Comments by "TombWraith" (@Tomb-Wraith) on "Is Abortion Murder? | Middle Ground" video.

  1.  @travisjohnson7065  It also isn't my fault the fetus cannot live outside of my uterus.
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  2.  @matt1325  Because coffee and increased intake of caffeine can cause a miscarriage. So should everyone who jas a miscarriage be investigated?
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  3. So here's the thing. You're story is sad, and I'm glad you were able to make it out okay. But when you phrase it like "pro abortionists feel it should be aborted" you invalidate every one of us who was not as lucky as you were. You may not regret your mother's decision, and you may be strong enough to get through. But not all of us are that lucky. My mother wasn't allowed to have an abortion and because of that, most of my childhood was destroyed by abuse and sexual assault. I cannot live a normal adult life because of the torture my mother put me through. Even though I'm alive, and have actually made what most would consider a decent life, it was not worthr the suffering. To claim that just because we support the RIGHT for the mother to choose to abort must mean we don't view life as valuable or worth something is actually quite ignorant. And its condescending to those of us who are worse off physically and mentally than you. You cannot miss something you never had. Had you been aborted, you would have lacked the capability to care.
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  4.  @kva5751  Oh hey look. Its the no true scotsman fallacy. Tell me...did you read the Bible? Because its very much pro-choice.
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  5. Because the context clearly shows that she "loves abortions" as "I love having access to the medical procedure if I so choose." Not the act itself.
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  6. Well then you aren't pro-life. Pro-life is against abortion regardless of circumstance
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  7.  @casey_and_point  I'm not saying you do not have trauma. My point was is your first comment is condescending to people towards me, who was permanently disabled by an abusive mother. My life is different to yours, and to portray this issue as a black and white issue is disrespectful
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  8. Its very clear you just completely cut out all the context. She clearly meant she loves the fact that she lives in a place that gives her access to a medical procedure without risk or fear of being judged by those performing it.
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  9.  @celestialseasonings4160  Because if doctors can't do it, a woman will turn to aborting it herself. You can literally force the body to miscarry. Then where will you be? You will inevitably have to jail woman who miscarried naturally.
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  10. Allowing someone the choice over what to do is the "moral high ground" over forcing your belief onto another.
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  11.  @travisjohnson7065  If it wasn't an option they wanted, then it wasn't an option at all.
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  12.  @casey_and_point  No, I definitely wish my mother had aborted me. I definitely don't believe the struggles I have are worth life. And many others feel the same.
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  13.  @travisjohnson7065  That's not comparable. I wasn't talking about a physical option. I was talking about an individual option. At 38, they would have been a high risk pregnancy. We have no idea why they aborted, so to say there was an option isn't true.
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  14. Because it is. Its the right to liberty.
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  15. Imagine not knowing what murder means.
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  16.  @jenamiahhjunee1153  Death is better than suffering.
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  17. No, I doubt it. There is a very clear and distinct difference between a sentient seperate human and a non-sentient zygote/fetus reliant of the body of another for development. Abortion will always be around.
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  18.  @travisjohnson7065  You continue to use the same tired argument, but here. I'll grant you the benefit of the doubt and say its not her body (even though it is). Its her property. A non-viable fetus is no different than chattle. You actually make it sound like a fetus has a complete babyesque form when its aborted and it just doesn't. It has no functioning brain, any developed organ systems, nothing. Your morality is subjective. Stop with the morally superior complex. Your viewpoint provably also damages and kills humans. Just when they can feel.
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  19. If adoption is so important, why do 45,000 children sit in foster care and adoption centers? Some since extremely young? Why has the adoption rate for even babies dropped so much? Are you vegan? What about the animals that are slaughtered when they are far more sentient than fetuses? What about tumors? They are living and dividing cells with seperate DNA. You have a lot of privilege. Just because we are alive doesn't mean we want to be.
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  20. Then by definition, you aren't pro-life. Pro-life is against abortion in any circumstance. That's the literal definition.
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  21.  @travisjohnson7065  You don't know the situation, so to call it an option is flat out wrong. Their doctor may have told her to abort. The pregnancy could have been ectopic. We don't know. Those over 35 are at higher risks of complications.
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  22.  @that_single_mama  An ectopic pregnancy is a pregnancy that happens outside the uterus. Guess what? It can still develop. It will just never make it to term. But you still have to have an abortion to remove it, because waiting for the fetus to die on its own could result in serious medical complications. Talk to OBGYN's about ectopic abortions. They are still referred to as abortions.
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  23.  @that_single_mama  That is still a medical necessity for abortion. You also haven't adressed any of the other statements listed.
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  24. Fetuses don't have rights and even if they did (and I would even agree should), they'd be equal. You don't get the right to use someone else, even if you need them to live.
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  25. Abortion is taking responsibility. Its recognizing you are too immature to handle being pregnant. Most people enjoy sex. Human life isn't special unless you consider it to be. Quality of life should always be a consideration. I don't understand why this is such an issue for some people, and I don't think I ever will.
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  26. Abortion isn't murder and how the fuck is it the victims fault they were raped? That's disgusting, whether you're pro-life or pro-choice
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  27. I fail to see how this topic applies to murder.
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  28. Honest answer: No.
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  29. Yeah okay. Tell that to anyone who has ever had an ectopic pregnancy.
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  30. The amount of dishonest liars that twist the definitions of words in order to suit an opinion they hold is wild.
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  31. @Elias Rivera Keep pretending you care.
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  32. @Elias Rivera Which is why I stated "usually". They aren't different topics. They all play a role in a person's decision to abort. Seems as though you don't want to delve deeper into it, and I suspect that's because you have less then popular beliefs. There is nothing to debate about abortion. You have a right to bodily autonomy. End of story.
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  33. @Elias Rivera I love how you hyperfixiate on just that sentence and ignore everything else. But that's typical of pro-life people.
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  34. Imagine still being ignorant enough to not understand that condoms and birth control don't always work.
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  35. So are you vegan? Is that murder? That animal you slaughtered has a heartbeat that is actually controlled itself.
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  36. Abortiond are in fact cheaper than 18+ years of financial strain. We can only hope that people learn to be responsible.
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  37.  @arthurz3808  Well no. In terms of fact.
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  38.  @arthurz3808  No, its actually fact. Murder has a definition that abortion does not fit.
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  39. Babies and fetuses are different. Can we work on giving them quality of life?
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  40. Guess what? I know 3 women who took the pill as prescribed and still became pregnant. Human error occurs. Condoms are also only about 80% effective because of human error. Perhaps comprehensive sex ed would actually lower abortion rates as well, but the same people who want an end to abortions typically do not want sex ed taught in schoolsm
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  41. And once again, we find someone who clearly took her words out of context. She is describing the abortion procedure that way because she is happy she lives in a country where she has access to said procedure. The healthcare option is glorified. Not the procedure itself.
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  42.  @AkonFenty1992  Murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. 2 problems. 1) Abortion is not unlawful and 2) Fetuses are not considered human under the law, even if they are from a scientific perspective. If you're going to be dishonest, at least lie about something not easily debunked.
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  43. Don't you people get tired of using inflammatory lies to spread a narrative...?
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  44.  @matt1325  Yes, but that is a strawman arguement. You are comparing a person who has been born to a non-sentient fetus. The two aren't comparable.
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  45.  @Ladybugs2225  And apparently, you don't have to be honest and admit that child murder is not comparable to abortion.
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  46. That is the biggest projection I have ever seen.
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  47. She was clearly talking about she loves the procedure being available. Not the process itself.
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  48. Funny how they can use protection, and still get pregnant.
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  49. Have you ever heard of an ectopic pregnancy? Eclampsia? Birth defects that will end in death of the fetus? Uterine infections? Chemotherapy or immunosuppressive drugs?
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  50. As if abortion isn't a responsible decision.
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  51. Yes, defending the right to bodily autonomy is is nasty. Wonder if you would have that same opinion if a doctor dragged you into an OR and forcefully took your organs to keep someone you didn't know alive. Do you guys ever get tired of being manipulative liars?
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  52. Perhaps you can make that argument in this instance, but forcing someone else to be miserable for your moral satisfaction is also selfish. Being selfish is not a bad thing.
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  53. A) You only speak for yourself and B) You literally cannot know that. The only reason you can make that statement is because you have the hindsight of being alive. But the fact remains that you can't miss something you never had. If you never experienced life, death would mean nothing.
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  54. @Elias Rivera Oh you do? Yet it is people like you, usually, who want to end welfare, Don't want raised taxes to go to Healthcare, and advocate against comprehensive sex ed. You don't care about life. You end life everyday. Life with far more sentience than a fetus, who is incapable of feeling or thought. It is about women's rights. Rights you are trying to dismantle.
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  55. @Elias Rivera Except you didn't. In fact, you didn't say anything. Again, typical lying and manipulative pro-lifer.
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  56. No, no its not.
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  57. Its just not though.
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  58. And abortion isn't murder any more than the death penalty is.
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  59.  @EricaRose  You are clearly misinterpreting it, either willingly or ignorantly. That is what I meant. You personally are taking it out of context to have it mean something it doesn't. She isn't saying "i love abortions" because the procedure is amazing. She's saying "I love abortions" because she loves her ability to have them, something many places don't have.
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  60. As if saying a person should have to birth a child if they are subjected to unwanted incest or are raped is not disgusting?
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  61. At least acknowledge that you can't be bothered to do a 30 second google search to look up the definition of murder.
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  62. A pill is hardly a "grotesque procedure", which is how most abortions are performed. Using images of late term abortions (legally done exclusively for medical reasons) as a way to shock and scare people is disgusting and dishonest.
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  63. Fetuses do not have rights.
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  64. Congrats on your kid being one of the lucky ones. Some of us aren't so glad to have suffered. Abortion is not murder.
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  65. 1% is thousands of people. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.
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  66.  @JoeyB0b  Because they don't. The Bible is very much pro-choice.
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  67. No. The act of having sex and pregnancy are two different things. Consenting to one doesn't mean consent to the other. You can actually opt out of paying the fine. Its called an appeal. May not necessarily work, but it is an option available to you.
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  68. And so is abortion. You were just privileged enough to be born into a situation where a parent had the ability and wanted to raise you. Lucky you.
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  69.  @samhg3658  A parasite does not have to be a different species. We literally have a medical deformity called "parasitic twinning."
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  70.  @illegalalien3937  That is not the impression I get at all. I think people are just genuinely ignoring the context.
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  71. Then you're just factually wrong lol.
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  72. Considering over 50% of pregnancies end in miscarriage, I fail to see the argument for "almost inevitable life". Abortion isn't murder. Stop using a legal term to try to spin a moral narrative.
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  73. That's not an answer to unwanted pregnancy.
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  74. Yes. Consciousness and sentience. By your vague definition, anything living is a person.
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  75. Having sex before marriage actually isn't always a healthy idea, and it would be nice if guns weren't more and more restricted...
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  76. Lmao no it isn't in a vast majority of places. I can't get birth control without a prescription from a doctor.
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  77. I fail to see how standing for the choice in whether to be a mother or not fails to make sense. I do notice how pro-life arguments don't make sense and are hypocritical though.
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  78.  @sydneypayeur6405  Fetus is any unborn mammal. Value is something given to you by others. It is not inherent
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  79.  @tyler6971  No, its factually not. Murder has an established definition.
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  80.  @zachman5150  As if getting pregnant is a choice you actively make. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy anymore than driving is consent to an accident.
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  81. No, absolutely not. Of course his opinion should be heard and considered, but its her body that the fetus is using. Its ultimately up to her.
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  82. They physically can't be, because the definition of birth control prevents pregnancy from happening in the first place. Also please cite how often the same person goes back to get abortion after abortion. Its not cheap.
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  83.  @alexgiron9597  Keep lying or being deliberately ignorant. Lets others know you're untrustworthy and manipulative.
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  84. No, but bodily autonomy is.
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  85. If she values potential life over the wishes of the parent, which has been shown to lead to violence, abuse and death of sentient children, then she is a bad person.
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  86.  @blvck.8197  The fact that you call it child murder when a fetus is not even remotely compared to a child, nor is abortion murder.
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  87. No, its not.
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  88.  @aaronk3465  There is no such thing as "moral" murder. Murder is a legal term. Morality is also entirely subjective.
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  89. Then why does it die if you take it pit of me? Right. Because it's not its own body and depends on the environment I provide it to grow to a stage where it can survive outside me.
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  90.  @theneutralguy2317  If it is to save the life of the mother, then its better to save 1 than neither. Take into account the nuance
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  91. Having its own DNA is irrelevant. Tumors also have unique DNA to its host, and yet we get rid of them. Being a seperate organism absolutely is a belief, because it is biologically dependant on a uterus for growth and development. Seperate it from that uterus before development occurs, and it fails to exist. Some pro-choice people do deny science, such as that the fetus is alive and human. However, science has no basis on morality. I understand that the fetus is human and alive and am still pro-choice. I can also morally defend that position.
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  92.  @duketruong9358  When a fetus is a human? Or a human being? Because being begets personhood, which is defined by individual personality, something fetuses do not develop until long after most abortions. Your opinion means nothing. Fact is, its not murder. Fact is, there is a difference between being a human and being a person. Telling someone to not have sex does nothing. Most people want sex. And after pregnancy has occured, that argument is moot. I agree that people shouls try to avoid sex if able. The difference is the person drinking isn't having their rights violated, and the person they killed has those same rights. A fetus does not. A fetus is property. Its chattle. You may not agree with that, but legally, thats what it is.
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  93. Because its very clear by the context that she means that she loves the fact that she has the right to a medical procedure. She loves the idea of bodily autonomy. Not abortion itself.
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  94.  @vesselseternity3266  Oh yes I would. I'm one of millions of people who's life was ruined by unfit parents, and cannot live a normal life without incredible struggles. Oh, by the way, even if I didn't have that view? Still isn't murder. That's not an opinion.
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  95.  @ramboescobar3858  No one murders a baby during an abortion. Do you ever get tired of lying? Or did you just fail biology?
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  96. And no one is saying abortion is the only option.
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  97. As if a marriage or financial situation can't change in a matter of moments.
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  98. Widely available for who? As also stated on the previous video, plenty of places do not have widely available access to contraception. Also, nearly a third of pregnancies are conceived on birth control.
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  99. Youtube doesn't want to post links, but actually the majority of those that go through the adoption process are in fact Christian, but are Pro-choice. Out of 250 parents who completed the whole adoption process, nearly 70% identified as pro-choice. So no. Also, the majority of the country is pro-choice, so I have no idea why you would think that pro-life would be more likely to adopt when they make up far fewer percent of the population.
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  100. Its not. Most developed countries including the US, Canada, Russia, Japan, China, Australia and 95% of Europe. So...what developed countries are you talking about?
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  101.  @milluh  Do you not know what drawing a comparison means? If that logic seems sideways, its because your ignorant. I don't care what your opinion on capital punishment is. My point is that it isn't murder any more than abortion is. That'a not an opinion. A fetus isn't a person. Its property. No different than chattle. And when it is using a person's body, that person has to consent to it. Also, bull. There are plenty of instances where I bet you would find taking a person's life justified.
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  102. No, abortion is not murder. Keep trying to moral grandstand on a lie. Also, if a fetus is another body, why does it die if removed from the uterus? Oh right. Because its biologically dependant on someone else for survival, which it doesn't have the right to.
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  103. No. No its not.
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  104.  @EricaRose  Its literally not what she meant, and if you had any information on what the shoutmyabortion or iloveabortion movement was, you would know that. You're being incredibly ignorant, and there is no excuse for it.
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  105. No abortion is done out of convenience because it is never convenient to get an abortion. Why is financial status, mental health, phsyical health or immaturity nit valid reasons? Why do you want a child born to unfit parents? How is THAT beneficial for the child? By the way, abortion can't be used as birth control, because birth control by definition stops ovulation.
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  106. Please enlighten us on these people so they can be reported to the proper authorities. Unless you are once again conflating fetuses with babies.
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  107.  @travisjohnson7065  If you give someone an ultimatum, that is indeed a type of force. So no. It happens in spite of what the pregnant person desires. That is forced birth.
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  108. Kinda hard when there's no other argument for pro-life that can't be easily dismantled.
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  109. And...?
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  110. It was very clear that she was celebrating the idea of being allowed access to abortion, not the act itself.
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  111. And subjecting children to abuse and neglect is so much better
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  112.  @travisjohnson7065  Morality is always "personal" because it is subjective. It will always be subjective. Having a moral viewpoint doesn't make it factual or objective. Nope, that's just simply how it is. If you were born and raised in a different environment or in a different era, your entire moral code would be different. The difference is, a born child isn't dependent on the body of another person. A fetus is. A child won't die just because it is removed from its mother. A fetus will. How you conflate the two is ridiculous. Because it is at the expense of someone else? Cancer is still at the expense of a person. Would it be clearer to put it that way? A fetus doesn't get to live at the expense of the person it is parastizing unless that person consents to it using it. I don't have a right to your kidney. A fetus has no right to my uterus.
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  113. "In my opinion."
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  114.  @omega0195  No, its really not. Its a subjective opinion. I argue forced birth is wrong.
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  115. You only represent yourself. Others, like myself, can never overcome the damage done to us and wish we had been aborted.
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  116. People don't do that. At least a severely vast majority don't. Its not a free procedure.
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  117. Fun fact: No it isn't.
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  118. Okay. Then charge anyone who isn't a vegan with felony animal abuse. Your meat suffers a hell of a lot more than that non-sentient fetus
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  119. -Abortion being wrong is a personal opinion -You can be pro-choice and anti-abortion. -Most people don't like seeing dead things in general. Has nothing to do with with the fact that they were aborted. -No one thinks that.
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  120.  @Tayodope  You say that as if a) people don't get raped and b) as if abortion isn't taking responsibility. It is. Just like adoption and parenthood. You can say that because you were privileged. Some of us weren't so lucky as you. Life is only meaningful if you give it meaning.
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  121.  @Tayodope  Pro-lifers are the ones who want funding for foster homes, food stamps, Benefits and healthcare to stop. Those people don't want to fix the problem, because they have to spend more money. You aren't a "passionate voice". You're a privileged asshole who ignores those that have actually suffered for a "nope you have to have that baby" narrative. The fact that you DON'T talk about rape further soldifies that point, because it takes away any argument you have.
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  122.  @Tayodope  Huh...it's almost like the government depends on the money from its people in order to have these services, and people like you are the one's who refuse to pay for it. By the way, the government doesn't pay for abortions. That's federally illegal. Of course you do, because you don't know what its like. I'm insensitive and selfish? When you flat out insulted someone like me who was abused and destroyed at the hands of an unfit parent all because "life is most important?" If someone being alive is worth more than that person's suffering, you are the one who is insensitive and selfish. Says a lot when you need to like your own comments.
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  123. As a biologist, let me correct you on a few things. -Yes, usually by the 16 week mark, a fetus is capable of feeling pain. This is long after most abortions. Abortions are usually done before 10 weeks. -Absolutely false. A fetal heartbeat is nothing more than a bundle of neuron fibers controlled by the mother that will eventually become the infant's pacemaker. This heartbeat cannot even be heard. It can only SOMETIMES be seen on a sonagram. Organs have only started forming, and the brain has not even begun. It does however have the basic neural network needed to begin life outside. -No. A fetus does not have rights. You can argue that it should, but it legally doesn't. Because it is not a person. What if that child was a detriment to society? Thats a possibility as well. -Most people don't have long-term effects. Especially if this was a carefully thought out option. You're far more likely to suffer postpartum depression or psychosis. While I understand your conflict, its important to understand these things. I think teaching about safe sex and the effects of children could go a long way, but it helps no one to just fight.
