Comments by "TombWraith" (@Tomb-Wraith) on "Pro-Choice And Pro-Life Supporters Search For Common Ground | Middle Ground" video.

  1.  @johncollins8828  That is only an estimate made by people. There is no national statistic on how many people are waiting to adopt, and many experts understand that the 1 to 2 million is a large over estimation. Only about 2-3% of couples who consider adoption will actually adopt, and that number decreases as the child gets older.
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  2. Or that child could also grow up to be a horribly evil person. This is a terrible argument. More people who have suffered abusive childhoods grow up to be abusers themselves than vice versa.
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  3. Only if the woman is 5 months along or more. At least on a federal level.
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  4. False equivalence fallacy. You are comparing a sentient individual to a non sentient developing fetus.
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  5. Since the fetus is biologically attached to me, and ceases to function if I stop function, yes it is my body. Also, you don't understand how abortions are performed, though I cant say I'm surprised. Rarely are surgical procedures used. Also no, because a fetus is not a child and abortion is not murder. Go back to school. You need the education.
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  6.  @lsgold01  Because it's their right to autonomy over their bodies. Dont get me wrong. I think when the fetus is sentient abortion should be off the table. But to ban all abortions wouldn't fix anything
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  7. Ethan Walker No, we just know the consequence of forcing a mother to give birth.
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  8. But I do have the right to abort a parasite if I so chose.
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  9.  @lsgold01  Because it is? It takes beneficial nutrients from its mother and decreases her quality of life. Being a parasite doesn't necessarily mean its bad. That's just a inference you're making.
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  10.  @jakephilipak3363  Yes, because I've witnessed it.
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  11. And what about the kids who WOULD rather die? Why do you assume they would rather live in miserable conditions than die? Someone who has a potential for a great life depends on the caring of the people around it for that potential. NOT everyone has potential. That is simply unrealistic.
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  12. The body attached to me and feeding off my vital nutrients is my body until it becomes sentient. Period.
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  13.  @vaguepepper4028  a parasite is an organism that depends on another organism to survive at the detriment to the host organism. So until the fetus can biologically depend on it's own, it's a parasite by definition.
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  14. matthew Pro life is saying you want to strip people of their rights and want to see children be abused.
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  15.  @nf4866  Anyone who says a fetus isnt "alive" flunked basic biology. However, everything is just a cluster of cells on a biological level and "life" does not matter. Sentience is what matters. There may or may not be a grieving period because everyone grieves differently. Theres also a grieving period for women who have had an abortion. Because most women did not want it to come to that.
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  16.  @endefisto123  Kinda hard to be murder if its legal, since that goes against the definition of murder. And no. Someone who was "pro-abortion" would demand that anyone who gets pregnant aborts.
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  17.  @enigmafiresup4658  Hate to break it to you, but the fetus is biologically attached to the womans body and is stealing her vital nutrients. Most women do not choose to abort if the man steps up as a Father. He should absoutely have a say. However, it is ultimately her body until the fetus gains sentence.
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  18. skiddly You apparently don't know what the definition of a parasite is. It's a being that solely relies on another for survival. And until a fetus develops it's own body and organs, it's a parasite. The again, you can argue that kids are parasites because they need their parents to protect them. This is why it's important to differentiate between life and sentience.
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  19. I dont believe that a doctor would ever tell a patient that, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Just because you are one of the lucky ones doesnt mean everyone shares your viewpoint, and to force that on others is condescending and disrespectful. There are some people who genuinely hate their life, and preaching that they should be lucky they're alive is disgusting. No, its not easy to just "not have sex" when you body wants it. In fact, its extremely unhealthy. You promise some one will? Then why do so many children sit in foster care and adoption centers? Where are all those people? Oh that's right. They don't exist in the numbers you claim. Congrats. You made it. Not everyone does. And believe it or not, there are children who wo uk old have rather been aborted.n
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  20.  @martacastillo6272  No, the fetus has half of your DNA and half the DNA of its Father.
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  21.  @martacastillo6272  No it isnt. Unique means different from everything else. You still have 50% DNA from both your parents. You're using a colloquial term for the word unique.
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  22.  @carliewright7079  You're not sick for thinking abortion is not murder. You're correct. It's not. That's not an opinion. That's a fact at this point. It's not baby killing. Its termination of a non sentient parasitic fetus.
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  23. Risthebest YT The fetus is not it's own body at the time of most abortions. It is not separate from the mother and is only developing that body by taking vital nutrients from her. Life is not the problem here. The fetus is not sentient, while the mother is. Forcing a mother to give birth to a child she can't handle will only result in neglect and abuse. Most pro choice people don't like abortions and wish they didn't happen. But we understand why a woman would make that choice.
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  24. Sorry, but until that fetus becomes sentient, it is my choice what to do with it. Also, yes it is my body. It is only developing because it is being a parasite on me.
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  25.  @humanbeing3056  Its not my job to do anything. It's my job to make an informed decision about what goes on inside my body. No, my body does not belong to anyone but myself, and if I cannot care for it, I have the right to abort it. Sentience is achieved between 10 and 12 weeks when the brainstem finishes development. The heartbeat does not beat independently from the mother until between 9 and 12 weeks, although sometimes you can hear it as early as 6 or 7. Also, murder by definition is unlawful. So no, abortion is not murder. I believe it should be a last resort, but I think you're a very cruel person if you want to see children abused and neglected by people who aren't capable of caring for them.
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  26. You don't own another person. You absolutely do not have any power in the final decision. You absolutely should speak up and talk to your partner, but you don't own her body anymore than the fetus does.
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  27.  @martacastillo6272  Unique: being the only one of its kind; unlike anything else. That is a lie. Your DNA is similar to your parents just in a different order.
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  28. Because they aren't sentient. Their rights are equal to yours. They do not supercede yours.
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  29.  @tealwashablemarker8886  Oh? Then in that case, I need a kidney to survive. You should be obligated by law to give me one of yours if you're a match, even if it causes you lifelong problems. After all, my right to life supersedes your right to bodily autonomy.
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  30. Mind your own business. If I choose to end my own life or a woman chooses to have an abortion, that is none of your business.
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  31.  @britishmgtow7251  And you will not save anyone by doing this. You'll just increase the number of fetal deaths and raise child abuse and neglect rates.
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  32. Ashley Ayers Everyone is a hypocrite in some aspects. If I was killed in womb, I still wouldn't care, because I would have lacked a brainstem needed to care. A fetus is not a child. Only when you truly look from other perspectives and see why women have abortions, cab you fix the problem that will end the need for abortions.
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  33. It is my right. I have a right to bodily autonomy. Also "innocent life?" You don't think that's a bit vague? Animals used for slaughter are "innocent life". Adoption isn't always an option, doesn't guarantee happiness or safety for the child, and is not a solution to unwanted pregnancy. Because sometimes death is better than life.
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  34. Then I wouldn't be here and I wouldn't have cared. How is this an argument?
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  35. Haven't you noticed that evey argument for pro-life is hypocritical and uncaring?
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  36.  @vaguepepper4028  I never said parasites are inherently negative. They aren't. Also no. When my health and welfare deteriorates because of a non-sentient entity, then it is my right and choice (at least in the US) to terminate it. Abortions should be a last resort, but is an option for a reason
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  37. So what about the almost 15% of women who cannot take contraception because of blood disorders? Just ignore our bodies huh? 5 words: All birth control can fail.
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  38.  @sibery139  They cannot be sentient if they lack a brainstem. Abortions usually take place before sentence is achieved. I have stated this numerous times, but when that fetus becomes sentient, I believe abortion should be off the table. Abortions are very rarely done surgically anymore, and when they are, the mothers are usually given a local sedative, but they are completely conscious. Surgery's aren't performed on fetuses. They're performed after the child is born, unless you are speaking about abortions.
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  39.  @martacastillo6272  If its attached to me biologically and growing and developing by stealing my nutrients, then it is a part of me. No one is owed respect. I decide what happens with my body when the fetus is a non-sentient parasite.
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  40. Justin Green Your argument falls flat because a fetus doesn't feel pain at the time of most abortions. It has no brainstem nor nerve endings with pain receptors.
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  41.  @kiwa17  No you don't. Because if you did, you wouldn't demonize my mother for wanting to abort me. Don't you get it? I wish I had been aborted. People like you are the direct reason why I suffer. So quit pretending you care.
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  42. Biologically, a fetus is not a baby until it's born. If that fetus is not sentient and is biologically dependant on me for survival by taking my vital nutrients, then it is my choice what happens to it.
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  43. Some people don't understand what murder is. Examples of people who the education system has failed.
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  44. Those who believe life is precious are deluded. Sorry if that's harsh, but you aren't special. There are hundreds of millions of other people who are just like you. Life is hard. Some people can get through it and some cannot. Quit pretending like you speak for everyone.
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  45. topherh33 The ones who don't need it should be taken off of it. That's not the point. A fetus until a certain point is a non sentient developing series of cells. If a mother is unfit, better to abort the fetus when it's not sentient than to abuse and neglect it when it is.
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  46.  @millepia3607  Correct. I don't care that you have an opinion. I simply gave you mine as well. "You can end your life if it's so horrible". So then you aren't pro-life. Pro-life doesn't just apply to abortions.
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  47. I highly doubt you're actually pro-life by definition. You're probably "pro-life with exceptions"
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  48. Some people also need to understand the definition of murder, and the difference between killing or termination of life and murder. You cant physically hurt something incapable of feeling pain. By the way, how come that sentiment only applies to humans, and not the animals you slaughter for your cheeseburgers?
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  49.  @chungs6496  Its almost like an unborn child is a non-sentient human without the capicty to feel, as if we do not already have DNR's and slow codes. I'm sorry that your emotions blind you to reason. Think I'll stay in medical school.
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  50.  @chungs6496  Abortions at 22 weeks are done for medical purposes. 97% of abortions are performed before the end of the first trimester, where a fetus has no consciousness. Absolutely late term abortions should not happen unless for extreme reasons. I assumed you knew abortions aren't performed at 22 weeks often. I also would assume you would know that most abortions don't tear the fetus limb from limb. Its done via a medication and a D&C. If we're being technical, life starts at implantation for the fetus itself. Never said it didn't. You seem to like making assumptions.
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  51.  @chungs6496  No. Not at all. We don't give rights based on life. We give rights based on sentience. Even if we granted the premise that a fetus has a right to life, it does not have that right at the expense of a person. Your right to life is equal to my right to liberty, which is why abortion has never been overturned.
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  52. There is nothing wrong with having a child. Some people as certain point just cannot physically, emotionally or financially handle that child. It's the biggest responsibility in the world. A fetus is not a child.
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  53. No one advocates for killing kids, so your kinda spinning a false narrative.
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  54.  @keer-stin  A person who cannot take the pill also cannot have IUD's dumbass. It's the same active ingredient. I'm talking about those of us who cannot use contraceptives period. Condoms break, and even "pulling out" does not always work. The bottom line is there is no method, other than abstinence, that prevents pregnancy. 3 words: Your point is?
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  55.  @keer-stin  I dont think you understand how contraception works. Birth control only affects to person who takes it. It doesn't prevent their partner from getting pregnant. I am a straight female. My boyfriend doesn't take contraception because he doesn't have a uterus. I cannot take contraception because I have MPA and lupus. Condoms can still fail. Therefore, if I ever become pregnant, I will make the decision for myself whether or not to abort.
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  56.  @ellieb8627  I never think suicide is inherently a bad thing, and anyone who does has never felt what it feels like to be in that place. Suicide occurs when pain outweighs pain management. If someone truly believes that their life is not worth living, then I believe it is selfish to force them to live their life. By the way, since a fetus lacks a brainstem at the time of most abortions, it cannot think. It doesn't care what you do to it. The only one who cares are people like you. You cannot miss something you never had.
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  57. As if everyone who has an abortion is sleeping around. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.
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  58. Abortion has been around since ancient times. It was not "invented" as an easy way out. Anyone who considers an unborn not human flunked biology. It is alive. So what? It's not sentient. Pregnancy also comes from protected sex. Birth control and condoms can and do fail. A child should not be abused and neglected by unfit parents because you decided death was worse.
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  59. What Reagan didn't understand was that some of us are failed abortions.
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  60. Douglas Thompson Not really. It's not a debate to be won. Nobody wins.
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  61.  @martacastillo6272  That doesn't make something unique. Your genetic code is 99% similar to your parents. Hate to say this, but the things that make you different are more psychological than DNA based. Just because it's not exactly the same doesn't mean its unique.
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  62. Justin Green They don't feel pain until between 14 and 15 weeks, since that is when the brainstem and the nerve receptors develop. No state has that. You need to go back to school. I believe the cutoff date should be when a fetuses heartbeat begins separately from the mother, which is at 12 weeks. Most abortions take place between 6 and 9 weeks.
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  63. Mathilde Young It's not about life when it comes to abortion. It's about sentience.
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  64.  @nightlythoughts4701  It is not a mutualitstic relationship. The fetus provides no benefit to the mother. Sending stem cells? Not only is that not how that works, the is 0 evidence behind that. Never said it wasnt alive, nor did I say it isnt human. As far as "right to life" that is a man-made law, not a natural one. The law says a fetus doesn't have a right to life until between 20-22 weeks. Do I agree with that? No. Abortion should be off the table when the fetus gains sentience. You have no intrinsic right to life.
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  65. But you can't back up pro-life with secular facts. Other than "life begins at conception" and "the fetus is human". Everything else concerning abortion pertains to subjective morality.
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  66.  @avaloewenberg6369   Oh I agree with that. I just don't believe a doctor told her mother "Shes just a waste of goods".
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  67. Except its not, because murder has an established definition.
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  68. Yes. Imagine being for the bodily autonomy of people.
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  69.  @lucykhaos7503  I don't. I just want fetuses to have a stable life with a family that wants and loves them.
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  70. You only speak for yourself and don't have the right to dictate how others feel. My mother sold me to men for 2 years straight for drug money. I was thrown down a set of stairs and now have a permanent spinal cord injury. That suffering is so much worse than death.
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  71. And third trimester abortions are done for exclusively medical reasons
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  72.  @chungs6496  Aww does the truth hurt? I'm sorry to hear that. Guess I should just burn my master's degree and drop out of medical school.
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  73. Leticia Rodrigues Oh there's not enough children out there. Let's force an unfit mother to give birth so she neglects and abuses her child. You're not pro-life. You're pro-birth.
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  74.  @theoboegoddess  I don't believe in this so called Jesus. Also. I don't need a carpenters son who preaches that I should be killed for my disbelief in his daddy.
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  75. The fact that you don't know the difference between a baby and a fetus and don't even consider why people would be pro-choice or against capital punishment is beyond ignorant.
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  76. Right and wrong are subjective. I'd argue its also not right to strip a person of their bodily autonomy.
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  77.  @chavezharding7820  It is a combination of the two. I'm not saying it isnt it's own organism. I'm just saying it is not unique from its parents on a biological level. It's also not unique from other humans.
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  78. Jonathan Shorter For the record, most if not all pro-choice people believe that too
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  79.  @uncleblazing1507  Have you read the Bible? The story of Tamar in Exodus talks about killing an unborn child because the mothers pregnancy was not wanted. In Hosea 9:14, we are told God will cause the deaths of the unborn, as he will “give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.” In Hosea 13:16 it is proclaimed: “Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.” In Isaiah 7:20 and 10:5, it is stated that the Assyrians will be used by God as the means of implementing these punishments. In 2 Kings it describes how they fulfilled this role: 8:12 And Hazael (future king of Syria) said, Why weepeth my lord? And he (Elisha) answered, Because I know the evil that thou wilt do unto the children of Israel: their strong holds wilt thou set on fire, and their young men wilt thou slay with the sword, and wilt dash their children, and rip up their women with child. 15:16 (Then Menahem smote Tiphsah, and all that were therein, and the coasts thereof from Tirzah: because they opened not to him, therefore he smote it; and all the women therein that were with child he ripped up. The Bible is IN NO WAY anti-abortion.
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  80. I'm sorry that wanting bodily autonomy makes you want to end it.
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  81. Why are pro lifers hypocrites incapable of understanding language and biology?
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  82.  @chungs6496  Yeah, I understand. I'd also walk out if my child was a pathological liar with no basic understanding of autonomy rights.
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  83. Or you could actually not be dishonest and actually look at the facts. Not a baby. Not murder.
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  84. Good thing abortion isnt murder.
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  85.  @JesusPowerIsInYOU  Yeah, because I'm not deluded into thinking I'm special. I think rationally.
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  86. If abortion is wrong, its wrong regardless of reason. So don't be a hypocrite.
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  87.  @conor.3875  I was referring specifically to abortion with that statement. And it is hypocrisy. To claim moral highground on a position only to engage in that action is hypocritical. Not that that's a bad thing. I don't think anyone is "morally consistent" and that's okay. Just admit the cherrypicking. We're on the same side, so I have no idea why you are debating me.
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  88. Imagine being shocked about being for rights to bodily autonomy.
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  89.  @bigmacwithoutcheese8851  par·a·site /ˈperəˌsīt/ noun an organism that lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the host's expense. That's exactly what a fetus is. Parasite isnt necessarily negative.
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  90.  @blaecccuebbler7711  Fetuses do not have legal rights until personhood is achieved.
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  91.  @blaecccuebbler7711  No, personhood isn't defined just by being a member of the human race. The state or fact of being an individual or having human characteristics and feelings. We have characteristics we use in philosophy to define personhood, and whether or not you agree with this, one of those criteria is sentient consciousness. Something a fetus gains as it develops, but is not inherent. The difference between a black person and a fetus is a) sentience and b) the infringement of another's right. Doesn't have anything inherently to do with the law. Morality itself is a subjective concept, so arguing only from morality (which is what most pro-life people make abortion) is fallacious.
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  92.  @parthenon5106  You stop a beating heart when you support the slaughtering of sentient animals as well. What's your point? Unlike you, I don't place human beings on a pedestal. If a mother has the means to not abort, then she shouldn't. I always believe abortion to be a final option. But I also realize that banning it will not save anyone.
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  93. HipposOnCrack There is no way to stop unwanted pregnancies.
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  94. hansNgilbert Someone doesn't know what the definiton of murder is. An argument can be made that a fetus is not a someone until it can start to function independently from its mother. Which is after the time most abortions take place.
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  95. Your opinion doesn't negate facts.
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  96. The vast majority of women do not have regrets about their abortion. Myself included. More likely, you're pro-life until you or a loved one needs/wants an abortion.
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  97. Leticia Rodrigues Oh is it? Then how to children die at the hands of abusers, even when CPS is involved? The fetus doesn't give a shit if you abort it. It literally can't care. No one is pro abortion. We just understand why a woman would choose to make that decision. It should be about sentience and the quality of life that child will have, not strictly whether it's born or not.
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  98.  @travisjohnson7065  Since when is an organ "property" of anyone other than the person of whom it is? If the law should ban abortion, the law should force healthy people to donate organs, since you have then stripped the right to bodily autonomy. It is not my problem that a fetus cannot develop without the use of my organ. Its that simple.
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  99. Mehtap A fetus is not a baby. A fetus, at the time of most abortions, is a non sentient parasite. There is a big difference between killing an adult, and making the decision to abort.
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  100. And those are always considered in a majority of cases. There are also numerous reasons why those choices are ruled out.
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  101. No its not.
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  102.  @travisjohnson7065  Nah. Being pro-life is just anti-rights.
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  103. I love how you assume that all pro choicers sleep around. And you still don't understand the difference between murder and killing.
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  104.  @sibery139  Some abortions can happen as late as 24 weeks. The brainstem doesn't fully develop until between weeks 10 and 12 and after that, abortion should be cut off. The brain is only a mechanism for thoughts and emotions. The pain center that registers pain is in the brainstem. No, it isnt. Very rarely is that done anymore. You are given a pill or injection that terminates the fetus and then are induced, as you would for a miscarriage. I have never heard if surgery performed in utero. That carries far too many risks. I've heard of a pregnant mother being operated on while a fetus is in utero, but not on the fetus.
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  105.  @xthunderstonex6873  Thats not what murder is. And no. You are terminating the development of a fetus.
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  106. Except its not, which then by definition, would not make it murder.
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  107.  @dumbspud9890  That's not what murder means. Murder is the unlawful killing of one person by another. Abortion is neither unlawful, nor is the fetus considered a person under the law until specifications are met.
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  108.  @tristinjudd2595  Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. I don't care if its a living human being. Its still a parasite. It does NOT have brain activity at the time of most abortions. Bacteria, insects and animals are alive too. Yet you have no problem killing them. If she does not consent to fetus using her uterus, she has the right to terminate the pregnancy while it lacks sentience for any reason. Period.
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  109.  @chavezharding7820  That may be a case, but that is not what defines a parasite. They rely on their host for their own survival, and up until a certain point, a fetus falls into this category. It doesn't have to be a parasite its whole life to still fall under the definition of a parasite.
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  110. Emmanuel Poullard A fetus could be argued for or against personhood. Yes, you are killing a potential for life. There's a reason behind it.
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  111. Emmanuel Poullard No I said potential for life. To me, there is a difference between simply "being alive" and "living". Yes, a fetus is alive. But it's not living it's own life separate from the mother at the time of most abortions.
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  112.  @youawesome2068  Keep pretending you actually care.
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  113.  @mistynights2834  A fetus isn't a baby, nor is it a sentient creature. Thats the difference between a dog and a fetus at the time of most abortions. The fetus is living. But that isn't the argument. Humans are animals, and placing one on a pedestal is hypocritical. Sentient life is what matters. That doesn't apply to an early developing fetus.
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  114. Because its not murder? Or a child?
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  115. Bacteria have individual DNA. Animals for slaughter do too. Why don't you care about them? If its not her body, then show me a fetus that can grow without the use of a woman's uterus. No, its not murder. In the US, thats not an opinion.
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  116. A fetus isn't a person at the time of most abortions.
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  117.  @chungs6496  Because you are being deliberately dishonest calling non-sentient fetuses children in order to spin a narrative. That's called lying.
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  118.  @demaxpacks5168  I never said it wasn't living. It is. I don't think life has inherent value. And it legally doesn't have rights, something I also never said it shouldn't have. 1. No. No its not. That "body" doesn't just magically appear. That body develops by using the placenta. 2. You're right. Which is why most pro-choice people draw the line at sentience. Fetuses aborted after this period make up 3% of abortions. 3. Because its not a baby. Baby means post utero. It is a fetus. Now, if you want to colloquially call it a baby? Fine. But its not. I think abortions should only be allowed that late for medical purposes.
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  119.  @mathildeyoung1823  Abortion not being right is your own subjective opinion. I don't believe its right to force an unfit mother who cannot care for herself to have a child. And quite frankly, I don't really care how you phrase it. I believe every option should be explored before considering abortion, but what someone chooses to do in their life is none of my business. Especially when it comes to no sentient being harmed in most instances.
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  120.  @bellaschwartz352  You should try reading the Bible. Its very much pro-choice.
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  121.  @bellaschwartz352  Oh yes it is.
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  122.  @bellaschwartz352  That's fine. Just don't say the Bible is against abortion. Because its not.
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  123. Homebirth Homeschool Homestead It's not about life. It's about sentience. A child being kept alive by a machine when it has no brain-stem sounds torturous to me. 22 weeks is nowhere near the age where most abortions are performed. The right to life starts when a being gains sentience and is able to function independently from the mother on a biological level. A fetus doesn't care if you abort it, (unless you're having a late term abortion). The only ones who care are the mother, her friends and family, and people who can't mind their own business.
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  124.  @benjatorres6208  It doesn't exist without my uterus. Without implantation, it is non existent. So I'm sorry, but until you can show me a fetus that can develop without MY uterus, it is my body.
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  125.  Lizzie Allen  Those are entirely made up numbers. 1 life also has the capability to end millions of lives. So tell me why those millions deserved to die because that one wasn't allowed an abortion option?
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  126.  @Earth.Ground.Shaking  Nothing is objectively wrong. But don't claim you care when you don't. You don't care about the situation, you don't care about the mother. You just believe death is the worst possible option. Just be honest about your intentions.
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  127. So...are you vegan? If not, you support killing as well. Or is it just that humans are on some pedestal?
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  128. Most people already do, and abortions are harder to get than people might realize.
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  129. No, its because we understand the difference between a sentien baby, a sentient fetus, and a non-sentient fetus. Unlike you, we passed basic biology.
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  130. No, abortion isn't murder as it doesn't fit the definition of murder. By the way, you understand the pro-choice doesn't just include abortions and being pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion?
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  131.  @gregpresley1466  Abortion is not murder. Murder, by definition, is unlawful. Killing does not equate to murder. I have no problem convincing myself that an abortion that takes place before sentience is not immoral. The problem with the argument from morality is it is subjective. You may personally view it as immoral where as others do not. In my personal opinion, if its consensual and no sentient being is harmed, then its not my business. Thats my subjective opinion. I argue forcing an unfit mother to birth a child she will abuse and neglect is immoral. By the way, a fetus is not a child, either medically or biologically. By the way, pro-choice doesn't just apply to abortion. And also, having an abortion is not convenient anymore than having an unwanted child is.
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  132.  @timholloway7413  So here are the problems with your argument. 1) Abortion is not murder or homicide. 2) You are being disingenuous and changing the definitions of those words to suit your narrative. Murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of one PERSON by another. Abortion is neither unlawful, nor is the fetus a person, even though it is human from conception. Killing does not equate to murder in all circumstances. 3) Yes it is. No problem with that. 4) Morality is entirely subjective, and I can think of many instances where, I bet, you would justify the taking of human life. No, I don't agree with your premises. In fact, the only one I agree with is 3. If it is 99% similar to other humans, it is not unique in any sense of the word other than maybe colloquial. "Unique" literally means being the only one of its kind or being unlike anything else, which is absolutely not the case.
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  133. So a couple of things I just want to point out. 1. You do know you can be against abortion and still be pro-choice right? 2. If you are pro-life, you are against abortion in ANY circumstance. If you claim to make exceptions for certain cases, yet preach how its wrong, you are a hypocrite. 3. Murder is a legal term. Abortion is, by definition, not murder here in the states. Killing? Sure. Murder? No. 4. No one educated judges viabilty or personhood based on a heartbeat. The medical and scientific community bases it on brain activity. You are legally dead when your brain activity ceases, not when your heartbeat stops. 5. 96% of abortions are performed before the fetus is 13 weeks. These are done via a pill, not a vaccum commonly seen. Vaccums and surgery are done for late term abortions, nearly all of which are done for medical purposes.
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  134. If you're referring to abortion, thats not how most are performed.
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  135.  @conor.3875  Moral principles shouldn't have exceptions. If the OC wants to argue abortion should only be allowed in certain circumstances, they are a hypocrite.
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  136.  @conor.3875  No, I'm not denying morality. I in no way think abortion is immoral, regardless of the reason. Perhaps you and I just differ in details and broad picture.
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  137.  @blaecccuebbler7711  No you don't, as you elevate the right to life over someone's right to their body. Period. And these rights are equal. I don't get to take a kidney from someone just because I'll die without it
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  138.  @blaecccuebbler7711  You are trying to make a potential for life matter more than someone's right to their own body. And thats not what we stand for. The right to life is EQUAL to liberty. My right to life cannot infringe on your liberty. And again. Fetuses don't even have these rights until sentience and personhood are achieved.
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  139. Funny, because your Bible supports killing children who disrespect their parents and abortions.
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  140.  @iannawilliams6951  You do not speak for everyone.
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  141. When you look at it in terms of real numbers, its no longer fractional. Sure. 2% of a population is tiny. Until you realize thats millions of people.
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  142.  @mathildeyoung1823  Uhh no. Not in all cases. I never said pregnancy is a parasitic disease, but a fetus does fall under the established definition of a parasite. I want to restate that a parasite is not necessarily a bad thing.
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  143.  @mathildeyoung1823  A fetus fits the established definition of a parasite. If the parasite has to be a different species, then why is there a birth defect called "parasitic twinning?" The fetus lives off the host mother and decreases her quality of life. I'm not saying that is necessarily a bad thing, but it is what it is.
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  144.  Lizzie Allen  That makes zero sense. Why would an atheist be against woman's rights, since the only real basis to be against abortion is religious?
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  145. No one is pro abortion, dingbat. You're a killer if you aren't vegan. Get over yourself.
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  146. KnownEast Good thing abortion isn't killing babies. It's killing a fetus that doesn't care.
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  147.  @parthenon5106  The UNLAWFUL taking of human life. I would read the definition again because you clealy don't.
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  148. Rachel Elise There's a difference between a sentient person and a non sentient fetus.
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  149. No, because thats asuming that pro-choice only advocates for abortion. It advocates for the CHOICE including motherhood, adoption OR abortion. If you want to classify that as such, then I'll call yours what it is. Pro-Choice vs Pro-Neglect.
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  150. Except you have that choice. Go to the court and terminate your parental rights. Then you no longer have to pay child support. Oh but wait. You want the tax, healthcare and work benefits of having a child without ever having to pay to raise the child. Sounds fair.
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  151. You do realize that not everyone believes in your God and not everyone has psychological problems from having an abortion right? You're being a condescending ass right now.
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  152. You can't destroy someone on a moral argument. Its literally opinion based.
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  153. Except that is not factually accurate. A fetus's development is being terminated.
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  154. erica West Protection doesn't always work and the adoption system is broken as hell. Better to abort a parasite than abuse and/or neglect a fully functioning baby
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  155. Yeah...imagine wanting women to have rights over what goes on with them over a non-sentient fetus.
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  156. You aren't pro-life. You're pro-choice. Pro-life by definition is against abortion in any circumstance.
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  157.  @mirandaclements2359  Pro-life doesn't just refer to abortion. Not to mention most pro-lifers makes exceptions for the mothers life and in cases of rape and incest.
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  158. That's only a guess you can make. Tell that to people that wish they had been aborted. Also, tell the fetus to develop on its own then without using someone else. Oh wait.
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  159.  @lucykhaos7503  So then what's the problem?
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  160. No, "baby" in the womb is a fetus. Only survives via attachment to a woman's uterus. Irrelevant points if its distinct, growing or human.
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  161.  @thefourthtuxzt3078  Simple. It wouldn't. I'm smart enough to know that I'm not special, and that there are thousands of other people like me.
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  162.  @thefourthtuxzt3078  Umm no. There is no deeper. If I had been aborted, I wouldn't be here. Simple as that. Sure, the lives around me would be different. So what? Who's to say it wouldn't be for the better?
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  163. Its not "technically" murder. Murder is a legal term. Its terminating, or killing, a usually non-sentient human fetus. That child could also become the next Timothy McVeigh or Jeffery Dahmer. Many of us who were the products of unfit parents, who were not lucky, wish we would have been aborted.
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  164.  @blaecccuebbler7711  It doesn't. And with abortion, the fetus has no right to life. It does not have rights, whether or not we agree with it. Thats why abortion has cut-off dates. Because that is when a fetus is a person. Sentience. That's when it has rights. Something being alive doesn't mean its living the the colloquial sense. Thats why me, as someone who is pro-choice, places the "value" on sentience.
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  165.  @blaecccuebbler7711  And if you have any sense, you would understand the reality that when born to unfit parents, that potential for living a happy life is small. But that doesn't matter to you. You would rather see millions suffer for the thousands that get lucky. And to me, thats vile. My life was literally destroyed because of people like you. Perhaps that is why I am so passionate.
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  166.  @aubreyprice9933  Because I think your "opinion" is wrong and harmful.
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  167. I would argue the pro-life group is more "triggered".
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  168.  @christianjilwan8817  Someone on a feeding tube is not comparable. They do not rely on anothers organ for their survival. The fact that its human means nothing.
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  169. You know that may mean in a negative way, right?
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  170. Leticia Rodrigues I called it a fetus because that's just what it is. It's not a baby until after it's born. I'm not the one who lacks sympathy. You cannot have survival instincts without a fucking brainstem. Really? I hear everyday children come up to me and tell me they would have rather been aborted and how much they want to kill themselves. At a base level, everything is a cluster of cells. I never fucking denied that. I'm very different from a fetus in the sense that I have fucking sentience. You know what's despicable? Wanting a child to be born regardless of the life or conditions it's born into.
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  171. Leticia Rodrigues Yeah I do. I deal with juvy and homeless kids who are awaiting trial or on the streets because their parents couldn't fucking care for them. Its a whole different ballgame when you are dealing with kids who don't come from loving or supporting houses. That isn't something you can just teach away. By the way, they're very good at hiding it. You can claim they all had a love for life. Maybe you were just too blind to see their pain. Despicable to prefer a broken, nasty, abused life to death. Believe or not, there are some people who would rather be dead.
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  172. Leticia Rodrigues Who cares if it's a minority? The fact that it happens is sickening. No, I deal with kids like this to try to help them see another way, because they are born now. I work with them to try and ensure that they AREN'T this way their whole life. I don't know what their future holds. Killing a non sentient fetus and killing a sentient being are two different things. Instead of trying to just outright ban abortions, focus your time into treating the root causes of why a woman has an abortion. If we all did that, we COULD end the need for abortions. I'm all for that. I want to one day live in a world where abortion is no longer around. But forcing a woman to give birth when she can't take care of herself is not the way to do it.
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  173. Leticia Rodrigues No, because an unconscious person still has sentience. You're still capable of perceiving the world around you.
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  174. Leticia Rodrigues You didn't say in a coma. That depends entirely on the situation. Also, you don't stab a fetus. That's not how abortions work. Again, there's a difference between life and sentience. You're only charged with a double homicide if the woman is 5 months along or greater. Just because you want it go be born does not mean it should or wants to be. Not everyone wants to live.
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  175. Leticia Rodrigues The states do not control the federal law. Do your homework. We've had 3 pregnant woman murdered in the last 8 months here. None of their suspected killers have been charged with double homicide. Know why? Because the state law does not override the federal law. That being said, I think that needs to change. I completely agree with the state's on that. It's one of the reasons I got into Criminology in college. Again, you're the one who's also trying to decide whether it lives or not. You're the one who doesn't understand what murder is. For me, it has to do with quality of life, because I'm tired of hearing children about to go to prison saying they wish that they had been aborted. Also, for the last time, I would love to see an end to abortions. But you're going about it the wrong way.
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  176.  @LOWERCASEJOKE  Way to attack someone for liking an art style as opposed to having any argument.
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  177. Thats a strawman argument. The two are not comparable.
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  178.  @SWillTiamG  One is sentient and has rights. The other is not and legally does not outside of the uterus.
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  179. Mehtap An unborn child also doesn't choose to be born. How do you know it even wants life? I could make that argument.
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  180. Mehtap Since when do people need a reason to die? Life isn't beautiful for all people. It's downright miserable for some, and forcing a mother to give birth will put that child in that miserable situation.
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  181. Louis Castillo Condoms break and humans naturally have sex. It's human nature. Wanna know how to fix this? Don't tell others what to do with their own bodies.
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  182. Forced birth = wrong.
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  183. No where on the law books is that a viable option except in cases where the baby or mother will die. Have you even read your own laws?
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  184. It is not a separate individual. It is biologically dependant on its mother and its physically attached to her. Souls have yet to be proven to exist. It is not my responsibility to care for a child. Period. That is a privilege, not an obligation. By the way, you have 0 idea how abortions are performed nowadays. Rarely are abortions performed surgically.
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  185. Because there is no scientific argument to be either pro-life or pro-choice. Its about legality and your sense of morality.
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  186. So its selfish to understand you cannot provide for a child, and rather than throw it into a broken system where it will likely be abused, you choose to end it before it can feel? That doesnt sound selfish. You know what sounds selfish? Forcing a woman not connected with you to keep an unwanted pregnancy simply because it makes you happy.
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  187.  @kateeaton562  No, the fetus is a fetus because that what it biologically is. I find it so repulsive that you're ignorant as hell. There is no practical reason for the death penalty. There are plenty of practical reasons why people abort. Get perspective
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  188. Sex and pregnancy are two different functions, even if one directly leads to the other. They BOTH require consent. Also, abortion is taking responsibility. Because they're self aware, and understand they will not love this child the way it needs and deserves to be.
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  189.  @wifeu6966  No, its not. Nice try being dishonest. Murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. Abortion does NOT fit this definition.
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  190.  @wifeu6966  No, actually it doesn't. Because we do not get the idea of personhood from biology. It comes from philosophy. Now if you argue that a fetus conceived by 2 humans is alive and human, then yes. You are correct. But it is not a person.
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  191. Because pro-choice is about making a rational choice about what is best for you and the unborn, not immediately jumping to abortion. Pro-life is more anti-life than pro-choice is.
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  192. Bunny Kotton kandy 1) No it's not murder, as murder is by definition unlawful. 2) No, life is not inherently valuable. 3) Fetus, not a baby. 4) The fetuses developing body is physically attached to you and is only developing that body by leeching off your vital nutrients. So it is your body up until that fetuses body can start functioning on its own.
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  193. Bunny Kotton kandy No dear. Taking a life is KILLING. Taking a life UNLAWFULLY is murder. Abortion doesn't fall into that definition in the United States.
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  194. Because no one wants to put in the effort or money it takes to fix the system.
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  195. Pro life= moronic fucks who are so mentally ill that they don't care about the rights of other people or quality of life.
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  196.  @0786RICARDO  I already have. I have been and will always be pro-choice.
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  197. 1) The majority of the population is mentally ill. And 2) How is advocating for rights of women deluded?
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  198. In 96% of abortions, the fetus isn't "conscious". The other 4% are done nearly exclusively for medical reasons.
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  199. It isn't, if you want to be really technical. Its killing a fetus, since "baby" is post-utero. Its certainly stopping the development of a fetus into a baby.
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  200.  @emperortrajan2461  Birth control fails. Spoken like a true hypocrite.
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  201.  @emperortrajan2461  And yet it still fails. So what about those who get pregnant on birth control? Are they allowed abortions?
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  202. Pro birth more like it...
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  203. Funny. I get the same feeling hearing pro-life arguments.
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  204.  @eugengolubic2186  No, they just advocate for the destruction of rights of both women and the dying, probably because they've never taken a law or anatomy class.
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  205. So you're a hypocrite. If the life is valuable, its valuable no matter what. If the right is valuable, then abortion should be an option regardless of reason.
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  206. Yeah no. Forcing someone to do anything just because you want them to is vile.
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  207. That just...kinda makes you a hypocrite.
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  208. Because it isn't a type of murder? A fetus has no choice as, legally, it is not a person. We could argue all day about whether that's moral or not. Also, its not a baby until after birth.
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  209. Abortion isn't murder. People aren't ready to raise children sometimes. Hopefully one day, that won't be a problem.
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  210. Yes...because its just that easy for everyone right? Oh wait...
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  211. But that would be wrong, considering a) abortion isn't murder and b) you can be anti-abortion and still be pro-choice.
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  212. Except its not.
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  213.  @travisjohnson7065  Your belief doesn't make something reality. I aborted my first child. I do not reget it. I did what I felt was right. And I stand by that decision and am happy knowing that I now have two children I was able to have.
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  214. Lol no it isn't. By nice strawman attempt.
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  215. No, mothers shouldn't have to be forced to give birth in non-ideal circumstances and children should not be subject to neglect and abuse at the hands of people who care about function over quality.
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  216.  @martacastillo6272  If a parasite has to be a separate species, why is there a birth defect called "parasitic twinning?"
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  217. Thats a false equivalence fallacy. Abortion is not murder. No one has the right to murder.
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  218. Emmanuel Poullard I think someone should face the fact that they don't have a dictionary or can't be bothered to Google the word murder.
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  219. Mathilde Young Comparing a human race to a fetus is completely illogical. Human beings are not intrinsically valuable. I could make the argument that child doesn't want to be born. If there was a way for doctors to know that for sure, than it should be up to the person themselves. This is why living wills are important, because it states exactly what you would want done in a situation like that. The cutoff already varies from state to state. If Roe vs Wade is overturned, which it won't be, abortion would be outlawed. Period.
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  220. There are so many children in adoption agencies already. Who cares if its human? Humans are not on a pedestal. Birth control is not always cheap, can always be taken or is available everywhere. Adoption should most certainly explored, but cannot always be done.
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  221. Yeah, at 18 it just gets worse. You are kicked out on the street with nothing. No work experience, no education, no income to pay to find a job or go to college. Nothing.
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  222. "That baby would have been somebody's best friend, somebody's parent." You literally don't know that. You are making a, frankly, baseless assumption. "You don't get to take that away from them..." You do. It is your uterus. It is your liberty. That is your decision. "That kid could solve world hunger..." Yeah, and he could also be the next Ted Bundy. That is a ridiculous argument.
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  223.  @uncleblazing1507  The Bible does say it's okay. There are horrid things in the new testament as well. I don't care what the Rapist Church teaches about abortion.
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  224. Then by definition, you're pro-choice. Pro-life is against abortion in all circumstances. By the way, you understand that not everyone has access to birth control right?
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  225. I understand what you are saying, but you are also pro-choice. Because you support abortions in certain circumstances. By definition, pro-life is against abortion in any case.
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  226. I also can't get my head around pro-lifers. So I guess we're even.
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  227. It isnt until the woman is 5 months along or more. Shows what people know about law.
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  228.  Lizzie Allen  In all of my career, I have had far more pro-choice couples adopt than pro-life. And I live in a conservative state.
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  229. In the first trimester, its done via a pill. Nearly all late term abortions are done for medical reasons. You make such a bigger deal out of it than it actually is.
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  230.  @JessVarano2  Everything is simply a bunch of cells at its biological level. It is human, but it's not a baby. Its not a baby until after birth. It seems you lack basic biology. Abortion should be off the table when the fetus is sentient
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  231. I'm pro-choice, had an abortion, and have two children. So I fail to see your point
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  232.  @aventurandoconfredy  I'm sorry that you don't have an understanding of anatomy or biology to not know that a fetus has no conscious until a certain point.
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  233. How about to children like me who were permanently disabled and scarred because you demonized their mother out of an abortion? Who now have to go through life struggling? Where's your love for us?
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  234. No their really isn't. Because science doesn't take a stance on a moral argument. Its neutral. However, you can use science to arguing for one side or the other. Just as you can use science to argue pro-life, I could use the same science to argue pro-choice.
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  235. Then you're pro-choice. Anyone who is smart understands life begins at conception, no matter what side of the spectrum you fall on.
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  236. "Deserving to live" is a subjective argument. I would argue death is a better alternative than experiencing suffering. But thats because of my personal experience.
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  237. The Bible does not forbid abortion. Look at Hosea.
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  238.  @nihilist5820  And that is why I'm an atheist.
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  239. Lol no its not.
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  240. Oh...you mean like the pro-life movement and you just did? Kinda hypocritical huh?
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  241.  @itsoktobewhite1987  "justified baby killings". It's not a baby. Its a fetus.
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  242.  @itsoktobewhite1987  In this case? Fetus of humans. I'm not saying it isn't human. I'm just saying it isn't a baby. Baby means post utero. When you use terms like "baby killings", you're making a false comparison in order to guilt people. That's dishonest and manipulative.
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  243.  @itsoktobewhite1987  Its more honest. Still would be better to say "fetus killing." This is always the problem with pro-life. They're just really disingenuous and dishonest.
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  244.  @itsoktobewhite1987  Murder is a legal term and only a legal term. A fetus isn't a person. Murder =/= killing and human =/= person.
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  245. Rudy Ramos-Lozano That fetus has no free will. It has no brainstem at the time of most abortions. It physically cannot care. You know what's unloving and unethical? Forcing a child to be born into an unstable household with unfit parents that can't care for it
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  246. Rudy Ramos-Lozano That isn't true either. You can't prove that. Only people who are religious believe in a soul. You cannot be sentient if you lack a brainstem. Leave your damn religious beliefs out of this.
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  247.  @travisjohnson7065  And yet there are many people who do not regret having abortions. Belief is not knowledge. Your subjective opinion should not dictate the law.
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  248.  @travisjohnson7065  Being wrong is subjective, conversation I believe you and I have had before. I meant your opinion on it being wrong. Not the definition of an abortion.
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  249.  @travisjohnson7065  No, not inherently. I take the view of the entire situation. There are plenty of instances I can think of that I see no ethical dilemma with taking innocent human life. Fetuses, legally, do not have the right to life. And even if they did, that right would be equal to the woman's right to liberty. You simply don't get to live at the expense of someone else without consent. You also know that abortion isn't convenient. Stop using that tired lie.
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  250.  @parthenon5106  That is what she's saying. Just not directly. She did have that choice and because of how it made HER feel, others should not have that choice. That is hypocrisy.
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  251. No, women want the choice to terminate a pregnancy if other options do not work out for them. Abortion is not murder, at least in the US. You are anti-woman if you try to restrict a woman's rights.
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  252.  @mathildeyoung1823  No. I have stated this many times. I think abortion should be off the table when the fetus becomes sentient. By the way, most abortions are not performed surgically. A law should not be based solely on emotion. A law should be practical.
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  253.  @jetparonable5667  Murder and genocide violate the rights of a sentient being. Abortion does not. You are creating a strawman by conflating the two. No, it shouldn't. Because human life is not inherently important. Thats an opinion and has no basis in science. People who "lose their sentience" are braindead, and are often taken off of life support. Would you consider that living? Why do you think slow codes and DNR's exist?
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  254.  @jetparonable5667  I don't deny that. I understand life starts at fertilization. We disagree because you place value on life wheras I place value on sentience. Sentience is the ability to think and feel subjectively. It begins when the brain synapses form. No, thats your opinion. I don't believe life in inherently valuable. But that is just me.
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  255. Egg Head Since murder is "the unlawful killing of one human being by another" no. Abortion is not murder. Try again.
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  256. Risthebest YT Because there are people who do very late abortions, which in my opinion is wrong. It's okay if you still don't agree
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  257. Homebirth Homeschool Homestead No, they don't. That is a complete lie. Most abortions take place between 6 and 9 weeks, well before a brain-stem has developed. They physically lack the capability to care, unlike a newborn. Late term abortions are a different story. It's not about life, it's about sentience. A majority of people I know were never feed breastmilk. Nor was I. You are never required to breastfeed a baby. It is encouraged, but never required. My mother's milk dried up 3 days after having me. I no longer needed her biologically. Yes, I needed her physically to raise and take care of me. But I needed nothing of her's biologically. I'm not gonna bother answering your hypothetical, because it's a weak argument that has no basis in reality.
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  258. Homebirth Homeschool Homestead Most people tend to be uneducated on the subject and only care when it comes to their own personal lives. I don't mind answering hypothetical's, but they have to be realistic. Both of these hypothetical do not occur. No doctor is going to give a non consenting woman a pap smear or an abortion. If she chooses to abort at 6 weeks, the fetus feels nothing. It is not capable of feeling. You cannot miss something you never had. If the mother feels she cannot give the child the quality of life it needs to grow and survive, then she should not be forced to have it. That is my subjective moral opinion.
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  259. A & A World No, your killing a fetus- A non sentient developing child. Your pro life until a loved one gets raped and she wants an abortion.
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  260.  @ebonie4002  I am having a mature conversation with you. You came at me and insulted my intelligence, so I simply told you what I thought. This is something you learn in biology. So excuse me if I question your intelligence when you clearly came at me.
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  261. Hailey Xx That's a disgusting and horrid thing to say. Sex is also meant to be pleasurable to the body. It's not just for procreation. You know what's selfish? Forcing a child to go through horrific abuse because you forced an unfit mother to give birth.
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  262.  @EvanHarris456  Having a child is not always a responsible decision. Are you actually saying that people who look into abortion CHOOSE to neglect and abuse their child? That is the dumbest thing I have ever read. They dont CHOOSE to neglect and abuse their children. They have no CHOICE because they cannot financially, physically or emotionally handle a child. Is this the case in all circumstances? No. But it certainly is in the majority. If you support abortion under ANY circumstance, you are pro-choice by definition, though that is not what I would call you. I would call you "hypocrite".
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  263. No. For two reasons. A) A fetus is not recognized under the Constitution as a person. Sure, its of the human species, but it lacks personhood. And B) Your right to life cannot infrige on another person's fundamental rights. Just because I'll die without blood or an organ doesn't mean a doctor can just take those things from you. Consent is needed. Simple. Because as a woman, it is my choice what I do with my body.
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  264. Well, because it is.
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  265. Someone doesn't understand what the definition of murder is
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  266.  @Earth.Ground.Shaking  There are no objective truths when it comes to morality. My opinion is meerly my own. Subjective morals can lead to an objective goal, but that's my 2 cents.
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  267.  @Earth.Ground.Shaking  Okay, now you've lost me. I'm not interested in your sermon. I don't believe in God.
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  268.  @Earth.Ground.Shaking  I don't know why this conversation moved from abortion to religion. I was a Christian for over 20 years. I lost my faith when I stepped out of confirmation bias and tried to prove God existed without using religious text. Bottom line, there is no evidence for a God, so I don't believe in one.
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  269. You should probably finish that, since "liberty" and "pursuit of happiness" also apply here. You understand that these rights aren't ranked right?
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  270. Way to not take into consideration all the people who didn't want to live past birth and whose lives are now destroyed. But as long as their alive right?
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  271. Why?
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  272.  @d.j.wellington  Oh? So I guess killing someone in self-defense shouldn't be okay. I guess DNR's and Slow Codes shouldn't be okay. I guess defending yourself in a war-zone isn't okay. No. I'll stand up proudly for others rights. Fuck off with your hypocrisy.
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  273. Because sex is about way more than reproduction. Reproduction, to some, is just a possible outcome.
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  274. No its not. No one is forcing you to get an abortion if you don't want one.
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  275.  @IAMAPIRL  They're fighting to keep abortion legal. But many of us are also fighting for sex education, more funding for neonatal care so we DON'T have to abort, access to mental health professionals and care and access to contraception. Its not just about abortion.
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  276. A fetus is not a child. It is not sentient at the time of most abortions. These two things are not comparable. It is totally different.
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  277. "Legal muder" is an oxymoron, because for something to be "murder" it must be "illegal." Its just as wrong to force an unfit mother to go through pregnancy and birth.
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  278. @Dave m Ten biblical episodes and prophecies provide an unequivocal expression of God's attitude toward human life, especially the ontological status of "unborn children" and their pregnant mothers-to-be. Brief summaries: • A pregnant woman who is injured and aborts the fetus warrants financial compensation only (to her husband), suggesting that the fetus is property, not a person (Exodus 21:22-25). • The gruesome priestly purity test to which a wife accused of adultery must submit will cause her to abort the fetus if she is guilty, indicating that the fetus does not possess a right to life (Numbers 5:11-31). • God enumerated his punishments for disobedience, including "cursed shall be the fruit of your womb" and "you will eat the fruit of your womb," directly contradicting sanctity-of-life claims (Deuteronomy 28:18,53). • Elisha's prophecy for soon-to-be King Hazael said he would attack the Israelites, burn their cities, crush the heads of their babies and rip open their pregnant women (2 Kings 8:12). • King Menahem of Israel destroyed Tiphsah (also called Tappuah) and the surrounding towns, killing all residents and ripping open pregnant women with the sword (2 Kings 15:16). • Isaiah prophesied doom for Babylon, including the murder of unborn children: "They will have no pity on the fruit of the womb" (Isaiah 13:18). • For worshiping idols, God declared that not one of his people would live, not a man, woman or child (not even babies in arms), again confuting assertions about the sanctity of life (Jeremiah 44:7-8). • God will punish the Israelites by destroying their unborn children, who will die at birth, or perish in the womb, or never even be conceived (Hosea 9:10-16). • For rebelling against God, Samaria's people will be killed, their babies will be dashed to death against the ground, and their pregnant women will be ripped open with a sword (Hosea 13:16). • Jesus did not express any special concern for unborn children during the anticipated end times: "Woe to pregnant women and those who are nursing" (Matthew 24:19). Your God is absolutely NOT against abortion.
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  279.  @SydLane  Termination of a potential human life does not equate to murder. Murder is a legal term. Killing? Yes. Murder? No. The fetus is not a child. Child and baby are post utero. Fetus is in utero.
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  280. Protection isn't always available, nor can everyone take them. Abstinence is fine if you don't have a libido that needs constant tending. If a fetus shouldn't "loose its choice to live", then its hypocritical to allow abortion for rape either. That fetus didn't have a say in whether its mother got raped. The right to abortion is just that. A right.
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  281. And yet, the Bible absolutely condones both genocide and abortion. Sounds like it can't make up its mind. There are plenty of examples of God's people slaughtering unbelievers, and ripping children from their mother's wombs. Or how about punishing children for the sins of the father? Stop picking and choosing which Bible verses you site.
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  282. @Humanity Galatica A pregnant woman who is injured and aborts the fetus warrants financial compensation only (to her husband), suggesting that the fetus is property, not a person (Exodus 21:22-25). • The gruesome priestly purity test to which a wife accused of adultery must submit will cause her to abort the fetus if she is guilty, indicating that the fetus does not possess a right to life (Numbers 5:11-31). • God enumerated his punishments for disobedience, including "cursed shall be the fruit of your womb" and "you will eat the fruit of your womb," directly contradicting sanctity-of-life claims (Deuteronomy 28:18,53). • Elisha's prophecy for soon-to-be King Hazael said he would attack the Israelites, burn their cities, crush the heads of their babies and rip open their pregnant women (2 Kings 8:12). • King Menahem of Israel destroyed Tiphsah (also called Tappuah) and the surrounding towns, killing all residents and ripping open pregnant women with the sword (2 Kings 15:16). • Isaiah prophesied doom for Babylon, including the murder of unborn children: "They will have no pity on the fruit of the womb" (Isaiah 13:18). • For worshiping idols, God declared that not one of his people would live, not a man, woman or child (not even babies in arms), again confuting assertions about the sanctity of life (Jeremiah 44:7-8). • God will punish the Israelites by destroying their unborn children, who will die at birth, or perish in the womb, or never even be conceived (Hosea 9:10-16). • For rebelling against God, Samaria's people will be killed, their babies will be dashed to death against the ground, and their pregnant women will be ripped open with a sword (Hosea 13:16). • Jesus did not express any special concern for unborn children during the anticipated end times: "Woe to pregnant women and those who are nursing" (Matthew 24:19).
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  283. @Humanity Galatica Actually it does. And I've already given you tje verses
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  284.  @michael-k.  There is no such thing as objective morality, no matter how you try. Nothing in nature tells you what is right. A fetus can't consent. It has no sentience nor rights. Yeah, because people waiting to be adopted are never abused and everyone who is in adoption centers get adopted, right? Oh wait. Also no. A fetus isn't a baby until after birth.
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  285.  @michael-k.  I have plenty of morals, and I don't priotize life. Sentience is what matters to me, not life. Also, just because I'm pro-choice doesn't mean I think an abortion is okay at every stage, nor should ot be the first option you run to. Maybe get some perspective from people who disagree with you.
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  286.  @michael-k.  I don't know anyone who thinks late term abortion is okay. Its physically impossible to get morals from nature because morality is a human concept. I get my morality from secular humanism.
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  287.  @le_hope8349  I didn't say that. If you make the decision to get sterilized when you're young, that's permenant. You can't reverse that if you change your mind when you're older. That's why doctors don't do it usually before you're 30. I'm not saying I necessarily disagree with you. But it opens people up for lawsuits. Then either they're a rare case, or they had a hard time getting pregnant to begin with. It's not "meant" to be there. It just shouldn't "be" anywhere else. The problem is anecdotal evidence is not credible. Everyone is different. There are many people who don't want kids now who want them in the future.
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  288.  @peruperaoOo  I dont hate myself. I hate my past. And acknowledging that not everyone achieves happiness like you claim is not disrespectful. Its reality.
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  289. Absolutely. However, it being human should have no sway in abortion, if we are being honest. By the way, DNA is not unique in a scientific sense. You are 99% similar to all other humans.
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  290. Sure. But that doesn't guarantee they won't be abused, neglected or killed by a failing system.
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  291.  @DeathsHood  Lets not forget Hosea.
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  292.  @DeathsHood  Yep.
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  293. Your skull is way to thick and your brain way too small.
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  294. Using adoption as an option should be explored. But you have to understand that aborting a fetus doesnt mean you dont care. Putting a child up for adoption isnt free, and theres no guarantee that child will ever BE adopted. There are so many more children in adoption centers and foster homes than there are families willing to raise and care for them.
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  295.  @Layla-dr4oc  That is your subjective opinion. Forced birth and pregnancy is also not right.
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  296.  @connermcgarrah2171  Forced pregnancy is making it illegal for any person, regardless of reason behind it, to carry and birth a child. Period. Doesn't matter if its rape, failed contraception or just unprotected sex.
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  297.  @connermcgarrah2171  No, you aren't understanding. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. Not allowing abortion for any reason whether it be incest, rape, medical, failed contraception or unprotected sex is FORCED pregnancy. Period.
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  298. Not really. Facts don't support either side in a moral debate. We can use facts to build our own opinions.
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  299. topherh33 mur·der ˈmərdər/ noun 1. the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. The key word there is UNLAWFUL. Abortion is NOT UNLAWFUL so is therefore NOT MURDER. Yes, basic cells have started to form. But it has no BRAIN nor BRAINSTEM it cannot be sentient. A newborn and a 1 month old has a FULLY FUNCTIONING BRAIN and is able to perceive the world around it. Therefore it has sentience. I would have rather been aborted than have to deal with the shit I had to deal with as a child who was ABUSED by the system before FINALLY finding a home when I was fucking 9. You people don't even bother to see the other side of it.
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  300. topherh33 Apparently you can't read, because again, abortion isn't murder. Abortion would have prevented me from being abused by a drug addicted mother who couldn't care for me. When the fuck did I ever say there was nothing wrong with abortion? Never once did I say that. I just believe in people having the right to CHOOSE what is done with their own body. I'm not young. My parents are at fault for the shit that THEY did to me. If I make a mistake in life, I own up to it and do better. That's why I don't abuse others even though I thought for the longest time that was normal. When I became an adult, I no longer had to let anyone abuse me. That doesn't mean I'm not fucking damaged and don't sometimes wish I wasn't aborted. You have a great job? Good for you. I can't even fucking work because my MOTHER broke my lumbar spine. I am striving to do better in life. I did things I hated to do to put myself into college. So don't accuse me of not taking responsibility. You don't have to like or agree with abortion to not try and outlaw a woman to have control over her own body.
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  301. topherh33 Not in my country it isn't, and this debate is in AMERICA. So in AMERICA, it's not murder. I'm not mad at my mother for not aborting me. I don't care either way. There are times when I wish I had been aborted. I'm almost fucking 30. I'm not a young adult. Bullshit you have no legs and 3 fingers. You wouldn't be able to work if that was the case. Abortion is a woman's issue, because a FETUS is not a CHILD. You wanna argue that? Take it up with biological scientists. Not all women are victims, but they deserve to be able to have CONTROL over a FETUS that does NOTHING BENEFICIAL FOR THEM. I'd bet that you would still love your wife and female family members if they had an abortion because they were not able to care for that child.
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  302. topherh33 In all honesty, this whole conversation doesn't matter. Roe vs Wade will never be overturned and abortion will never be outlawed in the United States. You have your feelings. I have mine.
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  303. topherh33 pardon me, but I don't believe you. I don't believe you be able to function without extreme medical invention, especially if you were so severely burned. I had a fractured lumbar spine and had a spinal fusion when I was 14. Around my 16th birthday, I developed neuropathy in my legs and by 18 could no longer walk. Nobody will hire me because I'm considered an "unreliable employee" What part about what I said makes you think I'm an abuser? Everything I said was just factually accurate. I have 2 sons whom I love very dearly. Never have I laid a hand on them. Also, nice ad hominem. Never once did I insult you. I don't like mountain dew or fried chicken. I will state my position one more time. Factually, a fetus is not a child nor a baby. Factually, a fetus provides no benefit to the mother. However, I believe that woman should take precautions to avoid having unwanted pregnancies and should explore every single alternative possibility before making the decision to have an abortion. That being said, I do not think it is right to deny a woman a right to have an abortion, if she has explored every option and does not feel fit enough to be a parent. Sort of like I believe suicide should be the absolute last resort, I feel the same on abortion. That is my stance.
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  304. lani Sentience is the difference. By the way, abortions at 4 months rarely occur. Most take place between 6 and 9 weeks. Also, a fetus isn't in the stomach.
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  305. No not really. Pro-life has to rely on religion and moral fallacies to have any kind of point.
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  306. Its not in all circumstances. Under federal law, a woman has to be 5 months along or more before its considered a double homicide. In other words, the cutoff date for most state abortions. Perhaps learn the law before you try and use that as an argument.
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  307. Nope. Thats not the way that works.
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  308.  @llrxnzloll6831  Thats her right. No one has the right to not care for the children they birth.
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  309.  @llrxnzloll6831  I have no idea what your talking about. I never denied it wasn't human. And as someone who came from an entirely dysfunctional home and was failed multiple times by the state, I would have rather been aborted. But thats me.
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  310. Pro-life arguments in general are horrible.
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  311. Why do you only extend that compassion towards human life? You take no issue killing bugs in your house. You take no issue eating meat from slaughtered animals, unless you're vegan. You're just a hypocrite who only values human life, instead of all life. Here's something to think about. I was a failed abortion, and because of that, I grew up in a horrible environment. Now, I was one of the few who made something out of her life. But that's because I was strong enough to pull through it. There are so many children out there who aren't like me. They're failed by their parents and then shoved in a broken system. Try thinking about the quality of life. A non sentient fetus is unable to think or feel. A sentient child who is born, is able to think and feel. When you force unfit parents to have that child, you cause a chain reaction. I'm not trying to change your opinion. I'm simply giving you my view and something to think about.
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  312. You arent pro life by definition if you support abortion in ANY circumstances.
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  313. Mathilde Young Way to compare apples to oranges. A cat, a born being with a developed brain and nervous system capable of understanding emotions and feeling pain, to a fetus, a parasitic group of cells incapable of feeling because at the time of most abortions, neither the brain nor nervous system has developed.
