Comments by "TombWraith" (@Tomb-Wraith) on "Pro-Choice vs Pro-Life: Can They See Eye To Eye? | Middle Ground" video.

  1. Maybe that's because everyone around you wants the right to their own body and you just want to take that away because you think you'd be helping. Maybe also because they want people who are dying to be able to go on their terms.
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  2.  @bellarose1562  Biologically, thats what is is. And it IS a parasite. Just because these words have negative connotations do not make them inaccurate. Sure, when a sperm fertilizes the egg of a human woman, a human is in fact created. So what? Why does that matter? Why does that change the outright shitty lives some people had because their mother was manipulated into not having an abortion?
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  3.  @karmen3652  Oh yes. Because being selfish is such a bad thing that no one good ever does. Or maybe they are anti-abortion, but think people should be allowed to die when they want. But you'll never consider that, because your too busy on your high horse.
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  4. Yeah. One's actually honest about the insignificance of human kind.
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  5. We still are. Except I'm sentient where a fetus is not.
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  6.  @annefrank4657  And? What makes you think they'll live? You're just hoping.
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  7. You say that as if we would have chosen to be born if given that option.
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  8. So its now evil to want the right to what happens to your body. I guess you should be for forced organ donation right? If I need a kidney to live, I should just be able to take it from someone right? They won't die, and my life matters more. Also, abortion is not and has never been convenient.
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  9. You do not speak for everyone. Your experience is only for yourself. I aborted my first child, and while I wish things could have ended differently, I don't regret my decision. I did what I had to.
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  10.  @abdouliverpool247  Haha. I tried. I tried and was stopped, because we don't have a right to die in this state. I don't believe in Hell. I'm not grateful. I've been permanently disabled by a mother who couldn't raise me and a broken system. Fuck your faith.
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  11. Not everyone believes in your 2000 year old nonsense book. Also, shall we go over the verses that have no problem ripping the unborn from their mother?
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  12. That doesn't make us hypocritical. We didn't get the choice to be born. Some of us wish we had been aborted. Also, you don't know what the word "irony" means.
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  13. Just so you know, if you support abortion in rape, incest and medical emergency situations, you are not pro-life. You are pro-choice. You are also pro-choice if you support a person's right to die on their terms. If you're standing for citizens, you need to stand for people's right to liberty. That is a right to an abortion.
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  14. I seriously hope you're a troll and this response gave you the attention you want.
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  15. @Coaster Creator You know damn well that's a flat out lie.
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  16.  @karmen3652  You proved my point.
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  17.  @davidhernandez-sr9hg  Which affects millions of people, because there would be laws put into effect that would make it a crime to get an abortion in another state. The right to abortion is a constitutional one. It will never be overturned.
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  18. There is. Its called Pro-Choice.
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  19. No, the middle ground is "talk about and weigh all options before deciding what is right for your particular situation".
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  20. Men should have a say. But they should not have the final say. If you are not the one carrying the child, you do not have the final say. That being said, I think abortions would be less common if men and women had that conversation.
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  21. Oh really? Then I suppose if someone breaks into your house, you have no right to choose if they live or die. No one in thr military has a right to choose who lives and who dies. The state doesn't have the right to execute a criminal. Fuck off. You clealy make exceptions for situations, so maybe don't be a hypocrite?
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  22. Oh okay. So you're a massive hypocrite. The fetus is valuable if consent was not given and the same process used to terminate the pregnancy suddenly becomes "not murder". That's a moronic statement. No, most people who are pro-choice just believe in bodily autonomy.
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  23. Nope. The father absolutely should talk to the mother. But the final decision depends entirely on the one who is carrying.
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  24. No, its still my body my choice. Consent to sex, condom or otherwise, is not consent to pregnancy.
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  25. Nah. Everyone should be pro-choice.
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  26. Nah, I'm not cool with denying people rights to their bodies.
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  27. But thats only because you know him. You can't miss something you never had.
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  28.  @davidhernandez-sr9hg  If you are specifically going to another state to have an abortion to dodge a law that outlaws it, trust me, that will also be a crime. Just as it is in other countries. The right to abortion is outlined in the Constitution, though not explicitly. A law will never violate that. It won't be overturned. Because to overturn would violate the Constitution. That is why in the 40+ years you've been fighting, you have never overturned it.
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  29. As if deciding on abortion isn't dealing with consequences. Everyone is irresponsible at some point. If you love a fetus that isn't sentient that much, show some empathy toward the sentient human carrying it.
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  30. That is the biggest false equivalency I have ever heard.
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  31.  @matt1325  1. There is absolutely such thing as an unwanted child. If there weren't, people wouldn't bother with protection or contraception at all, nor would parents neglect or abuse their children. 2. Because sex is not for reproduction. Sure, it is at its most basic function, but our brains have evolved passed that. By the way, abortion is not "running from consequences", especially with people like you who would openly shame a woman and extremists who go so far as to say she should die.
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  32. I would like evidence of that, because I doubt anyone cares.
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  33. I can't wait until every can use condoms, take birth control, and its always 100% effective
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  34. And abortion has nothing to do with babies. It has to do with the development and life of fetuses. Baby is post utero.
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  35. Unresponsible is not a word. Its Irresponsible. And no. They're not. What would be irresponsible is abusing and neglecting a child you had because you can't care for it.
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  36.  @cractrick9225  As if abortion isn't taking responsibility. Because it is.
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  37. Yes he does. He has loads of options. -Don't sleep with a woman who may abort -Have a conversation with the woman if she falls pregnant instead of walking out -File with the court to get custody -Terminate your parental rights. Both sexes have all of these options. The man should have input, but ultimately does not have control of a woman's body.
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  38. Abortion is taking responsibility just as much as adoption and motherhood when done with the best intentions.
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  39. That's really sad. Glad to know you don't support the rights of people's bodily autonomy.
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  40.  @whitewhitewhite2446  Its sad that she is against human rights.
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  41. Sure. They just don't get final say.
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  42. You'll have an argument when the fetus can develop without the use of someone's organ.
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  43. There are many states where that's legal. If you tresspass on property and get hurt, you can't then sue for damages. You weren't supposed to be there in the first place.
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  44. Thats because its her uterus. Not his. He has no right to her organs any more than the fetus does. Don't end up in that situation.
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  45. Because pregnancy is a side effect of sex.
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  46. Because they're 100% effective right?
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  47. Yet another addition to the "that's not what that word means" category.
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  48. No, its fighting for their right to bodily autonomy.
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  49. Then you're pro-choice.
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  50.  @hello-sz7hp  Umm...no? Pregnancy is not a conscious decision made. And by the way, not everyone consents to sex. I have a right to what happens to my body. Simple.
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  51. Is not an answer to unwanted pregnancy.
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  52. Its not though.
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  53. Nah.
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  54. No one kills a baby in an abortion. And the difference is Jews were sentient beings. Fetuses are not. Being human doesn't make you valuable or special.
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  55.  @Henry-gv3cy  Right and wrong are subjective.
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  56. Its like the pro-lifers don't even bother to look at adoption statistics, or the rampant abuse in the foster care system.
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  57. Uhh...yes they are. They're direct antonyms. If you are pro-life, you are against abortion. If you are pro-choice, you aren't.
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  58. Okay, but that doesn't stop it from being true.
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  59. Do you people ever get tired of being dishonest? Or do you seriously not know the difference between a colloquial term and a legal term?
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  60.  @matt1325  Why does the fetus have value and the mother does not?
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  61.  Alexander Appea  Nah, I love it here in the US. Where you know. I have rights over my own body and I get to decide when and if I die. Even though the latter is not available to all.
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  62. So all the failed contraception, rapes, incest, and unprepared events such as medical conditions, sudden financial troubles, or the father leaving...thats all just about an irresponsible sex life? Yeah no.
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  63. Great idea. Now try to find a doctor that will tie your tubes or give you a hysterectomy before you're 35. These are surgical procedures. You can't just walk in and say "hey, I wanna have sex and don't want to get pregnant. Operate on me!" By the way, tubial ligation also doesn't always prevent pregnancy.
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  64. Because protected sex NEVER fails right?
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  65. Being against the right over one's body or the right for someone to die on their terms is not something one should find joy in.
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  66. As if all women can take birth control and birth control is 100% effective. Imagine being ignorant and thinking everyone can just "not have sex."
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  67.  @whitewhitewhite2446  Its not a baby nor is it hurt. That point makes no sense.
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  68.  @Henry-gv3cy  Show me a fetus that exists without a placenta, endometrium and a uterus. Right. You can't. A fetus cannot develop on its own. You don't get to live off of someone else's body. Period.
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  69. And he is a moron who doesn't understand word definitions.
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  70. F A I L S
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  71. Show me a fetus capable of developing its "own body" without using a woman's uterus.
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  72. You do understand that if she did that, she would also have to pay child support...right?
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  73. No one murders an unborn baby. They terminate the development of a fetus, usually that isn't sentient. What's the problem?
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  74. Do you? Because all organic life are clusters of cells at a basic biological level.
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  75. A non-sentient fetus with no brain incapable of making a decision.
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  76. Wanna know the glaring flaw in your argument? It hinges on the fact that ALL illegal abortion related deaths were reported. Which just isn't reality. That isn't how statistics work. It only works on those deaths that were actually reported. And they aren't. That's not even the issue. The issue is outlawing abortion would statistically have a far greater negative outcome for the mother than that of one who got a legal abortion. That, and its unconstitutional to NOT allow abortion. I have the right to liberty. My rights are not superceded by a fetus (which actually, legally, has no rights).
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  77.  @danedds1068  We only have data on things that are accurately reported. And statistics for reporting are very different now than what was reported on in the 1930's. Would you actually say that rape statistics are accurate, when nearly 50% of rapes are either not reported or not believed? No. Your information is only accurate in the context of what is actually being reported correctly. In the context of abortion, yes. A woman would have a 0% of dying from an abortion if she did not have one. I was only comparing illegal abortions to leagal ones, not deaths in general. If we're speaking legally, a fetus does not have liberty until after birth. If we're speaking medically, most people would start the fetuses rights at the point when sentience is obtained. That is well after the vast majority of abortions, which is why we have cutoff dates. No, it won't. You've been saying that for 40 years. And you already tried to ban abortion in places like Georgia and Alabama, to the point where you had the police say they would not enforce the law, because its unconstitutional. Banning abortion would be both a quick way to ensure no conservative was elected in any majority, and would definitely lead to serious protest and violence.
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  78. Umm no. Plants are alive but do not have a heartbeat. There are several indicators of life. Murder is unlawful by definition, so no abortion is murder unless you live in a place that outlaws it. By the way, you do you place more value on a heart than a brain?
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  79. Then you aren't pro-life. Pro-life by defintion is against abortion in ANY circumstance. You're still pro-choice. Whether or not there are other options doesn't matter. There are currently 44,000 children waiting to be adopted in the US alone. Where are these so called families? Oh, thats right. They want children that meet very specific criteria.
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  80. Abortion isn't murder so not much to justify.
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  81. A fetus is biologically dependent on another human's body. That makes it legal property. It stops being this way when it is viable without using another person for its functions of life.
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  82.  @crabsaresilly8317  I am well aware. But only 1 of those two people has their bodily autonomy violated.
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  83. That's because its simply not murder of a human being, and to say that is dishonest and disingenuous. Then again, the "clump of cells" argument is ridiculous as well, as all organic life is "clusters of cells" Adoption is not always an option, nor does it solve the issue of the pregnancy itself. And pregnancy is not a choice. Its an effect to an action that happens independently of said action. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.
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  84.  @samuelsouza3054  So we lost our humanity for wanting bodily autonomy? In that case, I hope you get your organs forcefully taken from you to give to people who depend on them for survival.
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  85. Yes, he can refuse child support. He can go to court and terminate his rights.
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  86. Okay. You keep living in that delusion.
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  87. It is a simple medical procedure but so what if life is at stake? Quit pretending your value is on life. Its not.
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  88. So do pregnancies from failed condoms just not exist? Or are both of those choices wrong?
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  89. No one is murdering a baby when an abortion occurs. Its not murder nor is it a baby. It is terminating the development of a fetus. Sex is about more than baby making. Get that through your head.
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  90.  @whistle4301  Why is human life on a pedastal? You destroy life every day.
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  91. You should have your rights stripped then as well and be forced to donate blood and organs.
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  92.  @buzzlightyearlight1247  Yeah uhuh. Keep pretending you care.
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  93.  @protector9513  You choose to have sex. That isn't choosing to get pregnant. Pregnancy is a potential result of sex, but is not something the brain consciously decides to do. These two things are independent actions. If you do not support abortion being legal for a person to take, then you simply don't support people's rights. If you morally disagree with abortion, but are willing to understand the legality behind it, then frankly, I take no issue with the pro-life stance. A fetus does not have rights. A fetus is chattle. It is no different than property until it is no longer a biological dependent.
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  94. Doesn't matter if it isn't the fetuses fault. Its my uterus its using. I choose whether or not I consent for it to be there. "It would become a full human being" Someone doesn't know that miscarriages and stillbirths happen still. In fact, 50% of implanted embryo's end in miscarriage, often before a woman even knows she's pregnant.
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  95. Which they do. Sever your paternal rights.
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  96. Because protection always works...right?
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  97. Haha..."well". That's awfully presumptuous. Way to just assume we want to be alive.
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  98. Yes, you do. So long as it doesn't infringe on another person's rights. That's why this is a woman's rights issue, because people want to be put the "right to life" of the fetus above the right to liberty when they are equal.
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  99. Because its the same thing. If you're going to strip away the right to bodily autonomy, then everyone should lose that right. If I have to let a fetus use my uterus against my consent, you should be forced to donate blood and organs against yours.
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  100. And you people are acting like adoption is easy and care-free.
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  101. So what? You a vegan? Anti-gun? Anti-death penalty? Life isn't the issue.
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  102.  @anomaloustick4471  Humans are animals. The point is, if the problem with abortion is strictly that it kills life, then being for any of these things is hypocritical. The type of life shouldn't matter if "life" is so sacred. No one "murders a baby" during an abortion. Fuck off with that.
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  103.  @anomaloustick4471  Because murder is a legal term, and even if I granted personhood at every stage since conceeption (which the law does not) its still not unlawful, which it must be to be murder. Killing? Yes. Murder? No.
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  104. Thats not helpful nor easy. Ignoring your own sexual needs is one of the leading causes of sexual violence. It should be avoided when can and practiced safely.
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  105.  @grimftl  That doesn't make you pro-life. You are pro-choice. The definition of a word doesn't change because you want it to. If you think that abortion is a decision of the person and the doctor, you are pro-choice.
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  106. You say that as if its a bad thing. Humans are selfish by nature.
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  107.  @IssyFishyy  That's your opinion, and you are entitled to it. I think the rights of the sentient are important.
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  108. Sorry that you got brainwashed into thinking you shouldn't have bodily autonomy and that a fetus cares if you abort it.
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  109. I know I would have.
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  110. I had an abortion and don't feel the least bit guilty. I wish I hadn't been put in that situation, but I believe I made the right decision.
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  111. So, a woman who has sex should be forced to give birth to a child she cannot handle? How is that helpful for the child or the mother? Nothing prevents pregnancy except a hysterectomy or abstinence. There are currently 44,000 children waiting to be adopted. Where's the line of parents? Oh thats right. It doesn't exist. Yeah, those resources aren't as available as you think, nor are they always free.
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  112.  @gabbiel7130  No, sex was "created" for marriage only in your religious worldview. Animals have sex, yet don't recognize marriage. That's a human concept. You do realize that condoms nor pulling out are 100% effective right? The fetus doesn't care, so why should you? Its not sentient.
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  113. So why does it suddenly not become sacred if the person's life is in danger?
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  114. Yeah pro-life is way better. Those abandoned and abused children may disagree with you.
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  115. Nah. Not getting a choice in what goes on with your organs is anti-woman though.
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  116.  @lanternlant1280  So then...why's the fetus die if its removed? If it isn't my body, then the fetus doesn't need me, and removal should be no problem? Oh wait. It's biologically dependent on me.
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  117. Because the Bible is against contraception, and they can't decide which part of their fairytale is most accurate
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  118. And when it fails?
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  119.  @cractrick9225  No, avoiding responsibility would be to bring a child into the world that you can't care for. Also, abortion is not convenient.
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  120. Yes. Shame on us for supporting bodily autonomy.
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  121.  @swagsik390  Except your wrong. Show me a fetus that can develop without the use of a uterus. That "other body" is a direct result of use of a woman's body. She has to consent to that.
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  122. So how about the people who use birth control and still get pregnant? How about rape victims? Those with medical illness? Drug addicts? Homeless women? Your argument is severely flawed.
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  123. Because abortion is not a male issue.
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  124. Show me a fetus that develops without a uterus.
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  125.  @legoongoon7548  Its literally attached to her uterus. Sure, its using her to grow what will become its own body. But its biologically attached to her.
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  126.  @legoongoon7548  That's literally like saying a finger is not a part of you. If its attached and depends on you for survival, it IS part of you.
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  127.  @legoongoon7548  A finger is made of living tissue and cells. So yes, it is a living organism, scientifically speaking. Ironically, this is the same argument for abortion. It is alive. But it lacks sentience, at least until a certain point. Head lice are not biologically dependant on you for survival. Your argument doesn't work
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  128.  @whistle8388  Not a baby. Fetus. And it isn't about the fetus. Its about the pregnant person.
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  129. As if abstaining from having sex is healthy in the slightest when you have an active libido. As if being called things like a "baby killer" and having to pay for the entire procedure out of pocket is "the easy way out".
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  130. Great advice in theory. Not so great in practice. Most people don't have sex to procreate, and telling someone they must have any child they create is ridiculous and unrealistic.
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  131. Uhh...no. You can't. The definition of one contradicts the other. You can understand both sides, but you can't "be" both sides.
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  132. Baby is post utero. Fetus. You want to call it fetus killing? Fine.
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  133. Vs A panel of anti women's rights supporters.
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  134. You really don't have an answer for the "cluster of cells" argument, because its the truth. The only comeback you would have is "everything is just clusters of cells" and would have immediately been destroyed by sentience. You're more livid at the fact that people are realizing that being pro-life is the wrong side.
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  135. Yeah okay. Go take a look at the adoption system. Glad to know your against pregnant womens rights and the rights of the terminally ill, and for the systematic abuse of children.
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  136. Hey there you got me. Yes I have. And that is very sad. Not sure what this has to do with me specifically or abortion but...yeah. thats awful. Especially if it wasn't a stillborn.
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  137. Its not except in rare cases where there is an establishment that the mother had every intent to keep the child, when she's 20 weeks or more. The vast majority of cases where a pregnant woman is killed is the charge of "unlawful termination of a pregnancy".
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  138. Those things have nothing to do with each other.
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  139. Because everyone eho gets pregnant opened their legs for just anyone, right?
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  140. Except that "body" is ONLY developing by parasitizing the mother.
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  141.  @pewdiepieisdead9845  And?
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  142.  @pewdiepieisdead9845  So a getus can grow out of a womb without the mothers nutrients? No. It relies on HER body to develop.
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  143. I wonder why wanting rights over your own organs and whether or not sick people should have the right to die outweighs forced life and birth...
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  144.  @liriettrod3282  It is their body. A fetus cannot develop without a womb. They aren't killers just because they did what they thought was best.
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  145. Because that's unhealthy for people who have hyperactive libidos, and forced abstinence is one of the major reasons for sex crimes.
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  146.  @anomaloustick4471  Sure. And if that fails?
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  147.  @anomaloustick4471  Sure. Go ahead and try. But people should not be demonized for doing what comes naturally just because they abort gor whatever reason
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  148. Who the hell cares if people around me get affected? I should have to sacrifice my bodily autonomy for someone else? Then are THEY not being selfish by forcing me to bend to their will? Ludicrous. They know the risks. They simply don't care because humans have sex for pleasure above anything else.
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  149. @Humanity Galatica Forcing other people to live by your moral standard is selfish.
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  150.  @progenderrole1329  No it couldn't because there's a difference between being physically dependent on a person and biologically dependent on a person.
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  151.  @jamessmith4287  I did answer, but as usual, youtube deleted my comment. The difference is bodily autonomy, and person vs property. It matters because nothing matters more than bodily autonomy.
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  152. Thats a rather brash and unfounded assumption.
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  153. Why? Does the truth hurt? All organic life is a cluster of cells.
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  154. No it isn't. Perfectly reasonable comparison. You don't get to live at the expense of someone else.
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  155. Yeah, for some it is. It doesn't help to tell someone who is already pregnant "don't have sex".
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  156. Pro-life=Pro-suffering.
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  157. Yes, because condoms are 100% effective at preventing pregnancy right?
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  158. You cannot just "abandon" a child. Thats a federal crime. You can put it up for adoption or leave it in the care of a family member or friend.
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  159. Abortion isn't murder. Nor is euthanasia.
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  160. Anything practiced for someone's health is a medical procedure. And no. It isn't murder. Murder is a legal term. Also, I guess fuck anyone who develops pregnancy related medical complications.
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  161. I...don't understand what you mean.
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  162. There are 44,000 children waiting to be adopted on any given say. 13,000 of these age out of the system in a year and are kicked out with nothing. You do have a choice in what happens to your body. There should be no debate about that.
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  163. Rape, incest, medical problems, financial instability, emotional distress...these are all good reasons to consider abortion. As a last resort in my opinion.
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  164. And if that's an option that works for you, great. But that's not how minds work, especially when they're younger. Protection and abstinence should be talked about in tandem.
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  165.  @hello-sz7hp  Yes it is. I knew a 12 year old who was mauled to death by a Doberman because he tresspassed on private property. Guess what happened? Nothing. Does that mean I condone that approach? Not necessarily. Do I understand why it occurs? 100%
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  166.  @anomaloustick4471  Not the mothers fault the fetus is unviable without it. Don't like abortion? Don't do it.
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  167.  @anonymousbo0318  I only brought up trans men because they can get pregnant, and they have the right to their bodies as well. Just as women do. My point is the person carrying the child has final say.
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  168.  @TheChgz  Technically, we are cells. A "baby" is only after birth. Until then, its a fetus. And when it isn't sentient (when most abortions occur) it cannot make a choice.
