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Bill Sugg
Ryan Chapman
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Comments by "Bill Sugg" (@billsugg9564) on "Ryan Chapman" channel.

Dude! I’ve watched a lot of videos about the history and relationship between the two countries...a lot (and have lived in both). This is probably the most well balanced, non-emotional , non-partisan, fact-based explanation of the issue. Once again, you prove to have a level head and no agenda other than dissemination of the facts. Thank you, sir. We need more tubers like you out there.
432
Another well balanced, well researched video, sir. You obviously worked very hard to elaborate on subject in response to comments that were perhaps not originally made in good faith. I admire your attention to detail and your respect for hard definitions.
8
@malaysiaterdedah3934 trying to reclaim former glories has been the stated purpose of the CCP for a long time. There is nothing strange or unique to that approach; many countries have used that approach. And there is totally such a thing as a Taiwanese language. It developed from a FuJian dialect and has become its own thing in Taiwan. I know several people who speak it.
7
@clarkl7027 Taiwan’s official name is the Republic of China which is not the same as the People’s Republic of China. The two countries couldn’t be more different these days.
6
@clarkl7027 that is a simple answer...and ultimately incorrect. The UN does not recognize R.O.C. as the legitimate ruler of China as I once did because America changed her stance on the subject for economic gain with the P.R.O.C.. ChiangKai Shek, on his deathbed, would not allow Taiwan to be considered its own country and still clung to idea that the R.O.C. would one day rule the Middle Kingdom again. That dream, of course, died with him. Very few people in Taiwan still think China is or should be “Western Taiwan”. That’s an old idea. Now, however, the country once know as Formosa then Taiwan is not ruled by the R.O.C. (though it still keeps that as its official name) or the K.M.T. (which is basically the R.O.C.). It is a vibrant, liberal democracy with a strong economy and lots to offer the world. I suggest you visit or live there if you haven’t already. It truly is a wonderful country.
6
@yimataia1629 according to the Taiwanese whom have lived in FuJian, China, the locals there have trouble understanding the Taiwanese dialect and likewise the Taiwanese people have trouble understanding the FuJian dialect even though these dialects are related. This underlines my point that the two dialects have diverged greatly. This is not unusual in linguistics; we see this many times in history across many different language families. You are right, however, that these are all dialects and that the main language (really just one of many) is Mandarin, which most people call “Chinese”. And while Mandarin is certainly the major language of China, Taiwan, etc., one could argue that it’s just the most popular dialect. A truly fascinating place, Asia.
5
@clarkl7027 a war would be very sad indeed, devastating even. That’s why the CCP needs to back off and let Taiwan be Taiwan. It’s clear that the Taiwanese don’t want to be the next Hong Kong or the next Ukraine. I’ve lived in or been to some of those cities as well (not GuangZhuo) and I find the subtle differences between the people (not just the government) quite jarring. And religion? It’s a bigger part of daily life in Taiwan because they never went through the social revolution. How’d you like Taibei? Did you visit elsewhere in the country?
5
@clarkl7027 , actually the island nation is currently a democratic one. The ROC doesn’t rule anything any more...it’s just the official name of the country. It’s a two party system (the PROC is a one party system) and the current ruling party is DPP or Democratic People’s Party, not KMT which was once the sole ruler of Taiwan and China. It’s confusing I know. But you you are right that Taiwan’s constitution is unchanged since the days it was ruled by the nationalist party, the KMT. At that time, their goal was to retake the mainland and expel the communists. That didn’t go as planned. So, now Taiwan democratized and became the paradise it is today. Here again, I invite to visit or live in Formosa.
4
@miloozie except that most people in FuJian (who speak the local dialect) cannot understand the Taiwanese dialect. It has changed that much.
3
@clarkl7027 you are nearly correct except the idea of one country. They certainly are two separate governments and the Civil War never really ended, but one country? It depends on your definition of “country”. It is usually defined by a land mass or area of land whose people are uniformly governed by a single administrative body.
3
@clarkl7027 you left out whole chunks of Taiwan’s history (like a lot). Did you watch the video we are commenting under. Mr. Chapman does an excellent job of describing the situation and laying out an unbiased history. You should check it out.
3
@clarkl7027 very nice! And indeed more detailed than Ryan’s video, but then again, his video wasn’t strictly about Taiwan’s history. His point, I believe, was that, from Taiwan’s perspective, they have endured colonial rule for centuries. Even the KMT with their ROC institutions seemed foreign to the local Taiwanese. I think we can agree on that.
3
@clarkl7027 only those that came over with ChiangKaiShek. The locals already living there would not. To them, perhaps, even the KMT were outsiders.
3
@clarkl7027 , so your argument is that if Taiwan’s official name is the Republic of China (and vestigial remnant of the past) and her people speak Mandarin (but they also speak Taiwanese), eat like Chinese people (not entirely, no), think like Chinese (which clearly isn’t the case given that Taiwan never suffered through Mao’s Cultural Revolution), then they are, in fact, Chinese? Is that your point? It certainly seems to be. This is why I think your point of view is erroneous: Putting aside the fact that you are completely ignoring the island’s native population, known in Taiwan as the RenJuMin, who were there looooong before China was even a thing, you don’t seem to recognize how nation states are formed over time and how cultures diverge and evolve. It is a beautiful process we are seeing that transcends despotic claims of jingoistic glory. Taiwan has never once been ruled by the Chinese Communist Party nor the People’s Republic of China. That is an indisputable fact.
3
@clarkl7027 Texas? Really? C’mon man, I don’t even even where to start correcting you on that. Scotland? Do you not remember the referendum from several years ago? Catalonia? Yeah, Spain is being as heavy handed with them as China is to Taiwan except Spain can actually exert legal pressure on Barcelona because Catalonia is actually, legally, part of Spain, whereas Taiwan, as you know, is not actually part of the PROC.