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  314. Mathilde Young He or she has the potential to be a human being. It is a fetus until it develops enough to scientifically be classified as a human being. Humans and cats are both animals. Why is one more important than the other? I'm not discriminating. I would love to live in a world where abortions were not necessary. But I would rather see a fetus, unable to comprehend or feel pain, be aborted than have it be born to a neglectful parent who will either kill it when it CAN feel pain, or abuse it to the point that it grows up to abuse someone else.
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  315.  @faithelizabeth9309  No it isn't. Why do you place so much value on a heartbeat and not brain activity? Killing doesn't always equate to murder.
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  316.  @faithelizabeth9309  The brainstem doesn't even develop until between 12 and 15 weeks, and the actual brain not until between 20 and 22. I would also make sure you know what you're talking about before you argue.
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  317. Thomas Benedict Abstince does not work. It goes against human nature. Human beings want to have sex. It's a pleasurable experience. Abortion has nothing to do with life. It has to do with sentience. Most abortions are performed between 6 and 9 weeks. No brainstem, no heartbeat, no sentience. The choice is never easy, but I know many women who don't regret their decision to abort. They just regretted the circumstances they were in that forced them to chose abortion.
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  318. Shishter Shishtar If they're truly pro life and not hypocrites, yeah. But most pro life make an exception for rape.
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  319.  @TomCL-vb6xc  I don't really care if you find it appropriate. If the Bible is God's word and it matters so much, then a woman is property and cannot do anything without the approval of her husband or father. I was simply proving a hypocritcal point. If you're trying to take away my rights, I will insult you.
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  320.  @TomCL-vb6xc  People like this? Yeah it is a waste of time. Someone like Syd who's entirely uneducated on the topic of abortion will never change her mindset. Its called cognitive dissonance.
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  321. Good thing your opinion only matters to your own life. Isnt it nice how you have the CHOICE NOT to have an abortion? How would you like that choice infringed upon? Most fetuses are aborted in the first trimester, between 6 and 8 weeks. They have no brainstem, and are unable to comprehend anything. They lack sentience. Most abortions are also not performed surgically. They're aborted with drugs and then induced, just as you would a miscarriage.
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  322. That's not what that word means.
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  323. Because condoms are 100% effective right?
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  324.  @juliastolowska8760  Efficient enough? According to who? Studies disagree with you on that. How about this. Have sex in a healthy way and use whatever you want to prevent pr terminate pregnancy.
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  325. You don't dehumanize it by calling it what it is. I'm perfectly fine admitting that abortion is terminating the development of a fetus and ending its life. That doesn't make it a child. Its potential for a child and is the lesser of two evils. Pro-choice gives you all thenoptions pro-life does. Its not like you must get an abortion.
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  326. @Jack Daniels Unlawful literally means "against the law" which abortion is not. Nor is a fetus considered a human under the law, even if it is biologically.
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  327. Someone obviously doesn't know what the difference is between killing and murder.
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  328. Lol. You don't have to be liberal to support the choice for abortion. Try thinking about quality yeah?
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  329.  @susansanborn5686  If it was death upon children, which its not. Its termination of a non sentient fetus. Take a biology class.
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  330. Sky's the limit Sex is a natural human reaction. The human body wants to have sex. I think it's selfish to force a woman who is unable to physically, emotionally, or financially handle a child. Your life is not inherently valuable. Guess what? It is an option. Because some people actually can see consequences from all aspects.
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  331. Slenderman Zavala A fetus that is not sentient doesn't care about rights. Focus on quality of life, not whether or not it's born
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  332. I'm pro-choice. Wanna talk? See most are respectful and reasonable.
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  333. Lol no not in the slightest. When your only argument is "muh religion" you've got no ground to stand on.
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  334. The fact that people believe that life is inherently valuable is puzzling to me. Also, on what planet is abortion convient?
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  335. Yes...because protection is 100% effective right? Oh wait...
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  336.  @travisjohnson7065  Fetus. Not baby. And actually, a fetus has no legal rights until personhood is established, which is why we make cut off dates for abortion (though even I think they should be lower than they currently are). You have a right to life only because the country you live in says you do. Not because its a natural right. You don't get control over another person's uterus.
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  337. @Eddie Davies The fetus has no rights until a set point. We can debate all day about the morality of that.
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  338. Abortion rates actually went down the last few years, though they are elevated. You know whats irresponsible? Forcing an unfit mother to give birth to a child you know she cannot care for. By the way, I recommend you get educated on the difference between "killing" and "murder".
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  339.  @parthenon5106  "No one is forcing anyone to give birth" How is trying to make abortion illegal NOT forcing people to give birth? Also, sex is not just about creating life. Because a fetus has no legal rights until a certain point. It lack sentience. Also, no its not murder, because its not unlawful.
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  340.  @christianjilwan8817  Well, your morality is subjective. Personhood only comes from sentience. Value of human life depends on who you're asking. I don't think life has inherent value. Yes, your right. A person who is in a coma because they are brain dead do lack personhood. That is why it is not illegal to take them off life support. That's why hospitals have slow codes. They will deliberately not help someone they know they can't save.
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  341.  @christianjilwan8817  No, I wouldn't agree that killing someone is objectively morally wrong. Because I can think of several instances that killing is justified. Objective morality does not exist. That's not an opinion. That's a fact. Now subjective morality can apply to an objective moral framework, but the morality is still subjective. Actually, the definition of a comatose is someone who is in unconsciousness for an indefinite or prolonged period of time. It is up to the next of kin whether or not to continue treatment, unless otherwise stated in a will. I'm assuming you are referring to a medically induced coma, and that is also up to the next of kin. I do not think you know how the law works.
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  342.  Lizzie Allen  Well, considering your God is very pro-choice, I don't think he would care.
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  343. Then you aren't pro life if you would make exceptions. Pro life is against abortion in any circumstances.
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  344. Your emotions are yours alone. No one elses. Having an abortion does not impact you medically. Its a safe procrdure.
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  345.  @ethanm.2411  Again, that's my right as a woman. I don't owe a fetus my uterus.
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  346. Do you consider that a good or a bad thing?
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  347. @Ankh You really like pushing your rhetoric huh?
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  348.  @bobspizza7444  Sure it is. As long as you can pay for it. You literally just walk into the courthouse. No, she doesn't. She just has to go to a clinic and pay out of pocket for an abortion. That is fair. If she doesn't want the child, there are options she has. If you don't want to pay for the child, there are options you have. How is that not fair? If you have a child, you DO get a tax break. BOTH parents do. Even if you break up, you still claim the child on your taxes. You HAVE to. If you choose not to be parent, then don't be a parent. You still get tax breaks even if you are not involved in the childs life. Unless of course you're committing tax fraud.
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  349. Polar bears are sentient. Fetuses are not. And I doubt only pro-choicers would protest.
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  350.  @BLane-xr1ic  No one would care if a polar bear got an abortion.
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  351.  @blaecccuebbler7711  I don't believe anyone would care.
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  352. Procreation is not the only point of sex. Thats the issue. Its a function of sex, but its not its only purpose. You do realize protection fails, right?
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  353.  @lillyana3681  It is for procreation. But its also for damage control, stress relief, and pleasure. Sex has more than one biological function, even though procreation is the main one. That doesn't negate one's right to an abortion.
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  354. You would first have to prove to me a God existed. And assuming your Christian, I would say "hey, your book is certainly not against abortion. Pick a side".
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  355. And then the Bible advocates to throw babies against stones and rip open the wombs of pregnant women. How sacred.
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  356. Krystal Mayes i would argue no, because it's a non sentient fetus. We have no problem killing animals for food that have sentience, or bugs because we don't like them, which also have sentience. I doubt anyone has an abortion, at least in a majority of cases, because the fetuses life is not valuable. It's because they cannot care for another sentient being,.
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  357. Krystal Mayes No of course. I don't believe in calling names. I can totally understand why you wouldn't want abortions to happen. I wish they didn't either. You've been very respectful. It was nice not to just be called a baby killing murderer.
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  358. Because no one murders a child. And frankly, a fetus doesn't care if its aborted. It lacks the capability to care.
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  359.  @blaecccuebbler7711  You obviously know what they're referring to, so yes. Abortions are safe.
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  360.  @blaecccuebbler7711  You're now being dishonest, because you know the OC meant for the woman. Quit pretending life is so precious to you. You're not vegan, you're probably not anti-gun or anti-capital punishment. You're not against slow codes and DNR's.
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  361.  @blaecccuebbler7711  Now you're just a liar, because I have previous posts of you saying the exact opposite of what you just told me. By the way, DNR's are not always voluntary and are sometimes made by family members who did not know what the person wanted. Let me ask you something seriously. Are you against physician assisted suicide?
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  362.  @blaecccuebbler7711  The reason I asked that question is because I assume your pro-life. You do realize that being pro-life is also against euthanasia right? Several comments here have a differing opinion to what you just said. If you, however, really ARE all these things, then I don't personally know how you cope with life.
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  363. Are you pro-life? Or pro-life only if its convenient?
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  364. Except its not. Because pro-abortion implies that the default to pregnancy is abortion. How about saying anti-choice and pro-choice? Same thing. There's a reason its called pro-choice. Because it provides OPTIONS. Not JUST abortion.
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  365.  @TheMityquin  Not a liberal, but we don't say it because it's an incorrect term. Pro-choice gives women that option too. Except it also gives them the right to their bodies that they're entitled to.
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  366.  @baddust7187  Except murder is a legal term. Now, if you come from a country where abortion is outlawed, and that country recongizes an unborn fetus as a person, then yes. It would be murder. That is not the case here. For the US at least. Therefore, here, abortion isn't murder.
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  367.  @baddust7187  The unborn aren't babies.
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  368.  @baddust7187  Then are you a vegan? That's life. You can't live without taking life.
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  369. Mathilde Young Animals are sentient creatures. A fetus until a certain point is not. Bug difference.
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  370. Mathilde Young Seriously? You're comparing sentience to race and religion? That's beyond ridiculous. The damn child wouldn't have fallen in the gorilla cage if the fucking parents had been watching it. Nor did the gorilla start attacking the child. Your life does not have intrinsic value, and abortion will never be made illegal in the US, because we're not a totally ass backwards country.
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  371. Mathilde Young That is not a fact. That is an opinion. Ever think that many women Do? Just because you go to a resource center does not mean you will get any help. Adoption agencies have been turning children away in the last few years because they don't have the room. And giving them to an adoption agency doesn't mean they'll be adopted. It's sad that you can't get perspective
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  372.  @saradanser894  Unique: being the only one of its kind; unlike anything else. Your code is a combination of your mothers and fathers. That is not unique. By the way, if you're only a vegatarian, you still harm animals, as you buy and use animal products and still consume dairy and eggs.
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  373. So is stepping on a bug or not being vegan. Your point?
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  374.  @mathildeyoung1823  Yeah so what?
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  375.  @Emmie-p8x  No, because it isn't murder.
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  376.  @Emmie-p8x  Because murder is a legal term, and abortion does not fit its definition. Killing? Yes. Murder? No.
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  377.  @mathildeyoung1823  If thats what the mother thinks is best for her situation, then yes. I support that decision. So long as its made carefully and she has full knowledge of all other possibilities.
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  378.  @Emmie-p8x  A fetus is not a child. No child is killed during an abortion. A potential life is terminated. It is not inhumane to have an abortion when the fetus is unable to feel or experience.
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  379.  @travisjohnson7065  That is straight up coming from someone who had an entirely privileged life. Because I almost guarantee you would not feel that way if you actually were in or talked to anyone in foster care for a prolonged period of time. Way to be a condescending asshole to the people who wish they had been aborted.
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  380. Abortion is not murder. Neither science nor the law is on your side with that one.
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  381. No, I doubt it.
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  382. When it involves your right, it is your choice. Whether or not the fetus is human is, legally, irrelevant. You actually don't know anything about these programs, because they rarely offer any significant help. They may provide a bit for neo-natal care, but certainly do not help you with medical costs, costs for the child after birth, and daycare help. They simply do not have the finances for that. Adoption is not a guarantee. 16% of children in foster care will commit suicide before the age of 18. 22% will end up spending at least one year in the penal system. You think its EASIER to raise a child? Then you are young and naive.
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  383.  @niceguy5501  No one has intrinsic value. You aren't valuable just because you're born. Abortion should be a last resort, which it is in most cases, and to deny a woman the right to abort when the fetus is a non sentient parasite is selfish. Also, Ben Shapiro is a brainwashed lunatic.
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  384.  @ethanm.2411  There is no such thing as objective moral facts because morality is subjective.
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  385.  @ethanm.2411  There is no established definition of what right and wrong are in a philosophical sense. Right and wrong only exists in a legal or societally ethical sense. The definition of objective morality is the belief that morality is universal, meaning that it isn't up for interpretation. But all I would have to do is find a society or culture that does not believe child torture is wrong or has a different definition of the word torture. Is child sacrifice wrong? Our culture says yes, but others say no. Things are only moral in each individuals circumstances. For instance: You might consider stealing to be immoral in all circumstances, but I think a mother who steals from a grocery store to feed her children is not immoral. Therefore, the idea that stealing is wrong is not universal and is not objective.
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  386.  @Itsalexandraelizabeth  Then you aren't pro-life. You're just a hypocrite that decides one life is somehow less valuable.
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  387. @TheBookWorm1718 Why is it so hard for people to comprehend that a fetus can't care if it's aborted or not, unless of course, you try and get a late term one?
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  388.  @codnoob1152  One, its not murder. And two, so what if it's developing? Why are humans on such a pedestal? Why aren't you against ALL killing? You don't care how cows and pigs are slaughtered. You don't care about the spiders or flies you kill. Let me make this clear. I want to see an end to abortion one day. But outlawing is not the way to do it.
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  389.  @ethanm.2411  Sure. But that only matters if you consider life inherently valuable.
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  390.  @ethanm.2411  I said INHERENT value. Not value in a broad context. Sorry, but life is only as valuable as one makes it.
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  391.  @ethanm.2411  lts not a refutation. We don't have the same belief of how valuable human life is. No, its actually you who needs to substantiate that life actually is inherently valuable. Because value only applies to those who can define it.
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  392.  @ethanm.2411  I only know my morality, and I make decisions and judgement based off of that. You have claimed life has inherent value. And you can't prove a negative. If life wasn't inherently valuable to you, you wouldn't have the position you do.
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  393.  @ethanm.2411  Depends on your personal opinion. Since what they did goes against my moral compass, then what they did was wrong in my eyes. This is not the first conversation we've had about this. You can't prove a negative. Your examples aren't negatives. I have no problem with you and I disagreeing. But the word inherent means essential or permanent. Neither of those things apply to value. Something is only valuable if one gives it value. You don't have value just by existing.
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  394.  @ethanm.2411  I can't give you an objective answer to that, because the answer isn't objective. They were stopped because people as a collective felt what they were doing was wrong. So they put an end to it. Just because the word "can't" is there doesn't make it a negative. Your statement "there can't be married bachelors" is still a positive claim. Not a negative one. No, not really. We as a collective have placed value on things. It doesn't have to be inherent to matter.
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  395. @Rick Walgreen Yes there are. You can say no to sex, fight for custody of the child, or terminate your rights.
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  396.  @blaecccuebbler7711  I was clearly speaking about after birth. You don't have any right to my uterus as much as I don't get a say in whether or not you get a vasectomy.
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  397. @Rick Walgreen I am a woman who thinks everyone deserves equal rights, regardless of sex or gender. I'm still waiting for you to tell me what right I have that you do not. I am genuinely interested.
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  398.  @rinkerd3575  In the west, I have all the rights you do. I can vote, drive, wear what I want. The wage gap isn't nearly what people make it out to be. I feel pretty equal. Also, what video? There is no comment.
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  399.  @rinkerd3575  A man has no say over a woman's body. Period. He is not the one who's rights are infringed.
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  400. So is forced birth.
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  401. Because it is not his body. Its that simple. No person has the right to another's body.
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  402.  Lizzie Allen  Because it violated the rights over another sentient human being, which a fetus is not.
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  403. Biology and psychology do not always work that way.
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  404. No one murders a child in an abortion. Your inflammatory language isn't accurate.
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  405.  @kickzeez22.  I don't find life inherently valuable period. And no. You completely misunderstood my position. By quality of life, I meant the love and help they get from their parents. You can have low income or be disabled and still have a quality of life, just one that is harder than more privileged people. I'm talking about children who have no quality of life because their parents do not love them. Do not want them. Abuse and neglect them. This is what statistically happens when you force a woman who does not want or feels they cannot care for, a child. I find it offensive that you find a life full of pain and suffering better than never being born. You aren't entitled to anything, not even life. And the woman is also entitled to her liberty.
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  406. Except then you give a fetus rights it does not have. A fetuses rights do not exceed that of the mother. All rights are equal. The undeveloped non-sentient fetus has NO RIGHT to the womb of the host mother.
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  407.  @briancoon641  No one has a God given right to life, as God has never been proven to exist. You have a "right to life" because of the government. That fetus's "right to life" does not superceed the woman's "right to autonomy". Once again, you are giving a fetus rights it does not have.
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  408. Yeah, accept thats not a choice you have. And these things aren't related.
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  409. Minty Bear Yes it is potentially my future child. Its not an argument of life. It's an argument of sentience. And no. Again, by definition, murder is UNLAWFUL which abortion is not.
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  410. Minty Bear if life matters, should we outlaw the death penalty? Should we outlaw the consumption of meat? I could make an argument that a criminal and a pigs life matter as well. I'm not arguing that it isn't alive. I'm arguing it isn't sentient. If it's immoral to kill because it's inconvenient, then I suppose a family should now longer have the option of taking a comatose person off of life support. They're still living.
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  411. Of course it is. But its not always an option.
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  412.  @katie323  Uhh no it isnt. It's not available everywhere, children have be turned away, and it's not always free.
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  413.  @Niko_Bellic4  Your comparison doesn't work however. Because it works the same. If a person is on life support and needs it, its the next of kins right to take the person off life support, just as its the woman's right to terminate a pregnancy before sentience. Your second issue is unrealistic. There is no way for a doctor to know someone who's on life supports prognosis months in advance. But even if they could, not only would it still not be objectively wrong to take them off, it would still be the legal next of kins decision.
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  414. Alura Fletch The majority of women do not do that.
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  415. Alura Fletch No, they really don't. In fact, I don't know any women who does. Sure, they exist. But they are certainly the minority. Everyone should be allowed to make that choice, though I think all options should be carefully considered first.
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  416. Abortion will never be murder. Why not pull your head out of your ass and even consider why abortions take place? Why not value quality of life over life itself?
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  417. And once again, we have an example of someone who knows absolutely nothing about planned Parenthood. Abortion isn' their only MO honey.
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  418.  @thefourthtuxzt3078  So what if I had been aborted? What is your argument? I was a failed abortion, and wish every day that I had been, even though I have been successful in life.
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  419.  @tyronestone3388  Uhh no. Murder also includes the word "unlawful". Try reading the entire definition. I never said it can't be killed. But it does not feel pain, as it lacks sentience. Are you entirely vegan? Ever stepped on a spider or a roach? Quit pretending you care about life. Life doesn't matter. Sentience does.
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  420.  @charliegranberry2594  The fetus is property. It is chattle. I never once insinuated that life is easy. And as far as sucide, I absolutely think people should get help. But I also think people should have a right to die if they want. Life doesn't have inherent value, and I will never believe death is worse than suffering.
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  421.  @charliegranberry2594  They are humans. They are not human beings. Being is defined by personhood, which a fetus does not have until after sentience. Legally, they are chattle. Whether or not they should be is a different matter altogether. Yes, I most certainly can. Believe it or not, there are some situations that one just cannot get out of. I always think suicide should be a line no one crosses. But if you have a right to live, you also have the right to die. You are so privileged if you actually believe that quailty of life is not a determinate factor on how one values themselves. If you really think this viewpoint drives people to suicide, you've never been affected by it. I've attempted numerous times to take my life, because my unfit mother ruined any shot I had at living a normal life. My viewpoint is valid. Its just different from yours.
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  422. christopher Scott Because murder by definition is UNLAWFUL, which abortion is not.
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  423.  @aubreyprice9933  Because birth control can't easily be obtained, cannot be taken by everyone, and fails. What then?
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  424.  @aubreyprice9933  Because having sex is how many people relieve stress. Its their heroine.
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  425.  @blaecccuebbler7711  And some may find that uncomfortable. So guess what? Its none of your business. If they want to takw that risk, then the choices they make will be up to them. You will never overturn abortion.
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  426.  @blaecccuebbler7711  Quit acting righteous when what you are really trying to do is elevate life to a status above liberty when they are all equal. You do not have the right to live at the cost of someone else's liberty. Period.
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  427.  @aubreyprice9933  I wish it had happened to me, because I wasn't lucky enough to grow up with loving parents. I now have permanent disabilities because of the damage done to me, and will never live a "normal" life. You cannot miss what you never had. Had any of us been aborted, we would not have cared. You say that because you were priviledged enough to have parents who loved and cared about you. So I don't expect you to understand.
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  428.  @aubreyprice9933  And thats fine. I meerly like having discussions
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  429.  @blaecccuebbler7711  I have answered all of your comments. Go up and read them.
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  430.  @blaecccuebbler7711  That wasn't what I meant. I meant people with your same viewpoint are one of the major reasons I had a terrible life. I understand your position, even though I disagree. But you don't understand mine. Because for every few thousand who are lucky enough to make it out okay of bad situations, there are thousands more who don't. And it seems that these people don't matter.
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  431. Facts don't care about your feelings. Its not. Thats not an opinion.
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  432.  @EHowdy97  I attacked the idea of being pro-life, not a person. I've also seen pro-lifers call pro-choicers murderers and say they should get the death penalty. Neither of those ways of thinking are correct. If you believe my disdain for a view you hold means attacks you as a person, that it your problem.
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  433.  @EHowdy97  I'm sorry if you perceive it that way. But that's your problem. I take issue with someone else telling a person what they can and cannot do with their bodies. I take issue with people refusing to even acknowledge where I am coming from. I take issue with people deliberately speeading lies and misinformation because it fits their views and narratives. That doesn't mean I think of them as any less of a person. No, I'm not being as bad as the people who are telling me I should be killed for my support of autonomy.
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  434.  @EHowdy97  I'm not triggered for having a differing opinion. People can think whatever they want. I have a problem with people trying to use their thoughts to change the law for others who do not share that viewpoint. That is not hypocritical. You have a different opinion? Fine. But do not call me something I'm not, or I will make a reply.
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  435. No one murders a baby. A) Its not murder. Murder is a legal term. B) Baby, both scientifically and medically, applies only post utero. That's not to say it isn't alive, not human, and cut off dates should not exist. You should have a right to your own bodily autonomy. No one should get to use you without your consent. Period.
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  436. You know why we get angry? Because we get classed on the same level as baby killers when it is not the same by hypocritical morons.
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  437. What planet do you live on that your pronounced dead when your heart stops? You know what a defibulator is for? You are pronounced dead when your brainstem ceases to function. Your heart can be restarted so long as your brainstem is functioning.
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  438.  @asdadishere  Then you misunderstand the argument. No one has an inherent right to anything. You only have rights because a government says you do. I believe that if everyone was capable of taking care of a child in any circumstance, no one would support abortion. But that is simply not reality. Sexual intercourse is more than just procreation. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. Abortion is just as responsible a decision as any other choice that pro-life offers. Rape is not used to justify other abortions. But it is hypocritical to say that a woman deserves to abort a fetus if conceived through rape than any other reason. A fetus doesn't change just because its conceived through rape.
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  439.  @andrewthomas365  There is no truth to your God claim. However, if that evidence ever surfaces, I will believe.
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  440.  @andrewthomas365  Just because I'm an atheist does not mean I believe everything came from nothing. I don't.
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  441.  @chungs6496  Yes, that is indeed what happens.
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  442. @Humanity Galatica Your morality is subjective to the time and culture you live in. Religion can impact it positively or negatively.
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  443. Nope, and then they can simply walk away and say, I'm not taking care of this thing because I lack the ability to, and we'll have more child deaths than ever. Sounds lovely.
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  444.  @travisjohnson7065  Make that argument when a fetus no longer needs to use anothers organ for survival and you may have a case.
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  445.  @christianjilwan8817  It has nothing to do with a state of dependance, and still isn't a rational argument because you can still remove a comatose person off of life support. The issue is the route of dependance. A person on a feeding tube does not depend on another person's ORGAN for survival. It does not violate the rights of a sentient being for that dependance. That is the issue. No, my rationale has nothing to do with morality. I could entirely grant you that abortion is "immoral" or "evil". I argue abortion from a legal perspective, not a moral one. I don't believe anything, human or otherwise, has inherent value. I don't care that its human. It means nothing. It isn't sentient, and I believe that takes precedent over its species.
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  446.  @halosainswavvy9202  Perhaps, but to claim thats a reason not to abort is a terrible argument.
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  447.  @blaecccuebbler7711  Which is why I don't think its a strong argument to use when discussing abortion. But thats just me.
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  448. @TheBookWorm1718 You're kidding right? Mental anxiety, sickness from pregnancy and neo natal care are all steps taken during pregnancy.
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  449.  @LOWERCASEJOKE  You don't, though its kind of expected in a reply, especially when you're being dishonest. And there was no reason to bring up my pfp, except to take a cheap shot because you disagree. You're not fooling anyone.
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  450. Austin Chamberlain It isn't scientifically inaccurate. A fetus is not a baby at the time of most abortions. It is a parasitic group of cells that relys on a mother to develop into a baby.
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  451.  @keer-stin  Because it doesn't make sense. 2/2 men having normal intercourse cannot procreate. Men do not need to take contraceptives, because they cannot get pregnant. I do not understand how you think a partner taking a contraceptive will prevent you from getting pregnant. Contraceptives prevent the person taking them from getting pregnant.
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  452. I remember when everyone actually was samrt to enough to understand what the definition of murder was.
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  453.  @ethanm.2411  Because the fetus has no rights and even if it did those rights would not exceed those of its mother. You're acting like pro-choice only supports abortion.
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  454. Let me close this out. You don't know what words mean.
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  455. "If you don't interrupt it, that life will be born" Yes. Lets pretend that miscarriages don't happen, even though they're more frequent than actual births.
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  456. Waits Sharpe Evil is a subjective opinion. I would argue it's evil to dictate what a woman can and can't do with her body.
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  457.  @blaecccuebbler7711  Not really. A human is a human deserving of life right? By the way, most people against abortion are pro capital punishment, as they are conservatives.
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  458.  @blaecccuebbler7711  I support abortion because I believe Liberty is just as important as Life, and have seen the damage done to children and parents when an unfit mother is forced into giving birth. I was one of those children. I know that. I just don't know a single conservative that doesn't. Just my own personal anecdote. We're not talking about your country. We're talking about the US. If you oppose abortion, you are not a liberal. You may be on the left or lean left, but you're not liberal. There isn't. The difference between you and I is simple. I base mine on sentience and personhood. You base yours on life and the fact that its human.
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  459. Then you shouldn't be allowed a license if you've ever been in an accident that was your fault, no matter how small.
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  460. BossTech Alright. I'm a pro-choice atheist. Stop and consider why women get abortions. If the subject is about killing, you'd be a hypocrite if you weren't a vegan or if you ever killed a spider. Why is human sentience any different than animal sentience? That's the key here. Sentience. I'm pro-choice because I know that some mother's accept that they are unfit. I would rather see a non-senient fetus be aborted than see a child who is sentient be abused and neglected because the mother was forced to have it. Adoption systems are fundamentally broken. Until they are fixed, the thought of outlawing abortion is unthinkable. In my opinion, it isn't about life. It's about sentience.
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  461. It is. But that isn't the issue.
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  462. Reagan Butrum You don't know what the definition of murder is. You know what you would do if you banned abortions? You'd skyrocket deaths in mother's and fetuses, you'd overcrowd the foster care system even more, and you'd increase child abuse and child death rates.
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  463. The religious aspect is a terrible argument. The Bible is very much Pro-choice. And "in your eyes" doesn't matter. Facts do not care about your feelings. Abortion is not murder. Murder is a legal term.
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  464. Because you have a right to bodily autonomy. And its sick and disgusting that people would try to take that away from people.
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  465. You are right. If my mothers abortion hadn't failed, I wouldn't have the decision. Nor would I care. Because I would have been physically incapable of caring. You arent born with value. The unique life you live and experiences that are your own is what makes your life valuable. That's not something you're born with. Congrats. You can adequately care for a child. Some people cannot, and to put the children through the torment they go through when they are sentient, instead of ending it when they aren't, is deplorable. Don't get me wrong. I want to see an end to abortion one day. You have to be realistic.
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  466. You...don't pay for abortions? That's against the federal law. The Hyde Amendment specifically.
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  467. leeuniverse Entirely independant? Uh no. That fetus is a parasite on the mother and REQUIRES her for life at the time of most abortions. It's not it's own body. It's DNA is half its mother's, and until it develops the circulatory system, which granted develops early, it has its MOTHER'S blood. No, you aren't murdering anything. You are making a decision based on the quality of life as opposed to whether it just exists. That's a hard choice. Maybe try to look at it from another perspective.
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  468. You have clearly had a privileged life...
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  469. The number is grossly over exaggerated. Its closer to 37 million. And its fetuses, not babies.
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  470.  @ryleejaakkola3352  A fetus is any unborn mammal. It is not solely specific to humans. No, I don't think a fetus is just a "lump of tissue". But it also isn't a sentient human being at the tome most abortions are performed. Also, "sin" only exists to religious people. I think its wrong to knowingly birth a child who will not get the proper care it needs because the mother is ill-equipped.
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  471.  @ryleejaakkola3352  I am well aware that anything growing in living. So what? You a vegan? Ever stepped on a bug? Then you've killed "life". Humans are not on a pedestal. Sex is not just for procreation. You'd be surprised how many mothers who abort wanted to keep the baby until the father walked out and their family refused to support them.
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  472. @Humanity Galatica No one person will ever agree on what is collectively good for humanity. Its not good to destroy the individual for a collective, especially when the collective is full enough as is. If you really want to stop abortion, lets treat the causes of why people get abortions. Maybe then we can see an end to it. But stripping away individual rights is not the moral thing to do.
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  473. Post Malone Did you know you also have to be against assisted euthanasia to be pro life? A lot of people are for that. Making a difference in the world is not an argument. In fact, I could rationalize based on that that having an abortion is good because it prevents people from giving birth to people like Richard Rameriz or Jeffery Dahmer. Sounds stupid huh? Did you ever think that there is no such thing as safe sex? Condoms and birth control fail, and some people can't use either. It's not murder, as it does not fit the definiton of murder. Life is precious, so advocate for helping women financially and emotionally so they don't turn to abortion, instead of outlawing it.
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  474. Post Malone Perhaps they are ending the lives to prevent themselves from neglecting and abusing a child they can't handle. It's not murder, and it never will be. I'm sorry you can't understand why abortions happen.
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  475. Post Malone It's not a baby. It's a fetus. Ever think maybe you're also helping that fetus? Talk to the kids who go everyday saying "I wish I would have been aborted."
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  476. Yeah...except its not. You don't get to change the definitions of words because you don't like something. So what if the fetus is human? Humans don't have inherent value. Oh, also. You're not pro-life if you allow for abortions in rape. That's still pro-choice. And congrats on assuming everyone would WANT to be born, if given the choice. Your privilege is showing...
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  477.  @randomperson529  Yeah, actually you did. Because your calling abortion murder. Which its not. Nice to know you would watch a young girl be forced to give birth and suffer physically and mentally. You are actually an awful person.
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  478.  @randomperson529  Because abortion doesn not fit the definition of murder. Murder is a legal term. And yes. Lets pretend that everyone who gets pregnant willingly opens their legs, wasn't on birth control, or can even take birth control in the first place. Not being perfect doesn't make you horrible. Fighting against the right of choice over ones body makes you horrible. Also, you can be anti-abortion and be pro-choice.
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  479.  @randomperson529  No, its not murder. Murder is strictly a LEGAL term. It has to be against the law by definition to be murder. Is it KILLING? Yes. But killing does not equate to murder in all circumstances. You know what a non-medical term is for a miscarriage? A self-abortion. A fetus being alive harms the mother. Thats why neonatal care is so important. Abortion is horrible, sure. But its also a lesser of two evils.
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  480.  @randomperson529  Thats fine, but that doesn't make it murder. Sex is not just about reproduction.
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  481.  @randomperson529  And thats why we have abortion. Because thats a violation of women's rights.
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  482. How funny. I don't see pro-lifers adopting either. And they're the ones who want to force children on unfit parents.
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  483.  @kylawiseman3653  In fairness, its not murder because murder has an established definition, to which abortion does not fit under.
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  484.  @wifeu6966  Sure, but this ia referring to the United States. Also, no. Because neither the Supreme Court nor the Constitution consider a fetus a person. Because its not.
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  485.  M  No, it still is hypocritical. They took part in a practice they do not support. Thats still hypocrisy.
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  486.  M  Participation regardless of when it happened still makes it hypocritical.
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  487.  @travisjohnson7065  No, you're right. Killing a child isn't a right. Terminating a fetus, however, is a right. As is the right to decide when you die. So no, pro-life is anti-rights. Specifically, the right to liberty.
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  488.  @travisjohnson7065  Which is fine, except that would be a category error. A fetus is not a child. "Baby" and "child" medically and scientifically only apply post utero. Colloquially, yes it would be a child.
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  489.  @travisjohnson7065  Nope, the term fetus is indicating age. And even granting full personhood, no one has the right to live off of another.
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  490.  @travisjohnson7065  A child post utero does not live off of someone to survive the way a fetus does. Again, your making a category error and trying to use technicalities incorrectly to justify your position. Being self sufficient is not the same as parasitizing someone. Relying on someone is not the same as physically living off of someone else, literally ceasing to exist if something happens to them. To compare the two is dishonest.
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  491.  @travisjohnson7065  You're just being intellectually dishonest to justify your position. A child post utero and a fetus' dependency are not the same. Whether or not they deserve to live is subjective and, frankly, irrelevant. You do not have the right to live at the expense of someone else's rights.
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  492. Your taxpayer money that goes to planned parenthood isn't just for abortion. Not only that, you taxpayer money doesn't even fund abortion unless a woman pays for it using Medicaid, which a majority don't. I have to pay for the people who are on death row. That's not fair to me either. Life isn't fair.
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  493. Every mother also has the right to bodily autonomy and consent. Try seeing what the system in America is like for adoption. Its broken as hell.
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  494.  @fMONA94  Very rarely to people have abortions because a child is inconvenient. Abortion is inconvenient. Its a life altering procedure mentally, has to be paid out of pocket, and often comes with social consequences.
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  495.  @fMONA94  Adoption is broken, isn't free everywhere and also isn't available at times. I've seen women turned down and told to go elsewhere, even encouragr private adoption, because there is no room.
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  496. How is wanting a choice over what happens to someone's body confusing?
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  497. Forcing a woman who is not prepared for a child thus damning the child to a life of suffering is also a wrong choice.
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  498. Funny, considering the Bible is very much pro-choice.
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  499.  @zigzag6728  Sure. Here you go. pregnant woman who is injured and aborts the fetus warrants financial compensation only (to her husband), suggesting that the fetus is property, not a person (Exodus 21:22-25). • The gruesome priestly purity test to which a wife accused of adultery must submit will cause her to abort the fetus if she is guilty, indicating that the fetus does not possess a right to life (Numbers 5:11-31). • God enumerated his punishments for disobedience, including "cursed shall be the fruit of your womb" and "you will eat the fruit of your womb," directly contradicting sanctity-of-life claims (Deuteronomy 28:18,53). • Elisha's prophecy for soon-to-be King Hazael said he would attack the Israelites, burn their cities, crush the heads of their babies and rip open their pregnant women (2 Kings 8:12). • King Menahem of Israel destroyed Tiphsah (also called Tappuah) and the surrounding towns, killing all residents and ripping open pregnant women with the sword (2 Kings 15:16). • Isaiah prophesied doom for Babylon, including the murder of unborn children: "They will have no pity on the fruit of the womb" (Isaiah 13:18). • For worshiping idols, God declared that not one of his people would live, not a man, woman or child (not even babies in arms), again confuting assertions about the sanctity of life (Jeremiah 44:7-8). • God will punish the Israelites by destroying their unborn children, who will die at birth, or perish in the womb, or never even be conceived (Hosea 9:10-16). • For rebelling against God, Samaria's people will be killed, their babies will be dashed to death against the ground, and their pregnant women will be ripped open with a sword (Hosea 13:16). • Jesus did not express any special concern for unborn children during the anticipated end times: "Woe to pregnant women and those who are nursing" (Matthew 24:19). By the way, apparently murder is fine when God says it is. Seems like God has a problem staying consistent.
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  500. A non sentient fetus cannot have a choice as it doesn't comprehend what choice is. No, I know they don't all want to live. Condoms break. Pills fail. And some people cant even use contraception
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  501. I was a failed abortion and I wish the same as her. My life has been absolutely miserable, and to say we should be happy just because we're alive is just ridiculous. Some people truly hate their lives. We are entitled to the choice of what to do with our bodies before sentience. Humans do not care about life.
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  502.  @AMC2283  I'm aware. I was commenting on the OP.
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  503.  @0786RICARDO  Depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain. The way a person who has depression feels is subjective. Its not a grey subject. You either have bodily autonomy or you don't.
    2
  504.  @0786RICARDO  That is Jorden Peterson levels of word salad.
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  505.  @travisjohnson7065  Legally, the unborn do not have a right to life. And even if it did, no one's rights supercede someone else's.
    2
  506.  @travisjohnson7065  As I've argued with you before, morality is subjective. Slavery cannot be compared to abortion. That is a strawman. It is about rights superseding rights. Because to outlaw abortion would put the right to life the fetus possessed over the right of liberty that the mother possesses. That is wrong, in my opinion.
    2
  507.  @travisjohnson7065  It is subjective. And it isn't wrong. The majority of people do not regret their abortion. You're just simply wrong, no matter how you want to be right. It is liberty. No one has the right to anothers organ. It is not my fault that a fetus cannot live outside of my uterus. Just because objective morality doesn't exist does not mean we can't apply subjective morality to an objective framework. I don't think morality is subjective. It is. Nothing objectively tells you killing is wrong.
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  508. She doesn't inflict pain on anyone but maybe herself. And thats her right to do.
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  509. Antonio All fetuses are potentially leathal to the mother. Apparently someone lacks understanding of what the word murder means.
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  510. Antonio I'm not mad. It's fine to have a differing opinion. But you calling an abortion murder is objectively wrong, at least in the United States.
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  511. No one is dehumanizing fetuses. But they aren't babies. That's not medically accurate. I know their human. But in most abortions, they are not sentient. Except she implied that ALL women feel trauma, when not even MOST women feel trauma. Less than 30% had any severe changes in mental health exceeding the first 6 months to the point that it was diagnosable.
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  512.  @blaecccuebbler7711  It does if that thing is a violation of their rights. UNCONSCIOUS IS STILL SENTIENT. By the way, the "less than 30%" is a rough estimate. Its closer to 17%. And those experinces are not everyone, and should not doctate everyone.
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  513.  @blaecccuebbler7711  You are sentient regardless of your state of consciousness unless you're brain dead. Less than 30 is the estimate. 17 is the closest figure based on data gathered. Do you not understand how estimates work? I like to use the general estimate to give less margin for error, since data may be skewed or unreported. Some studies show higher. Some show lower. Thats why we average.
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  514.  Tim Account  Tamar: Killing an Undesirable Pregnancy: Genesis 38 Hosea: Progeny of the Rebellious Shall Not be Born: Hosea 9:14, Hosea 13:16 Ripping unborn from the womb 2 Kings: 8:12, 15:16 Sotah: Abortion-Inducing Potion due to Husband’s Jealousy: Numbers 5 Causing a Miscarriage: Mere Property Loss: Exodus 21: 22-25 The Bible is certainly not anti-abortion.
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  515.  @parthenon5106  Yes my body, yes my choice. Until the fetus is sentient.
    2
  516. Damian Lupe Cahue The problem is most people are pro life solely based on religion. It's extremely difficult to remove the religious aspect.
    2
  517. Being pro-birth and against the right to bodily autonomy doesn't make you a moral person.
    2
  518.  @blaecccuebbler7711  Liking your own comments won't get you anywhere, but that fetus doesn't have rights. Strawmanning the argument won't help you. Rights are held by sentient individuals.
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  519. Not having sex does not work. Human beings naturally want to have sex. Sex isnt just for procreation. Just because you say it isn't right doesn't mean it isn't. See how easy that around? That fetuses developing body is ATTACHED to its mother and is STEALING the nutrients it needs to develop. It's a parasite that does NOTHING beneficial for the mother. So until it becomes sentient and biologically independent from her, it is her body. You don't have to feel bad. What's sad is you don't feel bad for children in foster care and adoption centers that may never be adopted, or children who have died at the hands of parents from abuse and neglect because mommy couldn't care for me.
    2
  520. Why? Because her opinion is different from yours?
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  521. 1. That's called a "no true scotsman" fallacy. Catholics are Christians. They are, in fact, the largest denomination of Christianity. If you're trying to make the point that you must be pro-life to be a Christian, you're mistaken. Your Bible is NOT pro-life, making many references to abortions being okay. And it doesn't matter what reason it is, even if that percentage was accurate. Its a woman's bodily autonomy.
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  522.  @raycohollis9417  Even if that were true, that doesn't make them non-Christian. You could worship Satan and be a Christian. To argue against the definition of Christianity is just fallacious. I get it. Your protestant. You don't have to believe anything in the Bible other than Jesus being a messiah. Thats all it takes to be a Christian.
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  523.  @mathildeyoung1823  Mmm...nope. You don't have a right to anything. Quit being entitled. Your rights only exist because the government says they do. Leave other people alone and treat people how you'd like to be treated. It's none of your business.
    2
  524.  @mathildeyoung1823  I dont think anything has a natural right. Call that pessimistic, but that is reality. I think if you have the means to care for the child, you have loved ones or friends who can help you, or you can put it up for adoption, you should. If you can't, you should not be demonized for having an abortion. That is my opinion.
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  525. The reason its painful is because no one wants to ever make that decision. No one enjoys making the choice to have an abortion. But sometimes we must. And its within our right. Hopefully one day, that choice won't have to be made.
    2
  526. Neither does a choice of life.
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  527.  @zahrapirani6622  Neither was making the world a better place by choosing to abort. It certainly is something to think about however.
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  528. Min Y Yeah, most would. Because they cared about the life their child would have instead of whether it was born or not. You could try your hardest and still not be able to properly care for yourself and a child. That's what eventually breaks down into abuse and neglect.
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  529.  Tim Account  The difference is sentience.
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  530. Tamang Tman And what happens when the adoption system turns them away? See, if you reformed the adoptions so that they weren't broken, I'd support you. But thyre broken to shit. I understand why women have abortions. You people think Its because she doesn't want it. That's not true
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  531. Aries 90 Because they care more about the quality of life they can give their child. Listen, I've known women who have had abortions. Not one of them wishes they couldn't have kept their child. Hell, I even took on my friends two children because while she got help. I do believe in precautions. I do believe in being safe. I do believe into looking into every major option before considering an abortion. But when everything else failed, those women realized that if they couldn't care for themselves, how could they care for a child? If you focused your energy on treating the root causes of why women have abortions: lack of access to birth control, counseling for men so they don't walk out, financial help, mental illness, help for foster homes and adoption agencies and getting treatment for addiction instead of just going to jail; I think you would see abortion rates decline. Treating the symptoms and not the problem will never end abortion.
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  532. Aries 90 No problem. See? I'm not a psycho who just wants to see unborns die lol. I hope to one day live in a world where abortion no longer happens.
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  533. "I believe taking away a life is bad". Says the person who follows a religion who's book literally tells you to kill people who dont believe in God.
    2
  534.  @alanadelarosa1868  I can't tell if you're sarcastic or just psychotic.
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  535. The Whale Bear Humans are animals you dingbat. That still doesn't make it murder. Your own definition stated "UNLAWFUL" which abortion is not. Check your definitons
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  536. God has never been proven to exist. And it is my choice, as it is my body the fetus is using to grow and develop.
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  537. Bruce Williamson Kinda hard to make a conscious choice without a functioning brain.
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  538. Maybe because people have actually lived it? You should have a right to die as much as you have a right to live. There are plenty of things worse than death, but you wouldn't understand if you've never been through it. Many people out there would choose death over a miserable and painful existence.
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  539. 2 reasons. 1, because pro-life doesn't just refer to abortions. Being pro-life also means your against assisted suicide, which I think is pretty shitty to deny someone a right to die. 2. Because a fetus is not sentient and the mother is. Her needs come first. That fetus doesn't care, so why do you? You cannot miss something you never had, and there are worse things than death.
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  540.  @Cryax2  Assisted suicide is part of being pro-life or pro-choice. You are against assisted suicide by definition if you are pro-life. So here's a fun fact. I'm a failed abortion. My mother tried to abort me. And despite my accomplishments in life, I absolutely would not have cared if I was aborted or not. Then again, I do not speak for everyone. There are people in this world who suffer because their mothers were guilted into having them. Raised in a cycle of abuse and neglect. They have no future now. Because of people like you. And frankly, I find that disgusting. Abortion should be a last resort. But the choice should be there. Because it is vile to only care that a child is born, and not about what type of life it will have.
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  541. No. But not mostly for moral reasons. I'm against capital punishment for the same reason I'm pro choice. Practicality. Also, theres a difference between a fetus (when it isnt sentient) and a convict (who is sentient)
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  542.  @AnirudhPoranki  Not nearly as low as you are led to believe. 3 women I personally work with for pregnant on birth control. And that's not taking into account people, like myself, who cannot use birth control. I don't base the legality of abortions on failure of birth control. I base it based on what happens statistically to children in abusive homes
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  543. Lana Wana Humans have sex and birth control is not always available, viable or doesn't work. You're basically saying I have no right over what happens in my body. Good thing that is not your decision to make It's not about life. It's about sentience. If life plays a role, you better be a vegan.
    2
  544. Well I mean...lets not pretend the Bible and the History of Christianity is not filled with death.
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  545.  @jianalinksydo1542  Eternal damnation is the right thing to do? That's sick and twisted.
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  546. As an abortion survivor, I am entirely pro-choice. My mother tried to abort me, and it failed. I grew up miserable. By the way, try finding a doctor who will give you a hysterectomy when you're young. You won't, because they'll rarely do it for non medical reasons. PS: Don't be a hypocrite. Stable women make up a small sliver of abortions. Most abortions are young emotionally, financially or physically unstable women who have no one to help them.
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  547. RightWingKing Morality is subjective. The fetus is incapable of feeling or caring until a certain point. Most, if not none, decide to just get an abortion.
    2
  548. People always forgetting that some of those women were failed abortions or grew up without parents who loved them and know the struggles. Life is a privilege. Everything is a privilege. You have no natural rights. Why don't you people care about the children after they're born?
    2
  549.  @parthenon5106  Because he wouldn't be pro-life if he did. He could argue that, but I could easily debunk him.
    2
  550.  @parthenon5106  Because he doesn't or, once again, he wouldn't be pro-life. That's an accurate inference. The same people who are pro-life don't want their taxes to go into healthcare, education or help for unfit mothers. You can be pro-choice and still think abortion is wrong in a general sense. Pro-choice doesn't eliminate the other options of motherhood, adoption, contraception or abstinence. Because if he cared about children after they were born, he would be willing to see the opposite side, which he clearly isn't. You people don't even begin to consider why abortion occurs. So no, I don't believe anyone who claims to be pro-life cares about children after birth, nor do I think they care about others rights.
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  551. Not at all. Congrats on not supporting people's right to die and right to autonomy.
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  552. Adoption may not be an option. There are 44,000 children waiting to be adopted every day.
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  553.  @blaecccuebbler7711  That is not the only purpose of sex. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. That's why abortions are available.
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  554. Yes you can. It's a procedure done after a woman takes the abortion pill. It's called an APR
    2
  555.  @clarakorfmacher7394  That is absoutely not true. While it's very rarely used, it has been confirmed. That being said, I'm pro choice and dont really care what people do with their own lives as long as their not harming a sentient human
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  556.  @clarakorfmacher7394  You can google it as well, but it really doesn't matter. I dont care what people do when the fetus isnt sentient
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  557.  @clarakorfmacher7394  Its not incorrect bullshit. The reason I said I didn't care is because nothing I say or provide you will change your mind. The study is still up. Not only that, I'm a product of the ADR procedure. So I know on some level, it does work.
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  558. You aren't coming from a moral standpoint. You're coming from a religions one, since you clearly mentioned God. Go and try to find a doctor who will tie your tubes before your mid 30's unless you have medical problems. You won't find one.
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  559.  @xthunderstonex6873  It doesn't matter if its alive. Thats not the issue, and really shouldn't be the issue even morally. You have no problem with taking life.
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  560. I doubt I'll change your mind, but first off. A fetus is not a baby. Its not a baby medically or literally until after birth. Forcing children to undergo abuse and neglect from unfit parents and a broken state is also wrong.
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  561.  @herreramissions6283  My argument would be that the issue isn't taking human life. Humans aren't special and you certainly don't have an jssue taking life. So we're already have a problen because the argument is fundamentally different for us. By the way, at the time of most abortions, fetuses do not have their own heart or brsin.
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  562. I wonder how many pro-lifers understand how an abortion is done nowadays. I doubt it.
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  563.  Lizzie Allen  I doubt it, since you seem to still believe most abortions are performed surgically.
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  564.  Lizzie Allen  Depends on which studies you take as credible. Its illegal in my state to get a surgical abortion without a medical problem, but that certainly isn't country wide.
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  565.  Lizzie Allen  Then I suggest you do your own research and find what sources you find credible. Since over 80% of abortions are performed before the end of the first trimester, and rarely is surgical abortions performed 12 weeks.
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  566.  @9290SC  No its not.
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  567. You have a right to an abortion for any reason. By the way, try finding a doctor that will tie your tubes before the age of between 30 and 35. They won't barring medical reason. Tubal reversal is also a risky procedure and sometimes can't even be done.
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  568. Real pro-life people would be against abortion in any circumstance, as that is the definition for pro-life. However, most of them are hypocrites that would make exceptions.
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  569.  @RemoteApogee  if you're truly pro life, then yes. Abortions are out of the question period.
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  570. Mmmm no. Its not his bodily autonomy being used. Its not his rights in question. Men should absolutely have a voice and should express how they feel, but the woman should always have final say. (Barring transgender men who become pregnant of course)]
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  571. That is anecdotal evidence that is not true depending on who you ask.
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  572. It's never the first choice or highly encouraged. And despite your opinion, having an abortion is taking responsibility. Its realizing you are not mentally of physically capable of supporting a child.
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  573.  @bigmacwithoutcheese8851  probably because abortion isnt "baby killing?" Believe or not, we're one of the most well developed and richest nations for a reason.
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  574. Because words have two forms. Natural and colloquial. We use the colloquial term "baby" because that is what we identify it as. That doesn't mean we're right. Technically, it's a fetus until it's born.
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  575. Depends on if I knew the circumstances of my mother. For my life personally? Death by a long shot.
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  576. If you've never lived an abusive, disgusting unloved childhood by a parent who didn't want you, you wouldn't understand. Death is certainly not the worse thing. Especially when you can't know its happened.
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  577. What about it? Its her body. The fetus cannot use her uterus without consent.
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  578.  @peruperaoOo  The heart doesnt beat independently from the mother until it has a brainstem, your blood type is dependent on your parents and you may share the same blood type as a parent, and your DNA is half of each of your parents unless you have some mutation.
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  579. Justin Green Abortion doesn't kill a child. It terminates a fetus. And maybe one day you'll see it from a different perspective. When we treat the root causes for why people have abortions, only then will we truly end them
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  580. At least you are respectful about it and don't want to see pro-choice people locked up. Thank you.
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  581. PinkCookyDough Some people can't take birth control.
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  582. PinkCookyDough All forms are relatively the same chemicals used in them, all of which women like me can't take. That was my point.
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  583. Or you just need to read that Bible that supports killing children and abortion.
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  584. Ignoring your human nature doesn't work. Protection fails or doesnt work. No, a pro choice platform thinks a woman should have the right to choose to abort a fetus that she cannot care for, rather thanabuae and neglect it or throw it into the system. Your attitude would change real quick if you heard all the horror stories from kids now saying "I wish I had been aborted"
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  585.  Lizzie Allen  Why do you people continue to equate abortion to murder when you know thats not correct? Even when I grant you that abortion is killing (which it is) and wrong, its still not murder.
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  586.  Lizzie Allen   So you deliberately twist the definition of a word to suit your narrative and get a reaction out of people. Do you understand how dishonest that is? Murder has an established definition. Its a legal term. Not a moral one. Done for profit? Its someone's job. Not only that, its a piece of their job. You have to make a living. Convenience? How is abortion convenient? Not only are you demonized for it, it must be paid out of pocket. Insurance will not cover it. You know that isn't murder and you know that people who perform abortionists are nearly always OBGYN's. You're being entirely dishonest.
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  587. No. No I wouldn't take it. Especially knowing what my life would be.
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  588. The fetus is not sentient and is dependant on the mother for survival. It IS part of her body. If she dies, it dies. Adoption is not always a solution. It's not free to give a child up for adoption, nor will adoption centers take all children. You cannot raise a child if you cannot even take care of yourself. Some people have the physical and emotional means, but not the financial ones. Abstinence does. Not. Work. The body WANTS sex. It's a healthy natural thing to do. By all means, if you can stay abstinent do it. But that is not the majority of people. It doesn't make any less sense to abort a fetus for rape than because you can't take care of it.
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  589.  @bigmacwithoutcheese8851  You're the propagandist, not me. You're the one who lacks a basic understanding of biology, and doesn't care what kind of shitty situation the baby is born into, so long as its born. The termination of a pregnancy is not genocide, no matter how you try and spin it. If they were spoiled, they wouldn't need to abort. They would have the necessary provisions to raise a child. You don't think a woman who has an abortion suffers? You're delusional.
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  590. Good thing abortion isn't murder. And then they'd be grilled on why its okay to force a rape victim to carry that trauma, why a person with a medical condition should potentially face death, or why the dying shouldn't be allowed to go on their terms. "True" pro-lifers are actually pretty selfish and heartless.
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  591.  @meltheunicorn2243  Can I just chime in to say that only under special circumstances can you be charged with a double homicide? The woman has to be 20 weeks along or more. Otherwise, you eould be charged with unlawful termination of a pregnancy.
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  592. No, it isn't.
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  593.  xi jinping  No it isn't, not in the US.
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  594.  @ethanm.2411  No. No its not.
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  595.  @bigmacwithoutcheese8851  Oh here we go with you again. Yeah, okay. You keep believing that. I value quality of life over quantity. You couldn't give a damn what that child went through so long as it was born
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  596. By definition, pro-life is against abortion and euthanasia. Period. End of story. Most pro-lifers will claim exemption in cases of rape, incest, or the life of the mother (which technically makes them pro-choice). Pro-choice believe abortion and euthanasia should be left up to the individual to decide whether or not it is done.
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  597. Did you know that changing the definition of a word makes you dishonest? Also, did you know you can be pro-choice and anti-abortion?
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  598. Thats funny, considering if you're Christian, your God certainly is not against abortion. Your beliefs should not interfere with someone else's rights. Period. Thats what people demonize.
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  599. All of those things are not available to everyone, nor are they 100% effective. I'm sorry that happened to you, but your argument is so flawed. How many of those children could have grown up to be the next Jeffery Dahmer? The next school shooter? You see how that argument could easily be used against you? Someone else could care for that child. It doesn't mean they will.
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  600. Your tax dollars rarely go to fund abortions because of the Hyde Amendment. Federal law prohibits tax dollars from funding abortions. Your tax dollars only pay for abortions if the woman uses Medicaid, which uses tax dollars to reimburse the provider, just like a private insurance would. You're a moron who does not understand the law, nor what murder means.
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  601. Kyle Hankins So abusing and neglecting unwanted children is?
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  602. And any slight but if research will tell you that abortion is not murder and that the fetuses heart is not beating on its own. The mother is controlling that heartbeat until the brain develops
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  603. A fetus has no right to life, as it is not sentient. In fact, you have no natural rights. You only have rights because a governmental body says you do. And unborn human, until sentient, is incapable of having a choice. You aren't pro-choice, nor defending the constitution, if you want to dictate the lives of others.
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  604.  @aaayhvcvb3219  In order to be pro-life by definition, you must be against abortion in ALL circumstances. You don't get to change the definition of a term because it doesn't align with your view. You can BE pro-choice and be anti-abortion. Did you even know this?
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  605. zephan wood Probably because that fetus has no liberty or autonomy until it's developed enough to be sentient.
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  606. @Humanity Galatica She's right and wrong. "Child" could technically be correct if we are speaking from a coloquial position. But if we're speaking from biology and medicine, she isn't wrong. A fetus doesn't leave the embryonic stage until the 11th week of pregnancy. Which is after most abortions.
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  607. Because adoption is not always an option. Do you know how many people would RATHER have been aborted than go into foster care?
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  608. Destiny Melgar No, what you are is a person who didn't pass basic biology and would prefer to see a woman not be granted a right to her body. That fetus doesn't have a full body of it's own until the third trimester, well after the time limit for an abortion is up. Sex is human nature and some people can't use contraception. Also, adoption agencies have started turing away children because they lack funding and room. Maybe treat the root cause as to why a woman has an abortion, and then we can end it.
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  609.  @joeyblaze2509  It is human life. I don't deny that in the slightest. However, you will not be charged for a double homicide unless the woman is 5 months along or more. That is a federal law, not a state one. Whether the state chooses to charge you or not is up to the state.
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  610.  @andrewjollycody729  No, its not. And at least in the US, it never will be.
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  611. Protection doesnt always work and some people can't take it. Congrats. You were one of the lucky ones who were adopted. What about the millions of children who aren't? Do you have any idea what happens to someone if they aren't adopted? They dont get the luxuary of staying in the system forever. Being only pro choice in certain situations makes you a hypocrite. A fetus cannot do anything on it's own without sentience. Only then should abortion be off the table.
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  612.  @aventurandoconfredy  I don't care if its human or not. I care about the quality of life it will have.
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  613.  @aventurandoconfredy  Then I'm sorry you haven't been underprivileged enough to see how bad it can be. When you have a mother who cannot care for herself, financially emotionally or physically, how can you logically expect her to take care of a child? If you really don't believe that happens in the US, you are very sheltered.
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  614.  @aventurandoconfredy  Congrats. Your mother was able to provide for you by working her ass off. I commend her for that, but not everyone is in that situation. My mother was thrown out of her house because she got pregnant with me out of wedlock. My father up and left, leaving her with nothing. She couldn't find work and was unable to support me. While I am proud of how far I've come in life, my successes are not worth the pain I went though as a child. Adoption isn't available to everyone nor is it free. That being said, I believe adoption should certainly be looked into. But you have to understand, even if you disagree, that there are worse things than death. And sometimes, as someone who has lived it, it is better to have never lived at all than suffer.
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  615.  @kiwa17  I'm not saying my life doesn't matter now. I have a husband and a pair of twins. I had to abort my first fetus because of medical complications. And it sucked. But everything I have now took decades to achieve. And I have to realize that I will never be okay. I'll never be normal by society's standards. I just wish you understood that death is certainly not the worst thing. And sometimes...its the better alternative.
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  616.  @ashchong  Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy. So what? By the way, killing a pregnant woman is only considered a double homicide at the federal level if the woman is 5 months along or more. No, its not saying that. Quit strawmaning the argument
    2
  617.  @ashchong  A parasite is any organism that is detremental to the host by using its nutrients to grow and develop. Parasitic doesn't necessarily mean bad.
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  618.  @SydLane  But the fact that life begins at conception is not the argument of pro-choice advocates.
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  619.  @SydLane  Because some of them are uneducated and others define life in a practical sense instead of a literal one.
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  620.  @LuZ-rd5yl  Online classes are always fun. I pursed Forensic Pathology because I am that weird creepy kid.
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  621. No. If that's what you think, you are pro-choice. And despite what people will tell you, that isnt a bad thing. Most people who claim they are pro-life are actually pro-choice, because they make exceptions or believe in physician assisted suicide
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  622. Except the fetus isn't sentient and cannot make a choice. Therefore, you make the choice for yourself, since your body is being used.
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  623. Thats a strawman argument. Slave owners owned sentient beings that in no way interfered with their rights. A fetus is not sentient and needs to use another person for growth and development.
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  624.  @Racools  The Constitution holds the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. They are equal. One cannot conflict with another. A fetus does not have a right to my organ without my consent. Period. Just as I don't have a right to your organ, even if I need it to live. By the way, the story of the violinist is not a strawman argument. Its actually a very solid reason as to why abortion is allowed.
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  625. See how fast that would get you smacked to be honest.
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  626. Its a fetus. So what if its human? Abortion is not murder, as it does not fit the definition of murder. Apparently it is that difficult to understand.
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  627. Most abortions take place before a fetus gains any kind of sentience, usually between 6 and 9 weeks. Why does it have to be the mothers? Because shes the one having her nutrients leeched off and shes the one who deals with the complications. There are more children in adoption and foster homes than there are parents to adopt them. So stop. Adoption should always be considered before abortion, but it is NOT always possible. So in other words, your a hypocrite.
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  628. Except its not.
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  629.  @nihilist5820  You mean the part about God ripping unborn out of the Israelites and Samarian's and throwing them against the rocks.
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  630.  Lizzie Allen  Strawman argument. One victimizes someone and violates their rights. The other does not.
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  631. No. Pro-choice is giving the option for the dying and pregnant people to decide for themselves what happens to their bodies.
    2
  632.  @zigzag6728  Arguing doesn't change facts
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  633. Because its not pro-killing babies. Its pro allowing a potentially unfit parent to decide what is best for her and her child. You fuckers act like death is the worst thing in the world.
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  634.  @dccomicsnew5263  Its not murder. That's not an opinion.
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  635.  @dccomicsnew5263  No, its fact.
