made 1/3rd of them suddenly ignorant, delusional or suicidal? Or was heaven incomplete, somehow? And why do exiles get to keep many powers?
    1
  2150. More that you wish them to be something else, I suppose? That's relateable. I wish Jehovah wasn't a bipolar jealous asshat...
    1
  2151.  @JJ_Jordan0  I'm saying they didn't seem too troubled to figure out how to 'HELP' any of them, until VERY recently, that is. And if not then, then I suppose was God himself who was not in a huge rush...
    1
  2152.  @JJ_Jordan0  How to help gay people, I mean. It did not sound like a priority within Christendom until like a few decades ago, even.
    1
  2153. Yes, it does somewhat bring up the topic of duress - even if just a 'little'...
    1
  2154. Without their consent?
    1
  2155.  Tan Tan  And were they your chosen desires? Or ones implanted by Satan? So not fully willed?
    1
  2156. They say male and female were one of the original creative principles (mind you, even the Mystery Schools said that) I'm not sure reincarnation could fully explain it either - or hormones?
    1
  2157. Facts - statistically, no more than a small fraction of humans seem to participate in it within a population sample. Assertion - nature is partly under the control of rogue spiritual agents. Natural correlating question - is why?
    1
  2158.  Tan Tan  So, how much of Adam's or other's natures were OR were not altered, corrupted or partially controlled, before his birth, by Satan, or not?
    1
  2159. And what experience do you have as to whether people experience only lust or not? I may have given a prior example...
    1
  2160. Compared with impulsive anger from Elohim type beings? Maybe...
    1
  2161. How come there's always another fracturing going on? Not cooking goats in a mother's milk is super clear, but slavery, treatment of women and what kinds of sexuality there are is super mysterious and interpretable? Or whether Nero was the antichrist?
    1
  2162.  isoll cg  Define what a sin is. Define what a conscious vs unconscious one, is, too. And why any angel would ever WANT to do one, for extra credit, if possible.
    1
  2163. And why can demons set foot upon Earth? Did God wish them to?
    1
  2164. Michael's, so, ah, good at the nuances, eh?
    1
  2165. Sounds decent. Might help resolve some long running ambiguities (and omissions) in scriptural claims...
    1
  2166. Can you BACK UP why any of the morality I described above was authored so, then, Vitaz?
    1
  2167. Also, Vitaz, are you purporting to be like Paul, the 'runt of the litter' in that last comment?
    1
  2168. Back to the Golden Rule, yes, and the code of Hammurabi. Some of the actual motivations may have varied, I suppose. But it's not like we see more than a narrow part of the world, in the OT, either, is it?
    1
  2169. And for any gaps in it, sam?
    1
  2170. Did He love Midianites? Canaanites? Eibomites? What about those subject to Nephilim? Or Jews in Medieval Europe?
    1
  2171. I can respect that. Although, it strikes me, the simplest way is to get people of divided ideas and uncertain views within Christianity to just speak to God, together, and He be willing to converse, with several, at a time? Just a sort of out there, suggestion?
    1
  2172.  @stephaniaduran9677  And did Eve REDUCE ALTER or impair free will, by her actions, and via an INHERITED curse, or not? And sure, give angels free will, but there is STILL NO CLEAR reason why ANY WOULD CHOOSE to rebel against God, if they were in His direct Presence, or to EVER expect Satan to WIN a revolt. And exiling them whilst letting them KEEP any powers or access THIS world, where after the Fall, we could not see God, OR them, in their various disguises, would also potentially disrupt free will, would it not? Also, what is a 'natural man' ala 1 Corinthians 2:14, exactly? And are such born more spiritually impaired, than others?
    1
  2173.  Tan Tan  Well, in principle, is it possible for you BOTH to talk to God, at the same time, and receive some direct clarification? That could also help many divided denominations, later, on too...?
    1
  2174. Do tell the Gospel WITHOUT OMISSION then?
    1
  2175.  10 LMS  Well, shall we agree it at least has omissions in it? for instance, how much of nature can Satan potentially alter or corrupt or not? And why did he keep any powers, post exile, or be owed any access to Eden?
    1
  2176. Can we help it if God did not enable quality control to PREVENT schisming?
    1
  2177. And in any of that, can you ask why the Test is necessary? If God was surprised by angels in his presence rebelling, what would he learn from humans who can't see Him?
    1
  2178. Why don't you compare notes? Then you might able to better define which of your experiences was, ah, genuine?
    1
  2179. The world never threatened stoning to me. Try to remember the Roman Empire is dead, now?
    1
  2180. Still need to hear exactly why salvation was needed at all, and how jeopardy came to be...
    1
  2181.  @therealdio314  And have you, fulfilled, John 14:12-13, and Matthew 17:20 - meantime?