3
@clarkl7027 yes, the Taiwanese are culturally Chinese (similar to some Singaporeans). In many cases the Taiwanese are more Chinese than the Chinese because, yet again, they did not go through Mao’s Cultural Revolution which destroyed a lot of temples, religions, and even the written language. The cuisines are similar of course, because as you’ve stated, they originated on the mainland, but have morphed and modulated as these things tend to do. So, culturally, Taiwanese are Chinese (more Chinese than China in some cases). The term in Mandarin is “Hua Ren”. Taiwan is not now nor never has been part of the PROC. Fact.
3
@clarkl7027 ah ha! If you admit that Taiwan is not part of the PROC, then they cannot rationally be considered part of China seems China is controlled by the CCP...unless you are saying there two Chinas. Is that what you are saying?
3
@clarkl7027 well, it wouldn’t be a “reunification” because, by your own words and historical research, the PROC and ROC were never together. One could that Taiwan (as a land mass) would be reunified, but sense you’ve already said that there is no Taiwan then that impossible by your reasoning. You still have yet to define what you think a country is, by the way. And let’s face it, it probably won’t be a peaceful unification if the CCP is still charge. Those guys are brutal.
3
@clarkl7027 because your (and I realize that it isn’t just yours) reasoning sounds a little like a man from 1930’s Germany who insisted that Austria was Germany’s because they spoke German and ate Schnitzel or whatever. Not a one-to-one comparison but the justification is the same. China, as a land mass, is controlled by the CCP who never, not even for one second, ever controlled the island now known as Taiwan. If they were to take the island it would not be reunification, because clearly that government (the PROC) never ruled the island...ever. Let me ask you question however, if the government of Taiwan were some how to miraculously take the land mass known as China, thereby dismantling and defeating the PROC and the CCP, would that be reunification in your eyes?
3
@clarkl7027 , excellent question. I believe the answer would, like now, depend on whom you asked. Essentially though, the CSA seceded from the Union to form its own country which is what the war was basically about from the Northern side. Here again the question of what exactly is a country is both a philosophical one as well as a legal one. A very interesting and confusing topic no doubt.
2
@clarkl7027 That’s certainly one way to look at it, but here again, it all depends on how you define a “country”. I must admit that saying “There are two Chinas.”, which what you seem to be saying, is closer to reality than saying “There is one China and the PROC is it.” At least we agree that the two entities are separate and, in my opinion, should probably stay that way as long as the CCP controls the main land.
2
@clarkl7027 No, you totally tried a gotcha moment with that East/West Germany distraction, but at least you’re being honest and fair with your definitions. Taiwan was once part of China (as well as many other nations) but now, since China is controlled by the CCP a.k.a. the PROC; and since they have never, not once, controlled the island, it’s hard to claim Taiwan as part of China. The China Taiwan was part of doesn’t exist anymore. Not to mention that so much has changed on the island. They are not ruled by the ROC anymore, it’s just their official name. The ROC was a nationalist party who basically ceded the nation of Taiwan to itself when they went democratic. A staggering and increasing number of Taiwanese identify exclusively as Taiwanese and fewer and fewer identify as exclusively Chinese. The Taiwanese won’t no part of what the PROC has to offer which would undoubtedly be subjugation, surveillance, and possibly genocide. For the sake of argument, let’s say you are right and Taiwan is still part of China, well, then they are the better part; that’s for sure. They have preserved ancient traditions and religious practices that modern day, CCP-controlled China doesn’t have. Reunification as a term that would only apply if Taiwan takes the mainland (which may never happen sadly). If the PROC takes Taiwan (a disaster for sure), it would be “unification” at best an “invasion” at worst. I appreciate your position, but I respectfully disagree. You may be technically correct but in every other sense (as I have demonstrated), Taiwan is its own country and could only counted as part of China if China weren’t ruled by the CCP. The two governments could not be more different.
2
@clarkl7027 I lived in (not visited) ShangHai from 2017-2020. There was a subtle yet unmistakable oddness to the air there. The stain of authoritarianism blackened the culture and the collective souls of the people in a way that ever present and oppressive. By comparison, Taiwan enjoys freedoms of all kinds and is even more free than America in many respects.
2
@clarkl7027 this is a long thread, so you may have missed it, but I have made several references to Mandarin words and terms as well as mentioning what locals of both Taiwan and China have told me. So, yes, I can speak Mandarin. I can even write and read a little bit, but this skill wasn’t as useful in China because they use simplified characters because Mao eradicated the old ways of writing (for better or for worse) like he did so much of traditional Chinese culture. It was one of the many sins the CCP have perpetrated on the Chinese people. Luckily traditional Mandarin survives in Taiwan as does much of traditional Chinese culture. It is a bright and vibrant place where someone who truly loves traditional Chinese culture should visit. Oh, by the way, that despondent malaise I was referring to might exist in other cities (I alluded to that possibility my last post as well...in case you over looked that too), but not in Taibei, Taizhong, Kaohsiung by the way. Those cities are in the country of Taiwan funny enough. However, I think that atmosphere is unique to China (not just ShangHai); I blame the cultural revolution.
2
@yimataia1629 I’m trying to help you get to the bottom of your issue with YouTube by identifying it. You were being rude and insulting the past, so I suggested maybe that’s the issue, and all you do is return with the same demeaning, rude, and insulting language. You clearly aren’t interested in a reciprocal or constructive conversation which is a shame because you had an attentive listener in me. You chose the wrong path.
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@yimataia1629 sure, but the next time you start to be insulting, we’re done.
2
@medeliworld well, the reality is that a vast, vast majority of Taiwanese citizens identify as Taiwanese exclusively (something like 70-80% I believe). This stat was stated in Mr. Chapman’s video if I’m not mistaken and with a fact like that, the wish of a billion plus Chinese citizens is effectively irrelevant when it comes to what the Taiwanese want and feel. Migrated? Some maybe, but China does not allow for dual citizenship, so these millions of Taiwanese you speak of might live and work there, but I’m sure a large majority retain their Taiwanese citizenship. I don’t think any Taiwanese citizen who watches the news would accept the “one country, two systems” model after what happened to Hong Kong.