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  124.  @travisjohnson7065  Reproduction is not a choice. It is an event that happens entirely independently of choice. Your brain doesn't actively control whether or not you get pregnant. So yes. People are forced into pregnancy.
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  125.  @travisjohnson7065  If it was a choice, then it would be a conscious decision by the brain and every sexual encounter would result in pregnancy. But that simply doesn't happen. Implantation of a fertilized egg acts entirely independently from the brain. You would only be being forced by those who are trying to criminalize your right to bodily autonomy. Over 50 percent of pregnancies end in miscarriage. Childbirth and pregnancy are the only examples of natural positive feedback loops we observe. And you should have the choice to experience that or not. Luckily, we live in a society that puts the rights of persons over property. Because that is what a fetus is. Chattle.
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  126.  Pedro Fernandes  Yes. It is not my problem that a fetus cannot live outside of me. It is up to me whether or not it continues to use my uterus for development.
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  127.  @samhg3658  I am well aware of what their definition says. I'm simply pointing out that it is incorrect. A parasite does not have to be another species for it to be classified biologically as a parasite. I don't classify fetuses as parasites, though I know people who do. My only point, a comment I also responded to the op with is simply that a parasite does not have to be another species.
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  128. Because the morning after pill isn't always accessible, available or works. Not everyone can be on birth control. Killing a fetus is an option because of bodily autonomy.
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  129.  @TheRedNacho  Considering that a fetus is not sentient and has no concept of belief, thats a strawman argument. It implies that a fetus would default to being born if it could vocalize, which is unfounded. So no. It doesn't really go both ways.
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  130. Damn people really still deliberately misunderstanding context? Typical.
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  131. Hypocritical.
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  132.  @jajeisi  If the fetus is "not her body" then there should be no issue with removing it. But wait. Then it dies. Because it is dependent on her womb for survival. That IS her body. The womb does not belong to the fetus. Intrinsic value does not exist. Without a mind to place value on something, that something has no value. Souls have never been shown to exist.
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  133. That's because it doesn't happen often. Why would I listen to someone trying to strip my rights away? I understand their point of view. They don't understand mine.
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  134. Ummm no? You do realize there are many women who don't meet the criteria for government assistance right? You know what babies actually deserve? Being born into circumstances where their parents love them and can care for them. Congratulations on being able to take care of your children. Too many people can't
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  135. You know what else has its own unique genetic code? Tumors. Tumors have their own DNA. The "fetal heartbeat" is nothing more than the MOTHER controlling a bundle of nerves that will eventually become the pacemaker for the heart. This cannot even be heard. It can only be seen on a sonagram. To equate it to the heartbeat of a fully formed heart is extremely dishonest. 96% of abortions take place before the end of the first trimester. No, its not murder.
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  136. The only people who say things like that are privileged people who do not know how bad others suffer.
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  137.  @justapotato2434  How is giving birth to a child when you're not capable of caring for it responsible?
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  138. Because for most of us, there is no emotional baggage.
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  139. Saying condoms are "98% effective" has been continuously disproved. Get your facts straight. Did you even know that nearly 40% of abortions were conceived using protection?
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  140.  @SaiyanMonkeyDude  No it isn't, because adoption does not become a factor until after birth. Its a solution to parenthood. Again, no. It isn't. Its acknowledging the inabilty to raise a childe in a healthy environment and terminating development when it is unable to think or feel. Everyone? So how about those that had health conditions or ectopic pregnancies? They should be tried for having the right to bodily autonomy? Should we also jail any person who has a miscarriage until it can be proven they did nothing to abort that fetus? I know you're misguided into thinking that your view helps people, but it really doesn't.
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  141. As if selfishness is a bad thing and you are not a selfish person, which you are because your human. You come first. Don't pretend you don't. Also, 70% of the population are pro-choice, so the age thing is irrelevant.
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  142. First of all, fetus. Not baby. Baby is post utero. Secondly, if its truly its own body then remove it from the uterus. Oh wait, but then it dies. Because its body is only developing by using a person. Being alive is irrelevant. The McDonalds you ate for lunch was alive and was actually sentient, and you took no issue with its slaughter. You take no issue with slow codes, DNC'S, or removing a person from life support right? "That baby will grow up" you don't know that. We hope that fetus will be born happy and healthy and grow up, but that is never a guarantee. The fact is that when you say things like this, you condescend to people like me who were tortured by unfit parents and are incapable of living a normal life, who would have opted for abortion had we been given the choice. A fetus doesn't choose to live anymore than it chooses to be aborted. If you're pro-gun, pro death-penalty and not vegan, then you justify taking life all the time.
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  143. No, we're killing non-sentient fetuses.
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  144.  @tyler6971  Yes it is. And I recommend using it and Googling the definition of murder.
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  145. It physically can't be used as birth control because birth control prevents ovulation. Abortion terminates pregnancy.
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  146. You decided to take the risk to drive, therefore you are just as responsible as the person who hit you, so pay for it. Makes sense right?
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  147. Science holds no argument on abortion. Sex is more for pleasure than it is for anything else. I agree with abstinence when able and protection, but that does little when the event has already occurred.
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  148. I fail to see how a manipulative person should be respected...
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  149.  @mathildeyoung1823  Keep lying about abortion being convenient and pretending humans are somehow special, when we're just animals with higher cognitive function. Keep ignoring those of us who you're stance has permanently destroyed. It shows how much you actually care. Not at all.
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  150. Clearly the context is "I love the access I have to a medical procedure regardless of what others say."
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  151. Neither do you.
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  152.  @matt1325  No it isn't. It has no comparable features to a child other than species. It isn't developed. It isn't sentient. It has no personhood characteristics. To compare the two is dishonest.
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  153.  @matt1325  No, it doesn't have personhood characteristics based on the established definition of personhood. The one who is trying to change the definition is you, not me. A fetus does not have sentience, thought, emotion, reason, individuality or personality. It has the potential for these things. Please, stop trying to morally grandstand and think about this topic from a different perspective. Sentience has no inconsistencies. You're either sentient or you're not. There's no middle of the road.
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  154. Science is neutral on abortion. I am a scientist and can make an argument for abortion. I understand its life. I understand its human.
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  155. No you aren't, and to claim so is disingenuous. If abortion is murdering a child, then ordering Mcdonalds is animal abuse.
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  156.  @forrestlimon  Haha. You haven't read the Bible have you?
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  157.  @aaronk3465  Murder is exclusively a legal term. Without a legislative body, murder does not exist. No one kills babies in an abortion. That's more inflammatory rheotric. A fetus is killed in an abortion, and I empathize with the situation, not the non-sentient fetus. The spider I stepped on has more consciousness than a fetus at the time of most abortions, and as I see no inherent value in human life, an abortion is simply a medical procedure. I am much more empathetic to the situation. If there's any alternative to abortion, I think someone should explore it. But that is their choice. If killing another human is never moral, why do you praise the military? Why are you (usually) pro-capital punishment? Human life is not special. You're special (in my opinion) because of your cognition. Not the fact that you're alive.
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  158. That might be the biggest strawman I've ever seen.
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  159. You do realize that those unborn don't feel pain at the time of most abortions right?
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  160.  @fisforfunny2914  Yep, because it doesn't have the right to use my body without my consent.
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  161.  @fisforfunny2914  So should consent and bodily autonomy just...not matter? I'd say that's fucked up.
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  162.  @fisforfunny2914  "in 9 months it will be born" Yes, as if over 50% of fertilized eggs either never implant or miscarry. Get real. A fetus isn't the one asking for consent. YOU are the one asking for consent. And if you DON'T consent, then a fetus has NO RIGHT to your body. Yes, because its just as easy as "adoption" or "take care of it". Please live in reality.
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  163. Fetuses who cannot feel...are somehow treated worse than animals who can feel...because their life is terminated when they can't think. Babies aren't fetuses. You guys really love lying to spin a narrative huh?
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  164. No it isn't. Very specific criteria have to be met for a double homicide charge. Its unlawful termination of a pregnancy. That doesn't change the fact that all organic matter is a clump of cells. Also no. You rarely hear a "heartbeat" at 21 days, and even if you do, its entirely controlled by rhe mother. 1% is millions of people. So who cares about the percentage? Abstinence is NOT effective. We are animals. Most of us have a drive to have sex. To deny that urge is unhealthy. Abortion is never convenient. Its not covered by insurance. Its extremely stigmatized. Its traumatic. You will never be prepared, and should you ever get pregnant, you'll learn that.
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  165.  @brandon3494  There is consent needed. A fetus does not have the right to use a womb unless the pregnant person consents to it. You aren't removing anything but the potential for life to exist. Also, abortion is never convenient. Simply put, a fetus is property until personhood is achieved. It is chattle. And the owner can do with it what they want.
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  166. No, they're just objectively correct. Abortion isn't murder.
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  167.  @hunterhuie1550  Just because you don't agree with something doesn't define what it is. Stop using murder to define your morality. Murder is strictly a legal term. Facts don't care about your feelings.
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  168. Please show me where this contraception is. I can't get contraception (even if I could take it) without an authorized prescription from a doctor.
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  169. That's your opinion. Forced birth is wrong in mine.
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  170.  @James-rc6qq  It is forced birth. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.
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  171. No.
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  172. Two reasons. A) Because a separate person has rights where the unborn do not And B) Because that "someone" is a sentient person, where a fetus isn't. You don't abort a baby. Baby is post utero.
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  173. @Humanity Galatica It doesn't matter what you believe. Murder has an established definition, and you are intentionally ignoring that definition in order to propagate a narrative. That is lying.
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  174.  @boguszmakowski2357  None the less true. Look at Poland.
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  175. Nah.
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  176. Umm, yes we do. There is plenty of voter data to show conservatives (who are the ones who are usually pro-life) are against higher taxes, easier access to healthcare and education, and increased spending on things like SNAP and WIC, all of which would vastly help those considering abortion. And you are pro-birth. You literally advocate against any other alternative. I'm not saying all pro-lifers don't want to help those that are born, but you certainly don't want to spend your own money doing it in a lot of cases.
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  177. Its not murder, because it doesn't fit the definition. 2 things. 1, you can be pro-choice and anti-abortion and 2, abortion is taking responsibility. What would not be taking responsibility would be to have a child you know you cannot care for, and subjecting it to abuse and neglect. Men already have outs if they don't want to pay child support. Terminate you parental rights.
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  178.  @fearfullywonderfullymade691  And that is totally true. There are people who practice infanticide, and that should certainly be ended. Most late term abortions are done for medical reasons, but there are certainly some that aren't.
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  179.  @Pedro2NR  Depends on the context.
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  180. And is also one of the best providers for those in need of pre-natal care and STD related issues for people who cannot afford treatment.
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  181.  @yup6730  No, it is. If you actually have an argument, I would love to debate you because by definition, it can't be birth control, and people don't just have thousands of dollars to spend. If you want to argue that the fetus is alive, then we agree. But to say its independent or seperate is just not true. By the way, abortion is being responsible. Just as adoption and parenthood are. Feel free to tell me your thoughts.
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  182.  @hettinga359  what if they were to tell you they wish they had been aborted? How would you react?
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  183. Just because you do something that is immature or reckless does not mean you don't get access to help and medical treatment. Just because someone drives drunk and causes an accident, it doesn't bar them from medical attention. The same is true for abortions. Abortion is not a worse option than abuse and neglect. Men should get a say. They just don't get the final say.
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  184.  @travisjohnson7065  Fetuses don't have the right to life.
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  185.  @EricaRose  Yes, and you are misinterpreting the meaning behind that statement by taking it as literally as possible. I'm simply informing you that isn't what she means.
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  186. Nope, I don't agree. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. You don't lose your right to bodily autonomy just because you consented and are about 20.
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  187. If we look up the definition of murder than no. No it isn't
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  188.  @AkonFenty1992  Actually, you twisted the definition from Webster in order to fit your narrative. I gave you the Oxford dictionary definition. If you want the ACTUAL Webster definition it is: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice. So no, you were debunked. And you were shown to be a liar. Care to continue? And if you want, I can show you screenshots of the page in both the Webster and Oxford dictionary. Because they say the same thing in both the book and online.
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  189. That's your opinion. Subjecting a child to neglect and abuse from unfit parents is also immoral and violent.
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  190.  @matt1325  I will do some research then. That's awful.
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  191.  @whistle4301  A fetus does not have the right to live. Even if it did, it would not have that right at the expense of someone else without explicit consent. I dom't get to take your kidney forcefully, even if I'll die without it. You wouldn't do anything about it. This is been continuously known as the bystander effect. Sure, you'll say you'd do something, but you wouldn't in reality. If its not "my body" and is its own seperate being, why does it die if removed from my seperate body? Right. Because its not seperate. It is biologically dependent, and that legally makes it property, just like chattle.
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  192.  @ilya34prvur19  It would make this discussion a whole lot better if people like you didn't continue to lie and be dishonest on order to spin a narrative.
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  193.  @ljb8157  Yeah? A period causes pain and blood. And we don't freak out about that. Capital punishment, DNR'S, slow codes. They end human life. So what? Death is a part of life, and its certainly better than suffering.
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  194.  @lawinaabraham3073  I don't think its bad taste to celebrate having a right to your body.
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  195. How exactly does raping and murdering someone affect your bodily autonomy...? I mean, I know where this strawman is going but have some manner of logic.
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  196.  @travisjohnson7065  So should you. If the issue is life, then those sperm are just as living as the developing embryo.
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  197.  @zachman5150  Yes...now try finiding a doctor that will do it before your in your mid 30's. Also, neither a vasectomy nor a tubal ligation 100% prevents pregnancy. Only way is a full/partial hysterectomy.
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  198. @UC09LHwVJGOmYixy9Pyt4xXw Except that doesn't happen. You need to have extensive treatment before a doctor will consider you for that. I have lupus and severe endometriosis, and I cannot find a doctor who will give me a hysterectomy because I'm "too young."
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  199.  @that_single_mama  What you are describing is a late term abortion, something performed nearly exclusively for medical reasons. And that is not what 96% of abortions look like.
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  200.  @travisjohnson7065  How about not trying to push your personal morality as objectively right? Since you know...its subjective? If its not my body, then why does a fetus die if its removed from me? It's its own body right? You do not inherently have rights, and even if you did, they are all equal. You do not get to live at the expense of someone else. Its that simple.
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  201. The "body that's growing inside my body" cannot continue to do that without using me, something it has no right to do unless I allow it. I do get to make that decision because only I own my uterus. It is not my problem that the fetus will die if removed from it before a certain period of time. Everyone is selfish. You come first in your own life. Quit pretending being selfish is a bad thing. No, abortion is not murder. Again, quit being a liar in order to spin a narrative. That's a fetuses life that cares less about death than the cow that was butchered for the McDonald's you ate for lunch. It is my right to take it because its using my body.
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  202.  @Lila17_  The brainstem, which is what controls subconcious bodily functions, does not develop entirely until between the 10th and 12th week of pregnancy. The brain itself doesn't develop until the 14th to 15th week. Organs are the first thing to begin to develop, but the heart isn't developed at 6 weeks. That's an easily debunked lie. I never said it wasn't alive. It is. Your right it was cruel. I would not have had to suffer that had my mom been allowed an abortion. So way to trivialize my suffering, and the suffering of millions of others. Some people aren't ready to be parents. That's why abortion exists.
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  203. Abortion is an option no matter what the reason.
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  204.  @genikhairav7662  I mean, it is. Just like a DNR, slow code, removing someone off of life support, or shooting some fucker who's on your property-
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  205. And that's perfectly fine advice. But the problem is its not always effective or discussed, and it does not help a pregnancy that has already occured.
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  206.  @travisjohnson7065  You're wording here is strange, but as someone with a Master's in biology, we don't specifically say its her body. We just state it is a biological dependent, which, colloquially would be equivalent to being "the mothers body". If you remove the fetus from her uterus before viability, it will die. It's potential is there, but its individuality is not. Tldr; If you claim its a torally seperate entity not applicable to bodily autonomy, then removing it from the uterus should be no issue.
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  207. Yes how dare we support bodily autonomy and think that unfit parents shouldn't have children they will abuse...
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  208. That's because you have an unhealthy fear of death, and the act is not what she is celebrating. The choice to legally take that act is what is celebrated.
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  209.  @rghaw  The person isn't charged with manslaughter. They are charged with unlawful termination of a pregnancy. Also, that is not how most abortions are performed. Most abortions are done via a pill or an injection. Surgical abortions (the ones you mention) are only done late term, and legal late term abortions are done exclusively for medical reasons.
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  210. That is absolutely not true. When the heart stops functioning, you are only considered medically dead. Its only after trying to save the brain by restarting the heart that you are clincally dead. That is when a time of death is called. By the way, a fetal heartbeat is not a functioning heart.
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  211.  @travisjohnson7065  When you have an ultimatum, it no longer becomes a choice. You shouldn't be punished for wanting to die. They are absolutely not comparable. Owning a sentient human is in no way the same as termination of a non-sentient fetus. And once again, you claiming abortion is wrong is your opinion. And to then lie about it being convenient is ridiculous. A fetus has no human rights to begin with, because it is only considered human in terms of species. Injustice is trying to control someone else's body. You're just dishonest.
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  212. You don't make the CHOICE to get pregnant. That action occurs without a conscious decision from the brain. You CHOOSE to have sex (in most cases) which does not mean you're CHOOSING pregnancy. Actually, I would argue realzing you're an unfit parent who will probably abuse and neglect your child and then opting for abortion IS caring about the child's life. Because its removing it before it has the capacity to feel or care. Abortion is not murder. Murder is a legal term. You can certainly say abortion is killing, but so is eating McDonalds. So no, thats not a fact. That's just a lie spread by pro-lifers. Also no. Being manipulative and arguing from a religion (which by the way has no problem with abortion according to its own holy books) are really weak arguments against abortion.
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  213.  @CandyWorld30  Then your reasoning behind it isn't "it has different DNA". Your reasoning is that its a "seperate human". The remove the fetus and see what happens. A fetus is harmful to the mother. It is fundamentally a parasite. That doesn't make it bad if the person wants it. But to argue it isn't hurtful is just a lack of knowledge.
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  214.  @CandyWorld30  Yes, almost as if its not seperate and biologically dependent on the person it is using in order to survive for a period of time. Being human doesn't matter. Its irrelevant to the argument of abortion. Its not a person and it is using a person to live. You don't get that option unless the person consents.
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  215.  @travisjohnson7065  It makes all the difference. You really think abortions would exist if it was possible for a fetus to grow outside the womb? No. Would you stop comparing fetuses to children? Its dishonest and irritating. By the way, there are plenty of stories of kids basically caring for themselves. You are responsible for your own actions. Abortion is one solution.
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  216.  @travisjohnson7065  In your opinion. Abusing a child to death or neglecting it to death is just as bad. Only difference is one can feel.
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  217. Could you people actually be bothered to look up what the definition of murder actually is before you spout nonsense?
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  218. I'd love for you to provide a list of those resources, where they are located and their requirments.
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  219. Someone can't be bothered to google the definition of a word.
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  220.  @jenamiahhjunee1153  That is perhaps the most privileged thing I have ever heard. If you really think death is immense suffering, you're ignorant or delusional.
