Comments by "Sean Cidy" (@seancidy6008) on "Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers Case Analysis" video.

  1. Being in the jungle is less dangerous than being in the jungle with a serial killer. These girls had been on the beach in previous days and Kremers especially was doubtless a little sunburnt and skin-sensitised, How could they go off a jungle path wearing very short pants exposing their legs, and bare arms too?; they would instantly be scratched by undergrowth and have been forced to step back on the path. Even in the Darién National Park of Panama, nothing like this has ever happened. The jungle does not preferentially disappear hot young women.
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  2. 1.That area has around the trail has parts like that with overhead foilage blocking out the light, but you can walk out of them because this is not the Brazilian jungle that goes on forever or even the Darien Gap. There are people and cattle around and you cannot keep cattle in a jungle. 2 If it was Froon and Kremers alone and lost taking the night photos, both of them were alive and well in the jungle for six nights already without using the camera at all; yet on in the early hours of the 8th April a full week after they went missing they suddenly decided to use the camera at night. By the way, the Panamanian authorities said the night photos were by Froon and show Kremers had died. It had been raining and It takes a month to starve to death. So even if Kremers had died, Froon's only immediate problem was she was lost and in that scenario the phone details must be accepted as proving she (or possibly Kremers) was still alive on the 11th. The searchers, many with previous experience of finding lost tourists in the area were aided by Panamanian special forces in combing though all areas they the girls could have reached, That very intensive search had began on the 6th of April and consisted of sweeps with yelling and using both loud calls and lights at night. It simply is not credible that either Kremers and Froon were able to turn a phone on and off and put it neatly in their backpack yet yet missed this dragnet moving through the area where they were, which must have come close to them while audible for miles away. If they had been lost they would want to be found. Finally the Panamanian government did not say the jungle killed them, according to them it was a cable bridge and that is not in the jungle, it is on the trail.
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  3. I think the German girl realised she had nothing to lose because they could hardly have been planning let to her go and make a complaint against them; would get them 15 years (as it did). They were drunk and that is why it had a happy ending. In Kris and Lianne's case the perpetrators had carefully thought out what they needed to do to get away with it, which was not all that much as Panama has no army or police just a combined entity, and as the old saying goes ' Jack of all trades master of none'. The known facts(who found the remains) leave zero doubt about the identity of the vile perpetrators of this despicable double homicide.
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  4.  @nursejessie8149  Did you hear about the German woman who got lost on a trail in Panama in 2017? An official Panamanian search team found her, then they abducted her and held her captive for days so they could have their way with her. Please Google it. Also that guide the Dutch girl supposedly went without after he convinced them to go on the trail has a farm in the middle of the jungle area where the girls disappeared. He had a review by a tourist as a danger to lone north European women. Those who go to Panama ought to know what they are getting into. If it is normal to let naïve girls go into danger, then I'm glad to be thought strange.
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  5.  @abdell75roussos  Sunburnt? Both the bras looked as if they had been taken off that first day and never put back on again. Eleven days to die and on the last day someone is still strong enough to put the phones in the backpack and securely fasten it. There are a lot of little things like that, and while each one if taken individually admits of an innocent explanation, when you take them as a whole the totality of what we know is pointing away from natural causes. If you wish an expert ask F, he is the great authority on the area where they were lost for 11days and apparently struck deaf and dumb by the sun so that the rescue parties calling constantly for them were unable to make contact.
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  6.  @abdell75roussos  I am redheaded, and once severely burnt myself with a UV lamp. How I cursed myself. But I was not debilitated. What you suggest is far from impossible, yet if one comes down on the side of 'no foul play' there are lot more anomalies stacking up than a double homicide. Yes Kris had red hair, but she was also a noticeably attractive young woman. That would make no difference to the jungle, but to sexual predators it certainly would.
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  7. On the 1st April 2014 after 2pm, by which time they had turned around to go back and were retracing their steps, someone attacked and subdued Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon. Their phones were taken off them. About two hours later one attempted emergency call was made from each of their phones, 12 minutes apart. Had that been Kris and Lisanne, they'd each have made multiple attempts one after the other. So it was almost certainly one man who knew there was no phone reception in the area, and was using each of their phones in turn. Or, or him untying the hands standing over each girl in turn as they tried to made the calls. What is strange is this entailed him already having formulated a long term plan to later leave the phones to be found. He then switched both phones off for 13 hours (inconceivable that Kremers and Froon would have made one failed-to-connect call each to the emergency number, then both given up and switched off). Next morning he switched the phones on, and again made--or more likely had the girls make--attempts to connect to the emergency number. There was only one call by Kremer's but repeated calls by Froon's phone,. On the third try by Froon's phone that morning, to his surprise and no doubt dismay, Froon's phone did connect to a network. There were no more attempt to call the emergency number with Froon's phone, and Froon's phone was left on all night, which ran the battery down. Next morning (3rd April), Kremers's phone made an attempt to call the emergency number that was the last one by either of the phones. Just think about that for a second; it had power and was having the correct pins entered for another 48 hours, yet there was no attempt to call the emergency or any other number by Kremers's phone*. I doubt that either girl was alive after midday of the 5th. That would explain why no PINS for Kremers's phone starting that afternoon. There was the photo on the 8th of Kremer's hair, but that could have been faked on her corpse. The activity without PINS on Kremer's phone until the 11th April was part of a charade being staged by the perpetrator. *Kremers's phone did not need PINs for an emergency call , nether did Froon's. No mystery.
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  8. If you've ever got lost in the woods and you are reading this, you know how difficult it is to die of getting lost. "In life it's not which path you choose, it's whose path you cross". (Wolf Creek 2).
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  9.  @abdell75roussos  A possibility. Not the most plausible one though.
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  10.  @abdell75roussos  You see nothing odd in those two women not hearing the search parties that were traversing the area yelling, because they may have both been "incapacitated" even though one of the women had the energy to switch on and off the phones each day and finally put the phones in the backpack and securely close it on their eleventh day missing, or women in the scratchy jungle with creepy crawlies ECT would take off their bras and leave them in the backpack. I agree there is a simpler explanation than a gang; I think it was F & son and no one else. They know the area like the back of their hand and eph knew hours beforehand from a snapchat communication asking if he was available (he said he was not that day) to guide them that Kris and Lisanne were going a hike by themselves. And days before he had unsuccessfully tried to interest them in an overnight stay at his ranch which is reached by going down the very same trail the girls disappeared on! It is misogynic to think this could have been an accident. They needed a guy with them, but the danger was not the jungle.
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  11.  @TorianTammas  There are people who keep cattle there and you cannot do that in a jungle; it's forest and with scratchy undergrowth off the trail. They had bare arms and shorts, Kris was wearing virtual Daisy Dukes! Do you know that one of the searchers months later found one boot from each girl within 48 hours. The same person found the first remains of Kris and the first remains of Lissane, and these remained the largest pieces of their remains ever found. Can you guess who it was that made all the finds?
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  12.  @artsy38  Well they went down the other side onto the Serpent trail, which is not usually travelled by unguided tourists. They did try to get the guide who had earlier tried to interest KK and LS in a trip down that very same Serpent trail, but he was busy. He was busy during the earliest searches for them too, judging by him being absent from the first week or so. But months later when the search started to encroach beyond Alto Romero when he got started mister eph (for it was he) was almost incredibly successful at finding KK and LS boots and remains.
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  13. Dr Grande's worst ever video. These were two physically fit intelligent adults. Perhaps a chance in a million this was any kind of dual misadventure while lost. Start from the the most obvious thing: that they were a couple of strikingly attractive young women in an isolated area without phone reception, who would have been defenceless, and thus a tempting target for predatory men. The propinquity of what was left of their bodies, bones being fragmented into shards (especially), and one set of remains showing signs of being chemically stripped of flesh makes it ludicrous to think the most plausible explanation is accidents and exhaustion. The sinister night photograph of the back of Kremers’ head shows blood; they were being forced by their captors to walk into a more secluded area, the flash was for light. I strongly suspect they were followed from the town, realized it and tried to call for help but got captured and beaten, then forced deep into the jungle possibly to some shack. The bodies were pulverised and disposed of later. Sadly, when police are confronted with an unsolvable crime they have a powerful motive to write it off as probably not due to foul play. I'm old and over the decades have seen it repeatedly. For example the Babes in the Wood murders (Epping Forest), and the Disappearance of Natalee Holloway, and the case of Julie Ward.
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  14.  @MrMooremelody  Are you serious? The woman who saw them before they set off on the 1stwas stuck by how short their pants were and the skin of their their bare arms and legs, these girls could not have gone off of the trail without being scratched to bits and forced to retreat. Crossing monkey bridge requires putting you arm against steel cables and the bridges they are supposed to have fallen of are on trails. let stick with clothing. Both bras an Kremers's shorts were found. Panamanian authorities say Kremers after removing her denim shorts, so she would be falling in the river with no pants or bra,. Froom died without a bra too. . There is a photograph of the back of Kremers's head in the early hours a full ; week after she went missing in which she is holding her head upright or her corpse is being made being held to look that way This photo was taken by a criminal or Froom. If it was taken by Froom she would have no motive to make Kremers look alive and holding her own head up, and how could Froom do that anyway while she she was busy taking the photograph? Moreover, if it was Froon taking the photo, her hands were remarkable steady. Amway, both were both were alive and well and capable of screaming for help days into a very intensive search of a the area by people who knew it well. If Froom and Kremers didn't answer the calls of Panamanian search & rescues teams and Special Forces soldiers combing though even the most remote and impenetrable parts of the area it could only be because someone was holding them captive and prevented from call. Women lost in the jungle do not strip off to cross a bridge. Their underwear was never found. I strongly object to your offensive imprecations against Lisanne and Kris. You are suggesting they were beyond incredibly stupid AFTER the situation became deadly dangerous. And they could not save themselves in a week. But go ahead and insult them all you want. I can imagine what they would make of your character and intelligence.
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  15.  @stevemorse108  Grande is superbly informative about psychology, and usually very good at true crime. But I disliked his conclusion on this one. I think if he had looked at it like he was considering the purchase of a second car (ie trusting his own judgement) he would have not have bought the no foul play scenario.
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  16.  @scorpiontail2561  The simply inescapable fact is the guide F did it, probably helped by his sons. and has got away with it. He has a reputation with North European women clients, and is blacklisted in Boquete for that reason. He was listed as the prime suspect on the Panamanian police files because he had guilty knowledge.
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  17.  @elizabethkelly2987  The Panamanian government did not want the deathes of Kris and Lisanne to be a case in which perpetrators who abduct, rape and murder Dutch kirls were roaming their tourist attraction areas. There is a lot of rationalization going on in what is said officially but I suspect that any cop worth his salt privately suspects the night photos to be part of a criminal deception.
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  18. ​ @CreamIceMs  Well I am sure they were where they were unable to be heard but why? What you suggest as resolving an anomaly is reasonable, yet in this case there are myriads; when each factoid is examined individually one can see no overall pattern of a malevolent intelligence at work and the fact that these were two striking young women seems irrelevant , yet the evidence must be assessed in its totality rather than arbitrarily hinging on one point. When one proceeds in such a manner the marginal unlikelihoods accumulate into an Everest. Incidentally, It is not jungle, because you cannot keep cattle in a jungle and there are trails, work shacks and scattered dwellings for the herders (including a shack the book co authored by the Panamanian investigating magistrate in the case says the girls spent time in), you cannot keep cows in a jungle. Volunteer and then paramilitary emergency search parties were in that area yelling for days while the phones were being switched on and offin the latter part of a period of a full eleven days. And the those searching were professional guides so experts, and Panamanians trained in how to look for lost people in real jungle like the Darien Gap national park. I think it reasonable to assume their local knowledge, training, and experience enabled them to understand how far sound would travel and to go close enough to rivers to be within earshot. Except in a thunderstorm; now the night photo of a full week after they disappeared and that shows Kris's hair was taken in the early hours during a thunderstorm. Why do you think that photo, the only evidence of either KK and LF during the 11 days, was taken when no one was going to be out and about; it feels clandestine, eh?
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  19.  @nursejessie8149 Panama was successful at keeping it quiet; she escaped after a few days, but the abductors could hardly have planned to let her go. They are not the even the first Dutch girls to die on the trail, there was a supposed suicide before. More sinisterly, a backpacking British man in his twenties vanished from that same town in 2009. On the actual tourist trail up to the summit there are sometimes robberies. The girls didn't know any of that I am sure. The weather that day was excellent, and even on the rougher trail past the summit it is not through jungle at all its at most forest with settlements and cattle with people using paths. There are hikers shacks too. In the rainy season it is rough country with lots of mud but when they the girl were on it isn't could be covered quickly and isn't dangerous at all, at least in respect of the terrain and rivers. The reward offered is a king's ransom in Panama and they were supposed to be alive making calls for 11 days in this inhabited area with no one seeing or hearing them calling for help. A huge search was mounted over that area that over lapped with the calls from the girls phones. When the search hotted up ten weeks later and began to look for culprits, pulverized body parts and pristine belongings started appearing. Some close to a indigenous peoples village . Bones don't float.