2
@Twodime4032 I see what you are saying, but you must understand that loose and amorphic values are no basis on which to stake a claim on a sovereign country like Taiwan. One can say that “Chinese” is a language, cuisine, culture, and so much more that expands beyond the invisible lines of a territory but China as a country does not extend over the Taiwan strait.
2
@DESERTCB1 it was. He brings a similar level of research and bi-partisanism to all of his videos.
2
@hengzi-cartoon that’s close to the truth, but you have to understand that it’s hard to claim legality when the civil war basically never ended.
2
Ryan, thank you for using the word “unification” instead of “reunification” which is often used erroneously.
2
Another great, well- researched, non-colored, informative effort!
1
@clarkl7027 which China?
1
@clarkl7027 this sounds like Germany circa the 1930’s.
1
@clarkl7027 I didn’t say 1990, did I? I said 1930s.
1
@clarkl7027 ...so in case you missed it the first time, I was not talking about cold world era Germany. If you go back and read what said originally, as well as my later reiteration, you will see that I clearly stated that your justifications and definitions sound like 1930’s Germany.
1
@clarkl7027 Your question was a bit off topic and, if we’re being honest, a bit devious as well. You’ve been an excellent debate partner up until that point. However, if you continue to pursue “gotcha” moments rather than honest debate, I’m afraid I have nothing more to say to you. Not once did I bring up Cold War Germany. You still have yet define what a country is. I have and Taiwan meets all those requirements and more. Also, you cannot refute the fact that the CCP has never, not once, had any control over the island of Taiwan. Nor have you answered my on-topic question about whether or not Taiwan taking over the mainland (unlikely though it may be) would be considered reunification in your mind. You are an good debater and have done your research, but please, if we are to continue this line of dialogue, please refrain from deception and distractions and do stay on topic. Thank you.
1
@clarkl7027 the DPP is just a political party, like the KMT. The KMT, not the DPP, controls most of the media by the way. Taiwan is a two party system unlike the PROC which has only the CCP and if you wanna talk about brainwashing, media control, and transforming (some would say “corrupting”) the Chinese identity, look no further than the Chinese Communist Party. This is evidenced by the fact that, in mainland China, one can have only one public opinion and that opinion must agree with the CCP. Also, most of what was one Chinese was destroyed by Mao. You know I’m right about that. It is an authoritarian state.
1
@clarkl7027 they would be Taiwanese news programs, not “Chinese”, unless you mean the language not the country. Most folks in Taiwan (that I’ve talked to) seem to believe the news in Taiwan skews blue. I generally go with how the locals feel. This may not be the most accurate way to take the pulse, but I’m more interested in the common man.
1
@clarkl7027 most regular folk I encountered in ShangHai had a certain despondency about them, as if they carried a great, invisible weight. You may or may not be familiar with the term “Guo Ri Zi” which means something like “just get through the day”. They seemed just motivated enough to do the task in front of them and took little interest much else. Many just wanted to keep their heads down and not get in trouble. Now, obviously that sort of malaise might be found in many cities and obviously this doesn’t describe everyone I met. There are some amazing people in ShangHai and some true salt-of-the-Earth folks with a bright spot on their souls where most folks have only darkness. Know what I mean? But in general, their was a stifling atmosphere of oppression all around us. Taiwanese on the other hand will go out of their way to help or at least go above and beyond the call of duty. They are a nice, sincere people with a government that takes care of them (for the most part).
1
@clarkl7027 I did and they it means “live day by day”...more or less what I said, but way of from what your friends told you.
1
@clarkl7027 you’re right the phrase itself is neutral, but adding all those extra words adds syntax.
1
@clarkl7027 some, not all...I said as much. You may recall me mentioning the salt-of-the-earth folks who were kind, generous, and genuine. ShangHai certainly is more international, I’ll give you that. It’s a busy and vibrant place. My comments were aimed more at the despondent malaise you see in the corners of society (if one is sensitive and aware enough to look) which I attributed to the loss of culture and constant surveillance by the CCP, but maybe I’m wrong. Taibei housing prices are indeed ridiculous, but at least you can own the property (not just the physical house), unlike China. I have always found the Taiwanese (Taibei or elsewhere in the country) to be extremely open, trusting, and generous. In ShangHai? Not so much, much to the opposite in fact, but that is probably a major metropolis thing like New York or San Francisco (Taibei, Taiwan being the exception of course).
1
@yimataia1629 they are completely different, but there are enough variations from city to city or country to country that each speaker can get about 70-80% of what the other is saying.
1
@yimataia1629 I’m not sure where your point of argument is. I said, based on what I’ve heard, the difference is about 20-30%...meaning Taiwanese speakers can understand FuJian dialect speakers 70-80% of the time and vice versa. That seems to agree with your opinion, does it not? Some Taiwanese have told me there is little to no similarities between the two dialects, but I’m not sure about that. As time goes on and the two countries continue to develop along two different trajectories, it will, but for now they are quite similar. I’m not sure why you cannot share links either, but that’s probably a protective precaution on the part of YouTube. Wikipedia has a misinformation problem occasionally, so for some issues , I prefer my milk straight from the cow...so to speak. Nice talking with you.
1
@yimataia1629 culturally Chinese, yes, but only culturally . And yes, Western media has a bias, but not nearly in the way you think. They could be harsher. And as far as being cheated goes, I cannot say. I’ve heard from many sources that they 70-80% similar...which is what I have recently related in my post.
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@yimataia1629 yes, these are terrible things for sure.
1
@yimataia1629 “cheated” may not be the right word, “mislead” perhaps, but I don’t think was cheated. And as for a topic? Dealers choice; You write and I’ll read...without repudiating or responding.
