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Comments by "" (@orboakin8074) on "How could the Islamic World be Saved? | History of the Middle East 1865-1888 - 9/21" video.

Turkey is the ONLY Muslim country that wisely embraced modernity and reform when it needed to. The same way that Christianity and the west did during their reforms and modernisation. They (Turkey) wisely embraced the policies laid out by Harun al-Rashid and embraced tolerance, secularism, democracy, capitalism, industry, technology and education. The rest of the middle east had their chance but they will never do that and their region continues to decline as a result.
45
@Wood97718 wait, you do know that the Islamic golden age happened several millennia before European colonization, right? There was no interference then and the Arab and Muslims world still decided to abandon progress because of blind orthodoxy. Second, are you telling me the region of the middle east was always peaceful before Jews and European Jews came? Finally, the Ottomans were always more progressive and modernizing since the time of the Sultanate and not when the military took power. So you claiming such, is just wrong.
12
That is why Turkey is such an exceptional country in the Muslim world. They are the only ones to embrace modernity and reforms. The Muslim world had their chance with Harun al-Rashid but rejected his changes.
11
Don't worry. It will never happen because the region, countries, politics, cultures and people are too disunited and unstable and regressive in terms of economics, politics and geography and they always fight each other.
11
@nomoresunforever3695 well said. Ironically, the Arab world was once at the pinnacle of all these factors during their golden age under Harun al-Rashid but orthodox backlash (Imams in political and religious positions) rejected his reforms and the Arab world declined while the west and Christendom wisely embraced reforms and modernity. Turkey and a few other non-Arab Muslim countries wisely are now embracing reforms and improving because of it.
8
@Aksarallah friend, it's not that you can't be a Muslim and secular. It is a question of culture. Turkey clearly shows you can. Most Nigerian Muslims show you can. To be secular does not mean having no morals. It means not being ultra conservative and regressive. Also, In Christianity, it was once deemed sinful I to practice usary. Our religion also practiced debt slavery and never sanctioned things like liberalism, democracy, and women's suffrage. Guess what? Christianity wisely reformed and made changes for social and religious betterment. Islam was on the path to making these changes but orthodox forces stopped them. This is a fundamental weakness Islam has (i.e. a religion created as a basis for political and social building that can never be separated) unlike Christianity where Church and state are separate.
8
What really screwed Islam and the middle east was when they abandoned the reforms and modernization of Harun al-Rashid during the golden age, while the west and Christendom wisely embraced change and benefit from it today. Turkey is the only Muslim country that actually reformed and modernized and is doing well because of that while maintaining their Muslim sense of identity and faith.
7
Sorry but that will never happen. Arabs and Muslims in the middle east rejected modernity, reform and secularism when they abandon d the golden age policies of Harun al-Rashid, while the west and Christendom wisely embraced such and benefits from it till this day, and they (Muslims and Arabs) have never made any efforts to try again.
7
@JIJCrow I wonder why? Maybe because their civilization and economy and politics and institutions are far better and make for stable and better union?
7
@Aksarallah I didn't know you needed to be an atheist to be a secularist. Maybe my late President Yar'Adua of Nigeria, was secretly bit a Muslim. Maybe Turkey is secretly not a Muslim country despite being secular and more modern and developed than the rest of the Muslim world.
6
@eljanrimsa5843 This is because the culture of Indonesia and Malaysia predates islam and is NOT ARABIC! This is also why in my country, Nigeria, many Muslims, though conservative, are not ultra-orthodox. Heck! the richest man in Africa is a Nigerian called Dangote and he is Muslim but he is no supporter of Sharia law, nor does he oppose capitalism, democracy, or secularism. Same with many Muslims here. We have our radicals and extremists but they are a loud minority.
6
That's because with Christianity, our religion was never set up as a social and political tool, unlike Islam. it was once deemed sinful to practice usary or even have more representative governance in the west. Our religion also practiced debt slavery and never sanctioned things like liberalism, democracy, and women's suffrage. Christianity wisely reformed and made changes for social and religious betterment. Islam was on the path to making these changes but orthodox forces stopped them. This is a fundamental weakness Islam has (i.e. a religion created as a basis for political and social building that can never be separated) unlike Christianity where Church and state are separate.
5
@jacklaurentius6130 really? Christendom and western reforms were unwise? Considering you are using technology and living in a stable and developed society borne of such reforms, I call you a hypocrite.
5
@lambert801 I know about those atrocities. I also know much of that was perpetuated by the declining and fascistic Ottoman empire. The Young Turks movement of Attarturk largely abhorred these evils. Plus, the early to mid periods of the Ottoman empire was the era where tolerance and progress was being made and espoused. That is what I refer to.