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  20. ​ @scorpiontail2561  It is already solved, he just got away with it. He was the only one to say that the girls had gone behind the Pianista, and then he lied by saying that Eileen the young German woman who worked at the language school had told him. When she denied it, he said it was Eilleen's boss who told him . She denied it. The police listed him as suspect for that reason. He met the girls the day before they disappeared and offered them a multi day trip to the distant and village of Alto Romero with a stay at his lodge there. The trail they went missing on the afternoon of the next day while hiking by themselves is on the path to Alto Romero, and their backpack was found months later practically on the doorstep of one of his lodges there by an employee of his. he them found the first clothing and the first remains. He found one boot from each within 48 hours. He is almost certainly the one who suggested that the night photos (likely taken by him near Alto Romero) were taken at the cable bridge. There is guilty knowledge, untruths about how he came by that knowledge, and strong circumstantial evidence over months. No way in hell is he innocent of this double homicide, as anyone who has looked into it is already aware of.
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  21. And conclude it was an accident?
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  22. He is banned from most tourist businesses and hotels in that town. "In life it's not which path you take but whose path you cross'.
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  23. Yes, but his conclusion as to what probably happened was way, way off. I am aghast.
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  24.  @nursejessie8149 The rucksack was never in the river, hence I don't consider what Dr Grande thought probable is even a viable hypotheses.
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  25.  @Darknesstaker  A very special expert on the case is guide F. He met the girls the day before they went missing and reported them missing the day after they went missing. He found their remains and clothing (relatively close to his ranch down the trail they went missing on) , I could go on. The most recent book about the case is by Nina von Rönne who rented a home on F's ranch for several months in 2015. She says he can be very charming but there there is a frightening side to him.
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  26. According multiple people but especially 'F', you cannot go off the trail Lissane and Kris went on and get lost in the jungle because you literally cannot go off the trail where it is through the jungle. Where the trail is through jungle, that jungle forms impenetrable walls to the trail. Beyond that part you can go off the trail, but there the trail is through patches of forests with paths to cleared pasture land with people cattle herding, going on errands and working their farms. What 'F' says is the danger is to go too far down the trail and forget the time. I don't think anyone with a mental age of over ten years could fail to understand that if you walk too far from civilisation and find yourselves in an unknown area after nightfall, you stop moving, wait for dawn, and then retrace your steps.
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  27. 'F' found Kris's boot on the 18th June. Two days before he had been present when Lissane's boot was found very close to where the backpack had been previously found! All this on the doorstep of his farm! Are we expected to believe strangers were repeatedly going to this isolated village where F is an important man to frame him by leaving things near his property he might have received the $30,000 reward for finding? It is possible, but hardly likely.
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  28. Denizens of area around the trailhead urged the girls to not go further by themselves; because of them being two rather naïve pretty foreign females who might be targeted when isolated from help. It was that and not because of concern about them being unable to cope with the terrain, as while the trail is through jungle and fairly challenging, it is intended for people of much older ages that these young women and less fit than they to walk for fun,; there is a definite path with a clear end at the summit, which they reached and took selfies at. A few hours later both of their phones called the emergency number. But then their phones WERE TURNED OFF AND LEFT OFF FOR 14 HOURS. That is clear cut evidence of someone else having control of their phones within hours of them reaching the summit. Next day a couple of French tourists were told by local people it was not advisable to go on the trail because screams had been heard in the jungle the night before. Nary a hint anywhere of this case being death by misadventure. Beginning with their phones being turned off for the best part of a day after an single emergency call each, and ending with the obviously deliberate scattering over a improbably large area of manipulated remains (one bone from each girl found on the SAME sandbar, virtually the whole skeletons fragmented by no known natural process, no trace of either head, a shoe floating upriver and a backpack appearing several weeks later in pristine condition without a trace of ever being in river or humid jungle) amounts to conclusive circumstantial proof of a vile double homicide for reasons better left unmentioned. Grande has made himself ridiculous in the eyes of all people with a modicum of common sense.
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  29.  @TorianTammas  For an elderly debilitated person or a troubled person not very interested in surviving , or a couple of mentally limited deaf and dumb ones , I could believe eleven days (we know from the phone logs that is how long they were being switched on and off) lost in that area. But these were two young women at their physical and mental peak with a thirst for life and search parties were calling for them all over the place for days towards the end of the eleven days. Were they struck dumb by the 'jungle' (actually cloud forest with grazing and herding paths though it).
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  30.  @TorianTammas  "They were on a trail in short shorts so they left it to go into a scratchy forest and then stayed put as people were calling for them for days? . The phones were being used for eleven days, and for several of those day there were search parties of experts combing the area where their clothing and backpacks were found. The searchers were also yelling; are we supposed to believe Kris and Lisanne were both struck deaf and dumb? There are people on the herding trails through the forest all over that area in daytime, and the reward was a life changing amount of money for a rural Panamanian. There are innocent answers for any one point but when you take the anomalies as a whole it simply does not have the flavour of an accident. I doubt it was a double suicide.
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  31.  @eirikrsland1399  Sadly, they need a man around not another girl because men will fight and other men understand that. Naivety runs in the Kremers family, she had been to South America before with her parents. I have read (apropos the 'hired gun' theory of pair bonding) that women tourists in some counties often end up in relationships with a local man, simply to be able to get some peace. That said, you don't have to go to other countries, and there are cases (eg 1991 Austin yogurt shop) where stuff happened that I am certain would not have been attempted if a man had been present.
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  32. They started at 10.45 am and took 3 hours up to the peak, then kept going and went down the other side on a rougher continuation of the trail for an hour. It is known where the last daytime photo (Kremers on a boulder in a small stream) was taken and that it was taken at 2pm. They had been taking photos of all points of interest, but not far along from the location of picture 508 is a photogenic little waterfall, yet there is no photo of it. The lack of any more photos would be explained by them turning around to go back at 2pm. Such a decision would be very plausible because by that point the girls been already been walking for 4 hours, 3 of them uphill. Going back they they'd already have photos of everything on the route. The photos cannot lie, unlike the phone activity. Calls from their phones may have been by the perp, and made to deceive investigators, but as you say something bad was underway when both girls' cell phones tried to connect to the emergency number 2.5 hours after the 2pm photo. If they had not turned around and started back at 2pm and instead went on one hour it would mean they'd be accepting a five hour walk back. I just cannot see them choosing what, if they had eventually returned safe, would have amounted to a 10 hours walk (half of that up inclines). However, let us assume they wanted for some reason to keep on, and did not not turn around and go back, but instead kept walking in the same direction; no matter how hard they pressed on, they simply could not have reached the cable bridge over the Serpent river ravine in 2.5 hours from where they were at 2pm. So, whatever the apparent attempted emergency number calls after 4.30 pm were for, and whoever was using the girls cellphones to make them, those calls had nothing to do with an accident crossing the river cable bridge. Moreover, and this is a very telling point I think, the cable bridge over the Serpent river ravine is on the trail. So even if they went off the trail they must have got back on it to get to the cable bridge, and even if they were confused about what way they were going they knew they certainly must have know they had not crossed the cable bridge before and so to cross it was go further away from Boquete as it was getting dark. They had researched the trail on the internet before going so knew crossing the cable bridge would not be a quicker route to civilization than than turning around and going back down the trail. Crossing the cable bridge was going into part of trail they had never been on in order to hike though the night. The emergency calls, whoever made them, time the fateful events as being underway by 4.30pm . Yet no more calls were made for another 14 hours and the phones were switched off during that time.
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  33. The contrarians notwithstanding, everything inescapably points to a double homicide. After the initial fruitless search the Panamanian attorney general announced the official conclusion of the authorities was girls had fallen in the river and been swept out to sea. THEN, as if by magic, the possessions and remains appear downstream from the Serpent river monkey bridge. The killer must take us for imbeciles to think that we would find girls lost in a foreign jungle/ forest trying to call the emergency number ONCE each then giving up trying for 13 hours credible. The next day they supposedly tried to call the emergency number three times them gave up by midday and never tried to phone the emergency number ever again! In the normal circumstances girls that age are never off of their phones and here they are lost in the jungle and desperate to get out, and they are trying to call the emergency services less than they call family and friends on an average day at home in Holland? And to top all they completely give up trying to call the emergency number after 48hours although their phones are active for several days afterwards? Arnold Donaldson has it right. Criminals preying on undefended young women, and trying to cover their tracks is an ineluctable conclusion.
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  34. Yes.
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  35. Sun bleaching is irregular because of shade and angles ; Kris Kremers's pelvis had been soaked in lye to the extent the marrow was denatured, and it was uniformly greenish not blanched from UV light with mottling. Kris and Lisanne went on the hike on the 1 April 2014, they unsuccessfully called an emergency number before 5pm that day. Get it into your noggin that this trail has nowhere they could have got lost or fallen into a ravine reachable by 5pm, and by then they'd have been hours into retracing their steps for an 8 hour hike. One one of their phones was switched on the 11th April 2014, and switched off with 22% power remaining. So by the accident hypothesis at least one of the girls was alive in the forest for ten days. The initial couple of days search could have missed them as it was not thorough, but starting on the 6th, a huge police and rescue team with knowledge of the area search began to comb ALL the forest where they were later supposed to have been by the accident conjecturers. So for five days a sweep though the lightly wooded areas (which would include the river banks by locals helping police and with a substantial reward by the standards of the country) missed her, and she didn't hear the helicopters didn't scream which would carry a long way (young women can scream very loud). Then for five days at least one of them was alive and managed to avoid a dragnet search of even the deepest forest. Sorry to use the word 'avoid' but I think you have to remember these girls were not fugitives. The bones had not been pecked bitten or otherwise marked by animals, or abraded as in a river bed. A piece of Kremers's pelvis and a part of of Froon's ribs were found together beside a river but even it they died together upstream in a fall into the river, the odds are long of these pieces washing up on the same sandbank. A section of Froon's skin found 72 days later was rolled into a ball and seemed not to have even begun to decompose. These remains were found in the area around the hamlet of Alto Romero. The rucksack was very close to Alto Romero indeed and very few people think it showed signs of being having got there by floating on the river. Kremers's shorts were only a few kilometers away. It's abundantly clear, to me at least, that Alto Romero has at least one very calculating psychopath living in it. He thinks he is so clever with his fake emergency calls and leaving the phone to be found and pulverizing the bodies to blame it on the river. But really, he made a bad mistake not just disappearing everything, because all the improbabilities add up to a cast iron case for the deaths of Kremers and Froom being no accident. In a small community like Alto Romero, person(s) of that character would have acquired a bad reputation. I dare say sooner or later t his neighbours or his criminal associates will get tired of having him around to commit another crime get caught, so they'll deal with him in their own fashion. Kris and Lisanne, may you rest in peace.
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  36. To make you think what you are thinking.
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  37. There has never been a case of two people disappearing like that in a forest . And the first occurrence happened to be of two beautiful young girls. And the guide who offered them an overnight stay in his lodge near the remote village of Alto Romero, which they declined, ten weeks later can't set foot outside his Alto Romero lodge's door without tripping over Kris and Lisanne's remains, for which he tried to claim the $30,00 reward. If you believe that is not evidence of a double homicide, then I have some raffle tickets to sell you.
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  38. I thought that originally, but it depends how far they went. If they went much beyond their last photo ( the nighttime photos can hardly have been by either of them) and got into the cow pasture, then they could have wandered off the trail, because there the trail is very poorly marked. Whenever killed them has to have an unrivalled knowledge of the area and confidence in their ability to know where to take them. Men who herd cattle in the area would fit that bill. If Lisanne and Froom were in the cow pasture and wandering about for even a short time , they would be highly visible and obviously not part of a larger group so undefended by men. That would make them an easy 'mark'. What is it they say about avoiding muggings?; 'look as if you know exactly where you are going'. Kremers was so striking she might have had trouble anyway.
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  39. Not much doubt about that.
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  40.  @michaelguzman7367  He has long had an insalubrious reputation. Reputable tourist businesses in Boquete wanted nothing to do with him before Kris and Lisanne set foot in Panama. When you put that with his being in communication with KK and LS the morning of their fatal hike and him being incredibly successful in finding their remains (though he could not find them when they were alive), it is difficult to avoid a certain conclusion.
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  41.  @nursejessie8149  I do not envy those in your care, I thought nurses needed common sense. The trail ends at the cable "bridge", which is a scary tightrope with 2 hand ropes and they would never have willingly crossed it even if there were not warning signs advising against proceeding into the jungle. The remains were found in an area that is across two large rivers so them crossing large rivers new to them would mean they'd know they were going away from the way back to the town: an impossibility. The taxi driver who took them there was found drowned in a pool though only in his 30s was surely in on it, (similar to Julie Ward). The clean and dry rucksack was placed there soon after an intensive search dragnet of the area assisted by the Dutch had begun, and was intended to get rid of the investigation. The calls made on the phone were done at the same time each day by someone with a watch, which they didn't have with them. Their underwear was not found. The remains were not the work of animals, skin had been rolled into a ball.