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  636.  @juanph3671  Because murder is a legal term. Technically, in other countries, it may fall under that definition. Which is really depressing. You've just created a strawman. Someone who is on life support (which I'm also not against pulling the plug on) is not using another person to survive. They are not infringing on another's rights
    2
  637.  Riastrad  Depends on who you ask. Some view all life as the same. Some view life on a hierarchy. I'm not a liberal, nor am I a serial killer. I simply understand that abortion is a constitutional right. And criminalizing it will not do anything.
    2
  638. Then perhaps stop to consider the actions that led them to make that decision.
    2
  639.  @jacobbracamonte8177  Mm-hm. Perhaps by understanding why most people choose to have an abortion, we can treat the root causes and hopefully someday end it. Taking away the choice is not the way to do that.
    2
  640.  @chungs6496  You're right, I didn't have a father. Not sure what that has to do with anything.
    2
  641. Australia Smith You a vegan and against the death penalty?
    2
  642. Then go through the process of adopting one. But they realize early on it's too much, and they back out. Time and time again.
    2
  643. You don't have to be promiscuous to get pregnant, and your entire argument is based around your belief that the vast majority of abortions occur because a woman chooses to sleep around. That's already false. Many women are committed to a partner who sleeps with them and then bails when finding out she's pregnant. What about those women? What about the large numbers of women who develop mental conditions during the pregnancy? Pro-life, by its very definition, is against abortion regardless of circumstances. Against abortion with rape, incest or medical problems. You cannot pick and choose people who get rights to their body and people who don't.
    2
  644. preciousloreen Why? Because everyone's view of morality is different? I suppose I can see why that would be scary.
    2
  645.  Lizzie Allen  Well yeah. That would be murder. Because that would be illegal at that point. Because it is a sentient person. Yeah, you keep thinking that. Maybe we should force organ donation too. After all, life is more important right?
    2
  646.  @parthenon5106  No, she's still a hypocrite. Because she is making the assumption that everyone will have the reaction she did. Changing your mind in a topic doesn't prevent hypocrisy. You had the right to an abortion. Telling others they shouldn't is hypocritical.
    2
  647.  @travisjohnson7065  You do realize that the reason we take issue with being called pro-abortion is because that's an implicated term, right? It implies that evee pregnancy should be aborted. And you can be anti-abortion and pro-choice. This conversation gets tiresome when you are so uneducated about the other side of the argument.
    2
  648. No, pro-choice is allowing someone the choice to stop the development of a non-sentient fetus in most cases.
    2
  649. @He loves you! You are really uneducated about the definitions of words
    2
  650. Tell that to the 2% of rape victims.
    2
  651.  Lizzie Allen  Morning after pill doesn't always work, isn't always available, and some people with pre-existing medical conditions cannot take it. Where are you going that an abortion is $1300? The bottom line is consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. Stop giving a fetus rights it does not have. It does not have rights above the mother.
    2
  652. If it's a parasite on me, then I decide what happens to it. You thinking its terribly wrong is your opinion. I think its terribly wrong to let a child be neglected and abused by an unfit mother.
    2
  653. Life isn't what matters. You destroy life every day. Sentience is what look for, and sorry. Thats a point for pro-choice.
    2
  654. Except, its not. Murder is a legal term. Nothing inherently wrong with being selfish. As far as cruel, the fetus lacks sentience at the time of most abortions.
    2
  655. Yes, because lets pretend that everyone who had an abortion CHOSE to have sex. Let's also pretend that NONE of them used contraception. Let's ALSO PRETEND that you CAN'T be against abortion and be pro-choice. But even if that was the case, so what? I don't consent to a fetus using my organ. It is therefore my right to get rid of it.
    2
  656.  @esppupsnkits4560  Show me a fetus that can develop its own body without the use of a woman's uterus, and you may then have an argument.
    2
  657. Egg Head because murder is by definition unlawful, which abortion is not. Killing and murder are not interchangeable terms.
    2
  658. Egg Head Actually she did. I'm just a failed abortion.
    2
  659. Egg Head I don't think your sexist for being pro life. You mean the question of if I'm happy my mother didn't abort me? No I'm not. She tried to abort me and failed. However, at the time, I wouldn't have cared. Because I lacked a brainstem. Sex is a natural part of human nature. Forcing abstinence is unhealthy.
    2
  660. Sarah That's also not an argument against abortion, since the fetus isn't a baby medically or scientifically. There's a reason why a mother may choose to have an abortion. Try to think about quality over being alive. Just a different perspective.
    2
  661. Abortion is a necessary evil as of this point in time. And I'm sorry, but using the "I'm Christian" speech is irrelevant. Not everyone is Christian, and your God is certainly not pro-life (at least not according to the Bible). Coincidentally, your Bible is ALSO pro-slavery, even giving instructions on how to beat your slaves.
    2
  662. Kaylee Foyer I wouldn't care, because I wouldn't have developed a brain that was needed to care. That being said, when the heartbeat begins to beat separately from the mother, I think abortion should be off the table.
    2
  663. I don't know any pro-choice intelligent people that deny a fetus is a living thing. It just that the fact that its living is irrelevant.
    2
  664.  M  Actually, the New Testament does not free you from the Old Testament. The very foundation of your religion is in the Old Testament
    2
  665.  @nf4866  Senteince is the ability to think and feel subjectively, so no. Their comparison isnt valid. A comatose person, unless braindead, is still sentient. They're just not sentient in the way we are. A fetus is a detriment to the mother. That's just a fact. It steals her vital nutrients in order to develop, potentially making her very ill. This is why so much stress is put on neonatal care. It most certainly is the correct use, whether or not you accept that or not. No where in the definition does it say anything about a choice. There's also a birth defect called parasitic twinning.
    2
  666.  @badezimmertv1457  So then why is there a birth defect called "parasitic twinning"? No, it does not have to be a different species.
    2
  667.  @ebonie4002  Because it is by definition. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing. It's not my fault that you failed biology and don't understand that parasitism is not necessarily negative.
    2
  668.  @ivyk378  I'm not dehumanizing anything. I have never personally had an abortion, so I can't feel guilty killing one. However, I feel more guilty for the children who are physically, emotionally and sexually abused because fuckers like you guilted an unfit mother into keeping them. I'm all for exploring all options, which I've mentioned before. But assholes like you who just want to ban abortions thinking you'll help anyone are delusional.
    2
  669. Responsibility isn't something that you can just do. You expect people with no means to take care of themselves to take care of a child? That's ignorant and unrealistic. Crappy childhood? How about people like me who weee abused and permanently disabled? How about the thousands of children who died to child abuse or neglect?
    1
  670.  @lowlysix5502  No, its simply being honest about how the world works. No one argues that every child deserves a chance, but they deserve a chance at a STABLE and HAPPY life. And if that can't be provided, many believe death without knowledge is a better alternative.
    1
  671. Because the God of the Bible certainly condones abortions, even actively performing it. How about we talk about God punishing the Israelites by destroying their unborn? Or about Samaria's people who's unborn were ripped out and thrown against rocks? God is not pro-life.
    1
  672.  @EvanHarris456  Having an abortion is just a responsible as deciding to keep it. Having a baby you then neglect and abuse because you cannot care for it is irresponsible. Pro-Life is against abortion in all circumstances by definition. No exceptions.
    1
  673. She couldn't have realized its "objectively wrong". Because it isn't. Nothing is. Morality is a manmade entirely subjective concept. Abortion is okay in circumstances. Perhaps look at it from another perspective as to why someone would choose to have an abortion.
    1
  674.  @sydneygehl445  I do not know a SINGLE pro-life foster parent. Know why? Because they want children within their own standards. Now, I'm sure they exist. But they are NOT most people and most pro-lifers DO NOT want their money to help crisis women, nor do they SUPPORT birth control or sex education.
    1
  675. Because you advocate for people who are raped and who are drug addicts to be forced to be parents, thus endangering their child. "Most of these women have a means to provide for themselves and their children." 1. That has to be backed up with evidence and 2. That's not the point. Most pro-choicers themselves would never have an abortion, because they DO have the means. But they understand that is not the case for all. Also, yes ER's can and do turn away people that are unable to pay for procedures, though these occurrences are rare. Neither pro-life or pro-choice is hateful in most circumstances. But we view this topic very, very differently.
    1
  676. Oh really? Lets here something thats not an argument from emotion fallacy or straight up untrue.
    1
  677.  @kingorange7739  I don't think its okay. I can even grant you that its immoral. I still think its necessary.
    1
  678.  @ethanm.2411  Because I can also argue that it is immoral to watch a child suffer at the hands of an abusive parent. Morally, I think abortion is a lesser of two evils.
    1
  679.  @ethanm.2411  Because they statistically are. Parents who consider abortion do it because they feel they are unable to support a child, and then naturall can't (either physically, emotionally or financially) after birth. This creates situations for abuse and neglect.
    1
  680.  @ethanm.2411  Also no. I'm not an antinatalist. I hold a neutral position to pregnancy and birth. I don't think its morally wrong to be a mother, put a child up for adoption, choose to not have sex, use protection, or to abort. I have 2 children who I love very much. I believe pregnancy and birth is an individual decision.
    1
  681.  @ethanm.2411  Because I don't hold to the belief that abortion is outright wrong. Thats just not my sense pf morality. No, thats not quite it. Everyone will suffer in life at some point. Thats an inevitability. I believe it is immoral to use your position to dictate what others should and should not do when making decisions for themselves. I believe, whether you choose motherhood, adoption or abortion, as long as you have a serious check and you act on what you truly believe is best, you made the right decision. One of the best women I know had an abortion, and that decision was made for the right reasons. I have no moral objection to that.
    1
  682.  @ethanm.2411  But see, your own argument is a fallacy as well. Just because you say its wrong does not make it so. Also no. If we're speaking strictly legally, a fetus does not have the right to life. And that fetuses right to life does not supersede the right to liberty for the mother. They are equal. Just as you cannot be forced to give blood or an organ to a dying person
    1
  683.  @ethanm.2411  My morals are based on secular humanism. If we were in a debate, I could grant you that abortion is immoral. Thats called "granting the premise". That doesn't mean my viewpoint alligns with this premise. I do not believe a well considered abortion immoral, regardless of the reasoning behind it.
    1
  684.  @ethanm.2411  Yes, but I do not place non-sentient life above sentient life, and view abortion as a legal issue more than a moral one. Abortion is never convenient, no matter what the reason behind it is. You are denomized for it and you must pay out of pocket. I fail to see how thats convenient. Immoral, to me, is violating another sentient human beings rights and victimization of that sentient being. The difference between us is you place inherent value on life, whereas I place value on sentience.
    1
  685. Adam 86 Please look up the definiton of murder. It's being honest with science. Its not about life. It's about sentience.
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  686. Because people who can't care for children vastly outnumber people who are infertile.
    1
  687. "Its own DNA" - yeah, that is 99% genetically simliar to its parents, which is hardly unique. "Its own blood type" -It does not have this from the moment of conception. It develops its blood as it grows. Your blood type is also directly based on your parents. Doctors cannot tell that from the moment of conception. In fact, they usually can't even tell sex or potential problems until after most abortions are performed. Yes, a new life is created at conception. That's not the argument.
    1
  688.  @ethanm.2411  It uses my body for its growth and development. So yes, it is my body. Its not PART of nlmy body. Until you can show me a fetus that can develop independently of a mother's womb.
    1
  689. Like what? What reasons could you give to take away the rights of pregnant women and the dying?
    1
  690.  @ethanm.2411  Nothing is objectively wrong, but you can use subjectiveism towards an objective framework. For the US, thats the Constitution. Is it subjective? Yes. But its the objective framework because thats what our country is based on.
    1
  691.  @ethanm.2411  Its wrong to me, but no. Its not objectively wrong. Because the definition of objectivity requires everyone to collectively agree, and some people justify torture. I do not change the definitions of words to suit my narrative.
    1
  692.  @ethanm.2411  Except I didn't. I gave you the exact definition of objectivity as defined when it comes to morality. Its you who twists the words to suit your definition. I am not using the philosophical meaning of objectivity. I'm using the established, or colloquial, definition. I have no interest in debating philosophy, because we will never agree. Objective morality, in the simplest terms, is the belief that morality is universal, meaning that it isn't up for interpretation. This is the definition I gave. I do not believe in objectivity because it is not universal. Thus, while I personally could never excuse child torture, someone else could. By the way, even by your definition, it would not be objective. There is no natural fact of the world that child torture is wrong. Thats a societal and social construct. Objective: not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts. This cannot be used in cases of morality, because there is no facts to base morality on. This, however, can apply to your Earth analogy. The Earth being round is an objective fact, as it can be seen and tested as such. The one trying to suit their narrative is you. I have no horse in this race.
    1
  693. Nope, thats not true. I'm a humanist and think abortion is okay. Not on a moral ground, but a legal one. Even if I granted you abortion is wrong, I could argue forcing a child into a life statistically of abuse and neglect is wrong as well. Then it becomes a matter of lesser of two evils. By the way, if you're using the life argument, then you admit to being a hypocrite. Unless of course, you are vegan, anti-gun, anti-death penalty and anti-military.
    1
  694. So in other words, you're a hypocrite.
    1
  695.  Lizzie Allen  Because Plan B is available everywhere and is safe for everyone right? Oh wait.
    1
  696.  Lizzie Allen  Their website lists nothing about buying it online, only lists of stores where you can find it. Birth control pills are prescribed by a doctor and once again, not everyone can safely take them.
    1
  697.  @135iN55  The problem is you are trying to put one right (right to life) above the others. And actually, if you wanted to get technical, they are debatable, as you have no "unalienable rights" without a government. Nature simply doesn't care.
    1
  698.  @135iN55  There is no such thing as natural law. God has never been proven to exist, so he cannot make laws. Only humans who attribute laws to him. This is why I argued from a technical perspective, not a legal or governmental one.
    1
  699. Too bad that can't always be prevented unless potentially unhealthy decisions are made.
    1
  700.  @strive4252  I have no problem with suicide. That is up to the individual. And actually, yes. I do believe that death is better than life in certain situations. Suicide occurs when pain outweighs pain management. Your analogy makes no sense. You are comparing a group of sentient individuals who can make conscioua decisions to a non-sentient unborn fetus. "Obviously thats not right" Says who? Thats your subjective opinion. "Who are you to say which lives deserves living?" You are doing the same thing. You just have. I'm a failed abortion, and despite my accomplishments, i wish my mother had succeeded in aborting me. And there are millions of people who feel the same way, just as there are people who strive for life.
    1
  701.  @fellowweeb3716  Neither does pro-choice.
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  702.  @fellowweeb3716  That doesn't make it murder. Murder is a legal term.
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  703.  M  Murder is only a legal term.
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  704.  M  That would be an incorrect use of the term "murder". And you knew I was speaking from an etymological perspective. I shall be more specific then. Murder, as a term that deals with the subject of death, is only a legal term. Is that better? "Gravely immoral killing" is a subjective phrase and has nothing to do with the definition of murder. In the field of ethics, I could debate you that while abortion is "immoral" it is better than the alternative. I don't understand why that concept is so hard to understand.
    1
  705. Show me a fetus that can grow without parasitzing my nutrients via implantation in my uterus and then you can argue its not my body. It does not exist without the ability to implant. Should I be allowed to have a doctor take your kidney or lung without consent because it saves my life, since life is so much more valuabe than autonomy? Should hospitals be banned from slow codes and DNR's? Should women not be allowed to recieve treatment for ectopic pregnancies?
    1
  706. What other argument is there for pro-life? I am eager to hear why you are pro-life. Especially since pro-life doesn't just apply to abortion.
    1
  707. Doesn't take into account failed abortions
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  708.  @toniniskillz6608  I meant people who mothers attempted to abort but failed
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  709. No one smart denies that abortion terminates life. But it is not murder. Murder has an established definition. You don't get to change it because you don't agree with it. I can have an abortion because it my Constitutional right. Its that simple. Killing does not equate to murder in all scenarios.
    1
  710. Ok Susceptible A failing, broken thing that isn't always reliable and can be more expensive than having an abortion depending on where you live.
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  711. Ok Susceptible It depends. Some places have programs that will care for the child for free until the child can be put in the system. Other places have grants you can apply for that will help you financially while you wait. Sometimes, neither of these things happen, and you are forced to pay for the child until you can put it up for adoption.
    1
  712. Adoption should be looked into, but is a broken system.
    1
  713.  @TubeWolfTHEWolftuber  Congrats. Your one of the lucky ones. Plenty of others are placed in homes where they are abused, neglected, and sometimes killed.
    1
  714. @douglas carpenter I'm not, but believe what you will
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  715. @douglas carpenter One, I'm a girl. And two, no I haven't.
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  716. @douglas carpenter Politics is something I tend not to be involved in. This is what happens when you make assumptions without asking people what their position is. I do not view abortion as a moral debate. I view it as a legal one. I can agree that abortion is wrong, though I do not equate it to drowing a sentient child. I still think in many circumstances, it is the lesser of two evils
    1
  717. @douglas carpenter No, you simply don't have a right to someone else's body without consent. Simple as that. "Right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness". A mother having an abortion is. None of my posts on my end have disappeared. I never delete comments
    1
  718. A fetus in womb is not a baby. Nor is it murder, as it is not unlawful. If people WILL help the mother, most of the time she won't abort. She chooses to abort, a majority of the time, because no one will help her. I don't have the right to slaughter a baby. But I do have the right to terminate a non sentient parasite should I choose.
    1
  719. @Dave m So that gives Gid justification to punish children for the sins of their parents? And you see nothing wrong with that? Also, the new testament does not free you from the shackles of the old testament.
    1
  720. @Dave m That is just a bold faced lie. Leave it to the fundamentalist to support genocide.
    1
  721. Nobody murders a child during an abortion.
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  722.  M  That's meerly your viewpoint. And no, it is potential. The fetus's cells are living and devloping with it. But I place merit on sentience and not life.
    1
  723.  M  Its life in the physical and literal sense. But to me, not in the philosophical sense. I don't believe anything is inherently valuable, sentient or otherwise. For me though, sentience is where I believe the line should be drawn when it comes to rights and most abortions. I've said this before, but I don't think I have to you. I don't view abortion as a moral issue. I don't argue morals. I view abortion strictly as a legal issue.
    1
  724.  M  But everyone's sense of morality is different. Where you find abortion immoral, I see a need. And where I find forced birth immoral, you see value and structure. I completely agree. I think the may reason you and I disagree is because you place value on that fetus where I do not.
    1
  725.  @SydLane  People dying is a natural part of life. Thats just the reality we live in. No, you're right. Killing is never definitively wrong. There are instances where killing is justified, such as war or self-defense. You believe killing is wrong because of the ideals you build based on the time period and society you are raised in. Not all people have that. I believe sentient life has more "value" over non-sentient life (though I don't believe either has inherent value). Its not inconsistent at all. I support the established rights of the mother over the supposed rights of the fetus. Inherent value does not equate to self value. I think people are valuable, both to themselves and others, but thats based on them. Its not something you're born with.
    1
  726.  @SydLane  Because I have a viewpoint and I like to see other people's perspectives. I enjoy debatihg people. I enjoy learning new things. My basis for my beliefs comes from humanism. In the grand scheme, no. I don't think anything matters. But I do think it matters in life. Also, no. I didn't.
    1
  727.  M  Perhaps to you, its a moral issue. I just don't personally view it as such. Yes I am a vegan. Have been for close to 10 years now. I place value on sentience because thats potential. If I'm being entirely honest however, I don't really like term valuable to describe people. Its just arbitrary. Thats when the legal thing kicks in. I just would like people to suffer as little as possible.
    1
  728.  @SydLane  No I didn't. Based on the definition of murder, if it wasn't unlawful, then its not murder. Period. Even if by our standards now, it would be.
    1
  729. They shouldn't be, but life isnt the issue. Sentience is what matters.
    1
  730. Jimins jams Amin She is facing the consequence and makes a responsible decision in whichever route she chooses to take, including abortion.
    1
  731. Jimins jams Amin The law disagrees. She isn't killing a baby. She's aborting a fetus. The fetus, until a certain point, doesn't care if it's aborted. Treat the causes of why a.woman seeks an abortion, and only then can we end it.
    1
  732. Jimins jams Amin No, a fetus is not a baby, either medically or scientifically. I never once said a fetus isn't living. It is. But that's not the point. It's not sentient.
    1
  733. Jimins jams Amin I am well aware of that. However, that is way far off when most abortions take place, which is between 6 and 9 weeks. Personally, I would have the absolute cut off date at 15 weeks, when the fetus becomes sentient. No, scientists don't consider a fetus a baby because medically it's only a baby after it has been born.
    1
  734. Jimins jams Amin Technically, in some states and at the federal level, you could have an abortion at 9 months. However, I believe in sentience as opposed to life.
    1
  735. Jimins jams Amin Yes, and that is also when the brainstem develops to the point where it can feel pain, and it's systems are functioning independently from the mother.
    1
  736. Jimins jams Amin And? I'm well aware of how biology works. It's still not medically considered a baby until after birth.
    1
  737. It is incredibly sad the amount of people who can't understand the opposition to their own beliefs and want to make the choice for everyone.
    1
  738. XXxkylebirchxXX Adoption is expensive and isn't always available. Agencies in the last few years have turned away mother's because they no longer have the room to carry more children. Adoption is one of the first options explored before deciding to have an abortion.
    1
  739. XXxkylebirchxXX Yeah I know. This shit needs to be fixed.
    1
  740. Because the ramifications on a child when you force a mother to give birth is repulsive. When the root causes of why most abortions happen are eradicated, then we can live in a world without abortion. A world I'm sure even pro-choice wants to live in. To force that is unacceptable.
    1
  741.  Lizzie Allen  You do realize that some people can't afford 50 or 60 dollars and that in some states, you HAVE to have a prescription to get the morning after pill?
    1
  742.  Lizzie Allen  Yeah. You're being disingenuous.
    1
  743. I'm sorry you're too ignorant to realize how many people don't get the privilege of being adopted like you were, or are not adopted by loving families. You should consider yourself lucky.
    1
  744.  @anushkamargaj2322  No, I simply believe life holds no inherent value. I don't think being human makes you special. And many people would rather never experience life than be miserable. Thats why its a choice
    1
  745. That's interesting because pro-life really has no solid secular argument.
    1
  746. Chana Kielski Fetuses are not human beings. They have the potential to be human beings. Sex is a natural part of humans and protection fails. If a life is a life, then I guess you oppose capital punishment and are a vegan
    1
  747. Probably were. But theres a difference between a sentient person and a non sentient parasitic fetus. Once that fetus is sentient, then abortion should be off the table.
    1
  748.  @fe4rxdemon47  That didn't make them any less of a sentient human, which is something a fetus isnt until a certain point.
    1
  749. No, the question has nothing to do with life. The question has to do with sentience. As a failed abortion yes. I would have rather been aborted.
    1
  750.  @amberpowell2609  I am a failed abortion. And you're absolutely mistaken. Only a minority of people who grow up in unhealthy and toxic homes live normal lives. You said "ask those kids if they would have rather had a hard life or been aborted" I am ONE of those kids. I would have rather been aborted, despite my accomplishments.
    1
  751. Do you understand why doctors do not perform those procedures on people that young? Because it's not reversible, and they don't want to be sued.
    1
  752.  @le_hope8349  No. There has never been any medical evidence to prove that aborting lowers your risk of pregnancy. Unless of course you choose the back alley method of abortion. Sex is only for procreation if you are religious. Sex is healthy for the body. That's why it's pleasurable.
    1
  753.  @le_hope8349  Then she went to a person who didn't know what they were doing and damaged her uterus. Abortions do not risk your chance of getting pregnant. There has been no scientific evidence of that. Correlation does not equal causation. Yes I do. I had to have my uterus removed completely. I'll never be able to birth children because of something that someone else did to me. I never said it wasn't traumatic. It is. But You do stupid things when you're young that you later regret. Sterilisation is permenant.
    1
  754. A child in the womb doesn't have legal rights until it gains sentience.
    1
  755.  @raspberrygloss6013  Guess what a miscarriage is called? A self-abortion. There's no difference except one is the body while the other is external.
    1
  756.  @raspberrygloss6013  Key words being "can be". Why are you afraid of having a discussion?
    1
  757. I feel the lack of knowledge of why abortions occur and the failure of basic biology when it comes to the issue of sentience and a fetus is sad.
    1
  758. Some people can use condoms or take plan b. Also, a fetus isnt an infant.
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  759. People who believe a fetus is a baby and want to see people killed for an action like abortion need to be locked in a psych ward.
    1
  760. Hey, listen up. If you have an abortion it IS NOT murder. That is not an opinion that is a fact. The cardiovascular system doesn't even form until 4 weeks, and if you can detect a heartbeat at 6-7 weeks, that is the mothers doing. A fetuses heart does not beat on it's own until between 10-12 weeks, when the brainstem is formed. That's when most heartbeats are detected. The fetus has no choice, because it has no brainstem nor sentience. Why doesn't the cow that you shoved down your throat for dinner have a choice? Because it lacks higher cognitive function. Adoption is not always an option. It is NOT free and children HAVE been turned away, because of lack of room and funds. Adoption certainly should be looked into, but is not always an option. No, it isnt necessarily better for the baby. That baby may never be adopted. Then guess what happens? It is kicked out at 18 with nothing. Only basic education and no way to get a job or go to college. That's not even considering the fact that they may be taken into abusive households. It is alive. So what? So are cows, chickens and pigs. You don't give a damn about them. Just because she had severe problems doesn't mean everyone does. Also no. I'm not pro-abortion. That implies that I want women to have abortions, or I think they are obligated to. You want to restrict people's rights, but you wouldnt save anyone by doing that
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  761.  @wasimmunshi429  I love how you just make the assumption that I'm a leftist, but I will have an open debate with you. Pro-abortion, whether you mean it to or not, carries the connotation that a) pro-choice people WANT women to have an abortion; b) Pro-choice people believe that abortions should be a first option and c) Pro-choice demand an abortion for women. None of these are true. Pro-choice means I want the woman to make an informed, rational decision on what is best for her and for the fetus. And what's best is very rarely what's easy. Abortion is an option for a reason, and forcing an unfit mother to give birth to a child she cannot care for is neither informed nor rational.
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  762.  @wasimmunshi429  It is an assumption, because you do not know me, nor understand what I represent, which you made quite clear in your first comment. I am not a leftist by any means, but if you would like to consider me as such, go ahead. A) First and foremost, a fetus (or foetus) is not a child nor a baby. This is both scientifically and medically. Even a to term fetus does not become a baby until after it is out of utero. It is, in all honesty, none of your business what their reasoning behind an abortion is. B) I never once say suicide shouldn't be an option. I support the right to die of a sentient being just as much as I support a right to life of a sentient being. Actually, I don't care how the pregnancy happened. Your scenario draws no comparison. For one, abortion is not illegal. No law is broken by having an abortion (unless you have an abortion past your states gestation limit). You harm no sentient being when having an abortion. Having an abortion, just like suicide, is NOT "an easy way out". Both can and do have long-term physical and psychological damages. Despite what you may believe, realizing you are not qualified to take care of a child and choosing to abort when it lacks sentience IS responsible. C) Planned Parenthood isnt JUST abortions. You people like to parade around having "safe sex" and "healthy sexual education". Planned Parenthood is part of that. I completely agree in having safe sex and not being reckless. But to defy you human nature when it presents itself is unhealthy and damaging. No. It is the child's health and wellbeing (pregnancy through life) that concerns me. How about this. People who are pro-life should have to raise, provide, and pay for those children that they refuse to allow to be aborted. It's so funny how you claim we don't care about post delivery, yet I doubt you would ever consider adoption or fostering a child that was likely thrown into that life by your rhetoric. When I hear 8-13 year olds scream every night "No one loves me" "I wish I was never born" and "I wish I had been aborted" it upsets me. Don't imply I only care about pregnancy. You're very wrong.
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  763. You do, however, own your organ. And no one gets to use it for their own purpose without your explicit consent.
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  764.  @travisjohnson7065  It doesn't matter what its job is. It belongs to YOU. No one else uses it without YOUR consent. The fetus has no "will". Thats ridiculous.
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  765.  @travisjohnson7065  The uterus does not belong to the fetus. It belongs to the woman. It is using the uterus to develop. That has to happen with the mother's consent. No one has the right to live at someone else's expense. Period. A fetus has no more a right to my uterus as I do a right to your kidney. It doesn't have a will to stay alive. If that were the case, miscarriages would never occur.
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  766.  @travisjohnson7065  I don't personally think its valuable. I don't believe life has inherent value. Yeah, I had an abortion. Because I had to. Not because I wanted to. Not because I was irresponsible. A human has no rights above those of anyone else on a fundamental level. I don't get to live at the cost of your liberty. End of story. No baby after birth is living at the expense of another in terms of rights. The CHOICE is what makes all the difference. Keeping someone alive does not mean giving up your rights. If you're thesis on a "fetus's will to live" and the "body naturally wanting to nurture a fetus" were true, then miscarriages would be a rarity. But they aren't. They're a common occurrence. Sex exists for a multitude of reasons. Please come out of the dark ages.
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  767.  @rhiannon9114  Science pointing to life beginning at conception doesn't mean anything. Life isn't the argument. If that were the case, anyone who wasn't anti-death penalty, anti-gun, anti-euthansia, or non-vegan would be a hypocrite. You care about sentience. Things that have emotion and can feel and experience.
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  768. Then it's a good thing abortion isn't murder
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  769.  @SomeGuyNotKnown  Because it doesn't fit the established definition what murder is.
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  770.  @SomeGuyNotKnown  You know...Google is a thing. mur·der /ˈmərdər/ noun 1. the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
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  771.  @SomeGuyNotKnown  Both definitions of murder require the word "unlawful". What you do is associate killing, or termination of life, with murder. These are not the same things. Would you argue that taking a brain dead person off of life support, or ceasing treatment for an ill patient, is murder? Both of those are termination of life. Words have established definitions. I gave you the definition, not the "legal" definition. For the record, I am not trying to change your mind about abortion. Merely giving you perspective.
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  772.  @SomeGuyNotKnown  The law isnt always right, but there is a difference between a sentient person of a different race and a non-sentient fetus. That should be what we focus on. Sentience. Not life. Because truth be told, unless you are against hunting, the death penalty, euthanasia and are vegan, you don't care about life.
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  773.  @SomeGuyNotKnown  I know they aren't. Neither are fetuses at the time of most abortions. If you do not value all life the same, then pardon me for saying this, but I find that quite hypocritical. But that's just my opinion.
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  774.  @niceguy5501  Intention has nothing to do with whether something is murder. It has to do with whether or not the action was unlawful. I highly doubt you know how most abortions are performed. People who know little on the subject seem to think the fetus has all their limbs broken and their brain sucked out with a vacuum. Sure, you can still get a surgical abortion, but they are not the majority. An obstetrician will actively try and talk you out of a surgical abortion.
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  775.  @AngelBagel03  And they should all be explored. But none of them are free, and they are all still emotionally demanding. I believe abortion should be the last resort
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  776. Gavin Burnes In your opinion.
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  777. The law says otherwise.
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  778.  @faithblessing7551  That's your subjective opinion. I think its morally wrong to subject a child to an unfit mother.
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  779.  @faithblessing7551  Well, its a good thing abortion isn't murder. So no, I don't support murder. Protection doesn't help after the fact. Forcing an unfit mother to attempt to care for a child is setting that child up for misery, which is vile in my opinion. Adoption should certainly be considered, but is not always an option. Until that fetus is sentient, it IS her body. The developing fetus is parasitic on the host mother for growth. Human life is not inherently valuable. Get over yourself.
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  780.  @parthenon5106  Nope, because it doesn't fit the established definition of murder.
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  781.  @faithblessing7551  No, its simply honest. I'm sorry you can't be bothered to google the definition of murder.
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  782.  @parthenon5106  Technically you can. You'd just be punished for it. Because one is a sentient being that has legal rights and the other is not.
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  783. Gabriel Castillo It's only considered a double homicide if the mother if 5 months along or more. Most women choose an abortion because they ultimately realize they are not fit to handle a child at that point. Don't call yourself pro life when you don't give a shit about any life except humans, and you don't give a shit about the quality of life the fetus will have.
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  784. Gabriel Castillo Guess what? There are some people who can't use birth control. Repressing your natural instincts is unhealthy. And yeah actually. Woman can opt out of having a kid. That's why abortion is around. In all seriousness, no one, even those who are pro choice, want to see a woman have an abortion. But if we want to end abortions, we have to treat the causes, not the symptoms. It's like taking cancer treatment without removing the tumor. It's not going to help in the long run.
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  785. Gabriel Castillo So how do you push birth control in those who cannot take it? If you made birth control illegal, you wouldn't save any lives. In fact, you'd end more lives.
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  786. Gabriel Castillo Women like myself cannot take birth control and some stores do not carry latex free condoms. If you outlawed abortion, you wouldn't save any lives. You would kill more
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  787. Gabriel Castillo They aren't rare at all. It's a pain in the ass to order them, and people are fickle. So they choose not to. Yes I agree with using protection, but people don't. That will never change.
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  788. Gabriel Castillo If you outlawed abortion, you would skyrocket deaths of fetuses and mother's and you would skyrocket child abuse
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  789. Gabriel Castillo Because you would force women to go into back alleys to have abortions done, not only killing the fetus you so desperately want to save, but killing the mother as well. Because it's simple cause an effect. When you force a mother to give birth to a child she cannot take care of, you statistically raise the chance of her becoming resentful and violent towards that child. I am basing my arguments on statistics. 36% of women convicted of child abuse, neglect or homicide wanted an abortion in the first place. Because they knew if they couldn't take of themselves, they couldn't take care of a child. You would only raise these rates by outlawing abortion before treating the root causes of why abortions happen.
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  790.  @connermcgarrah2171  Actually, there is consent to pregnancy. Because it requires the use of anothers organ to happen.
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  791.  @torvusignis9283  No, it isn't. Those are two seperate occurances. You can consent to sex and not consent to the implantation of an embryo. Consent must be given for both. Period.
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  792. alvaro alas Sometimes having an abortion is taking responsibilty. It's realizing you don't have the mental or physical capability to care for a child.
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  793. topherh33 Look up the evidence yourself. Even if I was wrong, it still wouldn't be murder because murder by definition is UNLAWFUL, which abortion is not. Personally, I think 3 months is pushing it. A majority of abortions take place when the fetus is between 6 and 8 weeks. It has no developed nervous system and has only begun to develop the basis of what will become the brainstem. Sentience is the ability to feel and experience subjectively. No brain or brainstem? No sentience. Too many children are abused, killed and neglected because their parent or parents are unfit to care for them
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  794. topherh33 I'm all for fixing the adoption system. I would love to live in a world where abortion didn't exist. But if you'd be willing to allow children to go through the same abuse and neglect you had to go through, then I don't think you care at all about humanity. There's a reason abortion exists, even though we wish it didn't.
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  795. Brandon Hays It is killing. So is capital punishment. So is stepping on a bug. So is euthanizing an animal. So is eating a cheeseburger. Since when are we on such a pedastal? The debate on abortion should be about sentience and the quality of life.
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  796. Unintelligent Individual Sentience is the ability to think and feel subjectively. Up until sentience, a fetus is incapable of feeling and is a parasite on its mother.
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  797. Unintelligent Individual Because that's when the fetus is capable of living on its own biologically and develops the ability to feel pain.
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  798. Unintelligent Individual Because sentience is what most people believe is "life" You only have ethics, feelings and morality is you have sentience. There's a difference between being alive and living.
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  799. There are 44,000 children currently waiting to be adopted.
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  800. So fuck the Constitution? Fuck someone who was raped, has pregnancy complications, or is mentally ill?
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  801.  @4nanymous4812  So because I enjoy anime, my opinion is invalid? That is perhaps to most ridiculous argument.
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  802.  @4nanymous4812  That's the pot calling the kettle black. Forgive me for putting "to" instead of "the". The Constitution has everything to do with this, as it protects the right to an abortion. It doesn't matter whether or not most abortions are because of people having unprotected sex. If you outlaw abortions, on the grounds that the human fetus deserves protection, then you would have to outlaw abortion for any reason. Rape victims who choose to keep the child CAN love them, but they often associate that child with trauma, and don't love them like they should. And no, the majority of people who develop medical complications (like myself) often do get abortions, as its often life-threatening.
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  803.  Lizzie Allen  Oh please. The vast majority of people who do these things are pro-choice, because a majority is pro-choice. By the way smartass, did you know you can be pro-choice and anti-abortion? Probably not.
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  804. Funny. Because neither does a fetus at the times of most abortions.
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  805.  @Unimaginable  Never said it wasn't human. Sentience has not developed at 10 weeks. The neural network has only started to form its myelin covering. 96% of abortions take place before the end of the first trimester.
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  806.  @Unimaginable  No. Human life is just human life. If your asking about where personhood lies, then yes. It lies in sentience. I don't believe life is inherently valuable.
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  807.  @Unimaginable  Its only "murder" if it violates the law. So my answer would be if the fetus is sentient and it is passed the cutoff date for abortions in your specific area. Also, I'm assuming this isn't for medical purposes.
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  808.  @Unimaginable  Murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of one human being by another. Murder is strickly a legal term. Yes, thats still slavery. Because it fits in the definition. Its not my definition of human life. Its the definition of personhood.
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  809. As if we all wanted to be born.
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  810.  @SKgyebaek  I didn't get a choice on whether or not I was born. So no, the argument doesn't stand.
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  811.  @SKgyebaek  I'm not dim. That's precisely the point. That quote banks on the fact that if a fetus COULD choose to be aborted or not, they would never choose abortion. The problem is that isn't true. Umm no. The fetus is not biologically geared towards life. If that were the case, miscarriages would not happen. If the circumstances allow, a fetus will live, but everything organic is designed that way. Its not a baby. And its not murder. These are not opinions. These are facts.
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  812.  @SKgyebaek  Actually, miscarriages are quite normal. Often, women miscarry before they even know they're pregnant. Miscarriages later in gestation are considered abnormal. The way your framing this is really dishonest. Given conditions allow any type of organic life to "live". Your original comment however implies an active choice being made. That people who actively choose to support abortion have already gotten a chance at life. This is implying that they got the chance to live, yet do not offer that chance to someone else. My point is that they never got to make an active choice on that, and therefore, that argument would fall apart if the person who wanted to abort made the point that they did not want to be born in thr first place. Its really not that hard to understand. You just seem a bit uneducated on this topic.
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  813. We have plenty of research to show that a fetus is incapable of feeling pain up until a certain point, simply because it lacks the nerve receptors that control pain and a brainstem to process it. Glad to know you dont think it should be outlawed though. It should be an option, albeit a last resort.
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  814. Good thing a fetus isnt a person until its sentient.
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  815. Well abortion isn't murder for starters, and life isn't what is valued. You're not special just because your human.
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  816. @God First No it doesn't. That is a claim you would have to prove with facts apart from emotion, something you can't do. I never said life wasn't valuable. I said it wasn't INHERNTLY valuable.
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  817. @God First You're just wrong at that point. Not all life is special, and I'm sorry if you've been fed that lie. In the grand scheme of everything, you don't matter. That's why it's more important, in my opinion, to focus on the self. Because if YOU can't care for yourself, you cannot help and care for others.
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  818. @God First That isn't what I said. Just because you're biologically born to die doesn't mean you aren't valuable, or are worthless, or undeserving of life. It's fine that's what you believe. Truthfully, I wish the world was like that.
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  819.  @Trevorki  A beating heart isn't how we define even life. Many things that are living don't have a heartbeat. We judge humans based on brain activity, something a fetus does not have until a certain period.
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  820. @god first bro I actually don't believe you. Most can say that have never been put in that situation. You are an animal, and have a need to protect oneself. I'd bet that you'd escape to save yourself. And if that happened to be true, there isn't anything wrong with that.
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  821. Mathilde Young You ever consider that there are women out there who, I don't know, can't take birth control? So they shouldn't be allowed to have sex?
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  822. The government doesn't pay for abortions. Thats illegal. The Hyde Amendment exists.
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  823.  @reubenvarghese3588  One, not true. And two, planned parenthood does more than perform abortions. And the abortions performed still have outside hospitals and doctors that the woman must pay for out of pocket.
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  824.  @reubenvarghese3588  They aren't funded by the government just because they are done through an agency. The AGENCY is funded. The ABORTION procedure is paid for out of pocket.
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  825. Considering the Bible actively endorses abortion, I'd say you can most certainly be a Christian.
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  826. So you can't understand why someone would want the right to their uterus and to die on their terms?
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  827.  @rachelesswein9271  No its not. I work in this field for a living. 20 weeks along is when the law considers it seperate. For the record, I do not agree with that. The state can charge a person with a double homicide regardless of weeka in utero. But you won't get a long sentence on a state conviction Federally, a person will not be charged with a double homicide if the fetus is less than 20 weeks (which is 5 months). Once again, I'm pro-choice and do not agree with this.
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  828.  @rachelesswein9271  Yes, but there is a difference between a state law and a federal law. You won't get a murder conviction at the state level, because its a felony. It's a federal crime.
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  829.  @eloise6477  The state law does not trump the federal law.
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  830.  @eloise6477  The states are never supposed to trump the federal law when it comes to inherent and constitutional rights. When it deals with personal authority, it should be left up to the states.
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  831. I don't hate pro-life. I just disagree with their viewpoint.
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  832. Except it isn't murder. And yes you do until a certain point. A sentient woman's rights to autonomy trump a non-sentient fetus' development.
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  833.  @llrxnzloll6831  Because one had to do with rights where the other has to do with accountability. You or a woman pays child support because you are not helping raise the child. A woman chooses abortion because pregnancy affects her physical body.
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  834.  @llrxnzloll6831  Well one, it isn't murder. And two, no one's in the wrong. It was her body, she had the final decision. If the man is unhappy with that, then he now has the option to leave.
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  835.  @llrxnzloll6831  Its human from conception, because its a human conceiving. Murder must be unlawful by definition.
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  836.  @llrxnzloll6831  No, its human from the moment of conception.
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  837.  Lizzie Allen  Because a non-sentient fetus does not have more rights than I do and consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.
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  838.  @SydLane  The whole argument is based on feelings, because its a moral debate. You can use facts on either side to make your point, but facts cannot dictate morality. And I don't see how fighting for rights is entitlement.
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  839.  @SydLane  Just because both of us are atheists doesn't mean we find no meaning in life. Life has meaning to me. It just doesn't have inherent meaning. And even with a God, morality would still be subjective. You could argue God's opinion is the highest, but it would still be an opinion. Objectivity doesn't have to exist for right and wrong to exist. We can live by secular humanism.
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  840. Aurea Gallardo Fuck you. It's not just about you. I'm a failed abortion as well. You are not entitled to anything, including life. And if you had even the slightest amount of respect for your mother, you would be grateful for the life you have but sympathize with her. Abortion is not a selfish action. Be grateful that when you were born, you weren't neglected and abused. You wouldn't have given a shit if you were aborted, because you would have lacked a brain to care. Get over yourself, you little brat.
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  841. Nico NL Because a baby is a sentient being and a fetus, u too a certain point, is not.
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  842. A fetus cannot consciously make a choice as it is not senteint. It has no legal rights.
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  843. Mathilde Young Fetus is not a human being. It's a DNA cell cluster developing into a human being.
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  844. Aladeen Madafaka Get over it. Catholics are Christians. They're the largest sect of Christanity.
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  845. No its not. Has to be unlawful to be murder.
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  846. If you choose to watch children suffer at the hands of abusive parents because you didn't want them to die, you are truly a scary and disgusting person.
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  847.  Lizzie Allen  That's not my point. My point is if you want to call people disgusting for having an abortion, be prepared to be blamed for everything that happens to that child. There are people out there that did wish they had been aborted. To act like they're feelings don't matter and they should be grateful is despicable. I know everyone suffers. My point is some of these children suffer because of people like you, who shame unfit parents into keeping them.
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  848. Good thing abortion isn't murder.
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  849.  @parthenon5106  Yep. And that won't last. Nor will it stop people from getting an abortion. Nor will they be able to prosecute them, as the federal court would throw the case out. They'd only be able to charge them at a state level. Petitions are already in the supreme court about Alabama. That law will not stand.
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  850.  @parthenon5106  Based on all your responses, I don't believe for one second you're against that law. I think you would happily see women and children suffer if it meant them being born.
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  851.  @parthenon5106  You don't like seeing anyone suffer? But you think its wrong for someone to get an abortion? Thats a contradiction.
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  852. A fetus is incapable of suffering until it is sentient. By the way, other parts of the Bible not only supports abortion, but demands it.
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  853. Nice how you leave out the crucial detail that late term abortions are only done for medical necessity. The cutoff in most instances legally is 20 weeks, and most doctors will not perform an abortion past 15.
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  854. The exact definiton of pro-life is opposing abortion and euthanasia. There is no reason for you to try to change the law, yet you do.
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  855. Its not murder. Understand the definition of a word before you use it.
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  856. Pro-abortionist doesn't exist. Pro-choice encompasses the same choices pro-life does, but allows for abortion. Doesn't mean abortion is your only option.
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  857.  @SonGoku-777  Circumstances matter. Thats not being hypocritical.
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  858.  @SonGoku-777  Because circumstances matter and change. Opting to get an abortion because you believe its necessary and then opting for adopting is not hypocritical. What would be hypocritical would be just to decide you didn't want the child, abort it, then immediately adopt. That doesn't happen.
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  859.  @SonGoku-777  You should always consider adoption, but adoption is a fucked up system that doesn't guarentee happiness
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  860.  M  Thats also a strawman argument. Because those have nothing to do with abortion.
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  861.  M  I know exactly what a strawman is. Rape, murder and slavery violate another SENTIENT PERSON'S rights. Abortion does not. Bringing up rape etc. to an abortion debate is a strawman. They have nothing to do with each other. Why are you trying to destroy women and the dying's rights? Why do you think outlawing abortion will help anything?
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  862.  M  Abortion should be allowed because that choice is a right. A right outlined in the Constitution. You completely misunderstood why we use the term "choice" and that is why your argument is a strawman. Your argument was "since abortion is a legal choice, slavery, rape and muder should be a legal choice as well." At least that is how you framed it.
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  863. @Riri Sure, no problem.
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  864. @Riri I don't use any social media. I have a skype and a discord, and thats about it.
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  865.  M  Not true. The right to abortion is outlined both in the right to liberty (which literally meant the right to oneself) and the right to bodily autonomy. It had nothing to do with privacy. No, you weren't clear. Thats the general explanation behind pro-choice. I don't understand how you aren't understaning that is also the OC's point.
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  866.  M  That was one judges conclusion, not the decision as a whole. You've completely turned into an asshole because people do not agree with you. Maybe try even considering why we might be pro-choice.
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  867. I understand science and morals. I support a womans right to have an abortion, because life is not the issue. Sentience is.
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  868.  @webhead86104  No, because murder by definition is unlawful. Killing is not always synonymous with murder. Since when does life matter? You a vegan? Do you live with the insects and rodents who come into you house? Why is human life on such a pedestal? Don't be a hypocrite. If you're truly pro-life, then you're pro-life in all circumstances. You're vegan, anti abortion, anti death penalty, and anti euthanasia.
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  869.  @webhead86104  I don't believe you are intrinsically valuable. You are no more valuable than any other human born. What gives you value is the people who you affect by existing. Humans ARE animals. Quit putting us on a pedestal. It isnt murder unless it is unlawful, which abortion is not. Morality is subjective. I would argue forcing an unfit mother to birth a child is immoral. You don't have your "own" DNA unless you have a mutation. You have half your mothers and half your fathers.
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  870.  @webhead86104  I don't think I'm disturbed. I think I'm being quite rational. I'm pro choice because I know what happens when you force an unfit mother to give birth. You aren't unique. If you were unique, you'd share no characteristics with anyone.
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  871.  @webhead86104  What a coincidence. So am I. Perhaps though, unlike you, I had different struggles, and would have actually preferred not to have been born. That isnt what unique means, but okay. Of course you're your own person. Your experience in life is unique. But you aren't.
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  872. Party of dead Not liking sex does not mean asexual. Asexual does not exist. Aromantic? Yes. Not interested in Sex? Absolutely. I don't believe anyone is asexual.
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  873. Thomas Benedict Sex is also an act that exists for pleasure. Abortion is not murder. Please pick up a dictionary and read what the definiton if murder is. Killing and murder are not interchangeable terms in all cases. Heartbeat independently starts between 11 and 12 weeks FYI. If you can hear a heartbeat at 6 weeks, which most can't, it is the fetuses heart beginning to form and the passing of blood that will eventually form the circulatory system. That heartbeat is more the mother than the fetus. Brainstem does not develop until 15 weeks to the point sentience and pain is achieved. Rudementary nerves that will eventually become a brainstem begin forming at about 4.5 weeks. Yes, actually I do. If they have no quality of life, to me they are not living. Hell, most people would rather die than be braindead. This is why I strongly suggest making a living will, so people know exactly what you want done in case of brain death. That's why I have a DNR. To avoid that problem.
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  874. Because comdoms work 100% of the time...
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  875. No one is pro-abortion.
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  876. No, abortion terminates the development of a non-sentient fetus. Unless, of course, you're having a late term abortion.
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  877. Abortion is not murder. Thats not an opinion. Its a fact
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  878.  @afrikaanseboer7126  That doesn't fit the definition of murder. By the way, why do you people put so much emphasis on the heart and NOT the brain?
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  879.  @afrikaanseboer7126  So, since when is abortion unlawful in the US? Only Alabama has outlawed abortion on a state level, and they do not supersede the federal law.
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  880. A fetus at the time of most abortions is non-sentient. It cannot have a choice because it lacks the functions necessary to make a choice. A fetus is not a baby. Medically speaking, a baby is only such after birth. If your story is true, thats great. But your experience may not be the same as someone elses. Someone else could see that and be reminded of horrible trauma, leading them to a cycle of neglect and abuse. It is life. But that doesn't matter.
    1
  881. It is life. But that doesn't matter. Sentience is what matters. Pro-abortion would be advocating for everyone to get an abortion. That is not what pro-choice is. Pro-choice offers you all the same options pro-life does, but includes abortion should all other routes fail
    1
  882. Wow. Thats really sad for both of you. To dedicate yourself to a genocidal monster who may not even exist. By the way, did you get permission from your father/husband to post here?
    1
  883.  @TomCL-vb6xc  No, of course I think its possible. But I will not show respect to someone who does not respect me. Period. No, I'm not trying to change their point of view, because it will never change.
    1
  884.  @SydLane  Well, considering the fact that you call a fetus a baby (which it isn't) and abortion murder (which it isn't) you apparently haven't studied the topic extensively at all. Glad to know you stopp caring about people's rights.
    1
  885.  @SydLane  Glad to know you don't know pro-life doesn't just apply to abortion. Also, glad to know you don't know what the definition of murder is.
    1
  886.  @SydLane  I'm not being sarcastic. You truly don't know and its honestly sad. By the way, you've never met God. God has never been demonstrated to exist, and I am truly sorry for you that you became indoctrinated. By the way, God is pro-choice. At least according to the Bible.
    1
  887.  @painlessnote90  I don't believe in a God to begin with, so that point falls on deaf ears to me. Adam and Eve never existed. That's just a fact. There were no original 2 humans.
    1
  888.  @AMC2283  I agree.
    1
  889.  Lizzie Allen  Strawman argument. My point had to do with the original commenter implying that if you use a condom, you won't get pregnant.
    1
  890. Then you aren't pro-life. Pro-life is against abortions even in cases of medical reasons. You're still pro-choice.
    1
  891. El Rico Fairies aren't real and a fetus is not a baby. It's not saying anything because it doesn't have a brainstem to comprehend what is happening
    1
  892.  @mathildeyoung1823  So what? The fetus isn't sentient.
    1
  893. As a failed abortion, I fail to see your point.
    1
  894. That doesn't address abortion, since abortion isn't murder.
    1
  895. @Jack Daniels Not in all cases, such as abortion or self defense. No, you won't be charged with 2 murders. You'll be charged with unlawful termination of a pregnancy. You would have to meet very specific criteria to get a double homicide charge to stick.
    1
  896. @Bodhi Which isn't a double homicide. That would have been 2 counts of 1st degree murder. These 2 counts carry different sentences. And that had to meet very specific circumstances, mainly because Laci was almost 9 months pregnant. Connor would have been viable by that point, and no doctor would have performed an abortion
    1
  897. Pro-choice.
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  898. So...your vegan and have never stepped on a bug or killed a pest like a mouse?
    1
  899. The unborn fetus has no choice. It has no sentience nor rights. Period. A woman absolutely should have the right over what is going on with her uterus. Whether that be cysts, a tumor, a fetus, or what happens during childbirth. A woman should not be allowed to pressure others into doing something with themselves. This includes forced or pressured abortions and forced or pressured birth.
    1
  900. all pizzas are beautiful Most people have an abortion because they realize they can not take care of a child.
    1
  901.  @pilot6563  Why are you people so mad for us calling it what it is? I don't care what the reason is for abortion. The only people who lose sleep over it is you people. By the way, if your not against abortion for medical reasons, you aren't pro-life by definition. You're still pro-choice. And I know MANY people who are against abortion in ANY circumstance.
    1
  902.  @pilot6563  You know what else is wrong? Being content with watching innocent children be abused and neglected by unfit parents and a broken state. No one argues abortion shouldn't happen. The argument is should abortion be accessible to women who feel like there is no other option? Abortion is not convenient. Its not covered by insurance, and many people demonize you for it. Some of us feel it is a necessary evil, because we have experienced or seen the result of pregnancies when abortion wasn't allowed. Again, if you accept abortion in ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, you are not pro-life. You are pro-choice. You don't get to change the definition of words to suit your narrative. Also, are you for or against assisted suicide for the terminally ill? Because pro-life isn't.
    1
  903.  @pilot6563  Its not that it isn't human life. Its that human life is not inherently valuable. Get over it. If you care so much about ending abortion, attack the problems that cause it to occur in the first place. The people you mentioned were all sentient humans who had their own legal rights. A fetus is not.
    1
  904.  @pilot6563  Those people are the only pro-life people by definition.
    1
  905.  @pilot6563  You'll continue to also neglect the innocent lives you allow to be born, because you don't give a fuck after that. Once their born, your done. "Money being used to fund abortions" Sorry my friend, but thats against the federal law. Your taxdollars are not funding abortions. I'm glad you feel that way, but that doesn't change the fact that as of right now, we need abortion. Yes, I expect you to understand the other side, but I also expect you to be honest with your words. If you are willing to make exceptions for abortion, you are not pro-life by definition. That doesn't mean you can't be against abortion. Pro choice stands for allowing women to have their own say in whats done with their bodies, includin adoption, motherhood or abortion.
    1
  906.  @pilot6563  Ha. No they aren't. I've researched it plenty. You're not interested once its born. You're not interested in raising taxes to help fund centers. You're not interested in helping women have access to neo natal care. Most of you don't even believe in contraception. Stop bullshiting.
    1
  907. I'm a parent and pro-choice. In fact, most parents are pro-choice. The Hyde amendment prevents anyone from having their tax money fund abortions.
    1
  908. Robert Andrews Abortion is in most cases a last resort.
    1
  909. If you have an abortion done via pill, which is how most are done, there are medications you can take that may be able to reverse the effects of the pill and allow you to keep the fetus.
    1
  910. But its not pro-death. Because death isn't the first, nor only option, when you are pro-choice.
    1
  911.  Lizzie Allen  That isn't true and you know it.
    1
  912.  Lizzie Allen  Well, they're right. Contraception isn't foolproof and adoption is horribly broken. But usually, they say that to the people who believe they should be jailed for wanting an abortion. I'm sure not all people are like that, but the vast majority are.
    1
  913.  Lizzie Allen  You don't have a religion if you're an atheist.
    1
  914. H-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e
    1
  915. Pro-choice =/= Pro-Abortion Pro-Mindyourownfuckingbusiness > Pro-Hypocrisy
    1
  916. TEAM S And? I'm pro choice and my mother tried to abort me. I think that was her right. There's an issue when you have hundreds of kids who say everyday "I wish I had been aborted"
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  917. No one is pro-abortion. And some of us didn't want to be born. My mother tried to abort me. Twice.
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  918. The question shouldn't be life. It's silly to say life doesnt begin at conception. Because it does. But its not about life. It should be about sentience. Sentience should be the deciding factor in abortion. Not life.
    1
  919. Science is by no means objective or undisputeable fact. Thats one of the great things about science. Its ever changing. By the way, science is not "pro-life". Its a neutral conjection that can be used to oppose or defend both sides.
    1
  920.  @JP2GiannaT  I personally think this discussion shouldn't happen and people should mind their own business. Even if I was against abortion, I couldn't be pro-life. Because i support euthanasia.
    1
  921.  @JP2GiannaT  You can't be pro life if your pro-euthanisia. A fetus in most abortions is not sentient. It is incapable of choosing.
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  922.  @JP2GiannaT  A mentally handicapped person is sentient, so no. Senteince matters to me, not life.
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  923. Cool Beans Tell that to all the children who resent their parents for having them.
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  924. Cool Beans I take no issue with suicide. I want to help them, but if they don't want to change, there's nothing I can do for them. No, I'm pretty sure they resent their parents. Considering I work in a juvenile hall where some the kids have put their parents in the hospital or in the cemetery.
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  925. Cool Beans Their parents wouldn't have done what they did if they hadn't been guilted into not having an abortion. Yeah no shit. That's what happens when you give birth in an unhealthy environment.
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  926. Cool Beans When that's what you grow up hearing from your parents, that's what you come to believe. They wouldn't have cared if they were aborted because they lacked the capability to care. Now they don't, and suffer because of it. My point is, not everyone wants life. And you should not force life on anyone, even if you believe they deserve it.
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  927. Pain No one thinks abortion is okay. People just think you should have a right to abortion as an option. No, it's not murder and you clearly aren't intelligent enough to look up the definition of murder. Murder and killing are not interchangeable words. Congrats. Your friend was one of the lucky ones. How about the millions of children who aren't and will never be adopted? Guess what will happen to them when they turn 18? They'll be kicked out on the street with nothing. Adoption should be explored, and done if able. But some women can't afford to put the child up for adoption, nor can some adoption agencies take more children.
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  928. Pain Considering you don't know the definition of murder and you wish to take away a persons rights, I highly doubt that. Also, I never used an ad hominem. I stated a fact. This is based in the United States. Therefore, abortion is not murder. Let's not call it something it isn't.
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  929. Pain Well, I'm sorry then that in your country, your government doesnt understand science and doesn't care about people's rights. Raping and beating your wife was never a right. I will apologize for assuming you live in the United States. Once again, I never insulted you as a person, but I also apologize if you took it that way. No, I don't lack critical thinking skills. I think you should look at abortion from another perspective.
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  930. Pain Yeah, we were kind of backwards in the whole gay marriage thing. But if your country truly outlaws abortion, then i stand by my original statement. A fetus is not a baby. That's just medically and scientifically inaccurate. No, it's not murder here. And I don't believe in stripping away a sentient beings rights to her body, for a non sentient developing parasite. The US is fucked up in some regards, but it doesn't lack morals. Morality is a subjective concept anyway. Again, a fetus is not a baby. I still think you live in a country that doesn't care about people's rights. Then again, so do I. You can claim it's the leader in progressive thinking, but that's just an opinion. And no, I assumed you were from the US. The reason why it's considered a double homicide is because fetus is usually almost to term and clearly the mother wanted it. The subject of abortion should not be a matter of life. It should be a matter of sentience.
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  931. Pain Parasite: an organism that lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the host's expense. Guess what? A fetus fits that definition. It does absolutely nothing beneficial to the mother. It's physically attached to her uterus and living off of her nutrients. It doesn't even have a full body of it's own until the third trimester, well after the time for an abortion has passed. Yes, you should. If that person is not waking up, then to me, it's not living. This is why living wills are so important, so people know exactly what you want done with yourself in that situation. No, life itself has no intrinsic value. What you do with your life makes it valuable. Are you a vegan and anti death penalty? Pro choice doesn't take away anyone's rights. A fetus is not protected under the United States Constitution. You can call me evil, but I'm quite proud of what I've done with my life, including raising a good friend's sons for her because she couldn't. I don't personally believe it should be a double homicide unless the fetus was sentient, usually 15 weeks or older when it has a brainstem and nerve receptors.
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  932. Oh really? Then how about the countless verses where God orders the killing of the unborn? Sounds like you didn't read your Bible either.
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  933.  @parthenon5106  Pro-life are people who think abortion and euthanasia are inherently wrong. Pro-choice people think people should have a right to do with themselves as they will as long as they stay within the law regarding abortion and euthanasia.
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  934.  @parthenon5106  I hate to break it to you, but you clearly failed biology. That fetus is attached to you, developing its body by parasitizing you. Thats not inherently a bad thing if you can care for it. By the way, pro-life people don't value the way someone lives their life or the right for a person to die.
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  935.  @parthenon5106  Those appendages do not form until well after most abortions take place, so thats not relevant. A fetus is attached and biologically dependent on you body for a time. If you die, it dies. I am sorry the education system has failed you. But you have to. As its part of the definition. If you support the right to die, you aren't pro-life.
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  936.  @parthenon5106  You can't be wrong about moral subjectivity honey. Go back to school
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  937.  @parthenon5106  For 45 minutes? Because I was in class finishing a final. Problem?
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  938.  @parthenon5106  I have responded to ever single message I have received from you. If you got no reponse from me, then I didn't get a response from you. The last message you sent in this thread was a little over an hour ago.
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  939.  @parthenon5106  I answered that comment 9 hours ago. I advise you scroll up and learn to read.
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  940.  @parthenon5106  I didn't lie about anything
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  941.  @parthenon5106  I did. Twice. I'd be more than happy to send you screenshots of the posts.
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  942.  @parthenon5106  As I said. I would be more than happy to send you screenshots. I see them just fine. Here were the two posts: I am telling you a fetus is BIOLOGICALLY DEPENDANT on a woman's body. It is ATTACHED to her and develops its OWN body by parasitizing her. You've stated in multiple other comments that you are pro-life.