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  221.  @matt1325  I would love to. I find you extremely insightful and respectful.
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  222. Because your rights include the right to bodily autonomy. Access to abortion would fall under that right.
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  223. That's not what murder means. And yes, just somehow turn off your ability to get pregnant...makes sense.
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  224.  @richardmiller3839  Pregnancy is not something you choose. It is an effect that occurs independently from the brain. Just as you do not choose for someone to have an accident, even though you go out with the knowledge that its a possibility. You don't have a responsibility to "protect" a fetus unless you consent to it in the first place.
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  225. And its not. That's why states have cut off dates. You also aren't pro-life. You're pro-choice.
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  226.  @travisjohnson7065  No, people who want abortion to be legal are pro-choice. Pro-abortion people are anti-natalists. No, not necessarily. Because pro-life doesn't just refer to abortions. I know several people who are entirely against abortions but are for assisted suicide or euthanasia. These labels don't just apply to the abortion debate.
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  227.  @travisjohnson7065  Oh boy, then do I suggest you do some research. You will find floods of videos of people literally calling people monsters for having children. I worked for 2 years in a dispatch center, and we got several calls claiming that newborns were being abused simply because the mother chose of have them. While we don't like to believe people like this exist, they absolutely do. Sure, but that is not its definition. For you to be pro-life, you must be against abortion in any case and be against any type of euthanasia. Most "pro-lifers" aren't actually even pro-life, as most make abortion exceptions.
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  228.  @lucymalone1006  It is a parasite by definition.
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  229.  @lucymalone1006  Merriam Webster for one. an organism living in, on, or with another organism in order to obtain nutrients, grow, or multiply often in a state that directly or indirectly harms the host Contrary to several comments, it does NOT have to be a seperate species to be classified, biologically as a parasite. Bluegill sunfish is a prime example.
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  230.  @mkshort1  Because you're wrong. Evolution isn't goal oriented. It only occurs if a species adapts for survivability.
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  231.  @pr6046  I never said I wasn't selfish. I am. I'm human. I can't do my best for the people I love and care about if I am not in control of my life. Being selfish is not inherently a bad thing. Being egotistical and narcissistic is, which selfishness can lead to. I never said I wouldn't appreciate it. You misunderstood. I'm saying that between you and a random stranger who's hungry, you would put yourself first. And that isn't a bad thing. You can't help anyone when you aren't in control
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  232. Please make birth control easily and readily available to everyone then.
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  233.  @travisjohnson7065  A fetus doesn't have the right to life. And even if it did, it would not have it at the expense of the carrier's liberty. And no actually. The right to life actually does depend on being sentient, because it depends on personhood. Not human life.
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  234.  @travisjohnson7065  A child has a right to life. A fetus does not. My point was that if you are going to say a fetus has the right to life (which even I think it should), it would not overrule the right to liberty. You do not get to use another person's body to sustain your life without consent. I'm not framing anyone as a victim. I am stating the facts. Its never been called the "human" right to life. You've literally made that up. What is said is "no person or state shall deprive any PERSON Of life, liberty, property..." Yes, you would stop being a person. Because personhood is dependent on sentience. You don't have to test sentience. Its the ability to think and feel subjectively, which we know a fetus does not have at the time of most abortions.
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  235. Yes, because sex is always consensual.
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  236. Imagine not knowing you can be pro-choice and anti-abortion or mot understanding basic biology.
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  237. That is a flat out lie and easily debunked. In fact, late term abortions are nearly exclusively done for medical purposes or were performed later because of a lack of abortion services.
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  238. @crumb How about people just have bodily autonomy
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  239.  @zachman5150  I am well aware. I am one of those people. I'm all for abstinence if you can. Forced abstinence, however, is unhealthy. No one is arguing to the act of conception. But pregnancy itself is not a choice. You don't choose whether or not an egg is fertilized and implants. Aww why are you so mad? Can't have an adult discussion?
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  240. Except that's usually not what happens, because most people cannot pay for private adoptions. Foster care is any person (child or adult) under the care of the state.
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  241. He should not have the ultimate say about what happens to someone else's body.
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  242. Show me a fetus that develops a body without first implanting in a person's uterus and developing that body over a prolonged period of time. Oh right. It doesn't happen. They aren't scientifically seperate, any more than any other parasite is.
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  243. No.
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  244. Women celebrate the ability to have access to abortion when they choose. It absolutely is not murdet, and to call it murder is dishonest. "All life has meaning" So are you a vegan? The animals you eat have meaning and sentience by your own words. The fetus does not care. Why do you?
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  245. It really isn't.))
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  246. As if you would have cared at the time. You only care in hindsight. Happy that you weren't horribly abused and neglected by unloving parents.
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  247.  @alarrim29574  No, you're killing a fetus. And they aren't comparable
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  248. As if doctors make that much money from abortions compared to other practices...
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  249.  @PhillipReina  Yeah you are. All humans are. You subject people to suffering and abuse, so how is that helpful?
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  250.  @cman04  Here's the problem. Abortion is not murder. That is not an opinion. Murder is a legal term with an established definition that you don't just get to change. Yes, it is a life. But that doesn't define murder, and to claim it does is dishonest.
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  251. They're not. They have options as well. Fight for custody or terminate your rights.
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  252. And they have that right. How do you know they didn't use protection? What she choses to do with her body is her choice
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  253.  @theyautjawarrior6652  And I agree. But giving birth to a child you do not want and will likely neglect is also irresponsible.
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  254.  @theyautjawarrior6652  Adoption is not a solution to unwanted pregnancy, nor is it always an option.
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  255. Lmao. They don't. Double homicide almost never sticks. They're charged with unlawful termination of a pregnancy.
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  256.  @matt1325  So the problem with your dolphin comparison is you seem to lack the knowledge of what a special pleading fallacy is. Special pleading is when you make an exception to a claim that is proven false. Saying that a dolphin has no personhood is not a false claim. Sentience is what defines personhood, but personhood is a term entirely specific to humans. You are creating a strawman. There are also no "degrees" of sentience. You are either sentient or you aren't. You are confusing sentience with intelligence and rationality. Also, if I found a human who was not rational in nature, would you not deem them valuable? Value is something placed on you by others. Its not a prescriptive term. Humans will never be valued equally.
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  257.  @JoeyB0b  I absolutely agree.
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  258.  @travisjohnson7065  Nah. My conscious totally is fine with abortion. You don't care about life. Stop pretending humans are on some pedastal.
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  259.  @James-rc6qq  Nope. That's just what the moniker wants you to believe. The pro-choice side not only cares more about life, but also cares about quality of life for all parties involved. Pro-lifers are the same people who don't want to help healthcare or women after birth.
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  260.  @ilya34prvur19  So what? They're more sentient than the fetus your up in arms about aborting. Why are humans on such a pedestal? We're animals as well.
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  261.  @escandon785 No. No it isn't. Why not take 30 seconds and actually look at what the definition of murder is? Also, fetus is the term for any unborn mammal. Who cares that its human? You're not special because you're human. You're just an ape who got lucky on the fusion of chomosome 2 during evoultion. Value is descriptive, not prescriptive.
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  262.  @escandon785  No, but he only has those rights because a governmental body grants him those rights. They aren't inherent.
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  263. Let's just prented that's actually how adoption works.
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  264.  @kva5751  You literally have to cherry pick the Bible in order to not be in jail.
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  265.  @nickstojic6995  "if its wrong" would be a subjective opinion. You do not have the right to own another person. You do have the right to your own body. Comparing abortion to slavery is a strawman.
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  266. It would be unlawful termination of a pregnancy. Not murder.
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  267. Life begins at conception. That will never be changed. That's not the argument when it comes to abortion.
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  268.  @imadedisaccount2commentido693  As a pro-choice person, this is an argument that has to stop. Because it is scientifically inaccurate. We do not define life based on sentience. Its when arguing when a fetus is a person, that this argument can be used.
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  269. Imagine not knowing that you can use protection...and still get pregnant.
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  270. No. No its not. Please stop trying to define morality using legal terms.
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  271. And you also hear about pro-choicers being assaulted as well. That shouldn't be a factor.
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  272.  @matt1325  But that's just your opinion. Had I had the choice to see what my life would be, I would absolutely have chosen to be aborted. Abortion is not equivalent to child abuse. Child abuse does affect you, even if its not your child.
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  273. Why do you assume they aren't using protection? Also...no? You would not see accidental pregnancy go down. You'd just see an end to safe abortions.
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  274.  @amayaaaaooo  As if the end goal of sex is pregnancy. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.
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  275. Yet another addition to the pro-life liars.
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  276. They will always be the biological father. They don't have the be the legal father.
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  277.  @hunterhuie1550  You call it killing. Murder does not always equate to killing. The McDonalds you had for lunch cared more about its death than an aborted fetus.
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  278.  @shawnboahene5231  Are you vegan? Are you anti-gun? Are you against the death penalty? I find very few pro-lifers who are these things, in which case no. You don't care about life. You care about sentience, humanity and innocence. Which is perfectly fine. Just be honest about it. Yes, I would seek justice, but the reason has nothing to do with the fact that they were alive. It has to do with the fact that they were sentient, capable of feeling and experiencing. That is the problem with the abortion debate. You claim its about life. I claim its about sentience.
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  279. No one is pro-abortion. If you feel a murderous rage toward people who are pro-choice, you should probably see a psychiatrist.
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  280. Its almost as if they want the rights to their own bodies as well are are much more disenfranchised economically. Imagine...
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  281.  @br1annaaaaaa  Because you don't get the right to use a person's body without their consent. A fetus is property. No different than chattle.
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  282.  @br1annaaaaaa  Dead. Because if you're developing in the stomach, that's an ectpoic pregnancy. You are a human fetus in utero.
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  283.  @br1annaaaaaa  If its in the stomach, it would be. The uterus is not the stomach. Your lack of anatomy is outstanding.
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  284.  @br1annaaaaaa  Because the fetus is property. The only one who can give consent is the mother.
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  285.  @oookoshka3734  It's not hypocrisy if you do not believe life has inherent value.
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  286. A fetus has no rights and even if it did (and should) its rights would be equal to the mother.
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  287. No, its not. Its unlawful termination of a pregnancy.
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  288. Adoption is not an answer to unwanted pregnancy. And only giving the child to the state is free. The foster care system is broken, and rarely do children only ever get one family.
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  289. Yes...because its disgusting for people to stand up for their rights.
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  290. @Humanity Galatica Could you stop lying?
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  291. Fetuses are property. They are not "someone" until long after most abortions take place.
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  292. You love being a manipulative liar.
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  293.  @GravityFailure  Medicaid is not only not accepted by all providers, not everyone meets the requirments for it.
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  294.  @GravityFailure  No, I understand they are not cheap. But they're cheaper than a doctor's appointment. I am an advocate for a person to have complete bodily autonomy.
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  295.  @arthurz3808  And I find that statement incredibly ridiculous. Sure, they could have grown up to be the cure to cancer. They also could have grown up to be the next Ted Bundy. Which of those outcomes is statistically more likely? I certainly know I would have asked to have been aborted.
    2
  296.  @JohnJohn-yp5vp  Non-sequitar: a conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement. You, in fact, did not use non-sequitar correctly, as the car accident statement does indeed logically follow the previous statement. They were comparing the ridiculousness.
    2
  297.  @AJ-lm5dl  Being conscious is not the same thing as being sentient.
    2
  298.  @AJ-lm5dl  No, they aren't. Conciousness in the context is being awake and aware of one's surroundings. You can be sentient (the ability to think and feel and have experience) and not be conscious. Why don't you pick up a dictionary?
    2
  299. I mean unless you're actually being honest. Then its not murder.
    2
  300. Except that isn't what the law said and was thoroughly debunked. That rumor was spread by a pro-life legal analyst. You can't have an abortion after birth. Abortion is termination of a pregnancy.
    2
  301.  @AJ-lm5dl  A fetus is human is species alone until sentience is gained. That's where most draw the difference between "human" and "human being".
    2
  302. Please look up thr definition of murder. And it is quite literally a medical procedure.
    2
  303.  @cadenjohnson1137  Bodily autonomy is a human right. Its called the right to liberty. Also abortion isn't murder. Read a dictionary.
    2
  304.  @Pedro2NR  Because murder is legal term.
    2
  305.  @milluh  No it isn't. Its unlawful termination of a pregnancy. Tumors also have their own seperate DNA. Can they no longer be removed? And if its not the mothet's body, then what's the problem with simply removing the fetus? Oh right. It dies. Because until viability, it is a biologically dependent parasite.
    2
  306. How hypocritical.
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  307. No it doesn't. Any more than putting it as pro and anti-rights or pro/anti-choice would be (both of which would be far more accurate) Pro-choice isn't anti-life. People who are pro-choice choose life all the time.
    2
  308. Umm what? No. Manslaughter, murder and unlawful termination of a pregnancy are all seperate charges. They're just all felony charges.
    2
  309. How can anyone be so disingenuous as to compare the murder of an infant with abortion? Or to blatantly misrepresent someone's statement? You people are so dishonest.
    2
  310.  Galleon  Those are actually millions of people. Also, I need a kidney to live. So you should be dragged into the OR to have yours removed to save my life. After all, my life is above your bodily autonomy.
    2
  311. Except that's misleading and dishonest.
    2
  312.  @AJ-lm5dl  Actually, no its not. Because a pro-abortionist would advocate for mandatory abortions. There is no "choice" over having a right to one's body. I have that right, just as you do. Keep lying though.
    2
  313.  @yup6730  The one who is being a child is you. If you cannot take criticism from an "opinion" that had real world consequences on people, then don't share them. You do not have to respond to me if you don't want to engage in conversation.
    2
  314.  @kva5751  imagine completely missing the point and still being on the side that would force a 12 year old to give birth.
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  315.  @kva5751  Then you aren't pro-life, as pro-life by definition requires you to be against abortion in all circumstances. Or are you one of those dishonest people who tries to change the definition of a word to suit your narrative? Oh hey wanna know a fun fact? You can be pro-choice and anti-abortion.
    2
  316. Its not pro-abortion it's pro-choice.
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  317. Except its not objective and it will never be objective. Outside of you being raised to believe something is right or wrong, what naturally dictates your morality? Nothing.
    2
  318. And here, we have another liar trying to use "guilt" into making people believe something that is easily shown to be false in order to spin a narrative.
    2
  319.  @willowwisp5784  You are. Nice try trying to pass SNAP off as that easy though.
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  320.  @willowwisp5784  Because a) its not a 10 minute interview and b) There are so many reasons you can be denied. Quit trying to pretend its easy to get assitance when necessary.
    2
  321.  @JKR_ninja  Tumors also have their own DNA and are living. Guess we can't remove those either hmm? Also no. It doesn't have a beating heart. In fact, you wouldn't even be able to hear a heartbeat. You can see it on a sonagram around 6 weeks, and all it is is nerve fibers that will form what becomes the pacemaker for the fetuses heart when it fully develops. To compare that to say, the heartbeat of the mother, is just not medically accurate. The nervous system doesn't function until between 13 and 15 weeks, after the meninges have formed and attached the nerve endings to the brainstem. Those videos have been debunked. Surgical abortions for later term abortions occur exclusively for medical purposes. Most abortions are performed before the end of the first trimester (the average being between 7 and 9 weeks) and are done via a pill. Is it still killing a life? Sure. But stop lying to try to make abortion worse than what it is.
    2
  322. As if protected sex doesn't also end in pregnancy...
    2
  323.  @matt1325  Because you said you would force your daughter to go through trauma if she wanted an abortion. That's vile.
    2
  324. You'd probably have a dislike of someone too if they were trying to take your rights.
    2
  325.  @kingjom5651  Because I enjoy healthy debate with people. I've called out a few pro-choicers as well.
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  326. Yes because it's shown to harm the fetus. What does this have to do with abortion?
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  327. As if that rhetoric works. Most people want to have sex. Its healthy and pleasureable.
    2
  328.  @KatOnline  Problems with that. Birth control is not available/accessible to everyone and not everyone can use it, and both condoms and birth control fail. To say "don't take it out on the baby" is kinda...disgusting. it trivializes the trauma of not only rape, but the damage that rape causes. The fetus is not a person. It likes sentience and therefore lacks personhood. And again, you can be on both, and still get pregnant.
    2
  329.  @KatOnline  Baby, both medically and scientifically, means post utero. Fetus is simply the correct term. I never said it wasn't alive, because being alive doesn't matter.
    2
  330. And that DNA is 99% percent similar to mine. Please tell me what fetus can develop a body without using a mother's uterus.
    2
  331. You should have a right to abortion regardless.
    2
  332.  @altr-d5177  Late term abortions are performed exclusively for medical necessity.
    2
  333.  @msharp6887  We use personhood because using life would be hypocritical. You're probably not vegan or anti-gun, and conservatives are usually for the death penalty. You've negated your whole argument if you argue from the standpoint of life, because you have no issue with taking life. Its innocent persons you have an issue with. Also, no. If we're being entirely scientific, then "human" life would begin at implantation and not conception. Except, they don't. And science has nothing to do with human rights. Human rights are something granted to you by a government. And they lack these human rights because they aren't people. While science can be used in the abortion debate, it is not a scientific argument. Its a philosophical and moral one. I'm pro-choice, understand its a human, understand its alive, and still realize that I have the right to abort it.
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  334.  @msharp6887  I have no issue with the killing of a non-sentient fetus. I definitely take issue with the killing of a baby. Those two things are not the same thing, so please don't be dishonest in conflating them. No, that definitely still pertains to my original argument. Value is not prescriptive. Its descriptive. Value has always been placed on sentience. Not on life. So to suddenly care about "life" is inconsistent and hypocritical. That is one argument for abortion yes. And that would still apply, considering those who are not people do not have rights. Here comes the dishonesty. I never said human life has no value. I said human life has no inherent value. That's not even an opinion. That's just a harsh reality. You aren't valuable because you exist and are human. You're valuable because you and the people you impact assign that value to you. And neither of these arguments are relevant. The debate should be around "should a fetus have human rights" and "when is personhood formed". These are what pertain to abortion. Not life. Life has NEVER been relevant. They've already ruled on Roe vs Wade. It will not be overturned because to deny access to abortion is a constitutional violation. The Supreme Court has already stated this numerous times.
    2
  335. If its not my body, then just remove the fetus from my uterus. Oh wait...then it dies. Its almost as if it is dependent on my body for its existence.
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  336.  @ilya34prvur19  You people always like to twist the definition of murder. Murder is a legal term. Use it as such.
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  337. They aren't. But if you claim to love the life so much that a person should not be allowed to abort, why shouldn't you have to pay? You're the one forcing them to keep an a pregnancy they can't afford.
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  338. No, what women want is the right to bodily autonomy. And exactly how is abortion irresponsible compared to having a child you neglect and abuse to death?
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  339. And when condoms fail?
    2
  340.  @matt1325  And you still have your right to an abortion.
    2
  341. That's because some of us wish thag had been the case with us.
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  342. No, I totally wish my mother had aborted me over selling me to men and breaking my lumbar spine.
    2
  343. I can think of many justifications for abortion. Also, if we're speaking for the life of the fetus, it begins at implantation. What if you don't consider humans inherently valuable? Is DNA what determines if something is human? Tumors have their own DNA, can I remove them?
    2
  344.  @Povertycab  No, I'm pointing out a flaw in your argument.