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  42.  @MrMooremelody  The night time photos on the 8th, a week after they went missing, show a cliff edge, and the back of Kremers's head with FRESH blood on Kermers's temple. Who was holding the camera so steady on those photos, which are like a storyboard sequence? The author of the fiction? Kremers's looks would have made her the main target of a crime, so I think she was alive longer. Maybe not till the 8th though. Codes for the cell phones are something the girls would have told any perpetrator(s) willingly, not realizing the purpose was to manufacture a 'lost and injured' narrative and get away with their homicide. Remember that all the phone information is, like the night time photos, highly suspect because it is data that in in our through being been gift wrapped and delivered rather that discovered. It cannot be separated from what is quite possibly a cunning stratagem by a an unidentified perp to mislead everyone about what happened. It's all fruit of the poison tree
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  43.  @stevemorse108  Dr Grande is maybe being tangential, and because he is worried about being sued. I would be in his position. If Amanda was guilty she would have had the key to her friend Meredith's door rather than having totry and kick it in. Yes, I know a lot about that case. I think Amanda had a few guys in Italy, but that is not all that unusual for young women of her generation. Lisanne was shy, Kris would have been a perfect friend for her in Holland. Panama is not Holland though. Like Knox, Kris and Lissanne's beauty were their downfall. The Nina Burleigh book was called The Fatal Gift of Beauty, and correctly said she was innocent as the Italian Supreme court definitive ruled. One of the few precedents for the exoneration was the reversal of former Italian PM Andreotti murder conviction , which was also a Perugia prosecution.
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  44. People die accidently and otherwise in that town all the time. If all the murder victims were to stand up they'd have a hell of a population problem! Seriously, Boquete is not the laid back place the Western holidaymakers think it is. The locals and expatriates who are making money from tourism are in cahoots with the magistrates keep all that stuff quiet, which is why a few sad commenters here may actually believe the Panamanian authorities are objective assessor of the facts about Lisanne and Kris.
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  45. Dr Grande says an unknown person of interest is unlikely to be so "irregular" as to leave evidence consistent with foul play where it is bound to be found, and so there was no guilty intentionality at work. However, the trajectory of events established by the contents of the backpack was that the girls had gone down the rough and isolated part of the trail on the other side of the peak. That was a watershed in the investigation because it had not been thought likely, and having become known it moved the focus of inquiries much further away from the very many people living on the Boquete side of the the trail up to the summit that divides the two trails. Where the backpack was found is just outside the search area several kilometers down river from a dangerous monkey bridge on the trail that the girls could have reached and fallen into the river from had they gone on (another four hours!) . The remains of the girls were strewn around a bank of the aforementioned river near an Indian village. Dr Grande's conclusion is valid in relation to the Indians; yes, but though the possessions and remains finds made foul play more likely in in the minds of some observers, it did not in Panamanian officialdom's, who were the ones most important for the perpetrator to convince. In any case, it had the effect of moving the inquiries and search further away from those residing along the trail on the Boquete side. Most of the people who knew the girls were on the trail were those saw them as they walked past back yards on the initial three hour hike from the entrance to the trail up to the summit. In the Central Park Five case it emerged that, far from just being unlucky in running into a gang as originally assumed, the jogger-who was unusually attractive- had been spotted in a crowded part of the park and followed to an isolated area. The same thing happening with the striking Kremers is plausible. What probably happened was the girls turned around to come back after the photo at the little stream( they'd been walking for four hours) and quickly ran into the person(s) following them. One point that Dr Grande might consider is that if faked by a perpetrator the cellphone activity from the 1st April to 11th of April was begun almost immediately and continued with in the expectation that the phone would be kept for some time then left to be found and support an accidental interpretation. To me that would have been very quick thinking , or the result of a pre-existing plan. The night photos of the 8th April also indicate someone putting on record in a camera intended to be later left to be found, a narrative of girls lost in the wilderness and badly injured. Yet knowing to make it work he'd be keeping the camera and cell phone for another two months despite them being extremely incriminating; it would take a very confident methodical man. One could say it did not work, but this fellow if he exists is a Panamanian who knows all he has to worry about is the Panamanian authorities. And he used the contents of the backpack to gave them an illustrated timestamped narrative that satisfied them of not one but two foreign girls losing their way, having serious accidents, and fiddling with their cellphone in a relatively small area for 11 days without being seen or heard by a search and rescues team with abundant local knowledge that was combing every inch of it. This is quite a scenario to make people accept, yet he has done it. If such a culprit/screenwriter exists, who is he? My best guess would be someone who lives on a farm along the Boquete side of the trail, not over the summit. Maybe with his brothers.
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  46. It is bad enough people averring he was the killer just because he said (and later denied), he met them Monday, the first the day before they went missing; was the one to report them missing on Wednesday the third; the one who somehow knew they had gone behind the Pianista (those who he said had told them said they hadn't and didn't know it themselves); the one who first suggested the night photos were taken at the cable bridge; the one to find the first remains--near one of his properties he'd offered the girls a stay at withal, but now we have someone saying that the night photo was an accidental exposure rather than a creative found footage fiction. People can be so cruel.
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  47. No evidence was found for several weeks. The Panamanian Attorney general announced that Kremers and Froon had been swept out to sea in a river. Then after the Panamanian authorities ruled out foul play, (this was ten weeks after they disappeared) all sorts of evidence starts appearing. masses of fragmented, but nor abraded bones from the corpse of Froom, but only two much larger bones from Kremers, one of them a relatively huge piece of her pelvis. A cheap backpack that did not look like it had enough water damage or mold to have been in a rainy jungle for month, let alone in a river, and inside the non-waterproof backpack electronics in perfect working order. That is some value for money backpack! So all these items of very variable buoyancy, size and and weight were found in different places? Nope, all were found kilometers downstream from the monkey bridge over the Serpent river (fairly consistent with the river accident hypothesis) and on one one little stretch of the Serpent river that is almost on the doorstep of the farm belonging to guide F, who was searching hard for the girls with his unrivalled local knowledge. There was an intelligence at work in the backpack and remains appearing when they did and where they did. One that did not want to reveal itself, but overthought it.
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  48. Strangely. one girl's family thought it was an accident, and some Dutch journalists too. Living in a very well ordered and high trust society like the Netherlands is no preparation for understanding the the realities of Panama. A few years ago a German woman got lost in Panama and was found and ABDUCTED by members of the search and rescue team and assaulted for days until she escaped . In 2009 a twentysomething male British backpacker disappeared in the same Panamanian town the girls were staying in. Moreover, people have been robbed on the trail, but the Panamanians keep all that very quiet and I strongly suspect the girls didn't know enough to understand how much of a chance they were taking. The were warned but didn't comprehend the danger being alluded to was criminal violence. In my opinion, Grande was inappropriately snippy about the girls, as if he thinks Panama is the victim here. Quite the opposite, I have read a bit more; the standard tourist trail up to the summit is has residences backing onto it. It is possible to accidently keep going after the summit and be on a trail that you would walk for days before reaching a town, However the girls knew exactly where they were because they turned and photographed the town several kilometers away below them from the summit before continuing on down the other side on a trail that is NOT jungle but at most forest because there are people living in the area and they drive their cattle (you cannot keep cattle in a jungle) along the trails. They had been told they had to turn and come back from the summit but kept going probably because it was a sunny day and exceptionally easy going being very dry they went on for a couple of hours and reached a stream that has been identified from photos. In In the rainy season it is exhausting country with lots of mud but when they the girls were on it the going was underfoot was easy and the rivers were not in spate. The cable bridge was not necessary to cross the river, it could be forded. The reward offered is a king's ransom in Panama and they were supposed to be alive making calls for 11 days in this inhabited area with no one seeing or hearing them calling for help. A huge search by people that know the area well and have found lost backpackers there before overlapped with the calls from the girls phones. The calls were at a certain time each day and once when connected the connection was immediately broken, When the search got mote intense up ten weeks later and began , pulverized body parts and pristine belongings started appearing. The backpack was found close to an indigenous peoples village. Both girls' bras were inside. As for the bones and fragments of bones that supposedly floated down the Serpent river and ended up on one small sandbank, those were clearly never in the water: bones don't float.
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  49.  @14ОБрСпНГРУ  Where Kris and Lissane met a grislily fate is cloud forest not jungle. There are cattle herding paths through it; you cannot keep cattle in a jungle.
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  50. Anything along the lines of a your proposed explanation of an accidental or at least no foul play death is plausible for one person because some individuals are troubled or easily confused. At first blush, two dying together that way over eleven days in a sparsely populated but inhabited area with herders by day, and their phones (sans last messages) and fragments of a few of their bones being found all in the same five mile stretch of forest is barely credible for young fit women with a thirst for life. It is certainly possible, but on first principles I would say misadventure is far from the least unlikely way they met their deaths. There was one attempted emergency call from each phone at just before 5pm on the day of the hike, then there was a 14 hour gap between the original attempted emergency call, one from from each phone, and the next phone activity, which was one failed emergency call from each phone the following morning. Crucially, the phones were both switched off one hour after the first emergency call attempt (one from each phone twelve minutes apart). Are we supposed to believe that after the failed emergency call neither made any immediate retry and instead decided to be early to bed in a strange jungle, and so in order to get a good nights sleep (and not be bothered by people calling them?) switched their phones off and left them off for a whole 13 hours? The photos on the 8th were taken in the dead of night during a rainstorm. It stinks of clandestine activity being done when no one was up and about in the area to observe the movements. There had been no activity on any phone since the 6th and there was none until the 11th, so a 48 hour gap either side of the night photos. Nary an attempted call after the third day, so 5 days before the night photos the attempted call had completely stopped, but and one phone was switched on the 11th (after the aforementioned four day gap when both were switched off. To think the devices were in the hands of lost girls, one would have to believe the girls were behaving like fugitives for some reason. Why did the local expert they hired, who earned his living because tourists paid him to be on their hikes, not give KK and LS a warning not to go on one alone especially that one w, which he is the great expert on The girls could hardly have got cautioned to not go down the Serpent trail alone because they had hired him for accompanying them on the trip the next day. The found out they were at a loose end that moring and Eileen in the snapchat exchange of messages that morning asked if he was available,; she was not given (to pass on) such a don't go a hike without me warning for KK and LS, although that morning our friend knew they were probably going a hike alone, and he had told them about the Serpent trail at least indirectly while offering them through Eileen a stay at his lodge down it. It is a fact that he told journalists he had met Kris and Lisanne at the school and in town. Later he denied he ever had met them. That is very reminiscent of Van Der Sloot and his mutually inconsistent accounts. Were Kris and Lisanne foolhardy? Yes a bit, they met some rough nut guys and may even have been swimming topless with them on the 30th. Though their trusted professional had inexplicably omitted to say don't, going down an isolated trail (he had told them about) was contrary to common sense and the natural fearfulness that young women have for good reason. For reasons of state, Panama preferred the obvious killer should escape justice thinking it would soon be forgotten. Nope.
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  51. That is actually far more believable than the the narrative that the Panamanian authorities have espoused about their deathtrap bridge that girls take their pants off to cross, and fordable rivers that dissolve marrow like a lye bath and function like a wood chipper A murder-suicide would not explain the peculiar condition of the remains and all the bones but one floating rib being from the lower half of the bodies of Froon and Kremers, plus items with totally different weight size and buoyancy ending up on the same few yards of sand bank, where the main suspect and his employees 'found' them, and tried to claim the $30,000 reward . It was after the backpack finders were denied a reward that the fragmented leg bones of Froom and the pelvis fragment and bit of floating rib were found, by the chief suspect of all people. Small world!
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  52.  @Fraukie_H  Normal killers get caught, these ones (or their families who were drawn into it after the fact) were crafty enough to prepare a cover story story with the calls just in case, but the calls were at exactly the same time each day and had wrong pins. They girls were already dead, that is why the photos stop showing them. The evidence of the remains, pulverising of bone and skin rolled into a ball is the work of someone not something. Also the perfect condition rucksack that had not been in the river and was found just after a very close search had began with help from the Dutch and special dogs. The bras are inside and shorts are miles away, but the underpants' were not found at all. My bet is impulsive young men committing an outrage and then asking for help, and the authorites not wanting to admit tourists are at risk in their town. I think the people who were accessories after the fact and the actual perps were not sure what to do; maybe the plan was to store the rucksack with the phones an plant it in in a better way, but the search somehow alarmed the conspiracy and to have incriminating evidence stored became too dangerous so it was clumsily dumped. Quite possibly whoever had the stuff was not a perp but merely an accessory after the fact. Or maybe the remains being found immediately was necessary to stop a search that was making them nervous. The timing suggests the evidence was left to close the matter as accidental death and halt the investigation. But that was a mistake on the perps' part because they made some mistakes and anyone who looks at it in a hardheaded way definitely know this was a double homicide. mot any kind of misadventure. They didn't willingly leave the trail, because it ends at the so called "bridge" and there are warning signs it is inadvisable to proceed unless equipped for the jungle. Furthermore, a Dutchman with mountaineering experience said the cable tightrope (one rope is all there is for your feet) "bridge" with a 70 foot drop was frightening to him, and the girls would never have been on it in the first place to fall off (what the Panamanians say happened). There were multiple townspeople involved in setting them up and others drawn into the cover up I expect and one day it will come back to haunt them. The taxi driver who drove them to the begining of the trail has since drowned supposedly after having a heart attack, he was in his early thirties.