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  943.  @parthenon5106  There. Edited
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  944.  @parthenon5106  I literally just copied and pasted what I had written in a comment earlier. And you're simply wrong. The fetus is ATTACHED to the woman's body and is DEVELOPING a seperate from by STEALING nutrients from the mother. You're either pro life or your pro choice. Which is it?
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  945.  @parthenon5106  Once again, its not a lie. Either you can't read and refuse to see it or YouTube won't allow you too. Like I said, I would be more than happy to provide screenshots. Because you continue to claim that a fetus is independent from the mother. Its not. Even late term, its not. Stop being intellectually dishonest. You cannot be both. You either believe abortion and euthanasia should be illegal in all circumstances or you believe people have a choice. I see the effects every day of what happens to unwanted children that are forced to be born to unfit mothers. Perhaps if you heard children screaming every day "I wish I had been aborted", you'd gain a different perspective.
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  946.  @parthenon5106  Stop saying I'm lying when I've said multiple times I'd be willing to send you evidence that I did indeed answer you. Sorry YouTube isn't giving you the notifications.
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  947.  @parthenon5106  Literally comment to any other person, and they will tell you. I can see the comments you claim you cannot see that I posted a week ago just fine. I suspect it is you who is lying, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. By the way, I have yet to give you that evidence. If you have a discord or skype, I will send you a screenshot of the comments you say I never posted from a week ago.
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  948.  @parthenon5106  Then do not call me a liar. Period.
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  949.  @parthenon5106  Never once did I lie
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  950. Ben Shapiro is a lying vindictive moron who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about most of the time.
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  951.  @thanamesny7807  But it is.
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  952. So what if they happen in rare situations? They still occur. And yes, it is still my body. The fetus is a non-sentient parasite stealing vital nutrients from me until it develops enough to support itself biologically. So until that time, it is entirely my choice what to do with it.
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  953.  @annon3485  a fetus is a parasite for a time. I didnt say that was necessarily a bad thing. Also no. It has started to develop the nerve receptors that will become its CNS, but has not yet developed a brainstem needed to register pain. That does not develop until between 10 and 12 weeks. Go ahead and stop responding. Most people do. It is not my fault that you cant be bothered to take a biology or anatomy class.
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  954. Brandy B That is a bold faced lie. Pro choicers try to encourage everything before abortion.
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  955. bandoned_ boy Then you're an idiot who cannot be reasoned with. Most abortions occur with a woman on her first pregnancy and her first sexual experience. Yes, some women will abort simply because they don't want it. That is a slim minority. A majority of women do not have the emotional, financial or physical capability of handling a new life, because they struggle just managing themselves.
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  956. bandoned_ boy Considering that some men can't use condoms and some women can't take the pill, you proved my original argument.
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  957.  @susansanborn5686  There's nothing wrong with my grammar and I apologize that my phone takes out apostrophes. By the way, don't insult someone's grammar and punctuation when you don't follow through. A fetus is an underdeveloped unborn child. So what? It isn't sentient, and that is the issue.
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  958. Sky's the limit And I agree with that. But once again, that doesn't mean abortion shouldn't be a last resort option.
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  959. The education system has failed you.
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  960.  @journeyfortwo5211  You educate yourself. Learn what murder is and the difference between killing and murder.
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  961. The problem is the responsibility of having sex and the responsibility of raising a child are NOT equal and CANNOT be treated as such. Telling someone not to have sex doesn't work. Your body WANTS sex. It's a way for your body to stay HEALTHY. Yes, you should take precautions. Yes, you should try to stay abstinent if you can. But that is not always done. A fetus cannot make a choice. It LACKS the capability to do so. If that fetus is biologically dependant on me for survival, then it is MY choice what happens to it until it is no longer biologically dependent on me. We already do. You aren't treating the cause by doing that. But you don't want to pay more in tax dollars to go to fund parenting classes, health care or neo natal care for mothers.
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  962. Someone doesn't know what the definition of murder is.
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  963.  Lizzie Allen  Good thing abortion isn't murder then.
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  964. And forcing an unfit mother to raise a child is responsible? What planet do you live on?
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  965.  @layneschweg  Sex is a natural desire. I completely agree that precautions should be taken, but if they aren't and a pregnancy happens that its unavoidable. Abortion is just as much "facing the consequences" as all other methods, albeit the last one that should be used.
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  966. Protection is important. But it fails.
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  967. A. That's the mothers doing, not the fetuses. The heartbeat is very rare found in only a few weeks, because the heart doesn't even fully form until 4 weeks. That heartbeat is controlled by the mother. B. Its not about life. You dont nbn give a shit about life. It's about sentience. C. You lack the understanding of what murder is. Murder is unlawful. Abortion is not until a certain point. Therefore abortion is not murder. That's a fact, not an opinion.
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  968.  @blaecccuebbler7711  A baby is post utero. A member of the human species becomes a person when sentience is achieved. That's how we define personhood. It doesn't have to put itself in the uterus because consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. A fetus is alive/human (if talking about a pregnant homosapaian) from conception. A fetus is a person when sentience is achieved. A fetus is a baby after birth.
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  969. @Eddie Davies A fetus does not exist without a uterus. They don't have to be the same thing. One is dependent on the either for that "life". And that dependency is DEPENDANT on someone else.
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  970. @Eddie Davies Strawman argument. Taking the risk doesn't negate your right to autonomy.
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  971. The question shouldn't be "is abortion wrong" because that is subjective to your personal belief. The question should be "what should the legality of abortion be"
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  972.  @christianjilwan8817  Murder is a legal term. It is not always interchangeable with "killing". A fetus is neither medically nor legally a person. Yes, it is human life from the moment of conception. But it lack personhood, because it lacks sentience. It is killing. It just isn't murder.
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  973. There is no excuse for wanting to take away bodily autonomy from women and the right to die from people. That is unacceptable, and there is no reason to try to understand it. Period.
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  974.  @emmanguyen2670  I am not going to try to understand a person's perspectives that wants to strip someone's rights away. Would you try to find common ground with a slave owner? How about an animal abuser? How about a bigot or a racist? No. You would tell them why their ideas are toxic and would move on.
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  975. Fetuses don't care about anything, since they lacked a brain when they were aborted. By the way, if you are making this a moral issue, there really are no facts. Its how you feel. We can look at what science says, but that doesn't determine our morals.
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  976. Good thing abortion isnt murder then.
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  977.  @yigglyyetard3043  Perhaps in your subjective opinion. But no. We can't all agree on that. Life means nothing to me, nor does it mean anything to humans. What matters to us is sentience, the ability to think and feel. "Genetically unique" is not being used properly. Unless you have a mutation, your DNA is still a combination of your parents. You could use the colloquial definition of unique, but you still are gentically similar to thousands of others. Sorry, I dont ascribe to that belief.
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  978.  @katie323  I wouldn't be. I can't speak for others.
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  979.  @katie323  That isnt how a majority of abortions are performed, so that just shows how uneducated you are on the subject. But that would depend on the senteince of the pup.
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  980.  @katie323  You can. That doesnt mean people do. Surgical abortions are rarely performed anymore. No, and by the way, that law was struck down in court, but only by one vote. Once a fetus gains sentience, I believe abortion should be off the table.
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  981.  @katie323  I'm sure it is. Once again, just because people do it does not make it the majority. That is all I'm saying. That would make you a hypocrite. If you really believe that fetus is innocent, its innocent no matter what. Why does a rape baby not deserve the same chance as a person who willingly had sex, but cant handle a child? Classifying it as a double homicide is only if the woman is 5 months along or farther under federal law.
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  982.  @katie323  Why is her life more important? That's just hypocritical. That fetus didn't ask to be conceived anymore than she asked to be raped. Regardless of how old you are, you should be allowed to have a choice in what is best for you. You really think its convenient to have an abortion? How? A child also should be raised in a neglectful environment because some people think it's a better alternative than never living at all. No, the difference between myself and a fetus is sentience.
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  983. Not when it comes to pregnancy. But they absolutely should be part of the conversation.
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  984. Its not about life. It's about sentience. If you have ever killed a bug, hunted, or are not vegan, you don't give a damn about life. So quit pretending life matters. A fetus is life. But it is not sentient life until a certain point.
    1
  985.  @dandylion2837  And why is that? I dont believe any life is worth more than anything else. In fact, based on the horrible things humans have done, I'm of the opinion we're worth less.
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  986.  @dandylion2837  There are no differences between me and my pets other than species. Why is their life any less valuable than mine?
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  987. As a failed abortion, I wouldn't have cared, because I lacked the capability to feel. You cannot feel or care if you are not sentient.
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  988.  Lizzie Allen  I don't believe in God so no.
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  989.  Lizzie Allen  No its not.
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  990.  @ethanm.2411  Because he actively supports abortion in the Bible.
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  991. Most pro-choicers are also against late term abortions.
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  992. How is giving birth to a child you cannot care for responsible?
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  993. Glad your mom was able to get her life together. Not all people can do that. So what about when contraception fails? Should they have a right to abort? You're sorely mistaken if you think abortion is "the easy way out". Let me guess, suicide is the easy way out too?
    1
  994.  @bosnia7429  Except that still wouldn't be accurate, but personally? I'd take death over neglect.
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  995.  @ethanm.2411  You know I meant safe for the mother. Human beings die. Its a fact of life. Some die sooner than others. Some die before they get a chance at life. Deal with reality.
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  996.  @ethanm.2411  Last I checked, the uterus is my organ. I don't care what its function is. No one is entitled to it without my permission. You don't need both kidneys. Should I be entitled to one of yours just because mine aren't functioning properly? No.
    1
  997.  @ethanm.2411  It doesn't matter what its purpose is. A fetus is not entitled to it. Period. You are not entitled to someone else's organ, even if that organ's sole purpose is for you. You just said it. I POSSESS the organ. It is MINE. Therefore, the only person that gets a say to what happens with it is ME. Not my husband. Not a doctor. Not a fetus.
    1
  998.  @ethanm.2411  The United States Constitution. I have the right to MY organs and MY body. And no one else gets to decide what is done with those organs without my consent.
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  999.  @ethanm.2411  Last I checked, the Constitution also protected the right to liberty and the right to bodily autonomy. Last I also checked, the government nor the Supreme Court recognizes a fetus as a person until after a certain point, therefore theg have no rights. I have every right to get rid of an invasive parasite if I do not consent to it and it is using my body in any way. You can have your own beliefs. Don't have an abortion if you don't like it.
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  1000.  @ethanm.2411  Umm no. That is absolutely not true. The Constitution literally states that "these rights are equal". They are all just as important as each other. The right to life is also nullified if it encroaches on another's life to liberty (such as abortion, blood donation and organ donation). If I need a kidney to survive, I have no right to take one from someone else without their express consent. It doesn't matter that I'll die without it. Fortunately, your opinion doesn't matter. The law does not extend rights to a non-sentient fetus. Human rights aren't natural. They're imposed by a government. Nature doesn't care if we live or die. Morality is subjective, and my morality is that a person should never be forced into a situation they cannot handle. What gives you to moral right to force a woman into that situation. If we're being practical, it is a parasite. It feeds off its host (mother) while doing nothing beneficial to her and damaging her in the process, which is why neonatal care is so important. Do you get pissy at a doctor who performs a slow code or a DNR? Aren't those a matter of life and death?
    1
  1001.  @ethanm.2411  If you'd wager money on that, thats a bet you would absolutely lose. Might I suggest taking a collegate level history class. Yes. Yes it is. You are under no obligation to save someone's life at the expense of your liberty or limb. No one can force you to donate blood or an organ to save someone who is dying. Actually, yes it is. If all life is so precious, then you should be required to save it if you can, even if it means taking from someone else. You claim life is above all else right? The right to liberty never takes a back seat. Its equal. Always. Thats why the Supreme Court have always upheld the right to abortion. Your strawmanning. Again, a fetus has no rights, whether or not we think it should. 1. Yes. It is only subjectively true that rape is wrong. That is not a universal opinion. You can have a subjective moral framework and then have objective moral actions that either tear down or enforce that framework. But its still subjective. 2. Neither of our opinions matter in the grand picture. We live in a society dictated by a government. So yes, their opinions matter, even when we don't agree with them. The govern our society. 3. In my opinion? No. But thats just my subjective morality. 4. I am a realistic secular agnostic atheist. 5. You shouldn't. 6. I don't view abortion as an ethical issue. I've said to you in past debates that I could grant you abortion being immoral. All I care about is that it remains legal. Because its a legal necessity at this point. Abortion is a legal issue for me.
    1
  1002.  @myrononeal3961  Except its not, as it doesn't fit the definition of murder.
    1
  1003. Tell that to the 44,000 children waiting to be adopted and are currently being neglected.
    1
  1004. @Ankh There is no reasoning with someone who can't see things from others perspective.
    1
  1005. @Ankh I have a conscious. I don't believe abortion is wrong. So your statement isn't fact. It's your opinion.
    1
  1006. @Ankh Fact: thing that is known or proved to be true. You cannot "prove" morality. Because it is a subjective concept. So no, it is just "your opinion". You certainly have valid reasons for that opinion, as I have for mine. I'm wrong in your opinion. But you cannot prove I'm wrong in any objective sense. I won't correct something I do not think is wrong. And that means I will continue to stand for the rights of pregnant people and the dying.
    1
  1007. Andddd that makes you a hypocrite.
    1
  1008.  @d.j.wellington  Let me just step in. Abortion isn't murder for 1 reason. And thats because it doesn't fit under the definition of murder. An embryo is human. Fine. I'll grant you that. Then I can pose to you the burning building scenario, and by that stance, you would be a monster no matter what decision you made.
    1
  1009.  @d.j.wellington  No, I'm an atheist.
    1
  1010.  @d.j.wellington  That depends on your perception. I would say abortion is never ideal. And that it should be avoided if possible. But its a right, and I think the solution to less abortion is to provide help and education to young people. Do I think its wrong? No. Not if you make a careful decision about it.
    1
  1011.  @d.j.wellington  I think that whenever you feel its necessary. I tend to have faith in people making good judgments about themselves. I can only speak for myself and how I felt when I had to abort my first child.
    1
  1012.  @d.j.wellington  There are times when abortion is necessary. Cases of incest, rape, ectopic pregnancies, fetal problems, or problems with the mother. You are talking to someone who lived a miserable life because her mother and the state was neglectful and abusive. You're talking to someone who wishes her mother had aborted her. Someone who will never be able to live a normal life. So you'll have to excuse my view. Most of the abortions that take place are done because all that child would experience is abuse, neglect, abandonment and in some cases, death. Death when they can actually feel and are sentien and sapient. That's not okay.
    1
  1013.  @d.j.wellington  Perhaps in your view they aren't good reasons. But the decision is not yours to make. I believe you meant "adoption" instead of "abortion" but thats a broken system as well. There's no guarantee of that child living a stable healthy life. Life may be important to you, but again, that is not universal. I don't think life holds any inherent value. So my views naturally would not align with yours. I think liberty is just as important. Yeah, it is. And I've attempted in the past. I'm also a person who takes no issue with suicide or euthanasia. People should have a right to die if they are not happy. Its wrong to force someone to live for your happiness. Again, I think you mean adoption. And no it doesn't. That leaves still a financial burden on the mother and some adoption agencies are so full, they will not accept new children. 44,000 are currently waiting and more than half will never be adopted. What happens then? Its fine.
    1
  1014. Except we're not a theocracy. We live by secular laws. Ones that have been deemed moral by the majority. And we have rights, one of those being liberty. Life is equal, not above.
    1
  1015.  @AjaxNixon  No they aren't. Don't have an abortion if you don't agree to it. You aren't being forced to support abortion.
    1
  1016.  @liamturman  A fetus development is killed or terminated, yes. And?
    1
  1017. Abortion is not a moral issue and arguing from morality is a fallacy that gets you nowhere. Morality is subjective. You cannot compare abortion to rape, murder or slavery because they are incompatible. Abortion is a legal issue. I could grant a fetus personhood. I could grant that its living. And I can still argue from pro-choice. There are things far worse than death.
    1
  1018. Sex is a natural act performed for more than just procreation. You should try to find someone who can, but that option is not always available. Abortion is not a cop out any more than suicide is. You know what's not accepting responsibility? Birthing a child you inevitably neglect because you cannot care for it. The fetus can't make a choice because it lacks sentience. Abortion is not at all convenient. Also, supporting abortion in one instance and not the other makes you a hypocrite.
    1
  1019.  Lizzie Allen  You never have to sample all subjects to get data. I'm basing it on what we have no. Abortions are individual. Perhaps where you live or what you read, that is true. I see far more women regret having to have an abortion, but maintain they made the right decision. Myself included. Never have I met someone who has said abortion is the best thing they ever did. And you know that wasn't what I was saying
    1
  1020. Unintelligent Individual It is living. It is just not sentient. That's the difference
    1
  1021. Unintelligent Individual Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive and experience subjectively. Nothing is "morally relevant" because everyone's sense of morality is different. But it's why people are pro-choice. I would rather a fetus be aborted than be born to a household that will abuse and neglect it.
    1
  1022. Josh No abortion is not murder. Killing a potential life, yes. But not murder. Murder and Killing are not the same thing.
    1
  1023. And what exactly makes the act unethical? Your subjective opinion? Why should that matter to anyone other than you?
    1
  1024. Because they broke the state laws concerning a legal abortion dumbass.
    1
  1025. Someone doesnt understand what the definition of murder.
    1
  1026. Krystal Mayes Well then I, personally, think you're a hypocrite. I argue the humans are less valuable then most other creatures. We cause war and destruction. Before it's sentient? Yes. I'd rather see a non sentient fetus be aborted than watch another news story of a mother who beat her child to death because she could not raise it.
    1
  1027. Krystal Mayes I personally feel like putting life on a pedastal in any aspect, but then being upset with people for doing the same makes you a hypocrite. However, I don't think that's a bad thing. Everyone is a hypocrite in something. The difference is the fetus isn't sentient whereas the child that is abused and neglected is. To me, abortion isn't about life. It's about sentience. You can say that does not justify killing a fetus. I could say you liking the taste of meat does not justify killing a cow. We all have our own opinions. That depends. If there's a certain chance the person would wake up, then I would say no. However, I'm all for pulling the plug on life support. I don't believe that's living, and I advocate for having a living will and power of attorney so those decisions are your own. As for whether or not there has been studies, I do think it would help. I'm not sure there's any statistical data. I only know my personal anecdotes.
    1
  1028.  @queenofhearts7503  At the time of 96% of abortions, a fetus cannot feel pain, as it has no brainstem to process signals from its developing nervous system. So no. It doesn't care.
    1
  1029. And those people are called pro-choice.
    1
  1030.  @ethanm.2411  There is no moral argument to be had. No one denies abortion is terrible. The question is whether its necessary at this point.
    1
  1031.  @ethanm.2411  No. Slavery was never necessary. It was enacted because the Bible gave you the right to own other people. Women have a right to an abortion. They have a right to liberty. Slavery involves sentient humans with rights. Abortion does not.
    1
  1032. Its amazing the amount of absolute idiots that don't understand what words mean.
    1
  1033.  @justanothercommenter618  I do. That's why I know abortion isn't murder.
    1
  1034. As if we would have chosen to not be aborted if we could have made that choice.
    1
  1035. @Humanity Galatica Absolutely. I'd, honestly, had offed myself if you weren't treated like absolute monsters for attempting and failing.
    1
  1036. Why do you place so much value on the heartbeat instead of the brain? I'm just curious.
    1
  1037. So in other words "be a hypocrite and deny a certain women rights". Yeah okay. Then when that child is abused or neglected, you should be held personally responsible.
    1
  1038.  @MasterhpIke  If you preach against abortions, but allow certain circumstances for abortion, you are being a hypocrite. You aren't practicing what you preach. No, they won't. You people have this fixation on the belief that a woman jumps to an abortion as an out. As a first choice. The fact remains that that isnt true. Abortions are often a reaction to a sudden change, or the last resort after weeks of thinking. If your "friend" really said that, than he is either one of the small percent who actually doesn't care or, more than likely, he was being sarcastic. Absoutely they can. But a majority of child abuse cases come from unfit mothers who were not allowed abortions.
    1
  1039. Someone doesn't know what the definition of murder is.
    1
  1040. Pro life people always bitch about abortion, but never consider the life the child will have or consider adopting or fostering children. You're just fucking hypocrites who are pro life until its convenient.
    1
  1041. Infertility is not a risk with abortion. That has been continuously disproven. Sure, you can hemorrhage during a surgical abortion (which is rare) but you can also hemorrhage during birth.
    1
  1042.  @lushiscat  Infertility happens naturally aa you get older. There is no correlation between abortion and your fertility rate.
    1
  1043. Why do you place value on heartbeat instead of brain activity?
    1
  1044. It also makes no sense since the Bible condones abortion
    1
  1045. Mathilde Young Yes they have, and that's wrong. Yes, the kid fell in the cage, because the parents weren't paying attention to it. A fetus is prenatal human, and is medically not considered a baby until after it is born. and abortions do not happen for convenience. It's sad if you honestly believe that.
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  1046. Mathilde Young There are many scientists that argue that it is not a human being until it's born. Now, I personally do not believe this. If it's got human DNA, then in my opinion, it's a human being. That's not the point. No there actually aren't. Adoption has been in decline since 2005. You know why? Because it's cheaper to have your own children then to go through the long drawn out process of adoption. A toddler is a sentient being. A fetus is not. Get that through your head. I never said I didn't believe a fetus is a human being. But that doesn't mean I don't see why people have an abortion. If you really want to end abortion, treat the causes of the reasons for abortion.
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  1047. Mathilde Young So a biased 7 year old article with no stastical data is your evidence? Try again. If that were really true, adoption agencies wouldn't be so overcrowed. No, it's all about sentience. You can say it's not a good excuse, but the law is not on your side. You're not pro life. You're pro birth. No one is pro abortion. You know how I know adoption agencies turn children away? Because I took in a friend's 2 children who couldn't care for them because the adoption agency turned her away. If a fetus should have rights, so should farm animals so everyone should be vegan. There are no "pro-life" laws other than you can't have an abortion after a certain period. Nor has abortion rate gone down. Abortion happens because of economic problems, mental illness, and physical issues that prevent a woman from raising a child. When you force a woman who is unfit to birth a child she can't handle, she will come to resent, abuse and neglect it. You wont save children by outlawing abortion.
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  1048. Mathilde Young And then watch the adoption agency say. "I'm sorry. We don't have the space necessary to take in your baby. Look into a private adoption"
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  1049. Because a fetus isnt a baby. It is not sentient and depends biologically on the mother until it gains sentience.
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  1050.  @angelac5769  I dont care if you have a different opinion than me. That's fine. But understand where we are coming from on the opposite side.
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  1051.  @angelac5769  I'm not disrespecting your opinion either. I merely showed you the other side of the coin
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  1052.  @mathildeyoung1823  Its not discrimination. You aren't aborting them based on them. You are aborting them because you are unfit to care for them.
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  1053.  @angelac5769  I can understand the sentiment and believe adoption should be looked into, but it doesn't work like that. You cant just hand your child over to a random family. It's a legal process, and it's expensive. Theres also no guarantee the child will ever be adopted.
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  1054. Because the fetus is not guilty of the crime of which the condemned is being executed for.
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  1055.  @davidhernandez-sr9hg  Its almost like you think that its the parents fault the fetus can't live outside the womb.
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  1056.  @danedds1068  Yeah, lets pretend thats how most abortions happen. Or pretend abortion is all Planned Parenthood does. Has nothing to do with morality. I could grant you the premise that abortion is immoral, and still argue for its legality. We don't outlaw murder because its wrong. We outlaw murder because it violates a right that the government upholds.
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  1057.  @danedds1068  I don't think its immoral to do either of those things.
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  1058.  @davidhernandez-sr9hg  Its not my fault a fetus cannot live without my uterus. So until that time, it will always be my right. Just as it is your right to deny me a kidney, even if it saves my life. Bodily autonomy is a protected liberty. When a fetus can live and develop without the use of a mother's womb, I will then stand against abortion.
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  1059.  @danedds1068  You asked the question why this is the case. I gave you the answer based on the legal context. I don't argue/debate from morality. Because everyone's views are, if even minorly, different. I think our differences come from you, looking at abortion from a moral standpoint, and me, looking at abortion from a legal standpoint. And yes, they should be, if the mother wantes to carry that child to term. Because that would be a violation of her rights. The reason we have abortion is because its a right enshrined in the Constitution. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy, and you have the right to liberty. That means deciding what happens with and inside your body.
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  1060. Sandra Mackin And what happens when that agency turns away your child because there's no room? Adoption should definitely be looked into, but it is not the only option and sometimes is worse than abortion.
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  1061.  @Emmie-p8x  I'm okay with a mother killing/terminating a fetus, yes. So long as thats a decision made carefully.
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  1062. Abortion does deal with the consequences, just as motherhood and adoption does. They shouldn't. Just as you shouldn't be forced to give me a kidney just because I need one. And again, abortion is taking responsibility. Its recognizing you are too immature and inexperienced to properly care for a child.
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  1063.  @pilot6563  Abortion is taking responsibility. You still have to deal with the consequences of your decision, which amount to financial loss and sometimes social rejection. So no. Its not getting rid of the problem. Fact is, 31% of children who are currently in foster care have been there since birth-6 months. So where were all the parents then? And by the way, if you wanted a child so badly, why wouldn't you adopt anyone? Why does it HAVE to be a newborn? Why should children suffer and die because they don't fit your "ideal vision?" It really doesn't matter. This isn't even a moral issue. Its a legal one
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  1064. 1989clh A fetus is always a health risk.
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  1065. 1989clh No, in all cases. Why do you think neo natal care is so important? If you don't get the proper care, you will die. Don't be a hypocrite. Either you think all women should be able to have an abortion, or no one should.
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  1066. 1989clh If a woman does not get neo natal care, she will die. That is just a fact, and it's why it's so stressed. She's being parasitized until that fetus is able to begin to function on its own. Also, please learn to speak English so people can actually understand you.
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  1067. 1989clh Your grammar and punctuation is atrocious. https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/maternalinfanthealth/pregnancy-relatedmortality.htm The cdc stresses the importance of getting proper neo natal care. Without it, you will not be able to adequately care for yourself, which in turn causes problems for the fetus. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/14601260/ Death of newborns and stillbirths are caused by improper access to neonatal care
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  1068. 1989clh So it's very clear to me you didn't read both links and expect you can just get pregnant and just do whatever you usually do an expect the child and mother to be fine.
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  1069. 1989clh it's not a lie. I literally don't know a single woman who didn't have some form of care, no matter how primitive. Infant mortality rates and death during childbirth were so high in the old days because of lack of proper care
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  1070. 1989clh Primitive neonatal care I assumed was implied. Just because some women choose a midwife doesn't mean they never see a doctor. If you didn't see a doctor, you would dramatically increase your risk of complications. None of this was even the original point. Your original point was that you sympathize with those who choose abortions because complications may arise. That's quite a chunk of abortions.
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  1071. 1989clh *You're. Okay, so then you're a hypocrite. Question. Do you believe you would save unborn children by banning abortion?
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  1072. 1989clh Could you learn to use basic punctuation? No, it's a curious one. You believe the only time a woman has a right to her own body and what goes on with it is when her life is in imminent danger, which is not the impression I got but I digress. So what would you like to see happen? Would you like to see a ban on abortion? I'm trying to have a logical debate with you.
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  1073. @TheBookWorm1718 A week old baby is sentient and has rights. A fetus is not sentient and does not have rights until it gains sentience.
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  1074. Weston Euler It becomes a baby, medically, when it's born. Technically it's human life always. The argument for or against abortion is about sentience, not life. A heartbeat that actually comes from the fetus itself, independent of its mother, usually begins at between 11 and 12 weeks.
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  1075. Most abortions take place before the brainstem is developed, therefore before the fetus can feel pain. No, abortion is not murder, because it doesn't fit the definition of murder.
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  1076. No it isn't, at least not in most states.
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  1077.  @ubaldoh1299  You said abortion is murder. No it isn't. Thats not an opinion. Except where outlawed, abortion is not murder.
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  1078. And you will without the proper care. One of the reasons infant mortality rate and death in childbirth and pregnancy is so high in underdeveloped nations and was in the middle ages
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  1079.  @bigmacwithoutcheese8851  I do care about infants. That's why I'm pro choice. Because I'm tired of seeing them systematically neglect and abused, ultimately dying anyways, because their mother cannot care for them.
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  1080.  @Layla-dr4oc  What makes you think they go on to be amazing people? Some certainly do. Others are miserable for life. Others are just average. You can't miss something you never had. Fetuses DO NOT have the right to life, from a legal perspective. Morally, I grant you they do. But your right to life cannot come at the expense of another's right to liberty. These rights are EQUAL. Without a brain, you cannot make a choice. Without sentience, you have no personhood. That is why abortion is legal, regardless of the moral aspects of abortion. Again, a fetus is not a child. It has no legal right to life. Morally, we could argue all day. But that is the law (in the US at least). The government decides who has rights, not nature.
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  1081. Here's my answer: It doesn't matter. Life is irrelevant. Humans do not care about life. Its sentience that matters to them. A persons rights stop where anothers begin and vice versa.
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  1082. @douglas carpenter I'm not being dishonest. I'll argue that life does begin at conception. I can't take an organ from you without your consent simply because I have a right to life. That would be putting my rights above yours. Also, from a strictly legal perspective, a fetus has no rights.
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  1083.  @ethanm.2411  Murder is, once again, a legal term. No matter which side of the spectrum you fall on, abortion will never be murder until its outlawed. Everything I said is true. You eat meat. You step on bugs. You probably support the death penalty. You don't care about life. Exactly what I said. A fetuses right to life (which legally it doesn't even have) stop at the uterine wall. It does not infringe on the mother's right to liberty. One is not above the other. I view abortion less as a moral issue and more as a legal one.
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  1084.  @ethanm.2411  This conversation can't continue because you don't agree with the established definition of objective morality.
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  1085.  @ethanm.2411  You can literally just google the definition of objective morality. But sort of like your religion, no one seems to agree on it.
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  1086.  @ethanm.2411  No one should be a moral objectivist. Because morality has always been influenced by culture and time. There is no such thing as an objective moral fact. Nature cannot tell you what is moral. Your morals cannot be seperated from your emotions. You cannot prove why torturing a child is wrong without emotion.
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  1087.  @ethanm.2411  I'd like evidence of that. Because I love reading up about philosophy and know of 0 moral objectivists. Not saying they don't exist. You're the one who has to prove that morals are objective. And as far as atheism is concerned, I am an atheist. And I am more of a moral person than many Christians I know, and am certainly more moral than your God.
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  1088.  @ethanm.2411  You also made the positive claim that morals are objective. So if anything, both of us would need to provide evidence. I can turn to psychology and what analysis of a human brain tells us. Let me rephrase that. I'm more moral than the God portrayed in the Bible. If this is an accurate representation of your God, then he is certainly not omnibenevolent. I don't think my morals are superior. And I absolutely could grant that in a debate setting. Do I actually believe that abortion is immoral? No. Fun fact: Neither does your God.
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  1089.  @blaecccuebbler7711  Look at it for yourself. Most of suicide and crime statistics show that a large proportion of them lived in foster care for extended periods of time. But let me guess. Those statistics aren't valid because they support abortion right? I was adopted and I wish I had been aborted.
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  1090.  @Itsalexandraelizabeth  Then you're a hypocrite who pretends to care about the fetus when you only care about punishment for the mother.
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  1091.  @Itsalexandraelizabeth  Because you support abortion in some instances and demonize it in others. You can't have it both ways. Either abortion is okay in any circumstance, or its not okay at all.
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  1092. Having safe sex does not guarantee you won't get pregnant. Adoption is not free nor is it always an option. It's not that hard to accurately predict the future of your offspring if you cannot even care for yourself. Explore all other options before getting an abortion. But don't bring a child into the world you cannot care for. I'm sick of hearing children scream "I want to die" and "I wish I had been aborted".
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  1093. Anecdotal evidence is not an argument. Perhaps you were able to raise him, but many people cannot. And they should have the right to abort a non-sentient fetus. Saying there is hope for every child is naive and unrealistic.
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  1094.  @paulselberg9503  I never said there is no hope for a child. I said the likelihood of it living a, what we consider, normal life is lower than those of a child raised in a loving household. That is evidenced by our prison system. There are family's willing to take in children. But there are many more children than familes that can raise them, especially older children. You can stastically measure an outcome based on passed results. A majority of children raised in foster care do not live happy lives. That is not to say it can't and doesn't happen, and should not be the sole basis of an abortion. "Over 99 percent of abortions are for convenience" is an absolute lie. It is never convient to abort. It carries a lifetime stigma and is expensive
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  1095. So what about people who can't take contraception or when it fails?
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  1096. Michelle Rukny Abstinence defies human nature. People want to have sex. Scientifically and medically, a fetus is not a child. It's hard to come to terms with something that fundamentally isn't true. A fetus is a potential for life. However, for a time, it is a parasite, completely dependant on its mother. And if that mother is unfit, better to abort when it is not sentient than abuse and neglect when it is.
    1
  1097.  @ethanm.2411  Because the collective (and our laws) felt that it was wrong. Its that simple. And no. They as individuals felt as if what they were doing was right. I don't know how much I have to tell you that objective right and wrong do not exist. I can't prove to you morality or abstract concepts like value. You can only prove things in math. If someone places no value on something, then to that individual, Asians would have no value. The doesn't stop them from being protected under the Constitution. I legitimately know people who think I have no value because I'm a disabled woman.
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  1098. @i think im schizophrenic No, not really. Having organic cells that are dividing is the definition of life. Plants are alive but have no heartbeat.
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  1099. Depends on who you ask
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  1100.  Lizzie Allen  Unloved kids and also go on to be very violent and abusive parents. That scenario is generally more likely. A dead child also can't ever do that.
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  1101. Depends on where you live. Murder, by definition, must be unlawful. So if abortion is not unlawful, it cannot be murder. Killing is not always murder.
    1
  1102. Not sure how its convenient in any way, nor how its selfish to realize you are an unfit parent.
    1
  1103.  @voicevitality7197  I don't know anyone who feels "unfit" when they have a child. Unprepared is the word you're looking for. Its not selfish to realize you cannot properly care for a child and have an abortion. But thats my opinion.
    1
  1104.  @voicevitality7197  You're putting your needs over a non-sentient fetus's development.
    1
  1105.  @voicevitality7197  Actually, no its not sentient at the time of most abortions. Since when do we use words by their latin meanings?
    1
  1106.  @voicevitality7197  I never said it wasn't human. It is. It's not a baby. Its a fetus. Baby is post utero. Words do have meaning. The meaning of fetus is "the unborn offspring of any mammal". Baby and child are words only used for humans. Most languages take some roots from Latin.
    1
  1107.  @voicevitality7197  I didn't destroy my argument though.
    1
  1108.  @voicevitality7197  Its not a baby because a baby must be out of utero. If its concieved by two humans then yes, it is a human. Why is this so hard to comprehend? And besides, being human has nothing to do with my support of abortion.
    1
  1109.  @voicevitality7197  Just because you can't justify it, doesn't mean I can't. And SCOTUS agrees with me.
    1
  1110.  @voicevitality7197  I justify it just fine. Its a necessity at this point in time. Not to mention a right
    1
  1111.  @voicevitality7197  They never will, so it doesn't matter.
    1
  1112.  @voicevitality7197  Its not. But abortion isn't murder, so...
    1
  1113.  @voicevitality7197  I didn't. You are. Because you are excluding the word unlawful. By the way, another problem, a fetus isn't a person.
    1
  1114.  @voicevitality7197  No, actually its not. Its a human in terms of physiology. That doesn't make it a person
    1
  1115.  @voicevitality7197  If they fit the the description of "person".
    1
  1116. @Rick Walgreen There is, but it works both ways and it just depends on how shitty your boss is.
    1
  1117. @Rick Walgreen He's trying to say that abortion has to do with a women's body, therefore the man has no ultimately no say
    1
  1118.  @blaecccuebbler7711  Rights don't begin until whatever the law of the country says. Natural rights do not exist.
    1
  1119. Depends on who you ask
    1
  1120.  @kylelipp3170  No. I make that choice for myself. But thats not the issue.
    1
  1121.  @SydLane  I can make that choice for a fetus that is using my uterus and violating my right to bodiky autonomy. No, there is no such thing as a pain free life. But theree's a difference between a painful life and a torturous life. Its certainly possible to predict through education what kind of life a person will have based on parental situation. My point is that death is not the worst thing, yet both of you treat it as if it is.
    1
  1122.  @kylelipp3170  No, its not. I make the decision for my body and anything that goes on inside it barring infringing on rights.
    1
  1123.  Lizzie Allen  And never once did I say that I agree with that. If you're doing drugs in your own home, thats none of my business
    1
  1124.  Lizzie Allen  Taking drugs isn't illegal. Selling and possessing them is. Thats why its called "possession with intent to distribute".
    1
  1125.  @jenpetersen6671  A non sentient parasitic being.
    1
  1126.  @blaecccuebbler7711  Nope. Pro-life: opposing abortion and euthanasia. Period. End of story. If you don't oppose abortion in all circumstances, then you don't oppose it, and are therefore not pro-life. When your belief's go against facts and definitions, its a problem. Its like calling abortion "murder". Its not what the word means. You can literally say "I'm against abortion in nearly all cases." Don't call it something it isn't.
    1
  1127.  @blaecccuebbler7711  I don't have an ego at all. Quite the opposite. In real life, I suffer with self worth issues, but that's not the point. I don't care what people's beliefs are. I care about people changing the definitions of words to suit their narrative. This even applies to people I agree with. It doesn't matter what they consider themselves. If they have exceptions, then they aren't pro-life by definition. That's like someone saying "I'm not homophobic, but I don't believe gays should be allowed to marry and adopt." Ben Shapiro is a moron, but yes. If he was against abortion except in cases of medical/rape/incest (which unless that view has changed recently, he's against abortion in those circumstances as well. Or at least he used to be) then I would tell him he was pro-choice. The same as if someone was against abortion but supported death with dignity. You do not get to change the definitions of words to try and suit a narrative.
    1
  1128. So you're a hypocrite who preaches that life is precious but still supports circumstantial abortion. This isn't an insult, but I think that weakens your argument. Congrats. She was one of the lucky ones. Not everyone has that luck. The foster care and adoption system do need more support. Qe agree there.
    1
  1129.  @supremeangel_5381  I don't believe anyone is truly pro-life. It doesnt have to be complicated.
    1
  1130.  @michael-k.  Its not murder unless its unlawful.
    1
  1131. agy k. Ever think of women who can't take the pill, nor take the morning after pill?
    1
  1132. agy k. Because they're are people like me who have blood clotting and hypertension problems and cannot take birth control or the morning after pill because of the risk for fatal complications.
    1
  1133. agy k. Probably because sex is human nature. I would rather a fetus be aborted than be abused and neglected by unfit parents
    1
  1134. agy k. Because a majority of parents get an abortion because they aren't physically, emotionally or financially ready to care for a child. So what happens when you force them to have that child? They neglect it. Not having sex defies human nature. A fetus is not sentient and cannot feel, nor live without the host mother. I would hope it would be the absolute last resort, but it happens for a reason.
    1
  1135. The Bible is certainly not pro-life.
    1
  1136.  @laurathomson6782  What truth? You haven't even established a God exists. But if it is the Christian God, he's not pro-life.
    1
  1137.  @laurathomson6782  I can't have a relationship with a dead carpenter and a being who has never been proven to exist. Please come back to reality.
    1
  1138.  @laurathomson6782  I did read the entire Bible. In fact, I've probably read it more than you have. The difference is, I stepped out of religion and read it with an unbiased view to prove God was real. Know what it did? It made me an atheist. I don't have to ignore your comment just because I disagree, especially when it spreads a harmful rhetoric. You can praise him all you want. Doesn't make him real.
    1
  1139.  @oliviasabella9034  Nothing happens to a baby. A non-sentient human fetus development is terminated.
    1
  1140.  @kickzeez22.  No. Baby, literally and medically, only refers to post-utero. I am well aware it is a stage, but baby is an inaccurate term for a child in utero. That literally does not happen. Whether or not you believe propaganda is up to you. Later term abortions (those past about 25 weeks) are nearly exclusively performed for medical necessity. I'm assuming the bill you're referring to is the one passed in New York that allows abortions up until birth. Have you actually read that bill? Because it doesn't say what you think it does. You don't have to believe it. You're just wrong. Baby is post utero. Fetus is in utero. Those are just the correct terms. Doesn't make it less human.
    1
  1141.  @kickzeez22.  It doesn't contradict anything. It is human. Its also a clump of cells. All organic matter is clumps of cells at a base level. I can't speak for New Zeland. I just know where I stand.
    1
  1142.  @kickzeez22.  Well, since it isn't illegal, it isn't murder. So that phrase is off. If you're asking how I justify killing a human fetus, its because I place the value on life in quality, and not life itself.
    1
  1143.  @kickzeez22.  That's only your opinion. I don't think children deserve to be mentally and physically tortured. I don't think death at an age when one cannot feel is worse than torment. You cannot miss something you never had. Again, I don't believe life has inherent value. That's my personal belief. Yes, I do think death is better than torture. As someone who will have lifelong disabilities because of absuive parents, I would have rather never been born at all. I never said the couldn't live a happy life. That's just statistically not probable. How about all the people who scream that they wish they were aborted because they are now in prison or homeless? How about the 26% of those in foster care who commit suicide? To only focus on the RARE success stories is shitty and ignorant. Marylin Monroe is a poor example. She died of a barbiturate overdose because of her circumstances. Many believe this was suicide. It is not unconditional in my opinion.
    1
  1144.  @kickzeez22.  I don't really care if they're hurt by what I said. They ARE actually the rare cases. I would be hurt at the fact that they would tell me to be grateful I'm alive, even though my life has been mostly just suffering. Perspective matters. That's fine that you disagree. I can't convince you of that. It is human. I just don't view abortion as a moral issue.
    1
  1145. Abortion is not unlawful, and is therefore not murder.
    1
  1146.  @madi5062  Murder by definition is unlawful. Abortion is not unlawful, therefore is not murder. That is not an opinion. That's a fact.
    1
  1147.  @madi5062  Or perhaps the people who made abortion lawful understand science and the biological difference between a baby and a fetus. Fine. Then you should have to pay for the children for 18 years. So how much you support it then. I highly doubt you will ever consider adoption or fostering a child.
    1
  1148. Easy answer? Statistics.
    1
  1149.  @blazeovich  You're argument "could find the cure to cancer" is nonsense. There is statistically no way to do that without access to things a child needs to grow and develop. Statistically, children who grow up in abusive situations either die to their abuser, commit suicide, or end up in prison. Death is certainly not the worst thing. Especially when you don't comprehend life.
    1
  1150. Yes it is. But thats not the argument.
    1
  1151. Its not that it isn't a person. Its that at the time of most abortions, its not a sentient person. And I believe you probably are still pro-choice by definition.
    1
  1152.  Lizzie Allen  Then I would still be pro-choice because I don't think abortion is a moral issue. Its a legal/rights issue. I could grant you the premise that abortion is evil, and still argue its a necessary evil.
    1
  1153.  @wiggawithattitude  Then I could just give you the trapping burning building arguement in which, by your own logic, you would be a monster either way. Its not a moral issue. No one argues that we wish abortion didn't happen. Its a legal matter of whether or not it should be available. Also sentience does matter. Doctors take people off life support and have slow codes. We put people to death. We send soldiers off to war. Humankind has never cared about death. You show me a fetus that can develop its "own body" without a uterus and tube. That it grow its "own body" on its own without taking nutrition from another source. You know what we call that in science? A parasite. Life is a right. So is liberty. And your rights do not trump anothers and vice versa. Stop elevating life above anything else.
    1
  1154.  @wiggawithattitude  Because thats biologically what they are. You are the one who takes a term and gives it a negative stigma, not me. For some, being pregnant brings a lot of benefit, especially mentally. That doesn't detract from truth. I have 2 children of my own. I love them more than anything. By the way, a fetus does thrive at cost to the mother. That is why neonatal care is so important. That fetus takes vital nutrients, and I have seen more than one case of pregnant mothers with severe nutritional deficiencies because they were pregnant. Liberty was literally defined as "the autonomy of oneself". You have a right to your organs. Just as a doctor cannot just take organs from people, a fetus cannot take a woman's uterus without her consent. That is a violation of her liberty. Perhaps it is you who should look into it more. This is why the Supreme Court ruled the way it did. All rights are equal. Life is NOT above other rights.
    1
  1155.  @ashchong  "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". That applies to the mother as well. A fetus's "right to life" does not override the mothers "right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". A non-sentient fetus has no legal rights. You are trying to put rights of the fetus above the rights of the mother. And that will never be law.
    1
  1156.  @ashchong  A non-sentient fetus. So what?
    1
  1157.  @ashchong  Because it is not my choice what someone chooses to do with their body. Because consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. And because I have first hand seen the damage done to children born to unfit parents. I have personally seen the adoption and foster care system. You don't save anyone by outlawing abortions. You should have a right to choice, which includes abstinence, birth control, adoption or abortion.
    1
  1158.  @ashchong  A fetus cannot consent. It has no legal rights. Someone should have the right to die if they so choose. Adoption should be considered, but you speak as if its a guarantee that the child will be adopted into a loving family. That is not reality. Also, you have made it clear you do not know how abortions are performed nowadays.
    1
  1159.  @ashchong  No. Not even close. A fetus isn't sentient. It lacks a brainstem at the time of most abortions. A fetus cannot decide. It is not independent of its parent. You are killing a living being. So what? You do that every day.
    1
  1160.  @ashchong  When did I ever say it wasn't human?
    1
  1161.  @ashchong  I have no problem. You have the problem as you are the one who has a problem with abortion being an option.
    1
  1162. Pretty rich considering the Bible is EXTREMELY pro-choice.
    1
  1163.  @hannahbanana0466  Would you like specific verses? I'm sure you'll find a way to explain ALL these, as thats what you people do. But here: pregnant woman who is injured and aborts the fetus warrants financial compensation only (to her husband), suggesting that the fetus is property, not a person (Exodus 21:22-25). • The gruesome priestly purity test to which a wife accused of adultery must submit will cause her to abort the fetus if she is guilty, indicating that the fetus does not possess a right to life (Numbers 5:11-31). • God enumerated his punishments for disobedience, including "cursed shall be the fruit of your womb" and "you will eat the fruit of your womb," directly contradicting sanctity-of-life claims (Deuteronomy 28:18,53). • Elisha's prophecy for soon-to-be King Hazael said he would attack the Israelites, burn their cities, crush the heads of their babies and rip open their pregnant women (2 Kings 8:12). • King Menahem of Israel destroyed Tiphsah (also called Tappuah) and the surrounding towns, killing all residents and ripping open pregnant women with the sword (2 Kings 15:16). • Isaiah prophesied doom for Babylon, including the murder of unborn children: "They will have no pity on the fruit of the womb" (Isaiah 13:18). • For worshiping idols, God declared that not one of his people would live, not a man, woman or child (not even babies in arms), again confuting assertions about the sanctity of life (Jeremiah 44:7-8). • God will punish the Israelites by destroying their unborn children, who will die at birth, or perish in the womb, or never even be conceived (Hosea 9:10-16). • For rebelling against God, Samaria's people will be killed, their babies will be dashed to death against the ground, and their pregnant women will be ripped open with a sword (Hosea 13:16). • Jesus did not express any special concern for unborn children during the anticipated end times: "Woe to pregnant women and those who are nursing" (Matthew 24:19).
    1
  1164.  Lizzie Allen  Except they do.
    1
  1165. Catholics are the largest sect of Christianity. No one cares about your no true scotsman.
    1
  1166.  @travisjohnson7065  Right and wrong are entirely subjective. You may not have thought slavery was wrong had you been born in a different era. I can grant you that abortion is wrong, but can also make a case that forced pregnancy is wrong. Pro-choice also doesn't just apply to abortions. Very few people are ACTUALLY pro-life.
    1
  1167.  @travisjohnson7065  Just because morality is subjective does not mean you can't complain. And you're right. It wouldn't be objectively wrong. Nothing in nature shows us killing is wrong. Its wrong because our moral framework (which can be objective from a societal perspective) says it is. We then apply our own subjective morals to this framework. That doesn't suddenly make it objective. Slavery isn't objectively wrong. It's wrong TO YOU. That is YOUR subjective opinion. If the moral framework around you changed, that sense of morality may or may not change with it. Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If you hinder someone from doing something, you are forcing them. Just because something is a biological function doesn't mean anything. Cancer is a biological in nature. Everyone has cancer cells. That doesn't mean someone should not seek help when its causing a problem. It can be morally wrong. But only if your subjective morality says it is. Just as my morality says that abortion isn't inherently wrong nor something that should be forbidden. No. Life is equal to liberty.
    1
  1168. Minty Bear That fetus is a parasite to me and NEEDS me to survive. So it is part of my body. You don't get to tell me what I can and can't do with my body. It isn't about life. It's about sentience. I would rather an unfit mother abort a fetus than birth a child she then abuses and neglects
    1
  1169. Minty Bear Guess what? Until it can fuction biologically without the help of another being, it is a parasite. It's physically attached to my uterus. So it is a part of my body until it develops it's own. Murder, by definition, is unlawful. So no, abortion is not murder. Again, it's not a child at the time of an abortion. It's a fetus.
    1
  1170. Minty Bear 9 months is not soon. I don't believe in later term abortions, but if a mother is unfit, I would rather her abort it when it isn't sentient than abuse it when it is.
    1
  1171. Brendan Gallagher The fetuses heart does not beat independently from it's mother until between 11 and 12 weeks. Some can't even hear a heartbeat at all until that time. It's not about life. It's about sentience. If you HAD any compassion for the child, you would be pro choice. You would want it to grow up in a healthy, loving, and stable environment. So no. You don't give a shit. You couldn't care less what a child has to go through, so long as it's born. Maybe your opinion would change if you had kids and young teens who's lives are now ruined telling you every day "I want to die" "Kill me" and "I wish I had been aborted."
    1
  1172. Brendan Gallagher If you honestly think that the majority of unloved or abused kids get to live life to the fullest and love it, you're living in a fantasy. Sorry, but it's not that rosy. A majority of children exposed to this end up in prison or dead. You also shouldn't get to make they choice if they live. There are people out there who want to die.
    1
  1173. Brendan Gallagher You do, but you can only do so much.
    1
  1174. Cannibalism is the eating flesh of the same species. Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy.
    1
  1175.  @rapidriver7504  No, not usually. And even if you do get a surgical abortion, that doesn't make it cannibalism. Cannibalism is the consumption of (in our case) human flesh. That ha NOTHING to do with abortion.
    1
  1176.  @rapidriver7504  I have. Multiple times. And I doubt you understand how most abortions are performed now. Just because it messed your friend up doesn't mean it affects everyone like that.
    1
  1177. So how about people who are pro-choice because they were failed abortions and know the struggles of growing up in a completely disturbed and broken home? How about those who's lives are so awful that they wish they had been aborted?
    1
  1178.  @bosnia7429  But they may not want to experience life. You could make the argument that isn't a choice either.
    1
  1179.  @bosnia7429  No, women who are not prepared for a child should NOT be forced to have them.
    1
  1180.  @dennyd.j8705  To deny the bodies urges is incredibly unhealthy.
    1
  1181. I don't think life is the question at all. You take life every day. It comes down to sentience, sapience, rights, and inherent value.
    1
  1182.  @mudcuvmakskcocoksjwjshs8155  In a literal sense? From conception. In a philosophical sense? When sentience is achieved.
    1
  1183.  @mudcuvmakskcocoksjwjshs8155  No, because murder has an established definition. Taking of human life is not inherently murder.
    1
  1184.  @mudcuvmakskcocoksjwjshs8155  Killing. If its UNLAWFUL, that would be murder.
    1
  1185.  @mudcuvmakskcocoksjwjshs8155  It is in certain circumstances. War, capital punishment, abortion, self defense.
    1
  1186.  @ethanm.2411  Sentient human beings, yeah.
    1
  1187.  @ethanm.2411  Comatose people are sentient. Unless you mean comatose as in brain dead. In which I personally see no reason to keep them alive.
    1
  1188.  @ethanm.2411  But it is. Just because they can't respond doesn't mean they can't think or feel subjectively. This occurs as long as the brain is still fuctioning. I have the exact definition you do. All a coma is is the brain being in such a state that it cannot arouse physical conciousness. This can be for a myraid of reasons. People have sentience as long as the brain functions.
    1
  1189. Human life may be sacred in your opinion, but its not objectively true. Abortion isn't murder, and not everyone is religious. Nothing is worse than murdering a person? Have you ever even spoken to children who grew up unloved, were abused, in foster care? I hear every day that they wish they were dead. It is my choice and it always will be as long as the fetus isn't sentient. There are some parents who cannot take care of children, no matter how much you wish they were. An animal is sentient. A fetus is not. That is the difference. No, its not murder. There's an established definition of murder. Abortion will never be outlawed. Alabama is looking at lawsuits and federal fines as we speak. It will be overturned.
    1
  1190. Yes he does. You should read the Bible sometime. Hosea specifically. You'll find tens of verses about God killing the unborn.
    1
  1191. Neon Odyrah Protected sex can still end in pregnancy because protection fails. Sex is a natural part of life.
    1
  1192. Neon Odyrah And then there are people, like me, who can't use protection.
    1
  1193.  @lilyofwater2257  Shall we list all of the stories that condone abortion? Like killing pregnant women? They aren't assumptions if they're true.
    1
  1194.  @ianalan4367  When it no longer has to depend biologically on the woman for survival.
    1
  1195.  @ianalan4367  No, I said biologically. As in its biological functions are solely dependent upon the mother. Not physically. That would be until the beginning of a brainstem formed and the fetus was sentient. Between 12 and 13 weeks.
    1
  1196. Depends on the child. I know many children who would rather die than suffer. I also know many children that feel they'd rather struggle for a chance than die.
    1
  1197. No it isn't. Unless its unlawful.
    1
  1198.  @Niko_Bellic4  Yes, but thats not the point. It doesn't matter if its human or living. Last I checked, the next of kin has the legal right to remove a person off of life support.
    1
  1199.  @Niko_Bellic4  Then you apparently don't know the law. If the person on life support would live without it, there would be no reason to be on it. You put someone on life support because they cannot live on their own.
    1
  1200.  @Niko_Bellic4  Everywhere in the US. Every single states passes the legal decision to turn off life support to the next of kin. This law was mandated after the 15 year struggle with Terry Schiavo. The next of kin consults with a doctor and makes the decision to either continue treatment or terminate the machine. You would not go to prison for taking someone off life support any more than you would for an abortion.
    1
  1201.  @Niko_Bellic4  Of course they consult with doctors. Most people don't want to pull the plug unless its necessary. Its ultimately, however, up to them. No. Its not. But that is my subjective opinion.
    1
  1202. Your federal tax dollars do not pay for abortions. That's against the federal law.
    1
  1203. Anthony Leydens I'm all for ending the drug war. Let people do what they want to themselves. If they OD, it's their own fault.
    1
  1204. Anthony Leydens No, they aren't an excuse. Just people shouldn't be arrested for having or using drugs
    1
  1205. Alura Fletch No not at all. I live in Indiana, a rather conservative state in the Midwest region of the United States.
    1
  1206. Johnni Ono "A fetus has thought and consciousness" -Pretty hard to do considering the actual brain doesn't even start to develop until 10 weeks, and isn't developed enough for thought until 20, the cutoff for abortions.
    1
  1207. Johnni Ono Learn to understand the difference between life and sentience. You a vegan? If not, you don't give a shit about life.
    1
  1208.  @esppupsnkits4560  There has never been any scientific link between abortion and infertility.
    1
  1209. The Bible is very pro choice.
    1
  1210.  Lizzie Allen  Most atheists don't condemn abortion as murder. I've never met one. Abortion isn't a good or bad thing. Its neutral. All depends on your interpretation
    1
  1211.  Lizzie Allen  Let me restate. All my friends are atheists. I talk to a lot of atheists. None of them believe that abortion is murder.
    1
  1212. And there are 44,000 children waiting for adoption. They can take their pick. No one should be forced to give birth.
    1
  1213.  @britishmgtow7251  You should absolutely not defund Planned Parenthood. That stops people who rely on public health care funds from getting care at Centers.
    1
  1214. mmm lasaga There are still people who don't have access to those contraceptives or who cannot take contraceptives. The fetus doesn't care if you abort it up until a certain point. Why should a rape victim be any different? As a rape victim, why should I get special treatment? Having sex is human nature. Most abortions take place because a woman has sex and realizes she cannot care for it and no other options are viable or available to her. Most doctors won't tie your tube until you're at least in your mid 30s or have servere health problems.
    1
  1215. mmm lasaga So defy your human nature? That's completely unhealthy. Know who your sleeping with, and you won't have to worry about an STD.
    1
  1216. mmm lasaga Anyone who has ever had sex will tell you masturbation doesn't feel the same as intercourse.
    1
  1217. mmm lasaga It's not that their obsessed with intercourse. Their body naturally wants it. Holding that instinct back isn't healthy. The priests and nuns are just fine? Tell that to all the boys and girls they sexually assault.
    1
  1218. mmm lasaga No, you've just took a tangent from the original point and seemed to have flunked high school biology.
    1
  1219. mmm lasaga You don't seem to act like it, since you completely deviated from the original debate of abortion. Those sort of things you'll learn more when/if you take biology in college. When you preach abstinence, you make people shut you out. Our sex instincts are important. They're the reason we continued to survive as a species. Don't know if you know this, but you wouldn't be here without it.
    1
  1220. anonmity So in other words "defy your natural human instinct". Doesn't work that way.
    1
  1221. Thats called a strawman arguement. Slaves were sentient beings with rights (albeit limited) outlined in the Constitution. That does not exist for a fetus. Slavery didn't infringe upon your rights. Pregnancy does.
    1
  1222. I find it hilarious that your preach about abortion when your Book outright SUPPORTED abortion. Your GOD is not pro-life.
    1
  1223.  @kstep0  Even if a woman doesn't know shes pregnant until the sixth week, which is ridiculous, the fetus still doesn't feel pain. The brain stem doesn't finish development until between 12 and 13 weeks. You cannot feel if you have no brainstem to register pain.
    1
  1224.  @dandylion2837  So what if they don't? That may be a good thing. The fetus has no rights BECAUSE it lacks sentience. In fact, YOU have no inherent rights. You ONLY have rights because a governing body says you do.
    1
  1225.  @dandylion2837   No, I'm not okay with abortion just because the fetus isnt sentient. I'm okay with abortion up until a certain point for a number of reasons. Our rational thinking is different. Having an abortion is taking responsibility. No, I'm not worth more. Humans are animals. I'm no more valuable than my cats.
    1
  1226.  @charliegranberry2594  Personhood is the definition of a person, which is defined by sentience and its not at all vague. It starts when the fetus can think and feel subjectively. Tumors also have their own DNA. Does that mean we can't remove them? No. It is privileged to pretend that everyone's life will get better no matter the circumstances. That is just not reality. Suicide is driven by whether pain outweighs pain management. Anyone who has ever been suicidal would tell you that they didn't want to die.
    1
  1227.  @matt1325  Yes, I think he would be a person, not just because of sentience. But that argument means nothing because he's not real.
    1
  1228.  @parzival3890  Yeah. I would genuinely rather not live that perpetually suffer.
    1
  1229. Can't hurt something that has no nervous system to register pain. Thats not how the legal system works either.
    1
  1230. Abortion is murder as much as killing cows for food is animal abuse.
    1
  1231. Not having sex doesnt work. People have a natural urge to have sex, because it helps the body physically and mentally. I'm all for using protection, but some women cannot take birth control. Also, it's not murder, at least in the US. That's not a belief. It's a fact. You're either against all abortions or against no abortions. Circumstantial is hypocritical.
    1
  1232. Coach Chris Go back to school and learn the definiton of murder, because I think you'll find it's not.
    1
  1233. Yet not all people can have access to them or can take them.
    1
  1234.  @absentmind4589  Abortion is taking responsibility. Its realizing you do not have the maturity and ability to raise and care for a child like it needs to be. Just because I cannot take contraception doesnt mean I should be banned from a natural and healthy experience because of someone else. Also no. That is not necessarily true. I live in an area that will not even sell birth control to you without a physician prescription.
    1
  1235.  @absentmind4589  No, that was not what I was saying. I PHYSICALLY CANNOT take contraception.
    1
  1236.  @absentmind4589  condoms still fail. Not to mention, again, some cant use them.
    1
  1237.  @absentmind4589  Not true. You can be using them precisely as directed and there could still be a failure. I'm not saying abortion should be a first resort. And it rarely ever is. Also no, sex is not just for procreation. Sex is healthy for the body, and a natural feeling we have. There is nothing wrong with casual sex. Forcing an unfit mother to birth a child she cannot handle is selfish and irresponsible.
    1
  1238.  @absentmind4589  You have your opinions and I have mine. Never said it wasnt irresponsible to prevent pregnancy. Then again, you can't prevent pregnancy 100% unless you're fixed or abstinent. However. It's also irresponsible to understand your mistakes but force yourself to live with consequences you cannot handle
    1
  1239. Heartbeat means nothing without the mother controlling it until the brainstem forms. Stopping the devlopment of a non-sentient fetus that doesn't care affects no one but me.
    1
  1240. Abortion isn't murder.
    1
  1241. As someone who has been treated so badly it has left her with lifelong disabilities, I respectfully disagree. There are much worse things than death.
    1
  1242. christopher Scott Wasn't being a smartass. Just being honest.
    1
  1243.  @blaecccuebbler7711  An answer to what?