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  169. Thats terrible advice. The body wants sex, and if abstinence works great. But to deny the body something it wants like that can be detrimental to your health. The fetus doesn't care. You can't miss something you never had. Safe sex should be practiced and abortion should be a last resort. But its not a baby and it should not be demonized.
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  170. Murder is not a subject of conversation here.
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  171. Nothing. But they can fail. And they also don't help someone who isn't going to use them.
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  172. You people just love being manipulative liars don't you? No one kills a baby in an abortion. Baby is post utero. You wanna call it killing? Sure. But call it a fetus. A fetus that has less cognition than the McDonalds you ate for lunch.
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  173. There's currently 44,000 children in the system.
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  174. Because protected sex never fails right?
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  175. @Humanity Galatica Thats fine in theory. But to ignore your needs is unhealthy.
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  176.  @kingorange7739  Okay, so anyone who kills someone is self-defense should be prosecuted then. After all, your life being in danger doesn't justify murder.
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  177. Because everyone who is ever put in the system is adopted into a wanted loving home, right? Oh wait...
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  178.  @jessicatoward2282  No. I would have rather been aborted than suffer. And most people I know who were let down by the system wish the same. There are worse things than death.
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  179. @Humanity Galatica A fetus has no human rights legally until personhood is established, whether or not we agree with that. Human rights are not natural. They are granted to you by a government.
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  180.  @kuggacouragegx6093  Uhh...for the record, many schools don't even have sex ed. I wasn't taught sex ed in school. My parents had that talk with me. I didn't find out what a period was until I had it. I never was told about sex until I was 20's. Not that I didn't know what it was. But I didn't have sexual education. So to say its a lie is very inaccurate.
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  181. Apparently, neither do you.
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  182.  @arianna43  Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.
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  183.  @user-sh2rc5kc7x  You mean if abortion didn't exist as a medical procedure? Well it does, so your question is meaningless but I'd simply allow my body to self abort if I was so inclined.
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  184. That doesn't solve the issue.
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  185. No. You just support a person's right to choose what happens to their uterus. Please learn the definitions of words before using them.
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  186. Not 100% effective Are not available everywhere Cannot be used by everyone.
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  187. Explain to me how being abused and neglected by unfit parents leads rk happiness
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  188. There's no changing the mind of a deranged psychopath...
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  189. Please wake up in reality. If you really believe everyone born is placed in a "stable loving family", you're delusional. Also, adoption doesn't cover the problems with pregnancy. Also no. You are killing a fetus. Baby means post utero.
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  190. Yes. Yes we do. For a certain time period.
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  191.  @buzzlightyearlight1247  You are deranged and sociopathic,and if you truly feel that way, please get help
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  192. As if the reason for sex is pregnancy.
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  193.  @whitewhitewhite2446  Its not unless you are specifically having sex to procreate.
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  194. Yeah...go adopt one of the 44,000 children in the system then.
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  195.  @woobeewooo  Thats your opinion. I think you may find a different consensus if you ask people in/who have been in foster care.
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  196.  @woobeewooo  Yeah no. I respectfully disagree
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  197. @Humanity Galatica I like how you both assume that because someone is pro-choice (which most people actually are) you automatically assume they must be an unemployed lefist. You guys should get a proctologist to get your heads out of your asses.
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  198. You are also assuming that her family would take care of that child. Many families don't.
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  199.  @CornfordYT  Then you apparently don't know the definition of murder, since by definition, its not.
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  200. "Isn't living in poverty better than not existing?" That depends on who you ask. Many would rather die than suffer. Your right to life is not above someone else's right to liberty. By the way, an unborn fetus has no legal rights until a certain point, and that is long after the abortion period. If the fetus suddenly endangers the mothers life by lets say...growing somewhere other than the uterus or ripping the placenta, how is that the MOTHERS fault? Of course your Christian, which is hilariously ironic, since the Bible is NOT against abortion, outright CALLING for it. But we just ignore those verses right? No one has "more" rights than another unless you did something to lose those rights. Thats lunacy and is not what our country was founded on.
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  201.  @davidhernandez-sr9hg  State laws actually can prosecute you, even if you do something in another state. That's called extradition. And yes, they absolutely will do that. Alabama tried to, and if you read the law code, it would prosecute anyone who returned to the state after having an abortion. I'm not saying the state will come after you if you have the procedure done in another state. I'm saying the state can pursue legal action under the law if you then return to the state that abolished it. You had a conservative majority the past 4 years, and you still couldn't overturn it. Because its an inalienable right. You would not be able to outlaw abortion in any state without an ammendment to the Constitution. Because it is a Constitutional right. The courts don't just get to change the Constitution. It doesn't work that way. Even if its challenged, it wouldn't pass. There's a reason that police openly stated in Alabama that they would not enforce the abortion law. Its unconstitutional.
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  202. Yep. As a pro-choicer, still don't know why pro-choice uses this argument.
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  203. @Humanity Galatica Yeah, I respectfully disagree.
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  204. Federally, it depends on how far along she is. You cannot be charged with 2 deaths unless the woman is 5 months (20 weeks) or more. There are way more children in the system then there are parents who want them.
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  205. Except its not, except in certain circumstances. Its legally considered unlawful termination of a pregnancy.
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  206. So...hypocrite huh?
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  207. Yes...because that's always an option. Because its always a choice to have sex or develop medical complications, combined make up 3% of abortions. Which is millions of women. You know what's narcissistic? Thinking you have the right to control someone else's body. By the way, since you're so smart, did you know you can be anti-abortion and STILL be pro-choice? You do not put others before yourself in most situations. You can lie and pretend you do, but you don't. Know why? Because our brain is wired to do what's best for US first. Abortion is accepting the consequences. Its self realization that you fucked up and are unable to properly take care of a child. And guess what? Not all people believe human life is inherently valuable. A person who thinks a rape victim should keep a child that causes them daily trauma has clearly never been in that position. Because that is disgusting. Quit pretending to be smart. You don't know what murder means. You really want to stop abortions? Stop demonizing women who have them and focus on fixing the issues that cause them to occur in the first place.
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  208. Contraception is not available to everyone. And some woman can't take contraception. And yes, we are animals. And sometimes, we do struggle with controlling ourselves. Because we're animals.
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  209.  @protector9513  I'm not arguing you are at fault. Even if you take precautions you are at fault. Just because you're at fault doesn't mean you lose your right to bodily autonomy or should not have access to options on how to deal with the situation. The analogy I was making has nothing to do with fault. Regardless of who is at fault, you have options to deal with the situation. We are just animals who were lucky enough to have chromosome 2 fuse to where we developed a prefrontal cortex. There is no evidence that suggests that those that wait to have sex last longer. In fact, the opposite is true. Those that practoce safe sex learn before committing whether or not they are sexually compatable with their partner. It doesn't matter if it kills a human. So does slow codes, DNR'S, euthanasia, capital punishment, war and self defense. I never said we had no value. But your value isn't inherent. You aren't valuable just because you exist. Its not the pro-choice argument thats weak. Its the pro-life. I will never support the removal of a person's right to bodily autonomy.
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  210. The morning after pill is not available everywhere and is incredibly expensive. Plan B where I live is over $100, and people just simply cannot afford that.
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  211. Nope. Its killing fetuses. Who cannot feel in most situations.
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  212. Not all married people want children. And abstinence until marriage is a horrid idea in many cases. Protection should be pushed.
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  213. No it isn't. It CAN be unhealthy, but some people have a ridiculous libido, and to deny THAT is unhealthy.
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  214. No, because no one is pro-abortion. That implies that pro-choice is pushing for all pregnancies to end in abortion, which is not true. If anything, the more correct would be pro-choice and anti-choice. But even that is problematic.
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  215. No. No it isn't. In fact, its not a baby until after its born. Baby means post-utero. Also, no one is pro abortion.
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  216.  @blaecccuebbler7711  No she won't, and she legally can't sue a father who is no longer legally a father. If a father does not wish to provide for a child, he has two options. Fight for custody or cut his parental rights. But most men either don't know they can do that, or want to not pay child support and still receive the tax benefits of a child dependant they do nothing for.
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  217.  @blaecccuebbler7711  And a man can respond by then filing for custody, should he choose to do so. He can also hire a lawyer and go through the legal steps to have his rights to the child terminated. Being the biological father doesn't matter if you are not the legal father. Absolute nonsense. You do not understand how child support works at all. And guess what? Should he fight and win custody of children, guess who can also be sued for child support? Thats right. Now the woman has to pay. There is a lot of injustice towards men. There's also a lot of people who don't know the actual laws.
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  218. Those who are educated and are pro-choice know life begins at conception. We're also informed enough to know that life is not what most people value post utero.
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  219. For one, no one is pro-abortion. Secondly, I can defend being pro-choice pretty easily. You may say my arguments are horrible, but that's because you have bias. I can't find a legitimate argument for pro-life other than its human life and muh religion.
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  220. Yeah, lets pretend that all sex is a choice. But even so, consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. Period.
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  221.  @blaecccuebbler7711  Consenting to the act of sex is not consenting to the implantation of a zygote. Sex is not just for reproduction. Doing it doesn't mean a fetus can suddenly use me.
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  222. Yes...back when he hung people for sleeping with someone out of wedlock and children were lucky to live to adulthood. So much better...
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  223. Its called pro-choice because you get a choice in whether it can use your body for its development.
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  224.  @hello-sz7hp  That is your opinion
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  225. Since when is immense suffering better than never suffering at all?
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  226.  @maroonmaroonmaroon2985  Yes. Yes Indeed I do agree with that. You are entitled to not be forced to take any form of medication, including vaccines.
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  227. There is no such thing as fool proof contraception. An IUD is not fool proof. On top of that, thats an option not available to everyone. You won't talk about it because you would end up being a hypocrite.
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  228. Nope. You will see the same thing you see in other countries that have banned abortions. A higher death rate in women from botched abortions, a higher childbirth death rate, and people skipping the country to have one. The same people who want to ban abortion are usually those who don't believe in contraception. Don't know how you drew that conclusion.
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  229. @Humanity Galatica No, it's really not.
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  230. @Humanity Galatica No. Its not. Its not necessarily a bad or good thing.
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  231. @Humanity Galatica That's not true. I never said inherently. I said in general. We generally cause destruction with good intentions on civilization. But this planet can only support so many people for so long.
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  232. @Humanity Galatica You do realize that progress causes destruction right? They're two sides of the same coin. You will never see a time where we have moved off planet.
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  233.  @chungs6496  Losing brain cells from the truth, huh?
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  234.  @MadamDeified  It never stops being a cluster of cells.
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  235. You mean how they actually do it, or surgical abortions that are only done because of complications?
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  236.  @hakapelika7024  Let me pretend I believe that story. Even if I did, that has nothing to do with bodily autonomy.
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  237.  IssyFishyy  I had sex with my now husband. I also now have 2 other children.
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  238.  @jeproschepro9821  That's because I believe the pro-life position is actively harmful. And its unconstitutional.
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  239.  @kingorange7739  Ever think that maybe they're against abortion but support euthanasia? That would make them pro-choice. Supporting abortion in rape, incest and medical necessity would also make one pro-choice.
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  240. Sex is more than pregnancy. people will do what makes them feel better. Consent is everything.
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  241.  @jaysims1067  Please. No one believes the lie that most people would sacrifice their lives for others, especially at no benefit to them. Nothing wrong with being selfish. You come first in your own life.
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  242. Its not heartless to not be ignorant an be honest. Hell, every organic organism is essentially a clump of cells. That is probably "psycho" behavior to you because you lack any type of knowledge or experience of situational reality. You live in privlege with a roof over your head, family and friends who support and love you, and a place you can turn to if you're in trouble or need help. Not everyone has that and some people had to crawl through hell to get it and just don't place inherent value on life because they a) aren't hypocrites and b) have a different perspective on the world.
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  243. Because the only reason for sex is reproduction? No. I'll do what I want with my body just as you do.
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  244.  @Talos_The_King  No, we're asking you to get educated on the subject, because you clearly aren't if you think abortion is murder.
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  245.  @user-sh2rc5kc7x  When did I say that? I mean, biologically it is a cluster of cells, but so is all organic life. And it is a fetus. Baby is post utero. I am well aware what fetuses look like, and that simply doesn't change the argument. Murder is still a legal term that abortion doesn't apply to.
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  246. So go out and adopt one of the 45,000 waiting.
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  247. Do people know that putting your child into a broken system may NOT be the best option?
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  248.  @gasoline5071  That sounded like a nonsensical way of the comatose comparison. First of all, consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. Secondly, what are you asking me? It makes no sense.
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  249.  @mynameudste  No they aren't. They are just dependent on someone older caring for them. They are in no biologically dependent on anyone. A fetus is.
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  250.  @itzqwerty5576  He did mention religion, because he said "hell is a lot worse." So no. Fuck faith.
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  251.  @nbss  Except that makes no sense, because pro-choice offers both motherhood and adoption.
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  252.  @nbss  Because its not murder. Are you against DNR's? Slow Codes? Rapes? Ectopic Pregnancies? People die. Its a fact of life. And you do not get to live at the expense of someone else. I can't force you to donate blood, plasma, or organs even if it will save my life.
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  253. As if that always prevents pregnancy.
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  254. Someone's bias is showing.
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  255.  @dangereternally  Except it is. We're all clusters of cells. Thats a fact.
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  256. Its not irresponsible to have an abortion. Its irresponsible to bring a child into the world you know you cannot care for. And I'm sorry, but exluding rape victims makes you a hypocrite.
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  257. Because protection is 100% effective right...?
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  258. Simple. Late term abortions exclusively happen for medical reasons.
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  259.  @kingorange7739  So a fetus can just grow on its own without a womb or a nutrient supplier?
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  260.  @kingorange7739  Now you understand why scientists and lawmakers call it "her body". Because it cannot form without her body.
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  261.  @kingorange7739  And once again, no babies are murdered.
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  262. Both of which still have a failure rate. Also $150? Where did you get that figure? They range above $1000 on average without medical insurance.
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  263.  @macadamia668  No, I live in the US. That's the average cost of an IUD without medical insurance. Uhhh that's not true. I know several women who have had healthy pregnancies with an IUD.
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  264.  @tealtealteal7778  No one murders a child during an abortion. I have the right to my own body. The fetus does not have a right to my womb unless I allow it.
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  265. Because its that easy. Problem solved.
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  266. No hon. Thats not how words work.
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  267. Abstinence before marriage is a good way to go through a messy divorce. Protection works better than abstinence when it comes to teaching.
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  268. Except its not. If you want to make the argument that its killing a fetus, and therefore eliminating the potential for life, then that is true. But murder is a legal term with an established definition. And completely unjustified? Rape, medical problems, incest, abuse, financial instability, mental health issues etc. These are all perfectly justified reasons to have an abortion. Maybe not to you, but you aren't the one having it.
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  269. So you're not only against a woman's right, you're ignorant of the broken foster care system and a hypocrite.
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  270. @Humanity Galatica I'm perfectly fine with fixing things. Nor am I against life. I'm for equal rights, which means life = liberty.
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  271. Because every pregnancy just occurs through promiscuity right? And I'm sorry. Show me a fetus that can exist without the use of another person's uterus and then maybe you could argue its "their body". Sorry, but it's not.
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  272. There are plenty of children in the system that need homes. WAY more children than parents who want them. Adoption is entirely broken.
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  273. Thats still pro-choice.
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  274.  @Neptune523  Baby means post utero. Its a fetus until birth.
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  275.  @Neptune523  You know what else has seperate DNA? Tumors. They are also alive. Humans are not on some pedastal. If life is what should matter, then you should have that view across the board. And I doubt you do.
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  276.  @whitewhitewhite2446  I'm well aware. But if your argument that DNA bein different is what makes it a) human or b) not your body, then you're biologically wrong on both fronts.
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  277.  @Henry-gv3cy  Yes, if only it were that simple. We can just solve all problems that way. Guess what? Consent to sex is not conset to pregnancy. Two different scenarios happening. No, I'm not. I think personhood begins at sentience. That's where I feel the line is drawn.
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  278. Fetus. Not child. And just because you can't justify it doesn't mean others and the law can't either.
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  279. I am Pro Choice. So do I.
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  280.  @flowersmakemehappy834  Nope. They're exactly comparable in this context. If no one has the right to choose who lives and who dies, you should be against self-defense and the military. But you aren't, so its clearly situational.
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  281. Its literally not murder. Like...factually. Murder is a legal term. Saying its a clump of cells is also factually correct. All organic matter is just clumps of cells. Being human doesn't matter. And no. The Bible does not say its murder. The Bible entirely condones abortion. Try finiding a doctor that will tie your tubes before age 35. Many people do not have access to contraceptives. Condoms fail.
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  282.  @Readersrun777  Everyone is selfish, and there is nothing wrong with that. One has to take care of onself before they are in a position to take care of others. You say that as if having an abortion is not taking responsibility. But it is. Just as parenthood or adoption is. The brain is so complicated. Sometimes people care about things they shouldn't. Sometimes people don't care about things they should. In your own life, it is about you. YOU are the center of YOUR life. That's not a "tantrum" or being a "toddler". That is simply being realistic. So basically "anyone who doesn't want children shouldn't be allowed to have sex." That is ridiculous and unhelpful. Sex is (for the most part) a completely natural desire for the purpose of pleasure. Reproduction is a potential effect of sex, but consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy and childbirth. Here's another problem. Try finding a physician who will make those "medical changes" for no medical reason. I have severe endometriosis and fibroids, and still can't find a doctor willing to do a hysterectomy because I'm "too young". You can't just sign up for these procedures. They are not benign. I know many people that would take that route if it were an option. Just like many people would have more protected sex if birth control was more widely available. Again, in theory, your advice is sound. In practice, its unrealistic.
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  283. @Humanity Galatica Except its not. Murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another
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  284. Abortion isn't murder, so that doesn't say much.
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  285.  @edgeworth7750  Neither is a fetus. If we're granting personhood starting in the embryonic stage, then sperm would also be people, or you would not be morally consistent.
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  286. If only adoption were that simple and guaranteed the child a happy life. That is not reality, however.
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  287. Congratulations. I'm glad you were lucky enough to have the resources to be able to provide for your child. But not everyone has that, and while I don't know your stance on abortion, you almost come off as passive aggressive to those who chose to have an abortion. Might just be the way I'm interpreting it though.
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  288. @Jack Reacher Its not murder. That's not an opinion. That's a fact. (At least in the states). Abortion is taking responsibility. What would be irresponsible is to have the child and then neglect it because you couldn't care for it.
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  289. How'd you gather that? Sounds like projecting based on personal experience.
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  290. @Humanity Galatica Brain dead people are not dead. No physician says that. We call death based on heartbeat, pulse, circulation and brain activity. If a brain dead person is on life support, they are still alive. They're just not sentient. Kinda like a fetus. When did you start putting the marker on brain activity?
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  291.  @orangeorangeorange5075  With comments like these, we really should.
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  292. Men should certainly be involved with the conversation, but it IS all the woman's say. Its HER uterus.
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  293.  @danedds1068  Essentially, sure. They aren't going to change their opinion anyway. Explaining the difference means nothing to people.
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  294. The difference is sentience.
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  295. I think the point she was trying to make was its ultimately the woman's decision. The man should absolutely be involved, and should have his peace heard and considered, but the choice is ultimately hers. No court is going to give you, as a man, the right to force her to keep an unwanted pregnancy. Thats just not the system we live in.
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  296.  @lifeoftoast1864  You did say you were livid so. And no I'm not. Just a person interested in honest debate with people.
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  297. Let's pretend its that easy.
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  298.  @Sammy-bu4ms  Which no one is anti-death penalty for. If you think human life is sacred, I find that rather silly.
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  299.  @flowersmakemehappy834  I agree with pro-gun. Highly doubt you'd still be pro-life if someone you loved was raped, or the pregnancy was killing them.
    2
  300. How do you think DNA works lmao? Its literally half your DNA. Adoption is not always an option, so not only are you uninformed about biology, you know nothing of how the adoption process works. No one murders a baby in an abortion. Few people use it at as form of birth control.
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  301. @Humanity Galatica But you just said that's not legal. That's not adoption. That's child abandonment. What happened to caring about "lives of children?"
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  302. We all die, so I believe its quite strange to be anti-death.
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  303. We can make educated guesses based on current situations. We have statistics on this.
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  304. Yes it is. You have the right to liberty. That means no one gets to use any part of your body without your express consent.
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  305. Except the man still has options he can take. Either terminate his rights or fight for custody.
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  306. A fetus is a cluster of cells. That's just a fact. All organic life is clusters of cells. You actually know nothing about the law. Almost never is it a double homicide. It is unlawful termination of a pregnancy. Abortions do not prevent you from having children. If she can't have children, its not because she had abortions. Where? Where can someone go that proves the child will have a good quality of life? It doesn't exist. Because there is no guarantee.
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  307. A D & C procedure is ALSO done following an abortion. Perhaps that is what she meant.
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  308.  @annalesher3753  Ummm no. Abortions are almost never performed surgically. A medication is given that essentially forces the body to miscarry, and then a D&C is performed. Surgical abortions are exclusively done for medical necessity. I'm not sure what side of the spectrum you fall on, but I hope we can continue to learn.
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  309.  @annalesher3753  No, the medication doesn't fail. They're performed in late term abortions where the pill will not be effective. Late term abortions (that are legal at least) are exclusively done due to medical complications.
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  310. No one is pro-abortion. And I'm sorry, thats simply not true. The foster care and adoption systems are flooded with children. The supply far outweighs the demand. I have personally seen newborns turned away from agencies because they had no room. Also, adoption isn't free nor does it give a child the guarantee to grow up happy. There are worse things than death.
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  311. He doesn't need your mom to live. He's not biologically dependent on her. A fetus is. It needs a uterus and umbilical cord to continue to function (at the time of most abortions).
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  312.  @kingorange7739  No it can't. A child outside the womb is not biologically dependent on its moth for survival.
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  313. I think that's projection. They weren't really respectful (although they were more respectful than the last group) but they weren't educated. You seem biased.
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  314.  @anomaloustick4471  I'm well aware of that. But some are uncomfortable with that.