4
@commonman9782 no, it won't. It would simply adapt like most other world religions tend to do. Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, and others already adapted and are still strong religions. Islam clearly adapted in Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia, Armenia, Ethiopia etc. It is you Arabs and your culture that refuses to change or adapt and you are failing because of this socially, economically, and politically.
4
@gray8091 religious dogma and fanaticism does not make sense with reality😔 If all you do is simply believe you will succeed because your faith and God said so, but you don't work to improve or develop, you will not win. Christianity and other religions learned this lesson and are succeeding. Even Turkey understood this when they reformed as an Islamic country and improved economically and socially and culturally. The rest of the Muslim world refuses to do this and keeps failing.
4
No. They should simply reform as Turkey did and as Christianity and the west did. They had their chance with Harun al-Rashid during the golden age but rejected his wise reforms 😔
3
@fuzzley911 I agree with you. They don't need to abandon islam. They just need to do what most religions and societies on earth have already done: Reform religiously and culturally. Christianity and the west already did that. So did Hindu India and Buddhist Japan and East Asia. Islam and the middle east were on track to reform during their golden age but stupid regressive forces stopped these reforms with expected consequences.
3
@ishaqrahuya I'm sorry but how exactly does someone watching whatifalthist prove them to be wrong about a statement? How about you actually saying what his comment gets wrong about Islam or the middle east?😕😕 Can you try that, my simple minded friend?
3
@thanhhoangnguyen4754 This is because the culture of Indonesia and Malaysia predates islam and is NOT ARABIC! This is also why in my country, Nigeria, many Muslims, though conservative, are not ultra-orthodox. Heck! the richest man in Africa is a Nigerian called Dangote and he is Muslim but he is no supporter of Sharia law, nor does he oppose capitalism, democracy, or secularism. Same with many Muslims here. We have our radicals and extremists but they are a loud minority.
3
@Klopp2543 Yeah, you are correct. Sorry. In other comment threads on this video, I actually do acknowledge this. I, especially, highlight how Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia, Armenia and a few other non-Arab Muslim countries have better socioeconomic, political and cultural systems than the Arab world and how their forms of Islam are more moderate and reformed. I agree that the main issue is not one of Islam but of culture.
3
@ShapurDD yes, and that is why Christianity tends to embrace some level of secularism because we understood long ago that for society to advance properly, religion should be a strong guide for culture, economics, laws and politics instead of a dominating force, unlike Islam and the Arab world. Turkey clearly learned this wisdom too.
3
@jacklaurentius6130 my words? You mean pointing out how Christian reforms were wisely done? Friend, you do realize that prior to social and religious reforms the Church did, stuff like debt slavery, chattel slavery, and low proliferation of science and innovation was sanctioned by ruling monarchs and social elites who used the church as their bulwark to suppress these things. It is thanks to more enlightened minds and their philosophy, in line with the tenets of traditional Christianity, in the church who made it possible for better reforms to come. I mean, you do know that the scientific method was created by Sir Francis Bacon (a devout Christian). The censorship from monarchies after th invention of Gutenberg's printing press was a failure partly due to the Church's earlier stance on promoting literacy among common folk via them reading the bible. Basically, Christianity came to a conclusion that God created the natural world and in order for us a his creations to be closer to him, we must study the natural world; something Islam rejected. So, again, how exactly did you infer from my comments that I believe Christianity hindered science or anything else?
3
@Pakilla64 that's your best comeback? You could have easily made an African corruption joke🤣 Also, I noticed you didn't say I was wrong about Arabs and Islamic colonialism. Guess you agree 😊👍
3
Sanctimonious and a hypocrite he was, but still a minority among westerners and far better than the majority of Arabs and Muslims or that time. At least the British and Europeans actively tried and succeeded in abolishing slavery via economic and military means, despite having no reason to aside from humanity and their own pride. Arabs and Muslims were content to keep that evil alive and still practice it today with no sense of shame.
2
@test-ot1fz Yes, the west is not a Christian orthodoxy anymore, like how the middle east is Islamic orthodoxy, but for you to say the west is no longer Christian is not really true. What about the Judeo-Christian frameworks, laws, philosophies, politics and economics all derived from Christianity? Things like liberalism, capitalism, etc that all were derived from Christianity? Also, more than half of western populations still identify as Christians. So the west is still Christian no matter how you look at it. They are just not ultra-orthodox like the middle east and that is a very good thing.
2
@Kadir-lq5rz What weakness? Did you not see my comments praising the Ottomans for being one of the few Islamic civilizations that had the wisdom to reform and embrace modernity? Seriously, did you actually read any of my comments? I literally talk about how Turkey embrace reforms and changed socially, culturally, religiously, and economically. That was why they thrived and also why today they doing so well on all fronts compared to the Arab world.