    1
  1244.  @Charles-km7in  I do wish I had been aborted. Though I am currently stable, nothing I have is worth the pain and suffering I experienced. I am not of the mindset that life is a gift or inherently valuable. I don't believe in "ultimate purpose". And no, I'm not normal. And frankly, while I understand you are trying to be encouraging, you come off as disrespectful and condescending. I'm NOT like the rest of you. I have emotional and physical scars that will never heal. And I frankly feel like you are undermining my suffering.
    1
  1245. @Eddie Davies Because you don't give a rats ass about people, like me, who were abused and destroyed by the mentality you possess. No, life isn't inherently valuable. Value is descriptive, not prescriptive. I can say that same thing. Saying its true doesn't make it so.
    1
  1246.  @blaecccuebbler7711  And your question is?
    1
  1247. @Eddie Davies Its a generalization. I'm not offended by your opinion. But your opinion is the reason I suffered abuse, and your way of thinking is the reason I can't live normally. Its irritating, but its not offensive.
    1
  1248. @Eddie Davies The opinion of abortion being a crime and allowing unfit parents and/or a broken system to be expected to take care of them is what caused me suffering and the inability to live a normal life. You're not being rude. You're just kind of ignorant. I understand that you are coming from the right place. But you fail to notice the problems with your mindset. Your bigger picture is fine. Your details are skewed.
    1
  1249. @Eddie Davies I aborted my first child and have a living son and daughter.
    1
  1250. @Eddie Davies Certainly better than it was. And for the record, I had to abort my first. I had no intention to at first
    1
  1251. @Eddie Davies Yeah. I developed a severe bleeding disorder and I kept bleeding into the abdomen. I would have never been able to carry long enough for the child to be viable outside of the womb. To be honest, I still have the remains of what would have been my firstborn.
    1
  1252.  @JOVine-gl6df  No, actually its fact. It doesn't fit the definition of murder.
    1
  1253. Now, I don't agree with the draft. That's a law that needs to be repealed. But you are comparing that to the right to bodily autonomy. Thats a false equivalence fallacy
    1
  1254.  @noelmakarth156  And I said that should be a law to be abolished. However, the odds of ever needing a draft outside of another world war is almost nonexistent.
    1
  1255. So its not her body? Then explain to me how a fetus can develop its "own body" without her uterus and umbilical cord. Oh wait. It can't. It doesn't exist without the use of her uterus.
    1
  1256.  @kingorange7739  Nice strawman. The difference is a newborn doesn't need its mother to live. Any other person could take care of it. A fetus specifically needs a woman's uterus to develop.
    1
  1257.  @Anon-wq9te   Blurp   A defibulator is a machine used in ambulances to restart a heart that has stopped. It's not a machine you are hooked up to. Also no. If your brain dead, unless assuming you are being put on machines, then no. You aren't still alive. Yes, I would say someone who is only be kept alive because of machines is dead. Very rarely can you hear a heartbeat at 22 days, but even if you can, the fetuses heartbeat isn't beating on it's own. That's entirely the mother doing that while the circulatory system forms. Also no. The nerve synapses begin to form, that will eventually become the brain, between 4 and 5 weeks. The brainstem doesnt develop until between 10 and 12 weeks and the brain doesnt develop until between 15-16 weeks. Technically, theres no federal limit on abortion. Personally, I think 20 weeks is to late. I think the fetus gaining sentience is the cutoff point. Do you know the average time for an abortion? 6-8 weeks. The fetus is not sentient at this point, and I dont really care. I dont care about life. I care about sentience. No, abortion should be off the table before the end of the first trimester.
    1
  1258.  @Anon-wq9te   Blurp  No, because I'm not a hypocrite. Animals have life, yet I support the slaughter of them because I like meat. I do not put humans on a pedestal. The fetus can't choose because it has no brain, and rarely are surgical abortions performed. I was a failed abortion, and I understand how downright miserable life can be when you are born to unfit parents. I'm tired of hearing CHILDREN scream about how they wish they had been aborted! I work in a profession where people like you, who shame a woman into not having an abortion, are at fault for a child now spending years in prison because they couldn't handle the abuse and shot their mother. Once again, I was a failed abortion. And despite all I have managed to accomplish I wish I had never been born. So many more people don't turn out like me. Their abused and miserable, usually ending up either in prison, or dead anyway.
    1
  1259. Of every woman I know that has had an abortion, only 2 regretted their decisions and wish the could do it over again. Many of the women I know didn't want an abortion, but felt they made the correct decision because of where they were at the time. It was her choice to make. She regrets it. That is not the opinion held by everyone. Until the fetus is sentient, it is my choice what happens to it.
    1
  1260. Unintelligent Individual Because that isn't their right. You have autonomy over your own body
    1
  1261. Someone doesn't comprehend what "murder" is.
    1
  1262. Every human is a "taker of life".
    1
  1263.  @ashchong  Still doesn't make it murder.
    1
  1264.  @Amy-zw4mk  Literally the definiton of murder is the "unlawful killing of another human being".
    1
  1265.  @Amy-zw4mk  A. Because even though we disagree, a fetus isn't considered legally a person and B. Because it is not unlawful.
    1
  1266.  @Amy-zw4mk  Personally, I do believe it is human life. Thats why I said I disagree with the law. But I also don't believe life is inherently valuable.
    1
  1267.  @Amy-zw4mk  I'm pro-choice.
    1
  1268. But not everyone who supports the right to choose, including abortion, wishes they were.
    1
  1269.  Lizzie Allen  Not really. Denied and missed opportunities are not taking advantage of life.
    1
  1270. You do realize that hospitals and doctors have DNR's and perform slow codes right? They will not save a life if there is no benefit to a person. And how is pulling the plug on a comatose person immoral, especially if that is what they wanted?
    1
  1271.  @jamescurley8559  Only in your opinion do they have the same value. I don't, personally, believe anyone has inherent value. You don't have the right to live if your right interferes with that of another. I can't force you to donate a kidney to me because it will save my life. That violates your right to liberty. Its the same with pregnancy. A fetus cannot use a woman's uterus to its benefit without her consent. That violates her liberty and thats why abortion is an option. Morality is subjective. I see nothing wrong with pulling the plug on someone who will not get better.
    1
  1272. Kinda funny considering the Bible is pro-choice.
    1
  1273.  @andrewthomas365  Well I don't believe in God, so...
    1
  1274.  @andrewthomas365  No, it actually doesn't. But that is your belief.
    1
  1275.  @strive4252  Abortion isn't murder (at least in the states). That is a fact, not an opinion. The only one who cares about an unborn child not living a life is you. The fetus doesn't care.
    1
  1276.  @strive4252  I'm an abortion survivor. Everyone is different. You cannot miss something you never had.
    1
  1277.  @strive4252  It is killing and perhaps may be immoral in your opinion. I think its immoral to being a child into the world that you cannot care for to neglect and abuse it. But these are our aubjective opinions. No its not the same at all, and you failed biology if you believe that.
    1
  1278. James Films It makes me loose faith in humanity about all these non-vegan pro-capital punishment ignorant hypocrites who don't even bother trying to see it from the other side
    1
  1279. And it is. Thats not up for debate. Thats a medical fact.
    1
  1280.  @rachelle5169  And when you get pregnant, you have a fetus attached by an umbilical cord to the placenta of the uterus, allowing that fetus to essentially steal your nutrients to grow.
    1
  1281. VapeDaddy Smoke The issue isn't life. No one denies the fetus is living. But it's only living off the host mother, because it has not yet developed the criteria needed to live on its own. It's not about life. It's about sentience.
    1
  1282. @Humanity Galatica That depends on if you mean "objectively evil" based on my moral framework or based on nature. They were evil in my opinion, because what they did goes against my values of secular humanism. But is that objective? No.
    1
  1283. @Humanity Galatica Depends on your moral framework
    1
  1284. And all of those methods can fail. What then?
    1
  1285. And then watch the country revolt for the blatant violation of the Constitution.
    1
  1286.  Lizzie Allen  Rape victimizes a sentient individual. Abortion does not.
    1
  1287. "Its not fair to try and make a decision based on your perception of value" That's exactly what YOU'RE doing. Many of us don't believe life has inherent value, so its irritating to have it pushed on us that it is.
    1
  1288.  @leslieloftis4787  You have no right to violate another's rights to pursue your own.
    1
  1289.  @leslieloftis4787  You're not violating anyone's rights unless you are actively trying to overturn abortion. I'm only "offended" when someone's "opinion" directly interferes with other humans, which many pro-life advocates do. Technically, an unborn fetus has no legal rights. But if it did (which even I believe it should) its rights are equal to the mother's. And its rights cannot violate anothers. Thats why abortion is an option.
    1
  1290. Almost Famous I know how abortions are done. Still pro choice. And no, I'm not heartless.
    1
  1291. Almost Famous a) Most abortions aren't performed that way and b) it's a fetus. Not a baby.
    1
  1292. Leticia Rodrigues And some people don't take or can't take those options.
    1
  1293.  @bluediamond4895  I never argued the fetus wasn't human. But that's not the point. To deny intercourse defies nature an is unhealthy, both physically and relationship wise. I'm all for practicing safe sex, and I believe abortion should be the absolute last resort. It is responsible to have an abortion. What would be irresponsible would be to have the child and neglect it. Sorry, but I don't believe life has intrinsic value.
    1
  1294. @TheBookWorm1718 You intentionally misunderstood what I said. Biologically and legally, a fetus is not a child until after it is born. "Handle that child" as in support it when it IS born. That's WHY they have the abortion. Because they cannot handle the duties that come with raising a child. That doesn't mean the pregnancy process doesn't have hardships, another reason some women chose to abort.
    1
  1295.  @bluediamond4895  You aren't murdering a child. You are aborting a parasitic fetus that you cannot care for. Like I've stated multiple times. I think this should be a last resort. You can't just give a child away. There's a system you have to follow.
    1
  1296.  @bluediamond4895  Because if you can't take care and neglect yourself how are you just NOT going to neglect a child? The brain doesn't work that way. It's not selfish to have an abortion. It's selfish to force someone to do something because it makes you happy. A fetus is not a child until after it is born, nor does it care at the time of most abortions what happens to it. Not all people are capable of love.
    1
  1297.  @bluediamond4895  You still lack the basic understanding of what murder is. No, I don't think it's healthy to get pregnant and just immediately get an abortion. Last resort.
    1
  1298.  @codnoob1152  I don't give a shit where you live. If where you live, if abortion is outlawed, the yes it's murder. It's not murder here. And no. Most women abort because they are not in physical health, are mentally ill, and/or cannot financially handle a child. If you kill it when it is sentient, in my opinion, its murder. THAT is not most abortion cases. There is a difference between life and sentience. Morality is subjective. I think it's immoral to deny a woman a right to her body, and to neglect a sentient child. The unborn doesn't care. It's not a child until after it is born.
    1
  1299. @TheBookWorm1718 You're arguing a technicality. I am speaking strictly LEGALLY and MEDICALLY.
    1
  1300. A lot of idiots who failed an English class in the comments.
    1
  1301. Ankita Minhas He should matter. But your scenario is outliers. A majority of abortions happen because the man refuses to step up.
    1
  1302. Austin Chamberlain And that is why it is important to be able to differentiate between sentience and life. It becomes a baby when it develops the organs and nerves necessary to be classified scientifically as such. Abortion is not murder, as murder, by definition, is unlawful which abortion is not. No, human life has no intrinsic value. Only what you choose to do with your life gives you and your life value. You aren't born valuable.
    1
  1303.  @jackgodfrey.  "would have had a wonderful life?" What kind of delusion do you live in?
    1
  1304.  @jackgodfrey.  I really wish my mother had. Would have saved me a horrid life that resulted in permanent disabilities.
    1
  1305.  @jackgodfrey.  What good is a vocal talent when you can't move? When you have difficulty even staying on beat. Life may be wonderful for you, and I would be lying if I said my life didn't have happy moments, but they were not worth the pain and suffering I went through. And that I continue to suffer. Things change in 5-6 years.
    1
  1306. Having an abortion is not running away. It's taking responsibility by realizing you are too unstable and immature to properly raise a child. I'm a failed abortion, and I would never wish the life I had on anyone, even though I pulled out of it. By the way, a fetus doesn't grow in your stomach. I make the argument it isnt right to force an unfit mother to birth a child and expose that child to violence and abuse. If you want to end abortion someday, treat the root causes.
    1
  1307.  Lizzie Allen  Taxpayers do not fund abortions. That's against the federal law. You pay for an abortion out of pocket.
    1
  1308. Oh boy. Wait until you hear that 50% of pregnancy ends in "self abortion."
    1
  1309. Sentience and consciousness do have scientific bearing. And that should be the argument, not life. Since when do you give a damn about life? You place humans on a pedestal and only care about protecting their life. Get off your high horse and understand why a woman would choose to have an abortion. I'm not anti-life just because I'm pro-choice.
    1
  1310. Because abortion does not fall under the established definition of murder.
    1
  1311. Mental illness is something you're born with that develops over time. It's not just something you can randomly catch. Having a child you can't handle can also lead to suicide. Most women I know are upset that it came to abortion, but do not regret it.
    1
  1312. Ya'll need to prove God exists.
    1
  1313. So what about the cases where birth control and protection fail? Also, I don't personally know any woman that has a guilty conscience about aborting. Sure, they wish they had been in a position to take care of their child. But they believe they made the right decision.
    1
  1314. If you studied Biology and came to that conclusion, you failed miserably.
    1
  1315. No, it isn't.
    1
  1316. Tenhead They're a sentient being at 2 and 3. They're a non sentient parasite when they're aborted. Quit comparing apples to oranges.
    1
  1317. Mathilde Young If you really think it's for convience, then you're an idiot. Go out and talk to these women and maybe get perspective on why they had an abortion.
    1
  1318. Tenhead Murder is punished because it violates the Constitution, but abortion is not murder. Many children I know wish they had been aborted, because they suffered through torment and misery from parents that couldn't take care of them.
    1
  1319. Good thing abortion isnt murder in the US then.
    1
  1320. Pro-life are people who are against abortion and euthanasia, typically advocating for them to be outlawed. Pro-choice are people who believe that the person dying or carrying the fetus should be allowed to have a choice of what is done.
    1
  1321. Louis Castillo You do realize there are people who can't take birth control or use condoms right? What about them? No one's first choice is abortion.
    1
  1322.  @kitfisto6345  Yes, lets pretend abortion is easy. Oh wait. Its not. Also, please learn what murder actually means before using the term incorrectly.
    1
  1323. As a person who grew up in the system, I can absolutely guarantee you that if I could have made the choice, I would have absolutely chosen death. It isn't murder. Murder has an established definition. You don't get to change it because you don't like something.
    1
  1324. You're pro life until someone you love is raped, has an unplanned pregnancy, or when their life is in danger. Then its magically okay.
    1
  1325. "Pro Choice is ultimately wrong..." Yeah no. Thats a subjective opinion. I don't think anyone will say it was barbaric to fight for a woman's rights or the rights of the dying.
    1
  1326.  @ethanm.2411  I don't find it ironic at all. People should have the CHOICE to die when they see fit. Something pro-life also wants to destroy.
    1
  1327. You a vegan? You know what else was a living being with moving limbs? You aren't murdering a baby. You are terminating (or killing) the development of a fetus. Killing does not always equate to murder. Words have established definitions, hypocrite. Please learn them.
    1
  1328.  @liamturman  Many animals are actually more intelligent than humans. We have a higher level of cognitive function.
    1
  1329.  @liamturman  That is just a lie.
    1
  1330. Condoms are not always available and fail. And having an abortion is taking responsibility. By the way, abortions do not harm the body. Even surgical abortions.
    1
  1331. I would argue that its more the pro-life people who don't know how abortions are performed, since they seem to think abortion consists of ripping a fetus apart.
    1
  1332. Anarchyon You realize adoption agencies turn children away and some may never be adopted right?
    1
  1333. Anarchyon They do every day because they lack the room for them. So being terminated when you aren't sentient and can't feel anything is worse than being neglected/abused/potentially killed when you are? That makes sense
    1
  1334. Anarchyon At the time of most abortions, the fetus is between 6 and 8 weeks old. The nervous system has not developed, and only the beginning of the brainstem. No nerves or brain? No pain. You can't force an unfit mother to give birth. She will inevitably come to resent and abuse that child.
    1
  1335. Anarchyon That's called child trafficking. You still have to go through a legal process to give your child over to a 3rd party and someone who is considering abortion is not going to be able to afford that. I don't think it's okay to kill it. But I think that is a better alternative to birthing it into a situation where it will be neglected and abused.
    1
  1336. Anarchyon Child trafficking is not legal. Do you honestly believe a child born to an unfit mother or father will grow up normal? If so, you're living in a fantasy world. It's not murder, as murder is by definition unlawful. Killing and murder are not the same thing.
    1
  1337. Anarchyon A D O P T I O N is not always an option. As I have said, facilities who do not have the room or funds to take in your child will simply turn you away, just like an animal shelter who has run put of room. Even in adoption centers, that child may not be okay. It may not ever be adopted. Guess what happens then? It's kicked out at 18 with no job, no work experience, and only a basic education. Why do you suppose foster kids and adoption kids have high suicide rates? Because the system is fundamentally broken.
    1
  1338. Anarchyon I fucking worked through it. If you want to reach out to actual families to adopt a child out, you'd have to hire a lawyer. Anyone who's even considering abortion would not be able to afford one. No, I don't think abortion is the only way out, and I think it should be the last way out. You seem to want to take away that freedom completely.
    1
  1339. Anarchyon Again, murder is unlawful, which abortion is not. You'd ban abortion, and then be dealing with women abandoning children they can't care for or simply neglecting them. You'd skyrocket the rate of child abuse, and completely destroy what is left of the foster care system. They can't afford a lawyer, therefore they can't legally give their child away. I know several women who have had abortions. There's not a day that goes by that they don't wonder what could have been, but in the end, they felt they made a responsible decision, because they did not have the means necessary to care for the child at the time.
    1
  1340. Anarchyon But not all family members will help. And yes it will. Because mother's will be forced to have children they are not capable of handling and will inevitably abuse them. I never said abortion is the only way. I even stated abortion should be the last possible option. But it should, for the time being, remain a possibility.
    1
  1341. Anarchyon I didn't say all. I said some. Some family's just literally don't help. I'm sorry if it comes across that way. No, I don't think abortion is the only way, and I hope to one day see a world where abortion is not needed.
    1
  1342.  @nicolechavez6981  More than 50% of pregnancy will end in miscarriage. How do you call that unnatural? Its not unnatural to miscarry any more than it is to carry to term. I don't consider abortions natural. They aren't. This topic isn't triggering. Its the woman's right to decide whether to continue a pregnancy. Thats it.
    1
  1343.  @nicolechavez6981  Just by definition.
    1
  1344. Uhh no. Actually some abortions are medically necessary. Abnormal process of pregnancy, fetal defects, and maternal medical conditions are all reasons why a doctor might say an abortion is necessary. You clearly don't know how most abortions are performed. You actually think most fetuses are ripped and and disposed up. I know women who have their aborted fetuses remains still.
    1
  1345.  Tim Account  That is not a fact. You wouldn't save infants by outlawing abortion. A woman would have it done illegally or would neglect or abuse the child to death. Being pro-choice doesn't stand against humanity.
    1
  1346.  Tim Account  I never said "back alley abortions". You inferred that. More woman would just self abort, force themselves into having a miscarriage. But thats exactly what your doing. You are punishing the sentient child. The fact remains that you cannot miss something you never had
    1
  1347.  Tim Account  It was a rare reported event. Crimes go unreported all the time. In fact, more than 50% of crimes go unreported. Your data, which isn't as low as you think, are only those people know about. Times change. Humans do not stay stagnant. You would provide no benefit by outlawing abortion until you treat the root causes of why a woman seeks an abortion.
    1
  1348.  Tim Account  Are you actually a person who believes that every single crime is reported?
    1
  1349.  Tim Account  Except the data doesn't account for those unreported crimes.
    1
  1350.  Tim Account  And once again, those numbers only apply to confirmed, reported abortions. I don't think you understand how legal data collection works. Of course the numbers would fall. That wasn't my point. You know what fell when abortion was made legal? Child abuse cases, infancy death, and neglect cases. Look, I'm 100% on board with an abortion beling a last resort. But if you honestly think that outlawing abortion nationwide would HELP anyone, you're just ignorant.
    1
  1351. Unintelligent Individual The adoption system is far worse and far more broken.
    1
  1352. So what about the pregnancies that occurred from failed protection?
    1
  1353. Because biologically and medically it isnt a child. That's just a scientific fact. That is not to say that it isnt human. Indeed they begin listening in the womb. When they are sentient. And that is when abortion should no longer be a viable option. You aren't born valuable. Your value comes from what you offer to the world, no matter how short it is.
    1
  1354. No it isn't. That's not an opinion. Learn what the definition of murder is.
    1
  1355. No. People debating about the difference between sentience and life, what a fetus is, and rights.
    1
  1356.  Lizzie Allen  Not necessarily.
    1
  1357.  Kavita M  Not in the traditional sense.
    1
  1358. Thats because there are no easily debunked arguments or facts for pro-life. They have to fall back on religion because its their only defense.
    1
  1359.  @jovy1218  That doesn't back pro-life. Science takes a neutral stance on all moral arguments. We have found life on other planets, including mars. And yes DNA is complex. So what? Two, the latin word fetus means unborn and refers to any unborn mammalian species, not just humans. It is technically not a baby until after birth.
    1
  1360.  @jovy1218  I took Latin in college. No, there are only 2 sexes. You apparently do not know the difference between sex and gender. Gender is a social construct. I would advise you do some research. Science can't tell you what is moral. If you want to use facts, you'd be pro- choice. I am more than happy to debate you.
    1
  1361.  @ethanm.2411  Sentience and sapience. Not life.
    1
  1362.  @ethanm.2411  I am perfectly fine with taking someone off of life support, especially if thats what they want. Ever heard of a DNR? Hospital slow codes? This is why I urge people to make a will, so your friends and family know if you would like to be sustained in machines or not. So yes. Absolutely. Unless of course, that is not your wish.
    1
  1363.  @ethanm.2411  When it comes to life support, if you have no will, then it is your next of kin's choice to make. The analogy doesn't match. A fetus's right to life does not supersede a woman's right to liberty. She does not consent to pregnancy, therefore she has the legal right to remove the fetus.
    1
  1364.  @ethanm.2411  You can disagree all you want. You're objectively wrong. That is the law in the United States. I will not debate unrealistic hypotheticals and variables. You are trying to twist an argument to suit your narrative, and its dishonest.
    1
  1365.  @ethanm.2411  But you are trying to place that fetus's right to life above her right to liberty, because you won't allow abortion. She does not consent to the pregnancy. And if we want to be really technical, that fetus has no legal rights. I think the big issue between us is you view abortion as a moral issue. I view it as a legal one. I can grant you that abortion is immoral and still make a case for it being legal.
    1
  1366.  @travisjohnson7065  Right and wrong is never objective. Its always a view based on your culture and upbringing. This should not be a moral issue. It should be a legal one.
    1
  1367.  @travisjohnson7065  Its not objective. And no, 2+2 does not always equal 4. Only in interval and ratio scales does 2 + 2 equal 4. Wrong in your view may not be wrong in someone else's. What evidence can you use to prove without a doubt that your view is correct? None. Rape and murder is only wrong to those who believe that. Slavery is the same way. Some SLAVES fought to STAY slaves. And abortion is only wrong to those who believe it. And even if I granted you the premise that abortion is wrong, I can still make an argument for a necessary evil. I can make an argument from a legal perspective.
    1
  1368.  @travisjohnson7065 Reality is subjective to one's own experiences. Your reality is not mine. Yoir experiences define and shape how you view a certain point in time. Sure, we may have a collective understanding of a basic reality, but it can and does change. Rape and slavery are wrong to you and to me. But that is because of our current culture. That reality has changed with time. No objective fact of nature can show you rape is wrong. You believe that because of the culture and environment you are raised in. You are taught that all people are human. That they all deserve to be respected. That they are all equal. So you naturally come to the conclusion that rape and slavery are wrong. But nothing in nature tells you that, and other cultures don't believe that either. By the way, indentured servitude is still a form of slavery. You could make an argument in favor of slavery. Just like one can make an argument for anything we typically find abhorrent. That's why objective morality doesn't exist. And it doesn't have to. The bottom line is, abortion is a right. Abortion is a necessary evil. Abortion will always be around, legally or illegally. And while it may be wrong TO YOU, that view is not objective. And NO ONE should be demonized for that decision.
    1
  1369.  @travisjohnson7065  Time and culture shapes reality. It is not this objective unchanging force. Thats ridiculous. Morality exists subjectively. And if you're referring to "not believing in anything" in a religious sense, a belief in God changes nothing about your morailty. I'm a secular humanist. Someone murdering my loved one doesn't make what they did right TO ME. But that doesn't make my feeling objective, because that is not a belief shared by everyone. I don't care whether or not objective morality existed. It just simply doesn't. I said I could grant you the premise that it is evil. I don't believe it's evil. I don't believe its inherently wrong. But in a debate, I could grant you the position that it is evil, and still make a case for why it should exist.
    1
  1370. "Its a rare occasion when they are bad." No. Thats the standard. You are the rarity, hon.
    1
  1371.  @andrewparker6058  Statistics are a collection of knowledge that is given to us. You honestly don't seem to know how stats work.
    1
  1372.  @andrewparker6058  Not really. To deny the vile things that happen to others just because you got lucky is, frankly, ignorant.
    1
  1373.  @andrewparker6058  Except you're wrong. You are only believing that because you were one of the lucky ones. You can't help but be biased to your own perception of how things are. There's nothing wrong with that. You just need to admit it.
    1
  1374.  @andrewparker6058  You ARE lucky. You may have bounced through a few different places, but the people you experienced were fine. I work with people that lived in attics, were horribly abused by their guardians, were sex trafficked for money, and were used as a means to gain income. These instances ARE NOT rare. No, I think you're lucky that the few homes you did go to were relatively stable. I think you're lucky that you weren't permanently disabled or disfigured. I think you're lucky that you found, what I assume to be, a loving permanent home. We ridicule the whole process because of the MILLIONS of children who DID NOT get the love that you did. What upsets me is you refusing to accept that fact. I never said putting your kid up for adoption is a terrible thing. It's not. But neither is abortion. Adoption does NOT guarantee a stable life.
    1
  1375.  @andrewparker6058  That I entirely understand. Its so easy for things to get lost in translation.
    1
  1376. It's funny because Christians always tout that line, when the Bible actually condones abortion. Even commands it in some instances.
    1
  1377. At 18 days its heartbeat starts because the circulatory system is developing. It does not develop nerves until 4-5 weeks in, and does not develop a brainstem until between 10 and 12.
    1
  1378.  @natynina8979  The brainstem is required to read any signals from the neurons. We can literally look at medicine and anatomy for that. You don't have to be a fetus to understand that. No its not. Stop trying to change the definitions of words to suit your narrative.
    1
  1379.  @natynina8979  No, I'm not. Because it is. It fits thr criteria of being alive. But you also don't need a heartbeat to be alive. Abortion is not murder. Thats just a lie.
    1
  1380.  @natynina8979  Then I'd advise you pay up, because I have had an abortion. In fact, I aborted my first child. 96% percent of abortions take place before the 12 week mark. These are done with a pill. You are given a medication that causes the body to miscarry and a D&C is then performed, as it would be for a miscarriage. That fetus is a living human. So what? Doesn't make it muder.
    1
  1381.  @natynina8979  Then don't place bets. Its not the morning after pill. That has to be taken before implantation of thr embryo. The morning after pill and the abortion pill are not the same, though the have similar ingredients. An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy at ANY stage. Doesn't matter if its 8 weeks or its 30 weeks.
    1
  1382. The SR Chronicles Then maybe you should learn more on the topic before making a snap judgement call.
    1
  1383. The law doesn't forbid you from doing drugs. The law forbids you from possessing or distributing drugs.
    1
  1384. Someone doesn't know what the definition of murder is.
    1
  1385.  @vidguy  No, it's the unlawful killing of one person by another. Killing and murder are not always interchangeable.
    1
  1386.  @vidguy  If it's not unlawful, than it isnt murder. A non sentient being cannot give consent.
    1
  1387.  @vidguy  Once again. You lack the basic understanding of what murder is. Murder is UNLAWFUL. I don't need permission from the fetus until it is sentient. Until then, it is dependant on taking my life in order to develop. I have all the control until it is no longer biologically dependent on me.
    1
  1388.  @vidguy  You're an idiot with a lack of basic understanding. You're so blinded by emotions that you can't comprehend why a woman would have an abortion.
    1
  1389. Pro-choice literally stands for all those things.
    1
  1390.  @lainewhite5691 Nice debate.
    1
  1391.  @ethanm.2411  When you can show me how a fetus can grow and develop without being attached to the womb and taking nutrients from its mother, then perhaps I will entertain the concept that its not her body. Yes it will. Because a fetus requires the use of a uterus to development. To use that uterus without the consent of the mother is a violation of her bodily autonomy, just as a doctor cannot simply take your healthy kidney and give it to someone else who will die without it simply because you can live with one kidney. If you don't think an individual has a right to do whatever they want with their own body, you do not support the Constitution.
    1
  1392. No, and there's no such thing as pro-abortion. Pro-choice just allows someone to choose any option, including abortion. By the way, did you ever maybe think that some people who are pro-choice have been through the hell of neglectful abusive parents and wish they had been aborted?
    1
  1393. Either abortion is an option to everyone regardless of reason because of bodily autonomy, or no one is entitled to one because the fetus' life is most valuable. Take your pick.
    1
  1394. Thats what we call anecdotal evidence. Guess what? Not everyone feels the way you do. I was a failed abortion and was horribly abused. Despite what I have accomplished in life, it was not worth the pain and damage I went through, and I wish I had been aborted. You don't understand either.
    1
  1395.  @shanabanana9948  Well that makes one of us. Listen, regardless of whether you like it or not, at least in the US, abortion is not murder. That's not an opinion. That's a fact. Abortion should be a last resort. Buts it's a responsible decision as well. Its heartbreaking to hear kids every day say "I wish I had been aborted" and then off themselves.
    1
  1396.  @shanabanana9948  Its only considered a double homicide if the woman is 5 months along or more, because that's when the fetus is sentient and no longer dependant biologically on the mother.
    1
  1397. Except that was a completely false statement. Planned Parenthood does do more than just abortion you know.
    1
  1398.  Lizzie Allen  And? They offer a needed service.
    1
  1399.  Lizzie Allen  Nobody needs drugs, though I am of the opinion that the drug war needs to end. As of right now, I see why people would choose abortion. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.
    1
  1400.  Lizzie Allen  probably because it isnt, since it doesn't fit the established definition of murder.
    1
  1401. Mathilde Young 1. Fetus, not a child. 2. Hardly even a body at the time of most abortions. Religion is ruled by "life begins at conception". It's not about life, it's about sentience.
    1
  1402. Mathilde Young 1. The scientifically correct term is fetus, not "unborn child." 2. Please retake a biology class and learn the difference between gestational periods. 3. Sentience is the capability to be able to think and feel subjectively, something you cannot do without a brain. i.e abortion destroys the potential of life for a human being. It kills a fetus.
    1
  1403. And most abortions take place between 6 and 8 weeks in the first trimester.
    1
  1404.  @JandJFarmCritters  No states allow abortions at 9 months because the federal law doesn't allow that. The latest cutoff date is 26 weeks.
    1
  1405.  @DeathsHood  Exactly.
    1
  1406.  @reubenvarghese3588  The only thing that is refuted by science that I often see pro-choice people use is that life does begin at conception and that the the fetus is human. Neither laws nor morality are based on science. They're based on feelings and emotion. Those can be based or influenced by science.
    1
  1407.  @reubenvarghese3588  Science cannot tell you a drinking age or marijuana. Those laws have changed with the emotions and cultures over the years. It has nothing to with science. And no. They didn't think the African American race was inferior because of science. They thought they were inferior because the Bible said they were. That was a religious based thing. Science can tell us things that can influence how we think and feel, and that can in turn change laws. But that is not directed by science. People still do and will always hold unscientific beliefs.
    1
  1408.  @reubenvarghese3588  No, the main difference between a human infant and a human fetus is sentience.
    1
  1409.  @reubenvarghese3588  No its not. Show me a fetus that can grow without attaching to a human uterus. Show me a human fetus that can develop out of its embryonic stage without a uterus, placenta and umbilical cord. You are wrong. A fetus NEEDS a mother on a BIOLOGICAL level to develop past an embryo.
    1
  1410. Debby Dooks And this is why religion does not play a part in our laws.
    1
  1411. That doesnt make the woman any less of a hypocrite. Medically, a fetus is not a baby. You can believe it's cold hearted murder, but that doesnt make it so. If you outlawed abortion, you wouldn't save anyone. Those women would go to some back alley and abort it, probably killing herself in the process. Just because you heard it doesnt make it true. The number of children in foster care and adoption centers FAR outnumber the parents willing to take care of them. It isnt selfish to realize you cannot care for something and decide to abort it when it isnt sentient. What IS selfish is forcing an unfit mother to birth and care for a child just to make YOU happy. Morality is subjective.
    1
  1412.  @jonathancochran4310  I dont recall calling it a clump of cells. So what if its human life? Since when did life becoming the deciding factor? The heartbeat is not the fetuses own alone. What you're detecting (if you can at all) is the chambers pumping blood through the umbilical cord. That has everything to do with the mother. Not the fetus. It has no brainstem, therefore it has no ability to have a heartbeat independent of its mother.
    1
  1413. Jonathan Cochran  The fetus's brainstem doesn't even begin to start forming until 10 to 12 weeks. A majority of abortions take place in the first trimester, between 6 and 9 weeks. The fetus is not sentient at this point. Abortion should be off the table when the fetus is no longer dependant on its mother from a biological perspective. When its sentient (around 10 to 12 weeks) that's when abortion should be off the table. You clearly don't actually know how abortions are actually performed and that's not my problem. A fetus isnt a baby until after its born. Life isnt sacred or precious in my opinion. Human beings can easily be replaced. That may sound depressing to you, but its realistic. A non sentient fetus, which is a parasite on its mother, cannot decide for itself, and the mother should not be forced to keep it.
    1
  1414. That would make you pro-choice.
    1
  1415. Mmm no. Most women get abortions because they realize they are not emotionally, physically and financially stable enough to raise one properly. Sure, some women just don't want it, but that's not the majority. And no. My purpose is to live my life. Not procreate to keep going. We have more than enough humans. Unfit parents cannot properly teach right from wrong. Thats why abortion is available.
    1
  1416. Umm no. A fetus's heart can usually be heard at around 4 to 6 weeks. But guess what? The mother is controlling that heartbeat. Because the fetus lacks a brainstem to control its own cardiovascular system. Why do you people place so much value on a heartbeat and not brain activity? The heartbeat doesn't define death. The fetus is a parasite on a woman, stealing her vital nutrients to develop itself. Until sentience is achieved, whether or not you think its right or wrong, a woman has the explicit right to her bodily autonomy. Her right trumps that of a non-sentient parasite. Focus on fixing the problems we currently have and one day, maybe we can see an end to abortion.
    1
  1417.  @morgancurvin7279  And I never said it wasn't alive. It is. But so are the insects you squish and the animals you eat. No, its not a fundamental right. But it is a right with the Roe vs Wade act. Also no. Forcing unfit women to give birth us anti-woman. Violating the right to bodily autonomy is anti-woman. Except your argument falls aparat because the pre-born are not sentient.
    1
  1418.  @morgancurvin7279  Yes, and that is achieved between 10-12 weeks. Whem sentience is achieved, abortion should be off the table in my personal opinion. My point in comparing humans to insects is that is why the topic of life doesn't matter. Sentience does. Murder does not equate to killing. Murder has to be unlawful by definition. Also, when did I say women shouldn't have a baby? That should be no one's choice but the womans. No actually. One point of sex is to reproduce. There are plenty of other reasons behind it. You're not human just because you're alive and abortion is not murder. Killing humans being wrong is a subjective moral opinion. I think allowing a child to be abused and neglected is wrong, which you statistically know is a likelihood when an unfit mother gives birth.
    1
  1419. So rape victims and those with medical issues should suffer and die? Yet another person who doesn't understand what murder is and doesn't get that abortion IS a right.
    1
  1420.  Lizzie Allen  Abortion is never convenient. Its expensive and not covered by insurance and most people ostracize those who have an abortion. Abortion is a right, and should be legal and available to any woman who wants one. In my opinion, it should still be a last resort. But a mother who is unfit will abuse and neglect her child.
    1
  1421.  @remedyprey9505  The right to liberty. That was literally written as the right to oneself. The right to have consent about what happens to your body.
    1
  1422.  @remedyprey9505  If you actually read the definition of murder, then you wouldn't say abortion is murder. Because its not.
    1
  1423. Because some people are incapable of raising a child, and they understand that if they abuse themselves, they're probably going to abuse the child. Abortion should always be a last resort, but should be an option available.
    1
  1424.  @vaguepepper4028  Who are you to determine whether or not it's better to suffer than die? Try listening to hundreds of kids between the ages of 8 and 14 for 8 hours a day scream about how they wish they were aborted.
    1
  1425.  @vaguepepper4028  You cannot miss something you never had. You can't miss living if you never lived.
    1
  1426. See the difference is a fetus is incapable of making decisions, as it is not sentient. No, the mother has decided that abortion is the best thing for the CHILD. She is UNABLE to care for it. Pro-choice can only be made if you have sentience. Anything that lacks sentience cannot make a choice and lacks the capability to care about what choice is made. Thats because theres a difference between killing and murder. A fetus does not have feelings or emotions at the time of most abortions. Aborting a non-sentient fetus is not the same as murdering a sentient child. That fetus is my life and is only developing its own body by being a parasite on me. Also no. The heart does not beat independently from the mother until around 15 weeks, and the heartbeat is first detected usually between 6 and 8 weeks. Sorry, but science doesn't take a stand on the abortion issue. You can't have a beating heart or feelings without a brainstem, which you certainly do not have at conception. Its not a lie to say its a fetus. Thats what it medically is. And on a biological level, everything living is a clump of cells. Its not a baby, by medical or scientific definition, until after birth. No one wants abortion anyways. But they understand why its an option available to people. Start treating the root causes of why women choose to have abortions, and you'll begin to see them decrease. The fetus has no rights. Rights are something only granted to you by a governmental body.
    1
  1427.  Lizzie Allen  No I have not. Although I have heard of it.
    1
  1428. You're not killing a baby. You are terminating the develop of a non-sentient fetus.
    1
  1429.  @Todss12  So what if it will? Why does quality of life not matter? That doesn't seem moral or ethical to me. I'm not choosing for anyone. I'm not a hypocrite who puts humans on a pedestal.
    1
  1430.  @Todss12  Sure, some people would agree with you on that. Many other people would disagree with you on that. When you listen to 8-14 year old children scream every night "I wish I had been aborted," it changes your perspective. The government CAN'T stop abortions. The government can only stop SAFE abortions. If the fetus doesn't care, why should you? Who are you to speak for it?
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  1431. How is abortion not accepting responsibility? I would argue that giving birth to a child you KNOW you cannot take care of properly is irresponsible. You people seem to live in some fantasy world where people could magically take care of children in all situations. That is simply unrealistic. You can't have children? Then go adopt. There are floods of children that are continuously abused and neglected by the system because people only want to adopt certain characteristics. (Race, gender, age etc.)
    1
  1432. I acknowledge a fetus is a human being. I acknowledge a fetus is alive. I am pro-choice.
    1
  1433. Because having sex is not for procreation as it is for health and pleasure for the body and the maturity levels of the brain do not work that way? Sure, abstinence works. But the body doesn't want to stay abstinent. I know many women who were in married relationships, who got pregnant and then were dumped and kicked out. Abortions happen. If you'd like to see them end, focus on treating the causes, not the symptoms
    1
  1434.  @rekamaria5464   randome Ré  No, I didn't say that. I absolutely think you should practice safely, and would prefer if people waited until they were ready. But that is not reality. Yes we are animals. Simple animals, no. But we have that instinctual desires. And some people lack self control. I don't really care what side you lean. I just say my personal opinion.
    1
  1435. A fetus can't make a choice. It has no brainstem or sentience. The right to life (which is an inherent right, not an amendment) does not apply to non-sentient things. A fetus has no rights until a certain period of time.
    1
  1436. So what?
    1
  1437. @Humanity Galatica Nah. We just want rights to our bodies
    1
  1438. @Humanity Galatica I don't really care if its wrong in your subjective opinion. Morality isn't something that can be measured objectively.
    1
  1439. @Humanity Galatica They aren't objective. They're only granted to you because you live under a government that gives them to you. If you honestly believe that, then kindly fuck off because you actually have some kind of anti-social personality disorder. You are actually incapable of feeling empathetic for people individually.
    1
  1440. You always place more value on things that are rare.
    1
  1441.  @strive4252  Humans are animals as well. I, personally, find no inherent value in human life. That being said, abortion shouldn't be a moral issue. It will get you no where. Its a legal and rights issue.
    1
  1442.  @strive4252  No animal is a person but humans are animals. Just because I don't find inherent value in human life doesn't mean I don't consider life valuable. I do. You know what else is under attack? The right to pursue happiness. One right does not overtake another. That is what you are trying to do.
    1
  1443. Mason Officially I agree in trying to restrain yourself and taking precautions, but it's human nature to want sex. A fetus is not a child, and doesn't care if you abort it up until a certain point
    1
  1444. And I wouldn't have cared. Because I didn't have a brainstem to care.
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  1445. Ivyvlogs However the heart doesn't develop completely until 12 weeks and the brainstem/nervous system until 14 weeks.
    1
  1446.  @randomperson529  When did I say being a fetus doesn't make us human? It does. So what? That still doesn't make it murder. By the way, that is not how abortions are performed. 96% are done via pill. Only late term abortions are done via surgery. And late term abortions are done nearly exclusively for medical reasons. That still wouldn't be murder. Yeah, some people do. But a fetus is not a baby. And those that want to have it will (hopefully) love and cherish it. My mother wanted to abort me, and people didn't let her. Now I'm permanently disabled. So given the choice? Would have preferred abortion.
    1
  1447.  @randomperson529  And if they're never mature enough? Or don't want kids?
    1
  1448.  @randomperson529  Not always available and fails
    1
  1449.  @randomperson529  Well thank you. I appreciate that. Its a passion of mine. Its nice to meet people who can agree to disagree on things and remain civil.
    1
  1450.  @ethanm.2411  No you don't. You have confirmation bias and fallacious gymnastics to place God where you see fit.
    1
  1451. You don't have to be a liberal to see why abortion should not be outlawed. You understand that plenty of people are against abortion but are still pro-choice? Pro-choice doesn't just apply to abortion.
    1
  1452.  @MultiBunnyhunter  Why bring up atheism? Just because I don't believe in God doesn't make me a leftist. Also, most of the good people I know are atheists. "Don't make up the best US citizens." How did you come to thay conclusion?
    1
  1453.  @blaecccuebbler7711  I know there are many pro-life individuals who adopt. My point in the comment was there are also many who don't. There are many pro-life organizations that help up to the birth, then completely abandon you afterwards. But you act as if pro-choice people DON'T view things that way, and thats absoulte horseshit. Many pro-choice groups and pro-choice advocates also help and adopt. Happiness is never guaranteed and you are not entitled to anything. Get over it and live in reality.
    1
  1454.  @blaecccuebbler7711  You are not entitled to life. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be protected by law when sentient life occurs. My point is that those rights are not inherent. Everyone can only play the hand they are delt. Do I think every being deserves happiness? Yes. Thats why I'm pro-choice. One wants to demonize people and force people to feel guilty in their inability to raise a child effectively. The other wants people to mind their own damn business.
    1
  1455.  @blaecccuebbler7711  No, no one is entitled to anything. That's not evil. That's simply reality. You work and fight for what you want, including survival. That being said, you DESERVE to have your rights protected. Which includes both LIFE and LIBERTY. You are for one and against the other. That is not reasonable. No, because that isn't true and has never been studied. Those who are more emotional or prone to view changes as traumatic are more likely to suffer from depression. But other women, like myself, while saddened by the decision, ultimately made the correct choice. The purpose of what an abortion does doesn't matter. Guns, war, and capital punishment end the lives of human beings. People die. Its a fact of life. I fully support a woman making the decision of her choosing, and considering all other options beforehand. I do not believe in jumping straight to an abortion. I wasn't speaking to you. I was speaking generally. Pro-life want to see abortions outlawed. Want to see women jailed. Want children to grow up with unfit parents. If you don't like abortion, help solve the root of the problem.
    1
  1456.  @blaecccuebbler7711  Its not evil. Its honest. You're not entitled to anything in this world. Do you deserve it? Yes. But are you entitled to it? No. It has not been studied at any great length. You're just making things up now. Different people react to situations differently. What do you think would happen if you outlaw it? You would make it a crime. What would then happen to a person who had an abortion? They would be jailed. Is that really that complicated? You haven't been around then. Look at Alabama. A woman was charged with manslaughter because she got into a fight and the fight caused her to lose her child. That is what pro-life wants. An end to bodily autonomy. The right choice? How is guilting them into giving birth when they cannot care for a child the right choice? Its not fallacious. Its a fact. You just said you want abortion outlawed.
    1
  1457.  M  No where in the definition of hypocrisy does it specify a timeframe. She is now actively in opposition to an action she participated in. That makes her a hypocrite. You don't have to be currently performing an action you disagree with to be a hypocrite.
    1
  1458.  Lizzie Allen  It doesn't matter. The fact is she opposes something she actively participated in. That makes her a hypocrite. It doesn't matter if your opinions change over time. It doesn't stop you from being hypocritical.
    1
  1459.  M  It is hypocrisy, because she actively participated in an action that she preaches other should not participate in. Changing your mind is fine. That doesn't mean its not hypocritical. Being a hypocrite isn't an inherent negative thing. We all are hypocrites in something. That is not what the defintion of hypocrisy is. Just like murder, you try to change the definition to suit a narrative.
    1
  1460.  Lizzie Allen  It doesn't matter what she said. She doesn't feel like other people should have access to a procedure she was fine with getting. That is hypocritical.
    1
  1461.  Lizzie Allen  Nope. She actively participated is something she now opposes. That makes her a hypocrite.
    1
  1462. Well, you can be objectively wrong. Because its not. No, any smart person knows life begins at conception. Its just not the life that we place value on.
    1
  1463. The definition of murder changes that, moron. Also, not only did you flunk English, you seemed to have flunked biology. A fetus is not a baby.
    1
  1464. Because the body naturally wants sex. Some people make mistakes. Thats why abortion and adoption are available.
    1
  1465.  Apu Apustaja  The use of your uterus is your right. It is not your fault that the fetus cannot live outside of you. And I'm sorry, but whether or not you're terminating the pregnancy because its inconvenient is, frankly, irrelevant.
    1
  1466.  Apu Apustaja  Being .1% different is hardly unique. And all rights are equal. Even if I granted rights to the fetus (which is legally doesn't even have), those rights do not come at the expense of someone else.
    1
  1467.  Apu Apustaja  No, it doesn't. It does not biologically depend on another human after birth. Sure, you could make the argument that its statistically likely to die if you left it in the wild, but that literally doesn't matter. After birth, your rights are no longer being interferred with.
    1
  1468. So...what happens when those precautions fail?
    1
  1469.  @kingorange7739  Question. Are you against abortion in rape and medical cases as well? And are you against euthanasia?
    1
  1470. Until a close friend or relative ends up terminally ill or gets pregnant. Then suddenly you make exceptions.
    1
  1471. So is everyone whose ever advocated for pro-life when the child died at the hands of abuse or neglect. Difference between us is the fetus didn't feel it when the live child did.
    1
  1472. @douglas carpenter Its "different body" is growing because it is attached to the mother an essentially parasitising her. Also no, thats not how genetics works. You are 99% similar genetically to your parents. Yes, you're different. I'll argue that and still be pro-choice. If they're so sought out, why is our system full of young children who have been there since newborn? Better question. Why can't you adopt an older child if you want one so badly? Also no, most children in foster care are there because they are victims of bad parents or guardians. You don't go into foster care if your a bad kid. You go into a dentention facility.
    1
  1473. Because it is a difficult task. Repressing natural urges is unhealthy. Luckily, most people find outlets to cope with that. It's not murder. Murder by definition is unlawful. The fetus is also not developed yes at the time of most abortions. That's just a fact. Quit being a conspiracy theorist.
    1
  1474. Kristiana Marie  That heart beat is being completely controlled by the mother. The fetuses heart cannot beat on its own, seperate from the mother until the brainstem develops. There are women out there, like myself, who cannot take contraception. That's fine that you feel that having an abortion was someone killing your child. That was your decision to make. You do not get a right to make that decision for others. No it's not it's own. It's connected to you and depends on you for survival. It does not separate DNA. Half of its DNA is yours. I'm sorry you regret your decision, but most women want to keep their child. But they also understand that they are unfit to raise them. Double homicide in the case of an unborn fetus is only used if the pregnancy is 5 months or more along. And I agree. By 12 weeks, the brainstem has begun to develop, and after that, the fetus has sentience.
    1
  1475.  @kingorange7739  Actually, yes it is. It would not be hypocrisy if she was only stating that she regretted her decision and why she thinks people should take other routes. But she's not. She is saying you should not have the right to an abortion, which she had the right to. That is hypocrisy. And no. It isn't common. Because most people do not regret their abortion. Having an abortion isn't wrong if you go through to time to make a logical decision.
    1
  1476.  @kingorange7739  Sure, they can. But that would still be hypocrisy. The thing to note is that hypocrisy is not an inherently bad thing. Its to continue being a hypocrite when you're called out that's negative. Also, no. It isn't wrong. Not objectively anyways. And it does nothing to a child. It terminates the development of a non-sentient fetus. I place sentience over the simple fact that its alive and human.
    1
  1477. Many women want to have their tubes tied, but try finding a doctor that will do it before you're in your mid 30's. I'm sorry you've experienced this, but that is her right.
    1
  1478.  @zil5296  That depends entirely on the jurisdiction, how far along she is, and circumstances. Why not place more value on brain activity?
    1
  1479.  @zil5296  You are speaking about late term abortions, which the majority are done for medical purposes. I believe there should be a cutoff for those without medical reason. That doesn't change the fact that a vast majority of abortions are performed non-surgically and before the first trimester. Precautions don't guarantee not getting pregnant apart from abstinence.
    1
  1480.  @JESUSLOVESYOU219  And what situation would that be? It doesn't matter that its "another" body. Its using someone else without consent. Because people have a natural instinct? Just because there's nothing wrong with choosing to have an abortion doesn't mean people want to make that decision. People don't want to have abortions. They just don't feel like there is another alternative. We are just a bundle of cells. And we're living because someone else made a choice for us.
    1
  1481. 2647 LTG.TG If you saw the state of some children who were forced to be born, perhaps you would understand.
    1
  1482. 2647 LTG.TG I know how many fetuses are killed. But they don't care, so why should I? Treat the root causes of why abortions happen if you want to end it.
    1
  1483. 2647 LTG.TG They don't care because they can't care. You can't care if you aren't sentient. Yeah, if there's no quality of life. I have a DNR. No, most abortions happen because a woman cannot care for the child, either physically, financially emotionally or a combination.
    1
  1484. Did you go and ask everyone what their position on abortion was? I doubt it. I've never seen a pro-life person adopt or foster a child. Therefore they must not exist.
    1
  1485. Ryan Doherty While I agree that child support is ridiculous sometimes, you should take some responsibilty as a Father if the mother chooses to keep the child. He made the same dumb mistake she did. There is a difference between financial and physical effects.
    1
  1486. Hypocrisy at its finest
    1
  1487. No, pro-life makes a fool of themselves. Because they pretend they care when they don't and are pushing for the removal of rights. I bet you aren't even pro-life. I bet you have exceptions to abortion, like rape or medical complications. If you're actually pro-life, you'd be against abortion in those circumstances too.
    1
  1488. Its not murder. You don't have to justify anything.
    1
  1489.  @kalebmartinson  No one kills a baby. They terminate a developing fetus. Also God? You realize God actively condones abortion right? Or did you not read the Bible? No. Its not wrong. Not to me at least. If you took it seriously and considered it carefully, I see no issue.
    1
  1490.  @lindze8075  Life does begin at conception. Thats not the point. And yes. Not only does the Bible condone abortion, it outright called for it. A pregnant woman who is injured and aborts the fetus warrants financial compensation only (to her husband), suggesting that the fetus is property, not a person (Exodus 21:22-25). • The gruesome priestly purity test to which a wife accused of adultery must submit will cause her to abort the fetus if she is guilty, indicating that the fetus does not possess a right to life (Numbers 5:11-31). • God enumerated his punishments for disobedience, including "cursed shall be the fruit of your womb" and "you will eat the fruit of your womb," directly contradicting sanctity-of-life claims (Deuteronomy 28:18,53). • Elisha's prophecy for soon-to-be King Hazael said he would attack the Israelites, burn their cities, crush the heads of their babies and rip open their pregnant women (2 Kings 8:12). • King Menahem of Israel destroyed Tiphsah (also called Tappuah) and the surrounding towns, killing all residents and ripping open pregnant women with the sword (2 Kings 15:16). • Isaiah prophesied doom for Babylon, including the murder of unborn children: "They will have no pity on the fruit of the womb" (Isaiah 13:18). • For worshiping idols, God declared that not one of his people would live, not a man, woman or child (not even babies in arms), again confuting assertions about the sanctity of life (Jeremiah 44:7-8). • God will punish the Israelites by destroying their unborn children, who will die at birth, or perish in the womb, or never even be conceived (Hosea 9:10-16). • For rebelling against God, Samaria's people will be killed, their babies will be dashed to death against the ground, and their pregnant women will be ripped open with a sword (Hosea 13:16). • Jesus did not express any special concern for unborn children during the anticipated end times: "Woe to pregnant women and those who are nursing" (Matthew 24:19).
    1
  1491. The fetus is developing off of the mother. It is physically attached and has no developed body of it's own at the time of most abortions. Also no, it's not murder.
    1
  1492.  @JimVonSchmittou  No, the heart isnt beating. The circulatory system hasn't developed fully yet, and it is only developing those organs by leeching off of its mother. I was a failed abortion. And I wouldn't have cared if I was never here. You cannot miss something you never had. Nine month abortions are illegal under federal law. Once the fetus gains sentience, abortion should be off the table in my opinion. Sure, if that actually happened, it would be murder. But it doesnt.
    1
  1493.  @JimVonSchmittou  If you actually had a medical license, you would know that isnt true. The cardiovascular system finishes developing around 8 weeks, however, there is no brainstem to start the heartbeat. If you can hear a heartbeat at 6 weeks, which is rare, you aren't hearing the fetuses heartbeat on it's own. You are hearing the formation of vessels and muscles in a rhythmic pattern. That is the mothers doing, not the fetuses. A fetusesbody cannot do anything on it's own, independent from the mother, until around 12 weeks. That is when the brainstem forms and the fetus starts to develop with help, more than being solely dependent. This is when the cutoff for abortion should be. And most abortions happen way before this.
    1
  1494.  @JimVonSchmittou  Not in pediatrics no. If you're asking if I have an MD then, yes in a sense. Working on one at the minute. My father does.
    1
  1495.  @JimVonSchmittou  Like I said, I just personally dont know any. I never said it wasnt possible. By the way, I have an assisted MD, just not in pediatrics.
    1
  1496.  @blvkisdead9220  I'm quite proud of my MD
    1
  1497.  @blvkisdead9220  Anyone who uses a made up word as an insult has no credibility.
    1
  1498.  @bluediamond4895  A fetus is not a person. And once again, no they are not the same. Murder is unlawful. Killing may or may not be unlawful. Is it killing? Yes. Is it murder? No.
    1
  1499.  @bluediamond4895  No. You're just ignorant who won't even bother to listen to what someone with a different opinion has to say.
    1
  1500.  @bluediamond4895  How do you think you would save lives? If anything, you'd only end more lives. How do you know that? Do you just assume that all pro choice people abort their fetuses? You know what? Good for you. You may be glad to be alive. But there are many out there who aren't. Who talk every day about wishing they had been aborted. Wishing someone would end it for them. I'm a failed abortion, and I was strong enough to survive. That doesn't mean everyone is.
    1
  1501.  @bluediamond4895  I never said it's noble nor did I say it was for their own good. You're pissed off because because I'm right, and you've never seen the harsh truth. I do appreciate my life, but you don't appear to have ever met someone who doesn't
    1
  1502.  @bluediamond4895  Good for you. You have an anecdotal example. Try talking to kids who say everyday they want to die and they wish they had been aborted.
    1
  1503. Beastz E I'd rather her abort me, because adoption agencies are broken. There may be a chance I'm adopted by a loving family. There may also be a chance I'm adopted by an abusive family or kicked out at 18 because I wasn't adopted at all
    1
  1504. Then you aren't pro-life. You're pro-choice. And there's nothing wrong with that.
    1
  1505. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. Birthing a child you are incapable of raising and caring for is irresponsible. Also, good job being a hypocrite.
    1
  1506. So many idiots who don't know what murder means in the comment section.
    1
  1507. Or maybe he just read his Bible where God loves to commit acts of abortion.
    1
  1508. Contraception can't be used by everyone, isn't available everywhere, and fails. So the mother should not only suffer, but the child should suffer after birth? That is vile. Adoption is not always an option either. Prove that life is sacred. Thats just your opinion.
    1
  1509. Truth_is_the _new_hate Nobody is killing a baby. They're killing a fetus.
    1
  1510. Truth_is_the _new_hate A fetus is not a baby. That is medically inaccurate. I don't believe life has intrinsic value. No, abortion is not murder unless abortion is illegal. Murder is the unlawful killing of one human being by another. Abortion is not unlawful, therefor is not murder. Killing? Yes. Murder? No. Abortion almost never happens because it's inconvient. It happens because a woman realizes she cannot care for a child and she has no other alternatives. It's not that she doesn't necessarily want it. It's she doesn't have the means to give it a quality of life.
    1
  1511. Truth_is_the _new_hate So human rights should be overruled. That is what your saying. That will never happen. There is a reason Roe vs Wade exists. Adoption should be considered. But agencies have been turning children away in the last several years. They lack the space and funding to continue to care for children. A fetus doesn't have its own blood, it's own heart or it's own brain at the time of most abortions. So I guess it isn't a life then huh? If you want abortion to end, help pay for medical care and treatment for that fetus. Provide aid and housing to women who can't afford it. Help pay for that child until the mother gets on her feet. Adopt children instead of having your own. I want to see an end to abortion. But apparently, unlike some people, I see why a woman makes the decision to have an abortion.
    1
  1512. Abortion isnt convenient, nor is it a baby. It's a non sentient fetus in most cases.
    1
  1513.  @tripleUstudios69  I dont deny that it's more convenient than having and taking care of the child. That doesn't mean its convenient to have a child you cannot care for. It's a fetus. It's not a baby until after its born. Yes its human. It's a human fetus.
    1
  1514.  @travisjohnson7065  It isn't wrong to my subjective experience. But my view isn't objective, any more than yours is. If we work on different moral frameworks, then something that is right to me will not be right to you. The unborn do not have the right to life any more than an illegal immigrant does, even though I actually agree with you that it should. It doesn't matter what the purpose of my uterus is. My vagina is desgined for taking seed. That doesn't give someone the right to use it without my consent.
    1
  1515.  @travisjohnson7065  Morality is bendable, as it depends on the time, place and emotion of the people building it. If I think stealing is okay, and you think it isn't, there is no objective fact you could use to prove you were right and I was wrong. Objectivity, by definition, is void of any emotional input. Its, by definition, impossible for morality to be objective. You can't seperate human emotions and morality. They are entwined and do change, like you bring up with slavery. Not everyone does have a conscious. Its just something that is expected. I can't feel guilty for something I do not believe is wrong. Period. I do not regret my abortion. I don't feel guilty. I made the best decision for myself at the time. Nothing is illegal about a fetus. I was simply pointing out a comparison that neither of these groups are protected. If I do not give consent for a fetus to use my womb, then it is my constitutional right to abort, just as it would be my constitutional right to press charges against someone who raped me. My rights are being violated. That is the way the law is.
    1
  1516.  Unity 0  The woman has the right to bodily autonomy. A man, or woman, does have the right to leave a relationship at any time. If neither wants a child, they have avenues they can take to leave. A woman has the right to abort. A man has the right to leave and sign away parental rights.
    1
  1517.  Unity 0  No. I don't think a man should be shamed for leaving.
    1
  1518.  Lizzie Allen  Thats absolutely not true. The foster care system is responsible for all state adoptions. If you give your child up to the state, they WILL go into foster care. There are 44,000 children waiting for a state adoption. There are less than 5,000 parents wanting to adopt in the US.
    1
  1519. Hypocrisy at its finest.
    1
  1520.  @ykkinp6681  You'd be fine with abortion in one scenario but demonize it in another. That's hypocritical. If its morally wrong, then its morally wrong in all circumstances.
    1
  1521.  Lizzie Allen  So how about all those women who would have to be jailed for simply having a normal miscarriage?
    1
  1522.  @liamturman  You know why many people owned and thought slavery was okay? The Bible.
    1
  1523.  @liamturman  And it was legal in the first place because people felt it was their God given right to own slaves. Even though it was a violation of the Constitution.
    1
  1524. Rb6 For life So skyrocket the deaths of mothers and fetuses along with deaths related to suicide, child abuse and neglect. Sounds reasonable.
    1
  1525.  @travisjohnson7065  Those laws are already in place. We still have the right to an abortion. But the more we try to help, the less people will feel like abortion is their only option.
    1
  1526.  @travisjohnson7065  I agree. But I do not think outlawing abortion is the way to do it.
    1
  1527. And the point would be...?
    1
  1528.  @mrbuckets11  One, thats not a word. And two, you didn't make a point. So what if its human?
    1
  1529.  @mrbuckets11  A fetus is a ball of cells. I don't recall them saying it wasn't a human. It is. But so what?