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  315.  @anomaloustick4471  I'm personally not uncomfortable. None of this changes the fact that abortion in protected under the Constitution. Its why you've never been able to overturn Roe vs Wade.
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  316.  @milonga_  Since when has value ever been placed on life as opposed to sentience? Why is it only in this instance that we ignore sentience in favor of life?
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  317. Being pro-life has nothing to do with guns. If it did, then anyone who was pro-life would have to be vegan, anti-gun, anti-death penalty and anti-military.
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  318.  @ryancomiskey4479  Except it doesn't have those rights. Because your rights are determined by a government. Not only that, those rights stop where another's rights begin. The fetuses right to life does not supersede the mother's right to liberty. Abortion isn't a moral issue. Stop making it one.
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  319.  @ryancomiskey4479  Well its not murder. So that point is irrelevant. Words have established definitions. My rights cannot infringe on yours. My rights cannot supersede yours, as you are another human being. I need a kidney to live, and you have a healthy kidney to give. A doctor cannot just take your kidney without consent only on the grounds that "well it will save a life." Thats the Constitution. Universal human rights don't exist. Nature doesn't care about humans or their rights. But society does. Rights are subjective based on the codes that the government decides, with the help of its people in a republic like the US. The right to life does not supersede liberty. All rights are CREATED EQUAL. You don't have an inherent right to be alive when that infringes on the rights of someone else, like your mother. Thats WHY the USSC upholds Roe vs Wade.
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  320. You know whats not 100% effective in preventing pregnancy? A condom.
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  321. Hormone therapy. Stress relief. Pain management. You do realize sex is more than procreation? Thats you. You do not and cannot speak for everyone.
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  322. Why does the truth hurt so bad? Calling it a cluster of cells is just biologically correct. All organic matter is clusters of cells. Doesn't make it less human.
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  323.  @user-sh2rc5kc7x  It isn't, any more than going out for a drive is consent for an accident to occur. I am all for abstinence if able. I am on board with protected sex, and think it needs to be talked about more. You can have a condom and still get said STD.
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  324.  @whyaskwhybuddry  Personally, I define a person as an individual with feelings who is a moral agent. A being capable of thought and emotion. I draw the line at sentience, and that I believe, is a more appropriate line than just life. Also, brain degradation doesn't mean you loose your personhood. That's a ridiculous notion. Someone who was brain dead? Sure. But someone who was simply deteriorating? No.
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  325.  @issuesthatmatter2825  Even assuming that every abortion is the result of consenting sex (which it isn't), consent to sex is NOT consent to pregnancy. So yes, you would be forcing a woman to give birth. And stop with the whole "abortion is convenient". It's not.
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  326. Yes. Say no to a person's right to choose what happens to their body. How about we drag you into an operating room then? I don't feel like being on dialysis anymore and need a kidney.
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  327. So only some people should have a right to their own organs hmm?
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  328. @Dwboutit It doesn't matter. If you outlaw abortions, you would have to outlaw all abortions. Adoption is not always free or an option.
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  329. Funny, considering "sin" only exists in the concept of a religion, and the Bible is certainly not against abortions.
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  330. Depends on how literally they take the Bible, since the Bible is by no means against abortion.
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  331.  @blueskybluesky3496  It also has commands about slaughtering people. That's why its an issue. Its contradictory.
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  332. Interesting how you believe that all of us are happy we were born. Ever consider that spme of us would have taken abortion?
    2
  333. That would be pro-choice.
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  334. Depends on what you mean as inconvenient. I could argue many abused children that are put up for adoption were because of "inconvenience". Why do people think death is the worst thing in the world?
    2
  335.  Snow Flake  Keep pretending abortion isn't taking responsibility. You know what's irresponsible? Birthing a child you then have to neglect because you cannot care for it.
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  336. You shouldn't. Go to court and voluntarily terminate your rights.
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  337. Telling people to not have sex doesn't work.
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  338. A fetus literally is the property of the mother. It does not exist without using her organs. Period.
    2
  339.  @neildodd1319  Yes it can. Of its mother it can. Someone else could take care of it. A fetus depends on the organ of another person. The person who's organ is used has say in what happens with it.
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  340. @Humanity Galatica Is that what you think? Or is that what you are trying to extrapolate from what I said?
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  341. Bottom line. You're a liar who tries to use dishonesty and emotions to guilt people.
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  342.  @joe2times381  Its not someone else's. A fetus is attached to me.
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  343.  IssyFishyy  You would have to believe life is inherently valuable. Which it isn't.
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  344.  @blaecccuebbler7711  No it isn't. Inherent means something your born with. In nature, value means nothing. You only have value because other people and yourself place that term on you. We evolved to exist here. The world didn't change to suit us. We changed with it. And without us, nothing is lost or gained. We got lucky on the fusion of chromosome 2. That's why our intelligence can be as high as it is. But being smart doesn't make you valuable. It may be pessimistic to you. Its just honesty to me
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  345. @Humanity Galatica I wouldn't argue that's a good thing, and we're not really that powerful. We're easily corrupted and die pathetically.
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  346.  IssyFishyy  I'm neither a nihilist nor an anarchist. I'm a realist. Nature does not care if you live or die. Period. You have value to yourself only if you can comprehend the concept and to other based on how you shape their lives. Its prescriptive. Not descriptive.
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  347. Not true. No one has inherent value. You're value is subjective based on yourself and the people around you. Welcome to reality.
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  348. Fetuses do not have rights. Just because you were lucky enough to get a happy life doesn't mean all of us were.
    2
  349. Adoption is certainly an option to be considered but it is NOT always an option. People are turned away, its not always free, and it doesn't guarantee a happy life. There are way more children in the system than there are parents to care for them.
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  350. Thats how a few men feel. But a vast majority of abortions occur because the man walks out.
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  351. And the problem with that is having that stance is anti-woman's rights. You are taking away a right to her organ and placing a fetuses life above hers, which grants it extra rights.
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  352.  IssyFishyy  You are actually, because you are giving the fetus the right to life and taking away her right to liberty.
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  353.  IssyFishyy  Putting the infant up for adoption doesn't matter. From the time she finds she's pregnant, the fetus is using her body. She has a right to her own uterus and what it is used for. Even if we granted personhood to the fetus. Being pregnant against one's will violates one's liberty.
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  354.  IssyFishyy  She is. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy, no matter how much you argue against that. It doesn't matter if she knew the consequences. You don't consent to a fetus using your organ? You have a right to deal with it as you see fit.
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  355.  IssyFishyy  Except its not. Just because I consent to sleep with you doesn't mean I consent for a fertilized embryo to attach to me. Doesn't matter what I was aware of during sex. Sex and implantation are two SEPERATE occurances.
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  356. The only way to 100% prevent pregnancy is to abstain from sex, and that goes against nature. Sure, there are origanizations who can help, but they're not always free or available. Adoption is absolutely broken, and I know children that would rather die than go back into the system. This is not black and white.
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  357. And we all know how much that work. Preaching abstinence doesn't stop people from having sex. Its just not effective
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  358. Because its that easy and monetary status can't just suddenly change overnight, right? Oh wait.
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  359. You people should really look up the definitions of words. You don't get to change them because you think something is icky.
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  360. He should. He just has no ultimate say. Not speaking of trans men, he is not the one who's body is being used. It is not his rights in question.
    2
  361.  @hello-sz7hp  Stop lying and calling a fetus a baby and no thank you. I have no desire to strip rights away from people.
    2
  362. Because people would have gotten upset over the fact that the adoption system is beyond broken.
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  363.  @skrys2236  The fact that a majority of kids will never find good homes and the state funding for adoption is mediocre at best? Do you know anything about the state of the foster care system?
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  364.  @kingorange7739  You can fight child support. Go to court and file for custody rights or sever parental rights.
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  365. How exactly does "reducing or taking away the rights of the dying and pregnant women" equate to winning?
    2
  366. A fetus is not a child, and the two are not comparable.
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  367.  @kingorange7739  Murder: the UNLAWFUL premeditated killing of one human being by another. See what you're doing? You are leaving out a key word to be dishonest. If self-defense is not unlawful, which it isn't, then it isn't murder. If abortion is not unlawful, WHICH IT ISN'T, it isn't murder. Murder is a LEGAL term. Stop being dishonest and conflating termination/killing with murder. Its irritating.
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  368.  @kingorange7739  You left out that part of the definition because you are being dishonest. Just because it was legal doesn't make it right or okay. Murder, as a term, is subjective. Killing is not. Murder is a legal term. Killing is a definitive term. Use the correct words. Abortion is killing. But it is not murder.
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  369.  @kingorange7739  Oh by the way, even if I granted you that much, the government does not recognize the unborn as a person (even though even I disagree with that). And malice? Really? Rarely is abortion performed out of malice. Its done because the woman feels that its necessary.
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  370.  @nathaniel8042  Except that isn't what happens. First trimester abortions are done via a pill and are removed via a D&C just like a miscarriage. Second and third trimester abortions are nearly exclusively done for medical reasons. You're either ill-informed or intentionally lying.
    2
  371. At a basic level, everyone is a cluster of cells. I agree with you that's a weak argument. However, being pro-choice does not mean you are pro-abortion. Life is not the issue. Sentience is. Rights are. You cannot give a fetus rights over the mother.
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  372.  @StormChaserJ  No, actually. I agree with you that is too late, which is what I said. Currently, that is the federal law. I believe abortion should be off the table when sentience is achieved. The problem is, by outlawing abortion, you are making the fetus supersede a woman's right.
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  373. Well, no offense, but then being "pro circumstance" would be hypocritical. If the fetus has value, why does that value auddenly change because the mother develops health complications, or because the fetus is conceived in a violent way? Abortion is either okay, or not.
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  374.  @hello-sz7hp  So since humans are animals, why can't we abuse them? Since you're pro animal abuse?
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  375.  @hello-sz7hp  But humans are animals. So what makes humans so special?
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  376.  @hello-sz7hp  Umm...no? We just live in reality.
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  377.  @VOTS666Uchiha  You can't care for it without having the means to care for it. Its wrong to set someone up to statistically fail. 80% of our prison population spent more than a year in foster care with over half being victims of child neglect. As a failed abortion and someone that had to go through hell to have any kind of life, I did NOT deserve this. You are NOT helping people.
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  378.  @VOTS666Uchiha  Because many people bring up the "give it up for adoption" argument. Yeah and? Then you would have found someone else and had a child with them. If your wife had been aborted, your life would not be any different in a grand sense. You can't care about things you never had. You people always brag about the success stories, but completely ignore those of us who failed. And we're the majority. That is vile. It is vile that you would rather see us suffer than just have faith that we MIGHT be successful. Try listening to CHILDREN scream that they wish they had been aborted.
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  379. Yeah, by being pro life, you are actually pro death. You're also anti-rights.
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  380.  @kingorange7739  Abortion isn't murder. And liberty and bodily autonomy are rights. Thats why Roe vs Wade exists.
    2
  381. Except an infant outside of the mother's womb could survive without the mother herself. Someone else could take care of it. A fetus on the other hand depends on the carrying mother for survival. The point isn't invalid. Its just not a very good argument.
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  382. While that's a poor argument, here's the difference. I'm sentient. A fetus is not at the time of most abortions.
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  383.  @idontknowanymore3074  The point was that typical "conservatives" are against abortions and are thus against women having free reign over their bodies.
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  384. That's not true in every state, nor does it guarantee a happy life for the child. Also, that doesn't help with the problem of the birth and pregnancy. Its not just about raising the child. Its everything involved as well.
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  385.  @Joyosh_86  There is no such thing as an "adoption center". You're trying to say foster care, because a private adoption isn't free. There are 44,000 new children every day needing a home. Its a tired lie that there are so many parents waiting and not enough children to adopt. Adoption doean't guarantee a quality life or happiness.
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  386.  @redredred8408  I have the sole ownership of my uterus. Period. And if you believe death is worse than suffering, you are privileged as hell.
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  387.  @karmen3652  I like how you agreed with a pro-choice person.
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  388.  @broncobama8091  I would argue that sentience should be the relevant point of topic and not life. Putting the value on life would make nearly every pro-lifer a hypocrite.
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  389. You're not pro-life. You're pro-choice.
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  390. There are plenty of places where contraception is not widely available.
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  391.  @tacoexpressSEEDEEholeeveryones  Nope. I think realizing you aren't fit to be a parent in that moment and time and killing a fetus is fine. Its not sentient and it doesn't feel. I fail to see how supporting access to a medical procedure means I need help. No one murders a kid. You have no problem with animals being slaughtered for food. They feel more than that fetus.
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  392. And you say that as if we had that active choice and if we did, would have chosen to be born. I can assure you, you are quite mistaken.
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  393.  Lizzie Allen  No, because they're sentient. It would make the most sense to make a careful decision about what to do and consider all options. Should you happen to choose abortion, it would make the most sense to terminate it before it gains sentience.
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  394.  Lizzie Allen  You know, thats an interesting question. Its almost as if we wouldn't have that problem if people weren't demonized and attacked for having an abortion to prevent that from happening in the first place.
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  395. Of course the pro-lifer would be projecting by using ad homonyms.
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  396. Men absolutely should be allowed to voice an opinion. But you do not have authority over my uterus. Period. I decide that. I don't get to dictate what happens to your body.
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  397.  @12Messenger  Because rape is always a choice right? Even though that only makes up 1% of abortions, thats MILLIONS of people. No, you have multiple options. Not have sex, protected sex, or unprotected sex. No. Its not that they're "hoes that don't want to give up the lifestyle". Its the simple fact that they don't have the means to raise a child. And that is their right.
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  398.  @julie8990  If they want a constructive debate with pro-life people, then they're pro-choice.
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  399. Yes, so?
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  400. @Mabel Wilson I understand people have strong opinions on topics. Especially one's such as these. What you think doesn't matter. Its not murder. Murder is a legal term. Is it killing? Yes. But it isn't murder. The root of this issue should be about preventing unwanted pregnancy in the first place.
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  401.  @lasheenapottinger7405  You couldn't possibly be more hypocritical then. If the fetuses life is inherently valuable, what difference does it make how it was conceived? And that fetus is depriving me of nutrients and energy. You do not get to use me for your survival without my consent. Period. I'm not entitled to your kidney any more than a fetus is entitled to my uterus.
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  402.  @maninedoow5895  If you are pro-life, and you claim you don't want to outlaw abortion, then you are in the VAST minority. The instant you say you want to outlaw abortion, you want to take away the rights of others. Being pro-life is, in fact, telling someone that you believe their decision on what happens with their own bodies is wrong. Period.
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  403. Wearing a condom doesn't mean you won't get pregnant.
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  404. I disagree. Most would rather die than live a needlessly painful and sad life.
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  405. And you're despicable if you set up a child for failure by birthing them when you cannot provide. Also, ypu realize pro-life doesn't just apply to abortion? Why don't the dying deserve the right to die on their terms?
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  406. Abortion is taking responsibility, just as motherhood and adoption is. Protection is not available everywhere and can be expensive. Its also not 100% effective. Having sex doesn't make you a skank. Also, the morning after pill is ALSO not available everywhere, expensive, and is not 100% effective.
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  407.  @livetolove3408  Abstinence does not work. People want to have sex. Its healthy for the body. I agree precautions should be taken, but consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.
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  408.  @design7054  That's simply because it is not their rights being infringed upon. As a woman, and as someone who has had an abortion, I 100% think a father's wishes should be heard, respected and considered. The ultimate decision is mine, but he should certainly be a part of the conversation.
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  409. If only it were that easy. Too bad sex ed is rarely taught in schools and not everyone has access to contraception.
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  410. Except its not. I get the choice over whether or not something can use my body.
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  411. Remember that the next time you eat a hamburger or step on a spider then. That's life as well. Why are you on a pedestal?
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  412. You're not being lied to about it being a clump of cells. All organic matter is a clump of cells on a basic level.
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  413.  @capricornicus1225  depends on what stage of the pregnancy you are in.
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  414. No one ever stops being a cluster of cells. All organic life is just clusters of cells. Other than that yeah. Its a weak argument.
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  415.  @edelweiss6768  I don't think any human has inherent value, therefore I don't think a child conceived in rape has any more value than anything else. That depends on the person of which that fetus belongs. Abortion is taking responsibility, whether or not you agree with it. 3% of abortions in the US are combined rape, incest, and medical complications. That's millions of women you want to take that right from. Learn to read.
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  416. You are not living in reality. All the love in the world won't protect you from nature or starvation.
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  417.  @michaelh404  Human rights, legally, only apply to sentient born individuals. We can argue all day whether or not that is moral. But that is the law, and you only have rights because a government says you do.
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  418.  @michaelh404  Depends on your definition of morality. But abortion isn't murder by definition so...
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  419.  @protector9513  Of course. I understand what the core of the pro-life movement is after, and I wish every child concieved could be loved and cared for. I really think information about safe sex and how to take steps to avoid pregnancy is something that needs to be talked about. Maybe then, we'd see an end to abortion.
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  420.  @protector9513  I'm not lucky. I wish I had been aborted. I was subjected to horrific trauma and abuse and I will never live a normal life because of it. Its a fetus, not a baby. And as awful as this may sound, you can't miss something you never had.
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  421.  @protector9513  That is only an opinion you hold and not an argument you can make. In situations such as mine, I have met far more people that would have rather been aborted. But that is just my experience, and why I don't use it as an argument. A fetus is a human, if we are talking about humans. A fetus is not a baby is what I said. Tumors have unique DNA as well, and are biologically classified as living. Does that mean I don't have the right to remove them? No. That's the problem with the DNA argument. I do not, personally, think humans are inherently special or valuable. I don't think value is a prescriptive term. And technically, fetus is any unborn mammal. It is life from implantation. But I don't think life should matter, nor do I think life is what we should place value on. I think sentience and personhood far outweighs life.
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  422.  @user-sh2rc5kc7x  We did not have sex education, but the fact that its a consquence means nothing. A consequence for deciding to go out for a drive is getting hit by a vehicle. Consequence just means an effect of something. The point is how you deal with the consequence. The fact that the brain has nothing to do with pregnancy is the entire point. You don't consent to pregnancy because you choose to have sex. So when pregnancy occurs, you choose how to deal with it.
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  423.  @user-sh2rc5kc7x  Yes it is. You lwave every day with the full knowledge that someone else could hit you. Accidents are consequences of driving. That doesn't make it your fault necessarily, but too many people don't bother to learn what words actually means. Pregnancy is exactly the same. Its a risk we take when we have sex. And just like traffic laws, contraception sometimes fails to protect us. So we have methods in place to deal with that outcome (parenthood, adoption or abortion.) You don't have to drive either. Its not a necessity. But we do it because it's enjoyable for us. There is no fullproof method to avoid pregnancy outside of surgery or abstinence. Humans are animals, and the fact ir, most of us desire sexual encounters. To deny these urges is unhealthy and can lead to horrid outcomes. Of course children come from sex. That means literally nothing.
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  424. Way to just assume we didn't want to be aborted
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  425.  @fire9042  It being right is your subjective opinion. I think its wrong to force an unfit mother to give birth. We also don't know that. Guess what another name for a miscarriage is? A self-abortion.
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  426. Life is not the issue.
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  427. Because that line of thinking works...
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  428. Even if we assume that the fetus has a right to life (which it legally doesn't), its rights cannot infringe on someone else's, like the woman's right to liberty. I am not entitled to your organ, even if your organ is the only thing that would save my life.
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  429.  @woobeewooo  And I agree. But that sentimentality doesn't apply to abortion.
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  430. I don't think pro-life people realize there are 44,000 children waiting to be adopted. Line up. There's plenty. Oh wait...families don't want them.
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  431. Good thing thats not how the Constitution works.
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  432. Its literally not. In many states, mine included, not only is birth control not free, its not available without a prescription. And on TOP of that, there are millions of women who CANNOT TAKE birth control.
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  433. If only we lived in your pefect utopian world where everyone had access to contraceptives and it was just as easy as "don't have sex."
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  434.  @peepeepoopoostudios3887  It literally is. Your uterus is yours. When you can show me a fetus that can live outside of the uterus of another individual, you'll have a point.
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  435. Because she's taking care of it alone and you're not supporting her. By the way, you don't. You don't want to pay child support? Get a lawyer and have your rights terminated. Or fight for custody.
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  436.  @hello-sz7hp  But you know abortion isn't murder and that you can be pro-choice and anti-abortion. You just want other people to bend your morals. Also, fetus. Not baby. A fetus that does not care.
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  437.  @maroonmaroonmaroon2985  Is that a rhetorical question?
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  438.  @insert_username1391  It doesn't care because it has no sentience nor capicity to care. Not saying embryonic development is not the beginning stage of life. It is. Yes, I know. And I wish I had been.
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  439. Because it is a right. Right to consent. Right to bodily autonomy. Right to happiness.
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  440. That is not a healthy mindset and leads to people doing disgusting things.
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  441. There is no such thing as pro-abortion. That implies that abortion should be the option for all women.
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  442.  Salsa Bila  You're joking right? You absoutely go to prison for involuntary manslaughter. Its a felony. It just carries a lesser sentence than other forms of homicide.
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  443.  Lizzie Allen  You mean those late-term abortions that are nearly always performed for medical reasons? Even that wouldn't make it murder. Murder is a legal term
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  444. Why do you need to have an abortion to support a right to bodily autonomy?
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  445.  @ChilesSupportTV  it is using her to develop its own body and depends on her for survival biologically. She must consent to it doing that.
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  446. Preaching abstinence has been proven to be ineffective. Humans want to have sex. Its healthy for the body. It isn't just for reproduction.
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  447. Life beginning at conception (or more accurately implantation if we are discussing human life) is irrelevant to the conversation.
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  448.  @blaecccuebbler7711  Sex can be for reproduction. But that is not the sole purpose of sex. People don't have sex to just reproduce. We're not in the 1800's. The "purpose" of sex is irrelevant except in the context of the people having it. Its not about being surprised that a fetus has implanted. Its about understanding that performing the act of intercourse does not automatically give permission for a zygote to use your uterus. Those are two separate steps.
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  449. @Humanity Galatica If you're not joking, there is seriously something wrong with you.