1
@yimataia1629 wow. No need to be rude, my friend. I would be giving you exactly what you want; an attentive, respectful audience who would read and reflect on whatever you wrote with out simply responding just to rebuke your opinions (though I might have asked for clarifications and sources). Isn’t that what you just asked for? I have already proved that, when presented with new evidence, I am willing to change my tune to reflect to new evidence. Can you honestly say that you would do the same? Or is this just a game of flags with an “arrogant foreigner” to you? If so, your jingoism is showing. And no, I may have been mislead, but I don’t feel cheated.
1
@yimataia1629 ...and try not to be so insulting and rude.
1
@yimataia1629 hmm. I’m not sure what the problem is. Were you being polite? Factual? Not sure if those were the issues. I’m just spitballing here.
1
@yimataia1629 I’m not sure.
1
@yimataia1629 I don’t know what to tell you; YouTube has been cracking down on misinformation and hate speech and the like. I’m not saying your words fall into those categories, but you might want to double and triple check your sources. For example: Asian Boss, for all their talk of bipartisanship, has been caught planting interviewees and shaping the narrative they want. And it might help to be polite and not insulting like you were before.
1
@yimataia1629 ...so you’re not even going to acknowledge your own behavior huh? Ok. To answer your question; China is huge, truly a massive country (as you are no doubt aware of) and the SCS has only begun to roll out in certain cities and only to certain extents thus far. As time progresses more and more people will be aware of it (as many already are...according the Asian Boss video) and affected by it. I hope that answers your question. On a personal note. I do not appreciate your previous comments and do not feel you have entered into this discussion in good faith. If you persist with rude, demeaning, or disrespectful behavior, I no longer wish to engage in a non-reciprocal conversation with you (or anyone who acts like you). Thank you.
1
@yimataia1629 you really don’t remember what you said that could be considered insulting, demeaning, or rude? I can understand that it is difficult to admit when one is wrong, especially when that one is proud, but humility and sincerity are how we improve as individuals.
1
@yimataia1629 , no. I have exhibited the ability to change my opinion when faced with new evidence. I have shown a willingness to listen to your point and given you the floor. The only thing I know for sure is that I don’t know everything. These are the antithesis of arrogant. Have you shown a willingness to engage me as a person? Or do you simply see me as a faceless construct of your imagined enemy? Or an engine of endless slights? Your continued insults and rudeness would seem to suggest that you aren’t here for a conversation among equals and that you simply see me as some western boogie man. Are you prepared to admit you were being rude and insulting and probably never interested in an actual, reciprocal debate?
1
@yimataia1629 there it is right there. Thank you.
1
@yimataia1629 maybe. I wouldn’t know. I don’t watch western media much.
1
@medeliworld did you watch the video you are commenting under? I noticed that you have participated in other threads as well, but did you watch this well made and no biased video? The number of Taiwanese citizens identifying exclusively as Taiwanese is huge and grows every year the island nation remains free of PROC rule. I’m not sure why you brought up the Chinese treasures, but they weren’t stolen and it wasn’t the Taiwanese government who did it. Please check the history books and see that it was the GuoMingDang nationalists who fled China to Formosa with the treasures because for all of their faults as rulers the KMT loved and cherished traditional Chinese culture and art. What guarantee do the Taiwanese people have that they won’t be oppressed like Hong Kong? Hainan is part of PROC China. Taiwan is not part of the PROC and never has been. These are false comparisons. You are right that many Taiwanese citizens live, work, and have a life in China. They do need China and have a friendly opinion of that country, but many of them still consider the two places separate. Taiwan is not a monolith; there are many different views on many different topics. It is a wonderful place with a vibrant democracy and a progressive government.
1
@medeliworld well, they already are independent (defacto if not in actual fact) and the argument could be made that those treasures are a part of their history as much as it is the PROC. You have to remember that those items were saved from the communists. Otherwise, they might have been destroyed by Mao in his cultural revolution which destroyed tons of traditional Chinese artifacts, literature, and landmarks. Good question though. You’re right that it would be hard to survive without the Chinese market but lots of other sovereign countries like Taiwan trade and do business with China. Therefore, as long as the CCP isn’t too belligerent, a peaceful economic coexistence is possible. One must also remember that China is still heavily dependent on Western markets; heavily. We are all connected in this world of international economy. Please tell when in history the island once known as Formosa was ACTUALLY used as a base from which to invade the mainland. Are you saying that 1.4 million Chinese citizens are afraid of Taiwan? Wow; that’s amazing. I’ve never heard that before.
1
@medeliworld yes, that’s more or less what the constitution says. But you have to remember, that was the old dream of a dead faction. The ROC that wrote that and wanted to retake the mainland from the PROC doesn’t exist anymore. Taiwan successfully democratized in the 80’s and today enjoys freedoms unseen in many parts of the world, including mainland China. Taiwan is effectively independent. The PROC and CCP have no sway on the island whatsoever. I think you can recognize that at least. Those treasures which I recommend you see are indeed part of China’s history, but China’s history is part of Taiwan’s history (but only a part). Who truly owns them? That’s an open discussion. I don’t know why you brought it up in this thread. It really has no place here. Mao destroyed temples (its on film) and erased some the ancient language which still exists in Taiwan and HongKong because those places thankfully never witnessed the atrocities of the Cultural Revolution. That’s sad fact for anyone who truly loves traditional Chinese culture. I haven’t forgotten about the century of humiliation. Neither has the CCP. If you watched the video (I’m not sure that you did), you see Ryan Chapman explains that this is a big reason why the PROC is so keen to take Taiwan. It once belonged to an ancient empire (not the PROC’s though) which would be like Rome trying to reclaim Italy. Japan annexed Taiwan, yes. But did they ever actually use the island to invade? You said Taiwan has been used to invade China. It might be good place to do so from, but it never to my knowledge has been used in that fashion. Medeli World, I appreciate your point of view, but the facts simply do not support it. I would recommend that you watch this video before you start commenting on my thread and others on this video (which I have seen you do). Also, should you find yourself able to do so, I strongly recommend you visit Taiwan. It is a lovely country; one of the best.