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  53. I suspect it was standard depravity and cunning. There is a photo of the girls at the summit where the tourist orientated trail ends at 1pm, and beyond that is a barely there trail through obviously dangerous and slow to cross terrain: super scary slippery precipitous and with animal skulls displayed on branches. Adventurous young European men have said a few hundred yards into that rudimentary trail (having ignored the signs telling walkers not to proceed any farther) they became alarmed and turned back. One of the girls had asthma and they'd hardly have been planning on moving at night so had to start back it was a 6 hour round trip and at real altitude. They'd never have gone on past the warnings let alone used the cable tightrope to cross the river they were hypothesized to have fallen into. These were not hard core trekkers, but a couple of nice young girls wearing a minimum of clothing who wanted to work with children and had a day to spend. Dutch TV went to the area and the locals who know the trail best insisted that the last photos of the girls show them coming back down the trail, which is what one would expect. Fascinatingly, someone whose been there mentioned the tourist trail has shacks visible from it it every few hundred yards along.. What probably happened is they were dragged of the track and abducted by backwoods degenerates when they were coming back down. Maybe after they were seen, possibly harassed, going up. Their phones were turned off for 14 hours from that day. There were screams heard in the jungle that night because the next day a French couple was told this by a friendly local who dissuaded them from going in the jungle for that reason. The locals around the begining of the trail had tried to stop the girls going on even the tourist orientated trail by themselves. The backpack was found soon after what for Panama was huge money rewards were being offered.
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  54. I take a different view. Kris and Lissane have been established to be victims of a double homicide. The name and face of the man who did it is well known. Kris's parents met him, but Panama chose to go with its national interest and ignore his vile crime, so their attorney general ruled the deaths were an accident. Then there was a reward offered and the location of the finds of Lissane's and Kris's possessions and remains, and the identity of who made the finds, identified the culprit and proves the case against him beyond reasonable doubt. The only mystery remaining is why anyone continues to call it a mystery.
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  55.  @justusgoedhart5255  The Netherlands is a high trust society.(Humankind: A Hopeful History came out of there). Not all its folk are saints of course but they think their society is the normal human condition whereas it is actually at an extreme. In the Holloway case in Aruba, I am sure many in the Netherlands thought Van Der Sloot's story about her having gone to swim with sharks was plausible, until he was convicted in the death of another young woman in Peru. In the case of Julie Ward in Kenya, she was supposed to have gone off the main road to cross an extremely difficult terrain where she became stuck and was, according to a country trying to protect its tourism industry, got eaten by lions. Unfortunately for them her father happened to be a British multi millionaire and got the official verdict of accidental reversed. There was a trial at which the game reserve ware wardens prosecuted for murder were revealed to had persuaded people to give them an alibi by falsifying records. The semi official guide found guilty over the two French women in Argentina also persuaded others to make false entries to the records to provide an alibi. You will be told during the relevant time our person of interest was at the doctors; don't you believe it.
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  56.  @justusgoedhart5255  Being open minded is important but as with most things, there comes a point where it becomes counter productive. Abductive inference (forgive the pun): "process that goes from observations to explanations within a more general context or theoretical framework".
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  57. The bras being off was probably intended by the killers as an indication the girls had gone swimming.
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  58. The smiles were an hour before the last photo; the smiles by way of a celebration at the top of the touristy ascending trail, because they'd reached to the top, and very much ahead of schedule, which made them ebullient. Their mood could would stay at that level? I agree their remains were clearly tampered with, and that rules out an accidental death for either of them.
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  59. IF the girls were not abducted on the 1st April, but simply become lost, the photographs taken in the early hours of the 8th of April must have been taken by Froon, who would have no reason to fake Kremers being alive. Therefore, in the non abduction scenario, both Froon and Kremers must have been alive on the 8th. Yet there was no attempt to call the emergency number on their phones after the 3rd. FIVE DAYS BOTH OF THEM ALIVE AND NOT CALLING THE EMERGENCY NUMBER. For the lost theory to be true either Krmers or Froon must have been alive on the 11th. Yet even the most heavily forested places they possibly might have been were went into and searched closely by the local rescue team with a great deal of local knowledge assisted by Panamanian Special Forces (trained by the US green berets) begining on the 6th. The search teams were yelling and all the girls had to do is scream back and they would have both been found in those 48hours because they were both alive as late as the 8th according to the 'lost theory',. At night there were lights. The 'they got lost ' school of thought need to remember that in their preferred scenario these young women (not deaf mutes) WANTED to be found. At least one of them was still alive on the 11th according to the phone data which the 'losters' must accept. Yet she was not found, did not hear the shouts or seen or the lights. We have to bear in mind this person was certainly not hiding from the search in the losters' scenarios, so none of their conjectures actually 'fly' as a real world event. As for the backpack being found with money and constituting evidence that a killer would not have left, the phone data prov if there was a killer was preparing a 'lost' narrative from the first day with fake calls to emergency services. So in an abduction scenario, a perpetrator had from the morning of the day after they were kidnapped (at the latest) formulated a plan to kill them both and get away with it by creating an confirmation of the 'lost scenario on the phones, and much later leaving them to be found. Someone who could think up such a scheme would understand leaving the money in the backpack would be a good idea. Before the backpack or any other trace of the girls was found, the Panamanian government though its attorney general had announced that Froon and Kremers's bodies had been in a river and swept out to sea. Whoever abducted them had intended from the very begining to eventually leave the phones to be found. Once Panamanian law ruled the double disappearance involved no crime, the perpetrators thought they were safe. Moreover, there had been a new and very high reward of $30,000 offered and the leaving the backpack must have seemed a low risk way of claiming it. Especially if it could be planted downstream from the monkey bridge over the Serpent river. The person who found the backpack is am Indian woman but has connections to one of the main suspects, who lives nearby on a farm. Moreover, it was none other than this same this 'person of interest' male who discovered some of the subsequent remains of Kremers and Froon, which were found after there was there was a refusal to pay any of the reward for finding the backpack. This happened ten weeks after Froom and Kremers went missing, and by that time everywhere along the trail and out in every direction from it had been searched very thoroughly; it was hardly possible to put the backpack there and say these things had been missed. Moreover it would have been risky to move in that area with incriminating items while there was to much search activity and people wanting to claim the reward being alert to anything suspicious, especially from our person of interest who was associated with the case in the media, The search had began to verge on but had not yet taken in the person of interest's home area, which happened to be downriver from the cable bridge over the ravine ; so it was was not exculpatory for the backpack and remains to be found near his farm at all. He didn't have much choice but to leave the backpack virtually on the dorstep of hais farm if he wanted to plant it downstream from the monkey bridge in an area he felt secure moving around in and where he has connections which could be used as proxies to claim the reward. The fake emergency calls deception and leaving the phones for a post hoc record of the girls getting getting lost and attempting to contact emergency services was quite a ingenious stratagem. Almost too clever, unless the person had some occupational link in his everyday life to the possibility of tourists getting lost that bought such an ploy to victimize tourists and pass it of as a them perishing in a accident to his mind readily. The emergency calls ploy (and the initial abduction) also required him having confidence in his knowledge of where on the trail the phones of tourists would not connect. Kremers and Froon lost the ability to make calls at 1.39pm, and the last photo was 2.15pm. Pretty precise. Our person of interest guides tourist along this trail. He has also began denying that he ever met Kremers and Froon, though that contradicts his earlier account.
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  60. A good theory explains multiple observations. You have a theory for each observation.
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  61. From what I have read those Indians just want to be left in peace with their traditional community life. They might be a deadly dangerous group if they thought someone was a threat to their families, but collectively they are careful to avoid trouble.
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  62. The fake emergency calls did not connect, so the phone had to be found for the authorities to know about them. That is why the electronics (phone ) were kept until weeks later then left . The perps or someone they turned to for help were pretty cunning, and had a plan in making the calls over several days to later leave the phone to be found. Having money in the backpack when it was found was really clever of the perpetrators, or those helping with the cover up.
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  63. Be aware that the Panamanians said they fell off of a bridge, and the bridge was on the trail.
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  64. There is a search and rescue team for the area and they have always found the missing tourists before. Moreover, Panamaia doed not have police or army, they have a paramilitary security, with elite squads trained by US Special Forces. The most elite units in the Panamanian special unit were assisting the search and rescue and they combed through the entire area shouting and using lights too. The photos indicated Kremers and Froom were alive on the 8th. Unless this was some kind of suicide pact between them, neither were ever lost the jungle. They were abducted and hidden by someone who thinks he is clever, but fools foolish people only. He is not kidding anyone else.
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  65. So what? 99.9% of the time nothing drastic is going to happen to you doing stuff like that. They were the 0.1% who ran into a one in a million psycho, and nothing can protect people living their life from that.
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  66. No Dr Grande, no-one, either the family they were staying with or any employees of the language school, noticed the girls were missing until the guide did the next morning. The school intern, a pretty German girl who had sometime on Tuesday phoned the guide to book him to take her, Kris and Lisanne to his strawberry farm, met the guide at 8am for the booked trip, then went to Kris and Lisanne's lodgings, where the German girl and guide were given the key to the girls' room and looked around at about 9am. Before going to the police station? Nope, the guide and school employee just went on the trip to the strawberry farm. It was when they got back that evening that they went to the police station to report Kris and L:issane missing at 7pm. The school employee is certainly innocent, she is an Amanda Knox type; merely a little slow on the uptake in an extraordinary situation. We must each draw our own conclusion about the other personage.
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  67. @Back2 Nature Then so was Kris Kremers. I know a vast amount about Amanda in Perugia; if she was guilty she would have had the key to Meredith's room, so she could have retrieved the lamp without trying to break the door down. The man convicted of killing Ms Kercher (Rudy Guede) had met Meredith, who knew him as an acquaintance of her boyfriend. What probably happened is Guede simply knocked on the door when Meredith was alone in the house and she opened the door to him and was forced back inside and murdered. Guede was the one who faked a burglary, even though he was a burglar of sorts. Intentional or not, it was a huge red herring and confused almost everyone for years just like the backpack contents. Meredith's keys were never found, neither were Kris and Lissane's. Basically, Guede killed Meredith all by himself, and the guide killed Kris and Lisanne, quite possibly by himself.
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  68. Dr Grande's verdict coincided with what the Panamanian authorities had announced before there was any evidence discovered. Panama had a tourist business reason for the fell in a river theory, and then a confirmation bias for slandering t Ms Kremers and Ms Froom. It is a slander because only someone of subnormal survival instincts or actually suicidal could be plausibly thought to get lost for eleven days (one phone was being switched on and off for that time, we know this because 9 weeks later both phones were found inside the backpack) in an area that size with local people searching and not be able to just shout and get help. It is very sad that the 'objective' viewpoint is in accordance with the contempt the murderer(s) had for Lissane Froom and Kris Kremers.
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  69.  @kevlarcardhouse252  You are wrong about Mr Kremers, he thinks there was foul play, and he also thinks the guide is not telling the truth about Kris and Lissane having arranged a guided walk of the Pianista trail on the day after they went on it themselves. These were well brought up young women who would have stuck to an agreement. Furthermore the guide originally gave a detailed and vivid account of having met Kremers and Froon the day before they went missing; now he says he never met them. I don't see how anyone can make a mistake like that
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  70.  @nigelhaywood9753  If I had to bet on either the guide they spoke to to day before and who had unsuccessfully offered them a multi day guided hike to and overnight stay at his ranch at Alto Romero which is where their bones were found, by him ten weeks later having killed them , OR any other combination of lost and foul play ones , I would unhesitatingly chose to bet on him being the culprit. Moreover it is far from being a balance of probability decision; I would give very long odds against him being innocent of having murdered them.
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  71.  @Peanut_taco_muffin  Panamanian pathologists' reported Lisanne had shin splints, so she covered a lot of miles (although it could have been in circles or out and back in a different direction each time (like spokes from a wagon wheel hub) returing to where Kris lay injured because Lisanne did not want to leave her except for a limited amounts of time . Being fit for walking means Lisanne's voice was strong. I think a lost scenario works if we assume Lisanne was not using her physical capabilities properly. Kris being over confident and becoming debilitated in a fall then and Lisanne getting neurotic under the stress and not going for help in a determined way can work as a realistic scenario for me. Alto Romero being under ten miles from Boquete and having scores of people living, working and travelling between it and the overlook each day is troublung because it makes Lisanne's actions seem farcical, if not tantamount to suicide. Dr Grande does not canvass such a possibility and he has some experience in these matters; he say this seems to have been an accident, but with the important caveat that there is no really satisfactory explanation. Its not Seven Degrees of Kevin Bacon type links I am talking about no one denies the guide was hired by them on the morning of the hike and he then he found scattered pieces of what was left of them after they went some way down the trail to his ranch. Small world! If he had told them to on no account go hiking without a guide none of this would happened. But he clearly did not because a couple of hours later they did just that and on a trail he may well have discussed with them. By his own account he went as far as the entrance to the paddocks on the 3rd looking for them; that was on the correct trail out of many possible ones. Lucky guess would be a possible explanation. but when asked by the police why he had said publicly the girls had went hiking behind the Pianista he said Eileen had told him; she said this was not true and she hadn't known it anyway. Now is such a deliberate untruth about how he seemed to know so much about where the two missing girls had gone several weeks before the backpack was found and the camera revealed it was the Serpent trail, really not suspicious? He was listed as a suspect in the police file you know. There were people who said Van Der Sloot was innocent of the killing of Natalee Holloway, (and some still do), but that case showed circumstantial evidence can be the best evidence of all.