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  450.  @kovic199  You say that as if a fetus is capable of caring. Its not. If the outcome is statistically known, then you really have no case.
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  451.  @kovic199  Sure and I agree. However, they do not have that ability at the time of most abortions. The line, for me, should be drawn at sentience. No, because I'm not going to be dishonest and call it something it isn't.
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  452.  @matt1325  No, because they do not fit the definition of personhood, even though they are sentient. Personhood in humans is define by sentience. Also, no. That is not special pleading. Special pleading would be an exception to a universal principle.
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  453.  @matt1325  And I maintain that. There is no set description for "personhood". Its vaguely defined as "the status of being a person". Some philosophers have put forth criteria for personhood such as conciousness, reasoning, and self-awareness, none of which a fetus has before sentience. Personhood to me stems beyond the biological. It involves conciousness and rationality. I also think drawing the line at "life" is hypocritical, as most people don't place their value on life. They place it on how the living thing interacts and bonds with them, whether that be human or animal. Again, even if that was what I was doing (which you know isn't true), that still isn't special pleading.
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  454.  @matt1325  That's where you and I have the fundamental disagreement then. I don't think being human makes you special.
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  455.  @matt1325  I don't think people don't murder others because humans are special. I think they do it because they're empathetic to those that have a higher cognitive reasoning. I don't murder because I don't think murdering others presses society forward. Other animals are rational, but we don't see them as such. We have death with dignity, the death penalty, slow codes, DNR's and justified killing.
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  456.  @matt1325  That's not really true, especially when it comes to domesticated animals. Animals also experience empathy and just because they do not have have the cognition we do doesn't mean they can't or don't feel these things. Our morals evolved with us and are subjective. No, not necessarily, because even as a person, you don't have the right to live off of someone else. Now if there were artificial wombs that the fetus could develop in, then yes.
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  457. You people love just being liars and using emotionally inflammatory words when you know absolutely nothing. Sounds like you need to grow up.
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  458.  @gasoline5071  That's like saying its your fault if you get into a car accident because a potential risk of driving is someone hitting you. In both scenarios, you do not consent to your body being used. You have the right to bodily autonomy.
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  459.  @gasoline5071  You completely missed the point. Saying that a person must stay pregnant because they performed an act that got them pregnant is no different than saying a person must deal with their own medical treatment should they be in an accident, because they took the risk by driving. The point of bodily autonomy is that you can't force a person to give up their organ, even if it saves a life. You can't force me to give my uterus for a fetus anymore than I can force you to give me your kidney.
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  460.  @gasoline5071  Not saving someone's life when you have the opportunity to is killing them. You're just not the one who pulls the trigger. It is not my fault the fetus cannot grow and develop outside my uterus. The fetus dying is an unavoidable circumstance to termination of a pregnancy. Know what's inhumane? Allowing sentient children who can feel and experience to be abused and neglected by unfit parents who cannot care for them.
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  461.  @maroonmaroonmaroon2985  No, because math is something we prove. Morality however, is somethinfmg we cannot prove.
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  462. Yes you do. Because you have a right to your own body. Safe sex still fails.
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  463. So you hate people wanting to have rights to themselves and the dying want to die on their terms.
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  464. Okay. Then you should be responsible for taking care of me financially, since you took away my consent to pregnancy.
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  465. Sure. I'm down. I think its wrong to strip away rights from sentient people.
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  466. Because there's no reason for it to be mentioned. It would just be said that adoption isn't always an option and that the foster care system is already a mess.
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  467. @Humanity Galatica No they aren't. Foster care is any child under the jurisdiction of the state. This is both children removed from homes and those put up for adoption.
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  468. @Humanity Galatica That is...exactly what foster care is. It is a place for parents to either adopt children who don't have parents and where children are placed until their parents can legally get them back. You don't...honestly believe there's a difference right?
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  469.  @nmartini22  No, its not. Also, no one kills a baby.
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  470.  @nmartini22  Well, thats the honest response. Baby is post utero. Roll your eyes all you want, but don't lie about it to try and spin a narrative.
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  471.  @nmartini22  I never denied that. You're absolutely right. However, life isn't where we place value.
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  472. By US federal law, if a pregnant women is murdered when 5 months along or more, the prosecution can consider that a double homicide. Anything purposefully resulting in a fetuses death 5 months along or more carry the same murder charge as anyone, as the federal law acknowledges personhood.
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  473. That's why we have written statements to say exactly what your choice is should a medical accident occur. That is why DNR's and slow codes exist. That is why family has the option to deny medical intervention.
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  474.  @Thomas-er9se  If its to save a life, they are legally obligated to remove the limb. That is the oath they take as doctors. If you do not want medical intervention, write a will that states that.
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  475.  @Thomas-er9se  You have bodily autonomy even as a child. Not going to lie. Your questions are not clear, so I can't really answer you.
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  476.  @anomaloustick4471  Murder is the unlawful killing of one human being by another. You don't get to change the definition of a word to try a fit a narrative that you have. The argument isn't whether or not its a life. That's not arguable. It is. The argument is what's more important, life or sentience? Or is life more important than liberty?
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  477.  @anomaloustick4471  Yep. I'm fine with taking life. In fact, I take life every day. I place my value on sentience. When a human is sentient, that's where I draw the line. The choice is not mine to make for what any other woman does with her body.
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  478. Bacteria are made of living cells. So are the animals you eat. You aren't special just because you're human.
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  479. @Humanity Galatica Nope. Humans in general are destructive creatures.
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  480. @Humanity Galatica Because its just mathematically improbable. Not saying it COULDN'T happen, but I would certainly be confident in ssying it won't happen in our lifetime.
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  481. @Humanity Galatica It really isn't when you consider what data we have now and probility.
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  482. @Humanity Galatica That you and I agree on
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  483.  @SomeIsBest  That, even as a pro-choice woman, I can agree with.
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  484. Any organic living being is a cluster of cells. We're not special.
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  485. Because it can easily be shot down.
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  486.  @grimftl  You can't be both. The be pro-life is to be against abortion. You are not against abortion, therefore you are not pro-life. While I understand what you are trying to say, the definition of the term pro-life is "against abortion and euthanasia". You do not fit that definition.
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  487. I would argue life begins at implantation as opposed to fertilization.
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  488. Statement of fact though.
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  489.  @kingorange7739  And once again, its not murder. By the way, liberty and bodily autonomy are rights.
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  490.  @kingorange7739  You do realize that there are different degrees of murder right? They're not all premeditated, but they are all unlawful. You cannot call something murder when it is not unlawful. Otherwise, both the death penalty and war would be murder. So would self defense. Again, a fetus has no rights. Whether or not you agree with that is up to you. If I need a kidney to live, and you have a perfectly healthy kidney, should a doctor be allowed to remove that kidney without consent, since by not donating, you're infringing on my right to life? You seem to know very little about the law.
    2
  491. @Humanity Galatica I'm not. The Constitution does.
    2
  492. @Drewstar No, I don't think I am))
    2
  493. No, because that isn't being honest. Pro-abortion insinuates that you are for every pregnancy to end in abortion, which is only the opinion of anti-natilists. Not pro-choice. In fact, if we were to do that, it would be far more honest to call it pro-choice and anti-choice.
    2
  494. Sex is more than reproduction, and a person who denies their body that when they need it is damaging. Thats one thing that leads to sexual violence. Please, learn how definitions work and stop strawmanning. Please learn that abortion isn't murder. Please learn that abortion is taking responsibility, just as adoption and motherhood are. It is my right to terminate a pregnancy. My Constitutional right. No one has a right to use my body for anything unless I consent to it. Heartbeat doesn't matter. Brain activity does. If its legal, it can't be murder.
    2
  495. The only way to avoid getting pregnant is to not have sex. Unfortunately, the body wants sex for most people. Its healthy and is about more than reproduction.
    2
  496.  @dilloncole2527  Does that apply to rape and incest as well? Because if not, that makes you a hypocrite.
    2
  497.  @IssyFishyy  Legally, a fetus has no rights. But even if it did, its right to life does not supercede that of its mothers liberty. Period.
    2
  498. The cows and pigs you slaughter for food are living organisms. Should vegetarianism or veganism be mandated by law? What your implying is the right to life supercedes consent. In that case, I should have a right to take your vital organs without consent because you won't die and I need them to live. Thats not the way our laws work.
    2
  499. Since when does any medical profession judge life based on a heartbeat? We use brain activity.
    2
  500.  Snow Flake  We don't judge anything based on life. We judge it based on sentience. It is literally impossible for you to exist without taking life.
    2
  501.  Snow Flake  Its funny you should bring up organ donation, as you are trying to take away the right to one's own organs. Guess what? The next of kin for a dead person can have a doctor take that person's organs unless that person had a will specifically saying they didn't want their organs donated, even if that person was not an organ donor. So you're first argument falls apart. Actually, you do have to be sentient (at one point) to have legal Constitutional rights, because a fetus does not have personhood until that time. Your right to life cannot infringe on another person's liberty. I can't take a kidney from you just to save my life. You have to CONSENT for the procedure. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are your basic human rights, and they are EQUAL. You are operating under an OPINION that life has inherent value. That is simply your worldview. It is not a fact. I, for instance, don't think life has inherent value. Value is only understood in the context of the person who is giving the term. Its descriptive, not prescriptive. Abortion is a constitutional right that will never be overturned. Period. You've been trying for 40 years. Then you aren't pro-life by definition. Pro-life is against abortion regardless of circumstances. That would make you a hypocrite. If humans are inherently valuable, how does that fetus lose that value or that "right to life" just because it's conceived through rape? Then move. Move to a country that doesn't allow abortion. Because you will NEVER overturn it in the US. It is a CONSTITUTIONAL right.
    2
  502. For some, its not difficult to not have sex. But for others, ignoring their libido is damaging to their physical and mental health. This is why some people commit sexual violence. Because they have been told they must ignore that urge. There's no issue with men deciding laws. There is an issue though with men (really anyone) trying to take bodily autonomy rights away. When it gains sentience, usually around 12 to 13 weeks. Long after 96% of abortions.
    2
  503. But pro-life people are anti-choice. They do not want to give women the right to abort nor do they want to give the dying the choice to die on their terms.
    2
  504. Waiting to have sex until marriage is terrible advice.
    2
  505. Because people don't get proper education and forcing your sexual needs down is unhealthy.
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  506. You will never be ready. And you won't learn that until you're pregnant. By the way, thats not an unpopular opinion. Most pro-choicers believe in abstinence for as long as possible and then safe intercourse.
    2
  507. Good things facts don't care about your feelings. Abortion is not murder. Thats a fact. Not an opinion.
    2
  508. No, most women typically find out their pregnant between 5 to 7 weeks. Still just a cluster of cells, just like all organic life. Still her choice to abort it.
    2
  509. No state law claims that unlawful termination of a pregnancy is a homicide. Some states do consider the death of a fetus to be homicide based on the mitigating circumstances of the mother. I could grant life beginning at conception amd still argue for pro-choice.
    2
  510. Because condoms are 100% effective right?
    2
  511.  @user-sh2rc5kc7x  Because child by definition would be post utero, so it isn't a child. Its a fetus. The heartbeat you described is in no way what you think it is. A fetal heartbeat can't even be heard. Only seen. Its just the nerve endings that will eventually become the pacemaker. I never said the fetus doesn't die. But we don't define death on a heartbeat. We define it based on brain activity. In reality, all the heart is is a blood pump. Killing doesn't make something murder.
    2
  512.  @drakkar_night3346  That condom myth is way over stated. They're more between 87 and 92% effective. And you completely ignored the fact that some women cannot get an IUD or cannot take birth control. No your right. I just have a masters in Biology and understand that this issue goes a lot deeper than "don't have sex". Your reading comprehension is lacking.
    2
  513. @Humanity Galatica No, I'm just well versed in how negative thinking affects behavior, since that is my profession. I, myself, am asexual, and have no problem with abstinence because I do not get aroused.
    2
  514. Murder is murder. But abortion isn't murder. Its a constitutional right.
    2
  515. @jim carroll No. Its not. Murder has an established definition, which abortion does not fit under. God, if one exists, is certainly not against abortion. He actively performed it against both the Israelites and the Samarians. I don't believe in a God, a soul or an afterlife, so your preaching doesn't mean anything to me
    2
  516.  @ChanellMusic  You don't have to be on the left to be pro women's rights. If I no longer have a right to my uterus, then you should be forced to donate organs and blood to people.
    2
  517. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. Period.
    2
  518. Bad advice proven not to work.
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  519. Yes...because no one has ever gotten pregnant while using protection. And protection is available to everyone.
    2
  520. She's selfish and disgusting for having a D&C after a miscarriage?
    2
  521. No, we take drugs to destroy many "human strengths" otherwise illicit drugs wouldn'r exist. Have you ever considered that some women do not see the "ability to bring forth life" as a power? Or as anything special? No, most drugs are taken to affect how the mind views the world. And I'm sorry...what? Birth control simply helps regulate mestration and ovulation cycles. Ever heard of PCOS? You know what it does to your body? Produces toxins. You know the only way to cure that without an ovarectomy? Birth control. If there are "so many women who want to have a healthy pregnancy" be a surrogate. There is plenty of want for them. There are plenty of children who need parents like those women to adopt them. How about tackle that instead of shitting on people who DON'T want that?
    2
  522. There's a difference between medical death and clinical death. You're not pronounced dead when your heart stops, you're called a code blue. You're pronounced dead when brain shuts down.
    2
  523. Its not false. All organic lifeforms are clusters of cells at their most basic level.
    2
  524.  @matt1325  Lets pretend they do have value, which I don't believe. They would have equal value. I can give you some places you can contact me. You're very rational
    2
  525. Thinking abortion is murder is just objectively wrong. At least in the US. Denying a woman or the dying rights to do what is best for them is abhorrent as well, in my opinion.
    2
  526.  @baldoggie  Because Morality as a concept is entirely subjective and relative to culture and environment. Your not born with the knowledge "theft is wrong". You're taught that.
    2
  527.  @nbss  The point of that is "my life can't infringe on your body". My right to life does not mean more than your right to liberty. Its the same for a pregnant woman. She does not consent to a fetus using her uterus to develop. It is a violation of her rights. She has the right to get rid of it. Period. Also, abortion is not convenient. Its stressful, it has to be paid for out of pocket, and you're demonized by many for it. Umm no. Murder is a legal term. Abortion will never be murder. Quit changing the definitions of words to fit a narrative.
    2
  528. Because its not available everywhere? Because its expensive? Because some places can't get it without a prescription? Because some people can't take it? Yeah, thats not being pro-choice and you know it.
    2
  529. Terrible advice.
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  530. You do know thats exactly what the pro-choice movement is right? Its about opening up options for a woman to choose. Not just abortion.
    2
  531. How do you then show moral objectivity? How do you define it? You can't. Because it physically does not exist. And if its true that objective morality exists, then where does it come from? I hope you aren't Christan, because the Bible is perfectly okay with rape, slavery and murder. It demands it in some instances. You can have a subjective moral framework (i.e. secular humanism) that objective morals can then apply to. For example: Because I am a secular humanist, abusing women is objectively wrong. Because it objectively violates secular humanism. A non-sentient being is not capable of giving consent. In order to follow that reasoning, you would have to be vegan. Animals are sentient creatures able to feel emotion that do not give consent to be slaughtered for pallet pleasure. I doubt you would follow this philosophy though. I can name multiple people who I have talked to who wish they have been aborted. You cannot make that statement, because you do not know. If you aren't a relativist, you're a hypocrite.
    2
  532. 96% of abortions are done before the end of the first trimester, 82% of those being before 9 weeks. So yes, it is that early.
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  533.  IssyFishyy  Then its a good thing abortion isn't murder. But you wouldn't know that, since yoi can't be bothered to Google the definition of a word.
    2
  534.  IssyFishyy  Except its not. You people are dishonest and keep leaving out words. Murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. Yes, life medically begins at conception. But 2 things. 1. Abortion can't be murder because its not unlawful. And 2. Legally, the unborn is not considered a "human being" because it has not achieved personhood until long after most abortions. You don't get to change the definitions of words because you don't like them.
    2
  535. @Humanity Galatica You're being dishonest. the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. Murder is a legal term. Use it correctly
    2
  536.  @paigenelson5145  I am still amazed at the shocking amount of stupidity on the internet...
    2
  537. As someone who was abused by the state because she was put up for adoption, WEIGH YOUR OPTIONS! DO NOT SET UP YOU CHILD FOR STATISTICAL FAILURE! THERE ARE WORSE THINGS THAN DEATH!
    2
  538. So the truth hurts?
    2
  539.  @dangereternally  Fetuses aren't. Not at the time of most abortions
    2
  540. And what about putting them up for adoption doesn't mean they won't have a poor life? What happens if they never get adopted? Then you're kicked out at 18 with nothing.
    2
  541. God has yet to be proven to make anything.
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  542. I just love how you are so dishonest by deliberately leaving out words so that it makes you seem right. Good job.
    2
  543.  @kingorange7739  The body itself cannot choose that. The mind has to.
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  544.  @kingorange7739  The difference is consent.
    2
  545. Good thing you don't make the laws then. By the way, you're pro-choice and a hypocrite.
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  546.  @siduarah3911  Because you'll support abortion in a case of rape but not if a woman is unstable. Thats hypocritical. If the fetus is so special, and its life matters more than the mother, then she should be forced to keep it even if shes raped. Its not the fetuses fault, right? Be consistent.
    2
  547.  @matt1325  But that's not comparable. Because it does affect you. It affects you because you are potentially in danger from this killer. Abortion does not affect you. It may cause your emotions to kick in, but those are things you need to control. Have an honest conversation with pro-choice people. I think you'll find your heart is in the right place, but you are doing damage.
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  548. If attacks based on people's looks are the only arguments you have, you are extremely pathetic. But keep trying to take away rights from mothers and the dying. See where it goes.
    2
  549.  @z-manoverstreet  The fetuses right does not supersede the mother. Your rights stop where another persons rights starts.
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  550.  @cractrick9225  No, because abadoning a sentient child is not the same as aborting a fetus. Nice strawman though. Whether you choose to take responsibility by abortion, adoption or raising a child doesn't matter. All of those are responsible decisions. Recognize what your capable of and plot your best course of action
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  551. I have some answers. Did you know condoms only have an 85% effectiveness rate? Did you know that not having sex when you have a high libido is both physically and mentally unhealthy? Did you know that not everyone who gets pregnant had consenting sex? Did you know adoption is not an option available to everyone, unless you put it in foster care? Did you even know you can be pro-choice AND anti-abortion?
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  552. Yeah...except they often don't do what they claim to do. Especially financially. Should we also mention that STS was investigated for delivering "free" ultrasounds to pregnant woman that not only wasn't free, but were performed by unlicensed "clinicians" to where the state police had to shut it down?
    2
  553. If you're actually pro-choice, then you support a womans right to choose, including abortion. That doesn't mean you are pro-abortion.
    2
  554. Post abortion syndrome is not a recognized medical condition. Its a form of guilt tripping designed to prevent women from having an abortion.
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  555. So how does a fetus develop on its own then without my body? Oh right. It can't. Guess it is my body then.
    2
  556.  @Uhreallymydude  I'm sharing it with a potential life yes. But that is still my organ its using. I decide what happens to it until sentience is reached.
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  557.  @Uhreallymydude  Never once did I say it wasn't alive. It is. That jusy simply doesn't matter. It does not respond autonomously at the time of 96% of abortions because that abortion occurs before brain activity develops. It is my organ. No one has a right to use it unless I I consent to it. Period. By the way, very rarely is it a double homicide. A person can only be charged with a double homicide if certain conditions are met, such as the woman being pregnant longer than the abortion cutoff period, which is typically 20 weeks. Most will be charged with unlawful termination of a pregnancy.
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  558.  @Uhreallymydude  Well let's see. Bacteria are alive. Insects and pests are alive. Animals we slaughter for food is alive. So tell me again how life matters? To you, it matters because you find inherent value in human life. I do not. That is absolutely not how that works. The fetus's growth, development, and position are directly related to what the mother does over the course of her pregnancy. It grows and behaves with her until it develops its own brain and nervous system. When it gains sentience. It requires signals from the mother's body in order to absorb nutrition and develop until this occurs. this is why miscarriages happen. This is why fetuses cannot survive outside the uterus until a certain time. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. It needs my consent to live because it using my organ and my body to grow and develop. Abortion is taking responsibility, just as much as motherhood and adoption. It is recognizing you are not capable of being a parent and do not have the capabilities to handle a pregnancy. what would be irresponsible is having a child that you cannot care for and systematically abusing and neglecting them, something that is rampant around young mothers and in the foster care system. It is my organ alone. Something is growing inside it. Whether or not I keep it there is my choice. An abortion means I was not a parent to that child. Grow up. Death is hardly the worse thing in this world.
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  559. We didn't have a choice in that.
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  560. What's wrong with euthanasia? What's wrong with allowing people to have autonomy over their bodies?
    2
  561. Trans men identify as women. Or you wouldn't be trans.
    2
  562. Except its not killing a baby. The cows you eat are alive and have heartbeats. Who cares if its human? And it doesn't have rights.
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  563. Adoption isn't free. I doubt your country has a wait list years long. Come over to the US. There are way more children than parents.
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  564. Everyone is a "clump of cells". Thats just a biological fact. Actually no. Most abortions take place before the end of the first trimester.
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  565. Abstinence education does not work. Humans want sex. Its part of our nature.
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  566. Abortion is not murder. Could you stop with the dishonesty?
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  567.  @christiandong3778  A fetus, by both literal and medical definition, does not become a baby until after birth. And once again, I never said it wasn't human. It is. A human fetus. You are either really unintelligent and don't understand what I'm saying, or you're just being dishonest.
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  568. And he does. Terminate his parental rights.
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  569.  @legoongoon7548  No it isn't. Lice do not need a human to survive. And it does not have to be a different species to be a parasite. Genetic code doesn't matter. That's not the issue. You do not get to use another person's body without consent. A fetus' genetic code is 99% similar to yours and its father. I'm not saying it isn't different. But it is your body as its using your organ.
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  570. @Humanity Galatica You can't give scientific proof on morality. You also haven't given the same that life is moral. You don't have to subscribe to my morality. Morality is subjective.