1
@medeliworld there is no need for name calling. If you can’t make your arguments without insults, we are done here. Please remember to be polite, kind, and respectful, otherwise your points are invalid. When you say “support from China”, what exactly do you mean? The PROC pays no money to Taiwan that I am aware of; no taxes, no international aid, nothing. There may, however, be proceeds reaped from economic interactions, but if you are calling this “support”, then Taiwan also receives support from Japan, the U.S., Indonesia, Vietnam, and on and on. According to that definition, China would receive massive support from the USA, NATO, and the like. Taiwan is independent of PROC controlled China. The CCP is the only political party (with any power) in China and they have not for one second controlled the island of Taiwan. These facts are indisputable. You are right that the owner of those treasures is not an open question. Who they belong to is. You have already stated who owns them. Have a good day and please remember to be respectful. Thank you.
1
@medeliworld I’m not sure how you think China gives Taiwan any preferential treatment, unless you mean continued acts of aggression, intimidation, and instigation; via the consistent flybys in Taiwan’s sovereign ADIZ. They certainly don’t do that to anyone else. Thank you for conceding the point of Taiwan’s ownership to the facts; you do seem capable of recognizing historic fact at times. That says something good about you. By admitting the fact that CCP has never not for one second has ever controlled Taiwan or had any administrational influence over the island nation, you are, perhaps inadvertently, admitting that Taiwan is independent (defacto if nothing else). It takes a fairly big man to admit when his opponent is right about something without making it a back-handed concession.
1
@medeliworld right, ROC...not PROC.
1
@ruifenghuang1029 I think you might right about some of that.
1
@medeliworld except, as you have already stated, Taiwan has not accepted that yet (though you think they will eventually; I’m fairly certain they will not). It’s like you are arguing with what you said before.
1
@medeliworld well, the status quo, meaning the way things are now, is a separate and effectively independent Taiwan. A vast majority of Taiwanese citizens are fine with the status quo. My prediction is based on current trends. I believe you have already acknowledged the fact that an ever increasing number of Taiwanese citizens consider themselves exclusively Taiwanese. This will continue for the next century and beyond if the PLA and PROC continue to be belligerent and rude to their smaller, sovereign, neighbor. The Chinese nationals living in Taiwan cannot vote. Plus you can’t assume each Taiwanese citizen in China would vote in favor of China; some but certainly not all. China is a good place for some Taiwanese to make money, but most realize they are lucky to be from Taiwan; which, as you have also acknowledged, is one of the best countries in the world.
1
@medeliworld perhaps you didn’t agree that more and more and more Taiwanese are identifying themselves as exclusively Taiwanese, but that fact was stated in the video you are commenting under. Did you watch the video yet or are you here just to debate with people? Just wondering. If a Taiwanese citizen looses privileges for voting against China, then it isn’t exactly their decision is it? Besides, how would China even know how a certain Taiwanese citizen votes? The PROC has no jurisdiction in Taiwan; none. You know that I think. I must say you have been more respectful lately and made some good points recently and I thank you for that. However, your stalwartly jingoistic views are blinding you from the facts. So much so that you have agreed with me a few times without even noticing it. For example: you admit that Taiwan is a separate system but, by your reckoning not independent, yet you repeatedly use the words “reunite” or “reclaim” and, while those words are erroneous in this context, they betray your true belief. After all, how can something reunite or be reclaimed if they aren’t already separate. Plus, you keep referencing the 1.4 billion Chinese citizens as separate from the 23 million Taiwanese. You already know the truth sir; a vast majority of the world’s citizens do as well. Once again, thank you for not continuing to be insulting and rude. It speaks volumes. I look forward to your rebuttal, sir.
1
@medeliworld identifying as exclusively Taiwanese and not Chinese (which a staggering number of Taiwanese citizens are doing) is not the same as wanting independence. They already are in their mind, which is what I’m trying to say to you. A 90% majority of Taiwanese citizens (which is not the same as Chinese citizens) are fine with the status quo; it has done wonders for their wonderful country. So, you are somewhat right, but, like I said, your stalwart jingoism is blinding you to the whole picture.
1
@medeliworld separate systems. Separate governments. Separate populations. Separate land masses. Separate written languages. Separate political and spiritual values. Separate histories after 1949. Separate mind sets. Separate currencies. Separates health care systems(Taiwan’s is one of the best in the world, way better than China’s). Separate police forces. Separate militaries. Separate judicial systems. Separate prisons. Separate tax systems. Similar culinary traditions. Same spoken language (though China has way more dialects) Same culture up to a point (in many ways the Taiwanese do a better job of preserving traditional Chinese culture) How do you like them cherries?
1
@medeliworld that number comes from polls done in Taiwan. Look it up if you don’t believe me.
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@medeliworld yes, until recently. Now, Hong Kong and the CCP’s China are nearly indistinguishable. And don’t think it escaped my notice that you didn’t refute those differences. It’s hard.
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@medeliworld you are the one who said Taiwan and HongKong are the same in their relation to China, not me. Please stop projecting. I am keeping the discussion (on my end at least) as close to the original topic as I can, despite your continual distractionary tactics (i.e. lost treasures, Hong Kong, the desires of Taiwanese business people, etc.). I try not to speak about things I know little about; I’ve never been to Hong Kong. Have you ever been to the wonderful island nation of Taiwan? Also, where are you getting the idea of what 1.4 million Chinese want if not from a poll? At least you are acknowledging there is a poll and that I brought evidence to substantiate my claim.
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@medeliworld I’m aware of the polls, but just said polls are unreliable. You also said that my description of the differences between the countries Taiwan and China (which are numerous) “looks like Hong Kong”. Your words.
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@medeliworld so, if China and Taiwan were one country (which clearly they aren’t, but you seem to think so) then the south Eastern border would be secure, would it not? Yet, here you are trying to justify the taking of Taiwan by China for the first time ever. How can they take something they supposedly already own? Now is the time to practice what you preach and use some common sense, then you will come around to the truth.