2
No. They simply have to reform as Harun al-Rashid during their golden age was doing. They abandoned his reforms and their region has declined ever since. Look at Turkey as the only Muslim country wisely embraced reforms and modernity and thrives economically, politically and in other areas.
2
@Followers_of_Tawheed How so? Only Muslim country with strong economy, industrializing, manufacturing, good demographics, political stability, good trade, liberalism, secularism, strong military, good global diplomacy and geopolitical credentials, good food security, good climatic and geographical conditions, and positive outlook. Why do you think they are not exceptional? especially compared to the vast majority of the islamic world?
2
@mukhtarolakunle8102 Yes, and this is why tribalism, inter-ethnic violence, discrimination, pseudo-caste systems and slavery doesn't exist in the middle east anymore post islam.......oh wait!
2
@sagn1962 oh dang! Sorry. I meant Azerbaijan. Thanks for pointing out my mistake.
2
@ShapurDD sure, tell yourself what you want. If embracing modernity, tolerance, technological innovation, better economics and political and social systems is losing, then thank God Christianity "lost" as you say🤣 We lost so hard that Judeo-Christian civilizations are the dominant ones in our world. Liberalism and democracy, a derivative of Christianity, is the dominant social policy for most countries, even non-Christian ones. Judeo-Christian civilizations and religion also led to abolishing slavery, creating amazing technology that even you are using. Thank God Christianity "lost" while Islam "won"
2
@jacklaurentius6130 no,I am not saying that. How in God's name did you come to that conclusion based on any of my comments?
2
@Pakilla64 Funny you mention colonialism as if the Arabs and Islam were not doing that already and far worse than the west and Christendom. Colonialism was being done by everyone, even my ancestors in Africa did it to other tribes. At least west and Christian colonialism led to the abolishing of slavery and the more modern world we are living in compared to teh garbage Arab and islamic colonialism brought😕😕 Also, at least the west and Christendom apologized for their colonialism. Have Arabs and Muslims done that? nope and they never will.
2
@gray8091 what? You mean to tell me that the reforms of Ataturk did nothing for Turkey? So the economic improvements and stability he brought never happened? You liar. Also, the return to democratic ruke you are talking about happened in 1983 when the Motherland Party won and replaced the military junta. Sorry but Motherland Party were not Islamist as you say and they were secular, and economically liberal. Stop lying please. I can check your lies.
2
Keep on dreaming then. So far, the only Muslim country that even stands a chance at greatness is Turkey since they wisely embraced reforms and modernity while the rest of you abandoned such during the golden age of Islam and you continue to decline.
1
@SuperBadadan Yes, for the Muslims. Let's just say throughout history, any major caliphate has benefitted them but for only a short span and in the long-run, it always fell apart due to infighting, economic, cultural and geographic issues. But mainly due to the fact that islam is meant to be a dominating force rather than a moral guide and this makes it incapable of adapting or changing when it has to, as other world religions do. Heck! during their golden age, their ruler, Harun al-Rashid, was making progress at reforming islam via Mutazilism and they were the pinnacle of scientific, religious, philosophical, economic and societal advancements, especially compared to Europe and Christendom but a backlash from ultra-orthodox sects and religious elites, stopped these reforms because it threatened their status and power. Islamic civilization began to regress after that. Thankfully, Turkey saw wisdom in reforms and is benefitting today because of it.
1
@Beyonder1987 funny you mention Islamic golden age😂 Do you know one major reason why it failed? Because the reforms that Harun al-Rashid wanted to make to modernize Islam and the Arab world, were rejected by his enemies and orthodox imams (Mutazilism vs Ashari) Because ot this, Islam declined in science, technology, politics, economics, philosophy while Christendom and the west wisely reformed a prospered. Second, you mention the Ottomans. You do know that even they tried to reform and modernize the middle east but they were rejected by the Arabic culture and people. Good thing other Sultans and Attarturk wisely reformed Turkey and they are doing well today. Finally, why do you keep mentioning oil? Has oil made the middle east stable or economically prosperous compared to East Asia and Europe that has no oil? Having resources is not all a country needs to be stable and prosperous.
1
No wonder your region continues to fail while smarter Muslim countries like Turkey embrace modernity and reforms and are prospering as Muslims.