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  571. @Humanity Galatica I never said it was immoral to make abortion illegal. Morality isn't the issue. We can't (or at least shouldn't) make abortion illegal because it would be a violation of the constitution.
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  572. @Humanity Galatica Because you must abide by the law of the country you live in. That has nothing to do with morality. It has to do with the benefits you get from living in a certain area. I don't argue from morality.
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  573. You can't just give your children away. Thats called child trafficking. You need to go through (and pay for) the pregnancy and the birth, and either give your child to the state (which guarantees them nothing) or pay for the legal work of a private adoption.
    2
  574.  @whitewhitewhite2446  Youtube doee that when the person you respond to deletes their comment
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  575.  @ishaman7397  Sure, but the advice not only isn't helpful, but does nothing after the fact. It also doesn't take away the right to abortion.
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  576.  @Henry-gv3cy  Sure, for you perhaps. Because you may not have a high libedo or a strong desire for sexual needs. But that isn't the case for everyone, and we have thousands of pages of research that shows the connection between an unhealthy sexual lifestyle and sexual violence. Most people have a desire and need to be intimate. No one is blaming anything on the fetus. I am simply stating that it doesn't get to use my body without my consent. Sex and pegnancy are two different actions. Consenting to one doesn't consent to the other. Doesn't work that way.
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  577. @Humanity Galatica Whatever the individual makes of it.
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  578. @Humanity Galatica In my opinion? Depends on how it affects other sentient people.
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  579.  @Henry-gv3cy  Except that anology doesn't work. Yes, you accept the risks associated with the action. But to compare the two in your view would be to say that you can't then treat the infection.
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  580. @Humanity Galatica You don't have to. You simply asked for my opinion, so I gave it you. You shouldn't have to listen. If you want to better yourself at the cost of others, fine. Just some people are going to take issue with it.
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  581.  @Henry-gv3cy  But your analogy doesn't work. A risk you take or a consequence of an action doesn't equal consent. And if you are arguing that consent to sex runs the risk of infection, then my point would be that abortion would be no different than treating the infection.
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  582. @Humanity Galatica So you find my opinion weird.
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  583. @Humanity Galatica Yeah and? That's what reality is. You can have an objective moral framework and then your morals could be objective. But morality itself never will be
    2
  584. @Humanity Galatica Because that's what you do anyways?
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  585. @Humanity Galatica That's a different viewpoint
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  586. @Humanity Galatica Morality is subjective to an individual
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  587. Actually, not supporting abortion is called anti-abortion. Many people claim to be pro-life when they aren't.
    2
  588. And what about when condoms break?
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  589.  Salsa Bila  Since when is it available to everyone? Since when can everyone take it? Since when is birth control 100% effective.
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  590. Biologically, sure. But its not the man's rights being violated. Its not the man's body being used (barring transgenders). So its the individual's who's it is final decision.
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  591. Except thats not pro-life. Thats pro-choice. Pro-life by defintion would be against abortion and euthanasia in all circumstances.
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  592. The right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
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  593. While its not as prominent as people like to think, it certainly does exist. And thats generally because employers tend to think women do less.
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  594.  @shadowdestroyer5679  Those fetuses didn't care. They were unable to care.
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  595. So how do you determine whether the abortion was a miscarriage or not? Oh right. You can't in most cases. So essentially, fuck constitutional rights.
    2
  596.  @JulianQuiamhor  Yep. I'm very passionate about people who are trying to take my right away from me. I'm not "triggered", I'm standing up for people's rights
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  597. And sex is for more than pregnancy. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.
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  598.  @akshaykamasamudram6983  Trans men are still men.
    2
  599. There's a difference between being human, in terms of species, and a being, a person with conscious thought. If you really think most people care if you destroy bald eagle eggs, you're wrong. We don't. Its illegal only because of some weird sense of national pride. Also, they aren't an endangered species, and havent been for years
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  600. Thats hypocritical then. If the fetus is human and deserves the right to live, then how does it suddenly lose that value just because its mother was raped? You either include all or exclude all.
    2
  601.  @sawderf741  Nope. Abortion is taking responsibility, as is parenthood and adoption. What is irresponsible is neglecting and abusing a child you are not prepared to care for.
    2
  602. Plan B is not a 99% effective rate. Its between 85 and 95% effective, and its not available everywhere. Also, its not the same price everywhere.
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  603.  IssyFishyy  A fetus is not recognized as a person, nor is the practice unlawful. Read the definition.
    2
  604.  @barbaraw1245  A uterus is an organ, and a fetus requires a uterus to live. That uterus is my right, and only gets used when I give consent. I think abortion should be cut off when sentience is achieved. 96% of abortions are performed before 13 weeks. 15 weeks at latest is a cutoff point.
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  605. @Jack Reacher Murder is the unlawful killing of one human being by another. You don't get to change the definition of a word because you don't like it. I get where you're coming from, but it's you who has a lot to learn. People's situations change overnight, and we don't live in some perfect reality. Hell, I'm demonized for having an abortion, and I was one of the ones who were in the minority of medical purposes. Hope to one day see a world where this doesn't have to be a concern for anyone.
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  606. @Jack Reacher Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.
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  607. Its not that it doesn't matter (not that a fetus can even make a choice) Its that the woman's choice matters as well. And if she is unfit, that child will be neglected.
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  608. No, actually. Most people are actually pro-choice. Because they make exceptions for the life of the mother and rape and take no issue with euthanasia. No one likes when an abortion happens. But it isn't murder. You'll never have the right to use my organ without consent. Its not murder now. Only hardcore pro lifers think he is.
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  609. No one forgets adoption exists. Its that the system is broken and children are often neglected and abused. Adoption does not guarantee a family nor happiness, unless you're referring to a private adoption, which costs money.
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  610. Abortion itself is inconvenient.
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  611. Yeah, so is eating shellfish and wearing mixed fabrics. Funny how God seems to love abortion though. Also, most people want an explanation as to why a person chooses to abort.
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  612. @Humanity Galatica The person is who's body is being used should and does have final say
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  613. A. Because its not a person, either philosophically or legally. Therefore it doesn't have rights. B. Being immoral is subjective.
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  614. No. They just understand that adoption isn't always an option.
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  615.  @mrstilton2654  Yes you can. Because you aren't opposed to abortion. Opposed: eager to prevent or put an end to; disapproving of or disagreeing with. If you are against abortions in most cases, then you're a hypocrite with less ground to stand on than those who are even pro-life. No, by definition you would be pro-choice. Because you aren't opposed to abortions in all circumstances. Once again, very hypocritical, but to each their own. I have no political leaning. I'm pro-choice because I believe in bodily autonomy. No other reason. I just don't like dishonest people who try to change the definition of a word because it makes them feel icky. There's no reason to be pro-life, so I don't see why your bothered by being pro-choice. You're on the correct side.
    2
  616.  @mrstilton2654  For the final time, I am not trying to direct your thoughts. I understand your position. I am simply telling you that based on your position, you are pro-choice. That is all. You don't get to split the cake. That would be dishonest. You are either one or the other. You, with your views, are pro-choice. If I asked you if you were against abortion, and your answer is anything other than a solid "yes" you are pro-choice. There's no cavyat to that. In the very definition even you gave, it did give an obligation. That obligation lies in the word "oppossed" which was something I tried to explain to you. You can be through. Not sure why we had this debate in the first place. You just seem to not understand definitions
    2
  617. You know what a miscarriage is called? A self-abortion.
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  618. And what about when those safety measures fail?
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  619. Because someone would have just brought uo how horrible the foster care system is.
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  620.  @mathildeyoung1823  I can understand that a human fetus is a human being and I'm still pro-choice.
    2
  621.  @mathildeyoung1823  I don't think abortion is convenient at all. I think its the lesser of two evils in a vast majority of circumstances.
    2
  622.  @kg7518  Yes I do. Sentience is the ability to think and feel subjectively. That is something we can measure by brain activity. So between 13-15 weeks.
    2
  623. Abortion is not murdering a child.
    2
  624.  @highfrequicyvibes9342  It's just literally not. Killing? Yes. Murder? No. There's a difference.
    2
  625.  @highfrequicyvibes9342  You do realize that killing is not inherently bad right?
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  626. Abortion is taking responsibility. What is irresponsible is to have a child you then neglect because you are incapable of taking care of it.
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  627. Because they don't want to admit that they're not only stepping on the women's rights, they're going to have to investigate and possibly jail miscarriages. Plus, they don't want that to happen to a family member. Hypocrites.
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  628. Then you are, by definition, pro-choice. Whether or not you want to be associated with either movement is up to you.
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  629. Who cares how it happened? Abd rapes, incest and medical conditions make up about 2.3% of abortions. Thats MILLIONS of people.
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  630. Currently 44,000 waiting. Take your pick.
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  631. The body naturally wants to have sex. Its for more than procreation. I agree with doing it safely, but preaching abstinence does not work. Biologically, yes. All organic matter is. The fetus isn't sentient at the time of most abortions however.
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  632. Pro-life by definition is against abortion at any stage for any reason and is also against euthanasia.
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  633.  @_ironhearted_5683  Yes, any stage.
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  634. Because they aren't sentient. Quit pretending you care about life. Unless your against meat, guns, capital punishment and the military, sentience and the fact that its human matters more to you than life.
    1
  635.  @benduffield1269  Its her body. Its her uterus. They should absolutely have a conversation together. But she ultimately has the final say.
    1
  636.  @lifeoftoast1864  So as a watcher you weren't livid? That makes no sense.
    1
  637. There's no dehumanizing occuring if you just call it what it is. A human fetus. Its bothering only if you think human life has intrinsic value.
    1
  638. Except that isn't the main purpose for sex. That's a very primitive/religious purpose for sex.
    1
  639. The Constitution begs to differ
    1
  640.  @navyavadlamudi1899  Uhh no. That is not true. Unless you are going through a private adoption, then they do go into foster care. Thats what a STATE ADOPTION is. Its really not as easy as you think it is.
    1
  641. Because they have no rights. We can argue that they should, but they don't. And even if they did, their rights would be equal to their mothers.
    1
  642.  @viki_kemp  And getting an abortion is just as responsible as raising or giving it up for adoption. As long as its using her organ to survive, it is her liberty it is violating.
    1
  643.  IssyFishyy  That's your opinion. You're entitled to it.
    1
  644.  IssyFishyy  Its not nihilism to find no inherent value in life. Value doesn't have to be inherent for it to mean something.
    1
  645.  @Nicolos117  A fetus has no right to life, if we're being honest. And even if it did, it would not overshadow a right to a woman's liberty. I doubt you know how most abortions are performed. And who cares if she aborts to pursue her career? That's a good thing. She needs to be able to support herselr before a child.
    1
  646.  @Nicolos117  Except it doesn't. A surgical abortion is very rarely used in the first trimester. A woman is given a medication that causes the body to abort a fetus, and the woman is then given a D&C as if she had a miscarriage. You can even ask for the remains back should you wish. I know several women, myself included, who have their aborted or miscarried children's remains. I actually agree that abortions should be more restrictive. Late second and third trimester abortions are nearly exclusively done for medical reasons. And what organizations are those? Please enlighten me. Because I'm sure they are, but have very limited resources. And they are certainly not available nationwide. Believing it is murder doesn't make it reality. Its's not. Murder is a legal term which abortion does not fit under. And yeah actually. If you force a woman to carry a pregnancy, you are violating her right to liberty. Just like even if a person is going to die, they are not entitled to another person's organ without consent.
    1
  647.  @Nicolos117  You are not responsible for any other lifeform. Period. It is not a mother's fault that a fetus cannot live outside of her uterus. You have a right to your uterus.
    1
  648.  @Nicolos117  Except you do when it is infringing on your right to liberty. Especially since a fetus has no rights
    1
  649.  @Nicolos117  You are sentient. A fetus is not. And again, no. Because a fetus doesn't have a right to liberty.
    1
  650.  @Nicolos117  people in a coma are sentient and have brain activity, though limited. Unless they are brain dead. In which, no. That's why a person or doctor can take someone off of life support.
    1
  651.  @Nicolos117  You only have rights because a government says you do. Whether or not you believe it has rights is up to you. Abortion has never been a moral issue for me. Its been a legal one.
    1
  652.  @Nicolos117  Morality is subjective.
    1
  653.  @viki_kemp  Well, personally, I would try to make both work. But yeah. I am. Beacuse you kind of need a career/income to take care of a child. But I also don't put value on life.
    1
  654.  @viki_kemp  Not everywhere there aren't. And they only have a certain number of funds. Quit pretending like there's all these programs willing to foot bills and help a mother raise a child post birth. That's just not reality.
    1
  655.  @viki_kemp  No it isn't and it also isn't always an option unless you give it to the state. I would rather have been aborted then ever had been born to an unfit mother or be in foster care. And there are thousands of children like me.
    1
  656. Well, at least you're respectful. But you still step on the rights of the pregnant and the dying.
    1
  657. No, it is absolutely about both. If you're truly pro-life by definition, you want to see abortion outlawed completely. And by the way, states already have a cutoff date. There's just no federal cutoff date.
    1
  658.  @nicoleclevenger1562  You are 99% genetically similar to your parents. We don't consider that unique un biology, but I'll grant you that premise philosophically. Also, will never exist again? You sure? Ever heard of twins? Adoption is not always an option. You being a surrogate mother means nothing. There's a legal process that has to be done for private adoptions, which you of all people know, isn't free.
    1
  659. @Humanity Galatica Except its not. And you know that. And if you don't, then you have 0 idea what a state or private adoption looks like.
    1
  660. @Humanity Galatica Except its not. If you don't have the money to pay for a lawyer for a private adoption, you can't do it. And the state could simply refuse to take the child because of a number of reasons. That leaves you stuck with it. So no, not always an option.
    1
  661. Yes he does. Don't sleep with someone who isn't protected. He also has just as many rights when that child is born as she does.
    1
  662.  @sunnyskies6118  Women can't back out of parenthood anymore than men can should they choose to have that child.
    1
  663. A baby outside the womb is not infringing on anothers rights. It is also not biologically dependent on another organism. The cluster of cells is a bad argument. But the difference is, I'm a sentient cluster of cells. A fetus is not.
    1
  664.  Fuck You censoring cunts  Yes it is. It falls under the right to liberty.
    1
  665.  Fuck You censoring cunts  No, I'm educated on why abortion at this point in time is necessity and I understand the Constitution. Nobody has the right to another person's organ, either born or unborn. That is why Roe vs Wade passed. That is why it has never been overturned. That is why we cannot mandate blood or organ donation.
    1
  666.  @tiffany7023  The right to life cannot infringe on someone else's rights. And if we're being technical, a fetus has no legal rights, something even I disagree with.
    1
  667.  @metus5831  Thats a mature response.
    1
  668.  Snow Flake  Thats not a first. Many others, including myself, have posted comments about wishing they had been aborted.
    1
  669.  @newax_productions2069  We do when it involves our own rights. Sorry if that hurts.
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  670.  @newax_productions2069  So show me a fetus that can exist and develop outside of a uterus please. Maybe then you may actually have a point.
    1
  671.  @newax_productions2069  Sounds like someone flunked biology or anatomy and physiology. Tell me, how is something "seperate" if it is literally attached to something? If it doesn't exist without being attached? Yeah, facts do suck. And that's why you try to use lies and falsities to spin a narrative. Because the outcome is something you dislike. No, women who get abortions are not murdering children. You know what another term for a miscarriage is? Thats right. A self abortion. Everything that is organic is "just cells". Keep talking big like that as if you wouldn't jump at an abortion if someone you loved wanted or needed one.
    1
  672.  @newax_productions2069  That isn't what you said. You said a fetus is a seperate entity. Its not. And as far as DNA is concerened, you are 99% similar to your parents. And that's not the issue of abortion in the first place. You do not have the right to use another person's organ without the consent of that person, even in cases of life and death. I don't have the right to your kidney just because I'll die without one unless you give your consent. The uterus is the same thing.
    1
  673.  @newax_productions2069  Abortions are not performed by ripping apart a fetus unless it is a late term abortion. Late term abortions are ONLY performed for medical necessity. 96% of abortions are performed before 13 weeks. They are done via a pill, which forces the body to miscarry. A D&C is then performed. Abortion is the termination of a fetus. Whether that is done by an outside force or the body itself.
    1
  674.  @newax_productions2069  It isn't seperate. Its biologically attached to a uterus until the umbilical cord is severed after birth. It does not exist with attachment to the uterine wall. Your genetics have slight differences, but you are 99% genetically the same as your parents. Your difference come more from brain development and chemistry then genetics (though genetics absolutely plays a role in that). Fetus is the medically correct term for any mammal in utero. That doesn't make it less human. Its just the correct term.
    1
  675.  @newax_productions2069  It isn't seperate until after birth. At least if you're referring to the literal definition of seperate. The fetus dies if seperated from the uterus before its developed. No, science is quite clear. I believe something is just misunderstood between the two of us in terms of communication. If you mean seperate as in metaphysically, then you would be correct. I.e. differing from its mother. I was meaning the literal definition of seperate. I.e. attached to something or dependant.
    1
  676.  @newax_productions2069  A "heartbeat" actually usually begins at 6 to 8 weeks, but to call it a heartbeat medically is still not really accurate. What you're actually hearing is a flutter. Its a cluster of cells that will act as the pacemaker for the heart when it develops. The heart is far from developed at four weeks. Murder is a legal term. Its not murder. Its not a baby. Its a fetus, which she has the right to get rid of up to a certain time, as it is infringing on her rights. I'm not pretending anything. You just don't seem to know how anatomy works. And by the way, we don't place the value on someone medically based on a heartbeat. That is based on brain activity.
    1
  677. Men can already do that by terminating their rights.
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  678. No. It is about my body. Specifically the right to use my body. And I have final say in that.
    1
  679.  @leviticuscornwall9631  So what's the argument?
    1
  680.  @matt1325  I have a question for you then. What definition of life are you looking for? A medical definition? A biological one? A metaphysical one? And are you asking for the definition of "life" or "living"?
    1
  681.  @djhallmighty  Your lack of intelligence astounds me.
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  682. That doesn't mean it isn't a cluster of cells. That's all organic matter.
    1
  683. Pro-life believes abortion and euthanasia are wrong because they terminate life, and usually think they should be outlawed. Pro-choice believes is should be up to the individual to make the best decision regarding their situation, even if it kills life.
    1
  684. Strawman argument.
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  685. That "baby's body" doesn't exist without being a parasite on me. Period. I decide what happens to it. No one has the right to my body without my consent. Heartbeat doesn't matter. The cow you ate for dinner had a heartbeat. What people care about is brain function. That should be the deciding line.
    1
  686.  @shiningstar2559  Those with alzheimers are still sentient and sapient persons. A fetus is not.
    1
  687.  @shiningstar2559  And? Most abortions take place before the end of the first trimester. And its because the brain is fuctional. Unlike a fetus who has no developed brainstem. And again, sentience matters.
    1
  688.  @danedds1068   @Dan Edds  As someone who works in the CJ field, I absolutely contest that rape has one of the higest conviction rates (unless of course, you are perhaps counting statutory rape). My point is that data, when making a point that its actually less likely women would die if we outlawed abortion, is false and does not account for the woman who died because of illegal abortions that went unreported. That's not dishonest. If 10 cases of rape are reported, just because only 4 are prosecuted, does not mean that 10 rapes did not occur. Unfortunately, there isn't always evidence, or people don't report for extended periods. A crime not reaching a conviction does not mean a crime did not occur. That's the issue. Actually, that depends entirely on the state. Lets say a pregnant woman is murdered. Do you know the charge that the vast majority of perpetrators would be charged with? Its not double homicide. Its unlawful termination of a pregnancy. The state courts grant the unborn children rights, but this very rarely occurs at the federal level. Sure, thats true. But that means nothing. Death row is something you spend 20 years on anyway. That law is essentially meaningless, because no human is executed in 9 months. The bottom line is, your rights stop where another's begin. We base those rights on sentience, something a fetus does not have. Abortion is a right. It will stop being a right only when a fetus does not need someone else's organ to grow and survive.
    1
  689.  @danedds1068  And as I said. Just because a crime is not prosecuted does not mean it did not occur. You seemed to assert that if it isn't prosecuted, it did not happen.
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  690.  @danedds1068  I understand that. The problem is, that doesn't mean he/she is. Activists use cases of clear faults in the justice system (on both sides) to get their points. There are very clear cases where a person was found innocent when they were not and vice versa. And it is not dishonest to site these situations as argument points.
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  691. Thats a strawman argument. Calling it a cluster of cells is just a fact. By the way, while it has the right to life. What you try to do is elevate that right above the rights of the mother.
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  692. Actually, in circumstances (abortion, comatose, and capital punishment) yes, other people can and do decide whether people live or not. And actually, legally yes I do have that right. I do not consent for a fetus to parasitize me. I decide what happens with MY body Also, abortion is not murder.
    1
  693. Because the human body wants sex and it isn't designed just for procreation (unless you are religious). Not that hard to understand.
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  694. No, you're still pro-choice. Pro-life is against abortion and euthanasia in ALL circumstances.
    1
  695.  Snow Flake  Keep pretending abortion is murder and living in your fantasy world where everything is just perfect.
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  696. Thats still thousands of people, and you represent a notion to cripple people for life based on your opinion. We have a word for people like you. "Sociopath".
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  697.  @mattahmann  "I'm an expert" So you claim. But you clearly aren't. There are many children in foster care and adoption centers to adopt. Why must it be newborns? That sounds selfish. I understand that it takes a while to adopt, as it is a legal process. "Adoption isn't worse than death". In your subjective opinion. I was a failed abortion who was horribly abused and mistreated by the system. I now hear every day children scream they wish they had been aborted.
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  698. Because they don't always protect against pregnancy or diseases, and they're uncomfortable on both ends from what I hear.
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  699. You mean morally? Because you know...women's rights are a thing. Like to liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And to bodily autonomy. Unless of course, you believe that certain rights trump others.
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  700. So is forcing a child to be born in terrible circumstances. I argue that abortion is the lessee of two evils
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  701. In reality, that number is minuscule. Most people opt to abort as a final option.