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  345.  @Povertycab  No, what I said was "if your only basis for human life is DNA, and that's why abortions should be ilegal, then by your logic, it should be illegal to remove a tumor. They also have separate DNA" You're the one who's crying, not me.
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  346.  @Povertycab  Sounds ike someone doesn't have an explanation.
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  347.  vinod sharma  If only that were actually still true, which it isn't. But no, I didn't support that. Because they were not giving the woman the right to choose to keep it.
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  348. @crumb Would you say that if she were raped?
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  349. I would love to see the idea of how pro-life people are for better treatment of the poor or fostering when those people are usually conservative who don't want Healthcare access, increased education spending or higher taxes. You honestly sound pro-choice.
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  350.  @cahyadsaputra  Last I checked, people still get pregnant using condoms.
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  351. No, its not
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  352. Nah.
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  353. It is a clump of cells as is all organic matter. Also...no? The heart doesn't form until near the middle of the 2nd trimester. What you are hearing is the nerve tissue that will essentially become the pacemaker for the heart. Also NO?? The BRAIN is what gives life. Without a brain, the heart is absolutely useless. You see some women who are lucky enough to be able to care for their child because they are able to work, or recieve aid. What about the millions of women who don't? How about the women like my mother, who wasn't eligible for welfare, and resorted to doing horrible things to me to get money? You're unrealistic entitlement is, frankly, appaling.
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  354. I guess fuck rape victims huh?
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  355. Its not murder.
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  356.  @onnie.6815  No, it would be called killing. Murder is a defined legal term. You cannot murder a cat, because murder only applies to humans. Try looking up the definition of a word before you use it.
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  357. @Argonian Merchant And you would be wrong. Lacking the ability to communicate in a way you understand doesn't mean unable to make a conscious choice. We can easily tell when a child is concious.
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  358.  @alitabaker99  They aren't people. Because personhood requires sentience. That's what they meant by potential for life. Being alive in a biological sense doesn't equate to living in the philosophical sense.
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  359. As a person who had an abortion, I absolutely don't regret it. I regret the situation I was put in that caused me to have to make that decision.
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  360. By the definition of personhood, you are only not a person if you lack sentience and cognition.
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  361.  @aryana7092  Yes.
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  362.  @Mynameisjoof  Anyone who comitted sucide.
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  363.  @Pedro2NR  No, a human is killed. That doesn't make something murder. Murder is a legal term with an established definition.
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  364.  @Pedro2NR  Murder, by definition is unlawful, which abortion is not. So being premeditated, which it is, is irrelevant. I think its moral to do, and morality is subjective. I think its a medical procedure people should have access too. I hope its carefully considered.
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  365.  @immortalspartan4421  The fetus didn't do anything, nor does it care what happens to it. All it did was parasitise the person carrying it, and that simply has to be something they can deal with.
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  366.  @immortalspartan4421  From a philosophical perspective I agree with you, and it would be amazing if we lived in a world like that. But we don't at this point. From a literal perspective, no. Not everyone has the right to live. And your rights don't supercede that of others.
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  367.  @immortalspartan4421  No, they aren't. Personhood is defined by personality, conciousness and sentience. This is not something a fetus has at the time of most abortions.
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  368.  @FlamingBasketballClub  Call me a clown all you want. Doesn't change facts.
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  369. Sorry that the truth hurts. You are a clump of cells, as is all organic life. Give yourself the value you desire. Don't expect it to be inherent. You're special because you choose to be. Not because you were born special. By the way, most abortions take place before the end of the first trimester.
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  370.  @matt1325  No, because a fetus lacks any of the criteria of personhood, other than being a member of the species homo sapians. These characteristics require a (at least partially) developed prefrontal cortex. An animal would be closer in conginition to a person than a fetus would.
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  371.  @thelastkushbendr7091  Nope, not true. State homes turn people away and private adoptions cost money. Yes and? No. The fetus doesn't have a right to my uterus without my consent. Its not my fault it can't live outside my uterus.
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  372.  @thelastkushbendr7091  No, its for pleasure and reproduction. Abortion is never easy.
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  373.  @MonDieuMaCauseMonEpee  Its not a human being. Its a human. Being implies conciousness. There's a difference between a species and a philosophical term.
    2
  374. Umm no? Science begins talking about a life cycle upon ovulation, but pregnancy only begins when a fertilized egg implants into the endometrium.
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  375. Abortion is literally a pill and a D&C in most cases. What's horrifying and gruesome is the abuse, neglect and death that occurs at the hands of unfit parents.
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  376.  @zachman5150  My whole point is that parasites do not have to be different species from each other to be considered parasites. I have no idea where that lie started, but it isn't true. I didn't say anything about a fetus being a parasite to its mother. Maybe don't make assumptions.
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  377.  @zachman5150  I mean, I'm a biologist so I only know what I was taught. They do exist, but I personally don't agree with that perception. This has nothing to do with a fetus being a parasite. My only point was that parasites can be the same species.
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  378.  @TheCapedCognition  You can't force yourself to "love life" if you live a life that is full of downs without experiencing many ups. Why should I have to appreciate life? Something I didn't get the choice in having. You sound condescending and privileged.
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  379.  @TheCapedCognition  When you literally tell someone who has been tortured almost their entire life that they should be grateful to be alive, you come off as privileged. I don't consider myself pathetic. I have simply had experiences that you have not, and that gives me my attitude on life. The fact that you can say that "its possible for everyone to appreciate life" can only tell me you have not experienced the trauma I have or that you are able to handle it better than I can. Because that statement is absolutely false. I can never appreciate life, because I can't force myself to believe that any happiness life brings me was worth the amount of suffering I endured. Help will never fix the past. I cannot heal. And all I ask is that you understand that. Death is not, and will never, be worse than suffering.
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  380.  @travisjohnson7065  Then you'd be wrong and really should stop speaking on a topic you know nothing about to try a justify a position that you hold. Because you refuse to acknowledge the fact that there are people out there that actually would have chosen to be aborted.
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  381.  @XXLaLa8623  If you're trying to claim that a fetus can feel pain when it develops a fetal heartbeat, you're extremely uneducated.
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  382. "Autonomous with its own heartbeat" which is entirely controlled by the mother. So how is that autonomous?
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  383.  @frog6468  And...if the condom fails, do you suddenly consent to pregnancy?
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  384.  Ryan Pricer  That's true. And I am all for abstinence if you can be abstinent. However, there are so many reasons why that just doesn't work. Sex isn't some black and white issue where its just have it/don't.
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  385.  @annenextdoor612  You can't choose whether or not you get pregnant. That is not only ridiculous, but a flat out harmful lie. I'm glad your country works like that. The US does not. But if you're trying to say that you can't get pregnant from rape, that is a fucked up lie.
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  386.  @annenextdoor612  I am well aware that it takes time for the egg to fertilize and implant. But even if you seek help after rape, nothing is sometimes done. The morning after pill is something not available everywhere. That was my original point. Rape goes unhelped as well, even if you go to the ER. Also, you do know that the morning after pill can fail right? Sex ed depends on where you live. My school personally didn't teach it.
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  387.  @gagewesterhouse9558  Yes it is true. Because you fail to take into account the illegal abortions that took place before Roe Vs. Wade.
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  388. No such thing as a post birth abortion.
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  389.  @CandyWorld30  If DNA determines what species something is, then what species are tumors? Tumors are living cells with different DNA from the host, so by your logic, they can't be removed. If its a seperate being, why does it die if its removed from the uterus? Because the two are biologically inseparable. Even if we granted a fetus rights, those rights stop where anothers starts. A fetus does not have the right to use someone's uterus without the consent of the person with said uterus. That doesn't make it any less human, but being human and alive is irrelevant.
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  390.  @CandyWorld30  DNA in tumors is never the same as its host. That's the point of being a mutation. Tumors have seperate DNA from their hosts, so if that is your argument for a fetus, its just as valid for a tumor. Tumors have less identical DNA of the person they're attached to than a fetus does. Your argument falls apart. It doesn't matter that its human. If its a seperate human, why does it die if removed from the uterus? Because it can't be seperated. I urge you to take a biology class.
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  391.  @CandyWorld30  I'm sorry, but it absolutely does. You do not get to live at a person's expense. It's really that simple. I'm not here to debate if abortion is okay, because you and I will never see eye to eye on that. Abortion is not a moral issue for me, and it is for you. I only have an issue with you if you are a pro-life abolitionist.
    2
  392.  @sharkas9965  A fetus is the correct term to refer to any mammal in utero. In humans its 10 weeks. You know what's not an accuraate term? Baby.
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  393.  Galleon  Hope she knows how much of a hypocrite you are then. "Oh the fetus is valuable unless its rape. Then fuck it I guess." Try for 5 minutes to be consistent.
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  394.  @idkbro4932  Being honest with someone and calling a spade a spade is not forcing your beliefs on anyone, especially when pro-life is inherently wrong from a human rights position.
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  395. Congrats. You don't speak for all of us. I am permanently disabled because of the abuse I suffered, and my success isn't worth that pain.
    2
  396.  @hubster4477  Please tell me where this free birth control is. Because you can't get female contraception without a prescription where I live.
    2
  397.  @travisjohnson7065  I know several people with ectopic pregnancies and bleeding disorders that would heavily dispute the "no one ever needs an abortion" statement. Also no. I don't think abortion is wrong.
    2
  398.  @James-rc6qq  That doesn't give a fetus a right to a womb any more than you consenting to being an organ donor gives me a right to your kidney.
    2
  399.  @James-rc6qq  Because it is a very accurate argument. Pregnancy is a seperate act invoulntary of the brain. Pregnancy is not something that is chosen, and the act of sex doesn't consent to pregnancy. That's an independent action from the brain. The organ debate comes from the ethical question you morons like to throw around. If someone needs an organ to save their life, should you be morally obligated to give yours up for them? No. Same thing with pregnancy. A fetus isn't owed my uterus. Not my fault it can't live outside it.
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  400.  @James-rc6qq  I've replied to everything you've ever responded. Ball's in your court.
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  401. But that is deliberately emotional wording, because not everyone believes abortion is evil.
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  402. Having a fertilized egg implant is not a concious choice. Just because someone engages in sex does not mean they are choosing to be pregnant.
    2
  403.  @coeuradorateur  Pregnancy can be the direct result of sex. Doesn't mean it always is, or that its a conscious act. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.
    2
  404. And pro-life is just a marketing slogan violent uncaring douchebags use to feel justified in watching mass suffering.
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  405. ...nope. still your choice to get vaccinated-
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  406.  @JK_JK_JK  That's in very few places, but I 100% think that needs to stop.
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  407.  @orionizaqt  If that's the case, the answer is yes. It is difficult to read inflection.
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  408.  @matt1325  Because "person' is implicative of human
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  409.  @TheBlackSuburban  No. Murder is unlawful killing of one human being by another. Killing does not equate to murder A fetus is neither a human being nor is abortion unlawful.
    2
  410. Its sad to see people don't care about the children already out there unloved and alone.
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  411.  @jenamiahhjunee1153  I am. Which is why I'm pro-choice. So others don't suffer like I have.
    2
  412.  @makeamericagreatagain5081  1) Fetus. Not baby. Baby is post utero. 2) I'm not calling the fetus a bundle of nerves. I'm calling what you consider the "heartbeat" a bundle of nerves, because at 6 weeks, that's what it is. Yes, it starts to form complete limbs around 12-13 weeks. That's after 96% of abortions. If you're asking for my personal opinion, I think its immoral to have an abortion after the fetus is sentient, usually between 14-15 weeks, when the brainstem and central nervous system is essentially fully developed. I seriously think you should go back and reread my comment. Yes, life begins at conception. But science doesn't define murder. Law defines murder.
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  413.  @Gay.Muhammad  He didn't. That's either a lie he told you or a lie you made up. As far as being forced to pay child support, it was because he legally became the father when he signed the birth certificate.
    2
  414.  @nickstojic6995  No one kills a child in an abortion. A fetus is not a baby. It is not a child.
    2
  415. As if people never get pregnant while protected.
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  416.  @TheLegendOfRandy  Yikes. That soinds awful. Nope remember. All that matters is your alive, wven if you are suffering immensely. Is worth it 4emember?
    2
  417.  @pauloalex4899  Neither condoms nor birth control prevent pregnancy or STD's. They certainly help, but are not fool proof.
    2
  418.  @GreenEyedDoll123  A person is defined as someone with a conciousness. That is not from the moment of conception.
    2
  419. As if any person isn't selfish and that abortion isn't responsible.
    2
  420. If you don't want to get injured by a drunk driver, don't drive.
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  421.  @JohnSmith-px1fm  The youngest person ever to give birth was 5 years old. Children can give birth, and pro-life would force them to.
    2
  422.  @Pedro2NR  No, its not. And no one would say otherwise. You have exceptions to killing people, so don't mirally grandstanfld and say you don't.
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  423. Bet you wouldn't say that to a soldier.
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  424.  @travisjohnson7065  No, we don't call ourselves pro-abortion because the definition of that would imply that we push for every pregnancy to end in abortion, which is simply not true. You do know you can be both pro-choice and anti-abortion right?
    2
  425. Since when do humans have an issue with killing? You vegan?
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  426.  @lucymalone1006  The fetus always indirectly harms the mother, because it takes from her. This is why we push neonatal care. That statistic is a number you made up. Just because its a parasite, or has parasitic characteristics, doesn't inherently make it bad.
    2
  427.  @lucymalone1006  Doubt you would say that to a person who lost a loved one in childbirth or because of pregnancy.
    2
  428.  @lucymalone1006  The fact that you think women are just "designed" for children is actually disgusting. Not to mention offensive to those that cannot have children. Regardless of the "minor" percent of pregnancies, the fact that you would tell someone who lost someone they loved to childbirth of pregnancy (something that could have been rectified) makes you a despicable person. Women weren't "made" to have children. They are simply the sex that can bare offspring.
    2
  429. Wow...if only reality was that straightforward.
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  430.  @mkshort1  Sounds like someone's mad because they were wrong.
    2
  431.  @mkshort1  And the reason you won't defend your position is because you are wrong. So instead of being mature and just admitting it, you run like a coward. Typical of those who are pro-life. Just emotionally inflammatory liars who cower when actually presented with the facts.
    2
  432.  @mkshort1  Nope. Just pointing out an observation.
    2
  433.  @dustinellerbe4125  Then you aren't pro-life by definition. You are pro-choice. These two terms are antonyms.
    2
  434.  @SaiyanMonkeyDude  No it isn't. What would be running away is having a child you then proceed to neglect because you don't want to raise it. That would be irresponsible.
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  435.  @SaiyanMonkeyDude  No one murders anything. If you want to come across as honest, call it killing. Also no? Adoption is a potential answer to parenthood. Abortion is a potential answer to prgnancy.
    2
  436.  @me18122  Fetuses can't feel at the time of most abortions either. So what's the problem?
    2
  437.  @nickstojic6995  They very much contradict each other if you want to claim that life is sacred.
    2
  438. So you advocate against euthanasia, DNR's and slow codes? Doubt it. You against the death penalty? Military defense? Self defense?
    2
  439.  @invisiblemann8457  You do have that right. You can literally severe your parental rights. You just no longer get the benefits that come with being a parent.
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  440.  @invisiblemann8457  Because men get tax benefits from having a child they aren't caring for. You don't want to pay child support? Terminate your rights
    2
  441.  @t.bo.e2487  Nah. I enjoy healthy debate in my free time. So that is what I'll choose to do. I've met some friends in these comments, even if we disagree. Also no. I've left 1000+ comments on this channel's content. Not on this video. This video is not that old.
    2
  442.  @that_single_mama  So I fail to see how you cannot understand your ignorance with your original comment.
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  443.  @wildrose2748  Still waiting on that Supreme Court Decision. Oh wait...they've already spoken on it. Numerous times.
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  444.  @wildrose2748  And they've already said they aren't touching it. Face it, you will never get abortion overturned. Its enshrined in the Constitution under the right to liberty.
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  445.  @NightsLastWish  You may think of it as a far better option, but I respectfully disagree with you. I agree abortion should be used as a last resort after every other option is considered. But it is never convenient, and that rhetoric gets really old. Why do you just assume that the person will only ever abort? You jump to the worse possible outcome. It's stigmatizing as hell and it's not free. It's just another medical procedure. No, it's not murder. Please stop being dishonest.
    2
  446.  @rodpruitt8926  Tumors also have their own DNA. Can we not remove them?
    2
  447. Kinda like every human out there...you want what's best for you, and help others where you can.
    2
  448.  @aryana7092  Fetuses usually develop consciousness in the middle of the second trimester, when the brainstem connects to the neural network and the vrain begins to form. Usually by 16 weeks, the fetus is fully capable of thought. But yes. The average abortion is between 7 and 9 weeks.
    2
  449. I'm just shocked that they actually admitted how disgusting they are. They usually try and hide it.
    2
  450. "A baby will be adopted" Oh! Is that why there are 45,000 children waiting to be adopted at any given time? No. The waiting lists don't exist the way you think they do.
    2
  451. I disagree. I don't at all think the argument is about whether its human life. Everyone who's honest or intelligent knows it is. But human life has never been sacred. Morality is and always will be subjective. This debate should be a philosophical and moral one, not a scientific one. Your position will depend entirely on whether you place value on life or on sentience. Basically what's more important? Being human or being a person?
    2
  452.  @aoy1889  Yet you stated something that was factually untrue.
    2
  453. As if it was just super easy to abstain. Yes, that's a great idea. But the problem is some people have active libidos. Sex is not just for procreation. Also, love how you didn't mention how hard birth control is to obtain, or how many people cannot take it. Or how it can fail. Abortion is not birth control. Just because "life" begins at conception, doesn't mean anything. Its still your choice.
    2
  454.  @travisjohnson7065  As someone with a Master's in biology, they're technically correct, in the sense that "conception" is often confused with "implantation". Technically, the actual scientific term should be "life begins from the moment of implantation, but since these are often used interchangeably, we don't really correct it.
    2
  455. Personal opinion.
    2
  456. They can? I'm assuming your referring to child support?
    2
  457. Someone flunked biology.
    2
  458.  @travisjohnson7065  I mean, most pro-lifers are religious. I'm not saying you can't make non-religious arguments for pro-life. They're just hypocritical, baseless, or straight up lies. I've yet to see a pro-life secular argument go anywhere.
    2
  459.  @cleancountershot3941  If you find people gross for wanting bodily autonomy, then I find you gross for being a hypocrite who tells others life is so important, but does nothing to save lives. Sounds like a double standard.
    2
  460. No one is killing a baby. Baby means post utero. If you take no issue with animal slaughter, you should have no issue with a fetus that can't feel being terminated. No, its not murder.
    2
  461.  @thelastkushbendr7091  That isn't what consent means. Walking around naked doesn't give consent for people to touch you. The brain has to make that active decision.
    2
  462. You make it sound like...we aren't those things. I'm for the right to die. They should have the right to end their suffering if they really don't see themselves getting better.
    2
  463. Ever wonder why more minority fetuses are aborted? Its almost as if minoritys are statistically less well off than whites. Unless you're getting it, you aren't paying for it.
    2
  464. Because the definition of when human life begins is literally irrelevant. And even then, she was still wrong.
    2
  465. It was obvious to me that she was celebrating the ability to have access to an abortion, not the act itself.
    2
  466.  @ilya34prvur19  pro-life and pro-choice people seem to have a general lack of biology, since they like to use the "clump of cells" and "heartbeat and DNA" arguments.