    1
  1530.  @mrbuckets11  Again. There is no point. Who cares if abortion kills a non-sentient human? Why does that matter?
    1
  1531. That is a statement needed to be hacked up with evidence. Also, hypothetical situations do not make an argument.
    1
  1532. le foot You a vegan?
    1
  1533. Someone doesn't understand what a fetus is or what the definition of murder is.
    1
  1534.  @blazernfire475  I never said it wasn't. It is. But since when did life matter? You dont give a shit if you slaughter a cow or stomp a spider. That's life. The argument isnt about life. It's about sentience.
    1
  1535.  @blazernfire475  I find it highly unlikely that you've never killed an insect that has come into your home. I'm not bringing in veganism. I'm making a point. If life matters so much to you, then you should have a problem with taking all life. Otherwise, you're just a hypocrite.
    1
  1536. ayan Nuur Its not murder. The fetus doesn't care if you abort it. It physically can't care. No, you should be thinking about the future. That's why women choose to make the decision to abort. Care about the quality of life a child will have please
    1
  1537. Just because someone supports the right to have an abortion does not mean they want to see children be aborted, idiot. A fetus is not a child. Theres a biological difference.
    1
  1538.  @meka610  As did you, in resorting to calling me a child killer. You had already made it clear you had no interest in discussion. By the way, being or acting idotic in a particular subject is not a bad thing. Your first comment did exactly the same thing, so I don't know what your on about. And yes it does, because it shows you have a lack of an understand for basic biology.
    1
  1539. María Leonor Cobo So it's shitty that I stand up for my autonomy over my own body?
    1
  1540. Pro choice does not mean pro abortion. You're killing a non-sentient fetus that happens to have human DNA. "That person would have a life, have a brain, memories etc." That is not true in all circumstances, and is not inherently a good thing.
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  1541. Except it makes you a hypocrite. You had the right to abort, but you want to take that right away from EVERYONE because YOU had a bad experience. Not only does that make you extremely hypocritical, that implies EVERYONE will have a bad reaction when that isn't true.
    1
  1542. @Immortal 833 No it isn't. That's not an opinion. That's a fact.
    1
  1543.  @justanothercommenter618  Murder: The unlawful killing of one human being by another. 1. A fetus is not legally considered a human being (something even I, being pro-choice, do not agree with) 2. Abortion is not unlawful. Killing does not always equate to murder.
    1
  1544.  Lizzie Allen  Being for or against abortion has nothing to do with beibg Christian. Thats a no true scotsman fallacy. Also the Bible condones abortion.
    1
  1545. Gabe Kiser So force a mother who is emotionally, financially or physically unable to handle a child, birth it and potentially either die or abuse It? You don't even bother looking at it from other perspectives do you?
    1
  1546.  @blaecccuebbler7711  Nope, because you would discredit it and I am not you. If you want to research, its out there. Read some studies on both ends of the spectrum and deduct your conclusions from there.
    1
  1547.  @blaecccuebbler7711  I'm not incapable. I choose not to go down that road anymore. If you want the information, its out there.
    1
  1548.  @codnoob1152  That is absolute bullshit. A woman would just go to your local back alley to get an abortion, probably resulting in both the mother and the fetuses death.
    1
  1549.  @bigmacwithoutcheese8851  No, I know it happens. Because I fucking deal with the corpses. Its like a druggie. You outlaw all drugs, they'll just find a different way to get their supply.
    1
  1550.  @bigmacwithoutcheese8851  Just because I'm pro choice doesn't mean I'm pro abortion. I would love to live in a world where abortions did not happen, and every child could be well cared for. "Only 1% of abortions end in back alley abortions" Bullshit. If that statistic is true, that's reported abortions. Do you really think every back alley abortion is reported? No. And just because the abortions dont happen in Poland doesn't mean they dont happen. Women will just leave for a country that has abortions. Yes, I've been around drugs. I've been around both living and dead people who use drugs. I'm not being deceitful. Have I seen someone actually have a back alley abortion? No. Have I seen bodies of women who tried to have a back alley abortion an exaungated themselves? Yes. So don't tell me it doesn't happen.
    1
  1551.  @bigmacwithoutcheese8851   Big Mac without cheese  I wish people didn't get abortions, but I dont believe banning abortion is the way to end it and support the right to choose. Does that make more sense? Just because I support the right to choose doesn't mean I'm happy to see fetuses aborted. So no. I'm not "pro abortion." Your statistics mean nothing without the evidence to back it up. You won't "save their babies". They'll just abuse and neglect them until they either die or are put in the system. Pay any person the right amount, and they'll do anything. I'm not necessarily talking about "underground abortion clincs". I use the term "back alley abortions" generally to mean any abortion procedure not done by a licencensed physician. Hell, you can probably pay them off too to give you one illegally. A woman who cannot raise a child, and is hellbent on abortion, will find a way. Considering 50% of crimes go unreported, yeah. You can get away with it. That woman doesn't WANT to kill her fetus in over 90% of cases. She feels she MUST! Anyone who has been victimized is a victim, criminal or not. This kind of stuff is one of the reasons I became an FI. To try and help end this.
    1
  1552.  @bigmacwithoutcheese8851  ummm yes. Many mothers who are forced to give birth to children they cannot care for end up neglecting them. If you cannot care for yourself, how can you possibly care for a child? A fetus is not a baby, biologically or medically. The issue shouldn't be life. It should be sentientence. A fetus, at the time of most abortions, cannot care what happens to it, as it lacks a brainstem. Because that's what it is. It's a fetus. That's the technical term for it. Medically, it isnt considered a baby until after its born. That's the appropriate term, so that's what I call it. I'm not buying into propaganda by calling a fetus what it medically is. I'm sorry if you feel that dehumanizes the potential life, but that's not my problem. Genocide? You're comparing human sentient beings with non-sentient developing humans. Big difference. No, what I'm saying is there are people who will take advantage of a person's weakness to make a profit, no matter if it puts the person's life in danger. Most people dont perform "self inflected abortions" because they dont always work, and you can severely damage yourself in the process. That is lunacy. Yes, humans have a natural instinct for survival. That doesn't mean everyone listens to it. If that were the case, suicide and self harm would not exist. No, I'm not doing anything illegal. Using a screen name is not illegal, nor is providing fake information to a website you dont pay for. (Even though none of the information I gave was fake) I majored in criminal justice, and have a bachelors in forensic science. In 2017, only 64% of murders and negligent homicides were cleared, so dont tell me 90% of murders get solved. That's just lies. Not only that, but other violent crimes (bulgarly, assault, rape) have an ever LOWER clear rate, if they're even reported at all. No one is misleading you. You just either dont have the energy or time to learn these things.
    1
  1553.  @bigmacwithoutcheese8851   Would that make it easier for you? I could call you a homo sapien if you preferred. You want to call it dehumanizing unborn children. I want to stop see you children die to abuse and be mistreated by the system. Sorry that you laugh when I call it what is is. I know some of the law I break. I'm just currently not breaking any. If you've ever speeded, youve broke the law. Well it's not my fault you flunked college. College teaches you a lot, even more when you can get hands on experience. So yeah. I do know what I'm talking about. You really think that women want to have abortions or jump to it as a first choice. That's no my problem that you're misinformed. You're peo life up until you're 14 year old sister wants an abortion. Then you'll be all for it. Only when its convenient for you.
    1
  1554. Big Mac without cheese  I'm not religious and dont believe in demons. And it's not convenient to have an abortion. It's a lot of money. It's a procedure health insurance doesn't cover. Its emotionally and physically demanding. A fetus doesn't care if you abort it. A fetus isnt sentient. There is a difference between a baby and a fetus. The gorilla outcry surprised me too. Fine. Then you pay for the child for 18 years. You give it the physical and emotional care it needs. You guys love to preach about abortion, but would never consider fostering or adopting a child. I care about the issue as well. I've paid women to have the neo natal care necessary JUST so they wouldn't have an abortion. If I can talk someone out of it, I will. Most of the pro life people don't look at both sides. I DO look at both sides. I see how horrible an abortion can be. But I also see what happens to a child left in the care of an unfit parent. Sexually immoral? Really? That only exists for religious people. You're not a whore for getting an abortion. You use these words like you know what they mean. It's not cowardly, degenerate or anti human to realize you cannot provide for a child. Abortion is just another responsible decision. You people are hypocrites.
    1
  1555. Big Mac without cheese  Yes I have. I use it on a fairly regular basis, especially when dealing with comatose patients. I'm sorry you've never taken a biology, anatomy or early childhood class. I've never asked a pregnant woman "hows your baby". Its always "how are you?" No, I'm glad it was legal. Because if it wasn't, I know women who would have potentially harmed themselves permentaly to have an abortion. Or they would have had the baby and then neglected it or abused it. Depends on where you live. And that should certainly be looked into before an abortion. Very very few women consider abortion as a first option. It's often a last resort. It's not free to give a child up for adoption. Adoption agencies have turned children away, because they lack the space and funding necessary. Not only that, but there's no guarentee that child will ever be adopted. What happens then? They're kicked out at 18 with nothing. You think it's a lot better than being killed? Then talk to the children every day who say "I wish I had been aborted". Talk to children who end up committing suicide because it's so bad. You're right. Successful people have come out of foster care. Serial killers and suicide victims have also come out of foster care. According to what? The Bible? They often don't think about the consequences, but that doesn't mean they dont care. Sex is a natural instinct, and some people cannot take birth control. A whore is someone who sleeps for money. If you're sleeping with one person, you're not a whore. Murder is by definition unlawful. So no, abortion is not murder, at least in the states. I can never understand that either. Especially when they're sentient and born. But you would rather watch them be neglected after they're born than abort them when they aren't sentient. Sorry. But you're the one who sounds brainwashed. They aren't selfish. They cared enough about their unborn to make a difficult choice because they could not handle raising it. Not all humans have a natural urge to love. I don't believe in God, so I can't say they will punish anyone. You really shouldn't be so judgemental.
    1
  1556. The fetus is attached to the woman. It does not live and survive without its host mother for a period of time. Abortion is not murder.
    1
  1557.  M  Its not abelist to state a fact. You really shouldn't play the abelist card with a person who was disabled by people like you. Tell me. You get upset when hospitals perform slow codes? When they perform DNR's? Thats the exact same principle.
    1
  1558. Except sceintists and MD's aren't usually pro life and would never argue for that.
    1
  1559. No, we shouldn't normalize sex until marriage. Because sex until marriage is a terrible concept. You should just normalize what sex is, and why its so important to be as safe as you can, whether or not that includes abstinence. No, children have broken homes because feelings change. If you wait until marriage, what happens if you aren't sexually compatible? Then you have to go through an entire legal process instead of just breaking up. Guess what? 34% of couples who get divorced waited until marriage and divorced because they were not sexually compatible. That's millions of people.
    1
  1560.  Lizzie Allen  Your turning a legal issue into a moral one. Stop it. Abortion is not a moral issue.
    1
  1561. Life doesn't matter. Sentience does.
    1
  1562.  Lizzie Allen  Your rights end where someone else's begins.
    1
  1563. @Barrier Boy Yes I do.
    1
  1564. @Barrier Boy No, I'm just the FI who understands biology and law.
    1
  1565. @Barrier Boy What would you like to know?
    1
  1566. Considering most pro-choice people draw the line at sentience, I fail to see your point. Its human no matter what. That's not the issue.
    1
  1567. Proof? Give me a piece of evidence that someone celebrates killing a baby. By the way, a fetus isnt a baby
    1
  1568.  @akal8775  Okay, even if that is true, that's not a baby. That's a fetus. And there is a biological difference. No, I have never heard of that. Yes, I do know there are women who use abortions as birth control. But they are no where near the majority.
    1
  1569.  @akal8775  It is a fetus. It's not a baby, either medically or biologically, until after it is born. Yeah, if its sentient, which abortion should be off the table at that point. It cannot feel pain if it lacks a brainstem. I think you're the one who needs more research.
    1
  1570.  @akal8775  No, I believe in science. Some abortions do occur when the fetus is sentient. Though that is not the majority. I would go back and read my comments, because I did answer your question. Yes, a fetus is a fetus all the way up until its born. That doesn't mean I believe in late term abortions. Jesus Christ learn to read.
    1
  1571. When it comes to an abortion, its not the man's decision. He's not the one who the fetus is using. And there are many comments stating the man should have no opinion at all.
    1
  1572. Not really, considering a majority of those pictures are faked and have been proven so. Pro-death huh? You a vegan? If not, you're pro-death as well. So I guess we're even. Sentience should be when abortion is off the table. If life does not matter to you when it comes to plants or animals, life should not matter to you when it comes to humans.
    1
  1573.  @niceguy5501  A non-sentient fetus is incapable of having rights, because it isnt sentient. By the way, you don't have rights because of some natural force. You have rights because the particular country you live in says you do. Innate human rights do not exist. If you want to end abortion, outlawing it is not the solution. Treat the causes of why a woman chooses to go through an abortion and then maybe we can end them. Also, learn what murder actually is.
    1
  1574.  @bigmacwithoutcheese8851  Nah, sorry that you have a problem with facts.
    1
  1575.  @raycohollis9417  The irony in that first sentence is astounding. They only thing required to be a Christian is a belief in the Christian God and the belief in Jesus Christ as rhe messiah. Nothing else. And I hate to break it to you, but a Catholic fits that definition. Its not. Objectively. It doesn't fit the definition of murder. Murder is a legal term.
    1
  1576. Because some people can't take birth control or it is not available. And even when it is, it is not 100% effective. By the time most people find out their pregnant, the morning after pill doesn't do anything. And taking a morning after pill every time you have unprotected sex can destroy your body. Abortions on average cost between $400-$500. I don't jump on the "forced vaccine" wagon because it is not my place to violate anothers Constitutional rights (something, I should mention, a fetus does not have until a certain stage.) Its people who are pro-life that do not care about protecting lives. To them, it doesn't matter how shitty a life and future the child will have. Being born is so worth it. There are worse things than death, and I argue that in some instances, it is better to have never lived at all then suffer through misery.
    1
  1577. If thats what you think, then you aren't pro-life by definition. Pro-life is against abortion regardless of circumstances.
    1
  1578. You a Christian? If so, your God is very much pro-choice.
    1
  1579.  @ethanm.2411  No its not. Not unless you're going to ignore the Bible.
    1
  1580.  @ethanm.2411  Ten biblical episodes and prophecies provide an unequivocal expression of God's attitude toward human life, especially the ontological status of "unborn children" and their pregnant mothers-to-be. Brief summaries: • A pregnant woman who is injured and aborts the fetus warrants financial compensation only (to her husband), suggesting that the fetus is property, not a person (Exodus 21:22-25). • The gruesome priestly purity test to which a wife accused of adultery must submit will cause her to abort the fetus if she is guilty, indicating that the fetus does not possess a right to life (Numbers 5:11-31). • God enumerated his punishments for disobedience, including "cursed shall be the fruit of your womb" and "you will eat the fruit of your womb," directly contradicting sanctity-of-life claims (Deuteronomy 28:18,53). • Elisha's prophecy for soon-to-be King Hazael said he would attack the Israelites, burn their cities, crush the heads of their babies and rip open their pregnant women (2 Kings 8:12). • King Menahem of Israel destroyed Tiphsah (also called Tappuah) and the surrounding towns, killing all residents and ripping open pregnant women with the sword (2 Kings 15:16). • Isaiah prophesied doom for Babylon, including the murder of unborn children: "They will have no pity on the fruit of the womb" (Isaiah 13:18). • For worshiping idols, God declared that not one of his people would live, not a man, woman or child (not even babies in arms), again confuting assertions about the sanctity of life (Jeremiah 44:7-8). • God will punish the Israelites by destroying their unborn children, who will die at birth, or perish in the womb, or never even be conceived (Hosea 9:10-16). • For rebelling against God, Samaria's people will be killed, their babies will be dashed to death against the ground, and their pregnant women will be ripped open with a sword (Hosea 13:16). • Jesus did not express any special concern for unborn children during the anticipated end times: "Woe to pregnant women and those who are nursing" (Matthew 24:19). Your God is not against abortion.
    1
  1581.  @ethanm.2411  That will always be your excuse. Defend your monster God all you want.
    1
  1582.  @ethanm.2411  We've had this debate over and over. You have your beliefs and I have mine.
    1
  1583.  @ethanm.2411  Yes he is. Whether or not you say so or not. That text is clearly written. You are the one using apologetics to try and claim he's not. You may take these as prophetic, but you do not know how the Bible is supposed to be interpreted.
    1
  1584.  @ethanm.2411  You will always accuse people of taking anything you do not agree with as "out of context". That doesn't make you right. Quit being an apologist and making excuses for the "evils" your God commits.
    1
  1585.  @ethanm.2411  No, that is certainly your opinion. And many historians disagree with you as well. Some Christians write the Bible off entirely as metaphorical. Almost all Christians I know are pro-choice. In fact, only the extremely fundamental ones I have met are pro-life. But thats just my experience.
    1
  1586.  @scarlettsilva9001  I have read it. All you do is use apologetics to get around the verses that you disagree with. I won't repent to a God I don't believe in nor for a heaven I don't believe in.
    1
  1587.  @scarlettsilva9001  I was a Christian for over 20 years. What makes your version of the Bible the correct one? No, I did read the Bible. Thats what made me an atheist.
    1
  1588.  @tandavkoushik4531  An entity doesn't have a right to exist on a natural level. You only have a right to life because the government says you do. I believe its ethically immoral to force a sentient being to do something they are unequipped to handle. No, you're not entitled to anything. At least not be a natural law. Now, I believe in protecting those that are sentient. Sentience should be the factor, not life.
    1
  1589.  @tandavkoushik4531  Sentient life is a fundamental right. A non-sentient fetus has the incapablity of making a choice because it lacks a brainstem. Unlawful deprivation of human life would be murder. Abortion is not unlawful. Theres a reason why we allow abortions.
    1
  1590. God certainly supported abortion. Look at Hosea where he commanded his people to rip out the unborn and dash them against stones or how he punished the Israelites by killing their pregnant woman and unborn. Fuck off with your sermon.
    1
  1591. In 2017, a study concluded that 20.8% of abortions were for medical reasons. While that is not the majority, it's a far greater number than 1%. Also, an abortion done for a non medical reason doesn't mean they were having protected sex. 12% of abortions in 2017 were performed because of failed protection. You aren't being irresponsible by having an abortion. Having a child you cannot properly care for (called Neglect) is irresponsible. Just because you personally don't believe it isnt your body doesn't mean you are anatomically correct. That fetus is a biological parasite on you for a time and depends on stealing your vital nutrients to grow and develop. Abortions have never been proven to be painful to the fetus, unless you are having one on the tail end of the cutoff period. Most abortions take place in the first trimester, before a fetus develops a functioning brainstem. No brainstem? No pain. I think you need to look at the majority. A majority of abortions happen because the woman is abandoned by the father and family, and finds herself unable to care for the child physically, mentally or financially. Rarely is abortion used as birth control. "Correct moral lessons" is completely subjective. Aborting a fetus is not murder. Abortion should be off the table when the fetus is sentient.
    1
  1592.  @lillianaluna-martalucrezia6407  I disagree that just because you have unprotected sex and then choose an abortion, you are using it as birth control. Abortions usually happen because the woman is abandoned as a result of pregnancy. Not to say it doesn't happen, but it is not the majority. No, it is a growing human. That doesn't stop it from being a parasite. A parasite is anything that depends on something for survival without doing anything beneficial to the host. I think abortion should always be a last resort. Would it have a terrible life? No. Not necessarily. However, an unfit mother forced to raise a child increases its likelihood for having an unstable environment and growing up in foster care. I don't believe anything has intrinsic value. But that is just personally my belief. No, it is not a baby, either medically or biologically. A fetus does not become a baby until after it is born. That is not an opinion. If you honestly believe that, I believe you are delusional and cannot face reality. I also think you are hypocritical, who puts humans on a pedestal.
    1
  1593. Foung Vang That doesn't apply to everyone. She got lucky. Not everyone does.
    1
  1594.  @unapologeticpatriot6504  Being painful depends on who you ask. Just because its painful for me, doesn't mean most feel that way
    1
  1595.  @unapologeticpatriot6504  Because I had a later term abortion. And that fetus was sentient.
    1
  1596. Yeah, that advice doesn't help after the fact.
    1
  1597.  @user-ph1dm4hg5v  Nope. Women have a right to an abortion.
    1
  1598. Then I wouldn't be here and I would not have been able to care. You can't miss something you never had. By the way, that's not the thinking process used in a majority of cases.
    1
  1599. Anything with developing living cells is alive. But life doesn't (or shouldn't) matter. Sentience should.
    1
  1600. Then you aren't pro-life. Pro-life is against abortion in ANY circumstance. Period.
    1
  1601. No, not necessarily.
    1
  1602. It does have rights. The issue stands from the fact that all rights are equal. If a woman doesn't consent to a pregnancy, then the fetuses right to life does not exceed her right to liberty. Abortion already has cutoff points in a majority of the country, and most abortions are performed in the first trimester.
    1
  1603.  @BIGjeffSanDiego  Thats...how most abortions are performed. The woman is given a pill which forces the body to miscarry. The mother is then given a D&C, as you would with a natural miscarriage, and the mother can then decide what to do with the fetus. I have several friends who had abortions that still keep the remains as a reminder to try to never go down that road. Life begins at conception. Thats just a scientific fact. We, however, focus more on sentience.
    1
  1604.  @BIGjeffSanDiego  The fetus will not survive outside the womb anyways. The youngest record of a survival birth was at 20 weeks. That's way after the vast majority of abortions take place (about 62% taking place between 8 and 10 weeks) By the way, stop using the term "murder". Abortion isn't murder. Words have established definitions for a reason.
    1
  1605.  @BIGjeffSanDiego  Because there's no point spending more money for a procedure that won't work. Especially when inducing a woman that early could have serious problems for her.
    1
  1606. I think you meant pro-life. Not pro-choice.
    1
  1607.  @LivBee.  No problem~
    1
  1608.  @kingorange7739  Why should someone who is unhappy be forced to face life?
    1
  1609.  @kingorange7739  Your claim was that someone should be forced to survive and try to be successful, even when they're miserable.
    1
  1610.  @kingorange7739  I'm asking if thats what you believe, since that is what you implied. I do not want to misrepresent you.
    1
  1611. Nayelie Camacho It is my choice. The fetus is attached to me and is feeding off my nutrients. It has nothing to do with life. It has to do with sentience. Condoms fail sometimes. Some are rapes. Some have medical issues.
    1
  1612. Nayelie Camacho A fetus can't suffer because it doesn't have a brainstem. It is physically incapable of feeling at the time of most abortions. It doesn't matter if it was a mistake I committed. Even though I would never have one, I respect a woman's right to get one if she cannot raise that child.
    1
  1613. Fernando Suárez It's a human instinct that some people can't or don't want to repress.
    1
  1614. When the killing is unlawful and the person in question has their Constitutional rights violated. Abortion meets neither of these standards.
    1
  1615.  @ethanm.2411  Not to me morally. But my morality is subjective. When its sapient and sentient, it then should have rights.
    1
  1616. Infinity 436 A fetus is not a human being. It is a developing human being. It isn't about being lazy. Raising a child is the hardest and most expensive thing you can do. Once again, abortion isn't murder. They're making a hard decision to abort the fetus when it is unable.tp feel as oppose to have it and neglect it. Good thing you don't control the law
    1
  1617. Infinity 436 Murder is by definition unlawful. So abortion does not meet the legal definition of murder. Put it in the foster care system? Do you know how broken it is? Have you ever spoken to children who say they would have rather been aborted because they were neglected and abused? You are not guaranteed to be adopted at all, let alone by a loving family. Many people take in children only to collect the checks they get from the government.
    1
  1618.  @zahrapirani6622  I agree with you.
    1
  1619. Abortions are never promoted. You are actively looked down upon and demonized for having an abortion. While I agree that fooling around carries consequences, that should not then be placed on the child. I disagree with your assumption. I don't think parents would teach their kids any more about sex, because we live in a religious world where the idea of sex for anything but procreation is wrong. I think more people would not want to be in a committed relationship.
    1
  1620.  @cobaltdistortion421  They aren't showing the reality of abortions. They brought in 2 hypocrites who have had abortions and now preach against them because of their own guilt. Guess what dear? Not everyone who has an abortion goes through severe trauma. That's subjective. Just because you've never had an abortion doesn't mean you cannot speak on the subject. That's like saying I can't criticize food because I'm not a chef. Everyone that has gone through it has a different subjective opinion. I know many women that have had abortions, and they don't regret it. They may regret the situation that they were in that led to the abortion, but they do not regret having one.
    1
  1621. Its never murder unless it is done illegally. You wanna know another reason to have an abortion? If you know you cannot care for it.
    1
  1622. So...you're a hypocrite who doesn't give a shit about the quality of life for the child.
    1
  1623. No, it literally means someone else's right to life is more important than someone else's right to bodily autonomy, which is a dangerous precedent. That's basically saying you should be forced into organ donation regardless of your wishes if it save's another's life.
    1
  1624. Hypocritical pro lifers.
    1
  1625.  @parthenon5106  No, that wasn't it. But nice try
    1
  1626.  @parthenon5106  The hypocrisy is claiming to care about life when you don't. You care so much about life that you completely write off quality. That is hypocritical.
    1
  1627.  @parthenon5106  He doesn't if he's pro-life. He's fine with children being raised in unloving abused households and people not being able to die on their terms. That is NOT caring about life.
    1
  1628.  @parthenon5106  Pro-life is anti-euthansia by definition. If no one is fine with children being raised in unloving households, then no one would be against abortion UNTIL those problems were fixed. But they aren't. They offer no solutions other than "let them be born and hope for the best".
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  1629. After the fetus is sentient, abortion should be illegal.
    1
  1630. But thats the problem. The assumption that people would turn out like they did doesn't justify taking away a right. There a many people out there that do not regret their abortion for one reason or another.
    1
  1631. Yeah, rarely does that happen. Late term surgical abortions are almost always done because of a medical reason.
    1
  1632.  @zombieslaya780  Except it isn't murder and the law does not recognize it as such.
    1
  1633.  @zombieslaya780  No it isn't. Who cares if its human? You aren't special. Killing =/= Murder.
    1
  1634.  @justanothercommenter618  No its not dumbass. Learn the definition of words before you use them. Also, humans aren't on some pedestal. I know the consequences of women not having autonomy. By all means, abortion should be a last resort. But it should be on the table.
    1
  1635. Nicolas Carnogursky Forcing a mother to give birth to a child she can't handle so it grows up in an unhealthy and unstable home is wrong. Also, get a dictionary and look up what murder means.
    1
  1636. As someone who was neglected, unloved, and a failed abortion, I would still be pro-choice.
    1
  1637. Not by name. But Hosea talks a lot about cutting the unborn out of a mothers womb and slaughtering pregnant women. So...pretty sure the Bible condones abortion.
    1
  1638. Murder, by definition is unlawful. So no it is not murder. Medically and scientifically, a fetus is not a child at the time of most abortions.
    1
  1639. Because its just as easy as "not getting pregnant" Condoms aren't effective all the time. Pills are not effective all the time, are not available to everyone, and cannot be taken by some. That is not how 96% of abortions are performed. You're talking about late term abortions, which are nearly exclusively done for medical reasons. If you want to talk biology, its still MY body. A fetus cannot develop without a womans uterus. Period. Guess what? America isn't the only place where abortion is legal. And I'm proud to live in a country where my rights as a woman matter. They are equal.
    1
  1640. I'm pro-choice. Feel free to ask me anything.
    1
  1641. Mathilde Young An unborn fetus is not a child. It's a parasitic lump of cells
    1
  1642. Mathilde Young Not all parasites are of a different species. A parasite is simply a being that depends on another for survival. Ummm no. Fingers and toes yes, but it's only just beginning to develop organs. Most abortions take place between 8 and 10 weeks.
    1
  1643.  @youawesome2068  I've never said that for anything other than public schooling, because your children ARE a risk without vaccines. Whether or not YOU get vaccinated or your child does should ultimately be up to you. I do, however, believe you should then be held liable for anything that happens from that choice.
    1
  1644. @Ankh Because at the time I'm talking about, they are sentient beings capable of thought and feeling? You make it sound like I'm a person who believes everyone should just unending freedom when it comes to abortion.
    1
  1645.  @mewesquirrel6720  Strawman. Abortion isn't murder, and trying to compare the 2 is disingenuous.
    1
  1646.  @mewesquirrel6720  Depends on your subjective morality.
    1
  1647. @Ankh Because your sentience is what defines your personhood. Not the mere fact your alive. Those who are sleeping still have sentience. Comatose people have a spectrum. But this is why there is no pushback to someone else's choice to take you off life support.
    1
  1648.  Tim Account  Yes it is. It develops because it is attached to them.
    1
  1649. Because condoms are always effective...
    1
  1650. Robbins' Nest There is a very big difference between a born, sentient infant and an unborn non sentient fetus.
    1
  1651.  Lizzie Allen  That is absoutely not true and putting people on high blood pressure medication is the last thing you should do to someone with a clotting issue.
    1
  1652.  Lizzie Allen  And since when did life matter?
    1
  1653.  Lizzie Allen  Except abortion isn't murder by the established definition of murder. Yes, we do have laws on the books about killings. None about abortion though, until Alabama. Which won't do anything at the federal level.
    1
  1654. Aries 90 A fetus is not an infant nor does it suffer during most abortions. Sex is a human nature, and yes I agree with precautions, but to deny that human nature is unhealthy. Treat the root causes for why a woman would have an abortion. Only then can we end them
    1
  1655. Tamang Tman The fetus doesn't care if it's aborted. It's not fair to force an unhealthy an unhappy life on it.
    1
  1656. Aries 90 Those are what we call outliers, and rarely happen. Yes, you will always find people like that, but to end abortion for everyone because of this isn't fair either. Having an abortion is taking responsibilty. It's coming to terms with the fact that you are not in the frame of mind to raise a child. That takes guts.
    1
  1657. Aries 90 Murder is unlawful, which abortion is not. So no, abortion is not murder. Mind your own business. Sin only applies to those who are religions. The fetus doesn't give a shit, so why should you? You aren't pro life. You're pro birth.
    1
  1658. Aries 90 That's exactly what you would do if you banned abortions
    1
  1659. If their mother had never gave birth to them, I wouldn't know them. So that point is irrelevant. Understanding you cannot care for a child is not cowardly nor is it running away. It is taking responsibility, just as any other choice is. "What ifs" hold no ground. You also could be the worse mother and neglect and abuse that child, a common occurance to women forced or guilted into giving birth.
    1
  1660. You do realize that the government doesn't pay for abortions? That's against federal law. If your argument is that they fund places that provide abortions, such as Planned Parenthood, they do more than just abortions.
    1
  1661.  @bluecollarnobody4217  Yeah. You keep buying all that conspiracy theory nonsense.
    1
  1662. Really? I don't believe you. And if you were, it's probably because you picked a fight and were disrespectful, like you're being now. I don't respect your opinion. Its abusive, neglectful, irresponsible, hypocritical and violates rights. However, I respect you as a person, and your right to hold an opinion.
    1
  1663.  @wrightway3382  If someone wasn't bothering you, and you confront them, its no wonder people are nasty to you. Your comment was disrespectful, so I simply called you out on it. I do not believe that conversation happened. I'm sorry, but when something doesn't make sense, its usually not true. Especially when you argue a legal position, which is what abortion should be, as a moral argument.
    1
  1664.  @wrightway3382  The disrespect came from your use of the term "pro-abortion". You made it sound like all, or even most, pro-choice are celebrating abortions. And I was someone on the completely opposite end. My mother was guilted into not having an abortion when she knew she couldn't support me. And because of that, I was abused and neglected, eventually being permanently disabled. I will never be normal because of it. I wish you luck in life. I just want you to understand both sides, which now, I'm sure you do.
    1
  1665.  @wrightway3382  No I read them. I just received notifications for them. And no. That comment was meant for you.
    1
  1666. @Ankh So I guess you would say that to a soldier, hmm? They take human life.
    1
  1667. @Joxar You are comparing sentient children, to non-sentient fetuses. And actually, that analogy doesn't even work, since most casualties in war are innocent civilians.
    1
  1668. @Joxar And that is something you can't prove in the slightest. Your argument is a strawman
    1
  1669. @Joxar You're the one who isn't living in reality. Oh also? Its not murder. Murder is a legal term. Try learning what words mean.
    1
  1670. @Joxar Lol no. That is absolutely not what murder is. Murder is the unlawful killing of one person by another. Also, no it doesn't. The "6 week fetal heartbeat" is literally the flutter of neurons that will become the pacemaker for the fetus' future heart. It is in no way comparable to an actual heartbeat that is caused by a fully formed heart. The heart does not develop until 10 weeks, and does not beat on its own until around 18 weeks. A fetus is what it is. A fetus is any unborn mammal. Abortion, in my opinion, is off the table when sentience is gained, which is around 15 weeks. That is well after 97% of abortions.
    1
  1671. Probably because pro-life individuals call us murderers because we support the rights of women and the dying. Sad that you don't.
    1
  1672.  @abicadabby  Pro-life support taking away the rights of the mother to her uterus and the right to die from the terminally ill under the guise of protecting a "baby" that is incapable of feelings.
    1
  1673. Sex is a healthy and natural part of life, and to deny that is unhealthy. I can't take contraception. Does that mean I should never be allowed to have Sex? Abortion is almost never the first option. Quit being a hypocrite.
    1
  1674. Kelsie E. It's not the hormones I can't take. The actual drug that makes the contraception pill I cannot have. You're being a hypocrite by choosing which situations abortions are acceptable. If it's not okay for a women to have an abortion, than its not okay period. Incest and rape  shouldn't matter. Very rarely is abortion ever considered a first option, nor is it a form of birth control. Most doctors even limit the number of abortions they will perform on a patient.
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  1675. The Whale Bear It's about sentience not life. Are you a vegan? Murder, by definition, is unlawful. So no. Abortion is not murder.
    1
  1676. The Whale Bear While i agree that 20 weeks is quite late, 8 weeks has barely started to develop organs or a nervous system. Most abortions take place between 8 and 10 weeks. So what if not all animals are human? I think if your pro life and not vegan or you are pro capital punishment makes you a hypocrite. Then again, I suppose everyone is a hypocrite.
    1
  1677. The Whale Bear a) You're full of shit. The nervous system hasn't developed by the time of most abortions, therefore a fetus can not feel pain. It has NO BRAIN, NO NERVOUS SYSTEM, and only the beginning of a brainstem. B) No shit. C) But you're pro life. Why are humans lives more important than other animals? That makes you a hypocrite. If the life of a fetus is precious, so is the life of an animal, which actually is sentient and can actually feel pain. D) Then once again, you don't give a shit about life. You only care about an unborn parasite and not people who actually are sentient and need help. Capital Punishment is a whole othet issue we can get into, but we won't.
    1
  1678. The Whale Bear 1) No. You are misconstrueding what I said. By 8 weeks they are barely developing nerve endings and still have not developed a brain. No brain or neural network? No ability to feel pain. 2) Simple response. So what? I would argue humans do more harm than good. Why are we placed on a pedestal? Better question. Why is it a felony to kill a dog, but it's perfectly normal to kill a cow? Hypocrisy. 3) If you are pro life, you should advocate for all human life. You want to protect a fetus, which is doing nothing but being a parasite to the mother, but want to execute a criminal, who is doing nothing but rotting away in prison. That is not pro life. You're a hypocrite. Yeah. As a compassionate human being, I am willing to give help to criminals who truly want it. People are capable of change. Guess that makes me a better person than you.
    1
  1679. The Whale Bear The Whale Bear 1) I think you need to take a college biology course. Just because you are starting to develop nerve endings does not mean you can feel pain. 2) It is hypocritical of the state. But it's also hypocritical of you. Unless of course, you're a vegan. 3) You are absolutely right. You do not have to advocate for all human life. But that makes you a hypocrite to critize someone else who also doesn't advocate for all human life. The mother decided to have it because she emotionally wanted to take on the role of a mother. That doesn't make the fetus any less of a parasite. You do know that not all people can either take plan B (such as myself) or who's insurance won't pay for it. That shit is 80 dollars here. All fetuses are a complete health hazards to mothers. A fetus doesn't do anything beneficial to it's mother. It's just to most mother's, their body works in a way where they can recover easily what the fetus takes away. Well yeah, that's kind of what prisons are built for. What will ending their life accomplish? You think prisoners can't do go from inside prison? You aren't pro-life in any sense, at least not to me. But that's just an opinion. I guess your also against die with dignity and physician assisted suicide. You can't help monsters? Who are you to decide if they're monsters. You should talk to them sometime. By the way, my last sentence was a joke.
    1
  1680.  @samisprettygroovy8795  The Bible is not documented history. It was written decades after the fact. We know about things like that from written records and archeological evidence. Yes, some of the things in the Bible is actual historical fact. But certainly not all of it. I don't believe in God because there is no evidence for one. The very fact that you think the Bible is legitimate history proves that you are a "hardcore Christian:
    1
  1681.  @samisprettygroovy8795  The difference is that a majority of the Bible was not documented during Jesus's lifetime. It was written centuries after he died via word of mouth. There are no eyewitness accounts in the Bible. Its not your opinion that irritates me. Its the lie you are trying to spread as fact. The Bible is NOT a documented account. It is an account supposedly told by God to men DECADES after the events. Do not call it history. That is a lie.
    1
  1682. Bruce Williamson You mourned the miscarriage because that's what humans do. That's a human reaction. Women don't want to have an abortion. No one wants that choice. But they understand they cannot car for that child as they should.
    1
  1683.  @nf4866  Adoption is not always an option, birth control is not always available, can be taken, or fails, and abstinence defys your body's natural instincts and is extremely unhealthy, both physically and mentally.
    1
  1684.  @nf4866  Adoption agencies are overcrowded and children have been turned away. Not only that, but it isnt free to put a child up for adoption. I don't know where you live, but to get over the counter birth control here is nearly $50. And it isn't available everywhere, nor can all women take it (like myself). Also, "extremely" and "always" are not interchangeable. Birth control is never always effective, and I know several women who got pregnant on birth control. There is plenty of scientific evidence to show that abstinence is unhealthy only when you force your body to remain abstinent. Some people just aren't interested in sex, and abstinence is perfectly fine for them. But someone who has an active libido who represses it does damage physically and mentally.
    1
  1685.  @nf4866  If masturbstion works, then by all means. I absolutely think abortion should be a last resort. Condoms fail. Especially cheap ones. Now, they do work most of the time. But they are not a guarantee. And you still run into the problem of some people being unable to use them. No matter what I showed you, you would dismiss it because you disagree with me. The research is out there if you want it. I'm not trying to change your mind on abortion. Just showing you the other side.
    1
  1686.  @nf4866  Then I would personally like to know where you live, because putting a child up for adoption is never free, considering the legal paperwork involved. You sure you were looking at adoption centers and not foster homes? Ahh. You're lucky enough to live in an area where the adopting family pays the costs. No wonder those children never get adopted.
    1
  1687. Unintelligent Individual It is not a matter of life. It is a matter of sentience.
    1
  1688. Does it? I've met many people, myself included, that would choose to be aborted if we could.
    1
  1689.  @mathildeyoung1823  And human psychology tells us that we as humans don't care about life in a general sense. No, pro-lifers believe that a fetus has personhood and its rights should trump the rights of the mother. Pro-lifers also don't think a person should have a right to put an end to their own life if they are in pain.
    1
  1690.  @mathildeyoung1823  When you make the statement that abortion needs to be illegal because a fetus, which is neither legally nor philosophically a person, has a right to life, you are elevating that right above a mother's right to liberty.
    1
  1691. Then you aren't pro-life. True pro-life is against abortion in any circumstances. A fetus doesn't have a choice because it can't make a choice because it isnt sentient.
    1
  1692.  @squidward4285  Nice rebuttal there.
    1
  1693.  @squidward4285  So...you agree that you aren't pro-life? Or that abortions should be legal? What are you agreeing to
    1
  1694.  @squidward4285  No, they should be legal. To many children in adoption and foster homes waiting for families. I am tired of seeing abused children come into the juvenile hall screaming they wish they had never been born
    1
  1695.  @squidward4285  Do you really think every child who is put up for adoption is eventually adopted? Because they're not. And that is not an opinion. That's a fact. Would have wanted life? How do you know that? I hear children every day bang their heads against concrete and scream "I wish I had never been born"
    1
  1696.  @squidward4285  Once again, we as humans don't take issue with killing life. You do it every day. We just put humans on a pedestal for some reason
    1
  1697.  @squidward4285  No, we're certainly not the most intelligent. We just have the highest congnative function. If you're only reason for being pro-life is because it "kills", you're a hypocrite unless you're against killing anything that's living.
    1
  1698. Strawmanning the argument. You aren't making a choice for someone else when you have an abortion. A fetus is incapable of making a choice on a biological level at the time of most abortions.
    1
  1699.  @penmaster003  Yes it is. A non-sentient fetus has no rights. What is so difficult to understand about that?
    1
  1700.  @penmaster003  Depends on the person. Abortion does not make a choice for someone else because legally, a non-sentient fetus doesn't have rights. Argument from morality is not a valid argument. Also, no we don't. Some humans may respect others and others do not. We have animalistic instincts as well, as we are animals.
    1
  1701.  @penmaster003  Your entire post is nothing but an argument from emotion fallacy. Until you can treat the root causes of why abortion happens, it will always occur. And as someone who was a failed abortion, I would have rather not known life at all then live the absolute shithole I did. Anecdotal or not, death is not the worst thing in the world. The fact that you are okay with children suffering is disgusting and vile. Just as you see me for supporting a right to abortion. Agree to disagree.
    1
  1702.  @parthenon5106  So what?
    1
  1703.  @parthenon5106  So why is abortion immoral if to you it doesn't matter? You wouldn't be here if it didn't matter.
    1
  1704. So? The unborn is not sentient and cannot feel. At least during most abortions.
    1
  1705. Weston Euler Funny, because everyone I've talked to said they would have rather been aborted.
    1
  1706. Thats hypocritical.
    1
  1707. Felitia Librea Not murder. Murder is by definition unlawful.
    1
  1708. A fetus is recognized as a baby, medically and scientifically, after birth.
    1
  1709.  @jianalinksydo1542  I do know what its about. I just acknowledge the book as a whole, instead of picking and choosing what I like and don't like. I'm an atheist, so don't bother with the God nonsense. Funny, because murder is entirely permissible if done by God's standards
    1
  1710.  @jianalinksydo1542  If your God is a loving and just, he can't be wrathful. Those are opposites of each other. I'm not going to obey a tyrant, even if I did believe in him, any more than I would obey the dictator of a country. I don't listen to monsters.
    1
  1711.  @jianalinksydo1542  Bro, quoting scripture at me is thoroughly unconvincing. WE didn't do anything. Even if the Adam and Eve story were true (and it's not) to punish EVERYONE for the crimes of TWO people is despicable. Your parents punish you for what YOU do wrong, but punishment is meant to teach a lesson. Its also supposed to be finite. If you are threatened with eternal damnation for lack of obedience, that is not love. You wouldn't accept that reasoning in the real world. You'd call it abuse. I don't believe Jesus did anything other than preach against the government of the time. There is no sacrifice in a 3 day death. Kindly fuck off with your excuses for abuse.
    1
  1712. Well, all these pro-lifers are automatically anti-euthansia
    1
  1713. Is that why he commanded his people to rip out and murder the unborn in Hosea? Or did you skip that chapter?
    1
  1714. That is by far the stupidest argument I have ever heard.
    1
  1715. Murder by definition is unlawful, something abortion is not. I don't need to change you're mind. You are simply objectively incorrect.
    1
  1716. Because a fetus is not a sentient being. That's the difference. Oh your Christian? Your God actively supports abortion in the Bible. But I bet that's the metaphorical part, right? So you'd rather see a mother in financial ruin and abuse and neglect her child then see it be aborted when it isn't sentient? How very Christian. Adoptions aren't free. And there's no guarentee at happiness or a stable life for a child that is thrown in the system. 66% of children in juvenile hall are adopted and/or in foster care. Congrats on adopting. You can't take care of them all.
    1
  1717.  @Amy-zw4mk  So you don't believe you should have the right to your own body? That's disturbing in all honesty.
    1
  1718.  @Amy-zw4mk  A fetus is part of ypur body, whether you like that idea or not, and is developing what would become its own body by leeching off of you. Its not you not supporting abortion that I find disturbing. Its you believing abortion should be illegal, and women being prosecuted that I find disturbing.
    1
  1719.  @Amy-zw4mk  Perhaps it would be more accurate to say the fetus is developing its own body by attaching to the mother. Is that easier for you? It still, legally, is using her body for development and is attached. Its still, legally, her body. And it still needs her consent to stay there. She has the legal right to terminate an attachment she does not consent to.
    1
  1720.  @Amy-zw4mk  I think miscarriages are sad. I think abortions are sad. I just understand why they happen.
    1
  1721.  @Amy-zw4mk  Whether or not you agree with it doesn't change the legality of it. I could agree with you that abortion is wrong, and still argue its a lesser of two evils. No, that is not accurate. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. You make concious choices for other people every day. A non-sentient fetus cannot choose. And it does have rights. Its rights just don't supersede the mother. What you try to do (in general, not you specifically) is try to elevate the right to life over all other rights. That isn't right, fair or equal. The fact remains that women will always have the right to abortion, as they should. The instant bodily autonomy is no longer a right will be a terrible day for our country.
    1
  1722.  @Amy-zw4mk  Because it does terminate the development of a human. Thats sad, and I wish that people were in better states to raise a child before having sex. Unfortunately, that is not the reality we live in.
    1
  1723.  @Amy-zw4mk  A 1 year old baby may not be able to verbally communicate in a manner we can understand, but it certainly can think and feel. It is sentient. A fetus up to a certain point is not. Okay, then let me provide you with a question, since life matters most. I am currently suffering kidney failure and require a transplant to live. You are found to be a match. Should a doctor be able to take out your perfectly healthy vital organ, potentially causing you issues for life, without your approval or consent simply because it will keep me alive? No. That's unfair of you to have to suffer simply so I can live. Rights are not inherent. You are not entitled to anything. You have a right to life only because a governmental body says you do. And my right to life does not and should not supersede your right to your own bodily autonomy. That's why organ donation is VOLUNTARY. Here's another question. Is death the worst possible scenario? Most people would rather die than be tortured mentally and physically over a prolonged period of time. That is what you do to a child when you are unfit to raise it. You either statistically set it up for failure, or end up killing it anyways. Even with all my accomplishments and my "success" story, I would have rather been aborted then live with the torment I faced at the hands of unfit parents and a broken state system.
    1
  1724. Hypocrisy at its finest.
    1
  1725. Simple Answer: Sentience. In fact, sentience occurs in the womb, which is why most states have a cut off date for abortions. 1. It is always human if it was conceived by 2 human parents. 2. Killing sentient humans matters from a legal/societal perspective. We have laws in a country because we are social animals, and would not want harm done to us. So in turn, we don't harm others. This is something a non-sentient organism (such as a fetus or a plant) cannot comprehend. Once again, it is always human. Most pro-choice people I know draw the line at sentience, when the brain begins to develop, between 18 and 20 weeks. Some put it sooner when the brainstem actually develops, which is between 9 and 12 weeks. Very rarely are people charged with murder for engaging in a fight that results in a death of a fetus. Usually, that is unlawful termination of a pregnancy. In cases where a pregnant woman is murdered, it can sometimes be a homicide, but only if the woman was 20 weeks or more, as it is then established by law that she intended to keep that child. Thank you for bringing valid points to a discussion. Its nice to not be called a baby killer.
    1
  1726. Not really. Since the Bible is certainly not anti-abortion.
    1
  1727. Hypocrite.
    1
  1728. So you just want to see more children suffer huh?
    1
  1729. Once again, a person who does not know what the definition of murder is.
    1
  1730.  @bigmacwithoutcheese8851  Pro life people are nasty.
    1
  1731. Pro life is generally respected more than pro choice, so I don't see your problem. Most of the people I've talked to call me a "baby-killer" for being pro choice.
    1
  1732. You drastically reduce the chance of that child growing up happy and healthy if you cannot care for it. It doesn't HAVE a choice. It is NOT sentient. Choice means NOTHING to a fetus. How could you be so heartless to watch a struggling mother be FORCED to give birth and perhaps attempt to care for the child? You know what's selfish? Forcing a choice on someone because it makes YOU feel better. It's your responsibility to make decisions on what's best for YOU. That includes making the RESPONSIBLE decision to terminate a pregnancy you cannot provide for.
    1
  1733.  @emperortrajan2461  Then you aren't pro-life. Pro-lifers, by definition, are against abortions for any reason.
    1
  1734.  @emperortrajan2461  Pro-life by definition means against abortion and assisted suicide. Period.
    1
  1735.  @emperortrajan2461  Yes they are. So what? You aren't opposed to abortions in cases of rape. You are not pro-life. Also congrats. I'm also against the death penalty.
    1
  1736. Winter Camel Why is it acceptable if the mother's life is in danger? That's hypocritical.
    1
  1737. Winter Camel It's hypocritical to allow abortion only in certain circumstances and not all. You place people are a pedestal that way. Pregnancy is never beneficial to a mother. It does nothing good for her until it's born, and she should have a right to abort it, regardless of how it got there.
    1
  1738. Winter Camel I know exactly what hypocritical means. You say it's wrong to do something, but then turn around and support the right to do it in "special circumstances" You just said abortion should only be allowed in cases where the mother would die. So you put those people on higher ground than you do others who want an abortion. We don't need any more children in this world. We're not in any danger of dying out. I find it hilarious how many pro lifers would never even consider adopting a child. I'm not an awful person for wanting women's rights to be protected. I'm not an awful person for calling a fetus what it medically and scientifically is. I am an intelligent and empathetic person. You're the one who's fine with children forced to be born to unfit mother's who will neglect and abuse them. You're the awful one here, not me.
    1
  1739. Winter Camel A fetus is not a person. People who are pro choice do think about adoption. In fact, everyone I knew who had an abortion considered adoption as a first option. Except that adoption agencies are full and underfunded so much that they've turned children away. Medically, that's what it is. A fetus. Yes, a fetus is potential for human life. So what? No, as a woman, I know having sex without birth control is how women get pregnant. Did you know there are millions of women who can't take birth control? I think it is a responsible choice to have an abortion when no other options are available. The woman is acknowledging that she is incapable of raising a child. If you think abortions should be outlawed, then your money should have to go to take care of that child and it's mother.
    1
  1740. Winter Camel Why not look it up yourself? It's a hell of a lot cheaper to get an abortion. Granted, I still think it should be a last resort. No I'm not insane. I didn't say women can't GET it. I said women can't TAKE it. I can't take birth control. Learn to fucking read. If you really want abortion rates to stop, then you'd have to help the unfit mother. That's just a fact. And I'm sorry, who the hell is a male prostitute to call anyone a whore? I don't know a single woman who chose to have an abortion easily. Majority of the time, they have an abortion because the man literally just walks out. That isn't my argument. I shouldn't have to defy my natural instinct just because I can't take birth control. I don't believe abortion should be used as a form of birth control, but I would rather a non sentient fetus be aborted than an unfit parent neglecting and abusing a sentient child. Once again, some people can't use protection because of medical problems.
    1
  1741. Winter Camel I can't get implants either because of medical illnesses I've had in the past. I don't really care if you believe me or not. People generally have abortions because they feel they are unfit to take care of the child, not because it's an inconvience. Maybe it's morally wrong to you, but it's not to others. Evil? I would say it's evil to force a woman to give birth to a child she cannot handle. I don't really care if your a male escort. If it supports you and your happy, you do you. But if you want your rights to be protected, you should protect others rights.
    1
  1742. Winter Camel Wonderful for you. But a lot of those things are based on eligibility, and some don't meet the requirements. When you force a woman to give birth, you risk her resenting and abusing it.
    1
  1743. Winter Camel I can't use condoms because I don't have a penis. I can't use birth control pills because of lupus and I can't have an implant because of the osteosarcoma I had as a child. I'm sorry that you had a hard life. Believe me I know how that feels. I'm glad you were able to provide for your son, but not all people are able to accomplish what you did. Some people are actually not capable of caring for children. I don't believe your morally wrong. Morality is subjective. What may be wrong to you is not wrong to someone else. And to strip away another person's rights is vile.
    1
  1744. And? She wouldn't care. She would have lacked the capability to care.
    1
  1745.  @shelbyconnors9741  Because she holds a view on what should be done in our society.
    1
  1746.  @MrsWinks  We don't murder anyone. No one but me has a right to my uterus.
    1
  1747.  @MrsWinks  Actually, I do have the right to terminate a pregnancy as outlined in the Constitution. No one but me gets the right to my uterus. It is not my problem the fetus cannot develop without me. And I'm sorry, disconnected? The umbilical cord does not "disconnect" until birth. It is my body. Its inside my uterus. I don't lose my right to liberty. Once again, its not murder. And it's not that I want the right. I HAVE that right. Life isn't inherently value to me. Period. Yes. Lets pretend that all pregnancies occur because someone just lays down with a person. Its not being ignorant, nor is it being cruel. What's cruel is you watching kids be abused and neglected because in your fucked up mind, that is somehow better than death.
    1
  1748. Because condoms and pills are always an option right? And they always work right? Why do you people hate women's rights so much.
    1
  1749.    You have a right to your body. You give consent to what happens with yoir body. So yes. You do want to take that right away from women.
    1
  1750.    Yes it is. Its attached to her uterus. It dies without her reproductive system. You'll have an argument when it can develop on its own. Without the use of a person's body
    1
  1751.    You own your body.
    1
  1752.  @icarusflies9670  Consent to sex is not and will never be consent to pregnancy. Those are two separate occurances. If you do not, for any reason, consent to a fetus using your uterus, it is your right to get rid of it. You may consider it unethical, but I consider it unethical to force a woman to endure a pregnancy she does not consent to. A human isn't inherently valuable, and I absolutely agree that people need to have open discussions.
    1
  1753. No its not. At least not in the US. Thats a fact, not an opinion.
    1
  1754.  @blaecccuebbler7711  An abortion is accessible anywhere. You can give yourself an abortion. A contraception must be perscribed by a doctor (usually an OBGYN) and many medical conditions and living situations do not allow this.
    1
  1755.  @blaecccuebbler7711  Condoms depend on where you live, and are much less effective than a woman on birth control. And yes. That does make it accessible.
    1
  1756. Birth control can fail. Some women can't take these pills. Condoms break. Being responsible includes potentially having an abortion, instead of bearing a child that you cannot care for.
    1
  1757. Birth control is not readily available, not cheap, and cannot be used by everyone. Condoms are not foolproof or as effective as they claim. Abstinence works, but if you are a person that has a high libido, abstinence is unhealthy. Take precautions and reduce the chance everywhere you can, and then if it happens, decide on the best decision.
    1
  1758. Abortion isn't murder.
    1
  1759.  @parthenon5106  Murder in disguise is implying that abortion and murder are equal. And he's wrong.
    1
  1760.  @parthenon5106  No they're not. And you're honestly naive if you believe that.
    1
  1761. Society wouldn't have to deal with it if they minded their own business
    1
  1762.  @parthenon5106  If abortion was murder or violated a sentient persons constitutional rights. But it doesn't.
    1
  1763. That person only gets a 2 count if the woman was 5 months along or more. Most abortions take place between 6 and 9 weeks, in the first trimester. The fetus isnt sentient at this point.
    1
  1764. Since when does anyone else but you have a say with what happens to YOUR uterus?
    1
  1765.  @noface4566  You can't really control that on a whim when its in the body of a another person, now can you? Outside however, you absolutely can.
    1
  1766.  @noface4566  Now you're just strawmanning, but I'll entertain you. From a legal perspective, a judge would simply tell you that your forfeited your belonging when you left it at some else's property. Legally, it was no longer your property. You could argue all day morally, but sperm is not a possession. Its a bodily fluid. So, strawman.
    1
  1767. Taylor Leger Then why are there millions of children across the US sitting in adoption agencies and foster homes? Why has the adoption rate continually declined since 2005?
    1
  1768.  @kimthejunglist  And those laws will never stand, because a woman will just appeal to the federal court and then sue the state.
    1
  1769. No they don't, because they wouldn't be okay with forcing an unfit mother to give birth to a child she will neglect and abuse. I think it's hypocritical for pro-life people to preach about all lives matter and then will watch a child be neglected because they refused to let the mother have an abortion. Should be about quality of life.
    1
  1770.  @bluediamond4895  How about people who can't use protection? They should be forbidden from intercourse
    1
  1771.  @bluediamond4895  Because the homeless and the poor often times made themselves that way, and can recover from it. I'm fine with taking children away from abusive mother's, but again, people can and do change. Once again, there is a difference between killing a sentient being and a non sentient being.
    1
  1772.  @bluediamond4895  Almost every single homeless person I know are homeless because of a drug or a gambling problem. Is that everyone? No. But many put themselves in that situation. No one would kill them. You are making huge assumptions about me and it's frankly irritating
    1
  1773.  @bluediamond4895  "Ever heard of adoption?" Ever heard of adoption centers turning away couples because they lack room? Less and less people want children. What happens to the children who are never adopted? They're kicked out at 18 with nothing.
    1
  1774.  @xthunderstonex6873  The issue morally should be sentience. Not life.
    1
  1775.  @xthunderstonex6873  Exactly what I said. Place your value (if you must) on sentience.
    1
  1776.  @xthunderstonex6873  Sentience. The ability to think and feel. In other words, put value on the brain activity as opposed to a heartbeat.
    1
  1777.  @xthunderstonex6873  I'm messed up for supporting women's rights? Okay.
    1
  1778. It will never be murder until its unlawful, which it never will be.
    1
  1779. Okay, so here's some problems I see with your argument. Your paragraph about biology is entirely useless, because it runs on knowledge that has nothing to do with the ethics behind abortion. Being human doesn't make you special. Your argument refering to the Constitution is also invalid, because it is referring to SENTIENT human beings, because it is referring to personhood. Fetuses are not people, even though they are human. Whether or not you interpret this as injustice is irrelevant. Your argument also doesn't mention that you can be pro-choice and anti-abortion, as pro-life is also against death with dignity or assisted suicide. You value life so much, yet you would watch someone suffer because of the hope that they may heal? That seems evil to me. A fetus with no brain activity cannot make a choice. You should not be forced to use your body in a way you do not want, even if it saves someone else. Should I be forced to donate my organs simply because I won't die and it will save someone else? Your final argument makes you just look like a monster or a hypocrite. If you concede to pro-life, then abortion is outlawed in all cases. That means you are fine with the trauma rape causes a woman, or the potential death of the woman/fetus on principle. I'm sorry, but that makes you look like a monster. On the same token, if you allow for abortions in these circumstances, you are a hypocrite. No. The question isn't "is it human life". Human life is not sacred. It never will be. The real question is "How should the right of bodily autonomy be weighed with the right to life?" You cannot push one human right above another. But you don't agree with that. Because you think the fetuses rights (which it doesn't even legally have) are more valuable than the mother's. It doesn't matter what's inside. I do not give consent. I therefore have the legal, and moral, right to terminate it. Hope this offers you a different perspective.
    1
  1780. I find it hilarious that you don't know how to use spell check. By the way, some of us are failed abortions.
    1
  1781.  @codnoob1152  I hold no ill will towards my mother. She did not feel she could handle me, which she couldn't. A fetus doesn't care if it's aborted. Only one who cares are people like you.
    1
  1782.  @codnoob1152  You can't care. You would lack a brainstem, so you do not have the capacity to care. Just like I wouldn't care if that abortion had been successful, because I lacked the capability to care. She did what she felt was right. I cannot blame her for that.
    1
  1783.  @codnoob1152  And I wouldn't have cared if I was. She couldn't give me the life she felt I deserved. I hold more resentment to the people that forced her not to try and abort again than I do her.
    1
  1784.  @codnoob1152  I don't think she was a selfish monster in the slightest. But that's your opinion. Probably because I actually understand why she wanted to abort me, something you're incapable of doing because you appeal to emotion. Considering abortion is still legal and the predominance is pro-choice, I would say Your pro life arguments are pathetic.
    1
  1785. Maddison Freeman How is it bringing that life safely into the world when the mother doesn not know how to care for that child and ends up abusing and neglecting it?
    1
  1786. Maddison Freeman Adoption agencies have turned away children because they lack funding and room. Even if they are given to an agency, there's no guarantee they'll ever be adopted. Also, not all family members will help. I'm all for taking these steps before considering an abortion, but I see an issue when people tell me "I wish I had been aborted"
    1
  1787.  @BlueisNotaWarmColour  I never argued it wasn't human. It is. So what? You're not inherently valuable. I'm well aware abuse and neglect are illegal. And yet it goes unreported. Because parents cannot care or handle their children. "A broken state is better than being dead" Says who? Have you been abused by the state? Why is death the worst possible option?
    1
  1788.  @BlueisNotaWarmColour  No you're not. You're subjectively valuable. Nothing gives you inherent value. Nature does not care. Also no. Abortion is not murder. Murder is a legal term. There is no such thing as "natural human rights". That's a concept invented by a government, but stated in a way to make it appear as if the government could never take that away. Again, nature doesn't give two shits about you. Murder is illegal because it violates the rights set in place by the Constitution. Again, conflating abortion with murder. Tell me. Do you believe in human euthanasia? Do you believe a brain dead person should be taken off of life support? Literally the same concept. You are terminating the life and development of a nonsentient fetus. The bottom line is, you cannot dictate the rights of other people's bodies just because you want to "preserve" a life. Taxes don't pay for abortion. That's illegal.