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  702.  @southforest2996  Do some research about the amount of children in the system waited to be adopted. Also, do some cost comparisons of abortion vs other methods.
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  703.  @southforest2996  You may have a different perspective if you were ever in foster care. I know what that feels like. A big reason for a woman choosing to abort is a lack of financial support. How do you expect them to not only get the neonatal care she needs, but raise a child? What is best for the child? How is neglecting and abusing a child because you cannot care for it the best thing for it? How is throwing it into a broken system that systematically abuses children the best for it? Why do you think the WORST thing in the world is death?
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  704.  @southforest2996  I am happy they found happiness. However, they are the minority. Believing in a chance is simply not reality. And I wish it was.
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  705. Abortion is responsible. And is a fetus is using my uterus against my consent, then I DO get to decide what happens to it.
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  706. Then, you aren't pro-life. You make exceptions for rape. Sex is about more than children. And there are people waiting to adopt? Then why are there currently 45,000 children waiting for parents? Because less and less people want kids.
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  707. What kind of so called saint would deliberately torture their patients? Oh wait... In all seriousness, reality. We live in reality. And the reality is, some people shouldn't be parents.
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  708. You're not in the middle. You're pro-choice.
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  709. Anecdotal evidence means nothing. Many other women, while saddened, are at ease with their abortions. They feel they made the correct decision.
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  710.  @mathildeyoung1823  That is only your subjective opinion.
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  711.  @mathildeyoung1823  Again, subjective opinion. There are many who don't think anything should have been shot. We have laws protecting animals just as we do for humans.
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  712.  @mathildeyoung1823  Actually, most people with common sense don't think the gorilla should have been shot at all, as it was not hurting the child nor was it posing an active risk. They shot it out of fear and to protect themselves from legal action. No we don't. We have a right to bodily autonomy and it is not right to strip that right away becauae you care more about life in general than quality of life.
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  713. @Kevin Koeppen Christianity, at least Biblically, is very much pro-choice.
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  714. @Kevin Koeppen No its not. Murder is a legal term.
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  715. @Kevin Koeppen Sure, that's accurate.
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  716. @Kevin Koeppen Sin only exists in the context of a God, but let's play devil's advocate. The God of the Bible only says killing is a sin in certain contexts. Abortion is not one of them, if you actually read the text.
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  717. @Kevin Koeppen Well, sin doesn't exist to me. And whether or not killing a human being is a sin depends on context, if we're speaking from the Bible.
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  718. @Kevin Koeppen Yeah no. I don't believe that. No fetus has control of my uterus. It's my decision.
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  719.  @dr.k.t.varughese3151  That depends entirely on how you interpret the Bible.
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  720.  @dr.k.t.varughese3151  I'm not interested in your interpretation because I don't believe any of it. I don't believe in God.
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  721.  @dr.k.t.varughese3151  You cannot prove a negative. The burden of proof is on you to prove that a God is there.
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  722.  IssyFishyy  I make no claim as an atheist. Only those who say "There is no God" would have burden of proof. I don't claim that.
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  723.  IssyFishyy  No I haven't. And I've always made that clear to you. In fact, in practically all of our debates, I stated "this being the case doesn't mean your God doesn't exist." I fully embrace that a God might exist. I just simply do not believe one does. That is not a claim.
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  724.  @debora8691  A pregnant woman who is injured and aborts the fetus warrants financial compensation only (to her husband), suggesting that the fetus is property, not a person (Exodus 21:22-25). • The gruesome priestly purity test to which a wife accused of adultery must submit will cause her to abort the fetus if she is guilty, indicating that the fetus does not possess a right to life (Numbers 5:11-31). • God enumerated his punishments for disobedience, including "cursed shall be the fruit of your womb" and "you will eat the fruit of your womb," directly contradicting sanctity-of-life claims (Deuteronomy 28:18,53). • Elisha's prophecy for soon-to-be King Hazael said he would attack the Israelites, burn their cities, crush the heads of their babies and rip open their pregnant women (2 Kings 8:12). • King Menahem of Israel destroyed Tiphsah (also called Tappuah) and the surrounding towns, killing all residents and ripping open pregnant women with the sword (2 Kings 15:16). • Isaiah prophesied doom for Babylon, including the murder of unborn children: "They will have no pity on the fruit of the womb" (Isaiah 13:18). • For worshiping idols, God declared that not one of his people would live, not a man, woman or child (not even babies in arms), again confuting assertions about the sanctity of life (Jeremiah 44:7-8). • God will punish the Israelites by destroying their unborn children, who will die at birth, or perish in the womb, or never even be conceived (Hosea 9:10-16). • For rebelling against God, Samaria's people will be killed, their babies will be dashed to death against the ground, and their pregnant women will be ripped open with a sword (Hosea 13:16). • Jesus did not express any special concern for unborn children during the anticipated end times: "Woe to pregnant women and those who are nursing" (Matthew 24:19).
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  725. Do you ever think maybe she said that because there are people who grew up in very poor conditions who outright state they wish they had been aborted? Those people exist.
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  726.  @katbuggie  yeah I know. I'm personally more of a brain person.
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  727. I can easily refute the claim that I'm killing a baby. Because its not. Its not a baby. Period. And whether or not its worse is your personal opinion. I think forced birth is worse than killing a non-sentient fetus.
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  728.  @DjPyro2010  I'm just correct to me. You are free to disagree with me.
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  729.  @tonyisnotdead  Fetus
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  730.  @tonyisnotdead  Yes.
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  731.  @anomaloustick4471  Nope. Its for any reason. Because the right to bodily autonomy falls under liberty. Even if we grant personhood to the fetus, you would be giving it extra rights if you outlawed abortion.
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  732.  @anomaloustick4471  And abortion isn't murder. I already responded to that post.
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  733.  @anomaloustick4471  Because a) the fetus is not recognized under law as human and b) abortion as a practice is not unlawful.
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  734.  @anomaloustick4471  And no. That doesn't matter as ALL states have mandates on abortion. The Supreme Court decided on a federal level that abortions are protected. The is a power left to the states.
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  735. @Nomarado Factions OST Except it is, because abortion falls under one's right to liberty. Even if I granted full personhood to a fetus (which the law does not) you do NOT get life at the expense of someone else's liberty.
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  736. @Nomarado Factions OST Liberty refers to using in any capacity another person's body. Show me a fetus that can grow without a uterus. You can't. You do not get to use a woman's uterus to develop without her consent. Period. Just as in I cannot force you to give me a kidney just because I need one to live.
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  737.  @Henry-gv3cy  And I stand by that. I didn't say they were wrong. I just questioned why this is the only scenario when we place value on a generalized biological life and not life in the metaphysical/psychological sense.
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  738.  @agent99._.53  Would help if your reply made sense. If that were true, why are DNR's a thing? Why is it up to the next of kin to remove someone from life support?
    1
  739.  @CharmednReady03  No because gun control wouldn't save anyone. Dismantling gun free zones and offering education in gun saftey to those who want it, and allowing them to carry, would stop shootings.
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  740. No, all of this comes down to whether you believe value is based on inherent life or sentience.
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  741. There is no "good case" on thr pro-life position. Its literally nothing but special pleading and ignorance of the issue. Not to mention anti-rights, both of women and the dying.
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  742. @Humanity Galatica Oh really? So what about those who are pro-choice and anti-abortion?
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  743. Biologically, we are all a cluster of cells. So if you wanna be technical, she's right. Granting personhood to a fetus doesn't mean it isn't a cluster of cells.
    1
  744.  @ourblessedtribe9284  At our most basic fundamental level, we are still clusters of cells. Cells make up the building blocks of life. Also no, clusters are groups of cells that DO work in conjunction with each other.
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  745.  @yerboishrek2871  You know what's terrible advice and is detrimental to physical and psychological health? Not having sex when your body wants it.
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  746.  @jaycestetson2899  Because murder by its established definition is unlawful, which abortion is not. Now, if you live in an area where abortion is illegal, then yes. It would be murder. That isn't the case here. Killing, or termination of development which is what abortion technically is, does not necessarily equate to murder.
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  747.  @jaycestetson2899  Because I know first hand what its like to try and live in an unfit environment. You are advocating for quantity of life over quality of life, and that is vile in my opinion.
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  748.  @jaycestetson2899  To each their own. But there are way worse things than death
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  749.  @matt1325  In this case you certainly can. The "effect" of sex isn't implantation of an embryo. All sex potentially does is fertilize the embryo. That implantation is something you have to consent to, which is why Roe vs Wade has never been overturned. The implantion and growth of the embryo is not an effect. Only the fertilization of the egg is. Your analogy doesn't work.
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  750.  @matt1325  Because the act of implantation and subsequent growth is an action independent of the intercourse. Maybe saying it isn't an effect is confusing, because it is. But its still an action that involves the use of someone else's body, and that action must be done with consent. If someone does not consent to another being using they're organ, they have every right to take steps against it. A fetus DOESN'T have the right to life (legally speaking) and even if it did, it's right to life would be equal to the woman's right to liberty. I don't get to take an organ from you just because I'll die without it.
    1
  751.  @matt1325  Whether or not you want to think of it that way doesn't change reality. Nothing has the right to use your organ or body without your consent. Agreeing to have sex with someone is not saying "I'm agreeing to letting a fertilized egg emplant in my uterus and feed off me for 9 months." These two actions are seperate. And if were just as simple as fertilized egg=baby, then the body wouldn't abort 50% of pregnancies on its own. You're also suggesting with that argument that all sex ends in pregnancy. And it doesn't. These are two separate actions and should be treated as such.
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  752. You know you have a right to have your aborted fetuses right? I know several familes that have the remains.
    1
  753.  @gasoline5071  Are you asking about a comatose patient? Because the answer to that is yes. It is absolutely legal to remove a person off of life support at the discretion of the doctors/next of kin/power of attorney. If your asking about a person only surviving by living off you, then also yes. It would be at your descretion to remove them.
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  754. First off, there's nothing wrong with being hedonistic. Humans and animals in general are. Second, a majority of the population suffer mental illness. There are both pro-choice and pro-life people in that category. An unborn fetus cannot make a choice. It had no conciousness nor sentience at the time of a majority of non-medical abortions. How about talking to people who wish they had been aborted. Who's lives were fucked up so badly by the state and "pro-life" people, that they wish to die.
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  755. Why place so much value on the heartbeat and not brain activity?
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  756. No, abortion is not murder. It does not fit the established definition of murder.
    1
  757.  @person7340  Except murder is a word that does not have multiple definitions except for people who like to make it up. Murder is only a legal term. It has no other meaning. Killing would be an accurate term, but killing doesn't always equate to murder.
    1
  758.  @person7340  That is not a definition recognized by any professional. Its like people who changed the word "literally" to mean the exact opposite of what the word means. The way people use the English language now is sad.
    1
  759.  @person7340  You provided a defintion that anyone can post because it fits with their opinion. The word "murder" only has ONE established definition, and it is a legal one. "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another." Regardless of any other definitions you want to randomly make up, this is the only established one. Murder has no meaning outside of law, because its a LEGAL TERM.
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  760.  @person7340   You provided a citation from a dictionary anyone can edit. Thats like using urban dictionary as a source. It doesn't have a non-legal definition. Killing does. Murder doesn't. Anyone can post on yourdictionary just like anyone can post on urban dictionary. Go into an actual copy of a paperback dictionary and find me a non-legal definition of the term murder. It doesn't exist. I won't concede a point that isn't true.
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  761. Because there are plenty of children waiting on adoption now.
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  762. They can. Sign away your parental rights then.
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  763.  @stevewhite2627  If he's considered that in the court of public opinion, so what? Shouldn't have had sex with a woman he wasn't committed too. A man can say no just as much as a woman can. And no. If you sign away your parental rights, you do not have to legally pay child support, because your role as father is severed. You will, however, not be able to gain any privileges anymore (such as taxes, insurance deductions etc.)
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  764.  @stevewhite2627  You do not have to pay child support if you sign away your rights. You are relinquishing your responsibilities at that point. Also, she probably should have taken precautions. The reason for abortion however has to do with a woman's constitutional right to liberty.
    1
  765.  @stevewhite2627  Not if you sign your rights away. You seriously have no idea how US law works, do you?
    1
  766.  @stevewhite2627  Well men can't have the right to abort (barring transgendered men) because they don't have a uterus. And yes, I do. Since its my job.
    1
  767.  @stevewhite2627  No they don't. They are not under any legal obligation to carry that child should they not want to. Go to the court and dissolve your parental rights.
    1
  768. D&C's are often performed after an abortion as well. Or the mother is induced into labor and then can choose what she does with the fetus. I know several families who have kept the remains of the children they aborted. Most abortions are not performed surgically.
    1
  769.  @meganhamilton6211  The problem is outlawing abortions will group miscarriages with abortions. You can force your body to miscarry.
    1
  770. Except most abortions do not happen that way. Only late term abortions are done like that, and they are done almost exclusively for medical reasons. And considering pro-life also means being against someone's right to die, no. I still wouldn't be pro-life.
    1
  771.  @tiffany7023  No actually. They are still incorrect. Most abortions are done via a pill and the woman is then given a D&C, just as she would if she had miscarried. Late term abortions are nearly exclusively done for medical reasons, because that is the law. And no. Thats not what those laws say. You can abort it only if it has a medical defect, or if the mother develops birth complications. I suggest actually reading what those laws say.
    1
  772. A person or a human? Its always human. It becomes a person, by definition, when it meets the criteria. There's legal personhood and theres philosophical personhood. Legal would be after birth. I would say philosophically after sentience is achieved (around 14-15 weeks)
    1
  773. That is a downright disgusting assumption.
    1
  774. Because abortion is taking responsibility. Its realizing you cannot care for a child and opting to terminate it as opposed to raise it in a less than ideal environment.
    1
  775. Who knew morality was so subjective? What a huge shock...
    1
  776. But by saying that, you are elevating a right to life above a right to liberty of one's body. By that logic, people should be FORCED to donate blood and organs, even at costs to them.
    1
  777.  @alanbourbeau24  And you also wouldn't have cared.
    1
  778.  IssyFishyy  That isn't true. Many people don't have a support system. Many children are homeless and steal for food. They are not biologically dependent on someone. A fetus is.
    1
  779.  IssyFishyy  They don't. The depend on other humans. They don't necessarily depend on parents. If it uses your organ, its your body. Doesn't matter why. Not the mother's fault a fetus cannot live outside the uterus
    1
  780. @Humanity Galatica Because abortion isn't murder.
    1
  781.  @sadtoast6835  I never said it wasn't alive. It is alive. Being alive doesn't determine what murder is. Murder is a legal term. Killing doesn't equate to murder is all cases
    1
  782.  @sadtoast6835  Okay so here's the issue. One, abortion is not unlawful. At least in the states. Two, I agree. Biologically it is a human being. But the law doesn't recognize it as one except in late stages and after birth. You don't get to change the definition of a word because you disagree.
    1
  783.  @sadtoast6835  But you are. Because by that definition, abortion would not be murder.
    1
  784.  @tacoexpressSEEDEEholeeveryones  No. No its not.
    1
  785.  @tacoexpressSEEDEEholeeveryones  No, I'm just educated and can be bothered to look up the definition of a word. I don't need to try and twist it to manipulate people into feeling bad or shameful. If anyone should be ashamed, it's manipulative liars like you
    1
  786.  @tacoexpressSEEDEEholeeveryones  Yes you are. You are being deliberately dishonest by calling abortion murder.
    1
  787.  @tacoexpressSEEDEEholeeveryones  Sure. When they're developed enough. But late term abortions are illegal. 96% of abortions take place before the first trimester. You have not seen a 12 week old fetus survive birth. Manipulative liar.
    1
  788. So is setting a child up for failure and calling for the removal of the right to bodily autonomy.
    1
  789.  @joe2times381  Because that "someone" is a non-sentient fetus.
    1
  790. Now if only it were that easy for everyone...
    1
  791. Because the foster care system is already flooded with children who need homes. No, they don't "cut up the baby" unless you are having an illegal late-term abortion, which is illegal on a federal level. Most abortions are done via medication. The fetus is then delivered as you would with a stillborn or is pushed out via menstruation depending on how far along you are. Again, if families can't have children, there are plenty of them waiting. No form of birth control or condoms is 100% effective against getting pregnant. Try finding a doctor that will tie your tubes before your mid to late 30s barring medical exemptions. Yeah, because self defense will always stop a rapist.
    1
  792. @Humanity Galatica No matter how much you wish it wasn't true, human kind cares more for itself than for its collective. And that is not a bad thing. The only way one can benefit a society is to have personal happiness. The self has always and will always come first.
    1
  793.  IssyFishyy  Yeah, people say that. And then an actual situation comes up, and they choose self preservation. Which isn't wrong necessarily. I'm not saying you wouldn't, but I also don't have confidence you would.
    1
  794.  IssyFishyy  That's why I'm not saying you wouldn't. But there are also people who say they'll do that and don't. Humans have an instinct for self preservation. Thinking of yourself isn't inherently selfish or a bad thing.
    1
  795.  IssyFishyy  You can be. But not if you don't want said fetus.
    1
  796.  IssyFishyy  Every human is selfish. To claim otherwise is just a lie. That's why people choose abortion. To prevent a child from suffering. Just as you put a suffering animal down, or how some states allow people to legally end their own lives. Death should not be this horrid taboo thing.
    1
  797.  @jacobsecrist728  If its something that scares you, you need to grow up. Death is just something thats a fact of life. Because death is better than suffering in my opinion. And at a time where a fetus isn't sentient, I believe abortion should be a resort after careful consideration.
    1
  798. @Humanity Galatica Not true. But of course you would have that worldview. Nothing wrong with putting yourself first.
    1
  799. @Humanity Galatica Also objectively false. With or without a collective, I am me. I need no one else.
    1
  800. @Humanity Galatica Sure, perhaps if I was a newborn, or wasn't acclimated to the world, I would die without help. But as an adult, I no longer need that. If society collapsed tomorrow, I would be just fine. I raised myself more than any collective did. And I did a fine job. I am capable of both working with others for the betterment of a group, and working alone for the betterment of myself. Truth outside of consciousness doesn't exist at all. You can't know truth without consciousness.
    1
  801. @Humanity Galatica I am well aware of that.
    1
  802. @Humanity Galatica No, not really. I am only bound to myself, and those that I love and protect.
    1
  803. @Humanity Galatica Yeah, except most people won't actually do that, because people have an inherent sense of self preservation. By the way, its fully possible to care for both.
    1
  804. @Humanity Galatica Yeah, and yet most people will not join the military, nor agree with the draft.
    1
  805. @Humanity Galatica That is the exception to the rule. I'm not saying people do not want to serve. I'm saying many more do not feel that way, especially for a cause they don't believe in, like Vietnam.
    1
  806. @Humanity Galatica Yeah sure. Whatever you say.
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  807. The aborted fetal tissue used in vaccines are still from the original sample taken in the 1960's. Get over it.
    1
  808. I've never met anyone that finds empowerment with the act of abortion. They find empowerment knowing that they have the right to choose whats best for them and their fetus.
    1
  809.  @blubarie  Its wrong in your subjective opinion. Forcing an unfit mother to give birth, in my opinion, is wrong.
    1
  810. And here we have an example of someone who has no idea what murder is.
    1
  811.  @britishmgtow7251  A fetus isn't a baby for one. I would even grant you that abortion is evil. I however would argue that its a necessary evil, and you cannot place rights above another. Your rights stop where anothers begin. To resort to name calling is childish. By the way, for you to not be a hypocrite, you must also be vegan, anti-gun, anti-death penalty and anti-military. Otherwise, you don't care about life.
    1
  812.  @britishmgtow7251  As someone who was tortured by a broken system, I don't think you and I have the same opinion because of upbringing. Perhaps if you knew what it was like to wish you had been a successful abortion, you might see a different perspective.
    1
  813. So children and the dying should just be forced to exist in a miserable world where they are tormented. Yeah. How very pro-life...
    1
  814. I don't disagree with you, but you are advocating pro-choice. You cannot be both. They're antonyms. You cannot change the definition of a word to suit a narrative. Thats dishonest.
    1
  815.  @ch3rryclashhh  That I think is the best position to have
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  816. So does eating a hamburger.
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  817. No, people are just correct when they say it isn't murdering, unless you live somewhere where abortion is illegal. Murder is a legal term, and even if I grant full personhood of the fetus from conception, its still not unlawful. You always fall back on ad homenims when you have nothing intelligent to say.
    1
  818.  @suppercharge1  Murder: The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. So let's ignore the fact that LEGALLY. a fetus isn't considered human. Is abortion illegal? No. Therefore, it can't be murder. I think its your brain that's less developed, since you can't seem to comprehend a simple definition. Also, guess what? Did you know you can be anti-abortion AND pro-choice? Probably not. Since you can't seem to access that underdeveloped brain.
    1
  819. Pro-choice doesn't equal pro-abortion. Hell, I know people who are against abortion but still pro-choice.
    1
  820. @Humanity Galatica Then please go to the nearest hospital. I need a kidney.
    1
  821.  @anomaloustick4471  Because the previous commenter is claiming that one should not have the right to do what they want with their bodies. If they stand by that sentiment, they should have no issue with other people demanding them to do things with their bodies they may not want.
    1
  822.  @anomaloustick4471  The fetus is using your organ for survival. I'm sorry, but it is her body. It does not exist without access to organs the mother holds. She decides what happens with those organs. Period.
    1
  823.  @anomaloustick4471  DNA does not matter. And genetically, we don't call them unique. Unless you are born with a genetic defect, you are genetically 99% similar to your parents. And identical twins have the same genetic coding. The fact that it uses another person IN ANY capacity is the issue here. The fact that it is BIOLOGICALLY dependent on another. We have a term for that. Its called a parasite.
    1
  824. @Humanity Galatica Oh nice. Let's just strip all rights from humans because a court deemed them guilty of something.
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  825. @Humanity Galatica As much as you wish that was the case, no. They don't. If thats legitimately the way you think, you need serious psychiatric help.
    1
  826. Because unless its a private adoption, which is super expensive, foster care is broken. Odds are they won't have any quality of life as adults.
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  827. Thats sad.