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  72. Also ants. Except that Lisanme's leg bones had undecomposed flesh on them, which indicated a cool grave in the cloud forest.
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  73. I don't think it is at all random, It is an illustrated story with a logical narrative. The jungle at night, a cliff edge, and Kris Kremers looking like she is hurt. Lissanne Froom was supposed to be taking these photos after seven days lost, with a rock steady hand, instead of giving her friend first aid.
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  74. Panamanian girls would not have been presumed 'lost', there would have been something done, whether legally or some other way. The perpetrators chose wisely.
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  75.  @SL-ze6su  They don't call it the Lost Waterfall for nothing, Kris and Lisanne would not have tried to find it without a ...GUIDE.
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  76. So they were in the jungle for six nights and on the seventh decided to start using the camera flash?
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  77.  @OliveJuice  I will never understand why so many people think it is being over emotional to think foul play is plausible, but their most convoluted conjectures in support of misadventure stem from their super coolness..
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  78.  @OliveJuice  Not denying you are super cool then?
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  79. Well, no. Girls who were strangers to such conditions getting disorientated and making foolish decisions is very plausible, and so is stumbling around exhausted and in low light conditions falling off a cliff into a ravine with a river at the bottom of it. Kris and Lisanne were less worldly-wise than most twenty year old women, which is really saying something. I agree one of the girls being alive and not being found for day after day while locals were wandering along the paths able to hear screams and search teams were combing the area that is only tens of kilometers across is far from credible. Itmeans the girls were not simply lost. There was in Panamanian terms a huge reward for them. However, the culprits overthought it with the fake calls leaving the backpack and remains so likely are not too bright. The mechanically pulverized condition of the defleshed, although not abraded as they would be by a river bed, bones seems conclusive, especially when taken with the fact that bone does not float. The perpetrators are local yokels, and I am sure I know where they are from. As for blaming the girls, it is not entirely unfair because the girls had been told by the woman of the family they were living with that on reaching the summit they must come back the way they came. Panamanians living around the begining of the trail tried to dissuade the girls from going by themselves on even the touristy part to the summit that borders on properties. I think the way the striking Kremers was dressed worried them. The problem was the girls did not get explicitly told the reason for concerns was they might be assaulted by criminal men. It was an exceptionally good day and dry underfoot, one was artistic and wanted photographs of wilder places and the other was quite athletic, so the combination of their personalities and the favourable conditions led to them not only venturing over the summit on to the rougher path, but going much further down it than anyone would have predicted, or the average couple of European girls might have though wise. Relevant to the idea of them twisting their ankle is they both had excellent boots on. They went for two hours to the little stream where the last photos' were taken. Given that they had then been walking for four hours from the trailhead and would have the same time to get back there by 7 pm at the earliest, the most obvious reason for no more photos is because they turned to go back and were retracing their steps over where they already had taken photos at. An hour later both their phones called the emergency number within ten minutes and those were the last calls made on their phones that were was actually by them I suspect. The most likely scenario for them being alarmed enough to call as an emergency yet having over ten minutes to do so is they passed someone on the trail who then altered direction and began stalking them. There is a photo of Kremer a week afterwards ( 8 April) Yet they cannot possibly have been alive then because they could shout for help and be heard, unless they were being held prisoner. One of the girls' phone was being used on the 11th. I have never thought there was the slightest mystery about it; the perpetrators being most likely men from Alto Romero where the backpack was left very close to the village indeed, and Kremers shorts later appeared only a few kilometer away. The body parts were almost entirely beween the two locations. and close to Alto Romero No one not from the area could make repeated trips there. Also it shows a lack of sophistication about the fuss and forensic examination that that guide would likely not be stupid enough for. I don't think he had anything to do with it. When Dutch TV wentto Alto Romero it was apparent the residents were trying to confuse the issue so I'll bet the people there have a good idea who did it. The Panamanians' motives in covering it (and several similar incidents) up is all too clear. Why people are still choosing to go there of all places for a carefree holiday is an enigma to me though.
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  80. "Possible" simply means it would not have violated the laws of physics. For what actually happened the most likely scenario ought to be concentrated on. Arnold Donaldson is very good on this first principle being neglected by 'losters'. Jaime Costa, who knows the area and walked the trail has pointed out that the trail has too many people on it for an abduction to be likely. I now think Lissane and Kris being duped into leaving the trail on the pretext of being led to a photogenic waterfall is more plausible. No one was given an interrogation appropriate to it being identified as a double murder case, for the simple reason that this the Panamanian authorities could call it what ever they wanted, and they did not want it to be a murder. Many in Boquete were somewhat resentful about a level of resources being given to looking for disappeared women tourist froms the Netherlandsm which was far beyond what would have been used for a couple of equivalent age women from Boquete. But on the other hand extra judicial retribution would be more likely for Panamanian women; our person of interest wouldn't dare continue hanging around in the town if two Panamanian families there suspected him of being responsible for killing their daughters. I don't think 'suspect' is a strong enough term for him actually; the finds of possessions and remains seem highly suggestive of him, especially that two days after Froon's boot was found it was F who found Kremers's boot. No one talks about Kremers's boot though (apart to note that she died without shorts, boots or a bra on),
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  81.  @FB-cx4sp The Dr is good on psychology, I was expecting that kind of analysis. One would think as a man Grande must have an understanding of the relevance of these being peak physical condition female humans, not old and unhealthy, and therefor giving men certain ideas. Kris was particularly striking, with unusual coloring and dressed in a way that drew attention to her figure, like would be appropriate for getting attention at a holiday resort let alone an isolated forest. She was said to be artistic and out going. That said, you can disappear going to the beach in Panama as American Catherine Johannet did in 2019. Possessions, pulverized bone and rolled up pieces of skin were scattered in various direction in the area around the village of Alto Romero. The backpack was found beside a rice field quite close to that village just as the searching was reaching a crescendo and moving towards the village. If I was forced to say who I think it was likely someone from Alto Romero or a farm around there that did it. On the other hand, someone was quite cunning with the fake emergency calls (though all were made during at times suggesting a midday break from work), but the 14 hours of both phones being switched off immediately after the first and probably genuine emergency calls suggest to me that the cover up calls-entailing long term planning- maybe were after both were dead, devised by someone different to whoever committed such an impulsive crime,--possibly a father or older brother of the perp(s). My bet would be they were targets of opportunity having passed a local(s)who realised they were totally isolated and abducted them off the trail. Possibly they were not alive for more than hours, although they could have been most easily moved (at night to avoid witnesses) to a nearby farm where the chemicals and machinery to dispose of the corpses that was clearly used would be present. I think that farm may be very close indeed to the little stream where their last photo was taken
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  82. ​ @Suzanne1999 I take a different view, any such informant could just be the culprit trying to blame someone else by planting evidence. He already tried to frame the cable bridge by suggesting it as the location for the night photos. Circumstantial evidence is the best evidence. When you have one man working alone to do the whole thing himself, which is what I think happened, it is the only evidence (apart from a confession). This guy came up with so many red herrings finds and prescient suggestions that it was virtually a signed confession.
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  83. Well their bones and ended up outside the remote lodge they they did not want to vist. And one who offered them a trip to the lodge the day before they went missing, the finder of their bones, the lodge owner, the guide who reported them missing, and the only person who suggested looking behind the Pianista trail for them are all one and the same. Kris died without her shorts, boots or bra on. Animals would not have eaten their underwear or tops but no trace of these was found.
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  84. I have never thought the camera deletion oddities to be an argument for foul play. But I always thought it was an obvious double homicide. There is no recorded instance of two women disappearing by accident like that. And the first time there is such an occurrence we are supposed to believe it just happened to be two extremely attractive and young ones who took off their bras and put them in their backpack, but whose underwear and skulls were never found?
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  85.  @borisgraell  Night is dark in most places. They made one call each 12 minute apart while the sun was disappearing behind the mountain when seen from the down slope on the stream in photo 508, then, without any any retries at connecting for an EMERGENCY both the phones were powered off and stayed off for 14 hours. No attempted calls after the morning of the 3rd, and no phone activity of any kind on the 7th, 8th (when the night photos were taken), 9th and 10th. The last phone activity was on the 11th. Malevolent human beings are more easily underestimated and tricky than trees and nightfall.
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  86.  @abdell75roussos What girls would expose their sensitive breast skin to chafing scratches and biting insects in a jungle? I can think of a reason why they would both take them off, they were told to. Kris also took her denim shorts off because they were found with no trace of decomposition breakdown products on them. So they were kidnaped, ordered to strip, and you can all too easily guess the rest. After that they could hardly be left to go to the authorities and make a complaint. That area is sparsely inhabited but people live there and they are not deaf so screaming would have got Kris and Lisanne found long before the 11th day. The reward was a very substantial one for an ordinary Panamanian. The night photo of the back of Kris's head among completely random ones of a tree were taken in the early hours during a thunderstorm. It reeks of the clandestine. Too many anomalies for your hypothesis I am afraid. You are arguing the case about as well as it could be, yet I think this is far from obvious accidental deaths in which the victims just happened to be hot young women
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  87.  @markmike7933  That is a powerful argument but as with most controversies of this type seemingly great points are inconclusive as very pertinent counter-arguments exist. What to me seem two of the best grounds for thinking this was most likely a double homicide by the father and son guide team Kris Kremmers and Lisanne Froon had contacted on the morning of their hike to try and hire, thus allowing those men to surmise where KK and LF would be going, are the following. Firstly, it is not jungle but a forest with meadows, some human habitations and people with good hearing moving throughout it on herding trails except after nightfall. Secondl there was someone turning the phone on and off until the eleventh day, which is a long time to be lost is such an area if you are yelling for help and there is (in rural Panamanian terms) a life changing amount of money offered as a reward for finding you.
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  88.  @jonesmorales-tu6kq  I know this case, and i know they were hot young women,.
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  89. Better still, don't go to South America and expect that you will not be a target. Apart from a foot in a shoe and the bleached pelvis, all the bones found were in fragments. Nothing on four legs can pulverize bones like that, and the remains being found together makes it certain it was a featherless biped that did it. Those who think otherwise could not find their own rear end. As for the guide, well I think it likely someone from the town set them up. They were too trusting of people.
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  90. Tourists don't use lye to dissolve animal carcasses, Panamanian farmers do.
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  91. Maybe dissolved in lye by now..
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  92. Kris and Lissane were wearing excellent boots, and they had plenty of time to get back before the 6.40pm sundown. At their last location known there is a photo taken at 2pm (they had started at 10.45am. It was a trail that is is impossible to go off of or not understand that you stop and go back the way you came so stop halfway through your time to nightfall. They were killed, and everyone who has a little common sense knows why, and who by.
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  93.  @craigcraigster5605  I wasn't aware that cell phones use much more power when they try to connect. However there really is nothing they could have fallen at that could have been reached by 4.39pm when the first emergency number calls were made 12 minutes apart. Only a single attempt each, 12 minutes apart, and then switching off for 14 hours seems highly suspicions for anyone let alone 20 and 21year old girls. That there were two best friends doing this seems really quite strange. This is not some troubled loner. Moreover the next day Lisanne's phone did connect while ringing the emergency number and the call was ended after two seconds. There was no second attempt immediately or ever again, and Lissannes phone was then LEFT ON ALL THAT NIGHT without being used. So that is three things with possible innocent explanations ...within the first 36 hours. I am sure the many other anomalies over the 11 days Kremers's phone was active (being turned on and off) such as it was not used for an emergency call after the 3rd day and turned off for the last time on the 11th day with 22% power remaining, have possible explanations not involving criminal activity. Possible does not mean likely though
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  94.  @keptins  But not by tourists any more.
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  95. Farming chemicals and knowledge of how to butcher animals explains it all. The cunning use of the mobile for fake emergency calls (entailed a plan to later leave it to be found) implies more sophistication than tribal people.
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  96. Please tell me about the similar accidental deaths of two women together in the woods. You can't, because it is not something that happens. They each unsuccessfully tried to make an emergency call at 5pm on the day they went missing and failing to connect that one time, then ... switched the phones off for 14 hours. Ten days later on April the 11th, one of them tried to connect for the last time and then switched off the mobile ( with power remaining) and CAREFULLY PUT IT IN THE BACKPACK along with the other mobile, and the folded bras that they had been wearing. There must have been water to last 11 days but you can't starve to death in under a month, so what killed the girl who made that call? The backpack then found its way into the winding Serpent river and over nine weeks floated many kilometers down and came to rest on the same sandbar where Froom's rib and Kremers's pelvis were later found, just outside Alto Romero a village full of Indians who'd make good scapegoats if the accidents theory was rejected by the authorities
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  97. Jaime Costa who knows from walking it says the trail is too busy for an abduction and any locals would know that. This is one guy who tricked them into going off of the safety of the path. They trusted, and they died for it. I don't think they would have trusted a beefy YOUNG guy they had not met before, like the guide who said he saw them that day and admits to being near the overlook.