    2
  467.  @ilya34prvur19  Yes. But most people understand this. What its not is murdering a person
    2
  468.  @ilya34prvur19  A human. But there's a difference between a human and a person.
    2
  469. No comparison. A fetus has no rights.
    2
  470.  @calebbenjamin1089  I call it a fetus because that is the correct term for it. I understand its a human, but it does not have rights. Its not. Its unlawful termination of a pregnancy.
    2
  471. As if that actually works when most of the population want sex.
    2
  472.  @matt1325  Sorry, my apologies.
    2
  473. Because statistics do not bare out for the pro-life side. Personally, statistics don't really mean anything in a moral debate.
    2
  474. A body that would not exist without the use of my uterus to which I have sole ownership of.
    2
  475. Honest answer: Nope.
    2
  476.  @zombie-v9i  As if you can't get pregnant on birth control or with condoms
    2
  477.  @zombie-v9i  I am well aware it lowers the risk. That doesn't change anything unless your viewpoint is only unprotected sex can't have abortions
    2
  478. You people love to be manipulative liars huh?
    2
  479.  @bgos4727  I just meant that Science holds no opinion on the abortion debate, as its a moral one. You can simply use science to argue each point.
    2
  480. Everyone is selfish.
    1
  481.  @PhillipReina  They don't care. Why should you? Focus on why people have abortions and maybe we can reduce them
    1
  482. Science doesn't support either side, because science doesn't affect morality. You can use science to defend a position on either side, but thats it. The whole problem is trying to fram the argument about life, when its not.
    1
  483.  @nickstojic6995  Nah sorry. She also has a right to remove a parasite from her. Not her fault it dies.
    1
  484.  @nickstojic6995  I'm not dehumanizing anything. A fetus is literally a parasite. The biological definition is: A parasite is an organism that lives on or in a host organism and gets its food from or at the expense of its host. And no, it doesn't have to attach onto a different species. There is literally a birth defect called "parasitic twinning." You're the one who thinks parasite is inherently a bad thing. Not me.
    1
  485. Your rights stop where anothers start. I don't have the right to ypur kidney. The fetus doesn't have a right to my uterus. They both have to be consensual.
    1
  486.  @gruntwithripit1386  It doesn't matter if the embryo "chose" it or not. You did not choose to get pregnant. That is an act that happens independently of choice. And just as with all consequences, you have to choose how you deal with it. Abortion is one of those choices.
    1
  487.  @gruntwithripit1386  You are responsible, and its also your responsibility to make a decision for yourself. Whether that is parenthood, adoption or abortion. Again, your partner and you didn't choose to get pregnant (unless of course you're actively trying). Whether you want to claim its irresponsible is your opinion. I think birthing a child and then neglecting or abusing it because you are unfit is irresponsible. I understand. I'm not angry. I simply have a different perspective.
    1
  488.  @AJ-lm5dl  As if that's what happens in abortions. Continue the dishonest narrative that most abortions are performed this way when they aren't.
    1
  489.  @theyautjawarrior6652  I think to shame someone for making a poor decision is unbeneifical and vile. It doesn't make them want to do better and pull their lives together. We should want to help those who make mistakes like this, not vitrify them.
    1
  490.  @moose7336  Because she used her trauma as a guilt tactic to spin a narrative. I'm all for her choice, but when you use it to make others feel bad about a position they hold, that's manipulative. She had her choice. A choice she wants to strip from others.
    1
  491.  @matt1325  That's just...straight up not true.
    1
  492.  @matt1325  No of course not. But to claim it has "a lot of potential" is stating something you just can't know. That's allm
    1
  493. Get a dictionary.
    1
  494. I wonder if you would say that to a soldier.
    1
  495.  @matt1325  Value is determined by sentience. Its not and will never be inherent.
    1
  496. Fetuses. Not babies.
    1
  497. As if it was just that simple.
    1
  498. Because its not a baby. And just because someone is pro-choice doesn't mean they wouldn't grieve over an emotional situation.
    1
  499. You do know that adoption is foster care right? They're the same thing?
    1
  500.  @JoeyB0b  What I meant by porential life is living and experiencing. Not simply being alive from a biological perspective.
    1
  501.  @JoeyB0b  Yes. Most would say there is a difference between living and being alive.
    1
  502.  @JoeyB0b  No, I would argue that from a philosophical perspective, there is absolutely a difference between being alive and living. But yes I would agree with the latter statement.
    1
  503.  @miaortiz8575  So is the mcdonalds you ate for lunch. And its hilarious hearing people talk about a heartbeat like a fetal heartbeat is anything conparable to say, a 24 week old. You can't even hear a fetal heartbeat.
    1
  504. Because its just that easy.
    1
  505. Subjective opinion.
    1
  506.  @aestheticlover9476  No, facts require evidence. The only reason you think abortion is wrong is based on your subjective viewpoints. Morality is simply never objective. It changes with time and culture.
    1
  507.  @aestheticlover9476  I think forced birth is wrong. I think people should have a choice over their own body. I don't think humans are inherently valuable, nor do I think life should be what matters.
    1
  508.  @aestheticlover9476  You can't "prove" abortion is wrong. First of all, you don't prove anything in science. You prove things in math. Secondly, science has no position on morality. It can be used to argue a position, but nothing more. My uterus? My choice.
    1
  509.  @aestheticlover9476  Sorry, but you aren't special just because your human and alive. Sorry if my being honest makes you think I require therapy. I actively do seek therapy because of the horrific abuse I suffered at the hands on an unfit mother that people like you told her she couldn't abort.
    1
  510.  @hettinga359  Which is also wrong, considering you can be pro-choice and anti abortion.
    1
  511. There is no "right to abotion". But there is the right to liberty, which means the right to bodily autonomy. It is not ethical to use a person's body without their consent, regardless of life involved. Abortion is not, and will never be convenient as is any medical procedure. The "right to life" is not absolute, nor is it above the right to liberty. This was the whole basis behind Roe vs Wade. I do not get to live at the expense of another, even if I will die without them. Adoption doesn't help the issues that comes with pregnancy. Adoption is for those that do not want to be a parent. Abortion is for those that do not want to be pregnant.
    1
  512.  @Lila17_  One, that doesn't make something murder and two, take a biology class. A heart is useless without a brain. Also, the heart does not develop first. The "fetal heartbeat" you're hearing is what will eventually become the pacemaker for the heart. And its entirely controlled by the mother.
    1
  513. Because plan B isn't an option available to everyone. You can no longer even get plan B where I live without a prescription. Also, because most people don't discover they are pregnant until after the time plan B can be used. A potential pregnancy is not usually the first thing on the mind of a rape victim...
    1
  514. That's such a flat out lie its laughable. No, most murders of pregnant women are not double homicide. They are charged with unlawful termination of a pregnancy.
    1
  515.  @MrStorage1  I don't personally believe that. I do not think you're special because your human, nor do I think you are entitled to be served by other creatures. Throw you out into the wilderness, and we'll see who seeves who
    1
  516. Nope. Please stop lying.
    1
  517.  @hettinga359  Fetus means unborn mammal.
    1
  518. Well then that just makes you a hypocrite.
    1
  519.  @istoleyoursugar2015  So what? That doesn't make someone pro-abortiom. You can also be pro-choice and anti-abortion.
    1
  520.  @escandon785  Life being ended doesn't make something murder. No, its not.
    1
  521.  @escandon785  You have rights because you pay taxes to a governmental body, not because your human. You're special because of the value you give yourself, as well as the people's lives you positively effect. Not because you're human. Yes, humans make humans. But in a biological sense, fetuses are any unborn mammals. That's all I was saying. Fetus doesn't necessarily equate to human. We just usually associate rhe term fetus with human.
    1
  522.  @escandon785  That wasn't what I meant. I am well aware that human pregnancy results in a human fetus. Also no. You have rights because a governmental body you pay taxes to establishes those rights for you. Go out into the wild, or to a country that has a different environment. See if you still have the same "rights". You won't. Because rights are not inherent. Nature doesn't give two shits about you. Also, your 9 year old little brother has those rights because they are granted to him by a government. No governmental body? No rights. You are an animal, so you aren't different. Your difference is a prefrontal cortex. You have more "rights" then them because you live in a human dominated society.
    1
  523.  @toxicsheep9203  Yes. Yes you are.
    1
  524.  @toxicsheep9203  Yes, I am well aware.
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  525.  @toxicsheep9203  YOU didn't, nor did I ever say you did.
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  526. You do not have the ultimate say in what happens with someone else's body, even if you helped put it there.
    1
  527. Its just not though.
    1
  528.  @lockedinSavo  Murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. So, no its not. Could you stop lying? Especially when its so easily debunked?
    1
  529. Abortion is taking responsibility. Most humans want sex. Its a natural extinct. And who says people don't use protection? Protection fails. No, abortion is not murder. So what if its selfish? Every human is selfish.
    1
  530.  @itsyoursalvationyolo  That isn't instinct, because it isn't something the brain does. And if it was naturally instinctive to produce life, then every sexual encounter would result in pregnancy. Fertilization happens independently from the mother. It is just a result of an action. Rape isn't comparable. Rape is violating another sentient human. You people love your strawman huh? I have no guilty conscious concerning abortion, nor am I in denial. I don't think killing a living thing is inherently wrong. I own a gun, I'm not a vegan, I support our military. Life isn't inherently valuable, and I don't think I'm special because I lucked out on the fusion of chomosome 2 during evoultion. Just because YOU think its wrong doesn't make YOU right. Your opinion is subjective.
    1
  531. If not everyone can have the choice, no one can have the choice. It is not up to you what someone else does with their body. You're what if questions don't matter, because they can easily be refuted.
    1
  532.  @berkozkan3922  You do realize you can use them right and still get pregnant?
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  533.  @berkozkan3922  Because they aren't 100% effective.
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  534.  @berkozkan3922  They aren't even 99% lmao. They're between 94-97%
    1
  535.  @wildrose2748  Gee...I wonder how people who naturally miscarry are gonna enjoy their jail cell?
    1
  536.  @wildrose2748  You may actually be a psychopath. You hope that women who miscarry break their necks? Or am I misunderstanding something?
    1
  537. A fetus has no rights. And even if it did, their rights would be equal. You simply don't get to live at another person's expense
    1
  538.  @philip1065  A fetus never had legal rights to begin with. The law does not grant those without a consciousness rights. You do not lose your right to bodily autonomy when you chose to have sex. That is absolutely ridiculous. Abortion is a way of taking responsibility, just like motherhood or adoption. You go to jail because you have violated someone else's right. That is not equivalent to abortion.
    1
  539.  @philip1065  That human has no right in the first place. Rights aren't inherent. They are granted to you by the government. And again, even if they were, they would be equal to the mother's. They are dealing with the consequences. They just aren't dealing with it the way you want them to. It is their body. Show me a fetus that grows without someone's uterus. It doesn't exist. It is not the woman's fault that the fetus cannot live outside her womb.
    1
  540.  @philip1065  The problem with that rhetoric is that a newborn and a toddler can surviver on their own without the use of another person's body. Sure, someone older would have to help them, but their body isn't being used against their consent. And I don't recall saying value is based on self-suficiancy. I just don't think value is inherent. If they are sentient, then they legally have a right to life. That right is still equal to a person's right to liberty, however. Human rights are given to you by a government. Unfortunately, under an anarchial system, you would have no rights. A fetuses "right to life" (which it doesn't have by the way even if I agree it should) to a mother's right to liberty. Just as even if I will die without it, I am not obligated to your kidney or blood. The rights are equal. I agree to abstain if you can. I agree with using protection. But these methods fail. You are describing late term and surgical abortions, which are performed because of medical necessity. This is not how 96% of abortions are performed. Most abortions are done via a pill and a D&C, just like a miscarriage.
    1
  541. Really hard to be secular and pro-life, since pro-life arguments are even weaker not coming from religion.
    1
  542. No
    1
  543.  @kva5751  We aren't at the top of the food chain. You have to only consume the flesh of other predators to be at the top of the food chain. In fact, we're in the same rung as pigs. They DO think and feel like us. They just may not communicate it the way we do. Humans are animals. Those who have no problem eating and wearing animals, but then have a problem with abortion are hypocrites. Sounds like someone just wants to justify their beliefs.
    1
  544. Because lets pretend that's actually what happens in most abortions.
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  545. It's just not though is it?
    1
  546.  @b.1162  It has no bodily autonomy until after birth, so that point is irrelevant.
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  547. Its just not, and to claim it is is a flat out lie. Typical of pro-lifers.
    1
  548.  @nickb1156  But that's still medically inaccurate to a degree. That body needs time to develep independently...by being dependant.
    1
  549.  @nickb1156  Not biologically they aren't. I'm dependant on no one but myself. I don't have to use another person to sustain me.
    1
  550.  @nickb1156  When did I say it wasn't human?
    1
  551.  @nickb1156  Because you tried to say that it was a distinct body than that of the mothers. And that is not medically true. The body only develops by the use of a uterus, and that requires consent.
    1
  552. And some of them are not available or can't be accessed by large sections of the population. If I want birth control, I have to pay out of pocket to see a medical professional, then pay for a prescription.
    1
  553.  @amayaaaaooo  Has nothing to being a victim. Its simply a matter of bodily autonomy.
    1
  554.  @amayaaaaooo  No, its nothing like that at all. Pregnancy is something that happens entirely seperate of the act of sex. Abortion is taking personal responsibility, just as parenthood or adoption is. Sex is for pleasure. Its only for pregnancy if you're actively trying to get pregnant.
    1
  555. Dogs and cats can be trained to protect anyone. They aren't protecting you because your pregnant. They're protecting you because they have a bond with you. No one murders a baby during an abortion. Stop lying and/or being willfully ignorant. If its not my body, then removing it from my uterus shouldn't be an issue. Oh wait...
    1
  556.  @theneutralguy2317  Most abortions are not performed surgically, so that argument is dishonest.
    1
  557.  @theneutralguy2317  Do you? Most abortions are done via a medication and a DNC. Surgical abortions are exclusively performed for late pregnancies on a deceased fetus, or late term abortions, exclusively done legally for medical necessity.
    1
  558.  @theneutralguy2317  Late term abortions are nearly exclusively done for medical reasons. Those, I support. A DNC removes fetal tissue yes. Its the same procedure performed for a miscarriage.
    1
  559.  @purplepurplepurple2162  Except its not.
    1
  560.  @nich5611  I love how pro-lifers have no idea what a fetal heartbeat is, so they conflate it with what a heartbeat of a fully formed person.
    1
  561. So was that Mcdonalds you had for lunch.
    1
  562.  @redbullgavemewings1553  You do realize that there are many of us who are pro-choice who think it should be your right to not be vaccinated right? I just think that if you make that choice, you should be held responsible should your actions harm another person.
    1
  563.  @redbullgavemewings1553  so you're trying to say if they're against a woman's choice to have an abortion, they should not get the choice to be unvaccinated?
    1
  564.  @redbullgavemewings1553  That's literally what I said. You have kind of a piss poor way of explaining things. I get what you're saying now, but your word choice is odd.
    1
  565.  @redbullgavemewings1553  No, I read it as written. The way you phrase things is just strange to me. There's just a far easier way to say what you meant is all.
    1
  566.  @travisjohnson7065  That...doesn't mean anything. Science is neutral on the subject of morality. It can only be used as a justification for one side or the other. There's not much evidentiary science you can use defending a pro-life position.
    1
  567.  @travisjohnson7065  Sure, but that's only relavent if you're morality thinks that the killing of a non-sentient fetus is immoral. I argue this is already a false start. We don't care about life. We never have. Why does this topic suddenly make us care about the life, as opposed to sentience? Well yes, because you can easily arguing killing innocent human beings isn't wrong. DNR'S, comas, slow codes, war....all of these scenarios could justify killing humans. The fact remains that you start the abortion debate on a false premise. It doesn't matter that its human. It doesn't matter that its alive. Those points are irrelevant.
    1
  568.  @shawnboahene5231  That actually tends to be pro-life that does that. Not pro-choice.
    1
  569. As if condoms are the saving grace to pregnancy. Stop being selfish and donate all the organs you don't currently need.
    1
  570.  @gokcelestial  No, they shouldn't. And no one has the right to stop her. She may be looked at negatively, but she ultimately gets that choice.
    1
  571.  @oscareguia3971  Outright lie. While it is true that babies are usually adopted out the quickest, adoption centers have nursery's for a reason.
    1
  572.  @frog6468  That's only true when it comes to private adoptions, which is a legal process that has to be paid for. There is no such luck for those that give their infants to the state.
    1
  573.  @revelesrichard9967  Imagine pretending to know that because someone has one stance, you know all of their opinions. First off, I am not pro-abortion. That implies I think every pregnancy should be aborted, and I don't. Secondly, I absolutely stand with those who do not want the vaccine. I got vaccinated, but if you don't want to, you should have that choice. As far as for many people being for vaccines, that is for the safety of the public as a whole. You are a risk to people when you aren't vaccinated moreso than you would be if you were. But that should be your decision.
    1
  574.  @nickstojic6995  You kind of do.
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  575.  @nickstojic6995  No, you need help.
    1
  576.  @ILovePink-x1v  I enjoy debate lol
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  577.  @ILovePink-x1v  I will keep up the fight!
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  578. No, it infact isn't.
    1
  579.  @grantlangkamp1909  I never said it wasn't life.
    1
  580.  @grantlangkamp1909  Yep. Because abortion has an established definition. Its a legal term. Not all killing is murder.
    1
  581.  @grantlangkamp1909  Yes. But its not murder.
    1
  582.  @grantlangkamp1909  No, I didn't. Murder is explicitly a legal term. Not all killing is murder.
    1
  583.  @grantlangkamp1909  No. They're charged with unlawful termination of a pregnancy. In order for a double homicide charge to actually be filed, you have to meet very specific criteria. Maybe try doing some research?
    1
  584.  @grantlangkamp1909  Because it's not. Murder has a definition that abortion does not fall under.
    1
  585.  @grantlangkamp1909  Murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of one human being by another. Abortion is neither unlawful, nor is a fetus recognized as a human by law, since it is not a person.
    1
  586. @Humanity Galatica Sure, but words have an established definition at points in time. And as of now, it cannot be changed.
    1
  587. @Humanity Galatica But it hasn't. As of right now, keep legality and morality seperate
    1
  588. @Humanity Galatica Morality is subjective.
    1
  589. Its the acess to the medical procedure, not the procedure itself. I mean, people love meat. That's a termination of life.
    1
  590.  @stargazer1405  So? Humans aren't special.
    1
  591.  @BeastGotClipped  No they aren't. Humans are animals. Just animals with a developed pre frontal cortex.
    1
  592.  @nickstojic6995  First off, humans are not the top of the food chain. Scientifically speaking, we are near the middle with pigs. In order to be at the top of a trophic level, an animal must only consume the flesh of other predators. Secondly, the only reason we can do that is because we got lucky on the fusion of chomosome 2 that allowed us to develop a prefrontal cortex. If you think that makes you special, fine. But in all honesty, you're just a higher functioning animal. I think we are special. Just not above any other sentient animal.
    1
  593.  @BeastGotClipped  I don't think you're any more special than any other animal.
    1
  594.  @BeastGotClipped  I made it very clear that while I think humans are special, I do not think we are on a pedastal. I made that very clear. So I fail to see any hypocrisy.