    1
  828.  @fbryn0688  He does has rights over his child. After its born. He has no rights to a fetus in utero because its her bodily autonomy. Life isn't fair.
    1
  829.  @skrys2236  You placed your child up for a private adoption then, which is a legal procedure handled by a lawyer. Do you honestly think a woman who cannot afford things for herself would be able to afford a lawyer? No. The vast majority of adoptions are state adoptions, where an unwanted child is placed in a adoption center managed by the state until a family decides to adopt it. There are over 44,000 children waiting to be adopted and the vast majority never will be. They will be let go at 18. It is an option. But its an option that dosen't guarantee happiness, health or success. I was a victim of this, and now suffer with lifelong disabilities.
    1
  830. Its someone that is qualified as a physician but doesn't work as a physician. Consultant for instance.
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  831. That is not a realistic situation in the slightest.
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  832. Because its implanted into her uterus and at the time of most abortions, ceases to exist without the use of her organs. The heartbeat shouldn't be your priority. It should be brain activity. What makes us "human" is our brain, not our heart. "Sombody who is completely reliant on the machines cannot just be taken off those machines..." Yes they can. When someone is comatose, without a power of attorney, that choice strictly falls on the next of kin. DNR's and Slow Codes also exist. The default when it comes to the use of anothers organ should be the discretion of the person who's organ is being used. I.e. consent.
    1
  833. I don't know. I know plenty of pro-life people who are ugly as hell. At least with pro-choice people, only their appearance is ugly.
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  834. Why? Because thats what we are. Hell thats what everything is on a base level. Most people just aren't honest enough to say it.
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  835. Because thats a strawman and incomparable argument. One has to do with autonomy rights. One has to do with personal responsibility. Neither parent gets the option of neglecting a child after its born. Also, you make it sound like women don't have to pay child support should the men gain custody. They do.
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  836. Congrats. My mother considered aborting me and was pressured out of it. She neglected me because she had to work. Because of that, I was in a situation where I am now permanently disabled. I wish I had never been born. You don't have an inherent right to life. You have a right to live after birth because a government says you do. 1. Yes, it can be. But some women must. Some women fall in love. Sometimes situations change suddenly. What about instances of condom breakage or failure? 2. Because sex is not just about procreation. Its a hormone treatment. A painkiller. A stress reducer. You claim its not that hard. That is only true for you. Some people find it incredibly hard, and to deny that urge is unhealthy. 3. It is hard to get birth control. Its prescription only. Some women do not have access because they have no insurance and cannot afford to go to an OBGYN. Some women cannot take birth control. And unless you go to a place like Planned Parenthood (who pro-lifers constantly want to demonize) its never free. A prescription of birth control here where I live without insurance is $89. 4. Thats an entire made up myth that has been thoroughly debunked, though I do not doubt that some people would love to use it that way. 5. You don't get free access to things for your baby. There are assisted programs to allow the government to help you, but you have to qualify for them. You have to qualify for food stamps. Guess what happens if you had any kind of drug conviction? Your automatically ineligible for food stamps. 6. Its not about money. Its about someone being responsible. Know whats selfish? Watching a child suffer at the hands of an unfit mother because God forbid she has an abortion.
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  837.  @petermyles8096   She punched you in the head? Thats terrible. But guess what? My mother fractured my skull. She broke my spine. She disabled me for the rest of my existence because she could not handle me. Its not that hard to have sex if you are not naturally a sexual person. But not all people are like that. Different people have different levels of libido, and to ignore that is unhealthy. I understand others are different. But YOU are acting like NO ONE feels like this. And to ignore the pain and suffering of people like me is despicable. Perhaps there is, and then there are people who lived through worse and don't wish they lived. Did you know that is some places, they don't even sell condoms in stores? Did you know sometimes condoms break or simply don't work? And when did I ever say that? Legally, it has no rights until after birth. That doesn't mean I agree with it. I don't. Most states have cutoff points for a reason. For me, its sentience. Being responsible it taking preventative measures and when those fail, making the best decision for yourself.
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  838.  @albinsiby7  I mean, you aren't dealing in facts. You're manipulating and lying in order to suit your narrative. I never said it wasn't human. It is. What your doing is calling it a baby and a child, which are both flat out lies and you do that manipulativly in order to guilt people into your side. If you wanna call the rights of people depravity, by all means. Just try and be honest about it.
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  839. I am so glad you have no say in our legal system. You are seriously fucked up.
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  840. An infant can exist without its mother. Just not without a guardian.
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  841. No its not. Whether or not its a person makes no difference. Its not sentient. The mother can't care for it. She doesn't consent to it using her body. Thats her choice.
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  842. So show me how a fetus can develop without the use of a uterus.
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  843.  @ironbeast4247  It is a cluster of cells. All organic life is. And your argument fails. Without an engine, an airplane doesn't exist just as without a host mother, a fetus doesn't exist.
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  844. Because that would be a strawman argument. If you don't care for a child you helped bring into the world, yet reap all of the benefits from being a parent legally, you are a dead beat. Man or woman. Ultimately, both parties should talk. But one of the noted reasons a woman will choose an abortion is because the man walks out. He should be part of the conversation, but he does not have final say.
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  845.  @jacobsecrist728  They don't "want" to live. They are incapable of "wanting" anything. You cannot miss what you mever had.
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  846.  @jacobsecrist728  Blind and deaf people have sentience. Fetuses do not.
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  847.  IssyFishyy  Birth is not the default. Birth is just the expectation.
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  848.  @jacobsecrist728  That fetuses don't have sentience? They lack a brain until a certain point. You can't have sentience wkthour a brain.
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  849.  IssyFishyy  Nothing is the default. If birth was the default, miscarriages wouldn't happen.
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  850.  IssyFishyy  You do realize that miscarriages are actually quite common right? Sometimes the body will miscarry before a woman knows she's pregnant. Its actually quite natural.
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  851.  IssyFishyy  Miscarriages are also natural. That was my point. Yes, birth is an expectation. That doesn't mean it will occur. There is no such thing as the "default".
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  852.  IssyFishyy  Just because they're used interchangeably doesn't make them correct. And even if it did, that doesn't change the fact that this isn't a moral issue. I can go ahead and grant you the premise that abortion is immoral, and still argue for it to remain legal.
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  853.  IssyFishyy  No I can make a rational argument for it being legal, seperate from the emotional "morality". I personally don't like debating anyone on morality, because its emotional and fallacious. There are rational reasons why we don't outlaw abortion, just as there are rational reasons why we do outlaw murder. Theft is a gray area to me
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  854. @Great Gatsby No it isn't.
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  855. @Great Gatsby No, it isn't. You understand that pro-choice doesn't just apply to abortion, yes?
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  856. @Great Gatsby The position is not pro-abortion. That would be advocating for women to immediately have an abortion. Pro-choice is about letting a woman have a choice in her body INCLUDING abortion. Legally, an unborn child has no rights. Morally, we can argue that all day, which I believe we have done. Also, I don't know what kind of "personal gratification" you think a woman gets from having an abortion.
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  857.  @adriandussault6941  I have never met a pro-choice person that circumcised their son. Circumcision tends to be a religious thing, and the religious tend to be pro-life. I get the feeling you're bullshitting to try and make a point.
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  858.  @StormChaserJ  A non-sentient fetus' "right to life" (something it doesn't have until 20 weeks, which I even agree is too late) does not supersede a woman's right to bodily autonomy, pursuit of happiness, or consent.
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  859.  @StormChaserJ  Because I try to be the least hypocritical I can be. I acknowledge that being alive isn't valuable compared to being able to experience, think and feel subjectively. I destroy life every day, but try very hard to protect sentient creatures. Double edged sword.
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  860. Because sex is a natural process that involves more than reproduction, and to deny that want is unhealthy. Abortion is taking accountability, just as is motherhood and adoption.
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  861.  Snow Flake  Show me a fetus that is a seperate individual with separate DNA that doesn't need to attach to a woman' uterus in order to develop and you might have an argument. Without the direct use of a woman's body, a fetus cannot exist. Quit elevating life above the other rights.
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  862. So yes. It is just a cluster of cells. Thats what all organic matter is.
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  863. It doesn't have different DNA. It's 99% similar to its parents. And its YOUR BODY because the only reason for its formation is the USE of YOUR BODY. A fetus does not develop outside a womb. You seem to know very little about genetics. The argument isn't based on life. We place no value on life as a general subject. We place value on sentient life. The fetus doesn't care. So why do you?
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  864. Please go to Saudi Arabia. You'd be so much more welcomed over there.
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  865. Then you would be wrong, and many people who have abortions still have children later down the line.
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  866. So basically birth a child and set it up for death or failure? Thats disgusting.
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  867. "Why doesn't the law protect the rights of a fetus?" Because the fetus has no rights in the first place, whether or not you agree with that. The unborn are not protected under the Constitution. But even if they did, your right to life cannot come at the expense of someone else's liberty. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. Most pro-choice people I know place the cutoff date at 16 weeks, because by then, a fetus is sentient. Legally, a fetus doesn't have rights as we see them until after birth, which is why there is no federal cutoff date.
    1
  868.  @redredred8408  Because there is nothing to respond to. I can't respond to someone that makes no point.
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  869.  @bosnia7429  And you don't know what murder is. Because its not.
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  870.  @vincentmeade2534  Except its not unlawful. So it does not fit the definition, just as war or capital punishment doesn't.
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  871.  @vincentmeade2534  If its legal, it isn't murder. Are you asking me if killing someone is okay? Yes it is. Its killing human life. There is no difference.
    1
  872.  @vincentmeade2534  Segregation and slavery were violations of the Constitution from the very beginning.
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  873.  @vincentmeade2534  If murder was legal, it wouldn't be murder. Murder is unlawful by definition.
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  874.  @vincentmeade2534  No, it shouldn't. Because its a constitutional right. If a fetus can be conceived outside of a womb, then abortion should be illegal, because its no longer interfering with the rights of a mother.
    1
  875. Nope, and those two things are not comparable. A fetus physically affects a woman. A man pays child support because he doesn't contribute time or resources to the mother or the child. Hers deals with rights. His deals with accountability.
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  876. Because abortion is convenient right? No. Most people don't abort simply because they don't want it. They abort because they can't care for it.
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  877. Which is not a legitimate viewpoint to have since the body wants sex naturally.
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  878.  @demonshinobi5994  Its not a baby. It is their choice. Not my fault the parasite can't develop without my uterus.
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  879.  @prometheus4429  Because anything that survives off of another human being at no benefit or that causes problems is a parasite by definition. I never said it wasn't human. It is. I also never said it wasn't living. It is. Rights are not "entitled" to you. You have rights because you support a government that grants you those rights. Legally, a fetus has no rights. And even if it did, their right cannot impede on yours. Right to life cannot impede on a right to liberty. That's why a doctor can't just take your kidney, even if its the only way to save a life.
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  880.  @espakuz2450  And? Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.
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  881. @Humanity Galatica Made up in the sense that someone else made them up yes. Enforced rights based on the country and society I live in.
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  882. Because its already known adoption is an option. Congrats. You were one of the lucky ones. Way more children are either never adopted and kicked out at 18, or adopted into abusive households.
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  883. Not in 2% of cases.
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  884. Does the truth hurt you? Every organic organism is just a cluster of cells.
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  885.  @txryder79  And I never tried to. I, as someone who is pro-choice, am fine saying this cluster of cells is human. My question is, so what? Being human doesn't make it valuable. Thats not inherent.
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  886. Yep. There should be discussion between partners of course, but its her body being used for the growth of the fetus. She has the final say.
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  887. "When you have unprotected sex..." No. Absolutely not. Just because you are having unprotected sex does NOT mean you are PLANNING to get pregnant. Planning requires forethought. Yeah...abortion is taking accountability. Its realizing "Hey. I fucked up. I can't do this." Quit acting like death (especially when you have no consciousness) is the worst thing in the world.
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  888. Because protection always works right? Oh wait... Of course you should use protection, but its not available everywhere nor can everyone use it.
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  889.  @grz1363  It may always work for you, but several people I know got pregnant even with contraception. I'm unable to take any type of birth control and pregnancy clincs here do not provide contraceptives.
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  890.  @strive4252  That's your opinion. I don't, personally, believe life has inherent value. My life only has value because I amd others assign it value. That was not something I was born with. She tried to abort me, and people wouldn't allow her to. That caused me to experience severe trauma and abuse that has now permanently damaged me, to the point that its impossible for me to live a normal life. While I understand where you're coming from, saying things like that to a person like me comes off as insensitive and condescending. "You have a life worth living. Be happy for it." I actually don't. I'm sorry, but suffering is not better than death.
    1
  891.  @strive4252  Except its not. Objective value on people simply doesn't exist. You are only valuable if another places that value on you. Value is a descriptive term. Not a prescriptive one. I can take away my worth. I have all that power. Also, I don't believe in a soul. That's just actual nonsense. So what? And no? No one took care of me. I had to care for myself. I had a very basic education. I had to teach myself to do things. I walked around in clothes that were filthy and torn to shreds. So, again. Stop being condescending. You know absolutely nothing about my life. If I was inherently valuable, everyone would consider me as such. But reality is, that's not the case.
    1
  892.  @strive4252  I'm sorry, but they do that to protect their country. You can't have a deep care for someone you've never met. You can only empathize with the fact that they're other humans, because we are social creatures. Most people go off to war because its their career. Its what earns them a living. Not to say that they just go in for a paycheck, but wanting to protect people and values doesn't necessarily equate to seeing value in them. And again, that still isn't intrinsic. That's a person's personal opinion. No? Not really. I'm well aware that people have it worse off than I did. But someone else having cancer doesn't mean your broken arm doesn't hurt. I have technology that I had to struggle immensely for, and that struggle was not worth what I did obtain. It literally sounds like you are trying to undermine this. And I'm sorry, but that's disgusting. I determine my value. I am not born with it. And I, personally, would have rather been aborted. Value is not inherent.
    1
  893.  @strive4252  No, you misunderstand. You are not disgusting. Sorry if that came across that way. The attitude you take towards my struggle, I find digusting. But only because it sounds like you were downplaying it. Even if that's not what you intend. Strangers can empathize with people because we are human. But they don't honestly care. People, first and foremost, care for themselves. Then those they love. I understand your mission, but I unfortunately don't want it. Nothing you say will change the past, nor the damage that was done to me. You will also not convince me value is intrinsic. I appreciate you trying, but that's just not my viewpoint.
    1
  894. This is a legal matter. Not a moral one.
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  895. Because sex is more than reproduction.
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  896. So...what about women who can't use contraceptives? And how hypocritical is that?
    1
  897.  @kingorange7739  Depends on where you live. Condoms break. Does that breaking entitle the woman to an abortion then?
    1
  898. Eh, you still probably are pro-choice. But that includes abortion. Which is not murder.
    1
  899.  @xafbxmoto269  No its not. In that case, all soldiers are murderers.
    1
  900. Choice is the most important thing. Its your right. Who cares whether she's in a tough situation or not. Its her body, and she does not consent to the fetus living off of her. And no, its not a baby. Its a fetus. It can't make a choice, and has no legal rights. I could argue that this is less a moral issue, and more a rights/legal issue.
    1
  901.  @sophiathesophisticated1383  A fetus is any unborn mammal. Stemming something from its latin roots doesn't change the definition of words.
    1
  902.  @sophiathesophisticated1383  I never said birth makes a fetus a human. Its a human if its of the species. That isn't the point. Its not a BABY, medically or scientifically, until after birth. Until birth, its a fetus. By the way, most abortions take place before a brain is developed.
    1
  903.  @sophiathesophisticated1383  Because the definition of a baby is after birth. That's just the definition. All I'm saying is technically, it isn't a baby until after birth.
    1
  904.  @sophiathesophisticated1383  That's the simple way anatomy and language work. Take it up with Webster and Oxford. Then again, even if I did say "baby" instead of "fetus", it's still her right to abort.
    1
  905.  @sophiathesophisticated1383  No, thats because what we medically define it as. By the way, did you know pro-choice doesn't just apply to abortion? I know many people who are anti-abortion but are still pro-choice. Another fact. Most people who call themselves pro-life aren't, because they support death with dignity or abortions in certain circumstances . My argument that while inside the womb, it is a human fetus. Outside the womb it is a human baby. Its human no matter what stage its in. No, abortion isn't murder because its not illegal. Killing does not equate to murder. The woman has a right to do whatever she wants with her OWN BODY. If she does NOT CONSENT to a fetus growing inside her, she had the LEGAL RIGHT to terminate it. Fetuses do not have legal rights, because they are not sentient. You and I can argue all day about that, but thats the facts. If the fetus is using my body, then yes actually. I can do whatever I want with it. This is a legal/rights issue. Not a moral one.
    1
  906.  @sophiathesophisticated1383  Because thats how it is. I don't have an answer for you other than that. Words change with society. Language is a societal concept. Also, no. If we found a fetus on mars, it would be dead. You can't change the definition of a word to fit your narrative. Abortion just isn't murder. So you are pro-life? Your against abortion in all cases, including rape, incest, or medical necessity? You're against a person who is terminally ill being allowed to take life ending medication? "I don't support the killing of innocent humans". Are you also against the military?
    1
  907.  @sophiathesophisticated1383  You said you don't support the killing of innocent people, so its perfectly acceptable to ask if you support the military. Or are you a hypocrite? Just say it's situational.
    1
  908. Except virtually no one thinks like that. There are, of course, exceptions to that rule. No, what would be avoiding responsibility is to have a child you are unprepared for and neglect it. Also, thats not necessarily true either. Medical problems are a great example. You do have to have the abortion to save your life, but you agree to do it willingly, which makes it voluntary.
    1
  909.  @matthewbrooks5643  No, actually its not. Many people have sex for reasons other than children. In fact, thats probably the majority. Thats also untrue. You should study psychology.
    1
  910.  IssyFishyy  Ahh possibly.
    1
  911. Hahaha. Imagine being a person that thinks protection can't fail, or that its healthy to ignore sexual urges. Imagine also not believing humans are animals when we're mammalian great apes. Abortion is taking responsibility. Just as motherhood and adoption is.
    1
  912.  @JulianQuiamhor  Yeah it is
    1
  913. Because its just that easy right? Birth control is readily and easily accessible right? Its 100% effective right?
    1
  914.  @jamess.2491  There are many places where drugstores do not sell condoms. Here, you have to buy them online. And that 10% that they aren't effective are millions of women who get pregnant.
    1
  915. @Humanity Galatica Isn't value subjective as well?
    1
  916.  @laurenmiller9482  Yes, why?
    1
  917.  IssyFishyy  No rational pro-choice person acts like abortion is the only solution. That's an outright lie. By the way, contraceptions and adoption are NOT always options available and DON'T guarantee the child will live or thrive. Do you know why theft and murder is illegal? Because it violates your constitutional rights? You know why abortion was passed? Because forced pregnancy violates your constitutional rights.
    1
  918. No it isn't. That's just a fact.
    1
  919. That's not what murder means.
    1
  920.  @Pro_Goober  Murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. I think the better question is why you feel the need to be dishonest and call it something it isn't? Why not just call it termination? Or if you want the more visceral response, call it killing?
    1
  921.  @Pro_Goober  First off, fetus. Not baby. Baby is post utero. Secondly, both fetuses and babies are human. Fetuses however, are not recognized as such because they aren't "people", as they lack sentience. Again, dishonesty at its finest. No one is being murdered. A fetus is human (if we're speaking about humans) but is not considered one by law because ita not a person. Murder is a legal term. Use it as one.
    1
  922.  @Pro_Goober  Potentially. 50% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. That's not the argument. Murder still have to be unlawful. Killing does not always equate to murder.
    1
  923.  @Pro_Goober  You can literally use Google and pick from which source you want. There's also an OBGYN on YouTube who gives insight to all things pregnancy related. A miscarriage is always deadly what? A miscarriage is literally the loss of the fetus. Now I'm starting to think you're just a troll.
    1
  924.  @Pro_Goober  Miscarriage is the loss of a fetus, also called a self abortion. I've never once changed the subject. You made the statement that all fetuses will be "more human" in 9 months. I simply pointed out that wasn't true.
    1
  925.  @Pro_Goober  Its not murder because a) the fetus isn't a person legally (even if its human) and its not unlawful. Its that simple. A miscarriage is also known as a "self abortion" and was brought up as a counter point to something you said.
    1
  926.  @Pro_Goober  But no one has an abortion at 9 months. So what point is that? Also again, no. Not necessarily. That implies that all children make it to term
    1
  927.  @Pro_Goober  Except that's your opinion. I think its wrong to force someone to give birth who doesn't want to. And again, not all fetuses will make it to nine months
    1
  928.  @Pro_Goober  And you assume that every pregnancy was consensual? The 2% of people who get abortions because of rape and medical complications is still millions of people.
    1
  929.  @Pro_Goober  Oh...so then a child loses their value if it threatens the mothers life? You don't see the hypocrisy in that?
    1
  930.  @Pro_Goober  And why is that? I think liberty and life should be equal regardless. I don't think you should get to live at another person's expense.
    1
  931. Wow. You both are actual assholes that have no idea how the world can work huh? Taking a life doesn't make something murder. If the right to life is most important, would you be okay with a doctor forcefully taking your organs to give to people who need them? I doubt it.
    1
  932.  @NM-ej3xw  Plenty more examples of people ending up in prison or committing suicide from coming from poor families. By the way, most people are pro-choice. Also, you can be anti-abortion and pro-choice. Ignorant stupidity at its finest.
    1
  933.  @vincentsong8751  No, I meant while you were alive. A doctor, while you're still living, taking your organs without your consent and giving them to people who will die without them. Life is most important right? No matter how bad others suffer? Abortion isn't murder. Get over it.
    1
  934.  @vincentsong8751  It doesn't. Ever heard of the death penalty? Self defense? Murder is a legal term. Killing =/= murder.
    1
  935.  @vincentsong8751  I was showing you the fault in your logic. If life is most important, shouldn't a doctor be allowed to take a person's organs by force to save someone else if the patient will not die?
    1
  936.  @vincentsong8751  You aren't pro-life unless you literally are telling people they can't have abortions. Show me a fetus that can develop outside of a uterus, and you might have an argument for it not being "her body". Someone having value depends on the person giving them value. I place value on sentience, not on life.