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  98. Costa Rica is where the girls originally wanted to go. Panama is going to pay dearly for this affair in tourist business that chooses Costa Rica over the unsafe substitute.
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  99.  @chrisgwynne1586  Agreed, and who found that evidence having so much connection to the victims and the reason they were on that remote trail unprotected is very telling. That the bogus emergency calls started a few hours after the last hike photo suggests that there was pre planning.
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  100.  @davidhoward437  This case's nighttime photos and phones data are a found footage fictional movie produced and directed by a psychopath.
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  101. He is a heterosexual man who has made some obtuse advances, but he has a couple of businesses, and so a pretty intelligent fellow; not such a fool as to plant the possessions and the remains so close to his coffee planation, and then find some of them them himself. In addition to being rather old for such a crime, his cash businesses were doubtless hard hit by the aftermath of the incident. I think it is possible but not very credible that he has any involvement. The perp is more cunning than that. I do blame him guide F for failing to tell Kris and Lissane , as he obviously did not, that the trail was unsafe for unaccompanied young foreign women tourists, and they needed a guide--not as someone to show them where to go, but as a local guy with a machete to be a protector. But if he had said that it is possible they would have decided against going at all, and he was trying to get them to hire him. As for his son, this is not a gang thing, they are young macho and get young girls hanging around them; would consider it beneath their code to commit such a crime. Also were a gang member involved, his friends would realize and someone would hear talk and inform for the ward . It is conceivable the backpack body parts were planted close to the guide's coffee plantation in order to frame him and his son though I suspect the Indians were also scapegoat's as a plan B for the accidents scenario being disbelieved.
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  102. The remains of Froon found relatively close to the guide's farm and mainly found by him were all from a leg.
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  103. Well if the path they walked (during a drought) was dangerous they were idiots and took more than a week to die. Otherwise they died in a matter of hours, due to thinking Panama was not a country where their homicides would be compared to silly cows that drown, and their killer could escape justice despite brazenly trying and claim a reward for 'finding' their bones and belongings.
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  104. Identify it as what it was: a vile double murder. Don't disrespect Kris and Lisanne.
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  105. The presence of voracious insects cannot explain why they took their bras off, indeed it is a powerful reason to think they did not do so voluntarily. If it was an accidental death documented by the night photo of an injured Kris's head, which the guide was the first one to say was taken under the cable bridge, the body would be in the river for most of the ten weeks, and only ended up on land when the levels receded, so no insects for most of the time. It's surprisingly cold at elevation, and there was some flesh on the bones from Froon's corpse along with a hardly decomposed piece of skin from her shin. So what probably happened is her body was in a jungle grave at high elevation, and the killer returned to dig it up enough to take a leg. Kremers's corpse was probably very heavily doused in caustic soda (her boot was bleached) and the pelvis fragment dipped in lye again before being left (it was lacking any trace of the the super tough ligament that connects to the backbone) It must be borne in mind that this is not a horror film about army ants (or piranhas) but a real world event in which two young sexually attractive women who ventured one hour down a remote trail, and 20 minutes after they left cellphone reception stopped taking photos, then got transformed into a few bones..Dr Grande has done video on men who who killed women and tried to make it look like an accident. I dare say there are ones who got away with it. While it must be accepted that things might have happened as you suggest in the case of the pelvis fragment, it would be a long shot. For there to have been no foul play a long series of long shots would have had to converge. That is what is called "overfitting" . Much more plausible than a prolix series of remarkable things just happening, is that Kris And Lisanne were victims of a double homicide. Everyone talks about the chemical state of Kris's pelvis, which was found while the guide was present, but much more telling are the parallels and extreme propinquity of the remains. To be specific, the backpack was found by an employee of the guide very close to one of his properties. Then the guide found the first remains, Froon's foot, in her boot nearby. Two days later he found Kremers's boot. The guide was there at the finding of Kremers's pelvis, which was not all that far from the backpack and Froon's foot/boot (despite the presumably different buoyancy characteristics of these items). Neither Kris or Lisanne's underwear or tops were found. but both of their shorts were. One boot each, both bras, and a few bone fragments from each. It stinks of a murderer having selected items easy to carry from where Lisanne and Kris were covertly interred, and planted those remains and belongings to show both girls slipped into a river ravine. That $30,000 reward was an additional motivation. Criminals tend to operate out in a rough V shape pattern begining from their home. The finds are consistent with that method of operation.
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  106. On the day they went missing, three men were seen running on the trail at the same time as frightened female screams and a crashing noise, according to what a Belgian was told by a local Indian on the 2nd, before the alarm had been raised.
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  107. They died of thirst and a raging torrent river? Can't have it both ways. As for the backpack, that was a very stupid move or panic. There was a $30,000 reward by that time, which was 10 weeks later. That amount of money would transform a backwoods Panamanian and his entire family's life. Possessions, pulverized but not abraded bone and rolled up pieces of skin were scattered off in various directions in the area away from the (unmarked on maps) village of Alto Romero. The backpack was found beside a rice field really quite close to that village just as the searching was moving towards the village. Someone from Alto Romero or a farm around there got away with double homicide.
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  108.  @_nick_d  The last day photo is at a little stream , which has been identified as a couple of hours past the summit and down the rough trail, Kremers looks like someone happily posing for photos, which she was in fact doing. It was about 3pm. They had been walking for 4 hours by then. My bet is they turned around there, which had they got back (they didn't of course), would have been in total an 8 hour walk. I suspect you are right about one bottle being inadequate, but we don't know what water they actually took, just what was in the backpack when it tuned up . What we do know is both of them were wearing bras under their tops, yet when the backpack suddenly appeared several weeks later just outside the hamlet of Alto Romero, both those bras they went on the walk wearing were inside the backpack and neatly folded. I'm not a woman but surely those garments would be something a woman would take off when she was feeling secure , not lost in a strange forest. The backpack, fragmentary pulverised remains and Kremers shorts were mainly within a few kilometers of Alto Romero. We are talking about the kind of predatory animal that lives in a house.
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  109. Yes, your money will go a long way so hire the best. The guide who Lisanne and Kris arranged for the 2nd then went on the 1st without (or so he said) is not a "bonded" guide. Similarly the school that told them to come on a certain date to start their voluntary work, and when they arrived on the date stipulated to them in an email, told them they were a week early (probably deliberate overbooking IMO) were inexpensive but had a poor reputation. The reason they had a day to pass and went on such a long hike is because of sketchy people they were dealing with.
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  110. Not just the state if the remains it was who was incredibly successful in finding the remains.
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  111.  @IconTitan  He knows the trail they disappeared on better than anyone, and has a certain reputation . Eff was informed that they were unexpectedly at a loose end and going a hike that day so could he guide them . He said he was busy, but he could easily have guessed where they'd be going as he had apparently offered them a stay at his coffee ranch down the Serpent trail days earlier. When you ad the fact that he was absent from the earliest days of the search, and was the first to suggest (correctly) they had gone down the Serpent trail , and after an increased reward was offered and the search got close to his ranch was incredibly successful at fining the Kris and lissane's boot (one from each) and pieces of bone in thick undergrowth (although he could not find two big healthy girls in that area when they were alive and shouting for help for over a week) there is now reasonable doubt. I don't think he followed them he is more cunning than that. I believe he was waiting on the trail and with the help of his some dragged them off into the forest near the last daytime photo at that little stream crossing which is 20 minutes walk past cellphone reception.
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  112. The dangers of the jungle do not preferentially target hot young women.
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  113. I disagree, they would have been better not going so far into the other side of the summit trail; if anything they took too much water. The backpack had both their sunglasses and both their bras, and one water bottle. Plus the mobile with the fake emergency calls (one of which was terminated as soon as it got though). The mobile was the whole point of leaving the backpack to be found. Quite possibly there was another bottle.
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  114. They made an emergency call and failing to connect that one time, switched the phones off for 14 hours. So cell phone battery life was more important than their own life.
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  115. You cannot cover much ground in the jungle, especially with bare arms and legs and no machete. Look at the videos of the search, the trail is through rough wooded terrain, in some parts; yes, but interspersed and surrounded with cow pasture and other agriculture. Lye and related substances have a great many purposes for farmers.
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  116. "They were saving all the battery life they could". As opposed to saving their own lives? "But by the time the friend was required to unlock it, her hands were probably shaking and her vision might be fading". Whoever took the 8th April night photographs that showed blood flowing from Kremers's temple had very steady hands. Too steady for it to be a weak and upset Froom.
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  117. Which is why a bit of one's pelvis and the others rib were found on the same sandbar.
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  118.  @gardtexas603  They met their killer the day before, in a language school which recommended him as a guide.
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  119. The night photos were eight days after the day of the hike and were rapid (minutes and seconds between photos) and random untill the back of Kris's head was shown whereupon the intervals suddenly became much longer and even hours, as if showing Kris's hair was the whole point. The sheer number of outré occurrences amounts to a compelling circumstantial case for a double homicide. Between the last day of the hike photo we have (photo 508 taken at 1:54 p.m very definitely on the trail). and the first supposed emergency call attempt (made at 4:39 p.m.) was two and a half hours. Barely possible they were walking along the trail for hours after they suddenly stopped taking photos but before they attempted to contact anyone at all, and when they did it was the emergency services? Starting at 4.39pm they made one attempted call from each one.s phone, then a totally inexplicable 14 hour gap their first night in the jungle. The location of 508 is about 20 mins walk outside phone reception in addition to being isolated, so it would be the perfect place for malevolent guides with knowledge of both the area and Kris and Lisanne's likely route to lie in wait and abduct them without witnesses.. They were dragged of the trail just after 2pm and the rest was the killer and his son fabricating a lost 'story that just does not stand up. Everyone knows who it was, but he Panamanian government wanted it to be an accident, so an accident is what their minions deemed it to have been.
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  120.  @BengalCatChilli  But a long way from the guide F's ranch, very near where 6% of their bones were found together along with a backpack (items of dissimilar buoyancy one might think unlike to end up on the same stretch of bank at the same time ten weeks later). And this after the region had been searched by the rescue teams! It must seem like such a small world when you are turning a blind eye to the activities of a psychopath.
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  121. The Panamanians did not want to know, and said the girls had fell in a river and been swept out to sea. I agree that the perpetrator would have been much better off just leaving it at that and thus having a disappearance of the girls without any trace. But it must be remembered that whoever did it is not right in the head to do it in the first place., so he tried to guild the lily. The calls and cameras are definitely 'found footage' fakery. The killer is someone that thought (overthought actually) he could not afford to have it thought a double homicide, that means there is some connection. Such a possible person of interest is salient if one looks at who had a pr meeting with Kremers and Froon about being paid to guide them along the trail, and he also was very quick to raise the alarm. When you factor in that his very same person is the one who ten weeks later was almost incredibly successful at finding the remains of Froon and Kremers in heavy vegetation, yet relatively close to his ranch withal ..., It is pretty certain he killed them. He ought to be seven years into a life sentence, but we live in a world where there is quite a gap between what is and what ought to be.
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  122.  @kevlarcardhouse252  You are misunderstanding the extent to which police are free to open a politically embarrassing new criminal investigation in Panama, and what the purpose of the backpack was when it was planted. F's intent with the backpack was to access the reward that had just increased to a life changing amount . The backpack was found by F's employee, almost on the doorstep of one of 'F's tourist lodges in Alto Romero. F then found the very first remains, behind a nearby tree. More finds by F and search parties led by F followed. '"He's the last guy to see them alive—and then he's the one who finds their bones,” says fellow guide Tornblom. “Something about that just feels wrong to me."' Let me give you a counterfactual. Coming under all this suspicion from people who know the area, why would F not have worried the next thing would be the rest of the bodies and the heads of Froon and Kremenr being found in a shallow grave at the bottom of his garden. An innocent man would have to suspect someone was deliberately implicating him by planting evidence and the trap was closing on him. Anyone in the position an innocent F would have been in by mid June could and surely would have protested his innocence and publicly said he was being framed. But he did not do that. Why? Forget about all the convoluted and competing inferences about favoured factoids. F's failure to be alarmed at the finds of the remains inexorably making him look guilty, and to react by protesting he was being railroaded, is that one clear index we need.
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  123.  @kevlarcardhouse252  He was in the clear before the finds of backpack and remains, and after all the finds, which were made by his employees or him himself, he was still in the clear. On Monday, the day before they disappeared, F met and offered them a trip to his remote finca, which involved an overnight stay. Lisanne and Kris declined that, but agreed to hire him for the Pianista trail on Wednesday, but went themselves on Tuesday and went missing around the time they'd have been turning to come back (this was a three hour there and back hike on a well marked trail with no navigation required). Seventy two days later their bones end up around the unmarked village of Alto Romero. The backpack is found in the same area, virtually on the doorstep of F's ranch, the same one the girls had had declined a trip to. Small world!
