Comments by "Ronin Dave" (@RoninDave) on "Is It Ever Okay To Criticize Israel?" video.

  1. Israel is a bizarre idea no matter how you slice it. Creating a homeland for people of one faith regardless of their ethnic background (though there has been internal debate over this) has never happened and no Saudi Arabia does not count as a homeland for muslims. There is no country that has been specifically set up as such. Then you top it off by creating that homeland on lands once occupied by people of that faith nearly 2000 years ago which had been long occupied afterwards. Also there is the whole fulfilling the "promised land" concept created by a rather cranky deity who advocated wholesale massacres of peoples living on said promised land. It's history repeating itself. "Israel" has long been a dream for Jews scattered about after the failed rebellions against the Romans in the first and second centuries when those who remained became a minority in their own country. Over the centuries small groups emigrated back but never created much of a problem. Many over the years were fleeing persecution in Christian areas and ironically finding peace under Islamic rule. It wasn't until modern zionism advocated for a Jewish state that it started to become an issue. Trying to force a romantic ideal onto a reality where people had been living for centuries and saw the "returnees" as foreigners at best and invaders at worse was never going to go down easily or peacefully. From 1919 onward, Nu-Israel has been a constant source of back-n-forth violence. Settlers compound the problem. Being inflamed by the homeland dream they want to reclaim ancient historical land that is or was occupied by Palestinians and no one not even their own government will stop them from achieving this dream. So what you have is a state set up as a refuge for Jews who until the 20th century were primarily persecuted in Christian Europe. For the most part the Jewish-Muslim animosity is a very recent thing so the realization of this dream has created an enemy that didn't really exist before.  Israel and her supporters really need to do some introspect to see what their homeland dream has accomplished. They have been in a state of constant tension and continuous flare-ups of violence for nearly 100 years now. They have made an enemy of much of the Islamic world where once Jews used to flee to from European persecution. They have had to militarize much of their population out of necessity. They have to guard their school children with machine guns.  And they need to look at their own history and understand that when the Jews were at their best was when things were at their worse - wandering in the desert, the Babylonian captivity, resistance to Greek and later Roman occupiers, the diaspora, the numerous persecutions up to the Holocaust, etc... throughout all of this Jews were able to maintain their identity, their customs, and their culture. Some of the greatest expressions of their faith come from moments of adversity - passover when they were captives of Egypt and hanukkah during the maccebean resistance. Whenever they had success such as having their own kingdom, it never lasted long. Ancient Israel split in two in less than a century. The Hasmoneans had about a half century run before the Romans showed up. Really the only area that had significant presence of Jewish rule was the much smaller kingdom of Judah which lasted about 300 years and even then was at the mercy of stronger neighbors. To judge by history, Jews have been made stronger as a people by hardships and weaker by success.  And what is the future of Israel and its dream? Will they continue expanding into lands that they believed they owned under King David and the Hasmoneans despite the fact that these never existed for very long? Will they split into two nations like they did after David? Can Israel sustain itself on this romantic notion of a renewed homeland?