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@medeliworld what exactly are saying is a stupid argument? Please be specific as this is a long, but engaging and interesting, thread. And just to be clear, in a debate, calling the other person names or callously naming his arguments as “stupid” is not only counterproductive but also dismissive and rude. You can be a better debate partner, I know. So now you say that the reason China wants to take (not “retake”) Taiwan is national security but didn’t you once say that they wanted the island because of the Century of Humiliation? No need to answer that; it can be both, but I am curious to hear which reason you personally think is more important or pressing. This answer could be very illuminating for the both of us. I can answer your history questions if you like, but you should probably have done your research first. Japan owned the island prior to 1950 which they annexed by beating the Qing Dynasty elsewhere in China (the Sino/Japanese was not fought on Formosa). Before that that, the Qing Dynasty owned Formosa (its name at the time) and ruled it longer than anyone else; more than two hundred years I believe. Before that the Dutch and the Portuguese and before that it was sparely settled by mainland Chinese (I forget the Dynasty at the time but they made no claim of ownership). And let’s not forget the diasporas of native peoples. They called the island we now call Taiwan for generations.
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@medeliworld yes, some media does it, CCP spokespeople do it, which probably why you are doing it. That does not make it right. You and I are not aspects of some media mouth piece with an agenda. We are people in a debate and in civilized debates, we try to address the argument with respect and never attack the debater like you have repeatedly done. It is basically an admission of defeat. Likewise, simply saying that the opposing argument is “stupid” or “delusional” is not an argument. Once one starts to slide into these type tactics (as you have on occasion) it’s a sign that they either don’t have a good counter argument or are not interested in reciprocal, honest debate. In your case, please tell me with it is? Please be honest. Judging from the fact that you have commented on several other threads under this video indicates that you are not too interested in debate but rather just expressing your opinion. That’s what it seems like anyway, but I rather hear it from you; what is your purpose here?
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@medeliworld oh I have plenty of ideas, and more importantly, evidence to back my claims. I have treated both you and your opinions (even the ones lacking support) with respect. You are person who needs to be listened to and understood. However, I do not feel you have done the same and it disappoints me. It is clear you are not clearly reading or understanding my posts because I never mentioned anything about parliaments or the like; or you are trying to distract the conversation again. I admitted that other entities attack each other all the time and that you and I are two people having an engaging and enlightening debate. In debates, one should reframe from base behavior and treat the other person with respect...even if you don’t agree with him/her. I have extended to you this curtesy, can you say that you have done the same?
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@medeliworld I wish you well also. Thank you for the debate. I hope you learned something; I certainly did.
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@robinlin4819 before I respond I must know; did you watch the video this thread is under? Did you read my original comment or any of the following comments underneath?
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@robinlin4819 apology accepted. I just wanted to make sure you know what you are getting into before we begin a discussion. Do you?
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@robinlin4819 and in your mind, who controls that one China?
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@robinlin4819 if the CCP controls Taiwan already why do they threaten to invade it on a daily basis? The reason I wanted to make sure you had watched video or read the long thread above this comment is because if you had, it’ll save us a lot of time. Please watch the video (if you haven’t already) before making comments. This video by Ryan Chapman really is a good, non-bias look at two separate countries tangled up in the sticky strands of history. Watch it and then we can talk.
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@tony31349 I said a lot of things, but the original comment was about how good and non-biased this video was. However if you saying that the largest economic and strongest military wins the day, you must be implying that America comes out on top.
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@medeliworld , you’re back! Awesome, and welcome back to this discussion. How did your unsolicited arguments in other threads go? You are right; Mandarin is the official language of Taiwan. It was forced upon them when the KMT fled to Taiwan. The Taiwanese also speak Taiwanese and Hakka. And yes, they do celebrate many of the same holidays as China does, but then again so do people in Malaysia, Singapore, many countries in SouthEast Asia, and even in the United States. So, claiming that sharing cultural customs China makes you part of China doesn’t work. In your time away, did you get a chance to watch the video you are posting under? It explains a lot.
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@medeliworld so now you are calling Taiwan “foreign” which means “from outside the whole”. It is like I said long ago when we had this conversation before; you know deep down within yourself the truth of reality that Taiwan is it’s own country, separate and sovereign from China or any other power. And in your other post you mentioned a lot of false comparisons to current topic, but since you are so willing to hand land to back to the people once owned it, let’s give Xin Jiang back to the Uyghurs who call it East Turkistan and Inner Mongolia to Mongolia...unless of course you agree with the borders that are should stay.
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@medeliworld the US state department acknowledges that the PROC is committed genocide in XinJiang, which was indecent until the Qing Dynasty conquered it in the 1800s. My argument is not a fantasy; you have already acknowledged the veracity of the situation by calling Taiwan a “foreign” country.
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@medeliworld now, now, keep it civil please. And I have stayed on the subject while you came in here with distractions and tangents without yet discussing the video this thread is under (as you did to other threads beyond mine). Have you watched it yet by the way? It’s quite good. You, however, have shown in multiple little ways your true inclinations toward the truth by referring to Taiwan as a foreign nation. But if you need further proof from me or have forgotten what I told you before, just know that Taiwan has her own military, money, economy, judicial system, legislative system, legal system, tax system, language, and much more. They are defacto independent if nothing else, and in my opinion they are a lot more than that. I do understand where you are coming from, but in the end, the truth cannot be obfuscated, obstructed, or denied forever.
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@medeliworld yeah, I thought his video was one of the most well-rounded and unbiased takes on the situation; it looked at the issue from the point of view of both sides with out taking a side. Well done. You say that Taiwan cannot claim independence, but they already have...everyday they exist free of CCP and PROC control. One cannot deny that the government of Chinese has no sway on the island of Taiwan, none. You’ve basically already admitted to it.
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@medeliworld Taiwan uses the NTD not the RMB. I see a lot of cognitive dissidence in your posts. For example you say things like “one country, two systems” but them start talking about reunification by 2049...well, if they were already one country why one need to reunite them? You already know the answer to that; you’ve said as much when you called the wonderful country of Taiwan a foreign threat. We had this discussion many months ago and you displayed the same level of cognitive dissidence then. You are so close to the truth, my friend. You’ll get there one day. I appreciate the opportunity to talk with you, though. Have a great day.