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  124.  @nigelhaywood9753  Er, they were killed not just stolen from. How did he know where to find their remains that were found a little way from the backpack? A double homicide is not something that you trust anyone with evidence against you with, even a backpack. The night photos show that Kris was held prisoner for a week, that was likyl on a storage shack on F's ranch near Alto Romero (before being killed and the bones and possessions planted nearby for him to 'find ). He was listed as a suspect in police files bacause he had lied (said the language schoool women told his , whch they denied) about how he knew long before anyone else Kris and Lisanne had gone behind the Pianista; that was a deliberate decision on his part and removes any doubt about him being the perpetrator.
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  125. ​ @MrMooremelody Well, they assumed they would not be murdered. So you will be in good company.
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  126.  @MrMooremelody  It was a sex crime and Kremers was, for want of a better word, sexier. Moreover, her long natural strawberry blonde hair and very pale skin gave her a rarity value in Panama. Also her clothing showed her assets off more:, she wore a bight patterned tight top and daisy dukes.. Froom was hardly plain, but she was six foot tall , and relatively speaking a beanpole. In the very similary case of Cassandre Bouvier and Houria Moummi in Argentina where two women from abroad were murdered while walking on a nature trial, only Bouvier was violated. By several different men.
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  127.  @Android3008 First principles: people surviving in the wild for 11 days no more that seven miles from a town without ever being found is less common that women being kidnapped and held for sexual purposes. Two women alone together dying in an accident is an order of magnitude less common that two women alone being murdered. To function in the world you ought not demand proof , that would be paralyzing. Just quietly assume they were murdered and move on. Lisanne's leg bones were determined though examination by pathologists to have exhibited shin splints. which means she was forced to cover a lot of ground: open ground. Who found the remains makes it obvious who killed them.
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  128.  @jamaaldavis6243  No one who had has actually physically been on that trail thinks Kris and Lisane could have got lost. Two women out by themselves both dying accidently is rarer that double murders of women by themselves. What we know from the Panamanian pathology report on the fragments of Lisanne's lower leg bones is that she was suffering from shin splints when she died: she hardly would have went on the hike with that condition, and so she covered a great distance over rough ground in a short period of time after going missing ( she also had a foot bone fracture associated with twisted ankle). None of that is speculation.
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  129.  @KD--sj8eo  Please read things thoroughly before commenting, and looking on Wikipedia might be an idea too. The Central Park Five were supposed to have run into the Jogger at random during their mugging rampage though the park. The Five were freed when Matias Reyes confessed he was acting alone when he saw the Jogger in a busy part of the park near the entrance; followed her to an isolated part of the park clubber her with a branch and dragged her off the path and into the trees. My point was the Central park Jogger was UNUSUALLY attractive so the odds were against perps 'hitting the jackpot' at random like that. Catherine Johannet the American woman who was murdered in 40 miles from Broquete in Panama in 2014, was also clubbed while walking a forest trail and them dragged off it. Kris Kremers was unusually attractive.While it IS possible she and Froom were not followed from the more inhabited Boquete side of the trail into the isolated over the peak/ continental divide section of the trail, and just ran onto some bad actor{s} when they went down the other side, I think the balance of probability is they were followed. Kremers was too striking for her being a random victim to be more probable than not. You cannot get off the narrow trail accidently or in order to avoid an attacker on the bit Kremers and Froom were on in the last photos, but a little way further on from the last photo is cow pasture where two victims would be much harder to control, so any stalker who knew the trail would have had to strike quite quickly. An important point is that Froon and Kremers were indisputably dressed for walking along a trail rather than leaving it and moving through undergrowth with bare arms and legs. It would have immediately been very uncomfortable for them and obvious they had to backtrack. So it they left the trail, yes, but it was surely against their will because they were abducted.
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  130.  @KD--sj8eo  I know the CP% were released because Matias Reyes confessed he was a lone attacker who spotted in a Jogger in a busy part of the park and followed her. DNA confirmed it. The Jogger was too damn good looking for a random victim. My point is , so was Kremers.
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  131. You're posting that everywhere now you sad man. Doesn't make sense as they were dead within a couple of days maybe an hour.
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  132. Yes.
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  133. The dog hung out with the many tourists who walked the Pianista which is five miles long and you turn at the end and walk back down it Therefore the dog would would not have went past the end of Pianista and down the other trail which would be strange to it. The dog returning was only odd because no one thought the girls were going to keep going straight on after the Pianista trail ended and descend an hour down a trail that only Indian inhabitants and serious hikers take. It would not be credible that a natural accident could happen to them on the Pianista, and it is much too inhabited for a serious crime of violence. The Pianista is what the girls told people they were going on. So the lack of action when the dog came back by itself was understandable. The information they got about the trail beyond the Pianista was partly from the internet that morning before they set out, but we know that they day before they disappeared F talked to them about it when he unsuccessfully tried to get them them to take a guided tour with overnight stay to his coffee plantation outside Alto Romero. The rough trail was the way that F would have taken them to his plantation, although it was 14 hours hike further along than they got according to the last photo, and the time they's have had had to return to Boquite before nightfall. Ten weeks later their backpack and then and 6% of their skeletons (which were apparently pulverised and treated with lime, turned up in around Alto Romero, found by people associated with F and him himself. It is a terrible injustice that F and his employees were not given the $30,000 reward
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  134. Yes, all he had was a no show client (he says, there is no independent account of their interactions and he now denies he ever met them). He went into their room, but waited hours after that to inform the police. If you know the route to where the finds of the backpack and remains are it is 12 hours at least (some say much more) hiking from where Lissane and Kris's their last known location, but only an hours walk from his ranch. None of that is particular incriminating. However, that ten weeks later he was the one making the key finds of their remains in non obvious places is considered extremely suspicious by absolutely everyone. Especially as this was soon after a huge reward was offered, which it looked like he was trying to access. Had it been identified as a double homicide at the time after he found those remains he and his son would have been bounced around the police station until they confessed. It would have been less likely they would have ever left the remains to be found if there was a criminal investigation though. Now every one knows who did it but nothing can be done.
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  135. Did you die?
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  136.  @NadaYoTengo  Boquete had not an international reputation as place where foreigners could disappear without all that much fuss being made , but maybe it ought to have had given that Alex Humphery went missing there in 2009. And maybe those 'rescuers' had thought they could get away with disappearing the German lady (they could hardly have let her go) because of the verdict over Kris and Lissane.
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  137. No. There cannot ever have been any incriminating photo on the camera, because if there was, that would mean there was a killer who had control of the phones and camera for ten weeks before he left them for the authorities to find (in the backpack). By that time there was a lot of resources being dedicated to the case from Holland, which is a technically advanced country. In that case you better believe that the killer looked very carefully at the photos on the camera to make sure there was nothing on it other than typical snaps of a hike. Deleting a photo using a computer and gambling that even world class experts would be unable to restore it would be a tremendous risk, and there was nothing to be gained. The camera was not necessary for reinforcing the 'lost' narrative or for claiming the reward; the perpetrator(s) would simply have left it out of the backpack if there was anything on it.
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  138. They were young and strong and best friends together they could have crawled home in 11 days.
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  139. The guide who said Kris and Lisanne had booked him for the Wednesday for the same trail they disappeared on while walking on Tuesday, and then found their remains days hike away over four river crossings. and incredibly close to his own plantation?
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  140. Already back in Holland. Anyway, someone they've flirted with is hardly going to commit such a crime. It was someone who couldn't get them any other way.
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  141. One very bad man was all would take, and I think it took. I don't think Panama wanted to know, which has not worked out too well for the reputation of their country as interest continues to grow on the internet.
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  142.  @hansunbekannt8208  It's not in my power to ensure nothing similar happens to you, but it won't because you are suspicious of others. Kris and Lissane were gentle souls. Only the good die young.
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  143.  @hansunbekannt8208  Not a puzzle, no doubt in my mind who did it
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  144. But they both took off their bras at an early stage. Kris died without her pants on.
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  145. I think Kremers's beauty was her downfall.
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  146. Disagree, everyone knows who did it. So to all intents and purposes it's solved. The perpetrator was protected by his country; so be it, the whole of Panama can get that bad publicity forever after if that's the way they want it. It is Costa Rica's gain.
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  147.  @Suzanne1999  Disagree there is a need for an informant. I think it is as certain as can be who did it. An informant can lie but the amount of circumstantial evidence we have already is the best proof And by the way, neither the Dutch or Panamanians ever said the girls got lost. In fact that was ruled out. The accident had them falling over a cliff where the night photos were taken, and the first person to identify that location is ... you can guess.
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  148.  @Suzanne1999  I am not sure about this guy being at all easy to catch in any country. What the perpetrator did making use of knowledge gained in his line of work and cellphones and cameras, was so planned, thought out in advance, complex and unusual, it took almost a year to realise it was him all along. By then the evidence was surely long destroyed. Detectives in less civically advanced countries have their ways of getting confessions, and I am not talking about subtle tactics, so if Panama had wanted him, they'd maybe have had a better shot than the police in the US.
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  149.  @phd1313 But we know that on day eleven someone is still strong enough to put the phones and camera (without any message for their families on either) in the backpack and securely fasten it. Of course that is easy to come up with an innocent reason for, just as can be done for many other strange facts known, yet while each odd thing can be easily explained when considered individually. Yet, if taken in the round the totality of anomalies is persuasive (by my way of thinking) that in all probability we are dealing with male criminal activity towards undefended young women with a contemporaneously fabricated cover narrative on the phones and camera. That the night photos where Kris's hair is seen were taken in the early hours of the morning during a thunderstorm a week after they vanished reeks of the clandestine. It is highly unlikely they left the trail willingly to enter scratchy forest as they had bare arms and legs. Judging by how clean their bra were they both took their bras off at an early stage. Lack of decomposition products on the denim shows Kris died without her shorts on. Them getting naked in the jungle pretty far fetched. But what makes this an obvious double homicide is on the day of the hike both their phones got switched off one hour after the sole emergency call attempt (one from each of their phones twelve minutes apart). To accept an accident what happened after the failed emergency call each is neither made any retry, and instead decided to be early to bed for their first night lost in a strange jungle (maybe in order to not be bothered by people calling them during what they hoped would be a good night's sleep, they switched both their phones off at the same time and left them off for a whole 13 hours. On the 2nd (day after they went missing ) an attempted emergency number call from Froon's phone is said to have made a short-time connection, following which the call was terminated. It is an undisputed fact that Froon's phone was then left on without making a call or other activity all that night running the battery down completely by 5am and there were no more call attempts from it or Kremers's phone after that time (5am the 3rd). Everyone knows who did it.
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  150. Not much doubt about that, or who did it.
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  151.  @gbessone  Foxtrot
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  152.  @jonesmorales-tu6kq  Yes the jungle does not preferentially target sexy young women.
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  153. He knows his way around town, not the remote trails.
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  154.  @mylifeasmalu  Are you serious? The rucksack had not been in the water.
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  155.  @SwissMarksman  "I don't understand why people still debate this". Say things like that and you throw down the gauntlet. As challenger you don't get the choice of weapons..
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  156. Although it certainly is within the bounds of possibility, your proposed explanation cannot be accepted as the least unlikely way the night photos came to have been taken. The photo of the back of Kris's head was in perfect focus and framed so only her hair was visible. While this might have happened by accident, much more probable is it was the result of careful staging. If the photo of Kris was staged then the apparent fearful or hopeful signaling use of the flash in the same time period of that night is not genuine.
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  157.  @Sandoz-tq7qj  F has demolished it,
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  158. Dr Grande isn't talking about those photos( he nighttime photos that were taken in the early hours of 8th April). , Dr Grande is talking about the last photos taken on a week earlier, the day Kris and Lisanne went missing, which was 1st April. He has got completely confused about the timing of the attempted emergency calls on the day they disappeared and thinks the girls tried to call the emergency number, then went back to taking touristy photos that day. Such is not the case and he has misunderstood the sources. The last photo taken by the girls on the day they disappeared was at 215 pm.. It was two and a half hours after they took this, their last photo on the day they went missing, that a single attempted emergency call came from each of their phones. If you don't believe me you can hear him state his incorrect version in the above video at 10:52.
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  159.  @me73941  The parents sued the Panamanian government. The Panama authorities' cover up has cost their country dearly. Who would let their daughter go there now?
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  160. The bag was also in a region not all that far from where F has a strawberry growing plot. A hike to see it was one of the tours F offered Kris and Lisanne. The other was to F's coffee plantation in Alto Romero. Seventy three days later six percent of their bones and a ball of Lisanne's skin ended up in Alto Romero.
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  161. Lissane was probably killed very quickly and put in a jungle grave where water kept the corpse cool. The perpetrators always intended to leave the phones; I think the perpetrators' intention may have altered after the reward was upped to $30,000, and they thought they needed more than the backpack for the reward A pay out for just the backpack was benied and then the boot with the foot was found. I think they's dug up the corpse of Lissane up and recovered a leg for reducing to fragments. 'finding', and claiming the reward. Kris's corpse was likely buried with lime or lye. All the bone fragments recovered were from Lissane leg bones, and the ball of skin was also from a lower leg. Hence the boot.
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  162. Those witnesses are people who earn their living from tourists visiting the trail, they did not want it thought dangerous. So they said the girls returned from hiking on it, which they did not.