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  2. wooo weee irrational hateful people? Tell that to the villagers of Deir Yassin or the victims of the King David Hotel bombing. The irrationality and hate exists on both sides as Ayelet Shaked recently shows. You scream Israel has a right to exist but to what purpose? To live forever under fear of the original inhabitants (and yes they are the original inhabitants of the last 2000 years) who want the land that was taken from them starting in 1919? To live in a state perpetual fear and mistrust of their neighbors?  The current system is not working and has not been working for a long time.  Your attempt to compare european countries to present day Israel I'm afraid falls rather short. The 100 years war was primarily a war between aristocracy whom many shared the same bloodline. But lets say we try to compare - England is a partially a product of the Norman Conquest. The Normans were viking pillagers that the French king in desperation gave royal title and land to in order to appease them into becoming allies. The Northmen who were the minority adopted the language, culture, and religion of the area which became known as Normandy. By 1066 they were for all intents and purposes French. It was this tenuous connection along with a few marriages afterwards that led Edward III to make a claim on the French throne starting the 100 years war. Over time his descendants gave up the claim as the Anglo-Norman aristocracy became Anglo-cized. Does Israel have any intention of doing so in the Middle East? The early re-emigrants prior to the zionist movement to Palestine were able to maintained their customs and religion but they did not take land from others and were not seen as a threat. Modern Israel sticks out like a sore thumb - a bit of Europe in the Middle East. A better historical example instead of the 100 Years War is the Crusades. Sure it was Christians back in the day but from the mind's eye of the Middle East Israel is the Crusades all over again. The religion may be different but it is still a western invasion and occupation. Israel has done little to dispel this. Personally I think both the Israelis and Palestinians need to have a long drawn out heart-to-heart and throw out this concept of a separate Jewish-Palestine state but rather create a mixed country where there can one day be a native-born muslim prime minister voted in by resident muslims, jews, and christians based on their policies and not their religion and ethnicity. 
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  3. ***** Keep in mind Israel as we know it today wasn't the only choice for a Jewish homeland. It was the ancient romantic dream of the old homeland - a homeland promised by a tribal deity that had to be conquered from the original inhabitants - that put modern Israel in a situation where they have been seen as outsiders and invaders. If modern Israel had been carved out of Germany as some had suggested there would have been a lot less grief and if Germans had complained no one would have cared. As it is it has been almost 100 years since 1919 when Britain took over from the original Ottoman landlords and over 60 years since Israel became a nation and here we still are with Israelis and Palestinians still shooting at each other and each screaming the other is the bad guy. Is this the future you want? Non-ending strife and conflict with Palestinians and neighboring countries? Or if a time when world condemnation no longer matters, will Israel unleash Armageddon on the Palestinians and their neighbors? With lawmakers like Ayelet Shaked that seems to be a possible future reality.
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  4. Dan Jones yeah but the promises of tribal gods aren't a legal basis for occupation and re-occupation. If I claim your house because Cthulhu promised it to me, it'd be about the same.
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  5. Saddamuel As have the Palestinians who feel they have just as much right to the land as the Israelis do
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  6. jasper rester of course there wasn't a palestinian government because prior to 1919 it was controlled by the Ottomans just like there was no syrian, iraqi, lebanonese, etc.. governments for the same reason. So the UN voted for Israel? It hasn't stopped the strife now has it?
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  7. jasper rester "apart from the crazy notion of "the whole Israel" - owning all the lands of kind David etc. which I never heard anyone advocate" Talk to some of the settlers who defy their own government. More than a few are Americans born and raised who went over with that romantic dream of reclaiming the Holy Jewish Land and little understanding of the complexities of the situation. http://forward.com/articles/201867/settlers-want-israel-tied-to-past-but-what-abou/?p=all
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  8. TheHandofMan the difference is which Native Americans? Even if we did give the land back there was still vast stretches of unoccupied land which the first settlers settled on. No Native Americans were forced out of what became Jamestown and Plymouth for example. I just think it ironic that a country which just a few short generations again were primarily European are telling people who had lived on the land for more than a thousand years that they are Jordanians and go anywhere else but they have to give up the land their families have owned for so long. As it is, I don't propose Israel should just close up shop because there has been successive generations who have only known Israel as their home but they have got to rethink the whole refuge for all Jewry thing because lately its been this influx which keeps messing up the status quo particularly with a number of starry-eyed Americans who become settlers intent on reclaiming Hebron and other ancient hebrew sites.