    1
  595.  @BeastGotClipped  In which case, nothing should be on a pedastal. Because every animal is special in their own way. You are special. Just not any more special than your dog. In my opinion.
    1
  596.  @BeastGotClipped  Humans think differently only because we got lucky. I'm sorry, but that doesn't make you any more special than any other evolved species. You are just special. No more and no less. There are species of animals who are more advanced than we are in certain aspects. It doesn't have to stop. I never said it did. But if you're going to make the argument that killing a non-sentient fetus that feels nothing is worse than slitting a lambs throat open and watching it struggle and bleed to death when it can feel the way you do, I'd say you're the hypocrite here. If you have a problem with abortion, you should have a problem with meat.
    1
  597.  @BeastGotClipped  No, anatomy decides when a fetus can feel pain. It doesn't matter if its human. Being human is irrelevant. The world doesn't work that way. I would love to live in a world where everyone was responsible for their children. But they aren't. And telling people to "control their desires" not only doesn't help, but is harmful in its own right. I'm all for abstinence if you can. I think we need to make protection more available and teach about safe sex. But abortion is still a medical procedure. And like all others, needs to be carefully considered.
    1
  598.  @BeastGotClipped  Yep. I'm fine with abortion, DNR's, slow codes and I'm pro gun. The why matters.
    1
  599. Abortion is taking responsibility. What is not taking responsibility is realizing you are an unfit parent and then letting a sentient child suffer at your hands. Abortion is never easy. Pull your head out of your ass.
    1
  600.  @ILovePink-x1v  I wouldn't say fight. I want to debunk misinformation and try to help people as much as possible. Sometimes, however, that leads to fighting.
    1
  601.  @sock7481  I actually am proud to say I have changed people's opinions. What I choose to do with my time is up to me. Besides, healthy debate and discourse is something I enjoy.
    1
  602. Ultimately, the choice is up to the one who's body is being used by another.
    1
  603. Because consent to sex isn't consent to pregnancy. If you get into a car and have an accident, should you not be allowed treatment because you knew you could have an accident? No. If you hit someone, are you responsible to give them your blood? No. Nothing gets access to your body without your consent. Period. Abstinence does not work for everyone. People's libido's are different. Sex is done mostly for pleasure. In some cases, its done to reproduce. I'm sorry that you are so antiquated, but you need to come back to reality.
    1
  604.  @hadi8699  Please take a biology class. For the love of everything. You are stretching the truth so far, its sad.
    1
  605.  @JonBlack413  Nah. She has the ultimate authority. Its her body. Also, don't want to pay child support? Petition the court and terminate your parental rights.
    1
  606.  @GravityFailure  I'm not making excuses. Simply stating facts. I cannot get contraception without a prescription, and where I live, you're fucked if you have no medical insurance. The problem is its prone to human error. People forget their pill, patch shot whatever. And there are millions of people (like myself) who cannot take birth control.
    1
  607. Should open a dictionary sometime.
    1
  608. Then so do the mothers. So much for equal rights.
    1
  609.  @bigred6978  Its not murder because it does not fit the definition of murder. Murder is a legal term. Killing is the philosophical term
    1
  610. As if abortion isn't taking responsibility.
    1
  611.  @hayleecaldwell1030  Considering in theory, one doesn't need a heart if something else could adequately pump blood to other organs, I have never understood why people put so much importance on a heartbeat. No one said it isn't life. Over 50% of fertilized embryo's will never implant.
    1
  612. Bodily autonomy is a right, an abortion is not murder. The blatent lies that pro lifers spew is ridiculous.
    1
  613. Hope you enjoy your jail cell when you have a miscarriage then. Also, human life is not inherently valuable. We're arguably one of the most destructive and vile forces on the planet.
    1
  614. Since when is being selfish inherently a bad thing?
    1
  615. That's not what that word means
    1
  616.  @shawnboahene5231  Science does not say the fetus is a person at the time of most abortion. Human does not equal person. Human deals with biology. Personhood deals with philosophy.
    1
  617.  @Gaby-ep9cc  Life begins for the fetus ay implantation of the fertilized egg. But being alive doesn't make someone a person. Sentience makes someone a person. Science tells you what your biological sex is, but has nothing to do with gender or gender identity. That's a culture thing. So no, no one is trying to change Science.
    1
  618. Pick up a dictionary.
    1
  619. Ethics and morality are subjective.
    1
  620. Adoption isn't always an option. Stop pretending it is. Glad you weren't traumatized by that experience and had people that supported you. Not everyone is that lucky.
    1
  621.  @yup6730  No, they hit the nail right on the head. If you want to claim its independent and seperate, why can't it be removed from the uterus? Because its not independent or seperate.
    1
  622.  @Tou-ZVGC  Abortion isn't murder. Stop being dishonest to push a narrative.
    1
  623.  @hettinga359  If so many of you are trying, why do we have such a huge issue with the overpopulation of foster care? Why are 20,000 of them a year being booted with nothing?
    1
  624.  @ttfresh  You don't have a duty to the unborn if you don't consent to it being there in the first place.
    1
  625. There aren't really any facts supporting either side, because moral debates are subjective. Facts can just be used to present a side.
    1
  626.  @allegravet  Morality is and always will be subjective. Ever heard of the bystander effect? People turn up their nose at abuse all the time. Yet you are arguing with that government and law.
    1
  627. And...how is that an excuse?
    1
  628. As if every human on the planet isn't selfish in most regards.
    1
  629.  @TheBlackSun21  He doesn't have to pay. He can terminate his rights amd legally no longer be a parent.
    1
  630.  @aaralyn6710  Yes you can. Racism is being prejudiced of someone based on their race, regardless of what race it is.
    1
  631.  @Ichangedmyname1221  It may not be for you. I hope that you are sexually compatable with anyone you choose to marry. And no. That's like saying me choosing to drive means I'm making the choice to be hit by a drunk driver. You don't choose to get pregnant. Its a possible effect of an action.
    1
  632.  @Ichangedmyname1221  Many people go out on drives just for pleasure. You don't need to drive in order to survive, especially not in today's technology age. You're completely strawmanning the argument. It doesn't matter. The argument is the same. Abortion is taking responsibility.
    1
  633. I think anyone that would look an 11-year old victim in the face and tell her "sucks to be her you're keeping that fetus" is vile.
    1
  634. For the record, you don't "prove" things in science. You "prove" things in Math.
    1
  635. The father has options. He can go to court and terminate his rights if he doesn't want to pay for the child.
    1
  636. Yes it would. Making abortion illegal would literally throw you in jail for your bodily autonomy. How does that not take away your rights?
    1
  637. And its not.
    1
  638.  @matt1325  Then please, do not have children. Also, stop pushing th false narrative that fetuses are dismembered during most abortions. That is simply not the case.
    1
  639. Nope. And also, that fetus isn't sentient and is incapable of caring whether it lives or dies.
    1
  640.  @ChrisMacal  I mean...she can. There's literally nothing stopping her.
    1
  641.  @ChrisMacal  Depends on who your asking.
    1
  642.  @mathildeyoung1823  So? So do DNR's and slow codes. Should we not have them?
    1
  643. No, its not. Murder is a legal term. And it is a medical procedure. You're not killing anything near a small child. And would you please do some basic research on how most abortions are performed? Because they aren't done surgically. Ending life doesn't make something murder. For once, stop lying.
    1
  644.  @lasibel  No one uses abortion as a contraceptive. But please keep showing how dishonest you are.
    1
  645.  @lasibel  That is not at all what it means. Contraception literally prevents fertilization. Regardless of the reason, all abortions occur because "the parents want it". Whether that be rape, medical issues, or simply not wanting it, you need consent to have an abortion.
    1
  646.  @lasibel  Abstinence has continuously been proven ineffective for education. Mosg People have a desire to have sex. We do it for pleasure.
    1
  647.  @KatOnline  I also never said it wasn't killing. It is. But again, that isn't the point. I have no issue with suicide. I actually think its quite despicable to make someone who is unhappy live when they don't want to, which is why I support euthanasia. But just like abortion, I certainly don't think it should be an impulsive split second decision, and is certainly something to reach out about. Being alive doesn't matter in the context to of the abortion debate. Please, don't deliberately take my words out of context.
    1
  648.  @KatOnline  Morality has always been and will always be subjective. Human beings cannot live without hurting others. In your own life, you have to come first. I don't think immense suffering is superior to death, and I think that reasoning comes from a place of privilege. Frankly, its ignorant and condescending. Who's life did you save when that mother abuses her child to death? Or neglects it to death? Whose life did you save when that child is robbed of a future when it can actually experience? You may claim to care, but you're actually quite ignorant and uncaring.
    1
  649.  @nickstojic6995  No, I would tend to say that those who are pro-life actually don't believe that, because they guilt and manipulate people into giving birth and then abandon that child into an abusive household. I fail to see the "selflessness" in that, and tend to see pro-life people only interested in moral grandstanding. We aren't discussing children. We are discussing fetuses. No, I actually don't. And I have plenty of other comments to back that up. I am well aware that there are many people who are severely abused and neglected who are happy to be born. If anything, I envy these types of people. They will live a life full of immense suffering. That is not debateable. What is debateable is that some actually use that as a strength to continue to be positive. That's an amazing thing. My issue stems from the general thought that death is worse than suffering, because it ignores those of us who aren't that strong. What you think honestly doesn't matter. Statistics do not agree with you. Those born to parents who did not want them, or lack the capacity to care for them, are abused and neglected more frequently. Does that always happen? No, of course not. But that is a minority.
    1
  650.  @KatOnline  That's not thinking logically. Thats moral grandstanding. Isn't forcing someone to stay alive for your happiness selfish as well? Everyone should have the right to their body. Everyone should have a right to die when they see fit. You just make yourself out to be a hypocrite, to be honest.
    1
  651.  @KatOnline  Why is it only physical pain? Wouldn't you say that mental pain could be just as delibitating?
    1
  652.  @nickstojic6995  And as far as children born, I agree. I do not agree during the actual pregnancy when you do not consent to the fetus using your uterus and it is not sentient. That's where "value" should be placed. Because banning abortions does not make lives better. Ideally, abortions would not be necessary. But we do not live in an ideal world. I'm all for improving on how to make those lives better. But banning abortion is not the answer. If more people strive for opening resources and opportunities to make lives better, then hopefully, we will see the number of abortions go down. Unfortunately, its typically pro-lifers who shoot themselves in the foot.
    1
  653.  @KatOnline  Again, that's a very ignorant way of thinking. They don't go for euthanasia because it isn't an option. So they inact suicide. Not all damage to the mind or body can ever be fixed. I'm sorry that happened to your friend, but that happened because people do not support the right to euthanasia. We do it for our pets when they are no longer happy. Why not grant that to humans as well?
    1
  654.  @KatOnline  I'm sorry that you feel it's gotten hostile, and if that's the impression I gave, I apologize. I want to clarify that I understand your position, and do not think you, as a person, are ignorant or condescending, even if I feel some of you positions are. I understand being emotionally sensitive. I'm the same way. I understand that just looking at the big picture is disturbing. But I think if you talked to more people who have been destroyed by unfit parents and who have suffered all their life, you may just get a better image of both sides.
    1
  655. Because it is. Saving it from torment and abuse. You may think death is worse, but that's probably because you had people care for you.
    1
  656.  @SlLENCE  I have no issue with suicide. I think people should have the right to die if they are truly unhappy.
    1
  657.  @SlLENCE  I would certainly sit down and listen to them. I would give them a shoulder to cry on, and try to help them see a bright side to their situation. I would never encourage suicide. I just think it occurs when pain outweighs pain management, and if people are really suffering and feel death is their release, they should be entitled to make that decision.
    1
  658. Its just not though.
    1
  659.  @hettinga359  That would make you a hypocrite then.
    1
  660.  @msharp6887  No, because the fetus doesn't have bodily autonomy because it has no rights as it is not a person. Smart Pro-choicers do not deny science. Being "human" and "alive" is irrelevant.
    1
  661.  @msharp6887  Any argument pertaining to morality can never be objective, because morality is not objective. I argue from personhood because I remain morally consistent. I have no problem with euthanasia, DNR's and slow codes. I don't take issue with unplugging life support. Science is neutral on the subject of abortion. You just use it to argue a point. A fetus can be alive and abortion can still be moral, so I fail to see a point. Then we fundamentally disagree, as I do not think human life is inherently valuable, nor do I think we're special because we are human. We're apes that got lucky. I'm just against the death penalty for practical reasons as opposed to moral ones.
    1
  662. And that body does not get to use mine to live anymore than I get access to your kidney because I'm dying of renal failure. So what if its human life? You're not special for being human.
    1
  663. @Humanity Galatica Gonna have to be more specific.
    1
  664. @Humanity Galatica Correct.
    1
  665.  @hettinga359  If mercy killings aren't allowed, why are more and more states legalizing assisted suicide?
    1
  666. Sucks that not only isn't it readily available in a lot of places, many women can't use it.
    1
  667. @Humanity Galatica If that's your opinion.
    1
  668. ...Yes it is. America is just the shortened form. If you live in the United States, you live in America.
    1
  669. That's not what that word means.
    1
  670.  Wara-Chi  Nope. They're right.
    1
  671.  Wara-Chi  I know. You're the one who disagreed with abortion. Did you misunderstand the op?
    1
  672. Its almost like its the conservative pro-life side that fights against birth control and safe sexual education in schools...the absolute irony.
    1
  673.  @RimZeime  Those are statistics you just made up. In fact, the country with the higest abortion rate is Russia. The US isn't even in the top 10. I know people outside the US have casual sex, and they also have abortions. So I fail to see how its just an American problem.
    1
  674. Nope. I'm pro-choice and while I think you should get vaxxed, I absolutely don't agree with mandates.
    1
  675.  @ljb8157  You're wrong.
    1
  676. @Oliver Lewis Well, no. They aren't justified in the usage of the term murder, because abortion is not unlawful. Your analogy makes no sense. A predicition based on evidence is not the same as twisting the definition of a word to suit a narrative.
    1
  677.  @williamlougheed  Abortion isn't murder for one thing, but I have yet to find anyone that thinks that all types of killing humans is wrong. Would you shoot a person who broke into your house to protect yourself? Are you for the death penalty? By the way, that DNA in that tumor is human DNA if the tumor is in a human. This issue isn't black and white.
    1
  678.  @williamlougheed  And here comes the lies. Murder is the unlawful killing of one human being by another. Not only does the law not recognize a fetus as a human being (because it lacks sentience) abortion is not unlawful. Its not an opinion. Its a fact.
    1
  679.  @williamlougheed  No, the definition of a fetus is any unborn mammal. If a person in a coma is braindead and lacks senteince then yes. They absolutely can be removed from life support. You're aware of this right? When did I ever say it wasn't human? It is. That literally doesn't matter. That's because tubes and clamps are performed on late term abortions. 97% of abortions take place before the end of the first trimester, and are done via a pill and a D&C. These fetuses cannot feel and are not aware, because they have no nerve activity yet. If you're going to outright lie to push a narrative, do the basic amount of research.
    1
  680.  @williamlougheed  I never said it wasn't human. It is. It doesn't matter if its human or not. Once again, never said sentience determines if its human or not. Sentience is only where we place value on something. Your not special because your human. Your special because you have the ability to experience and interpret the world. And why won't they recover? Right. Because they don't have a functioning brain. Kinda like a fetus at the time of most abortions. You lied about the definition of murder. You lied about what a fetus is. You lied about how abortions are performed. You also failed to mention that late term abortions are performed exclusively for medical reasons. No, I don't. I support a woman's right to choose until such time as the fetus is viable and sentient.
    1
  681. So you're a hypocrite.
    1
  682.  @tc5922  No, pro-life has one definition. And that definition means that I don't have bodily autonomy and don't get to die on my terms. That is vile. Please do some research on what the "movement" wants outside of the abortion debate.
    1
  683.  @tc5922  Believing in something doesn't change fact. That's fallacious at best. You do not get to change the definition of a word in order to fit your narrative. That is entirely dishonest. If you are pro-life, you are against abortion. Regardless of circumstance. Stop being ashamed to call yourself pro-choice.
    1
  684.  @tc5922  Then, in my opinion, you should be subjected to forced organ and blood donation, since you do believe life should be above bodily autonomy. You also are vile for being content in watching people suffer at cruel diseases and injuries without the option to have the ability to end that suffering. You do not see mothers as victims. You wish to restrict their rights to their body. Are you a vegan by any chance? Or is human life the only life you claim to care about?
    1
  685.  @travisjohnson7065  Yeah? So does a slow code.
    1
  686. Because we aren't dishonest in saying that its killing children. Because it doesn't. A fetus is not a child and has less sentience than that Mcdonalds you had for lunch.
    1
  687. You do know planned parenthood does more than just abortions right?
    1
  688.  @dislikebutton4486  A fetus doesn't have rights, because it isn't a person. Even if its human.
    1
  689.  @AJ-lm5dl  Nope. Human is a species. Person is the act of having consciousness.
    1
  690. That is such a flat out lie. While ultrasounds were not widely used in clincs until after Roe vs Wade, they were used well before, the first in the US being used in 1961. And ultrasounds were widely used only within a few years of Roe vs Wade, in the late 1970's. Also, you still have yet to overturn it, even with all technology we have in 2022. But you seem to be pro-life. So of course you'd be a manipulative liar.
    1
  691.  @livebrain  If you really think that everyone who suffers is responsible for it themselves, you're fucked up.
    1
  692. @UC09LHwVJGOmYixy9Pyt4xXw Yes. Please by all means pay for me to see a OBGYN to get birth control, since it is only available via prescription where I live. While your at it, cure my diseases that prevent me from taking it. 100% agree. If you sleep around, you increase your risk of pregnancy. Also agree. However, birth control isn't an option available to everyone. Yes, you take the risk of getting pregnant. That doesn't then prevent you from having access to a medical procedure to remove the pregnancy. No, I don't. I'm asexual with no desire to have sex. That being said, I believe in bodily autonomy. So I stand up for those rights
    1
  693. They've done it. Twice.
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  694. Do you know how often pregnancies occur even WITH protection? The only ones not being mature are those that think they can dictate others choices.
    1
  695. Glad to know you don't support bodily autonomy and think rape victims should be forced to give birth. Not to mention that mothers should die for the chance to give birth. Stand up people you are.
    1
  696.  @Stella-wm8zf  Glad to know you're a willfully ignorant liar who neither knows what murder is and who still uses the tired argument of a fetus being a human being, which implies sentience and consciousness. We currently don't take care of the children already born, and you just want to keep adding to it. Ridiculous.
    1
  697. Can you people not be dishonest for like...10 minutes? Those are not how the majority of abortions are performed and you know that. Surgical abortions are done only during late stages or because of medical complications.
    1
  698. Hope you're vegan then, since that McDonald's you had for lunch was far more sentient than that aborted fetus.
    1
  699.  @lol-kn6bn  As if abortion isn't taking responsibility. The fact that you are fine with allowing children to suffer just for the POTENTIAL to have some kind of happiness is sickening. You are supporting child abuse. You're basically saying life is worth suffering. You only speak from your experience. My mother sold me to men for drug money and threw me down two flights of stairs, breaking my spine and fracturing my skull. I can never live a normal adult life because of that. I wish I had been aborted.