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  163.  @chrisgwynne1586  No witness said they were in Boquette after the hike Two men, both of whom happen to have business at the trail head depending on tourists using the trailhead, said they came back down the trail and were hitchhiking. The local police did not take that seriously, and everything else about the case suggest they died on the far side of the mountain/ continental divide. The hot springs bathing is a popular local spot, and that photo was almost certainly taken on a previous day. The reward offered would be a life changing amount for a Panamanian, someone could move to the other side of the country, buy land, a build a house and start a business with such a sum; it would have been claimed by people who saw them at the springs that day if KK and LS had been there that day. The trail ceasing to be patronized by tourists would have ruined those people who claimed to have seen Kris and Lisanne return from hiking the trail that day. Ensuring you could continue to suport your family is a massive motive to mislead in my book.
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  164. Biederbeck: What kind of a fiend are you? Phibes: The kind that wins, my friend (Dr. Phibes Rises Again 1972)
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  165. Her beauty was her nemesis. But her forever young clickbait looks are also Panama's nemesis.
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  166.  @stevemorse108  I consider the involvement of F to be virtually certain. One thing we definitely know (because he gave two mutually incompatible accounts): guide F has uttered untruths about whether he had a meeting with Kris and Lissane the day before they disappeared. I think he did, just as he originally said; he told of trying to sell the girls guided tours at the language school where he is the default guide . According F's original account, this happened on Monday the 31st of April and in his detailed account Lisanne read and Kris lay in a hammock as he was giving them his sales pitch. His card was in their room and what he said about them is consistent with what we know of their personalities. It is important to remember that the trip they got the school intern Eileen to book sometime on Tuesday by phone/ internet for Wednesday was to Alto Quiel, and on a complete different trail in another direction to any part of the Pianista and the continuation of a rough trail behind it. A certain site (not Scarlett's) will tell you that Eileen was an employee of F, but this is incorrect. Eileen was a pretty young German woman who was moved around the various schools, and was new to Boquete. She booked F to be a guide on Wednesday for herself Eileen as well as Kris and Lisanne. Eileen did not see Kris and lisanne on Tuesday at all, so the book must have been decided on the day before. You really cannot beat Scarlet's site, the others are all all plagerising her and just making things up; managing to get very important details completely wrong withal. In my opinion F went away from his Monday meeting with the girls thinking lascivious things, but is not stupid enough to have ever believed he could be the guide taking them on a hike/ tour and then have them 'disappear' on that tour; he would've immediately been arrested and be as good as convicted. What I think happened is he saw them and thought he would like to victimize them (or maybe just Kris) , but it was just fantasy for the aforementioned reason. How did it go down then? The next day he may have simply bumped into them on the trail when he happened to be walking it, and thought he had the perfect set up to do what he wanted, and not only get away with it, but have no criminal investigation by faking them dying accidently because they were lost. They knew him as a trustworthy guide, and if just running into him, he would be able to trick them into leaving the trail by offering to show them something like a waterfall. If he had neutralized Lissane out of the blue, he'd have been able to control Kris quite easily. Of course he may have somehow known or suspected or been tipped off they were on the trail some way and/or had help, but I think him acting alone with what he'd regard as luck in the way I have just adumbrated is an underdiscussed scenario.
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  167. ​ @stevemorse108  While Amanda was portrayed as a beautiful evil genius, Kris and Lisanne were made out to be dumb blondes completely lacking in cognitive ability, sense of direction and even the baby ability to scream endlessly for help. Not to say that Amanda like Kris/ Lisanne) did not make some mistakes. But their biggest mistake was thinking that the country they went to was as safe as where they had came from.
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  168.  @enysuntra1347  Drying out weakens bones, not being in a river.
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  169. Ha ha ha , you have just proved thatLlisanne's corpse was in a cool high altitude jungle grave for ten weeks, because there was flesh on her bones and n remarkably undecomposed piece of skin from her shin. Everything found from Lissanne's body was from a leg. Also, "bodies" plural.There is no previous example of two women dying accidently in the wilderness like that. The Babes in the Wood Epping Forrest deaths were decades later discovered to be a double homicide. The death of Julie Ward on an African game reserve was also found to actually have been a homicide that was made to look like an accident (by guides).. The first two women such a double accident deaths happened to, just happened to be young and beautiful? Please!
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  170.  @Carolina-rd3gh  The review may not be legit. It is not clear how he knew they were going to be on the trail that afternoon. and he could not have known they would be going down the rough trail I don't think because that was a result of them getting to the peak much sooner than anticipated. I think for all the things we don't know, and will never know, him reporting them missing so precipitously was suspicious. That he ten weeks later was the main finder of the remains and close to his property is conclusive. No one thinks those finds he made seem likely without guilty knowledge, not even the other guides, who know more about the terrain than anyone . And why would he not worry he was being framed and stop finding the body parts so close to his own farm?
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  171. Maybe, maybe not. But the clothing being found had telling parallels, Both bras, both shorts, one boot from each (both found by F 48hours apart), neither's top and neither's panties. I'ts like someone was picking stuff to plant.
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  172. That is why none was sent.
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  173.  @boreopithecus  The man operating Kris and Lissanne's phones did not want to leave any clues. Unsporting of him, eh?
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  174. Almost the last person to talk to them was the one who they hired as a guide for the trail on Wednesday (he says) but declined a trip to his ranch so distant it required an overnight stay; they then failed to cancel the Wednesday trip and just went by themselves on Tuesday (he says, it would have entailed not turning up for the Wednesday trip on the same trail anyway because they'd have done it themselves the previous day). He raised the alarm on Wednesday, and ten weeks later found their remains near his ranch. So they, or rather their remains, ended up there after all.
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  175. For the Panamanian government, yes.
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  176. It is horrifying, but there is not a mystery.
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  177.  @Alvin-eq5rc  What really happened will remain a mystery, but that is no "guide" to the identity of the murder being unknown to anyone who takes an interest.
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  178.  @BengalCatChilli  Same reason they hung up on them?
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  179.  @NadaYoTengo  Okay, you have local knowledge so I accept that our person of interest does not spend his time there on an average day. However, he is very wised up about the internet and phones so I think when he does leave Boquete to attend to matters on his farm near Alto Romero, he would be making calls to Boquete to keep in touch with any new bookings and when he may have to be back for. He surely knows from doing this while walking between Boquete and the farm both on his own account, and while with tourist customers paying for trips to his coffee plantation farm, where the phone reception ends (so would other guides too probably). However it would not just be a case of knowing where the women would not be able to call the emergency number (hitting the unlock key five times would be all that would have been needed) and actually get through, there is another reason. Even if if they were waylaid too suddenly for an emergency call to be made, the phones being switched on within phone reception range might enable the exact location every 15 minutes to later be determined by examining the cellphone mast data. That info would not require finding the girls phones, because the call data is stored in the mast transmitting stations and could have been available as soon as they were officially missing. The perps had to do this thing well outside phone reception range, otherwise they would have been leaving the investigation a record of exactly when and where the victimization started. Inside phone reception range, not turning the girls' phones off once under the perps' control would be tantamount to giving a the authorities a moment by moment record of their movements while inside reception range. Kris and Lisanne left phone range at 1.39pm and one would expect that the perps made sure they had a broad extra margin to be sure. There was a guide (not F) who said he saw them on the summit/ overlook, but has since changed his mind and said he know realises he was wrong and it was not them. He admits he was there on the day though. Considering Kremers's unusual red blonde hair, pale skin of her exposed legs and arms, and Froon's almost as striking clothing and extreme height, I do not understand how any man could make a mistake like that.
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  180.  @NadaYoTengo  Okay. I have maybe confused my commentary with counterfactual 'mights' in the perpetrators mind.. Back to basics. In a nutshell, the perps knew the area extremely well, and understood they did not need to worry about the girl's cell phones. Moreover, the perps actually used the phones to manufacture a cover story by storing the phones for ten weeks and subsequently leaving them to be found. That seems to me a very above average level of confidence in one's grasp of such technology in someone who also had a very detailed knowledge of the trail area (pretty disparate types of knowledge for one man to have). Our guy is quite intelligent, organized and patient enough for carrying out a long term plan. Scarlet R is the best on the background, but Arnold Donaldson has the first principles right. Scarlet is very fair in making allowances for 'F' and his attitude now being a result of the internet accusations he has been subjected to, but if a couple of local Boquete girls had disappeared like that their Panamanian fathers and brothers would be doing more than sending him nasty e-mails, eh? Scarlet ought to remember that he never faced an investigation that began from the starting point of having identified the girls' deaths as a double homicide. He was not professionally interrogated. In an interview in July 2014, he said the girls could not have gone off the trail, but then he said the danger is to keep going too far along the trail. This is a slander on the common sense of two girls. One must draw one's own conclusions as to why someone who is so familiar with that trail thinks a 4.39pm emergency call by two girls intending no more than a days walk. and understanding they had the same ground to cover on the return was made while heading towards the cable bridge, (which they could not have possibly reached by that time).
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  181. Sounds like you know what you are talking about. Maybe it is foolproof, but you would need to be very (over) confident such was the case, and expert professionals could not detect some anomaly in the total data to stake everything on the SIM card removed log fraud duping everyone. The guy we are talking about was already identified as a figure in the case by being a guide hired by them for the next day for the very same trail. And raising the alarm. Finds of manipulated phones wouldn't need Sherlock Holmes to conclude it was likely a double homicide, and anyone who admits that possibility is inexorably led to the conclusion it was him. I think the phones were used out of range by him from a very early stage. If the girls were in signal range the most dangerous point for the for the perpetrator(s) would be the initial assault to actually getting the girls under his control, and that necessarily would have happened when THEY had their phones and were only seconds from getting through to the Emergency number. Women of that age can use their phones very quickly, and are fearful. I think being out of signal range had two benefits . One they could not call for help. Secondly it let the lost calls deception require only a normal amount of technical knowledge. Also, the phone data for the 2nd shows a gap between 8am and 11am when our man was In Boquete in the morning . The 2 second connection on the 2nd is consistent with him making a mistake about being in a signal free location due to all the running about he was dong that day.
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  182.  @NadaYoTengo  I think this crime indicated a perpetrator with an extreme degree of local knowledge of the area where the girls last daytime photo was taken, previous experience of being around tourist using their phones all along the trail, and quite a bit of cunning. What you are suggesting would need only low tech to do, yet a massive surfeit of tech understanding to do without having any worries about a professional tech expert team spotting what had been done. I think our perp is like a fox, tricky on his own ground, but not off it.
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  183. Yes. If in doubt don't .
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  184. Shocking levity about girls who died tragically. It is explained by him thinking that the day they went missing they made a emergency call each, then went on taking photos of the scenery with them posing. See 10:52. But Grande has simply misunderstood the sources, who are all in agreement that the last photo taken on the day they went missing was taken not long after 2pm. The emergency calls from Kremers's and Froon's phones were hours later, at 4:39 pm and 4.51pm respectively.
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  185.  @meab12  "I know it's wrong", that is what you said about you LOLing. I was just agreeing with you about yourself. And explaining Grande made a factual error.
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  186. Go to reddit and join the contrarian's club
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  187. You cannot call it common sense and assume that Kris and Lisanne had zero common sense.
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  188. You have common sense, F has cunning.
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  189. Yes and an hour past it.
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  190. Yes that is simply a mistake by him. The failed emergency calls the day they disappeared were on their cell phones but may not have been by them. Indeed there is good reason to think it was not them. First it was Kris's phone that called initially and only once then there was a gap of twelve minutes and Lisanne's cellphone tried to call the emergency number. Lisanne was a lot more nervous than Kris; it might be credible that Lisanne called the emergency number and Kris told her not to be so silly so she gave up immediately, but but not the other way about. Kris would have kept redialing the emergency number. If she saw Kris calling the emergency number, Lissane would have been terrified and started calling too. So those calls were a trick by the killer.
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  191. Kris and Lisanne's phones. like almost all good phones even back then in 2014 had a standard feature whereby they did not need any pin code to entered to make an EMERGENCY call.
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  192. Can't have it both ways.
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  193.  @BengalCatChilli  The girls' holiday was over and their stint working with children was not going to start for a week later than they had anticipated. They were watching their money to buy toys for the children. F says the girls had booked day guided tours with him for Wednesday, Friday and Saturday. The Wednesday one was for the Pianista trail, which is the same one they did on Tuesday and went missing on after they went on the rough trail that goes down the other side of continental divide. F said he raised the alarm on Wednesday because Kris and Lissane did not turn up at the Pianista trailhead at 8am as agreed. But even if they had returned safely on Tuesday evening they would not have been there the next morning, because they would hardly had paid for a guide to walk the same trail on Wednesday that they had walked the day before without a guide. Kris and Lisanne were well brought up, educated and properly behaving young women. They would have cancelled the arrangement for Wednesday well beforehand, and as soon as they knew they were not going to fullfill their end of the agreement for the Wednesday guided walk on the Pianista. They would have cancelled Monday evening or Tuesday morning at the latest. So draw your own conclusions.
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  194. No helicopters were flying at night.. Their screams could have been heard miles away at night and they were never more that a few miles from people.
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