    1
  2182.  @therealdio314  In what way, then? And what does 'these things and greater than I' mean, to you? We can simply focus on, 'equal', rather than 'greater', if needed, for now.
    1
  2183. Perhaps because He can be a tricky concept to define? As well as whether He ever makes Himself unhappy?
    1
  2184.    Reality calling - the story isn't FINISHED. You've rarely explained why a God would deliberately make themselves unhappy or not - such as to drown most humans knowing far in advance they would do so? And how free will works with inherited curses? And two ignorant chosers in a Garden?
    1
  2185.  @jacksongreythelatterdaysai916  So what has that got to do with giving so much choice to TWO ignorant people that IMPAIRED and altered and redefined all human choice and awareness after them? And this was all to indulge the 'free will' of deranged, suicidal rebel angels, who did not really HAVE much of a right to be on this world, that they wished to harm? And DO all get equal such choice or chance of such a choice or comprehending the choice - from birth? 'Natural men' of 1 Corinthians included?
    1
  2186.  @jacksongreythelatterdaysai916  The teaching has to be credible and self consistent, naturally? And crucially, perhaps NOT SPLIT up into maybe a dozen, maybe 400 differing interpretations or translations? See, for instance, how much difference can come from two varying translations of 1 Corinthians 2:14? One using the word 'natural man' and the other 'those men without the Spirit'? They thereby end up with VERY different interpretations, for some. And for all those born into OTHER religions, that may or may not be demonic traps or not - well, so much of that is down solely to geography and upbringing, and parentage. And they are so familiar with it that they may see no reason to trust you or others that come to convert them? After all, things did not go so smoothly with Jews, did they? And even ended bloodily, in Spain, later.
    1
  2187. And why are there other possible omissions in it? Also, why could slaves EVER be bequeathed to relatives?
    1
  2188.  @faiyettes  Yet many did sadly die for this misinterpretation, later on. So was there ways to correct it, first? And what is religion for? Including both it's exoteric and esoteric parts? It's milk, and it's meat?
    1
  2189. Can he at least have had God speaking to him, without it? (all the time)
    1
  2190. Do you ask if they were ever tempted? Or does the 'pride of the eye' verse come up?
    1
  2191. So, did He love Esau less? Or Middianites?
    1
  2192. How so? And why did Jesus owe Satan anything? To who is the ransom paid, also...
    1
  2193. So, did Paul also love so called 'carnal minds' or the vaguely defined 'natural man'?
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  2194. I do not think it is off topic. It is about free will, how it works, and what Satan was or was not owed, in relation to humans, at all. Including influencing any of them, and nature.
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  2195. Also, define Logos, Alpha?
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  2196. And which God does it epitomise? God of Sermon the on Mount, or other ones?
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  2197. And what was Torquemada, by comparison? Also, your view on Catholics - even born as such - do they count?
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  2198. And why is ANY SOUL at risk? Satan was owed any access to humans, because...? And to keep ANY powers, of his, because...?
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  2199. And what of Corinthians 2:14? Who CHOOSES to be born a 'natural man', or not?
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  2200. Sorry, no - context is not complete. And what of inherited curses? What has that to do with free will, at all?
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  2201. 1 Corinthians, 2:14....
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  2202. Something odd may have happened with hormones and cortisol (or, if one prefers, the mechanics of reincarnation)
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  2203.  @saiyanduo643  Just look up stories about people being tied to cow fences, in USA, later on, if you would...? And not so long ago, either...
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  2204.  @treykennedy8897  Yes, so He changed his mind. And as the Flood did NOT eradicate all evil, seems things may have not fully gone to plan? Though why ANY of all that occurred seems also tied perhaps to why disloyal angels got to keep ANY powers or have any access to this world, as well as all the responsibilities Adam and Eve were given, but little knowledge of the stakes involved in that very role...?
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  2205.  @treykennedy8897  Yes, and one buried since then rather well, huh? But it makes claims of omniscience kind of nonsense, though. And is that what Satan offered angels that suddenly made them dissatisfied? Flesh? And I currently cannot see 1 Corinthians 2:14 or 2 Chronicles 2:19 as a very widened path, unfortunately. Plus, far too broad in their claims.
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  2206. And WHY was that uprising POSSIBLE? What made so many WANT to uprise, or failed to dissuade them?
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  2207. Well, did someone take their eye off the ball? Not understand how natured worked? Allowed fallen angels onto Earth...
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