    1
  700. Pretty much everyone is pro-choice, because you truly are a nasty person if you're actually pro-life
    1
  701.  @thelastkushbendr7091  Abortions are not irresponsible. Also 2% is thousands of people. Continue to undermine them.
    1
  702.  @thelastkushbendr7091  I can agree on some level. Yes, unwanted pregnancy is irresponsible. So is keeping said unwanted pregnancy.
    1
  703. You mean pro life.
    1
  704.  @montramedia  You are aware that plan b is not even available everywhere right? And you also realize that nearly all abortions are done via a medication right?
    1
  705.  @montramedia  Flat out lie. Where I live, you can no longer get plan b OTC. Its prescription only. Why its like that, I don't know. But in some places, plan B is no longer accessible without a prescription.
    1
  706.  @montramedia  How about not spread lies that plan B is an option for everyone to take and that bodily autonomy is a human right? That would be helpful.
    1
  707.  @hettinga359  Makes no difference. If life is so much more valuable than bodily autonomy, why shouldn't we force organ and blood donation? You're avoiding the question because you're caught. Also, consent to sex is not conset to pregnancy
    1
  708. Imagine not knowing how stem cells are actually used. Maybe...try taking a biology class?
    1
  709.  @ronans9680  If we're speaking legally, no. No they don't. They can. Doesn't mean they will. You are making that decision for them without their imput, so why can't I? Yes. Yes it is. If the fetus doesn't care, why do you?
    1
  710.  @alitabaker99  So you don't have a response for being wrong.
    1
  711.  @alitabaker99  Then you'd still be incorrect. Do you not understand the difference between being a human and a human being?
    1
  712. Then he has that avenue he can take.
    1
  713.  @immortalspartan4421  Because a fetus isn't a person. And you don't have the right to live at the expense of someone else. That's why we don't force blood or organ donations
    1
  714.  @immortalspartan4421  Speaking in terms of a pregnant person's fetus, it is always human. It is human from implantation.
    1
  715.  @robloxmaverick77  Technically, the scientific concensus is that life begins at implantation. Considering more than half of fertilized eggs will never implant.
    1
  716. You want to know what a miscarriage is called? A self-abortion. You want to know the only way to treat an ectopic pregnancy? An abortion.
    1
  717.  @searchingforwilberforcefl4533  And another medical term for a miscarriage is a self abortion, where the body aborts the fetus for no reason. Argue with facts if you want. It doesn't change them. If you wanted to make abortion a crime, you would literally have to jail anyone who also had a miscarriage to prove they didn't cause their own abortion. See the problem? No they aren't that different. Abortion is the termination of a fetus, whether it be by an outside influence or the body itself. Stop acting like abortion is some taboo thing. Its really just not.
    1
  718.  @nickstojic6995  Nope. I quite like most members of the human species. Its why I value their rights. I however, don't believe humans are inherently valuable. Because we're not. Nor is that my argument for abortion.
    1
  719.  @hettinga359  Because its not a baby, and its not entitled to my uterus to live, anymore than I am entitled to your kidney when I am dying from renal failure. You come first in your own life.
    1
  720. Sorry that your dictatorship views bodily autonomy as wrong. Oh also, I know plenty of Phillipinos who are pro-choice.
    1
  721.  @hettinga359  How was I hostile? I'm truly sorr for the lack of human rights.
    1
  722.  @hettinga359  I apologized because I genuinely feel sorry that you and the OC have been brainwashed into thinking you don't deserve the have bodily autonomy. It's empathy
    1
  723. Adoption isn't always an option, nor does it do anything for the issue. And do you suddenly not waive that right if you get pregnant using protection? You always have the right to your own body.
    1
  724.  @thelastkushbendr7091  No, you didn't. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. Abortion is as much taking accountability as motherhood or adoption.
    1
  725. Get a dictionary. Your opinion of evil is subjective.
    1
  726. No he's not, and he should be part of the conversation, even if he doesn't have the ultimate decision.
    1
  727. You can opt out of child support. Terminate your paternal rights.
    1
  728.  @maryangelica5319  While that may technically be true, that is certainly how we use the word in discussions. Rarely is language that simple.
    1
  729.  @Pedro2NR  I would love evidence of this since my mother's church kicked her out while pregnant with me because she got pregnant out of wedlock. You may live in an area where churches may be willing to help on some level, but that is certainly not universal.
    1
  730. We do not have sex to procreate. That is simply not the case anymore. We are not in any danger of becoming extinct as a species. An effect of sex is potentially pregnancy. But its not the only thing sex is for. How is abortion an easy way out? Its not.
    1
  731.  @jya7284  Did you know that nearly 50% of abortions are performed on people who did use protection? It's not nearly as fool proof as you think. Its never an easy way out. You're judged by people and abortions are not covered by any insurance and must be paid out of pocket. Please explain how the act of abortion is easy. That is literally no one's mindset when having an abortion.
    1
  732.  @jya7284  That just isn't true. Sure, they don't want a child, but its almost always because they do not have the stability to care for it. Who's dropping thousands of dollars on abortions just because fuck it? There are probably people out there that would abort just to abort. But that is such an insignificant portion.
    1
  733. No honest person says it isn't alive. Being alive just doesn't matter.
    1
  734. Like what? Pro-life arguments are dismantled easily.
    1
  735. Its not though is it?
    1
  736.  @sarahjoellestephens  Its not. Try reading a dictionary. You may learn something.
    1
  737. No, they were just factually correct. Abortion is not murder.
    1
  738.  @hzechgamez  If it wasn't illegal for me to do so and I had a guarenteed method of doing it, I probably would. But I don't, and I do go through phases where perhaps life isn't so bad.
    1
  739.  @travisjohnson7065  You say that as if you aren't treated incredibly poorly for trying to end your life. We don't always get the option to end our lives.
    1
  740.  @travisjohnson7065  Everyone. You do realize it's a crime to commit suicide in most states? Have you seen how people are treated when they're suicide attempts fail? You have 0 knowledge of how awful those that attempt suicide and fail are treated
    1
  741.  @travisjohnson7065  We don't chose to continue living. We're forced to continue to live based on arbitrary rules. The fact still remains that abortion is a right a woman has, no matter how much you wish she didn't. Until you have the technology for an embryo to live without using someone else, it will remain a right. When you lack sentience, you lack personhood.
    1
  742.  @travisjohnson7065  Because we don't have a choice. Being punished for attempting to die takes away thst choice. Slaves were sentient people and slavery was never a right. The two are not comparable.
    1
  743.  @sharkas9965  I think she meant saying "scientifically" followed by "I believe" isn't how it works. Not that life doesn't start from conception.
    1
  744. Show me a fetus that has a body without the use of a person's uterus. It doesn't exist. "Fetus" is the accurate term for any in utero mammal. "Baby" is post utero. Calling an unborn fetus a baby is factually wrong for anything other than a colloquial conversation. I'm sorry that the fact that you aren't special and have no inherent value upsets you so much.
    1
  745.  @prestonpersonal  No, you're trying to twist the truth into a narrative that paints people who call something for what it is lacking humanity. And that's just dishonest. No, you're pro "making people do with their bodies what I think should be done and I'll make them feel awful if they don't abide by my morality.
    1
  746. Congratulations on being lucky.
    1
  747. No.
    1
  748.  @byanzilski5504  No. No its not
    1
  749. A fetus has no rights, if we're being 100% honest. And even if it did, its rights would be equal to that of the mother. You do not get to live at someone else's expense.
    1
  750. And you're a liar. Congrats.
    1
  751.  @rorothegoatboat  The mother controls everything the fetus does through the placenta until the fetus is able to develop the brainstem and the neural network functions. This is long after most abortions. Nothing has the right to use someone else for its development without explicit consent. We have a word for that. Parasite. Until you can show me a fetus that develops without the use of a living person's uterus, you have no case.
    1
  752.  @lolashay219  How about make it readily availave to everyone?
    1
  753. No, its not
    1
  754. You know a way to deal with the problem of an unwanted pregnancy? Abortion.
    1
  755. Pro-life never has arguments.
    1
  756. They could. However, that's dependent on a lot of factors.
    1
  757. Private adoptions are legal processes that many people do not have the money for. The only other option is a state adoption, which is foster care.
    1
  758.  @allegravet  Do you like...know what the military does for a living? Damn sure you wouldn't open your mouth to them.
    1
  759. Nah
    1
  760. Because people would be upset at an all pro-choice panel, considering no rational medical professional would be pro-life.
    1
  761.  @nanasenoah8139  You people really love being stupidly ignorant don't you? No, you aren't either anti-abortion or pro-abortion. You're either pro-life or pro-choice. These terms don't just apply to abortion. Abstinence does not work. Most are programmed to want sex. Birth control fails, is not readily available to some, and can't be taken by some. Adoption is not always an option either. It is my body. Show me a fetus that reaches the stage of "20 toes and 2 hearts" without the use of someone else's organ. Doesn't exist. If you're really so "its not her body", then you should force organ and blood donation. After all, life comes before bodily autonomy.
    1
  762. Someone doesn't understand the difference between freedom and entitlement. Freedom comes on both sides.
    1
  763.  @jagvilldo4203  You don't choose pregnancy. The brain does not after sex be like "yep, we're going to implant that egg". Its a potential result of an action. And imagine...people doing things regardless of leagality. You know sex is still forced right?
    1
  764.  @temarithebadass9276  You won't have to pay child support if you terminate your parental rights.
    1
  765. That's still not what murder means.
    1
  766. Amazing. Its almost as if this subject is more complicated.
    1
  767.  @aoy1889  You know what else is living and developing? That Mcdonald's burger you ate at lunch that had a painful death it was completely aware of, unlike a fetus. If the issue behind abortion is life, then stay consistant.
    1
  768.  @aoy1889  Point still stands.
    1
  769.  @aoy1889  I never even brought up pronouns.
    1
  770.  @aoy1889  That is literally your whole argument
    1
  771.  @aoy1889  That's literally your entire position.
    1
  772.  @hettinga359  Which they don't even have.
    1
  773.  @vision-dz6cm  So what if its not human? Why are you special just because your human? We don't have sex to just procreate. So are you vegan? Because cows, sheep and pigs are domesticated animals, and have sentience unlike that 10 week old fetus.
    1
  774.  @sharkas9965  Simply nothing more than correcting some misinformation is all.
    1
  775.  @sharkas9965  Your reply stated that "fetus" was an incorrect term to use. I just said that "fetus" would be the medically accurate term for any human in utero passed 10 weeks. I also then chimed in with saying that if you want an inaccurate term, it would be "baby", a word a lot of pro-life people like to use when discussing abortion. My comment is perfectly relavant. Sounds like you're just getting upset because it seems we disagree.
    1
  776. As if nearly 30% of abortions are done on people who were using contraception.
    1
  777. Projection at its finest. Also, no one is pro-death.
    1
  778. Late term abortions are only performed legally for medical necessity. It is against federal law for tax dollars to fund abortions.
    1
  779.  @Kaylamnm  I never claimed to.
    1
  780.  @travisjohnson7065  Once again, not my problem the fetus can't live outside my uterus.
    1
  781. Yes...so convenient and easy to be judged for a medical procedure that you have to pay out of pocket as if abortion isn't taking responsibility.
    1
  782. Its just not though.
    1
  783.  @familyguy8184  Its not. Like, that's a fact.
    1
  784.  @familyguy8184  It is a fact. Murder has an established definition.
    1
  785.  @familyguy8184  You can call it disgusting if you want. That doesn't make it murder.
    1
  786.  @nickstojic6995  It is an accurate argument because the base for both is bodily autonomy. Even if I am on deaths door because of renal failure, a doctor cannot drag you into an OR and remove your kidney to save me. My right to life is not above your right to liberty. Its the same in pregnancy. It doesn't matter what the purpose is. A fetus does not get to use the mother to sustain life unless the mother consents
    1
  787. The right to life doesn't supercede the right to liberty.
    1
  788.  @whitewhitewhite2446  That isn't what constitues the right to liberty, and you damn well know that.
    1
  789.  @whitewhitewhite2446  When we're speaking about the right to liberty, you know that its about the right to do with your body what you choose to do. The right to life does not supercede this, which is why abortion has never been overturned. (Technically, fetuses don't even have the right to life, but I'll speak as if they do)
    1
  790.  @maroonmaroonmaroon2985  The problem with that is that is not what the right to liberty means. Nor does the right to liberty superecede the right to life. These rights are equal.
    1
  791.  @coeuradorateur  Not up to you.
    1
  792.  @matt1325  I think it goes without saying that personhood only applies to the homo sapian species
    1
  793.  @matt1325  No. Its just language.
    1
  794.  @matt1325  No, I entirely disagree. I would not consider someone who is not human a person, nor do I think "personhood" is relevant in the abortion debate. I only bring up personhood to those who call fetuses "beings" because they aren't. Criteria for me is just sentience. Has nothing to do with personhood. Personhood in humans is just defined by sentience. That's where I believe the line should be drawn.
    1
  795.  @ruffgook  or you could just be honest and say abortion is never murder because it doesn't fit the definition.
    1
  796.  @ruffgook  No. No its not. For once, stop lying and actually look up the definition of murder.
    1
  797.  @ruffgook  Maybe you should. But since you're too lazy, I'll do it for you. Murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. I'm not pro-abortion. I am pro-choice. I think a person should be able to choose what they want.
    1
  798.  @ruffgook  I am proud to call people out on their lies. Hopefully it helps sway some minds. I don't care if you're pro-life, but at least be honest about it. No, I'm not pro-abortion. Never will be.
    1
  799.  @ruffgook  Its a lie that abortion is murder. That's all. Yes, I disagree with your view, but it is your view to have, and I take no issue with that. I see your side. You don't see mine. I don't think your view is a lie. Just abortion being murder is a lie, and that is something that I have demonstrated. You're the one who claims moral highground. Not me. Nope, still not pro abortion. Pro-choice.
    1
  800.  @ruffgook  Yes it is. I once again, gave you the definition of murder. Murder is a legal term. Killing? Sure. Murder? No. My view is pro-choice. If you continue to call abortion murder, then you are, in fact, lying. Because its not. I am for a woman's right to choose to have an abortion. Pro-abortion would imply that I believe every pregnant person should have an abortion. And I don't. You can also be anti-abortion and pro-choice.
    1
  801. We already know abstinence only doesn't work.
    1
  802.  @evanscott9473  And once again, that's not what murder means. Don't you people get tired of lying...? Also, please show me a fetus that develops that "body" right away and without the use of the mother. Oh wait...
    1
  803.  @TheBlackSuburban  Okay, so let me correct you on something. Yes, you are terminating a pregnancy. Yes, the fetus is human. However, you are not killing a baby. Baby is post-utero. Also, that still isn't what murder means
    1
  804.  @TheBlackSuburban  A fetus is human. Its not any definition of murder. And again, no one is killing a baby. Baby is post utero.
    1
  805.  @TheBlackSuburban  Okay, so?
    1
  806.  @TheBlackSuburban  No. No it isn't. You can continue to lie if you want, but that's all it is.
    1
  807. @Humanity Galatica No its not. Do you ever get tired of lying?
    1
  808. @Humanity Galatica Something can be a subjective concept (like murder being right/wrong) and have an objective truth (abortion doesn't fit its definition). For instance: My subjective morality is secular humanism. According to secular humanism, rape is objectively wrong.
    1
  809.  @Gay.Muhammad  He already has that right. He can petition the court to terminate his parental rights, or he can file for custody. Also, no abortion is paid for by taxpayers. That is against the federal law.
    1
  810. Yes...fuck bodily autonomy!
    1
  811. ​ @nickstojic6995  Child and baby are both after birth. You use the word child because it incites a reaction in order to guilt people. That's extremely dishonest.
    1
  812.  @nickstojic6995  I know many women who refer to their unborn as a fetus. Just because we coloquially call it a baby doesn't mean that's scientifically accurate. But in common language, who cares? Scientifically and medically, a baby and child is post utero, whereas a fetus is in utero. Just because you've never met one doesn't mean they don't exist.
    1
  813.  @nickstojic6995  If you want to use the term coloquially sure. But again, if we're speaking from the actual medical/biological one, no. That is not why I'm calling it dishonest. I'm calling people like YOU dishonest because YOU refer to a fetus as a child as a way to shame and guilt people who have abortions. You are being extremely disingenuous and its obvious. Calling it something "forever" doesn't make something factually accurate. I'm not trying to elicit a negative response. I'm calling it what it is. It fits the definition of a parasite. That doesn't make it bad. It just shows you part of the reason behind why abortions are legal. Because medically, they are parasites. Doesn't make them any less of a wonderful thing. When you want and can take care of them of course.
    1
  814.  @nickstojic6995  I see them as a wonderful thing from the perspective of a person who wants and cares for them. I know what abuse does to children. I'm just not a person who believes death is worse than suffering.
    1
  815.  @nickstojic6995  I did read it. I also responded to it, debunking most of your claims. Whether or not this is relavent or you believe me, I am not going to speculate. But I have a master's degree in biology, so I think my terminology is probably more credible than yours. Even if biology is not the career path I went into, its something I use and study endlessly. I am certainly aware that some people do use the term parasite to be dehumanizing. That is not my stance. I acknowledge the fact that it is human and alive. But I also acknowledge the fact that it is a parasite by definition. It is not by any definition a "child" except colloquially, and only when referring to humans, as a fetus is any in utero mammal. I understand pro-life. It is pro-life that does not (or in most cases refuses to) understand pro-choice.
    1
  816. No, and it never was. Its unlawful termination of a pregnancy.
    1
  817. Hey guess what? Protected sex still has pregnancies. Oh and guess what else? Some places can't get plan B without a prescription.
    1
  818. Considering the vast majority of countries allow abortion...
    1
  819.  @AJ-lm5dl  Then there should be no issue simply removing the fetus, since its not "my body". Oh wait...it dies if you do that.
    1
  820.  @venus7515  If you actively oppressing someone who was an opporessor, you are still an oppressor. So yes, it does switch.
    1
  821. Nope.
    1
  822. No one would get abortions if a fetus could survive outside of a womb and they did not have to care for it. There would be no reason to. The adoption process can take years. And that is why only 13% of people who look into adoption follow through. The fact remains that there are not enough parents who want to care for the amount of children in care.
    1
  823.  @ekoyal_gemu4446  Then by definition it isn't murder.
    1
  824.  @mathildeyoung1823   And that "support and compassion" may include termination of a pregnancy that is detrimental, yet you say they should deal with it. That's not supportive or compassionate. Funny thing. They did untill assholes like you elected officials that defunded them. Because you just assumed that because they allowed abortions, that must be all they do. One victims viewpoint does not and should not dictate the behavior of all. If a person is traumatized be that experience and give birth, how the hell is that giving the child "the life it deserves?" It deserves to be abused and neglected when it actually can feel? Sickening. Sounds like someone using their trauma to be manipulative and vindictive. Actually, its about 2% of all abortions, which is thousands of people. So what if they do? The fact that people actually believe suffering is better than death is atrocious.
    1
  825. People say that because abstinence not only doesn't work but is unhealthy for those that have a naturally high libido.
    1
  826. You mean how its done with a pill that you take? Or are you only citing late term abortions that are done for medical necessity on purpose? When you can't care for yourself, your child WILL be miserable. That is a fact. Life isn't valuable unless you place the value there. It is not inherent.
    1
  827.  @JohnSmith-px1fm  Actually, no she wasn't. In fact, she believed for nearly 2 decades that was her little brother. Children CAN give birth. And if you are pro-life, you are against abortion in any circumstance.