    1
  1789.  @BlueisNotaWarmColour  I do not argue from morality and to me, abortion is not a moral argument. I can grant you the premise abortion ia evil and still argue its a necessary evil at this point in time. Perhaps it won't be one day. A fetus is not a sentient being any more than a brain dead person is until long after most abortions take place. Personally, I'm against abortion after first trimester when sentience is achieved, but I don't demonize women who have one. That fetus is in her body. It is using her uterus against her consent. Its right to life does not supersede her right to liberty. By the way, a fetus is never dismembered and vacuumed out unless its a late term abortion, which are nearly exclusively performed for medical reasons. No, taxes do not go towards abortion. Planned Parenthood does more than just abortions. Abortions are not funded by taxes. Thats in violation of the federal law.
    1
  1790.  @BlueisNotaWarmColour  My stance is not considered pro-life. Most people don't even seem to understand what pro-life actually is by definition. They often change the definition to fit a narrative. Pro-life, by its actual definition, is against euthanasia and abortion in ALL circumstances. I know very few "pro-life" people who take this hard of a stance. If we're talking the actual definition, most people are actually pro-choice. I know what its like to be thrown into a broken system. I have no opportunity for a future only because my mother didn't want me. Perhaps thats why I am so passionate about this topic. I sincerely believe a painless death, in which you cannot even comprehend what's happening, is better than a life full of mistreatment, where in the end, you'll be a dependent on the state for life.
    1
  1791.  @dumbspud9890  Nope. Its not.
    1
  1792.  @dumbspud9890  Sentince.
    1
  1793.  @dumbspud9890  Why is that surprising
    1
  1794.  @dumbspud9890  Sentience.
    1
  1795.  @dumbspud9890  No. Around the time the brain develops conscious thought. Between 13-15 weeks
    1
  1796. I do have a hard time understanding hypocrites that don't care about women's or the dyings rights, but do care about fetuses before birth and want to lynch criminals.
    1
  1797.  @ethanm.2411  You are. Because you try to elevate the right to life over the right to liberty. And thats simply not how this works. You do not have a right to life if that life intereferes with another person's natural rights. A doctor can't take a lung or kidney from you just because a person is dying and needs one. You can't be forced to donate organs or blood just because it will save others.
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  1798. Yrn Cartier If you won't pay for the abortion, you should have to pay for 18 years for the child's expenses when it's born to a mother who can't provide for it.
    1
  1799. Yrn Cartier adoption agencies now turn away children because of space issues. I understand not wanting to support something you don't believe, but that's why subsidies exist.
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  1800. TheLinkster That child won't have a chance at life if you force an unfit mother to birth it. She will come to resent it, and abuse and neglect it.
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  1801. Why do people always think that adoption is a fix all system thats not entirely broken?
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  1802.  @coletonmccall701  Thats a matter of personal opinion. I would argue its not.
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  1803.  @ImGoodThankYou  Never said it was a trivial blob. But it also ism't a sentient being at the time most abortions are carried out. I am not a hypocrite and do not put humans on a pedestal. Life means nothing to me. Sentience does. Once a fetus gains sentience (between week 12 and 15 depending on development) abortion should be off the table.
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  1804.  @ImGoodThankYou  Being pro choice is responsible. How is it responsible to force a woman to give birth to a child she is unable to properly care for? Who are you saving in that instance? What do I want? The right to my body and the right for everyone else to stay out of my business. I'm sorry you live in a country that treats you poorly. But we do have that right over here. I do care, and I think it should be a last resort. The difference between you and me is I see both sides of the coin.
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  1805.  @ImGoodThankYou  I do see both sides of the coin whether or not you believe it. I don't believe people have inherent value. I don't believe your special just because you're born. I think to force your ideals onto others is wrong. I am all for fixing the adoption system. I am all for helping struggling mothers so they don't have to abort. I would love to see a world where abortion didn't exist. But at present time, that is not realistic. You fail to understand or see why a woman would make that choice, despite her hardships. Nothing in this world is black and white. There is no "scientific proof" that humans are valuable. Value is a social construct. There is no gauge in nature to measure value. Morality is subjective, and you automatically lose when your entire argument is based on morality. Even if I didn't support abortion, i still can't be pro-life because I support someone's right to die.
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  1806. Ineedas hower I was a failed abortion, and hold nothing against my mother for wanting to abort me. She couldn't provide for me like I needed to be provided for. How is abortion not murder? Because murder is unlawful whereas abortion is not. It's only considered a double homicide if the woman is 5 months along or longer.
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  1807. Which inherently takes away the choice of the mother who will have to care for the child who may not have the means to. The bottom line is you cannot miss something you never had, and people don't give a damn what kind of life the child will have as long as its born.
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  1808.  @halliestein4972  No they don't. I have never seen someone who guilts a mother into not having an abortion ever try to help her after the child is born. Does that mean it never happens? No, of course not. But rarely do you people ever attempt to help a woman after she has given birth. Yeah they do. And guess what? They cost money. Not only that, they provide no financial stability for a woman. They only teach you how to physically care for a child. That does nothing to help a mother who has emotional or financial burdens. You cannot miss something you didn't have. As much as I have accomplished, as a failed abortion, I wish it had been successful. Because the success I have found was not worth the pain and struggle I had to go through. An abortion should be a last resort, and I have talked women out of abortions by offering help. That being said, to guilt them and deny them the right to abort when they cannot properly care for the child is irresponsible and vile.
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  1809. Life doesn't matter. Sentience does. And also no. Its terminating the development of a fetus.
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  1810. It's not on the federal level unless the woman is 5 months along or more.
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  1811.  @makeupandmentalhealth8346  Because you lack the basic understanding of the definition of murder.
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  1812.  @makeupandmentalhealth8346  So apparently you don't know what murder is. Murder by definition is unlawful. Since abortion is not unlawful, it is not murder. That's a fact, not an opinion.
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  1813.  @Canadianimmo  I know what human life is. I just don't see why life matters. Because intentionally causing harm to a sentient being violates their right to protection. In a place where abortion is illegal, it would be murder by definition. I am speaking for the US. "Immoral human beings" is an entirely subjective phrase. I could make the argument you are an immoral human being for being perfectly content watching innocent children suffer at the hands of unfit parents who cannot care for them. The fetus doesn't care. Why should I? Human life has no inherent value, nor is a fetus a child. I'm not hypocritical on this issue at all.
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  1814.  @Canadianimmo   No, unlike you, I understand the difference between a non-sentient fetus and a sentient child. And no, I don't think your immoral. I was drawing a comparison. Everything dies. That is most certainly not my argument. Everyone should have the chance to grow up in a stable environment, and I believe not allowing that is wrong. I would love to just be able to tell parents to stop abusing and neglecting children. But reality does not work that way. Some parents don't want to neglect and abuse children, but don't know any other way. Others are mentally I'll or damaged, and are physically incapable of raising children. Also no, I'm just realistic and not ignorant of the fact that I don't have value just because I was born. Good thing morality is subjective, and you believing I'm immoral is just your opinion. Carry on being ignorant of what murder is and ad hominems if it makes you feel better. I don't believe in hell, so your pathetic prophecy means nothing. FYI: God is perfectly fine with abortions. Even advocates for them. I suppose he should be in hell too, hmm?
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  1815. The Bible is a bad choice to use when discussing abortion, considering God outright calls for abortion in some parts of it. I find pro life people overly aggressive who want to see me die because I support a woman's right to choose to be a mother or not. I deserve the right to my body until that fetus is sentient.
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  1816. Sam Streveler Then doing it because you were raped is still because it's inconvient, so by your logic, rape victims shouldn't have that right either.
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  1817. Sam Streveler Fetuses heartbeat isn't separate from its mother at the time of most abortions. A rape victim doesn't want the child because she can't provide for it or because it would remind her of that experience. That's still because it's inconvient to her. That's the same reason why most women have an abortion. Because they cannot give it the love and live it needs to function normally.
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  1818.  @tristinjudd2595  Life's not fair. My husband/boyfriend/person I slept with has absolutely no right to what I do with my uterus. I don't care how much he loves the parasite. I'm not carrying it for 9 months if I know I can't handle it. That's like saying I should have an equal say in what he does with his body.
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  1819.  @asdadishere  Actually, its not scientifically inaccurate. All human beings are simply clusters of cells on a biological level. On top of that, life has no intrinsic value. You aren't valuable just because you exist (at least in my opinion). Unique genetic makeup? No, not at all. Its about 98% similar to other humans and its parents. That 1 or 2% doesn't make it unique. The line drawn is at sentience, at least when dealing with a fetus.
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  1820.  @asdadishere  At their basic biological levels, all organic matter is just cells. That is literally the first thing a biologist will tell you. That's not saying that is all there is to it, but at your ground level you ARE just cells. It has nothing to do with life holding intrinsic value. It has everything to do with what the Constitution says. The reason we consider killing wrong is cultural, not moral. Morality is entirely subjective. Perhaps we don't in a colloquial sense, but we certainly do on a biological sense. No, comatose people are still sentient. Fetuses are not. Unless you are brain dead (which isn't the same as being comatose) you have the capability to think and feel subjectively. Even if you cannot convey it. Abortion should be off the table when the fetus gains sentience. Also, for the record, people in comas should be let go. You put your pet to sleep when it is no longer living a functioning life. Why don't we offer that service to humans?
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  1821.  @asdadishere  "Morally wrong to do so". Only in your opinion. In other cultures and places, being killed is revered as an honor. You can have an objective goal to apply subjective morality to, but morality, in the end, is still subjective. Nothing in nature says killing is wrong, and that is not universally agreed upon. Just because its based on the premise that life has intrinsic value doesn't mean it does. That intrinsic value came from the fact that the founders were deists. There is an established definition of sentience. It doesn't matter what YOUR definition is. Sentience is the ability to think and feel subjectively. Anyone with brain activity has that. Why is that? Humans are animals as well. No one is in a coma for a predictably short period of time. That simply doesn't happen. I don't value human life above animals as that is hypocritical to me. A person should be allowed the right to die as well, you said. You understand that the definition of pro-life is also against euthanasia, correct? You can't be both. If you cannot take care of a child, you should have the right to abort before sentience. That is my stance. I hear too many children, whose lives are now over, scream they should have been aborted.
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  1822.  @asdadishere  As I said before, you can have an objective standard and still understand morality is subjective. Its called moral relativism. Why does it matter that children are abused? That their lives are ruined forever? Is that what you are honestly asking me? You can say that when you have an objective goal, and apply subjective morality, then it works objectively for or against that goal. I get this all the time in debates. I bring up my position, and people stop because they feel backed into a corner. I hold no hatred for you just because your opinion is different from mine. Yes, I think that is when sentience occurs. Also, yes they are. Not being able to convey what they are feeling does not equate to not being able to feel. That's like saying that a person who is mentally handicapped to the point of being non-verbal cannot feel. Sentience/brainstem activity, obtained usually between 10-12 weeks gestation. Then you aren't pro-life. You are pro-choice and against abortion. But just as you think that terminating an unborn is immoral, I think knowingly allowing a child to be born to unfit parents where their likelyhood of success in life is low is immoral.
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  1823.  @asdadishere  No, its just morality as a concept is subjective. Thats one of the biggest issues debating from a sense of morality. But, like in your example, we can have child slavery collectively be wrong (subjectively) and have an objective goal to end it. Therefore, outlawing child slavery would be an objective positive step toward that goal. Thats my stance.
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  1824.  @asdadishere  But thats not the majority opinion. Only a minority are against abortion. Because I have an MD. And I've studied the brain extensively. Brain function is sentience, even when part of the brain does not function normally or at all. You didn't lose the ability to feel. You lost the ability to remember what happened while unconcious and lost the ability to convey how you were feeling. That doesn't mean you don't react to outside stimuli. Sort of like how a fetus moves when it hears its mothers voice. When you lose conciousness, the part of the brain that controls memory does not function. This is why its extremely difficult for most people to remember dreams vividly, or why intoxicated people never remember what happens. That congnition is switched off. We can accurately predict the circumstances of a child's life depending on the situation it is born into. Those who are born into a loving family typically grow up normal and those born to unloving or unsupportive families typically suffer hardships. Is this always the case? No. But the rare occasions are outliers. There is worse in the world than death.
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  1825.  @asdadishere  That is not the case at all. A vast majority of the population is pro-choice. Yes, insects are sentient. As are all animals. I think that decision should be left up to them. My stance is that children who will be born into situations that give them major disadvantages in life, a mother has the right to prevent their child from being born in that situation. A sentient woman also has the right to autonomy over her body over a non-sentient fetus. No. No one should have the right to force their beliefs on ANYONE. Pro-choice gives you all the choice pro-life does. Often, mothers who believe they will be unfit choose other methods, such as adoption or allowing a family member or friend to raise the child until they are stable. Abortion is just a route open when all else fails. A non-sentient fetus cannot care and you cannot miss something you didn't have. So why do you care?
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  1826. LillaBittaPlo Pro life also includes being against assisted suicide.
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  1827. They also can't be used by all people and fail
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  1828. MrPanda412 _ Then you should have to pay to raise that child.
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  1829. MrPanda412 _ You can't just give a child to a family. Without a lawyer and a shit ton of money, that's illegal. Adoption agencies have been turning children away, because there is not enough funding and room. I agree that abortion should be the absolute last resort, but it happens for a reason.
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  1830. MrPanda412 _ Because I would rather a fetus be aborted when it is not sentient that be born to an unfit parent who will abuse and neglect it in which either a) it will die b) it will grow up to abuse others or c) Be thrown into the foster care system where it will be further abused
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  1831. MrPanda412 _ Most abortions are performed between 6 and 9 weeks. No brainstem, no pain, no heartbeat. Not all states have such a late cutoff date.
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  1832. MrPanda412 _ I am a girl, and a lot of times abortions are performed because the father abandons the mother. If he remains in the picture, I absolutely believe he should have a say.
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  1833. Except the Bible often condones abortion.
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  1834.  @ethanm.2411  No, it isn't. Because murder is strictly a legal term and has an established definition. Not all killing equates to murder. While I can grant you the premise that abortion is killing a human, it is not murder.
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  1835. Your rights stop where another persons starts. It is also our right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness, but I cannot infringe on your rights to do that. You might rather live, and thats probably because you don't know what its like. Human life is not inherently valuable.
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  1836.  @daniellemichael1  Just because life comes first doesn't mean it trumps the other rights. Human life is no precious and is extremely similar to all other forms of animal life. At least scientifically. We could argue morals and emotions all day. The bottom line is the right to life does not supersede the right to pursuit of happiness. I have CKD and am on a transplant list. I cannot walk into your home and demand you give me a kidney simply because without one I will die and I have a right to life. My right to life does not matter more than your right to pursue happiness.
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  1837.  @daniellemichael1  No, its not incomparable, because its a matter of rights. If you advocate for pro-life, then you ARE demanding to take rights from women and the dying and you ARE controlling someone's body. You do not protect life by outlawing abortion. I'm not trying to start a fight either. I'm simply debating you.
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  1838.  @daniellemichael1  The other half of pro life is being against a person's right to die (euthanasia). No, the fetus is attached to her body, only developing a seperate one by feeding off of her. Its genetic code come from both parents and is 99% similar to everyone else. Having a child is also detrimental to a womans physical and mental health.
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  1839. @douglas carpenter Ummm no. There is no fixing my kidney. My kidney failure has nothing to do with diet. The law does not recognize the unborn as human life, something I can even disagree with. From a strictly legal perspective, a fetus has no rights. It IS th mothers body. It is attached to her womb. It is growing its own body by feeding off of her. Yes, it is human. Yes, it is living. You only have rights because of a government. And your rights stop where someone else's begin.
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  1840. No, your pro-life because your religious or you ridiculously believe that a fetus has more rights than a sentient mother and the dying should be forced to suffer. Abortion is not murder. It is your body. It is your uterus. And as far as killing life, you do that every day, you hypocrite.
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  1841. Yes because abortions never happen in cases where a woman isn't sleeping around...because a man always sticks around. You don't live in reality do you?
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  1842.  @KingSye78  And my point is neither of those things prevent you from getting pregnant.
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  1843. No, because murder is illegal and abortion is not. Not only that, but the heartbeat you hear is not independent from the mother, nor does a heartbeat determine life. Thats the brainstems job.
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  1844. Some of the most vile and despicable people also had difficult childhoods. That is a terrible argument. Why deny a person a chance? Because that chance is dramatically reduced when raised by unfit parents. I would choose to die. Despite all my accomplishments, I am a failed abortion. My life was not worth the misery I suffered. But, I only speak for me. I question that the fetus would rather live than not know that pain. That is not true in my experience.
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  1845.  @bigmacwithoutcheese8851  Too bad none of those statements are false. It IS her body, it DOESN'T dehumanize anyone, and abortion rates are LOWER in areas where it's legal. Illegal and unreported abortions skyrocketed in countries where abortion was banned, and women simply gave themselves an abortion, or jumped the border. You did not save those fetuses by banning abortion.
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  1846. No there isn't. In fact, there is no scientific evidence to decide one way or the other. Science is neutral that can be used in either way. I don't see a solid argument to be against a person's right to liberty.
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  1847.  @travisjohnson7065  Americans also have the right to liberty, and those rights are equal. It doesn't natter how badly I want to live. I can't force you to give me a kidney without ypur explicit consent. The same applies to abortion.
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  1848.  @travisjohnson7065  So did you just completely skip the line of these rights being equal? I guess you did. They were not in that order because they were most to least important. The founders believed these rights were unaliable, granted by a Deity, and were of equal value. My life can also not come at the cost of your liberty. I cannot force you donate an organ or blood, no matter how much I need it. Period. This is how our rights were written. If you don't like it, don't participate or move.
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  1849.  @blaecccuebbler7711  Except you didn't. Not one comment on this thread is from you. And it wouldn't be invalid. If the right to life is so important, then DNR's and slow Codes would be illegal and donations that save lives without killing the person donating would all be mandatory.
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  1850.  @travisjohnson7065  That is the most mental gymnastics answer I have ever read. No, it did not mean equal that way. Take a government class. It meant all inalienable rights were equal to each other. You have a right to LIFE. No where does it say you have a right to not be killed. We made that law on the grounds that it violates your right to life. Whether you are killed by a knife or a disease, you are still being killed. And if the right to life was so important, then standing by and doing nothing to help when you have the capability would be the same as accessory. But its not. Because thats not the ways our laws were defined. That is why the SC has struck down everything that tried to overturn Roe vs Wade. Because a fetus does not get the right to use your uterus without your express consent.
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  1851.  @travisjohnson7065  Abortion statutes are different in different states yes, but do not vary by much. A fetus, legally, should (in my opinion) have rights when it becomes sentient. This is after most abortions are performed. That is what we use to legally define personhood. A fetus does not get the right to use my uterus without my consent. But I also can't just let it develop and then withdraw that consent, because that would put liberty above life. Sentience is where the pro-choicers I know draw the line.
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  1852.  @travisjohnson7065  Because then the rights are unequal. This is where you're mixing legality and morality. Legally, a woman can withdraw consent when it doesn't interefere with another right. Sentience isn't ambiguous. Its when the ability to think and feel is established. No, I don't. Because there is no such thing as natural rights. The rights you currently have bend to the will of opinions from people in higher power than you. That is our reality. I have my morals, you have yours. I see, at this time, a necessity for abortion.
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  1853.  @blaecccuebbler7711  No. It, I suppose marks them as spam. So I don't see it.
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  1854.  @travisjohnson7065  Morality is subjective, and changes with society and time. Sentience is achieved when the neurological structure of the brain finishes and attaches to what will become the CNS. By 15 weeks. People have already told me I don't have rights. Legally I do. That's what matters at this point. Should that change at some point, I will either fight, leave, or adapt. The difference is we can use objectivity to show that a genocide wasn't necessary. You can use objective truths towards objective morality.
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  1855.  @blaecccuebbler7711  Then you clearly didn't read the Constitution, and I would advise you take a Government class. The order didn't matter. It doesn't matter the biological purpose. The fact remains that when you are using another person, you need consent. Its not forced. Its one of the reasons we have Roe vs Wade. Consent means everything and consenting to sleep with someone does not mean consent to pregnancy. And yes, morality is subjective. Nothing in nature says killing is wrong. You think killing is wrong because you were raised in an environment where that was taught. Objective reasoning can be used for a subjective truth. This is tenant of secular humanism. That doesn't make morality objective. It has and will change with people and timem And yes. Youtube does block spam comments.
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  1856.  @blaecccuebbler7711  It can't. The mother has to give the consent by allowing the development. That's the point. A non-sentient creature doesn't get a choice. The sentient being has the choice. Allowing a man to ejaculate inside you does not give the consent for a fertilized egg to implant. This is the core of the issue we have.
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  1857.  @blaecccuebbler7711  Prisoners lose certain rights. Rights are at the will of a governmental body. Unfortunately, nature doesn't care about humans. And biology wouldn't show you that. The way we interpret consent is what shows us that.
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  1858. The process your talking about is called a private adoption, and the issue is that its a legal process. Most people even considering abortion would not be able to afford the doctors and lawyers fees of a private adoption. If abortion is an option at all, it should be a available to everyone. Don't be a hypocrite.
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  1859. Way to want to see people die.
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  1860.  @britishmgtow7251  And how would banning abortion do that? Do you realize how many children born to unfit parents die to abuse and neglect?
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  1861.  @britishmgtow7251  A fetus is not a baby.
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  1862.  @britishmgtow7251  A fetus becomes a baby when it is born. That is just biology. When should abortion be off the table? When the fetus becomes sentient.
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  1863. And? That only matters if you believe life, specifically human life, has inherent value.
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  1864. @Ankh I believe you'll find we can. I mean, if you but your bias and misunderstanding aside.
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  1865.  Tim Account  You will never be the majority. By the way, humans aren't precious. Their animals just like everyone else. Get over the fact that you are not inherently valuable.
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  1866.  Tim Account  Nope, just passionate. I'm perfectly fine with you having a different opinion.
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  1867.  @ethanm.2411  Everyone's choices is based on bias. You cannot truly be unbiased. I would have chosen death if I had known my situation. Other than that, I wouldn't have cared.
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  1868. Thats ironic since the Bible condones abortion.
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  1869.  @ethanm.2411  It doesn't have a unique genetic code. Its 99% both of its parents. And no, it still is her body. Its using her uterus. You're spinning the Violinist narrative.
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  1870.  @ethanm.2411  Except those things aren't what we would genetically call unique. Not from a medical perspective anyway. I don't have a unique genetic code. My code is a combination of my mother and father. Colloquially we call it unique, but realistically, its not. As far as dependance on her body, that is not the opinion of medical professionals or the law, which is why abortion is an option. If you need to use another person's autonomy to sustain life, they must consent. Or you are in violation of their rights. Yes. Yes you are. Unless you're also of the opinion that blood, plasma and organs should be mandatory and not voluntary.
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  1871.  @ethanm.2411  All rights are equal in the Constitution. By your words, you should be mandated by law to give blood, give plasma and donate organs because it saves lives. 1. No, because the rights are equal. You cannot violate another's life to pursue your own. 2. Abortion is dealing with the consequences, as is motherhood and adoption. 3. It is a parasite. It survives by living off another creature while providing no benefit and causing harm. Sorry that that fact bothers you. We just don't colloquially view it as one, because many find pregnancy a happy occasion. 4. If we wanted to be strictly legal, the unborn has no Constitutional rights. Even if it did, which I can consent it should, its rights were still be equal. I don't get to take your kidney just because I'll die without one. A fetus does not get to use a woman's uterus unless she consents to it.
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  1872. That explanation in no way determines abortion is wrong, especially since we as a species care about sentience over life.
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  1873.  @tetea3869  killing and murder are not the same thing, nor is murder wrong objectively. I would argue forcing a woman to give birth to a child she cannot care for is evil.
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  1874.  @parthenon5106  Pro-life who want ro make it punishable by law to have an abortion are forcing a woman to give birth. Rape exists in abortion, although minute. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. Pull your head out of your ass
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  1875. And unless you understand what its like to be unloved, abused and neglected by a parent who can't raise you, no one expects you to get it. Its not narcissistic to think about what is best for a child. Death is certainly not the worse thing.
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  1876. Thats not a right you are entitled to, unlike the right to bodily autonomy. While I agree double standards certainly exist, you pay child support because you are not there for the child physically. You provide nothing else for it. This goes for men and women.
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  1877.  @Eastmaniac  The man doesn't have that right because his body is not being used by the developing fetus. They don't usually pay if they give the child up for adoption through the state. Private adoptions require a laywer and while sometimes the adoption family will pay, this is not always the case. Should she choose to keep the child, yeah. You will have to take responsibility, just as she would if the courts awarded a man custody. You're not ready to be a father? Don't sleep with someone you aren't committed to.
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  1878.  @Eastmaniac  Because one case involves rights where the other one does not. By the way, how about cases where the court hands the child to father and the mother pays child support?
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  1879.  @chavezharding7820  You dont need to redefine it. Words have both an established and a colloquial definition. It is a parasite, as it fits the definition of a parasite. However, it is not a parasite in a colloquial sense. No it doesn't.
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  1880.  @chavezharding7820  It isnt unlike anything else, and you would know that if you took a genetics class. They're all different, but are still similar. Your DNA would still match your parents and siblings. Having a few differences doesn't make it unique. Once again, you are using the colloquial definition of unique.
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  1881.  @potatopotatobuy239  That is your personal opinion. Nothing justifies forced birth in my opinion.
    1
  1882.  @potatopotatobuy239  It most certainly is. Forcing someone who becomes pregnant to give birth is the very definition of "forced birth."
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  1883.  @potatopotatobuy239  You are terminating the development of a non sentient fetus. That fetus is not a person. I do not believe human life has inherent value, and while you may think its wrong, I think its a lesser of two evils. And its a constitutional right.
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  1884.  @potatopotatobuy239  A fetus isn't a person by definition until it achieves sentience, which is after the time of most abortions. Being human or having human DNA has nothing to do with personhood. Personhood is a philosophical concept, not a biological one. The "right to life" is something granted by a government. A) This right cannot infringe on other rights and B) a fetus has no legal rights.
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  1885.  @ryanbianchi3118  But you can't use that logic for abortion, because you have created a strawman. Abortion is not a crime. Abortion is a right. We have not deemed a abortion to be wrong as a society. Although I do agree it is a weak argument.
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  1886.  @ryanbianchi3118  Morality is an entirely subjective concept, so to claim as a collective that abortion is wrong is a false narrative. No, slavery wasn't moral. Because is was a violation of inherent rights. Abortion is not. You're creating a strawman again. Abortion was never immoral, and thats partially why Roe vs Wade passed. Denying a person the right to abort is in violation of the constitution. You can't legislate morality. Because its subjective.
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  1887.  Lizzie Allen  its always been taboo and being illegal doesn't make something immoral. Morality is subjective.
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  1888. I would say 12 weeks is the cutoff. 1st trimester. Luckily, a majority of abortions are before that.
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  1889. Probably because you have no idea what it's like to be in the foster care system, to be abandoned, or to not have anything. There are plenty of children out here who every day say "I wish I had never been born".
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  1890. Lol no its not. Murder is a legal term. Educate yourself.
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  1891.  @Clarefalco  Yes, it does. Because murder has an established definition. You don't get to change the definition of a word because you don't agree with it. By your logic, war and capital punishment would also be murder.
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  1892.  @Clarefalco  And actually, I apologize. It should have read "murder is a legal term" not "abortion is a legal term".
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  1893.  JamesHLanier  The ability to opt out of your parental duties is not a right. You have an obligation just as she does.
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  1894.  JamesHLanier  Yes, which also seperates the father from that parental right as well. But that is a legal process that requires money, if you do a private adoption, which she still must pay for. I wasn't saying a man should be excluded from whatever decision is made. But if she chooses to keep the child, and the man chooses not to stay and help, then it isn't his right to abandon his child if he doesn't want it. Sign away your parental rights if you really don't want to pay child support.
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  1895. @He loves you! Except its not murder as murder is STRICTLY a legal term. I believe the word you're looking for is killing.
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  1896. @He loves you! You added the word "unjust". No where is that in the definition. By the way, you do realize the Bible promotes AND condones abortion? I suggest reading it. Your God is certainly NOT against abortion.
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  1897. Hypocrisy at its finest
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  1898.  @adamdfc9809  The fact that you are okay with abortion in some cases, but not others, is the very definition of hypocrisy. Only sentient organisms have a right to life.
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  1899. Justin Green And I think that's too late, but as I said, the average for an abortion is 6 to 9 weeks. Not even your first trimester. Outlaw all abortion and you'll only raise child abuse rates and the deaths of the mother's.
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  1900. Mathilde Young I'm for banning abortions from 12 weeks on when the heart beats separately from the mother and the nervous system begins to develop the nerve receptors. No, that is not my argument. My argument that when a life form has sentience, it deserves to be protected.
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  1901. Justin Green So you're a hypocrite. Good to know. How do you know some don't? Just because the law allows you in some states to have an abortion up to 26 weeks doesn't mean it even happens.
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  1902. Justin Green Because you claim to be against abortion, then say it's fine if the woman's life is in danger. That makes you a hypocrite. You are angry at someone for something you would support in another situation. That wasn't an insult by the way. Everyone's a hypocrite.
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  1903. Justin Green Not all the times if the mother dies the fetus would die. So yes you are. Not that there's inherently anything wrong with that. I bet you anything that you have criticized someone at some point for doing something you later did yourself or changed your view on. Opinions based on facts are still opinions. Facts can later be proven wrong. For instance, I'm anti death penalty. Facts support my argument. That doesn't mean people don't put a moral spin on it, which is the problem with the abortion debate. If it was strictly based on facts, you would be pro choice. But it isn't. It's also based on your own sense of morality.
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  1904. Justin Green No, the root cause is poverty, mental illness and physical stress. I agree with people doing everything to protect themselves. But that isn't an option for some people. It's not a feminist view to support a woman's right to have an abortion. It's simply a view people have because having a child you can't handle has serious consequences. Emotionally, physically and financially.
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  1905. Justin Green So what about people who can't take birth control? They should just deny their human nature? That isn't healthy, and forcing abstinence leads to some pretty fucked up mentality. By the way, doctors won't tie your tubes or give you a vasectomy before a certain age. My stepsister has lupus and her pregnancies are extremely difficult. No doctor will tie her tubes because she's too young.
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  1906. Justin Green All forms of birth control are essentially the same ingredients. Someone like myself cannot take any form of birth control. Forcing people to remain abstinent is what makes people sexually abuse others.
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  1907. It's called a fetus until its born. We colloquially call it a baby. That's just a medical and scientific fact.
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  1908.  @katie323  I'm sorry that you arent very scientific or factually accurate about abortion and believe only what people tell you instead of studying and interviewing people where this is their job. Ask any scientist or medical pr. Technically, not colloquially, it is a fetus until birth. A fetus is an in utero offspring of a mammal. I suggest you take a college biology or a&p course, assuming you're old enough.
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  1909. It's not murder. Murder by definition is unlawful. Killing and murder are not always interchangeable. It's not a child. It's a fetus who in most abortions doesn't have rights because it isnt sentient. Adoption isnt always an option. It isnt free to give a child up for adoption, and the system is broken. Agencies turn away children now, because they lack the room and funds necessary to care for them. Abortion should be a last resort. But there's a reason it's in place.
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  1910. Abortion is wrong in your subjective opinion. The fetus does not have it's own body. It is parasitising its mother in order to develop it's own body. Very rarely can you hear a childs heartbeat that early. And even then, it is not the fetus controlling that heartbeat, but the mother. The brain does not form until 16 weeks in. You know absolutely nothing about anatomy. Who cares if its human? Why are humans on a pedestal? You should make smart decisions, but not everyone does.
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  1911.  @onbjoe9226  Brain tissue doesn't even form until 12 weeks, because the brain forms from the brainstem out. Again, if you can hear a heartbeat at 22 days, the fetus isnt the one responsible for that. What you are hearing is the blood passing from mother to fetus in formation of what will become the cardiovascular system. Not everyone who has sex and gets pregnant did it without taking precautions. Several women I know got pregnant even when their boyfriends/husband had a condom AND they were on birth control. It is their right. It is called bodily autonomy. Abortion is not murder. And a fetus cannot be equated with a sentient child.
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  1912.  @onbjoe9226  Nice talking with you as well. Its perfectly fine to disagree. I hope to one day live in a world where there is no abortion.
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  1913.  @travisjohnson7065  So...when a doctor tells you if you don't have an abortion, your probability of dying is greater than 90%, what then? Or does that not happen in your view of reality?
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  1914.  @travisjohnson7065  I doubt its as high as the original commenter proposed, but you act as if that probabilty doesn't exist at all. And that is, frankly, delusional. Congratulations that you were just fine. Do you know why you were just fine? Because your delivery was normal. You weren't breech. You didn't rupture your amniotic sac or placenta. You were not ectopic. You were full term. You were a single baby. Your mother had no pregnancy complications. Do you see why your view may be a little skewed based on your anecdote? If one of these not at all rare things would have happened, you and your mother WOULD NOT have been fine. It doesn't matter the difference.
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  1915. You could also look at it the other way. Look at how man Jeffery Dahmers, Ted Bundys, and John Wayne Gacys may have been in that bunch. Not having sex doesn't work. That's unnatural for the human body. Contraception should of course be used if it can be, as some women can't take it. But it can fail. It seems unjust to me to force a child to grow up in a statically abusive and dysfunctional household instead of terminating it when it is incapable of feeling.
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  1916.  @blaecccuebbler7711  That still makes her a hypocrite. She advocates against the very thing she had access too. There's nothing wrong with changing your views. But to actively try to prohibit what you yourself participated in (not once but twice) based only on your experience is hypocritical and vile.
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  1917.  @blaecccuebbler7711  Debates should never be about morality. Morality is subjective. If you're arguing from strictly a moral standpoint, thats simply an argument from emotion. You cannot claim that abortion is immoral. Thats an opinion. So to advocate against something and to strip away the right you yourself partook in is hypocritical. The difference between drugs an abortion is one actively causes harm to sentient individuals. There is no victim in abortion any more than there is a victim in drugs (with the obvious exception of rape or forced drug use). That is an active decision one makes. Humans are not inherently valuable. Period. You may think they are, and thats your right to believe. Many women who go through abortions do not suffer. I maintain, as someone that had an abortion, that I did the right thing. Whether or not you agree with me is your opinion. You need to face the reality that not everyone feels the way you do.
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  1918. So is setting a child up for failure. Except in that case, the child is sentient and can feel and experience everything.
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  1919.  @MrAnonymous1515  The last thing I am is spoiled. Do you understand how damaging an unsafe environment is for a child? How about all those children that ended up dead anyways because their parents abused them? Try actually going to a detention center and hearing children scream that they wish they had been aborted because their future has now been ripped away from them. Death is certainly not the worst thing.
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  1920. Ashley Cesard Please go back to school.
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  1921. Ashley Cesard Yes and no. You could argue everyone needs an abortion because pregnancy does nothing beneficial for the mother. You could also argue pregnancy is the greatest gift. That's why there's choice.
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  1922. Ashley Cesard A fetus is not a baby. Medically or scientifically.
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  1923. Ashley Cesard And? Why does that matter? It doesn't. I think abortion should be the last resort, but I can understand why someone women choose to have one.
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  1924. Unintelligent Individual Because it doesn't meet the medical or scientific definitons for one. It's non sentient at the time of most abortions, and while technically it's not a baby until it's born, I don't believe in late term abortions.
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  1925. Unintelligent Individual If you honestly believe that, then i suggest going back and taking a high school biology course, because you clearly flunked it. Sentience is not irrevelevant. It's the whole reason we debate over topics like this. If something is not sentient and not beneficial to you, and you don't feel responsible enough to take care of it, then you should be allowed to make trust choice, even if we wished it didn't happen. No one is pro abortion. No one wants to see a woman get an abortion.
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  1926. Unintelligent Individual Morality is something that is subjective. It's not an argument to debate upon. Sentience is the ability to think and feel subjectively. A fetus, until a certain point, is unable to do this because it lacks a brainstem. Anyone who would argue the fetus isn't living is wrong. Because no one is. No one wants to see women abort children. But people who are pro choice understand why abortion happens and why someone would make that choice. Pro life people seem to struggle with this. You have a right to be pro life, and I understand why you would be. But you sometimes have to look at it from another perspective.
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  1927. Unintelligent Individual No, not if it's temporary. However, there's usually a difference between a comatose and lacking a brainstem entirely. If anyone, regardless of age, is brain damaged or dead to the point that they won't wake up and aren't capable of sentience, I don't find anything morally wrong with letting them pass. To me, that is not living. Your what if is a far shot case, and in those circumstances I would leave it up to doctors and parents. I would say if it was only a year, then allow them the time to try and recover.
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  1928. Ashley Cesard I never said the fetus isn't alive. It is. That's not the point.
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  1929. Ashley Cesard So what? Why not try thinking why a person chooses to have an abortion, instead if being from the viewpoint "eh they just don't want to take care of it"
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  1930. Ashley Cesard Except no one does that. They say "I'm not capable of taking care of it." There's a very big difference.
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  1931. Ashley Cesard Show me the evidence for people like that. Adoption rates have been in decline for over a decade. I'm fine with adoption, but agencies have been turning away children because they lack the space.
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  1932. Ashley Cesard Then they should go out and adopt the children that are there now, not hound people who have an abortion.
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  1933. You start of saying we need to look at facts, and immediately dive into feelings. For one, abortion isn't murder. This is a fact. Ever been to those places? Ever think that maybe those people would rather die then luve in the terrible conditions they do? That fetuses legal rights stop at the uterine wall. We can argue all day whether or not they should, but legally, they do. Again, you want to talk about facts, but bring up your Deity that has never been proven to exist. No one has inherent value. You're not special just because your born.
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  1934.  @micahblessing6119  Of course. However, words have established definitions and killing doesn't equate to murder.
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  1935.  @micahblessing6119  Yes, I do agree abortion is killing.
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  1936.  @micahblessing6119  An abortion. By the way, its a fetus. Not a baby. Neither medically or scientifically is a baby until after birth.
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  1937. You're aware that the Bible supports and sometimes calls for abortion, yes? Also, Catholics are the largest sect of Christianity.
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  1938. Because sometimes death is better than a life of pain and suffering. You can't miss something you never had.
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  1939.  @ethanm.2411  No, it isn't. Regardless, I think its up to the sentient mother to make an informed decision about what she thinks is best. Tell me, what is the difference between a child who dies to abusive parents and a child who was aborted? This happens every day. And this is why I think, for the time, abortion needs to be legal. I am all for exploring all other methods before settling on abortion.
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  1940. I know many followers of Christ who are absolutely absurd. Like you, for instance.
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  1941.  @cal1k  So...you're a hypocrite.
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  1942.  @cal1k  Because you're fine with abortion in certain circumstances and not others. That's hypocritical
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  1943. Hannah Vanduyn Hearing the pro birth people make me frustrated.
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  1944. Hannah Vanduyn Why does hear pro choice people make you frustrated?
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  1945. Hannah Vanduyn Hearing pro birth people makes me frustrated because they don't know the definiton of murder and don't give a shit what kind of situation a child is born into.
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  1946. Hannah Vanduyn Forcing a child to be born in an unhealthy and unstable environment, where adoption rates are low and agencies are broken and turn away children, is one of the most selfish things I've ever heard.
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  1947. Hannah Vanduyn The aborted fetus also never asked to be born and doesn't care if you abort it until a certain point. No, the UNLAWFUL killing of someone is murder. Abortion is not unlawful. Killing and murder are not interchangeable terms in all cases.
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  1948. Hannah Vanduyn Well that's you. Most people aren't like you. When you see the other side of the spectrum, you might have a different opinion.
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  1949.  @blaecccuebbler7711  And what's right is subjective. Fetuses are not people. They do not meet the definition of personhood at the time of most abortions. Thats why there's a limit.
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  1950. You mean those people who believe in that one book that SUPPORTS abortion?
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  1951.  @alfredatly3445  Except the Bible not only condones abortion, it also condones murder. You pick and choose which parts of the Bible to follow. By the way,, abortion isn't murder. That is a fact, not an opinion.
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  1952.  @alfredatly3445  Because it doesn't fit the definiton of murder.
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  1953.  @alfredatly3445  The unlawful killing of one human being by another.
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  1954. Umm no. Thats not even remotely similar.
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  1955. The fact that you actually think your post is a scientific fact is hilarious to me. You don't even know what the definition of murder is, yet pretend you do. I won't attack you, but I will attack your harmful beliefs. People like you are the reason I have to live in a wheelchair off the state for the rest of my life.
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  1956. You are ridiculous.
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  1957.  @himynameisandri  I don't believe you. Sorry, but I know from personal experience that isn't true. I've helped more than one woman go through Planned Parenthood, both for neonatal care and for abortions. I would assume, if that is true, that has to do with legal issues.
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  1958. They are the rare exceptions that don't look to abortion as a last resort, and do not speak for the majority. There are women out there, like myself, who cannot take contraception.
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  1959. @TheBookWorm1718 No, and I never said that. However, there is a percentage who can't.
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  1960. Most pro-lifers are uneducated about abortions. If you based your argument on facts, you'd be pro-choice.
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  1961.  @parthenon5106  People on both sides of the spectrum can be uneducated. My point was the facts about abortion support pro-choice, not pro-life. That doesn't mean pro-lifers are uneducated, but in general, they tend to be. Then again, that is anecdotal.
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  1962. lakes Abort them when they're not capable of feeling pain or emotions because it's better than the alternative.
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  1963. lakes Having them and then abusing and neglecting them because you are unable to take care of them
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  1964. Caroline Madison No, I would unplug their life support because they have no quality of life. There's no way to ever know a person would wake up. It's not the same concept. You don't even bother to consider why a woman has an abortion. You only assume she does it because it's inconvenient, instead of not being able to provide for it emotionally, physically and financially. You aren't pro-life. You're pro-birth. You don't give a shit about the quality of life a person has. You just want them to be alive.
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  1965. Unintelligent Individual Are you referring to abortion or to life support? If you're referring to life support, I was drawing a comparison. This is why I think it's important to have a living will, so instances like this don't occur. A living will and a power of attorney allows everyone to know exactly what you want done when you still are a sentient being. If you are referring to abortion, your argument fails in the sense that abortion is not homicide.
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  1966. Unintelligent Individual And? That's not homicide. Killing and murder are not interchangeable terms. I would like to see an end to abortion, but as of right now, I see why it happens. When you treat the root causes for why people have an abortion, only then can we hope to end it.
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  1967. Unintelligent Individual Depends entirely on the situation. I support a woman's right to have an abortion because I have seen the consquences of forcing and unfit mother to give birth.
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  1968. Unintelligent Individual Yes I believe in human rights of sentient beings. No, in general I do not believe in killing sentient human beings innocent or otherwise.
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  1969. Unintelligent Individual Then by your logic, animal rights should apply to all animals, including animals we kill and slaughter for their meat and skin. Why doesn't animal rights laws protect them? Certain requirements always have to be met to have rights. Prisoners aren't granted certain rights because of their actions. Minors aren't granted certain rights because of their age. A non sentient being isn't capable of acknowledging what rights are. That's why I think sentience matters.
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  1970. Unintelligent Individual Sentience is the ability to think and feel subjectively. Both humans and animals do this. And after a certain period of time, so does a fetus. At that point, I believe abortion should be off the table, though I wish abortions didn't happen at all.
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  1971. Unintelligent Individual None of those things. Personhood and morals are based on you and your experience. Nothing is conferred upon you other than your ability to think and feel subjectively. That, I believe, is what living is. As opposed to just being alive.
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  1972. Well, then you would just be wrong.
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  1973.  @parthenon5106  And that proves how much you fail at anatomy. How do you think an embryo develops? By attaching to the uterine wall and developing its own body by taking the nutrients of the mother. No matter how many times you say that a fetus is not part of the mother, it doesn't change the truth.
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  1974.  @parthenon5106  *denying. And yes you have. On multiple occasions. Including right now. Can a pregnant woman have two hearts? Yes. Thats a genetic defect. In general do they? No. But again, let me make this clear. That heart would not be forming without the nutrients from the host mother. A fetus cannot develop on its own. Its dependent on the mother it is attached to for development. It. Is. Attached. To. Her. Anything, positive or negative, that she does affects that fetus. You are incorrect to say a fetus is not part of the mothers body. However, you are not incorrect to say that as development continues, the fetus becomes less attached to the mother, and more of its own entity. That is why even pro-choice people are against late-term abortions. Understand?
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  1975.  @parthenon5106   asdf;lkj123  You have corrected me on multiple occasions of a mispelling. I thought it fair to do the same. I won't in the future if you do not want me to. No, it still is. And again, if you think it isn't, take an anatomy class. Are you seriously trying to tell me that an embryo, without development from the mother, has a pair of legs? Science does not say its an independent body. No scientist, for or against abortion, would tell you that. Being part of the woman's body at all, including attached and living off of her biologically, as you admitted to, makes the fetus a part of her. No, I'm not denying the truth. You are simply ignorant and biased.
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  1976.  @parthenon5106  You don't bother me. Just because we have differing opinions doesn't mean your a bother. I have never stood for late term abortion. Once a fetus gains sentience, abortion should be off the table. That is my personal view.
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  1977. Legality. Murder is strictly a legal term.
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  1978. One, pro-choice doesn't just apply to abortion. Many are against abortion, but support a person's right to die. Its not about life. Its about sentience.
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  1979.  @ChimpRevolution  Since when do we care about life? You a vegan? If not, you support the killing of life. Abortion is not irresponsible. Having a child you cannot take care of is irresponsible. Its not noble, but its not evil either. Also, what planet do you live on where abortion is convenient?
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  1980. Except its not a double homicide. Its unlawful termination of a pregnancy in nearly every case. Neither the law nor medicine considers a fetus a person. It does not meet the definition of personhood. Its not murder. Get your facts straight.
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  1981. The point of any debate is not to change your mind. It is to get you to see the other side, and sway those who are neutral to one side or the other.
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  1982. And no one really argues that. I could grant you that. Abortion is a legal debate, not a moral one.
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  1983.  @jordanthoughtz  No, its not moral. No one argues that abortion is wrong or shouldn't happen. The problem lies with being the lesser of two evils.
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  1984. Pro-life: I don't care about what kind of horrible situations a child is born into. I don't care that the mother is unfit and I'm not interested in my money giving her help. So long as the child is born, I don't care what kind of life it has, but I'll pretend that when that child gets abused, I don't know how it happened.
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  1985. Blue Diamond Pro-Life: I lack the basic understanding of what the definition of murder is and continue to sit by and watch children be abused and neglected, instead of trying to fix the problem.
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  1986. Blue Diamond Murder: The unlawful killing of one human being by another. Abortion is not unlawful, therefore is not murder. Child Abuse: Mistreatment of a child by a parent or guardian, including neglect, beating, and sexual molestation. Biologically and legally, a fetus is not considered a child until after it's born. You don't actively look for people who help the poor, nor do you know what their beliefs are. I give a third of my paycheck to a food bank, because I know what it's like to live that way. I do care. That's why I'm pro choice. Because I have seen the devastating effects caused when you force an unfit mother to give birth to a child.
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  1987.  @bluediamond4895  if it's lawful, then it isn't murder. Sorry, that's the basic definiton. Killing? Yes. Murder? No. Being right is completely subjective. I don't think stealing for survival is wrong, but many do. No, I don't know any pro-choice people who would kill a 2 year old. But I know plenty of pro life people who would never consider fostering an abused child. To think we're monsters is on you, not on me.
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  1988.  @bluediamond4895  I sponsor charity events, I donate money to food banks, I've offered my home to felons while they looked for a job. I do care. So don't fucking sit here and tell me I don't. I want one day to live in a world were abortion is no longer a thing. But outlawing it is not the way to go. You won't SAVE anyone by outlawing abortion. In fact, you'll only kill more people. You judge me based on one issue when you know absolutely nothing about me. You know why I am pro choice? Because I'm a failed fucking abortion who grew up in a shitty environment and was one of the lucky ones who was strong enough to pull through!
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  1989.  @bluediamond4895  A fucking fetus is not a child. For the love of God, take a basic fucking biology class.
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  1990. Science has never proven that the fetus is a different body in utero. You show me a fetus that can grow and develop its own eventual body WITHOUT implantation and attachment to a woman's uterus. Then you may have an argument. Slavery violated another SENTIENT BEING'S right. Abortion does not.
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  1991.  @liamturman  A fetus is 99% similar to its parents. Show me where a fetus can grow its own body without the use of a mother's uterus.
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  1992. Abortion should be off the table when the fetus becomes sentient. Human life is not irreplaceable or precious. You are no more special than anyone else. You arent born valuable. It is your unique experience in life that brings value to you, the people you connect with and the planet. Yes, protection should be used if it can be. But in some cases, it can't and in others, it doesn't work. No, you kill the fetus because you are not responsible enough the give it the proper care it needs. The fetus doesn't care until it has sentience. Its incapable of caring. That should be the line
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  1993.  @oladokunfrosh2967  I believe life, in the basic sense, does begin at conception. HUMAN life is really when the fetus is capable of being sentient. I don't think its carelessness. Most abortions happen because the mother is suddenly abandoned by friends and family when her pregnancy is discovered, especially if shes young. I do not believe in abortion as a form of birth control, which it is very rarely used as. That is not true. While it true that nerves begin to form only two weeks into fertilization, the fetus cannot feel pain, because there is no brainstem to register it. The brainstem doesnt develop until between 8 to 10 weeks. That is where the cutoff point, in my opinion, should be. Condoms do not always work, though I do agree in the use of protection. I don't believe in God, and the laws do not follow your religion.
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  1994.  @oladokunfrosh2967  No it doesn't because to me, life isnt the issue. I don't place humans on a pedestal, and consider it hypocritical to be let's say, anti-vegan or pro death with dignity. No I don't believe that. I don't believe it devalues or violates humanity. I think stripping away someone's right to an abortion violates their humanity. Murder by definition is unlawful. So at the very least in the US, abortion is not murder, as it doesn't match the definition. The US is not a failed society, nor is your sense or compass of morality objective. Morality is a subjective concept. That fetuses life is a parasite on me that would make it impossible for me to live without the proper care. It directly affects my life. Therefore, I decide what to do with it until it is no longer dependant on me from a biological perspective. Contraceptives should be made available, but there is a percentage of women (myself for example) who cannot take them. And they can fail as well. You are free to believe what you want. I don't believe human life has inherent value, and believe it is none of my business what another woman does with her body. I was religious for the majority of my life, but I realized that is was wishful thinking and silly to believe in something that has no evidence behind it. Things that, as of right now, can't be explained by science should not outright be attributed to a higher power. Unless you can back it up with evidence. I am an agnostic atheist. I know science right now does not have all the answers, but to assume something supernatural is silly to me.
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  1995. HighwayCurse Do you know it's also a sin to eat pork and seafood? Or to cut your hair? This is why religion doesn't dictate laws
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  1996. HighwayCurse I'm a Christian turned Agnostic Atheist.
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  1997. HighwayCurse I believe there is a difference between life and being alive. That fetus is not sentient and therefore is not living. But it is alive. I support a woman's right to have an abortion because I have seen the consequences of what happens when you force a woman who is unfit to give birth.
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  1998. HighwayCurse A woman who is not physically, emotionally or financially ready to care for a child.
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  1999. HighwayCurse I don't believe in God so that is irrevelant to me. People naturally want to have sex, and to deny that human nature is harmful. Now I agree precaution should be taken, however that is a choice one makes. Choice should be respected when it doesn't affect a sentient being.
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  2000. And not only proceeded to commit mass genocide, but certainly condones abortion.
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  2001. But unborn fetuses, legally, do not outside of the womb.
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  2002. You mean the late term abortions exclusively done for medical necessity? You guys really like being dishonest huh.
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  2003. It may perhaps traumatize some, but everyone is different. I have friends that both do and don't regret their abortions.
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  2004.  @parthenon5106  Why is it that they won't take care of older children? Oh, by the way, a vast majority of those "older children" have been in the system since infancy or early life. How come no one adopted them?
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  2005. You're genetics are literally half the mothers genes. The issue isnt life. Its sentience that matters.
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  2006. @Porto Fino No, actually the opposite is true. Abortion is not murder. That is not an opinion, but a fact (in the US). Abortion is not unlawful, nor does the government recognize a fetus as a human. You literally shot yourself in the foot. Abortion is killing. It is not murder.
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  2007. Hycinth Bucket The difference is you can't be sure an adoption agency will even take your baby, let alone give it to a good home.
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  2008. Hycinth Bucket How long ago was that? We have reports all the time of abuse going on in adoption and foster care homes because the families only want the government money.
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  2009.  @bigmacwithoutcheese8851  Theres no dehumanization in stating exactly what it is. Grow up and handle the truth
    1
  2010. I don't understand how pro-life people think, so I guess we're even.
    1
  2011. Good thing it's no murder. You should learn the definitions of words befor you use them. Oh, by the way. Did you know you can be pro-choice AND anti-abortion?
    1
  2012. You ever notice how so many people still can't pass a biology or a&p course because they don't know the difference between a fetus and a baby?
    1
  2013. Stop misusing language and telling a woman that her rights don't matter. Simple.
    1
  2014.  @Jowo1616  Its not a baby. Baby means "post utero". Fetus.
    1
  2015.  @Jowo1616  If we're being coloquial sure. We call it a baby. That doesn't make it correct language. I never said life doesn't begin at conception. Can you point out where I said that?
    1
  2016.  @maireadbrady6501  Conception.
    1
  2017.  @Jowo1616  Because abortion isn't unlawful, nor is a fetus considered human legally.
    1
  2018.  @Jowo1616  Just because its alive from conception doesn't make something murder. Murder is a legal term, and must by definition be unlawful. Aborting a fetus is not unlawful, and is not murder. Killing does not always equate to murder.
    1
  2019.  @NathanielClarkeson  And thats hypocritical. If your against abortion because "fetus/baby doesn't deserve it", then they don't deserve it regardless. Also "selfish reasons"? How is not wanting to have a child you can't care for "selfish"?
    1
  2020. @He loves you! You don't know the meaning of the word
    1
  2021. @He loves you! No, you really don't.
    1
  2022. Conservativewoman White Guilt Human beings naturally have sex. To deny sex is to deny human nature. Protection doesn't always work, isn't always available, or sometimes can't be used. You shouldn't have the choice to kill a fetus? Then you shouldn't have the choice to kill a robber who comes into your house. No one uses abortion as birth control. They realize they are not mentally, emotionally or financially ready to care for a child. So rather than have it and abuse it, they choose to abort it when it is unable to feel. You don't want taxpayers to pay for abortions? Then your tax dollars should go to taking care of that child for 18 years.
    1
  2023. Except it has to be implanted in her uterus and is biologically attached to her while it develops that "seperate" body. Science is certainly not pro-life. Its also not pro-choice. Its neutral and its facts can be used to argue for or against. Also, pro-life is immoral. It wants to strip away a woman's rights and the rights of the dying.
    1
  2024.  @liamturman  Because its using her uterus. You'll have an argument when it can develop on its own and doesn't have to use someone else.
    1
  2025. Except those things are not comparable.
    1
  2026.  @Machiavelli876  No, I'm not a nihilist. I'm realistic. No, you have no intrinsic value. You are not valuable just because you're born. No, the government defined what they BELIEVED to be self-evident. It also used the term believe. That didn't make them right, and that's why the option for abortion is out there. I'm all for everything before abortion. But I understand why abortions happen. And I would be happy to one day seeing an end to abortion.
    1
  2027. The government decides if its murder or not. That is literally the definition of murder.
    1
  2028. Nel Pack Perro Because it isn't about life. It's about sentience. People don't seem to understand that murder and killing do not have the same meaning. A fetus is not a child.
    1
  2029.  Lizzie Allen  You know absolutely nothing about the law concerning adoption, do you?
    1
  2030. Probably because your head is up your ass and you can't be bothered to look up the definition of murder.
    1
  2031. Oops McGee Irony isn't the word. Hypocritical is more accurate.
    1
  2032. Abortion is just as responsible as motherhood or adoption. Its recognizing you cannot care for another life. What's irresponsible, is to bring a life into this world you cannot properly care for.
    1
  2033. losers only I think most pro lifers are annoying cunts who want to but into other people's business and failed basic biology.
    1
  2034. Ethan Walker Because there is a difference between a non sentient fetus and a sentient human. Even if that human is a criminal. Abortion, just like execution, is not murder. I am pro choice because I have witnessed and experienced the consequences first hand of having a child you cannot care for.
    1
  2035. I call it "terminating life". So what? Life isnt the issue. Sentience is.
    1
  2036. As a failed abortion, absolutely yes. I would have lacked the capability to care had my abortion been successful. This is just for me personally.
    1
  2037. Not really. Science can't back up any side to abortion, because its framed as a moral issue. Sceince can be used as talking points, but it can't prove which side is correct.
    1
  2038. Contraception isn't an option for everyone, nor does it always work. Plan B isn't availabe to everyone. Most abortions happen begore the end of the first trimester. A non-sentient fetus that is developing by parasitizing me is my right. Abortion is just as responsible as contraception, adoption or motherhood. Having a child you cannot care for, therefore leading to neglect and abuse is NOT responsible.
    1
  2039. No, its not murder. And calling it such is factually inaccurate, so as it applies in the states. Also, you lose the argument when you bring in religion, as you have yet to prove that religion true.
    1
  2040.  @adfmo2195  1. No it isn't. It does not fit the established definition of murder. Whether or not you want to call it murder does not make it true. I would advise you actually look up the definiton of murder. Killing does not always equate to murder. 2. You lose when you use religion as thr foundation for your argument, as your religion as not been proven valid. That was my point.
    1
  2041. How about the verses in the Bible that condone abortion? Oh wait, those are metaphors right? Everything you DON'T agree with is a parable right?
    1
  2042.  @travisjohnson7065  Because slavery is a violation of the constitution.
    1
  2043.  @parthenon5106  Stawmanning the argument as usual.
    1
  2044.  @sabrinahardin9115  Pro-life with a few exceptions is still pro-choice.
    1
  2045. Green_shamrockz 1. Abortion is not murder, as it is not unlawful. 2. You have to prove a God exists first. 3. A fetus is not a child.
    1
  2046. Green_shamrockz 1. If it's legal, then it isn't murder since by definition, murder is UNLAWFUL. You can make an argument that it's killing. But it's not murder. 2. You know he does? How do you know this? How do you know you're worshipping the right God? You don't. You don't know. You simply believe. 3. Medically and scientifically, it's not. It is a fetus. Medically, it isn't a baby until after birth. I don't believe in late term abortions. However, if you are financially, emotionally or physically unable to care of that child, than i would rather a fetus, which amounts to a parasite at the time of most abortions, be aborted, than the child be born and either a) die to abuse and neglect or b) grow up to abuse and neglect someone else.
    1
  2047.  @blaecccuebbler7711  That's still a hypocrite by definition, which is not inherently a bad thing. We have all done things that we have then told others not to do. Still doesn't make the pro-life position right.
    1
  2048.  @blaecccuebbler7711  When one is trying to outlaw a practice they had the luxury of participating in, that his hypocrisy. Thats not stretching anything. And how do you know its years or decades? You don't. You're making assumptions. For whatever reason, they want to take away from others an act they participated in. Advice is still, often, hypocritical. Everyone is a hypocrite with something.
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  2049.  @jessie9775  I literally never said they weren't people. Human fetuses are people, babies are people. Yes, they are alive. So is grass, bugs, and animals you eat. They aren't sentient. Thats the point. It is terminating a life. So what?
    1
  2050. rule the slejj please stay in school. You need it.
    1
  2051. Actually, I do have that right. I have a right to be rid of something that I cannot handle. If Jesus does that, He s a scumbag asshole who doesn't give a shit about the quality of life my child would have. Guess what? Some women can't take contraception. I should have to repress my urges for You? Fuck you. You want to see an end to abortion. I do as well. So focus on treating the reasons for abortion. Then women won't have to get them.
    1
  2052. Okay, so assuming I believe you, your anecdotal evidence means nothing. It is simply your personal experience. I know several women who have had abortions and it helped them turn their life around. And although they miss their unborn, they realize it was for the best.
    1
  2053.  Lizzie Allen  I'm well aware.
    1
  2054. Shadow Plays Adoption isn't always an option anymore. Agencies turn away children because of overcrowding. No one wants an abortion, but right now, it may be a woman's only option.
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  2055. The unborn isnt conscious and has no ability to make decisions or feel. There are ground rules. Abortion should be outlawed when the fetus is sentient.
    1
  2056. Sydney Lechner People have sex. That's human nature. I agree in taking th proper precautions, but some people just don't/can't. There's more than enough children already in the adoption system for people who want a child, yet adoption has been in decline since 05.
    1
  2057. Tamang Tman Because trust me, it would rather die then attempt to be raised in some of the hells we have in the world. Once again, the fetus doesn't care. You can't miss a life you never had.
    1
  2058. Tamang Tman I never said the fetus wasn't alive. It is. It's just not sentient. Never did I say it wasn't living, although I think "living" and "being alive" are different. No, I'm saying that as a sentient being, if it is born into an unstable environment, it would wish it had been aborted when it couldn't care.
    1
  2059. Tamang Tman It doesn't. Because it has no brainstem. I'm saying it would rather have died if you force it to be born.
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  2060. Sydney Lechner You can't force someone to be a parent. If they do not know how to take care of the child they won't be able to be a parent. Adoption should be considered I agree, but that is such a broken system.
    1
  2061. Tamang Tman Because I hear every day from people "I would have rather been aborted." People who are born into unstable environments go through hell.
    1
  2062. Sydney Lechner How can I not think that way when I have children every day who tell me they wish they had been aborted? Some can't physically or mentally overcome that situation.
    1
  2063. Thentacle Its not murder dingbat.
    1
  2064. Nope, because a fetus doesn't have a constitutional right to life until sentience is achieved. Granted I think abortions should be outlawed after the first trimester, since by then sentience is achieved. You have no inherent rights. You only have rights because a government says you do.