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@medeliworld both sides are working on it? You might need to pay attention to Taiwan’s sovereign government a bit more. And when it comes to cross straight trade, wouldn’t both sides use USD which is the international norm?
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@medeliworld You do realize that Chinese nationals are required to enter Taiwan with a passport and have work permits if they desire to work in Taiwan. Alternatively, Taiwanese can only enter China with a special card which, although different than a passport, is not something required of HongKongers or those from Macau. When I lived in Taiwan, I sat in the same lines with Chinese nationals for foreign services. I’m beginning to get an even better idea of where you are getting your information. Therefore, I can understand your view point, yet you still see Taiwan as a foreign country don’t you?
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@medeliworld ...which they wouldn’t have to do if Taiwan was part of China. But, like you have already said, Taiwan in a foreign nation to China.
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@medeliworld when the PROC implemented the extraction law in HongKong, millions of brave, patriotic young people took to the street to protest the further erosion of their freedoms by BeiJing. The PROC has not and can not make any laws like that in Taiwan because they have no power to do so. Taiwan is a beautiful, democracy. CCP controlled China, not so much. The PROC has tried to entice the people of Taiwan with the idea of “one country, two systems”, but after what happened to poor HK, no one in Taiwan wants that. So, what we have is two countries, two systems and that’s fine. Like you said, Taiwan is a foreign country to China and in my opinion that’s ok; probably for the best.
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@medeliworld so, which is it? Sometimes it sounds like you are saying that Taiwan should accept the OCTS proposal and then assert that this as always been the case. Your cognitive dissidence is staggering . Based on what you just said, I now see where you are getting your information and have an even better idea of who you are than I did many months ago when we did this before.
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@medeliworld , maybe. Predicting the future is a fools errand, but I can tell you for sure than many, many people in Taiwan do not like the idea of being controlled by China (even a little), not after what happened to poor Hong Kong. Taiwan has enjoyed peace and freedom for too long and we both know that BeiJing would eventually tighten its grip and destroy one of the most beautiful countries in the world. Also, the subtext of you last thread once again betrays your true feelings; you already know and treat Taiwan like a separate country. You’ve said as much.
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@medeliworld no need for name calling. If you can’t keep it civil, we really have nothing to say to each other. This is far from the first time I’ve had to issue you such a warning. My claim that BeiJing would tighten its grip should they acquire the free and harmonious island of Taiwan is based on its own historical trends; HongKong, XinJiang, Tibet, Falun Gong practitioners, etc.. the PROC does not have a very good track record peacefully assimilating parts into its whole. You say China has no interest in controlling Taiwan, but isn’t that exactly what they are trying to do every time they fly military aircraft into Taiwan’s ADIZ? You used to claim that China wanted to take Taiwan in order to shore up its southern border and protect itself, but that conflicts with everything you just said. With all due respect (which is more than you are giving me), your arguments are all over the place. It’s starting to become a common theme with your argument style. You are not very consistent.
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@medeliworld as one might expect in a vibrant democracy and sovereign nation like Taiwan. What are trying to do other than prove my point? You know the truth and the exhibit it more and more.
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@medeliworld stay on topic please. While you do have the freedom to insult people, it’s not nice to. If you want to be respected and have your arguments taken seriously you should probably treat your debate partner with respect and listen to their arguments as well...just sayin. I haven’t addressed the sins of the West (which should probably be divided into the separate nations) because I’m staying on topic (I would hope you do the same), which is whether or not Taiwan is part of China and you have already indirectly admitted they are separate nations. The West has done many terrible things also, but two wrongs don’t make a right; saying “well the West has done the same” is not a justification for the egregious atrocities the CCP is committing TODAY. Taiwan is so a democracy. Who told you they weren’t? How do you define democracy? What makes you so angry?
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@medeliworld I see, so you decided to ignore my questions yet again and remained off topic. Nice.
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@medeliworld Chiang Kai Shek and the KMT are the ones who imposed martial law and murdered political dissidents. I thought said you watched the video. This information is there. Watch it if you wish to continue this discussion in good faith. You still haven’t answered my questions; what makes you think Taiwan isn’t a democracy? How do you define a democracy? Where are you getting your facts from, what source?
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@medeliworld Taiwan held its first free election in the late 80s early 90s.
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@medeliworld well, I define it as citizens voting on issues and on representatives. It’s a bit telling that you couldn’t/wouldn’t answer this basic question.
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@medeliworld the Taiwanese are free and can choose to live wherever they want obviously. There will be no overseas police offices to harass them and threaten their family members if they don’t return. This is of course another one of those distractions you have pushed out there since you have lost the main value of this debate; Taiwan is separate from China. And for the record, I don’t see China as bad. I see the CCP as bad. They have destroyed a beautiful and ancient culture and care only about power and control...from my perspective anyway. It might offend you when I point out the egregious trespasses propagated by the CCP but these are not personal attacks at you, but rather at a oppressive party of autocrats.
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@medeliworld Are those demographics voting now? Yes. America is a young democracy and so is Taiwan. Not sure what your point is.
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@medeliworld so...now you are calling Taiwan a democracy albeit a failed one? Once again, your argument changes with the speed of thought. But this good for you in the long run; there are some ideas you hold that need some adjustment I feel.
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@medeliworld some of us do (relatively to other). All things fade in the fullness of time. Please, for the umteenth time, refrain from insults and disrespectful language. It is beneath you and if counterproductive if you want me to listen to you. I don’t know you, so your insults have no effect. However, they betray the fact that you are losing the argument (even to yourself) and must result to base tactics. I’m just giving you some advice on how to be a better debater in the future. You are probably a nice guy in real life, but your online etiquette needs some work quite frankly.