    1
  828.  @TheLegendOfRandy  There are plenty of examples of in species parastism. In fact, one of the diseases we can see in human is called parasitic twinning.
    1
  829.  @Nothing-37125  Humans are just animals with a higher level of conscious. I fail to see how comparing us to pigs is wrong.
    1
  830.  @Nothing-37125  Humans are jsutnwjumals who got lucky during evolution. I fail to see the absurrid
    1
  831. You don't even have to pay child support. This argument is so ridiculous. Petition to court and terminate your paternal rights.
    1
  832.  @jessegutierrez1869  Except its not. We know abstinence only stances are not effective.
    1
  833.  @jessegutierrez1869  It would be nice if it were that simple, but unfortunately it just isn't.
    1
  834. There are currently 44,000 children waiting to be adopted on any given day. If the number was as high as you claimed, there would be no unwanted children. But the fact is, only 13% of people who start the adoption process will ever go through with it. Also, newborns do indeed go into the foster care system. We have nurserys specifically because of that. Anyone who thinks that newborns only get privately adopted is just ignorant. Finally, adoption is not solution to pregnancy.
    1
  835. You can't be both. They are opposites.
    1
  836.  @dustinellerbe4125  I'm only telling you what the definitions of the positions are. These terms have established definitions that you do not get to change. Don't be ashamed to talk about your position. Just understand what the terms are. You are pro-choice. But thats only surface level.
    1
  837.  @dustinellerbe4125  I do understand.
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  838. Its always a clump of cells. "Heartbeat" isn't even accurate. You can't even hear it at 6 weeks. What you're seeing on a sonagram is electrical impulses from the cells of the fetus that will form what will be the pacemaker for the heart. This is entirely controlled by the mother.
    1
  839.  @SaiyanMonkeyDude  Imagine not understanding that abortion is dealing with the consequences.
    1
  840.  @SaiyanMonkeyDude  I never said I was a liberal, and I myself am asexual. Also, when did drugs become a part of this? I'm all for ending the drug war. Also, abortion does come with consequences, both emotionally and monetarily.
    1
  841. Technically, they would state that it is a human life at the moment of successful implantation. Not at conception.
    1
  842.  @redredred8408  Never said they were.
    1
  843.  @aashna2465  The vast majority of abortions are done via a pill that forces the body to essentially miscarry. Are all pro-lifers just manipulative liars?
    1
  844.  @travisjohnson7065  Your subjective opinion means nothing to anyone but you.
    1
  845.  @frishter  A fetus cannot give consent and is chattle, therefore consent does not apply.
    1
  846.  @frishter  A fetus doesn't need to consent, because it is property. It also can't consent to life and birth, so the point is moot. So what about slow codes? Where doctors will refuse patients they know they cannot save? Should they be imprisoned for that?
    1
  847.  @youssefadel5491  Because it isn't sentient and isn't a person. Yes, it is alive and yes it is human. That means nothing. Personally, abortion is an option I hope is a last resort for all, but is ultimately a decision of the pregnant person.
    1
  848.  @frishter  Just because its property doesn't mean it doesn't have value to the people close to it. I'm only telling you what it legally is, and why abortions remain in effect. My cat is property, and means more to me than most humans. I don't want you to misunderstand. These aren't false comparisons. The OP said you didn't have a right to end human life. Which just isn't true. Morally you may not agree, but rights are legal sanctions, not moral ones. They just play a part in our morality. When you refuse aid on the basis you don't believe you can help, you are intentionally ending a life. You are not doing what you could to potentially save it. Why do you think abortion has never been outlawed? Because it is a legal right and because a fetus is property. That's just the fact of the matter.
    1
  849.  @firstpcf  I do not know the law in most countries. I'm referring to the US.
    1
  850.  @Shrimp_Insurance  Did you know you can be pro-choice and anti-abortion?
    1
  851.  @mo.ka.9661  Yes they can. You can literally petition the court to terminate your parental rights. You just no longer receive the benefits that come with a child should you choose to do it.
    1
  852. But there is no murder, so...
    1
  853. 1. No one cares. 2. Sorry that the right to bodily autonomy disturbs you. Doubt you would like being forced to donate blood and organs. 3. Sounds like a shitty organization who wants to control people. 4. That is called emotional manipulation. The only reason you care now is because you have life experiences. Had your mother actually aborted you, you would not have cared. 5. The movie Unplanned is disgusting propaganda that has been continuously debunked. Abortions just don't happen that way. You aren't right for being pro-life. You're simply anti bodily autonomy.
    1
  854.  @alanbourbeau24  I wasn't trying to be helpful or encouraging. I was pointing out flaws and disagreements with your sentiments as well as some flat out lies.
    1
  855.  @gulserensmsk  Then you aren't pro-life. Pro-life by definition is against abortion in any circumstances. And no, I have found many pro lifers who believe it is actually very noble for a mother to die to give her fetus a chance at life.
    1
  856.  @RachelDee  The only definition of pro-life is a person who opposes abortion and euthanasia. People just want to try and change that definition so they don't get called out. But you don't get to.
    1
  857. Its conflated with rights because its a rights issue. You do not have the right to live at the expense of someone else without consent.
    1
  858.  @wildrose2748  Imagine the look on your face if there is no judgement day.
    1
  859.  @NightsLastWish  Mmm. Let's just pretend that adoption solves the issue of unwanted pregnancy and that adoption is always readily available and guarentees a safe life. Abortion is justified in any circumstance if the person sincerely believes they cannot care for it.
    1
  860.  @NightsLastWish  So what if it kills a living fetus? I don't think humans are inherently valuable. If you see no issue with sheep being hung by their back legs and their throat slit, I fail to see why you have a problem with a pill and a D&C or a surgical abortion. Science does not define murder. Murder is a LEGAL word. Not a moral one. It has an established definition, so stop trying to change it in order to suit a narrative. I never said it wasn't alive. It is. But killing something living doesn't equate to murder. Yes, and I wonder why that is. I am sorry, but you are delusional if you honestly believe suffering is better than death. And if you believe so strongly that the fetus deserves life, why should it die to save you? Wouldn't dying be the "selfless" thing? Abortion is taking responsibility, no matter how you try and twist it. And stop. Not even a majority of people who abort are traumatized. You'd find that much more common in people forced to give birth.
    1
  861.  @rodpruitt8926  Who is incorrect?
    1
  862.  @rodpruitt8926  Nope. You always have control over you body.
    1
  863.  @rodpruitt8926  A child yes. A fetus? Depends on if you want it or not.
    1
  864.  @whistle4301  I get to determine if I view life as special. I don't speak for anyone else. And you do not determine whether or not someone can have sex
    1
  865.  @hettinga359  And its not, so...
    1
  866.  @thelemurofmadagascar9183  So why do we have slow codes and DNR's? Why do we not force people to undergo live saving treatment?
    1
  867.  @redredred8408  So its wrong to decide you don't want to live anymore and to not want to be kept alive by machines. Whatever you say
    1
  868.  @Kekekepeeps  Most abortions are not carried out surgically.
    1
  869. So apparently those fetuses don't matter. We are literally all selfish.
    1
  870.  @travisjohnson7065  You mean how you're given a pill and then have a D&C like a miscarriage, the way 97% of abortions are done? Or are you trying to refer to the surgical abortions in order to push a narrative?
    1
  871. There is no one on Earth that doesn't have access to abortion. There are places that don't have access to a medically safe abortion. That doesn't mean it isn't a right. Rights are not inherent.
    1
  872. Even though you do have that option
    1
  873. Imagine carrying more about a fetus than a sentient person. Also, if we're being honest, a fetus has no rights.
    1
  874. Abortion is not murder.
    1
  875.  @PiscesPisces-qq2ti  Thats not what defines murder. Murder is a legal term.
    1
  876.  @janellemedrano3666  No one kills a baby in an abortion. Abortions ade specifically designed for people who don't want be pregnant
    1
  877. I wonder why most abortions are those of non-whites...? Almost as if they tend to be the most impoverished...
    1
  878.  @paigeanne1325  Now if only that were actually true.
    1
  879.  @paigeanne1325  That's certainly not true of the US. I would do some research. Poverty is most common in non-whites. Not saying those of other races can't be successful. But they do have less advantages. Of course this also depends entirely on where you live and your environmental circumstances.
    1
  880.  @aoy1889  Yes. Yes you did. Abortion is not murder. That's a fact.
    1
  881.  @aoy1889  Which I never denied. But killing doesn't equate to murder. Murder is a legal term. Yes, its killing. No, its not murder.
    1
  882.  @shsjs30  I'm glad you are privileged enough to be able to afford to see an OBGYN and afford to take birth control. Unfortunately, there's a lot of people that's aren't. Yes, I agree. Abstain if you can. But to claim that access to contraception isn't hard is very short sighted and depends entirely on where in the country you live. There are consequences. There are also consequences to those consequences. No, no it doesn't. For once, stop being dishonest. Murder is a legal term. A term defined by the fact that it's unlawful, which killing is not. Birth control is designed to prevent fertilization, so no. It physically can't be a form of birth control. But that aside, what person do you know that just goes out and shells 600-800 dollars to have an abortion every time they get pregnant? That simply doesn't happen. If you're trying to say that sometimes abortion is immediately jumped to after a pregnancy is discovered, then I agree. That's still not birth control. I highly doubt your claims, but even if you did have people that told you that, that doesn't make what they said true.
    1
  883.  @travisjohnson7065  Yes it does. What I was trying to say was that the fetuses life cycle begins at implantation, because no life is produced if the egg does not implant. I know the egg and sperm are living, I was just referring to the fetus itself.
    1
  884.  @travisjohnson7065  That's what I was clairfying
    1
  885. So I guess fuck anyone with cancer then. Tumors have DNA seperate from their hosts.
    1
  886. Foster care is any child under the jurdistiction of the state. This includes anyone put up for adoption, unless a private adoption is had, which can happen with newborns, but doesn't always.
    1
  887.  @ilya34prvur19  No, not even children.
    1
  888. Uh-huh. Easily adopted huh? Then why does the average newborn spend 3-4 years in foster care before even being considered by a family?
    1
  889.  @deepSea__  The majority of adoptions are not private, as the family's usually do not have the money to hire a lawyer. Most of the time, adoptions are done through the foster care system. Foster care refers to anyone under the care of the state. A private adoption costs money, as its a legal process. Where its free to put a child in a state home.
    1
  890.  @deepSea__  It is free for the mother to put the child up for adoption if she puts it in a state agency. That is foster care. It WILL NOT be free to put a child up for a private adoption. That is a legal process and a lawyer is hired. I'm not doing your legwork. If you really looked, you'd find it. And SOMETIMES your fees will be paid by the adoptive family. Not always, and I would argue not even often. But that certainly varies more
    1
  891. And abortion isn't murder.
    1
  892. The father has options he can take if he doesn't want to raise it. Petition the court to have your paternal rights terminated.
    1
  893.  @travisjohnson7065  Nah, they just buy into the garbage spewed by the pro-life culture.
    1
  894. That's an extreme liability and bases everything on that she has a family willing to take the child.
    1
  895. I think your kinda gross if you don't actively donate blood and organs.
    1
  896.  @cleancountershot3941  I highly doubt you regularly sign up for medical testing, go in requesting to donate organs, and donate blood on a regular basis. Yeah, so many forms. Yet they are unavailable and fail. You do realize that nearly half of abortions are done by people who were using some form of contraception right? How is having an abortion not "assuming the consequences?" It is. Its acknowledging what happened and takes steps to do what's best. I think its gross for someone to be a judgemental hypocrite, not to mention perpuate child abuse.
    1
  897.  @justapotato2434  So are you a vegan? That also takes millions of lives. But I bet they don't matter because they aren't human right?
    1
  898.  @justapotato2434 Since when is life where we place value on? Also, so what if its human?
    1
  899. Abortions are never convenient, and if its thought about, all abortions are done out of necessity. If a person really believes that they cannot handle the pregnancy or care for the child, its a necessity.
    1
  900. Murder by definition is already illegal. So if it isn't illegal, it isn't murder
    1
  901.  @thelastkushbendr7091  Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. 2% is still thousands of people.
    1
  902.  @ILovePink-x1v  And as someone who was part of a suicide pact and was the only one unlucky enough to survive, I would say that is why I don't use this as an argument. I can only tell you the people I have come across.
    1
  903.  @travisjohnson7065  When you buy meat, you are advocating for a butcher to continue making a living slaughtering sentient animals. Yet no one would call that animal abuse. There is no crime committed. Abortion is not illegal. You also act as if "abortionists" (which isn't even a career. Its an inflammatory word used towards hospital staff that carry out abortions) abort for a living. We don't dictate morality based on your subjective opinion. Don't like abortions? Don't have one. Want to lower abortion rates? Fight for the actual issues surrounding abortion. But I bet you don't want to spend more tax dollars on that.
    1
  904. The fetus is not sentient. It cannot be a victim because it feels nothing.
    1
  905. No one is talking about murdering a baby.
    1
  906. You miss the point of the entire argument. The point is, should someone be allowed to use your organ for their survival when you do not consent to it.
    1
  907.  @MonDieuMaCauseMonEpee  Men have ways to not pay child support so this argument has never made sense.
    1
  908. They do. Adoption is a whole other problem.
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  909.  @ilya34prvur19  I disagree.
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  910.  @matt1325  Not really an argument
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  911. Another body that does not exist without the use of someone else. You don't get to use someone else, even if its to sustain life.
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  912.  @rachelnkemokoro2004_  I never instituted to celebrate it. This clearly was a joke. Although I am sure there are people who are.
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  913. As if the fetus cares.
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  914.  @redredred8408  But they only say that in hindsight. Had they been aborted, they would have lacked the ability to care. And how about all those people who wish they had been aborted?
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  915.  @Aanbrickalan  How does stripping away bodily autonomy suggest you have a brain? You lie about what murder means, pretend abstinence thinking actually works, lie about all life mattering (since those animals you eat are more sentient than most aborted fetuses), and pretend like adoption is always available. Why do all pro-lifers have the need to compulsively lie?
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  916. So why should life be the determining factor at all? 1% is still millions of people. Also, how is abortion convenient? I doubt you know what that word means. Oh congrats. Your four case studies were lucky. How about the millions who weren't? Way to show your bias. Yeah, sometimes they are better off dead. They wish they were. Maybe you should spend time in unbiased sources.
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  917.  @kva5751  Oh really? In that case, organ and blood donation should be not only mandatory, but forced. You only need one kidney.
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  918.  @allisondiaz1319  I don't bother with sources that argue from feelings and nonsense. So how is abortion an easy way out? Both choosing to abort and choosing to raise are hard decisions. To claim that one is easy is inane. Once again, I don't think you know what "convenient" means. I would love your evidence on who viewed their abortion as "convenient". I don't believe that ANY kid is better off dead than in foster care. All I'm saying is to not ignore those MAJORITY who have been abused and neglected by the broken system. Don't discredit people who wish they had been aborted. If someone wants to die, that should be their choice.
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  919.  @travisjohnson7065  Uhh that is not always true. Not all births happen in a hospital setting.
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  920.  @travisjohnson7065  That doesn't mean it isn't a violent process. Pregnancy should always be optional. That's why abortions exist. Maybe one day we'll get to a tome where abortions are no longer necessary.
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  921.  @travisjohnson7065  You don't get the choice of whether or not you get pregnant when sex occurs, whether consensual or not. Pregnancy is an act that occurs independently from the brain. They are necessary now, and they likely always will be. This is where your comments get irritating. Just because something isn't wrong doesn't mean the act doesn't have negative feelings that go along with it. Those that opt for abortion do not want an abortion. They just know its they're best option because of circumstances. Something doesn't have to be wrong for something to impact you emotionally. It wasn't wrong of me to put my cat down, but it still makes me upset to think about, because I wish the circumstances were different so I didn't have to make that choice. You're an intelligent person, but you either really enjoy baiting people emotionally, or you are extremely emotionally dense.
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  922. That isn't abortion. That's infanticide.
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  923.  @karlbjerke133  I don't think either have moral value because I don't think inherent value exists.
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  924. @Humanity Galatica Nothing more than the laws of the country I happen to currently inhabit.
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  925. @Humanity Galatica Never said it was. Inherent right or wrong does not exist to me.
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  926.  @pauloalex4899  As if you can't get pregnant using contraceptives.
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  927. Let's just pretend that its that simple and easy.
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  928.  @alexandrab5904  It is for some. Its not for others. Should probably get that black and white way of thinking tuned a little.
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  929.  @alexandrab5904  Abortion isn't murder
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  930.  @alexandrab5904  I don't live in Iceland so I really don't care
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  931.  @HarrisonTheGrey  Against its will? You can't make that argument because the fetus has no will at the time of most abortions. And last I looked, murder was a legal term that required an unlawful killing. So no, apparently it is hard logic for you to understand, because you continue to spout the same nonsense.
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  932. You aren't dehumanizing it by calling it what it is. Its a human fetus.
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  933.  @hettinga359  That is a flat out lie. There is no study, other than from religious and severely pro-life groups, that has ever concluded that women who have abortions are more likely to suffer from depression. In fact, the women who suffer from depression are usually those forced to give birth when they are unfit. Abortion is unnatural? Do you know what another medical term for a miscarriage is? A self-abortion. You know what can also have side effects no one talks about? Pregnancy.
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  934. No the issue stems more on where the value of people is placed. Life or sentience.
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  935.  @paulinemartens9900  What does that mean? The argument about abortion should not be whether its human. That's not up for debate. It is. Its whether you find value in life or in sentience that determines whether your pro life of choice.
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  936.  @paulinemartens9900  You and I are on the same side.
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  937. No one is killing a baby
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  938. No, its because people still literally believe all abortions involve tearing a fetus limb from limb.
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  939.  @grilledcheese2100  "You are doing the same if you commit aborting" Since when is abortion illegal? Since when is it murder? No one is pushing their opinions on you. You have your opinion, they disagree and are telling you why. The purpose of debate is to sway a neutral position and to provide agruments to everyone's points.
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  940.  @grilledcheese2100  You implied that abortion is murder, which is what makes it immoral. Euthanasia, Capital punishment, self defense, slow codes and DNR's also take human lives. Are you against all of that? I find that difficult to believe. The commenter said that because you implied something about abortion that isn't true, coming across as you were trying to convince them it was.
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  941.  @grilledcheese2100  I wasn't referring to murder. I was referring to your comment in saying abortion is wrong because it takes a human life, which you are correct about. I'm trying to clarify why you think abortion is wrong. Is it wrong because you believe it is murder, or is it wrong because it takes human life? Euthanasia is considered murder because it is illegal in most places. Does that mean its wrong? If a person has a right to live, should they not also have the right to die? If you are okay with euthanasia, why are you against abortion? This isn't about these scenarios being murder. Its about trying to establish why you disagree with abortion.
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  942.  @grilledcheese2100  Your first comment tried to argue that an intrinsic sense of "morality" should tell us abortion is wrong, without providing evidence that we have intrinsic morality. The fact is, morality will always be subjective.
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  943.  @grilledcheese2100  True. Thats fine by me. But if your argument happens to come from Christianity, the Bible is by no means against abortion. And even if there is a higher power, morality would still be subjective. You can however have objective morality in a subjective moral framework
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  944. You mean how a mother is given a pill and then a D&C is performed like how a miscarriage would be? Since that is how most abortions are performed?
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