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  9. TheHandofMan you're quoting yourself. Did I say Israel was illegitimate as a state? However to claim legitimacy based on a homeland lost 2000 years ago - a homeland promised by a tribal deity and secured by massacres is bizarre. I said Israel is a bizarre thing created under unique conditions particularly regarding the concept of it being a refuge from persecution even though currently that state has been involved in persecution for decades. Israel is at a crossroad. Either they do what has been done down the ages and evict the Palestinians with much bloodshed whilst foregoing any future cries of sympathy for their own past plights or they can reforge their nation into a tolerant nation and a refuge literally and figuratively for all the persecuted in the world.
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  10. TheHandofMan   Once was an earnest poster named thehandofman who attempted debate with a faulty plan defeated at every turn he watched his premises burn now reduced to a dribbling wreck he can only burble dick dreck hoping some will think it clever but the answer is always "never!"
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  11. Okmnji Nji incredible argument, kid
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  12. TheHandofMan assumptions and it's "you're"
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  13. jasper rester ah, the olde palestinians should just move to Jordan or some other other Muslim country because they are Muslim. This just shows how ignorant Israelis and Israeli supporters are to the Middle East hence the continual conflict
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  14. tubester4567 Pakistan is not a homeland or refuge for all muslims to flock to. the area that became Pakistan had been predominately muslim since the 8th Century - FYI Taj Mahal one of the wonders of the world is a Muslim creation so there has been a muslim presence in the region for 1200 years.
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  15. TheHandofMan no your lack of understanding does not make my criteria flawed. I know you think that makes you sound intelligent but it doesn't. America and the other countries you mentioned were not founded as a refuge for people of one particular faith or ethnicity. With Pakistan, that area had been predominately muslim to begin with since the 8th Century. Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc... were more the result of European meddling and its aftermath but at the end of the day it was the people within those areas who made the decisions for themselves. Even with America, it began as a British colony and first actually bought the land off of the Native Americans. It was not until more than a hundred years after the colonies started that the area became independent and started spreading westward to the dismay of Native Americans which policies I don't support - however one difference is that Native Americans still live in America and aren't being shoved into Mexico or Canada saying they're all the same like some pro-Israelis are saying should be done with Palestine. In contrast, modern Israel began as a dream of late 19th century European zionists and preceded much faster than the US. At first while the area was controlled by the Ottomans they existed as only a colony without political power but after WWI began exerting pressure on their British overlords and their Arab neighbors. After WWII a huge bulk of Jews poured in from primarily European (hence why they were seen by some as crusaders of yore). And here is the other difference - none of the countries you mentioned (all muslim oddly enough save the US) were not founded by some principle of regaining some ancient long-lost homeland which had been originally taken thru bloody conquest. Anyway, history lesson aside, do you really want Israel to be as bad as 19th century America? Even most Americans are rather ashamed by what happened which is why Custer isn't terribly revered in modern times.
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  16. Doge texas isn't occupying colorado or interfering with their laws or vice versa. Bad analogy. Israel has to realize that their dream is not shared by those who live there and have lived there for generations.
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  17. Doge I was referring to the technology gap where one side is reduced to firing rockets which have a dismal hit ratio and throwing rocks. try not to be so literal
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  18. TheHandofMan no Pakistan is not unique in the way Israel is. Did Pakistan have Muslims return after centuries of pining for it? Did Pakistan set itself up as refuge for all Muslims worldwide? Has Pakistan had a strong ally like the US to defend its interests? Your comparison is weak and unconvincing and nothing to do with my original post
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  19. TheHandofMan ah the ye olde "I was just trolling all along! No, honestly! I swear!" Nice homoeroticism at the end. Makes your "trolling" really legitimate.
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  20. ***** why not a secular state?
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  21. ***** so in other words no one other than that of jewish ethnicity will have power there. Imagine saying something similar to that in Europe or US and Canada.
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  22. ***** yes and now they are persecuting the people who had been living on their promised land for centuries after the Romans kicked many of the original Israelites out or left on their own accord.
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  23. ***** Well it actually wasn't their ancestral homeland either as they conquered it from the original inhabitants the Canaanites and other groups which again makes Israel a bizarre thing in modern times - wanting to create a state for one specific group of an ancestral homeland that had been lost nearly 2000 years earlier and create it on top of the people who had been living there for centuries.
