Comments by "Jack Haveman" (@JackHaveman52) on "'What Was the Body Count In The 20th Century From Marxism-Leninism': DeSantis Shreds Communism" video.
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@jimmcloughlin
Estimates for the deaths of the famine, brought on by collectivisation in China, put in motion by Mao, run as high as 55 million. That's in the fifties, NOT WW2. Then there was the cultural revolution that started in the mid sixties and lasted 10 years. Add that to the famines, and it may be as high as 70 million. These are deaths, not due to wars, but to the disastrous policies of the Chairman Mao and his associates. Then there were the disasters of Stalin and Lenin. Once again, not due to WW2, but to the famines caused by collectivisation of farms and the horrors of their police state. These are deaths brought down on their OWN people.
Then the famines of the Soviet Union, brought on by the same communist policies under Lenin and Stalin. Around 5 million in 1923 and maybe as many as 7 million in 1933, including around 3.5 million Ukrainians. Then another 1.7 in the Gulags.
Who knows how many millions have died in North Korea in the 20th century. Another 2 million in the killing fields of Cambodia by the communists there. Around 1 in 4 Cambodians died because of Pol Pots great agrarian society.
These are just the numbers from the main communist powers. We have no idea on the numbers in the Iron Curtain countries of those times, or Cuba, Zimbabwe and other socialist regimes. These are all deaths NOT through foreign invasions or wars. These are deaths caused directly from the policies of the communist governments.
I have references for all of it. All you gotta do is ask.
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@jimmcloughlin
First of all, Lysenko had no influence on the 1923 famine that killed millions. That happened because government forces took all the crops, including the seeds for next years crops, to feed the army and people living in the cities. So, those millions came as a result of authoritarian over reach and the idea that all products belonged to the state.
Lysenko was starting to gain influence in the early thirties but that had very little to do with Holodomor. This was caused by the collectivisation policies, in which the farms were taken away from the farmers and farm collectives were organised. People were put to work on these farms who had no idea on how to farm. Many others were angry about losing their farms and basically refused to work. Many farmers were displaced and had nowhere to go and nothing to eat. They starved to death because the Socialist government insisted on farming collectives.
Lysenko only made things worse. Yes, it was bad science but no farmer would have followed his ideas because they would know that it didn't work. It was the socialist government that forced it on the collective farms, which caused the crop failures. In fact, anyone that spoke out against Lysenko, would be arrested and sent to the Gulag or worse. It was bad science forced on the people by socialist politicians. Farmers, in a free country, would never have followed his ideas. The only reason that they were followed in the Soviet Union and China is due to the political might of the communist governments.
...and yes, China tried the same methods and those methods were FORCED on those who were supposed to grow the crops. They had no choice and the crops failed miserably. No sensible Chinese farmer would have used the Lysenko methods but the small farms were all gone, replaced by the collectives. The collectives were run by the government who mandated that the collective farms used the Lysenko farming methods.
So, I'll say it again. It was bad science and that bad science was forced on the people by the communist governments. Politics forced it. That's where you've got it all backwards....and wrong.
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