    1
  2065.  @jonvint  Theoretically? Yes, absolutely. Doing that would probably lead to anarchy, but that is usually how dictatorships start
    1
  2066.  @jonvint  No, there are no such thing as "inherent rights". That would imply that there is a natural force outside of society that would give you rights. My statement was meaning what we identify and define as "inherent rights". Things that cannot be infringed upon, because thats hiw our country was founded. People feel the need to resist because they have been conditioned by society of what is right and wrong. That is why laws and morals, as well as rights, change depending on the time period and the culture.
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  2067.  @jonvint  Nothing is inherently wrong, because objective morality does not exist. I am a moral relativist. I believe things are immoral based on secular humanism
    1
  2068. Being selfish and thinking about what is best for you long term is not a bad thing. Abortion isn't murder. That's not an opinion here in the States. And if abortion WAS murder, it would be murder in any case.
    1
  2069. Except abortion isn't muder and the Bible actively has scripture pertaining to killing a pregnant woman. How is that not abortion?
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  2070. There is no harm in endangering the child, because the child never gets a chance to exist and isnt sentient.
    1
  2071.  @SydLane  Have you ever actually been homeless? Sounds like you haven't. How about being homeless for extended periods? How about having to resort to crime to get by? Ever been on that side? You can be opposed to abortion, but at least be educated about the subject. Its not murder. Its not a baby. You always have the right to abortion. Its a constitutional right.
    1
  2072. We have a word for people like you . Hypocrite.
    1
  2073. So what about the cases when protection fails?
    1
  2074. Chris Jackson Question. Why is That? It's not the fetuses fault the mother got raped or has medical issues. Why should it be allowed to be aborted for those reasons, but not because a mother can't care of it emotionally, financially and fiscally? How hypocritical.
    1
  2075. Chris Jackson Im not getting on the offensive. I'm just pointing out your hypocrisy. If you really believe most women use abortions as birth control, that's really sad. Did you know there are people who can't take birth control or use condoms? Why should they have to deny their natural instinct? It seems plain wrong to me that you place different outcomes on a pedestal. I could say that woman shouldn't have let herself be assaulted. She should have fought it off. Doesn't that sound stupid to you? Who cares who's fault it is? It's hypocritical that would force an unfit mother to give birth to a child she can't handle because she laud down willingly, but it's fine to kill the fetus if she's raped. It's just like people who say it's fine to commit suicide if your physically terminal, but it's not okay if you're suffering mentality. You're not on moderate ground. Your one the extreme side. You think women should have their abortion rights stripped if they sleep willingly.
    1
  2076. Chris Jackson I cannot use birth control because I have CVID and Lupus. Birth control raises my blood pressure and thins my blood and can cause severe health problems. Some men I know are severely allergic to condoms. Yes, that is situational and specific. But there are people who can't. But, you also shouldn't have to. Taking a pill everyday is irritating and condoms are uncomfortable and can break. Birth control can fail. You'd be surprised at how hard it is to pull out. Hormones are very strong chemicals. You could make the argument that any sex in negligent then. You can have protected sex and still get an STD. I would argue the choice for abortion is a responsible one. It's not natural to rape someone. It is however natural to want to have sex. If there's an ugly guy out there that can't get laid, he probably masturbates. I wonder how many billions of children he kills that way. No, we shouldn't allow people to victimize each other. That's a ridiculous idea and not at all what I said. Everything affects your health. Abortions, the food you eat, who you associate with, pregnancy. That's not an argument. Abortions don't even affect your physical health. It's your emotional health they affect, which can in turn affect your physical health. The fetus then should not pay in any circumstance. Otherwise you are a hypocrite. A woman should never be forced to carry a child if she doesn't want it, rape or not. That statement is full of crap. People have unprotected sex. Abortion does not make a couple any more likely to have unprotected sex. You can still get pregnant with protection. Aborting a rape baby doesn't do anything to lessen then pain that the woman was raped. It doesn't undo the rape.
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  2077. Chris Jackson I'm not throwing you an ad hominem by calling you a hypocrite. That's what you're being. It's not even an insult. Everyone is a hypocrite about something. It just bothers me that you advocate for taking away a woman's rights. That doesn't deserve respect. I can respect you as a person without respecting your views and opinions
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  2078. Chris Jackson If it's self defense, then it isn't murder because self defense is not unlawful, so that argument doesn't hold water. This is a topic where it's all or nothing. If you only support certain people allowed to have an abortion, you are neither pro-life or choice. You advocate taking away women's rights for abortion unless it is a rape or medical complication. That's not okay in my opinion. Comedy, Speech, Abortion...these are all or nothing in my point if view. You can either let all abortions be legal, or make it illegal across the board. Otherwise it's hypocritical and playing favorites.
    1
  2079. In order to believe that, you would have to be anti war, anti gun, anti death penalty, vegan and believe life has intrinsic value. Otherwise, you're just a hypocrite. No sweetie. Murder has an established definition. Quit trying to change it to suit your narrative. What's right? How can you objectively show that giving birth is right? How about all those unwanted children who died at the hands of unfit parents? How is that any different than abortion (other than abortions occur BEFORE a child can feel pain or experience)
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  2080.  @fletch84  Well. Good thing abortion isn't murder.
    1
  2081.  @fletch84  So what? Why is human life on a pedestal?
    1
  2082.  @fletch84  I think terminating the development of a non-sentient fetus for a legitimate reason is neither good nor bad.
    1
  2083. My how the educational system has failed you.
    1
  2084. Are you aware that you can sign a legal document that prevents them from doing it and allows you to do what you want with the fetus? (Bury, cremate etc.)?
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  2085.  @ebonie4002  A fetus is not a baby until after it is born. This is both medically and biologically. As long as it is in utero, it is a fetus.
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  2086. Science does nothing to either support or disprove the concept of value. Value is a description we give to things. Science, as a concept, cannot tell you something is valuable. Only your specific psychology can. Yes, science is clear that life begins at conception. Thats not a point for pro-life. Humans do not value life. They value sentience. If life is so much more valuable than bodily autonomy, should a doctor be allowed to take organs from living people who could live without them, and donate them to people who need them to live without consent? A woman has a right to terminate a pregnancy, because all rights are equal. The fetuses right to life is equal to the mother's right to liberty. She does not consent. That fetus is violating her liberty. Your last sentence by the way is entirely hypocritical.
    1
  2087.  @Milk7ss  Pro-life people make themselves look bad. Don't need an "agenda" to just show their anti-rights.
    1
  2088.  @Milk7ss  You could. But you'd be wrong.
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  2089. Sex was not created. It's a natural human process. And it isnt just for procreation. Sex is a healthy thing that improves the health of the body. Abstinence does not work. Preach open communication and safe sexual practices. Not abstinence. That's one of the reasons teenage pregnancies happen so much.
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  2090. Marie Cassandra No, I have nothing tugging on me. I get annoyed and irritated when pro-lifers try to use your emotions as an argument for why you shouldn't have control of your body, instead of reason and evidence.
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  2091. Marie Cassandra Maybe because they actually can't care for the child? That's not for inconvenience, that's making a reasonable decision. When you have people coming up everyday saying "I wish I had been aborted" there's a serious problem.
    1
  2092. Marie Cassandra If you understood, then you would understand why they don't do that. First off, it's pregnancy/birth is detrimental to a woman's health. It does nothing good for her. Second, adoption agencies are overcrowded and underfunded with no guarantee of a child ever being adopted. When it's the same people every day saying they wish they had been aborted, I take it at face value. They hate their lives. You aren't killing a baby. You are killing a non sentient developing fetus. There is a huge difference between life and potential for life.
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  2093. We don't cringe at the idea of adoption. We just understand that the system is broken, and many people will never be adopted. If you opt for a private adoption, then its not free. Thats a huge legal procedure. And is not available to everyone.
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  2094. Nightmare 6273 He absolutely has a say. He just doesn't have the final say, and I think they should have open conversations with the woman about it.
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  2095. You do realize that Pro-abortion isn't a thing and that you can be pro-choice and anti-abortion right? Evil is subjective. And defending one's rights, whether it be to abort or to have a child, will never be wrong.
    1
  2096.  @buckthorn7084  So you don't understand that pro-choice doesn't just apply to abortion. And no. Our Constitution is secular. It is seperate from religion. Not everyone is religious. And by the way, assuming you're a Christian, your God? He's not pro-life. Your own Bible condones abortion. Our rights are equal. I do not have the right to live at someone else's expense. I have a right to what goes on with my organs.
    1
  2097.  @buckthorn7084  While our founders may have been deists, they were also secularists. The Declaration of Independence and the Constitution are secular documents. Not religious ones. The freedom of religion is also the freedom from religion.
    1
  2098.  @buckthorn7084  You realize that you can be both a theist and a secularist right? If they weren't secularists, they would not have wanted a representative republic. They would have wanted a monarchy or a theocracy, which is what we fought against. Where God is placed first, regardless of which God it is. You can be an atheist and be a moral person. You can be morally corrupt and be religious. And vice versa. Separation of church and state was inacted because our Fathers were secular deists.
    1
  2099.  @buckthorn7084  They literally did. I'm sorry, but there's no point in debating someone who ignores facts. No one is advocating for tyranny. Our fathers litterally put it as the First Amendment. Its called the Establishment clause, and the Supreme Court applied it through the 14th amendment. You don't have to be religious or believe in a God to be a good person. Period.
    1
  2100.  @buckthorn7084  Our founding fathers were not Christians. They were secular deists. You can't advocate for a being you cannot prove even exists, and it certainly should not be part of your government. I hope you realize what's going on has nothing to do with religion.
    1
  2101.  @buckthorn7084  I can't reject something I do not believe in. If you can provide me with evidence as to a God's existence, I will happily consider belief in one. The vast majority of those at the Constitutional Convention were simply deists. Yes, they believed in a God. Believed that a deity played a role in life. But they believed all God's were equal. That all religions were equal. A few of them being Christian does not change the fact that they were secular, who believed that without separation of church and state, we could not have freedom of religion. They FEARED theocracy. I don't ignore that. In fact, in every comment, I have stated to you I understood that. What you fail to understand if that believing that God is essential doesn't mean you aren't a secularist. Secularism means THE CHURCH can't have sway over the government and vice-versa. Secularism has 0 to do with a belief in a God.
    1
  2102.  @buckthorn7084  Any church.
    1
  2103.  @buckthorn7084  I would seriously google what the "establishment clause" is. You are extremely ignorant...
    1
  2104.  @buckthorn7084  It's the clause in the First Amendment of the US Constitution that prohibits the establishment of religion by Congress.
    1
  2105.  @buckthorn7084  If religion was established, we would be a theocracy. Run by the church. That's why the Establishment clause is in the First Amendment. What does any of this have to do with abortion, by the way?
    1
  2106.  @buckthorn7084  This conversation is going nowhere. My only point was while God was central to the Father's foundation, it was important to them to seperate the views of the church from the government. That's why the Constitution is secular. Abortion is a right. Maybe one day, we won't have a need for it.
    1
  2107.  @buckthorn7084  Except you're wrong. And it has nothing to do with my atheism. Why do you think Roe vs. Wade was even passed? Because no one has the right to life at the expense of someone else. That's laid out in the Constitution. Its called the right to liberty.
    1
  2108.  @buckthorn7084  Actually, legally, yes it is. The government does not consider a fetus a person until a period of time where sentience is well established. Whether or not this is moral is up to each individual. A fetus does not have the right to use my uterus for it's life without my explicit consent. It is not my fault that it cannot live outside my organ. This is the same case where even in a life or death scenario, I do not have the right to your kidney, even if without one, I will die.
    1
  2109.  @buckthorn7084  It doesn't matter what the purpose of the organ is. No one but me gets rights to them unless I give the okay. It's really that simple. You cannot be forced to give your kidney to someone else, even if it means they will die without one. That is not your responsibility. The point is the comparison. My uterus belongs to me*, not a fetus. *I decide what's done with it. That being said, I understand where you come from. I still have my son's remains from when he was aborted. It was horrible, and I wish more people would consider abortion as a last resort.
    1
  2110.  @buckthorn7084  The diffence between a fetus and a slave is sentience. These 2 are not comparable.
    1
  2111.  @buckthorn7084  I, unfortunately, had to. I developed a medical complication due to a bleeding disorder. Its unlikely my son would have been viable anyway.
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  2112. I hold no issue to the fact that I'm terminating a non-sentient human.
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  2113.  @ashchong  Yes they are. A comatose person is still sentient, as their brain is still functioning. Just because they cannot express it does not mean they aren't sentient. The cutoff date for abortion should be when sentience is achieved.
    1
  2114.  @ashchong  Fetuses in the womb do not have a brainstem in order to have expression. A comatose person does. Also, I'm 100% fine with pulling the life support plug. Should be up to the person. Most people have a DNR for a reason. Also, no it doesn't. Sentient person vs non-sentient fetus.
    1
  2115.  @ashchong  No. A fetus only gains sentience when a brainstem develops. This is long after most abortions
    1
  2116.  @ashchong  No, they still are sentient. You apparently don't know what the definition of sentience or murder is. What planet do you live on where abortion is convenient?
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  2117.  @mathildeyoung1823  Sure, if you made abortion illegal, it would be murder. But then you would face the federal problems Alabama is facing. In that you are violating the federal law. Abortion is never convenient. And personally, I know not one woman who did NOT care about their child. They simply felt they could not care for it, and aborted to spare it a hard life. Hell, my best friend still has the remains of her aborted fetus on het dresser, as a constant reminder to never put herself in that sitiation again.
    1
  2118.  @SydLane  Would I rather be dead at this point in time? No. Would I have rather been aborted than had to go through what I did? Yes. I'm still alive now because I didn't have the capability of killing myself when I was younger. I am now in a position where, while not perfect or really even happy, life is tolerable. If we're speaking on the matter of abortion, its because its a right. I care about people pretending like they care and pretending like abortion is such a terrible thing all the while sitting back and watch those children be neglected and abused by unfit parents and a broken state. I'm here because at this moment, I'm content enough to go on. But what I trade what I have now for never being alive at all? Without a doubt.
    1
  2119. Oh please. A majority of abortions are paid out of pocket. And depending on where the woman goes, even if she uses medicaid, you have the Hyde Amendment.
    1
  2120.  @lizettegomes6955  Pro-life people are against abortion and euthanasia for humans. Pro-choice people support the right to die with dignity and for a woman to abort.
    1
  2121. You do realize that your God certainly condones abortion, right?
    1
  2122.  @BD-vh1mt  Hosea is a good example. You know, where God commands the Israelites to rip open the wombs of pregnant women and slaughter their unborn.
    1
  2123.  @BD-vh1mt  Keep going with your apologetics for mass murder. Your Sky Daddy is so proud of you.
    1
  2124.  @BD-vh1mt  Yeah no. Thats not what the Bible says. The Bible describes your God as wrathful and vengeful, and you supposedly believe he never changes. The Old Testament, and even parts of the New Testament is wrought with despicable acts carried out by God. But hey, thats only when taken literally. I'm not mad at God. I can't be mad at something I don't believe in. I'm mad at what religion sometimes makes people do. No, I'm just a skeptic. I'd be religious if any religion could provide a shred of evidence their God was real. Until then, I'm an agnostic atheist, which I feel is the most honest position.
    1
  2125.  @BD-vh1mt  See, you use the term created with no evidence of creation. The difference between you and me is I'm okay admitting I don't know. That has nothing to do with faith. You are now using the word faith and applying two definitions, which is incredibly dishonest. The great thing about science is it can be wrong. And when it is, we can fix it.
    1
  2126.  @BD-vh1mt  You are using the term faith in a religious sense and then compairing it to faith as a synonym for confidence. Those are two different things. I have confidence in science, but understand it doesn't have all the answers and can change. Truth is a human concept.
    1
  2127.  @BD-vh1mt  There is no such thing as an absolute that never changes.
    1
  2128. The Bible condones abortion, so that's not a good example.
    1
  2129. Kelly Johnson God says nothing, because you can't prove he exists.
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  2130. Kelly Johnson Looking around at life just proves people have sex. That's not evidence for a God. That's evidence for human nature.
    1
  2131. Kelly Johnson No it doesn't. The world is only proof of the worlds existence. Where and who gives life depends entirely on what species you're talking about. I don't know how the world works, and frankly, I don't care. Existence does not equal creation.
    1
  2132. Kelly Johnson The Bible has no contradiction? Are you serious? Then you clearly haven't read it. The bible is a collection of writings that were compiled together, none of which were eyewitness accounts for Jesus or his life. I was a Christian. That was my true ignorance. Because I believed in something with 0 evidence. Sure, maybe when I die, I'll find out there is a God. I'll cross that bridge then.
    1
  2133.  @ashchong  I never denied it was a living person. I am not a hypocrite who puts life on pedestals. Senteince matters to me. Not life.
    1
  2134.  @ashchong  It is not eliminated at will, but its simply becauae the mother has rights that the fetus does not. I am of the opinion that abortions should be off the table after the first trimester. That is my stance on it.
    1
  2135.  @ashchong  No, its not. Thats a false equivalence fallacy. Murder is taking the life of a sentient being. Most abortions are terminating the development of a living fetus. It doesn't care. Why should you?
    1
  2136.  @ashchong  No, because it doesn't biologically depend on a host for survival
    1
  2137.  @ashchong  Thats not entirely true, but it doesn't depend on a host for its survival biologically. Sure, odds are, if you threw a toddler out on its own, it would not survive. But it doesn't depend on a host. The difference is the literal definition of a parasite and the colloquial definition of a parasite.
    1
  2138. Have you ever talked to an abused individual? Growing up unloved and unwanted makes it almost impossible to know what love is. We are social creatures, and depriving someone of that socialization destroys them.
    1
  2139.  @bryonnajones  That was you. Not everyone feels that way. I deal with people every day who have emotionally and physically damaged themselves because they so badly want to die. You may not feel that way, but many others do.
    1
  2140.  @bryonnajones  A non sentient being doesn't care if it lives or dies. They can't want to live without sentience. That's when abortion should be off the table
    1
  2141.  @bryonnajones  It is ultimately the mothers decision until the fetus is sentient
    1
  2142.  @LuZ-rd5yl  If you were a hardcore pre-med student which you claim, you would know that you don't prove things in science. You prove things in math. So I don't believe for a second you're a med student. You didn't even hyphenate it. Secondly, you're working on a false precedent. What is your evidence of this so called creation? Creation =/= Existence.
    1
  2143.  @LuZ-rd5yl  No, not at all. I work alongside plenty of Christian doctors. I don't believe you because you didn't know the basics of science. I think you're claiming you're a pre-med student to make yourself seem more credible. As of this moment, no. Philosophy needs evidence. Math needs proof. I'm currently in medical school, and if you are a pre-med major, then you have a long way to go before a MC will accept you. You should pick a profession thats suited to your strengths. Good luck.
    1
  2144.  @LuZ-rd5yl  I'm sorry if they hurt. I'm very distrusting of people who try to hype themselves up, but I can truly admit when I'm wrong. If your faith drives you to go for your goal, then by all means, pursue it. While we may not have the same belief system, we can both be damn good people. Yeah it is. Even harder doing it online because of this virus outbreak. What track of medicine are you pursuing?
    1
  2145.  Lizzie Allen  I doubt God would have an issue, since he actively calls for abortion in some parts of the Bible.
    1
  2146. Once you are pregnant, it's not longer preventable. Condoms cannot be used by everyone and sometimes fail. Birth control cannot be taken by everyone and sometimes fail. Aborting the fetus when it is non sentient and being a biological parasite on me is STILL my choice.
    1
  2147. Stephanie Rosenow Most doctors will not perform any kind of operation on you until you are halfway into your 30's because you could suddenly decide you want to have children. Murderers are only charged with a double homicide if the mother is 5 months along or more, because that is when the fetus starts showing signs of sentience. Life in general is inherently not valuable. I agree with abortion being the last option, and if things changed, maybe one day we could end abortion. But the law will not change until these conditions are met.
    1
  2148. Stephanie Rosenow It shouldn't be about life. It should be about sentience. A fetus is not a child. I understand you not like abortion, but it's important to distinguish these two things.
    1
  2149. Stephanie Rosenow A fetus isn't a child, so no. Life doesn't matter. Sentience is what matters. If you cared about life, you'd never harm anything, including being anti death penalty and vegan. At a base level, we're all a cluster of cells. But no, I think a fetus is more than that. It's a developing human. I lost my uterus to a murderer, so I know how that feels. Once again, it's a fetus and they cannot suffer, as they lack a brainstem or brain. If you can have a child and take care of it, please do. But don't force others too. They'll only abuse those children when they're sentient
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  2150. Stephanie Rosenow No, I'm using it as an argument against your statement that life was valuable. If life were so valuable to you, then one would assume ALL LIFE regardless of innocence should be protected. Otherwise, you'd be a hypocrite. You can believe children are innocent. Some are and some aren't. But a fetus is not a child.
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  2151.  Tim Account  Not until its sentient. From a legal perspective.
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  2152.  Tim Account  Depends on the stage its in.
    1
  2153. Anyone who says it isn't human flunked biology. Being human doesn't matter. A woman has the right to bodily autonomy.
    1
  2154.  @victoriamoreno4966  Except that doesn't happen except with late term abortions, which are nearly exclusively for medical purposes. Also no. Most abortions take place before the end of the first trimester.
    1
  2155. The whole purpose of sex is to procreate only if you're religious. Sex is meant to be pleasurable. Many people who cannot procreate have sex because it's a naturally healthy thing to do, both physically and for a relationship. Just because a fetus is human, and is medically alive, is not an argument. It should be about sentience, not life.
    1
  2156. Then it should not have to use my uterus to develop.
    1
  2157.  @ethanm.2411  I think human rights are equal and your right to life should not be at the expense of someone else. I think abortion should be a last resort and should be considered carefully. Precisely. It can't develop anywhere else. And I should not lose my consent because a fetus wants a host for 9 months. That should be a decision left up to me. Who placed it there doesn't really matter because consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. But steps should be taken to minimize this possibility, and people don't always take them unfortunately.
    1
  2158.  @ethanm.2411  Mine sometimes don't either and I have no idea why
    1
  2159.  @strive4252  You're experiences are unique, but you yourself are not. You are not inherently valuable. Value of life is entirely subjective.
    1
  2160.  @strive4252  No one else matches your DNA? You failed biology. Perhaps no one matches you identically (unless you're a twin) but your DNA is similar to that of all other humans. No, I'm just like other humans.
    1
  2161. Funny. Because the Bible certainly supports abortion.
    1
  2162.  @CarolinaMangos  No need. I could quote you plenty of verses that call for abortion. You just want to cherry pick, and I'm not interested in listening to liars.
    1
  2163. Adoption is an invalid argument. Yes, adoption should be looked into. But you make it sound like you just walk up, hand them your baby, and walk away. That is not how it works. Theres paperwork and money that's involved. Even then, theres no guarentee that the child would ever be adopted. Guess what happens then? They're kicked out with nothing. Over 70% of juveniles I see were adopted or in foster homes. By the way, your God outright supports and even calls for abortion. You may want to read your Bible again.
    1
  2164.  @catfishbilly9191  The adoption process often takes years to finalize. You are extremely lucky if you find one within 9 months. I dont believe in God. Murder by definition is unlawful. Abortion is not unlawful
    1
  2165.  @catfishbilly9191  Just because I dont believe in God doesnt mean I haven't read or dont understand the Bible.
    1
  2166.  @maddybrown2320  "stick a knife in the pregnant womans body, its called a double homicide" Only if she's 20 weeks or more. Way to show your lack of knowledge about the US federal law. If the killing is not unlawful, it isn't murder.
    1
  2167.  @maddybrown2320  Abortion is unlawful in 1 state which is currently facing problems from the federal government. It is NOT unlawful. The state does not trump the feds. I doubt you know how its done, because all you'll see is surgical abortions. Those are not common anymore. Most abortions are performed via a pill that forces the body to abort the fetus. Then the fetus is delived as it would if it was a miscarriage.
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  2168.  @Racools  Hi hello. Didn't get a notification.
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  2169. Good advice. But that doesn't really help after the fact.
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  2170.  @travisjohnson7065  Since when is the Bible pro-life?
    1
  2171. @Sz Tiffany zS I never denied it is alive. It is. But that doesn't matter. Sentience should be the deciding factor, not life.
    1
  2172. @Sz Tiffany zS I believe comatose individuals should be allowed to pass on. Someone with no quality of life. However, this is why I believe in advanced directives. A will, so your family and friends know exactly what you want done. Should they be allowed to live? If that's what they wanted when they were conscious. That's a decision that's ultimately up to the family. I only know what I would do.
    1
  2173. @Sz Tiffany zS A child in the womb is not "virtually comatose". They aren't sentient. That's why I made the distinction of abortion being off the table when it is their body. I.E. when they are no longer biologically dependent on me as a mother. I do have that choice, because it is my body they are destroying to survive. Once they are independant from me (when the brainstem develops and sentience begins) that's when it's no longer my choice.
    1
  2174. @Sz Tiffany zS No it doesn't. A fetus literally steals vital nutrients you need to keep your body healthy. This is why neo natal care is so stressed by doctors. I'm not saying you can't adjust, because you can if you're willing. It's not terribly difficult. But if you dont try, not only will you probably lose the fetus, you can do some serious damage to your own organs.
    1
  2175. Congratulations. Your part of a few group who wasnt aborted and didn't go through immense pain and suffering. Not everyone was that lucky.
    1
  2176. And here we have a moron in its natural habitat. Please take a biology class.
    1
  2177. I would say its obvious you haven't read the Bible, as the word "abortion" is never mentioned. However, God condones and even demands in several passeges and stories that killing an unborn is fine. Also, abortion isn't muder. Thats just a fact
    1
  2178. Abortion isn't a moral issue either. Its a legal issue. Morality is subjective which, by the way, the Bible certainly condones. Murder is unlawful by definition. Abortion is not unlawful amd is therefore not murder.
    1
  2179. Or you can base your judgment on the fact that it doesn't matter if its human because human life has no inherent value. Its where you place that value that determines the route you go.
    1
  2180. Because that is usually, statistically, the case. And to disavow that just because some people can live successfully when they've had a bad childhood is ignorant, delusional and disrespectful to those many more that don't
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  2181.  @jai7money541  I never said I would necessarily, though I did have to go through an abortion with my first child. I don't believe in a God. I simply believe that if I can't give my child the ability to thrive in a loving environment, than I would rather them not suffer. I love my children and I had them at a point where I am able to care for them. But so many people are not in my position, and they have a right to do what's best for them. I have the right to deny a life when it is infringing on my rights. It is not my fault a fetus cannot grow outside of my womb. I, honestly, wish it could. Forcing your ideals on someone else is ignorant, delusional and disrespectful.
    1
  2182. @Humanity Galatica Nope. I'm simply telling people how I see it and my point of view. I have no intention of changing anyone's mind. Meerly offering them a different perspective. Forcing beliefs, even if it is the belief of the majority, is not okay to me.
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  2183. @Humanity Galatica It is also those struggles that lead to mental illness, hardship, and crime. Do not stand to lecture me on the hardships of life. Don't grandstand about how struggle is better than death unless you have been on BOTH sides.
    1
  2184. Look at all these comments of people who don't know the difference between a fetus and a baby. You know what's psychotic? Forcing your views on others. That fetus at the time of most abortions is biologically dependant on the mother. So it IS her body! It's ATTACHED to her. Double homicide depends on how far the mother is in the pregnancy.
    1
  2185. Plan B is not cheap, not available everywhere and some women cannot take it. Condoms and birth control don't prevent pregnancy. They just lower the chances. No, its terminating a non-sentient fetuses devlopment. Some heartbeats cannot even be detected until 3 to 4 weeks after conception, and it isn't beating without the help of the mother. Abortion is not murder. Some of us who got the chance at life wished we didn't. Did you even consider that? Are you really that ignorant and selfish that you wod force misery on a mother and her child for your own gratification? Abortion being "wrong" is a subjective opinion. The purpose of a debate is not to change minds. Its to influence someone who has to made a decision and get the opposition to acknowledge your side. If your "pro-choice" you're not against abortion. I highly suggest you actually research how most abortions are done, because they're rarely done surgically. You don't know they would have had any of that anyway. Stop being dishonest. No, I didn't murder a human. I terminated a non-sentient parasite that was devloping by leeching off me. (In most cases). Here's a fun activity. Volunteer at a juvenile hall and listen to children as young as 8 scream about wishing they had been aborted becauae their lives were ruined at the hands of unfit parents.
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  2186. An abortion isn't murder. You aren't inherently valuable. Why not look at it from a different perspective?
    1
  2187. Baby literally means post utero. Its not a baby until after birth. Fetus. Its a fetus until birth.
    1
  2188. How is it inhumane if the fetus is incapable of feeling anything? The issues isn't about life. Its about sentientence. Also, why only human life? You dont care about the inhumane ways animals are slaughtered to make food, or how many pests you kill. Killing and murder are not always interchangeable. Quit using them like they are. You people are hypocrites who only care about the life, and not the quality of life.
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  2189. @He loves you! Except no one murders a baby when an abortion takes place. The act of abortion is neither murder nor is a baby involved.
    1
  2190. The vast majority of women do not hate themselves for having an abortion. They did what they felt was best.
    1
  2191. So why does that fetus have to pay just because the woman was raped or slept with her family? You realize how hypocritical that sounds?
    1
  2192.  @pewdiepieskeet457  That still makes you a hypocrite.
    1
  2193. Contraception is not a right. Its a privilege. A privilege that many have no access to.
    1
  2194. Gaspect :D Not everyone even has access to condoms or birth control. And some can't take it. Forcing an unfit parent to "take responsibility" by having a child is extremely selfish. If you wanted to outlaw abortion, you'd have to outlaw all abortions, including for rape, life of the mother, and problems with the fetus. When you have children coming to you everyday talking about how they wish they had been aborted, you'd perhaps have another perspective.
    1
  2195. Umm no. It is forcing people to live by your beliefs. Anyone with any sense knows the fetus is a human being. Its not the same principle. Abortion is not murder. Thats not an opinion. To conflate it as such starts on a false pretense. The problem is pro-life views this as a moral issue. Pro-choice views it as a legal issue.
    1
  2196.  @dccomicsnew5263  Abortion not being murder is a fact. At least here in the states. We have established definitions for words.
    1
  2197. Libby Contrael Because a fetus is not a child. A fetus is a parasitic group of cells until it is able to biologically function on its own. Life isn't fair. It's not murder. Murder is by definition unlawful. Fetuses at the time of most abortions have not developed a nervous system, therefore cannot feel pain.
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  2198. Aquarius Yurp So is stepping on an ant or spider, or eating a cheeseburger.
    1
  2199.  @jacobbracamonte8177  As of right now, no. We can only try to minimize it for now.
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  2200. @Ankh That doesn't help the problem of having to pay of the pre-natal care and dealing with the physical and mental effects that comes with 9 months of pregnancy, plus the potential of NOT being able to adopt the child out.
    1
  2201. @Ankh I'm so glad you've lived such a privileged life that you've never had to experince the horrible side of unfit parents. I'm not being sarcastic by the way. I'm truly happy you've never had to experince that. It's just given you a very foggy perspective about what cruelty is. You know what being cruel is? Being an unfit parent unable to care for your daughter and throwing her down stairs at the age of 9, leaving her with epileptic episodes and a broken spine for the rest of her life.
    1
  2202. @Ankh And you know something? That little girl would rather have been aborted then to now suffer crippling health problems because her parent couldn't care for her. If you really think death is the cruelest thing you can do to a person, you haven't lived in reality. And I don't mean that as an insult. You really haven't. Why is being selfish a bad thing? You do understand that if you cannot care for yourself, you cannot care for others right? And its because sometimes you can't put it up for adoption, nor do you have the capacity to raise it. You seem to just assume that because people get pregnant, they have the capacity to raise the child. That isn't reality
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  2203. Probably because there is no scientific stances on abortion that are pro-life. Science does not support pro-life or pro-choice, because it is a neutral standing. You can argue scientific facts that support YOUR SPECIFIC decision to be either pro-life or pro-choice.
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  2204. Oh please. Stop making abortion that simple. Its not. Its not even a moral issue.
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  2205.  @trudypenner1986  Well first off, abortion isn't murder. That's a fact, not an opinion. At least here in the States. secondly, regardless of where you stand, everyone knows abortion is bad. Everyone wishes abortion didn't happen. Some evils are lesser than others. Abortion is a legal and rights issue. Not a moral one. I can grant you abortion is immoral and still make a case that setting a child up for failure is more immoral.
    1
  2206.  @trudypenner1986  I never said it wasn't a life. By the way, double homicide is dependent on how far along the mother is
    1
  2207.  Lizzie Allen  Depends on the state. There is no federal law mandating abortion, but you can be charged at a state level with unlawful termination of pregnancy. By the way, you and I can both agree there should be a cut off barring medical issues.
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  2208. You are pro-choice.
    1
  2209. Rudy Ramos-Lozano Nobody who isn't religious, or at least spiritually inclined, believe in a soul. That has not been proven. I refuse to believe in something without evidence. Air and gravity are observable and testable things. No, souls and incarnation is a belief. It is not a fact. You are not capable of feeling anything until you develop a brainstem.
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  2210. A non sentient fetus cannot give consent. Not every woman regrets having an abortion. They regret that they had to make that choice, even if it was the best decision.
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  2211.  @arooba6983  Because it has no brainstem. Is it living? Yes. Is it sentient? Not until a certain point. You only have feelings if you have a brain and brainstem to comprehend feelings.
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  2212.  @orangeorangeorange5075  You could make that argument, but that depends on how you define life. If you're arguing from a scientific, biological perspective? Yes. I agree. This is a moral argument though. And thats not so cut and dry.
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  2213.  @arbretree5463  When it is sentient.
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  2214. Australia Smith You're comment isn't old. I was just asking to see if you were a hypocrite or not. But I guess everyone is at some point.
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  2215. Australia Smith I wasn't offended. You seem very defensive. The purpose of a debate is to change those who haven't formed an opinion sway to one side. I have no problem with your opinion, I just was curious if you were hypocritical or not. But then again I suppose everyone is hypocritical of something. Never did I bash you.
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  2216. Australia Smith It wasn't leading to anything. I was simply curious about your stances on other things that fall under "pro-life". I don't really care whether you're pro life or pro choice.
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  2217. Australia Smith I responded because that's what I like to do. I like to get differing opinions on subjects. I'm not defensive. Everyone is hypocritical on something. There's not necessarily anything wrong with that. No where did I bash you. I'm sorry that you're sensitive and reading too much into something.
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  2218. Australia Smith Why did it lead to an issue? What's wrong with responding to You? I wanted specifically your opinion. That is why I respond to specific people. Generally, people who are pro-life say you have to be a vegan and oppose the death penalty in order to qualify for that title. That's why I posed the question. It was never meant as an attack on you, and I apologize if you took it as one. Again, where did I bash you? Nothing i said was to make you feel like you were wrong. An opinion can't be wrong because everyone's sense of morality is different. I was curious if you were hypocritical about being "pro-life". How is that negative? So what if you are? In the end, that was your opinion.
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  2219.  @cesarsavan2494  I am well aware that anytime you choose to have sex, you are making a big choice. However, consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. Any excuse you feel is justified is fine. The woman is the one making the decision, and publicly shaming people for decisions they thought were right doesn't help your cause. Having sex before marriage is a good thing, in my opinion. Sex is a very important part of a relationship for some, and you need to know if your sexually compatible before making the commitment of marriage. The human body naturally wants sex, but its more than used for baby making. A lot of what you said is simply personal opinion.
    1
  2220.  @cesarsavan2494  Actually, it does. The definition of pro-life is being against abortion and euthanasia. People like to take that definition and twist it to suit them. You only assume that.
    1
  2221.  @cesarsavan2494  No, its not. And you can try to justify that all you want
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  2222. Unintelligent Individual That is what is so wonderful about something called "subjective morality"
    1
  2223. Unintelligent Individual No point. Just saying it's nice that we all have different viewpoints on a topic.
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  2224. Unintelligent Individual I've talked to you before, though I went by a different name. I'm pro-choice, because I have seen first hand the consquences of forcing and unfit mother to give birth. However, I think you should try and take all precautions before hand and explore all avenues before choosing to have an abortion. I would one day like to see an end to abortion.
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  2225.  Lizzie Allen  You would think by now, you'd at least understand the definition of murder.
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  2226. Yes you can. Especially considering the Bible condones abortion
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  2227. People who want to see children be neglected and abused are monsters.
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  2228. Because the fetus is incapable of making a choice, since it isnt sentient.
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  2229. No, most pro-choicers understand that life begins at conception. The argument, however, isn't life. Its about the senteince of the fetus and the rights of the mother.
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  2230.  @mathildeyoung1823  At a base level, we are clumps of cells, but I understand what you mean. However, those people are uneducated. I don't know many who say it isn't alive. Though I know they exist. As for denying humanity, well that kind of depends on your definition. Is it human in the literal sense? Absolutely. Is it human in a colloquial sense? Not really. I don't find need to justify killing a non-sentient fetus. Sorry, I just don't think its wrong.
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  2231.  @codnoob1152  Because it's none of anyone's business what a person does with their body when a fetus isnt sentient.
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  2232. You are objectively wrong, at least in the states. Murder is a legal term.
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  2233. If you are pro-life, then you are trying to restrict rights and freedoms. To both pregnant people and the dying. Period.
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  2234.  @marz8379  Because the definition of pro-life sees to outlaw euthanasia and abortion entirely.
    1
  2235. @Account 1 Because he is trying to restrict rights of women.
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  2236. Abortion is not murder. I doubt you were a rape survivor as you lack the understanding of what murder is and the difference between jail and prison. Rape is a felony charge. A fetus isnt a baby. Take a biology class.
    1
  2237.  @parthenon5106  Pro-life people try to force an unfit mother to birth a child she cannot care for. "No one forces you to have sex and get pregnant" So...rape just isn't a thing? 1% is still 1%. How about getting perspective about the future for the unborn instead of hust focusing on the fact that they're alive?
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  2238.  @person7340  Yes they can, and all definitions of the word "murder" contain the word "unlawful".
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  2239. Life is not the issue. And it is also not separate. It depends on the mother for survival on a biological level. It DOESN'T have different DNA unless it has a mutation. Your DNA is half your mothers and half your fathers. Your blood type also depends on your parents. Differences in personality requires a brain/brainstem. Something that happens after the time of most abortions
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  2240. @He loves you! Since you conflate abortion with infanticide, yeah. You are.
    1
  2241. No one is pro abortion, but I am certainly pro choice and would love to talk with you.
    1
  2242.  @ourblessedtribe9284  Sure. I don't have your e-mail address, nor did I recieve a private message from you.
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  2243. Please stay in school. God knows you need it. By the way, no one has a right to anything. You only have rights because the government says you do.
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  2244. Sometimes, I really wonder if people who don't support abortion know there are 44,000 children under 18 waiting to be adopted and 15% of them will either commit suicide or end up in prison because they'll be kicked out at 18 with nothing, having never been adopted.
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  2245.  @adrianl2489  Thats not something they may want. Just as you have a problem with a woman choosing death for the fetus, they don't make the choice to live either. And many people would have rather been aborted thank live in a life of suffering
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  2246. You know what baffles me? Pro life hypocrites who dont give a damn about life unless its human and who can't be bothered to look up the definition of "murder". Also, people who dont understand the biological difference between a "child" and a "fetus".
    1
  2247.  @codnoob1152  Oh. You're back. We're not fake for supporting people's right to choose. Weak and deceitful? Because we believe in quality of life? Get the fuck over yourself. You're pro life until someone you love wants to have an abortion. Then it's just fine
    1
  2248.  @codnoob1152  You are so far gone into your religious bullshit that I can't even be bothered with you. Get over the fact that abortion will always be a thing until you step up to treat the causes. I wonder, since your so pro life, if you would pay for a child for 18 years that wasn't yours just so the mother wouldn't have an abortion. I doubt it. I doubt youd adopt it to.
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  2249. Pro-life, by definition, is against abortion in any circumstance. People like to change that definition because they don't want to be called vile for forcing a rape victim to carry, or a medical patient to suffer.
    1
  2250.  @CS_Lewis  That made no sense.
    1
  2251. So better to never feel that than to be abused and unloved when you can huh?
    1
  2252. E M #Afetusisnotababy
    1
  2253. E M Okay. 1. A fetus is not a baby. Neither medically or scientifically. 2. Yes there is a heartbeat after a certain period of time. Most abortions take place before that. 3. Murder is by definition unlawful. Since abortion is not unlawful, it is not murder. Morality is a subjective concept. Your morals are different than others.
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  2254. E M Oh I know you weren't being serious. I just have nothing better to do at the moment lol
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  2255. @Bodhi That's what everyone gets told
    1
  2256. Good thing no one has proven heaven even exists. Also good thing abortion isnt murder. Did you skip the part in the Bible where it supports abortion? Or are you one of the "old testament doesn't count anymore" people?
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  2257. Egg Head Yeah actually. I would have rather been aborted then deal with what I had to in life. But I'm here, so I have to deal. Actually in is unhealthy if you have those urges and refuse to act upon them. Why do you think celibate priests touch children? Because they aren't allowed to have natural relations. Sex isn't just to procreate. It's pleasurable for the body.
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  2258. Egg Head No, I haven't committed suicide because it's illegal and I'm a coward, not because I want to live. As of right now, I don't care if I live or die, but I make my life the best possible with the hand I work with.
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  2259. Egg Head I think it's wrong that all you care about is that the child is born and you don't give a shit into the situation they are born into. I find that sad.
    1
  2260. Egg Head And what about the chance you are never adopted? Guess what happens then? You're on the streets at 18 with nothing. Adoption agencies have terrible problems. You may one day feel different if you ever have to live on the streets
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  2261. Egg Head You may also be killing rapists, serial killers and abusers. That's not an argument. You can claim it's for inconvience, but I have yet to meet a woman who just jumped to abortion. That doesn't happen. Realizing you are stable enough to handle a child and cannot provide for it, and choosing to abort is responsible.
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  2262. Egg Head There are many people who say everyday that they wish they had been aborted. I know many people on the streets who either commit suicide or end up in prison. You may never recover. Up until a certain point, a fetus doesn't care what happens to it. You can't miss something you never had
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  2263. Egg Head Because a homeless person is sentient. A fetus is not.
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  2264. Egg Head I tend to leave that up to the person. This is why I strongly believe in living wills. But yeah. I have no issue with taking someone off of life support who's in a coma.
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  2265. Egg Head No. I believe once a fetus has sentience, it should be protected. As a base level, everything is a clump of cells.
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  2266. Egg Head In my opinion, it should be illegal when that fetus is sentient.
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  2267. Egg Head No you can't. Not at the time most abortions take place. A majority take place between 6 and 9 weeks. A fetus is incapable of crying or feeling pain because it lacks a brainstem. I think when the brainstem develops (between 14-15 weeks) that should be the absolute cut off point.
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  2268. Egg Head Its not about life. It's about sentience. No, I'm not Catholic. I'm an atheist. I knoe many woman who have regretted their decision to abort. I know many others who don't. I care more about the quality of life a child is born into than them being born period. If you're really pro life, that's what you should care about. I support a woman's right to have an abortion if she does not feel fit.
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  2269. Egg Head The child isn't capable of knowing what rights are you idiot. It has no brainstem. That is what I am saying. Until a certain point, it is part of the mother entirely. That is when it should be protected.
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  2270. And there are plenty of children in the adoption system waiting for them. By the way, most abortions are performed before 12 weeks.
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  2271.  @nataliaburnsed4322  Then I think you're a disgusting individual who would sit back and watch other children suffer because they don't meet your criteria.
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  2272. Sure. What would you like to know?
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  2273.  @shirleyperez9473  I know life begins at conception, based on the established definition of life. However, sentience is what supersedes life in my opinion.
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  2274. Why? Because abortion isn't murder. And its a constitutional right. You don't get to live at someone else's expense, because your rights are equal.
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  2275.  @cherb008  For the simple reason that its not unlawful. I'm different from a fetus in that I am a sentient being. I believe a fetus is human from conception if conceived by humans. Because you have a constitutional right to bodily autonomy. I don't get access to your body because you have things I need to survive. I've never understood the "abortion is convenient" arguement. Its not. Your right to life is not above another's right to liberty.
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  2276.  @cherb008  When the brainstem forms. Usually between 10 and 12 weeks.
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  2277.  @cherb008  Only for medical purposes. I had to have a a late term abortion because of a medical emergency. I don't think abortions should be performed after the first trimester barring that.
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  2278. Yeah that was. Technically I still am a clump of cells. And?
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  2279.  @lelisu3101  Thats because unlike a fetus, I have a developed brain.
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  2280.  @lelisu3101  No, not at all. I know life begins at conception and I know fetuses are human.
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  2281. The Bible is against contraception, so all Christians should be against it. But they pick and choose what verses to follow. You know. Like ripping the unborn out of women.
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  2282.  @blaecccuebbler7711  Way to strawman the argument. A blind person and someone's wife is a sentient being with rights. A fetus is not.
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  2283.  @blaecccuebbler7711  Being unconscious does not mean you aren't sentient moron. Insentient is also not a word. The argument isn't over whether or not its human. The argument is over whether or not its a person. Take a biology class.
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  2284.  @blaecccuebbler7711  No one is intrinsically valuable. Value is a word that only has meaning to the person describing it. Its not prescriptive. Its descriptive. Again, the difference between a black person at a fetus was one WAS a person, recognized or not. One is SENTIENT. The other is NOT a person NOR sentient, legally or otherwise, until a certain point in time.
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  2285.  @blaecccuebbler7711  I don't really care how it reflects on me, because I grow tired of telling you the same thing over and over. Its not an insult. Its the truth. If you act like a moron, that is what you will be called. As a medical school student, no. Unconsciousness does NOT make a person not sentient. A person is sentient as long as they have a functioning brain/brainstem, regardless of their state of consciousness. Personhood: the state or fact of being an individual or having human characteristics and feelings. A fetus does not meet this criteria at the time of most abortions. They are "human" in the sense that they are of the species homo sapiens. But they are not people. No, no it didn't. Its simply a fact. What led to those atrocities is people putting NO value on certain individuals. I don't need intrinsic value to still see the value of someone.
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  2286.  @cass-bd5jr  No its not and I'm sorry you failed biology.
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  2287.  @cass-bd5jr  That is not at all what I am saying. A fetus is biologically attached and dependent on her for its growth. Abortion should be off the table when sentience is achieved. By the way, the cardiovascular system doesn't finish developing until about 16 weeks.
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  2288.  @cass-bd5jr  The brain is not the issue. The brainstem is what controls automatic bodily functions. You can live without a brain. No, that doesn't make them less human and thats not the point. Also no. While a 2 year old may be dependent on an adult, a fetus BIOLOGICALLY depends on its mother for its survival. If removed from its mother before a period of growth, it will die. 4 months is way past sentience. I believe that abortion should be off the table after the first trimester.
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  2289.  @cass-bd5jr  When did I say a fetus wasn't human? It is, but thats not the point. Humans are not on some pedestal to me. Senteince is simply the ability to think and feel subjectively. Anyone or anything with a brainstem has sentience. They just may not be able to show it as we do. A fetus cannot recongnize its mothers voice without a brainstem to register it. Your statements have nothing to do with what I said. I care about sentience. I said biologically dependent. Not attached. As in "needs its host to survive on a biological level" A fully developed fetus is no longer dependant on the mother in this way.
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  2290.  @cass-bd5jr  You don't have to agree with me. Yes, a fetus is humsn. I don't think aborting a fetus for legitimate reasons while it isn't sentient matters. I don't believe in inherent value and have seen the effects of forced births. I think there should be a cutoff point and I think it should be a last resort. But you will not save anyone by banning abortion.
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  2291.  @cass-bd5jr  Well the first reason doean't have anything to do with abortion. Even if I was against abortion, I still would be pro-choice. Because I'm not opposed to death with dignity or assisted suicide. Secondly, I don't measure life by sentience. I measure morality by sentience. The brainstem finishes devloping between 12 and 15 weeks, which is when sentience is achieved. A majority of abortions take place before this, usally between the 8th and 12th week. Thirdly, you and I agree here. But personally, I do not believe life (human or otherwise) has inherent value. You're not special just because your born. Fouth, again we agree. But although this number including rape and incest are rare, they occur. If you are pro-life however, you are against abortions even in this case. I am pro-choice because I am for autonomy, both in life and in death. On abortion specifically, I believe it should be a last resort. However, I think the life the child will have needs to be considered. A physically, emotionally or financially unstable mother will mot provide a functional life for her child. And this can sometimes have devastating consequences.
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  2292. John Carter Citation needed that a parasitic group of cells is a human being.
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  2293. Most pro-choicers would agree that after a certain period of time, abortion should no longer be an option. The difference is sentience. It is not irresponsible to abort after all other options have been considered and ruled out. Life also doesn't bend to your opinion.
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  2294. Which is hilarious since the Bible is not pro-life.
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  2295.  @seoksville4774  God, in your view, made man. So no. God did make slavery. And if he is omniscient (i.e. all powerful) then he had the ability to stop people from taking slaves. But instead, he told people how to beat them and how it waa their right to own them. I'm sorry, but your mental gymnastics don't work.
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  2296.  @seoksville4774  So he's not all-knowing then. I love when people deliberately make their God weak. Either he can't stop it or he won't. Neither of these are good options. He's the villain in this. And the fact that you try to justify it is, to me, frankly laughable. This is what people mean when they say that reading the Bible makes them an atheist.
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  2297.  @seoksville4774  If he is all knowing, then free will does not exist. You cannot have it both ways. But this point is moot, as I do not believe in God.
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  2298. The can't tell you how they feel because they lack a brainstem to comprehend thought. Abortion will never be illegal.
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  2299.  @travisjohnson7065  The problem being is you can't prove abortion is objectively wrong. In fact, you can't show that killing in any capacity is wrong. You can only apply that to whatever subjective moral framework you have.
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  2300.  @davidhernandez-sr9hg  Its also true. Sorry, but objective morality doesn't exist. We just expect as humans to have an empathetic view of the collective, as well as the self.
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  2301.  @travisjohnson7065  No, morality just is subjective. I would say its subjective if someone harmed me. I would only say its objective based on my moral framework. I would want justice on the grounds that my right was violated, which is objective. Not the grounds that what they did to me is wrong. You could come steal everything I own, and maybe to you, that wouldn't be wrong. But because my subjective moral framework is different, I would absolutely have the right to complain. Because you objectively violated my subjective morality. You don't seem to understand that objectivity can work inside subjectivity.
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  2302.  @davidhernandez-sr9hg  Because absolute right and wrong don't exist. I am well aware humans are social creatures. That is why I'm a secular humanist. I don't harm others because I don't want that harm done to me. That is my subjective moral framework. Actions done then become objective based on that moral framework. The framework itself, however, is still subjective.
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  2303.  @travisjohnson7065  Rights are only objective to the context of the government in power. They are not absolutely objective. As stated, moral actions can be objective to a subjective moral framework. The only ones that care will be the ones who share that same subjective morality. Someone with a different subjective morality is not going to care. It does have foundation. The foundation is it objectively violates my subjective morality. It doesn't have to be objective to have meaning. I don't believe in an afterlife. That doesn't mean life suddenly stops having meaning to me. I care. Anyone who shares my worldview cares. People are held accountable because most people share the same moral framework. We think murder is wrong because it violates someone's right to life and because we do not want to be murdered. But that is not a belief held by everyone, nor is there anyway to show that murder is objectively wrong. The very definition of objective means without emotion input. So what in the natural world tells you murder is wrong? How can you defend against the act of murder without bringing in emotions? You can't. It's not arbitrary, any more than your God's so called rules. A moral framework has an established set of these rules. Violations to them are objective. The framework itself is subjective. Sorry that we have differing opinions on morality, but it's really not that hard of a concept to grasp.
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  2304.  @davidhernandez-sr9hg  If you're referring to pro-life or pro-choice, I side with pro-choice.
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  2305. So did that cow you had for dinner. Whats your point?
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  2306.  @parthenon5106  Why? We're animals as well. We're both sentient. Its your subjective opinion that humans are worth more.
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  2307. Kaylee Foyer If you're telling me you're waiting until you're over 3 months before finding out you're pregnant, that's amazing. The fetus' heart doesn't beat separately from the mother until between 12-13 weeks.
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  2308.  @travisjohnson7065  You do know you can be pro-choice and anti-abortion...right?
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  2309.  @azraeleditz4273  It also doesn't guarantee it will find happiness. And statistically, a child who is abused and neglected is much less likely to find happiness than a child that isn't
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  2310.  @azraeleditz4273  I do have that right. Whether or not you agree is irrelevant.
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  2311.  @azraeleditz4273  There is no such thing as basic human rights. You have no inherent rights. You only have rights because a government says you do. Regardless of if its permanent or not, it is a part of me. A parasite on me until it gains sentience. So it is my choice what is done with it. Morality is subjective. I think its immoral to force an unfit mother to give birth to a child she may abuse and neglect. Unlike you, I care more that a child has a quality of life than that it's just born.
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  2312.  @azraeleditz4273  Its not about inconvenience. It's about understanding that you are physically and mentally incapable of giving a child the life it needs. I'm all for abortion being a last resort. I find you, someone who is perfectly content to watch a child suffer at the hands of its parents, cold hearted. And so what if its human? Humans are not on some magical pedestal. Many more children who have tough and abusive childhoods grow up to be unsuccessful, mentally unstable, suicidal, and criminals. Sorry, that's just a statistical probability. You a vegan? If not, since when do you care about life?
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  2313.  @kenudice9841  Hey guess what? Life's not fair and rarely will people do what's in the best interest of others if it harms themselves.
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  2314.  @kenudice9841  Abortions are 100% safe when performed correctly. There would be no damage to the uterus. That has been continuously debunked. Whether or not someone has remorse is out of your control.
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  2315. No, its terminating the devlopment of an (often) non-sentient fetus. Sentience should be what matters. Not life.
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  2316.  @Henry14141  So what? Who cares that its a human fetus? Yes. They have the potential to grow into a person. So?
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  2317.  @bosnia7429  Yes it is. So was that hamburger you ate. Why does life matter?
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  2318.  @bosnia7429  Once again you are comparing a non-sentient fetus to sentient humans. Meat does not have to be food. We eat it because we like it. Abortion is not murder.
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  2319. Jesse Collins Except adoption agencies turn children away and are broken as hell. Some people can't use birth control. Your not killing a kid. Your killing a fetus not yet capable of anything because you cannot take care of it.
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  2320. Having an abortion is not evil. Forcing an opinion on someone else is evil.
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  2321.  @parthenon5106  No one has to force their opinions on anyone. See where the other is coming from, agree to disagree, and move on.
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  2322.  M  And I'll say that you haven't read the Bible, because this law applied to all people. And if we're speaking on abortion, why would you be pro-life? Neither God nor your Bible is pro-life.
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  2323.  @ethanm.2411  The NT in Mark begs to differ. Supposedly the words of Jesus himself even states that the NT does not free you from the OT. God actively commands and commits abortion in the Bible on the Israelites, Samarians and the Babylonians.
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  2324.  @ethanm.2411  Mark 5:17. As for abortion: A pregnant woman who is injured and aborts the fetus warrants financial compensation only (to her husband), suggesting that the fetus is property, not a person (Exodus 21:22-25). • The gruesome priestly purity test to which a wife accused of adultery must submit will cause her to abort the fetus if she is guilty, indicating that the fetus does not possess a right to life (Numbers 5:11-31). • God enumerated his punishments for disobedience, including "cursed shall be the fruit of your womb" and "you will eat the fruit of your womb," directly contradicting sanctity-of-life claims (Deuteronomy 28:18,53). • Elisha's prophecy for soon-to-be King Hazael said he would attack the Israelites, burn their cities, crush the heads of their babies and rip open their pregnant women (2 Kings 8:12). • King Menahem of Israel destroyed Tiphsah (also called Tappuah) and the surrounding towns, killing all residents and ripping open pregnant women with the sword (2 Kings 15:16). • Isaiah prophesied doom for Babylon, including the murder of unborn children: "They will have no pity on the fruit of the womb" (Isaiah 13:18). • For worshiping idols, God declared that not one of his people would live, not a man, woman or child (not even babies in arms), again confuting assertions about the sanctity of life (Jeremiah 44:7-8). • God will punish the Israelites by destroying their unborn children, who will die at birth, or perish in the womb, or never even be conceived (Hosea 9:10-16). • For rebelling against God, Samaria's people will be killed, their babies will be dashed to death against the ground, and their pregnant women will be ripped open with a sword (Hosea 13:16). • Jesus did not express any special concern for unborn children during the anticipated end times: "Woe to pregnant women and those who are nursing" (Matthew 24:19).
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  2325. topgun213 I know many women who ultimately felt that they did the right thing to abort at that time. One of those women picked herself back up and now has 3 wonderful children. Yes, she still misses the fetus she aborted, but has no psychological issues from it. An anecdote is not a fact and does not apply to everyone
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  2326. topgun213 Lol, which is not a fact. A fetus isn't a baby for staters, and abortion isn't murder. So there goes your argument. I'm sorry that you can't grasp the reasons why a woman would choose to have an abortion. You should never argue from morality. Morality is subjective. The fetus doesn't care if you abort it. You're right. The government also uses my tax dollars to fun executions, which I don't agree with. That's just something that happens. Abortion is not murder. It is not your place to decide who gets life, especially when you work with kids who do not want life and who wish they had been aborted.
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  2327. topgun213 Morality is subjective. There is no such thing as objective morality because by definition, objective morality is universal. There is no natural law that morality follows. You will always find people that take no issue with murder or rape. There is no inherent good or inherent evil. Only what you perceive as good and evil. I'm not judgemental. You are welcome to your opinions. I just disagree with them. Morality is anecdotal on all levels. The realitve morality of abortion in the US is that it's moral, because it is legal. I can only tell you what is right and wrong based on my beliefs and principals and based on the law. I never said a fetus isn't alive. It is. But it is not sentient at the time of most abortions. It does not care if you abort it until a certain period. Apparently you don't grasp it, because you think it's because it's inconvient. If the woman thought that her fetus was inconvient, then it wouldn't be such a hard decision. I don't know a single woman who has had an abortion that didn't want to keep her fetus. But she knew it would have no quality of life. That's what ultimately should matter.
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  2328. topgun213 I can tell you exactly what kind of argument I would have made. That in my subjective moral opinion, a sentient human being should be beholden to no one but themselves. Culture may influence what a certain group sees as right and wrong, but that doesn't mean I agree with it. I don't agree with a lot of things that my "culture" says is wrong. Slavery is not objectively wrong, because not everyone agrees that slavery is wrong. Objective means universal. Meaning everyone. What natural law tells us that slavery is wrong? None. Only your own moral code that you have formed tells you it's wrong. Yes, you are sentient when you sleep. Coma depends on how badly the brain is damaged. No, fetuses are sentient when they develop a brainstem. That's not an opinion. That's just a fact. Whether or not you believe it is right to kill a fetus before this point in time is your own subjective moral compass. Once again. You lack the understanding of the word murder. Abortion is not murder. Get over it. I personally wouldn't care. I was a failed abortion. I hold no resentment towards my mother. There are still times I wish I had been aborted. But I wasn't, so I continue living my life and letting others live theirs. It is not your place to dictate someone's choice in my subjective opinion.
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  2329. Then go ahead and try. Because while science is neutral on moral issues, I could use science to explain pro-choice.
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  2330. Shawn Taylor That would make you a hypocrite. You're either pro-life in all cases, or you aren't pro-life. I think it's morally bankrupt to force a child to be born in a knowingly unhealthy and unstable situation, because it will be neglected and abused.
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  2331. Shawn Taylor I understand that, however, that does not fit the definiton of "pro-life" which is someone who thinks abortion an euthanasia should exist period. I think having an abortion regardless of how it came into being is a responsible choice. You people prance around spouting about only getting an abortion because of convience, but it's not about that at all. The adoption system is fundamentally broken. Hell, adoption agencies have been turning children away in the last few years because they are overcrowded and underfunded. There's no guarantee that child will ever be adopted out. I think adoption should be explored, but with the way the system is right now, I support the right to abort
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  2332. Abortion is not murder. That is not an opinion. That is a fact. The fetus may never grow up at all. Stop pretending like you can predict the future. Sure, they could still grow up to be wonderful people. But that is statistically not reality. Giving a child up for adoption doesn't guarantee anything. That child may never be adopted. What do you think happens then? No one should have to bend to the whims of others. Period.
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  2333.  @emmaclairewynn  But what if it doesn't? You make the same argument I do, just flipped around. That could also be ending the next Ted Bundy. "The at least they weren't killed" Do you honestly think death is worse than being thrown out on the streets with nothing? Because I know a majority of people who would disagree with you. You dont have a right to anything. Your rights only apply because a government says they do. You are not entitled. Also no. It's not a fact. You apparently dont know what the definition of murder is.
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  2334. Your comment is a false pretense. You have the right to control what goes on inside you, and the fact that you try an use emotional manipulation to guilt someone is vile. Also, guess what? Did you know you can be pro-choice and anti-abortion? I doubt it.
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  2335.  @vaguepepper4028  Depends on what that person wanted. I have absolutely no issue with ending the life of a comatose patient who, if ever even awakes, will have no quality of life. That's why I believe in having a will, even when you're young. That being said, a person in a comatose IS sentient. So your comparison is invalid.
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  2336.  @ebonie4002  A parasite is any organism that negatively impacts the host and depends on said host for survival. There is literally a birth defect called parasitic twinning. Just because people don't like to call fetuses parasites doesn't mean they aren't one.
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  2337.  @ebonie4002  A fetus does not increase fitness. Neo natal care is extremely important or else you, as the mother, would die as would the developing fetus. Considering I have a degree in biology, I'm pretty sure I didn't. As far as being classified as a parasite, that depends on who you ask.
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  2338.  @craigorji6687  you'll have to be way more consistent on which comments you're referring to.
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  2339. John Brewer Except it's not murder because it doesn't fall into the definiton of murder. No one should argue a fetus isn't alive. Being alive isn't the issue. It's not sentient. I want to see an end to abortion. But I have perspective into why it happens.
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