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  24. ***** The Kurds have been there continuously for centuries. They aren't trying to carve out a territory for themselves coming from say France so it's not the same thing. This is what you are failing to understand. Israel is a bizarre thing because it was created primarily by people continually coming to it from the outside claiming ownership due to a 2000 year old claim meanwhile fleeing persecution to then turn around and persecute a weaker people.
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  25. TheHandofMan thank you for your brilliant rebuttal
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  26. dookdawg214 does that in anyway change my point?
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  27. jasper rester Jordanian? Have you asked them that? They were kicked off land that had belonged to them for generations because some Europeans wanted to relive the dream of an ancient homeland they lost nearly 2000 years
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  28. TheHandofMan No, you just don't understand the complexities of the situation - in the US or in the Middle East. Calling all Native Americans the same despite the vast different cultures, languages, and religions is the same as saying the Palestinians are Jordanians or any other Muslim group.  Personally I would welcome a joint ownership of the land with the various native american groups respective to the area.
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  29. Doge of course Israel can "take" the Gaza strip. At this point, the boy scouts could as those rockets and rocks are nigh near ineffectual. Is that what you want? No one likes to be kicked out of their home regardless of the reasons behind it. 
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  30. Doge Palestinians are part of the Israeli dream of a homeland. It's as simple as that
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  31. Doge Palestinians have not always been ruled by Hamas now have they? Try to understand in the late 19th century the dream of returning the homeland captivated primarily European Jews and as they grew in numbers and might they pursued this dream which the inhabitants who had been living there for a thousand years did not share.
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  32. TheHandofMan your fluff? Again don't use words you don't understand. You wanted to use Pakistan but for reasons I've already explained it isn't applicable. What I have said is Israel is different because no other country has been founded in such a way
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  33. ***** Muslim does equal Arab nor vice versa. Many indigenous people converted
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  34. TheHandofMan you are pedantic for pedantic sake and offer nothing og substance to this "debate" if I could even call it as such. Your example of Pakistan is weak on several levels which I have discussed ad nauseam yet you continue to chirp "Pakistan! Pakistan! Pakistan!" as though that meant anything. Pakistan is not and was never created as a homeland for all muslims worldwide to say as such is boldface lie. It was intended as a muslim state separate from the hindu India in the wake of British withdrawal. As I mentioned repeatedly the area of Pakistan had been a muslim area for 1000 years so unlike Israel no one was coming home after two thousand years to reclaim land other people were living on. You can keep bleating pakistan but 1) I will keep shooting it down with facts and 2) it has no bearing whatsoever on the current situation in Israel which you seem to be apprehensive to discuss hence your post after post of hair-splitting nonsense.
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  35. ***** I've already discussed and dismissed Pakistan as it is not the same. The region now known as Pakistan has been chiefly muslim for since the 8th-9th century. It wasn't land "stolen" from India at least not since the early Middle Ages. Also Pakistan was not formed in 1947 by outsiders coming into the country but from within by people who had been residing there for centuries many of them being descendant of the original inhabitants who had converted to Islam. Israel had been a dream for Jews throughout the world for nearly 2000 years since the failed rebellions against the Romans and the idea of a Jewish state started in Europe not in Israel itself in the late 19th century. From 1919 to 1949 and after you had a flood of Jewish immigrants into Israel from around the world. Many of the settlers who are currently causing problems are a majority of these immigrants. so the two are hardly comparable for a number of reasons
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  36. ***** By 1947 Pakistan had over 1000 years of history as a separate muslim entity with various successive empires. Had the British not shown up and mucked about, it still would have been an area separate from Hindu India. And keep in mind like many places of the old Arab conquest, the old populations weren't massacred, driven out, or magically disappeared. Most of them converted so what you have in Pakistan is many of the same people descended from those who had essentially been living there for over 5000 years. So again Pakistan was formed from within by peoples who had lived there for centuries if not millennia. Meanwhile modern Israel was created from with out by people moving into the region where others had been living for centuries with the notion of recreating the old promised homeland and a refuge for Jews around the world. Ironically it was set up as a place so Jews could avoid persecution which they had suffered predominately in Christian Europe over the centuries and yet now they are seen by a number of people especially the Palestinians as the persecutors. This is what makes Israel bizarre.  