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@medeliworld right.....Chinese Characteristics. Anyway, back to our original discussion; Taiwan as you have already admitted is a forgiven nation to China.
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@tonymoy5291 sad for the world I would say. Also, you may have forgotten that the UN once recognized Taiwan as a country and the rightful ruler of the mainland, but changed that definition for economic and arbitrary reasons. Since then, Taiwan has become more democratic, free, and strong. The UN could change their mind again tomorrow. Then where would your argument be? Forget the UN for a second; how do you, Tony Moy, define a country (without context)?
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@orzdxy you are right; one has to put perspective in everything. That is why this video is so good - he shows the perspective of both sides. Did you watch the video before commenting? Have you been to Taiwan? Have you been to China?
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@orzdxy so is the Chinese civil war over or not over? You’ve said both. But that’s a moot point because one cannot deny that Taiwan regardless of how it came to be is it’s own sovereign country now.
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@LoC28C , no, in China there are many different dialects.
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@LoC28C if the Taiwanese were citizens of the ROC, they’d have to pay taxes to the ROC,but they don’t.
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@Birdylockso , you seem to be saying exactly what I was saying before (which is what I was told by some Taiwanese citizens who studied in FuJian, China). The dialects are similar but speakers of either can't easily understand the other. Also, you might want to be careful about assuming who can speak what.
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@LoC28C so...in your own paragraph, you are contradicting yourself. I'm more than happy to have a conversation or debate with you, but you'll need to have untangled arguments first. Taiwanese citizens do not pay taxes to Beijing and Beijing doesn't support Taiwan financially in any way. A dwindling number of brave countries still recognize Taiwan as a country. But as you know, self definition is key.
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@Birdylockso you are right that Taiwanese as a language came from FuJian (according to the linguistic knowledge available), but that, of course, is not the end of the story...most stories are still being told. How do you know what languages I do or so not speak? I could have lived in Taiwan for years and picked Mandarin or studied it in college.
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@marklee8512 what are most books in China written in, traditional or simplified characters? What are the street signs written in? What is the only choice people have on their phones? Which one is taught to children in schools? Which characters are used in business transactions? The answer to all those questions as you already know is simplified. And that’s ok; that’s not a terrible thing. It’s just another example of the divide between the two countries of Taiwan and China. You are right that Taiwan should be able to decide for itself who they are...and they basically have. Unfortunately, Beijing silences the voices of Taiwan and blocks the, from most international stages.
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@Birdylockso culturally speaking, one could say Taiwan is more Chinese than China, as they never went through the Cultural Revolution nor the Great Leap Forward. They still have numerous temples (not that China has none, just that most were destroyed) and still use traditional Mandarin. As far as linguistics goes, I’m not sure what your point is. So far, you haven’t said anything I haven’t already said in this thread from months ago. Taiwanese derived from a FuJian dialect; yes. Taiwanese is mostly on spoken in Taiwan now, though it can be somewhat understood in FuJian...but not totally. Taiwanese was the main language of the island until Chiang Kai-Shek and his nationalist army of the ROC fled there where he forbid Taiwanese from being spoken and forced Mandarin on the people. The video of which this is a post touches on that. I hope you watched it before commenting but if not, you would be remised to miss such a fine, unbiased look at the perspectives of both countries and the historical forces that drove them both to this place.
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@marklee8512 it might be prudent of you to go back and read my last comment to you; it should answer your question to me. I did not espouse an opinion on which method might be superior to the other. I simply stated the fact that the two countries have different writing systems as further proof of their statuses as separate and independent entities. Please read and listen more carefully in the future if we are continue this conversation. Thank you.
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@kunkun3287 all very good questions and I’m glad to have you in this conversation. The guy who made the comment about the 1.4 billion Chinese all want to take Taiwan was just spouting nationalistic dogma. He could not, like you said, know that without take an enormous poll.
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@marklee8512 , no, KunKun said that Taiwan was never ruled by the PROC which is undeniably true.
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@Birdylockso you seem to not be reading or hearing what I said. I have actually agreed with you on some points...or more to the point you agreed with my original comments.
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@richardfan7048 you can, of course, say that but that wasn’t what this video was about. I suggest you watch it first if you haven’t already.
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@onibattousai3193 yes
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@onibattousai3193 I’m simply using the definition of a country which Taiwan qualifies for. A better question would be why does it matter to you that Taiwan be denied her sovereignty?
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@shineluvslambiel if we are to start a conversation, you would be well served to read carefully before remarking. For example; my point has always been that Taiwanese is a dialect derived from FuJian province, but has evolved to the point that it is nearly though not completely unrecognizable to a FuJian dialect speaker. This, like you pointed out, is natural.
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@shineluvslambiel good point and good advice; I’ll continue to take that into account in our future conversations. However, if you read or understood my last post carefully, you’ll notice that I said that Taiwanese is “nearly, though not completely, unrecognizable” to the FuZhuo dialect...which is what I was told by Taiwanese who lived in FuJian, China. You are right though, I don’t know everything; I am no etymologist, but I trust the experiences of the people I’ve met. Granted that that information is anecdotal and, as you say, second hand, it is still sufficient evidence of a people and language divided.
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@jimmychen576 , yes, that’s what the guy before you said. And in the south they are similar but not the same.
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@isaacbauman8174 I think I see what you are trying to say and I’m right about that. I strongly disagree with your opinion. The facts say otherwise.
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@yanyinglun2897 actually, if you read even a little bit of this thread (somewhere around the hundreds or so) you’ll see that I gave many people the chance and opportunity to provide proof to back their wild statements. Thus far, they have only been able to make wilder and wilder claims. I am open to debate and willing to change my mind on this or any other topic provided the opposition presents facts, presents their case well, and is respectful. So far, that has not been the case.
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@mephisto2812 you’ll have to refresh my memory. Which comment of mine are you referring to?
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@manuelwong9889 yes, the PROC represents China, but not Taiwan.
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@manuelwong9889 why not what? Do you mean why Taiwan and China are separate?
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