1
@Wood97718 No, your golden age started to end before the Mongols, when the reforming Mutazilism was crushed by Ashari and Hanbali and Zahiri Islam sects who hated the changes. The fact that China, Europe and Iran managed to continue as civilizations despite the Mongols shows you are lying. Also, really? So Jews were responsible for the fall of the first caliphate and the infighting among Islam that followed? They were responsible for the Sunni Shia split? They were responsible for the brutal wars of conquest the Ottomans did to you Arabs? They were responsible for the instability in Arabia during the succession wars between Saud and his family? No, your region has always been plagued with instability and conflict and in typical fashion, Muslims like you will simply blame others for your failings 😕
1
@test-ot1fz Yes, Libya was "richer" during Gaddafi but it was also not politically stable or economically equal for all citizens. Plus, it fell quickly into civil war after he was killed. Not a very well built country. Iraq's military being strong is not a very good indicator. he couldn't even beat Iran. Their economy was still weak, corrupt, Saddam oppressed his own people, invaded other Arab countries and plunged his country and the region into chaos. Also, what makes you think all of teh west and Christendom supports LGBTetc? If you have any sense and actually talk to westerners and Christians, most of us don't support it. We certainly don't hate them as you do in your part of the world but we respect their rights as citizens. We just don't support their lifestyle. Finally, you secularism means no more Christianity? I suppose you also think Turkey has no Islam anymore too😕😕Secularism simply means tolerance. Considering you people in the middle east still have infighting, despite being Muslim (Sunni versus Shia, Ahmadiya discrimination, Wahhabism and Salafism extremism, Mutazali repression etc) you guys are not as united as you like to imagine.
1
@Kral_Cihan Problem?😂 Considering how stable, industrialized, modern, developed, educated, and militarily strong Turkey is compared to theor lsIamic neighbors, i think Atarturk was right. Also, since Erdogan tried to ruin the economy with lsIamic policies like no interest rates, it's clear that it doesn't work.
1
@ミコラーシュ-p3f so Muslims can't ever be moderate or secular or liberal or even have any differences whatsoever? It is all conformity or nothing?
1
@ishaqrahuya Okay, instead of debate, how about actually calling out the incorrect points in his original comment about Islam and the middle east? Also, no offense, but it sounds more like you hate whatifalthist on a personal level rather than you viewing him as a bad historian based on any actual objective metric😕😕 I mean, really? So if reading history from the 60s is a demerit in your eyes, I must be a worse historian for reading about ancient Rome or my country's (Nigeria) history from the 30s. You can dislike who you want but that is not enough to label them as wrong. You need better reasons.
1
@ishaqrahuya Yeah, I do watch whatifalthist so i know a pretty good deal about his content, areas of interest and the material he uses for research. So I have enough to engage on stuff regarding him. Second, considering how he frequently cites books like Jonathan Haidt's Cuddling of the American Mind, which was written LONG after the 60s (and other post-60s academic books), forgive me if I don't believe your weird stance on his view on books published after that period😕😕Yes, he may have said that off-hand comment but I really doubt it was as generalizing or simplified as you claim. Finally, which refuting by المصنف ابن ابی شيبة are you referring to exactly? Plus, how was Harun al-Rashid not a moderniser?
1
@arianagrandaremix8858 Well, yes. I actually acknowledge all of this that you just listed about islam and slavery. I agree with you. Did any of my previous comments make it seem otherwise?
1
@Pakilla64 And that is one of it's greatest flaws, especially Arab culture and Arab islam. Due to this, it is slow, sometimes impossible, for it to make any reforms and necessary changes for the betterment of itself and society simply since the social, religious and political elites want to maintain their status at the expense of everyone else. This is basically why during their golden age, they rejected the reforms of Harun al-Rashid and declined subsequently in economics, politics, education, philosophy, science and technology compared to the west and Christendom. Good thing Christianity and even Turkey never had this weakness.
1
@leaveme3559 okay, so is the rift between Sunni and Shia healed? Does Islam still view Ahmadiyya as heretics deserving of death? Are moderate Muslims still attacked? Sorry but pan islamism died a long while ago.
1
@mool487 wow, thank you for this honesty and objective sense. You are the first Muslim who actually agrees with me on this. During the golden age of Islam, Harun al-Rashid was promoting reforms that would have continued the social, technological, economic and philosophical advancements the region was making but backlash by Ultra-Orthodox forces stopped them. Seriously, respect for being one of the few objective Muslims I have seen. Hope to see more like you.
1
@BESTINTHEWORLD0007 None of these things you mentioned (Coronation, divorce, French Revolution, Crusades) have anything to do with liberalism. What exactly are you trying to say? By your logic, didn't Islam hen lose to Christianity with scientific revolution, Industrial revolution, colonialism, etc?🤔🤔
1
@BESTINTHEWORLD0007 Yes, you are saying that but it is clearly not accurate. Secularism is defined as a policy of separating religion from public affairs like politics, economics, education, industry, and civil law. Christianity didn't lose to secularism. It evolved with secularism and modernized, like many other religions like Hinduism (India) Shinto and Buddhism (Japan), even Islam in Turkey, Azerbaijan, Malaysia, Senegal, Indonesia and few others modernized and have elements of secularism. That is why their politics, economies and judicial systems are not hindered and stagnant like the Arab world today. That is also why they have true national unity and stability while you Arabs continue to fight and have unstable countries.
1
@gray8091 what are you talking about?
1