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  37. ***** Your personal issues with Pakistan does not make Pakistan equatable to Israel. Sorry but it doesn't. 
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  38. ***** Again the difference is in the modern world invasion and conquest is no longer a legitimate way to create a country. We can't go back and save the victims of Wounded Knee or the Fez Massacre but we can condemn modern nations doing so. After WWII, a number Islamic leaders had wondered why not create a Jewish homeland out of the area of the people who had so badly treated them instead of carving out a country on land already occupied by people who had not persecuted them. With Israel the problem isn't just that they pushed people off their land. It's that they continually surround and occupy Palestinians which perpetuates the endless cycle of violence. 
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  39. TheHandofMan all your responses still don't have any substance. Anyhoo did ham as start this round? No so your point if you even have one is moot.
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  40. XZDrake The Arabs didn't steal the land from the Jews. Open a damn history book! Ever hear of the Wailing Wall? That'll give you a clue what actually happened rather your horribly inaccurate version that I'd swear was an outright lie if I didn't suspect you are just woefully ignorant.
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  41. TheHandofMan still waiting for you to have an actual point. "Doesn't matter, Bigger guns remember ?" Well aren't you a callous SOB?
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  42. TheHandofMan Already made. It's not my fault you missed the point that 100+ people agreed with. Just hang it up already. You're done, son, without ever really starting.
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  43. TheHandofMan I like how you have given up even a ghost of having a point being reduced to a pathetic parrot who has to borrow most of his words from his master.
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  44. XZDrake Israel was under the control of the Byzantine Empire in the 7th Century who had recently taken it back from the Persians. It was not under the control of any Jewish majority. I gave you a clue with the Wailing Wall but apparently you were too dense to follow thru with that and stupidly assumed that the muslims had built that. The Wailing Wall is a remnant of the 2nd Temple which was destroyed by the Romans when they crushed Jewish resistance in 70s AD. That rebellion and the one that followed 50 years later enacted terrible reprisal which was the destruction of Jerusalem and expulsion of Jews from the reconstructed Jerusalem. This is why saying the Arabs stole land from the Jews is a misnomer because the majority of the population in the 7th Century was not Jewish certainly not Jerusalem. By that time many Jews had left Israel spreading throughout North Africa, Middle East, and Europe. By the time the Arabs arrived the Jews who were left in Israel were already a subjugated minority.  
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  45. ***** I can understand the need given the long history of persecution but now they are the ones who are doing the persecutions.
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  46. Mohammed Ashraf good point. The British in interfering in the region really mucked things up (Iraq was their creation as well while we can blame the French for Syria). The idea of European Jews in control of Israel was a popular one for several reasons 1) it fits in with the Bible; 2) they're European; 3) this new state would be beholden to the UK and give it a leg up in the region over other European countries. However it was a case of easier said than done and trying to appease both sides, Britain pissed off both sides 
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  47. TheHandofMan lol! You are so broken up about this, aren't you? You've been reduced to making homoerotic troll remarks. Can you not see how pathetic you have become?
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  48. TheHandofMan Yes, someone like you would have a mature debate on Israel...
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  49. ***** so will there ever be a prime minister who is Christian, Muslims, or buddhist?
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  50. TheHandofMan sorry, you're not my type. 
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  51. ***** so it's not exactly a secular state or rather not a state open to any and all 
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  52. ***** so is the situation - now go play in traffic
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