    1
  937.  @vincentsong8751  No it isn't. Once again shows you know nothing about the law. Killing a pregnant woman is murder of the woman and unlawful termination of a pregnancy in nearly all cases. And shouldn't you support organ harvesting? Life is the most important thing right? So shouldn't some else's life be above your comfort? Life begins at conception. But life isn't what matters. Not to most. Are you against DNR's and euthanasia as well?
    1
  938.  @vincentsong8751  No I don't. If life is the ultimate right, then shouldn't you be forced to donate organs you don't need to those who will die if you don't? Since pro-life is literally about ending all abortions?
    1
  939.  @vincentsong8751  You actually fail to see the point. I am drawing a comparison. You said in your original comment that life trumps all. The right to life the most important. And that's why people shouldn't be allowed to have an abortion. If the right to life is so important that it trumps one's right to bodily autonomy, then shouldn't it also be the case that a doctor can forcefully take lets say, your kidney, because that kidney is necessary for the life of someone else? That's what you say about pregnant people, so shouldn't it apply to everyone?
    1
  940.  @vincentsong8751  But that's exactly what you do when you advocate against abortion. You sacrifice the mother's right to liberty and bodily autonomy for the fetus' right to life. That was my entire point.
    1
  941.  @vincentsong8751  When its no longer using her uterus for viability. Show me one instance of a fetus that does not need to USE someone else for its survival.
    1
  942.  @vincentsong8751  Anywhere between 15 and 20 weeks. By then, the neural network is formed and a brainstem is active. I believe the earliest delivered child that survived was 20 weeks.
    1
  943.  @vincentsong8751  Is a fetus able to grow any limbs or a head without implantation into someone else's organ where it feeds off of her nutrients? Also, since when does body parts mean anything? Just because they're in the process of developing and growing doesn't mean they aren't using another person to do that. Again, should I be allowed to take your kidney since you only need one to survive and I will die without it? Should I be allowed to use your organ to benefit myself without giving you any benefit, and often causing problems?
    1
  944.  @vincentsong8751  No, its part of the mother because its using her uterus. And by the way, these appendages that you are describing define themselves after most abortions take place.
    1
  945.  @vincentsong8751  So what if its already living? I'm living. So do I have a right to your kidney to survive?
    1
  946.  @vincentsong8751  And again, a fetus has no right to use my body to sustain its life unless I give consent. Just as I have no right to your kidney without your consent. When a fetus doesn't need a human uterus to grow, you'll have an argument that it's not her body. We aren't disagreeing on that. No, it has life from conception. I agree. That isn't the point. The point is you do not get to live at the expense of someone else.
    1
  947.  @NM-ej3xw  Yes because you need every organ to live. Clearly that's not what I meant. You simply just proved my point. Its wrong if you don't give consent. That's exactly why abortion exists.
    1
  948.  @NM-ej3xw  I agree to use protection. But guess what? That doesn't always help. It is your responsibility. Thats why abortion exists. To argue that abortion isn't taking responsibility isn't accurate. I'm well aware we can't be kids forever, so try to stop acting like one and think with a little bit of nuance.
    1
  949.  @NM-ej3xw  That is not at all how kidney's fuction. Plenty of people live perfectly healthy adult lives without 2 kidneys. A normal healthy adult can live with one kidney. And if life is most important, shouldn't life come before all? That's the flaw I have in your reasoning. Getting pregnant directly puts you at risk. Why does it not go both ways? Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.
    1
  950.  @NM-ej3xw  And forcing someone to carry a pregnancy that they do not want is also directly puts their life in danger. You see way more pregnancy complications then you see people who have a problem donating an organ. Your argument is inherently hypocritical.
    1
  951.  @NM-ej3xw  If you're not arguing that abortion should be allowed if your life is in danger, then you aren't pro-life. You are pro-choice. No, most abortions are performed because a mother feels incapable of taking care of that child after birth.
    1
  952.  @NM-ej3xw  Then I guess since your pro-choice, that makes you a loser. Since pro-choice people are losers. The bottom line is, if you're against abortion because parents do not want it, but aren't against abortions for rape, incest or medical necessity, they you're a hypocrite. Why does the value of life change just because the pregnancy could harm the mother or because it was concieved violently? See the problem with the argument? I don't actually think your a loser, nor do I think you're a bad person by the way. And I agree with you in your feeling to want abortions to end. I just want you to see how this argument isn't black and white.
    1
  953.  @Mark-go7qm  You act as if everyone who has been born who is pro-choice would have chosen to be born over being aborted.
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  954. @Humanity Galatica Yes because we want rights to our own bodies, we must be anti human. Waiting for all the pro-lifers to fix the contraception and foster care system.
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  955. No one is inherently valuable. That is simply a matter of your personal opinion, and your opinion should not supersede someone's rights.
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  956.  @nasquamastudios  That doesn't make someone valuable just because they have a conscious. Value is something you place on something. Its not something that exists outside of a sentient brain. In your opinion, humans are valuable. In my opinion, they're not.
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  957.  @joe2times381  I could say the same to you.
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  958.  @joe2times381  I said humans have no inherent value. You can surely assign value to humans. Its about inherent rights.
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  959.  @joe2times381  You're trying to establish that one right is more important or valuable than another.
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  960.  @joe2times381  We live in a society that deems SENTIENT life as valuable. That's not inherent or natural. Nature doesn't care if you live or die. Those resources are NOT always available, and the bottom line is that a fetuses right to life does not supersede the mothers right to liberty. The fetuses rights stop at the uterine wall. If I could not take care of it, and I had no guarantee of it living a healthy life, I would opt to not have it be born. That is me. That is my choice. Because I've been through it. The man should have a say. But the woman has FINAL say. Its USING HER BODY. Not his. Its not insane when you have lived the shitty life you advocate for.
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  961.  @joe2times381  Whether or not you think its terrible is frankly irrelevant to me. I feel the same. Nothing is objectively true in life. Of course me feeling a certain way in life doesn't make it objectively right. The same could be said about you. Pregnancy is avoidable, and I absolutely agree that is should be if possible. But that isn't realistic when discussing abortion. The act is already done. I'm saying I'm a person who can do what she wants with her body, and should not be forced into something I do not consent to.
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  962. Yes. Because its her body the fetus is using. Although I definitely believe men should be involved, and a vast majority of women would not have an abortion if they knew their partner would be financially responsible. Not all, but many. Bottom line is this is a legal and rights issue.
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  963. It already is. Tax money does not go to abortions. That's against the Hyde ammendment.
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  964. Because the man doesn't have the fetus growing inside him. He should certainly be a part of the discussion. But a vast majority of abortions happen because the man gets up and leaves, abandoning the woman.
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  965. I certainly think men are underrepresented and should certainly have a say. But for the record, you should go to jail for child support, just like a woman does if a man gets custody and doesn't pay. No matter what side your own, we should treat the inequalities
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  966. @Mabel Wilson Except it isn't murder. The one's being rude are you. I respect your view. I understand it. You don't understand mine.
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  967. Because its that easy right? And condoms are always effective, right?
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  968.  @idontevenknow8759  That is not true. They're closer to between 87 and 92% effective. And even THEN millions of women get pregnant because condoms fail.
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  969.  @idontevenknow8759  That isn't true either. Even correctly used, they still work about 92% on average. The number gets lower, closer to 73%, when used incorrectly. And even if that were the case, choosing to have unprotected sex does not mean one loses her right to abort if she chooses.
    1
  970.  @idontevenknow8759  And planned parenthood are not medical doctors and get things wrong. They go by the manufacturer. Are they effective? Sure. Do they always prevent? No. Thats my point.
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  971. Abortion is dealing with the consequences. And protected sex doesn't guarantee you won't get pregnant.
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  972.  @whitewhitewhite2446  If people are having sex specifically to get pregnant, having an abortion outside of necessity makes 0 sense. You're just lying now.
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  973. I fail to see the argument. Plenty of people don't want a birthday.
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  974.  @wilfthebig7910  I am pro-choice.
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  975. @Humanity Galatica Yeah, I don't believe that. I don't think its as easy as you try to make it out to be.
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  976. And what then happens when those preventatives fail?
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  977. Yeah, I doubt any of them are actually pro-life. I know many gorgous people who are pro-choice.
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  978. Medically, that isn't accurate. The fetus is attached to your placenta, and that body is forming only by using you and the nutrients you provide it. It is biologically attached to you. It isn't seperate from you until the umbilical cord is severed. It can't give permission. Its not sentient. Protected sex doesn't prevent pregnancy, and adoption doesn't guarantee a healthy and happy life. The bottom line remains is that fetus's rights do not trump hers. They stop at the uterine wall.
    1
  979.  @Talos_The_King  Not at the time of most abortions it doesn't. I absoutely side with you at senteince and brain activity, but that is after most abortions.
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  980. You are so ignorant and dishonest on this subject its laughable. Did you know you can be pro-choice and anti-abortion? Probably not, since you don't know how most abortions are performed.
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  981. And taking responsibility includes having an abortion.
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  982.  @peytonblanchard4955  I am well aware of those laws, but I also know that state police have come out saying they will never enforce that law. Its unconstitutional
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  983.  IssyFishyy  so show me a fetus that can exist without implantation into a mother's uterus and without using her nutrients to develop.
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  984.  @asemttamwerdna1277  Because my mother is sentient and a fetus is not at the time of most abortions.
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  985.  @asemttamwerdna1277  Well then what would your definition of "really loving someone be?" We love people because it makes us happy helping and bonding with people. Love is just a chemical in the brain. It has no meaning outside the brain. No, I don't think we're here just to reproduce and dominate. Our life is what we choose.
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  986.  @asemttamwerdna1277  I might be a bad example, but in general yes. Thats how love works.
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  987.  @asemttamwerdna1277  I agree with you. As far as worth, I think your worth is determined by you and the people who's lives you change. I don't think worth is something you're born with.
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  988.  @asemttamwerdna1277  Yes...? I don't deny that. We are animals as well. We just lucked out on the fusion of chomosome 2. No, I don't think that's true. That maybe could be said on a species level, but not an individual.
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  989.  @asemttamwerdna1277  I wouldn't say love is a human construct. I do certainly think its a brain chemistry thing. As are all emotions.
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  990.  @asemttamwerdna1277  Define real love. Worth does exist, but only as a prescriptive term. And as far as their views changing my worth, its because it changes how I view myself. I don't think people are JUST a clump of cells.
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  991.  @asemttamwerdna1277  I think you misunderstood. Reproducing is certainly a goal if we're speaking about species. But its not necessarily when talking about the individual.
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  992.  @asemttamwerdna1277  Okay, but that real love is there because of the way brain chemistry works. And I fail to see how if it was just a human concept, it wouldn't exist.
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  993.  @asemttamwerdna1277  Okay. Something definitely got misunderstood here. Let me try to clearly state my position. Every organic organism is a clump of cells at its base components, so to say that isn't technically incorrect. However, I think its a bad argument to use because then it makes people think you only view it as a clump of cells. Yes, we are just a clump of sells at our base level, but I think its deeper than that. A fetus is a clump of cells, but it is human. When it comes to abortion though, I don't place the value on whether something is human or not, because I don't think being human makes you special. I don't really think "life" matters. I think sentience matters. The ability to think and feel subjectively. That is what seperates it. That's personally the line for me.
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  994.  @flowersmakemehappy834  Until someone you care about or yourself needs an abortion or they're in so much pain they can't function. Let's see how pro-life you are then.
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  995. It is life. And I have never understood why, as someone who is pro-choice, people say it isn't.
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  996. Because being pro-choice includes the option to adopt. That has nothing to do with abortion.
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  997.  @katherinekuefler-kappel2328  No, adoption is not a great option for women who feel this way. People seem to have this misconception that if you place your child up for adoption, the child will be taken care of. This is simply not true. Children in the care of the state are systematically abused and neglected. 80% of the prison population spent at least a year in foster care, and those who have been abused by the state or placed with a neglectful family because of incompetence make up nearly 10% of the suicides for children 18 years and younger. Placing your child up for adoption does not guarantee a happy, safe or productive life.
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  998.  @katherinekuefler-kappel2328  You may think that, but that is your opinion. Many others, myself included, disagree with you.
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  999.  @katherinekuefler-kappel2328  Perhaps their answer would be the latter. Mkne sure wouldn't.
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  1000. The fact that you deny a woman the right to her body or the dying a right to die on their terms is horrible. The fact that you would rather see a child abused and neglected when it can feel and sense everything as opposed to being terminated when it is unable to feel or sense is horrible.
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  1001. People in comas and those with mental disabilities are still sentient. While they may not express the way a healthy person does, they can still feel and think. Fetuses are not sentient when most abortions occur. They are unable to think or feel. I personally have no issue pulling plugs on people in comas, especially if the likelihood of them recovering is low. How about trying to care about the quality of life?
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  1002.  @HelloHello-js6dm  A fetus is any unborn mammal. Medically, its a fetus from implantation until birth. While the nervous system begins to develop the sheaths of what will be the spine and neurons between 6 and 7 weeks, the brainstem needed to stimulate these neurons does not develop until the end of the first trimester, between 10 to 12 weeks. Also, only later term abortions are performed surgically, when the fetus has sentience. Most abortions are performed through medication that forces the body to essentially miscarry, similar to the morning after pill. Abortions are not performed surgically in most pregnancies as its too much risk to the mother. You can disagree with me if you wish. I'm more than happy to keep providing discussion.
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  1003.  @mathildeyoung1823  Doctors delivering early do not prevent complications. Thats even more risky, not just to the mother, but the fetus as well. Except shooting random people violates their right to life, something (legally) a fetus doesn't have.
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  1004. You are aware contraception fails right? Having protected sex doesn't guarantee you won't get pregnant. Deal with it? They are. They are choosing the best path for them.
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  1005. Mmm...yep. absolutely. If thats what you want to do with your body, you have that right.
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  1006. Because everyone already knows its an option and then there would have been a debate about how poor and broken the system is.
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  1007.  @samir1281  Comgrats. I'm glad you made it. You, however, do not speak for everyone. I had damage done to me personally that can never be repaired, and I would much rather have been aborted. Everyone has different trauma and reacts to it differently.
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  1008. Yeah no. That tends to not be true, and is clearly just projection by someone who doesn't agree with abortion.
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  1009.  bochap21  I'll debate with you. Pro-choice means having the right to choose what you want done with your body. That includes adoption, abstinence, contraception, motherhood and abortion. As far as a right to abort at birth, I consider that immoral, but still a right. I believe abortion should be off the table at sentience, which is between 12 and 15 weeks.
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  1010. You mean like telling me I'm going to hell if I abort it? Very rarely will people actually help you after birth. People don't give time and money in general. You're usually on your own. They're fine with helping you through the pregnancy, but where are they for the 18 years after?
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  1011.  IssyFishyy  You can't just give your child away. That's called child trafficking. There's an adoption process you must go through and its expensive as hell, which is why most adoptions are state adoptions.
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  1012.  M  I believe its because they claim they care about life and that life matters, but see no issue in the deliberate slaughter of an animal when humans are animals as well.
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  1013.  M  I wasn't saying pro-life supports all life. But its hypocritical to claim that the reason your pro-life is because "you care about life" when you really don't. By the way, do you also not support a person's ability to die on their terms? Because you can be pro-choice and against abortion.
    1
  1014. But she's right. Facts don't care about your feelings.
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  1015. The difference is the fetus isn't sentient at the time of the abortion. It cannot think or feel. It CAN however think and feel when its being abused or neglected.
    1
  1016.  @samsnyder9151  Yes. Yes I am. Better to have not known life at all then to be left alone to be abused. Not everyone feels the way I do, and I understand that. But if you were ever abused by the system, you would understand.
    1
  1017.  @capricornicus1225  Heartbeat is usually detected by 4 weeks. You know what's doing that? The mother. The brainstem doesn't finish devloping until between 10 and 12 weeks, and the actual brain not until between 15 and 17. This is why the cutoff is 20 weeks in most places, because the necessities for life have been fully formed. Regardless, this is not a moral issue.
    1
  1018.  @capricornicus1225  I'm sorry, but I went to medical school. I've helped perform both early and late term abortions. You, my friend, are incredibly misinformed. Abortion should always be an option.
    1
  1019. Because the death penalty does nothing benefical, as does forcing a person to give birth.
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  1020.  @yellowyellowyellow7894  For one thing, that doesn't happen. And to claim it does is dishonest. Thise who do comitt crimes worth of the death penalty are sent to maximum security prisons, of which no one has ever escaped. Abotion provides a lot od benfit to the person having it, as long as that decision was thought through amd carefully decided.
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  1021. Pro-life people don't give a damn about quality of life or people's rights.
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  1022. A d&c is also performed for most abortions. You know what a miscarriage is called? A self-abortion.
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  1023.  @michaelh404  No it isn't and if we look at this from a strictly legal perspective, a fetus doesn't have rights.
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  1024. Its not that they aren't a person or alive. Its that their not sentient and the rights do not supersede the mother.
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  1025.  @orangejuice27  They're sentient when the brainstem finishes developing, usually between 10 and 15 weeks depending on the mother.
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  1026. It may be a blessing to YOU, but YOUR opinion is not universal.
    1
  1027.  @matt1325  An organ being for a specific purpose still does not entitle someone else to use it. Would I think thats strange? Yeah. Would I think it was wrong? No. 2. That's still not necessarily accurate.
    1
  1028. @Digital Account Because we as humans don't care about life. We care about sentience.
    1
  1029. Its because DON'T HAVE SEX is an approach that does not work. Sex is HEALTHY. Something most people want for reasons other than reproduction.
    1
  1030. No one kills a baby. Might wanna take a biology class there.
    1
  1031.  @broncobama8091  Yep. But a fetus is not a baby. Baby is post utero.
    1
  1032.  @broncobama8091  You implied that it was by saying I needed common sense classes because I said no one kills a baby in an abortion.
    1
  1033.  @broncobama8091  And? I find no inherent value in human life. And I believe that women and the dying should have equal rights. A fetus should not trump its mother. That being said, hopefully abortion can become more of a last resort
    1
  1034.  @broncobama8091  Yes. Because let's pretend complications don't develop and women aren't raped. The fetus doesn't care. Why do you? I'm not denying that its their choice. Its also their right to abort
    1
  1035.  Gabe  The mother deserves the right to bodily autonomy. Yes, I have. In fact, both of my children are adopted. But ever wonder why there are currently 44,000 children a day waiting to be adopted? There aren't enough parents who want them. Less than 13% of those who want to adopt ever will. Fix the broken foster care system before you lecture me on adoption.
    1
  1036. Thats your opinion.
    1
  1037. @Humanity Galatica Its not. I don't care about your dishonest opinion. You don't get to change the definition of a word because you don't like it.
    1
  1038.  IssyFishyy  I'm sure everything would be perfect if we lived like Saudia Arabia.
    1
  1039. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.
    1
  1040. That's not how science works my friend. Also, no. The man wanting an abortion doesn't free him from the obligation to support the child. Don't wanna pay child support? Don't leave the woman you slept with. Life isn't fair. Its not a man's right to tell a woman what to do with her body. She has the right to bodily autonomy just as he does.
    1
  1041. Ummm no? Where in the US do you live that people just give out thousands of dollars in money?
    1
  1042. No, its a baby after birth. And it has a heartbwat BECAUSE of its mother. That heartbeat DOES NOT EXIST if the mother's brain stops working.
    1
  1043.  @victorscasas1193  Not having sex if you desire it. Its one of the things that make people perform violent sexual acts.
    1
  1044.  Lizzie Allen  In cases. But it has also been proven that those who ignore their needs are prone to sexual acts. Thats why rape and molestation are rampant in say, the Catholic church. Because you force someone to be celibate.
    1
  1045. He can. Be signing away parental rights.
    1
  1046. They do have rights you do. What you are trying to do is place their rights above the rights of the mother. Thats not the way it works.
    1
  1047.  Salsa Bila  The difference is slavery violated the rights of another sentient individual. Abortion does not. I don't argue from morality. I don't view abortion as a moral issue. I view it as a legal one. And when attributing a word to something, yes. The definition matters.
    1
  1048.  Salsa Bila  And 92% of abortions take place before the end of the first trimester, which is 12 weeks. Late term abortions are nearly always done for medical reasons.
    1
  1049. Most of the time, women who get an abortion get one because the father isn't in the picture and doesn't want it. Your scenario is rare. It is her body. What you are advocating for is to revoke a woman's necessary consent.
    1
  1050. @Humanity Galatica In your subjective opinion.
    1
  1051. Very sad that you want to see sentient children abused and neglected and that you think death is the worst possible thing.
    1
  1052.  @ethanm.2411  The only one who sees that as an issue is you. That cheeseburger is also the concious act of killing. So is war and capital punishment. No, its not. And no, you're not. Private adoption, abortion, state adoption and motherhood are all options.
    1
  1053.  @ethanm.2411   Well, you and everyone else who is against abortion. Yes I'm serious. If the act of killing is so bad, you should apply that logic to all sentient life. Not just humans. Sure, but almost everyone would if it meant trying to "do the right thing". One of those necessary evils. And? There are other options other than putting people to death. Again, if consciously killing a sentient being (especially a human) is so wrong, it should be wrong in all circumstances. Because you advocate for abortion to be illegal, which would FORCE an unfit mother to either try and raise a child, or give it to a state. Both of these options have dramatically high probabilities of subjecting the child to abuse and neglect. I happen to believe that is worse than death.
    1
  1054. There are currently 44,000 children waiting to be adopted. Only 3% of American adults will complete the adoption process. I would watch who I call a dumbass, especially since people can and have gotten pregnant while taking contraception.
    1
  1055.  @ChilesSupportTV  Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. Her nutrients and fluids are being used for that fetus to form. It is using her to develop. No, the truth is that you cannot admit that abortion is taking responsibility just as much as motherhood and adoption. You just can't fathom or understand why sometimes ending life is a responsible choice. Probably because you've never been in that position. The law protects women because it is a right. I don't have a right to your organs just because I need them to live and you don't. A fetus' rights do not supersede the mother. They are equal, and as such, stop at the uterine wall.
    1
  1056.  @ChilesSupportTV  Does it matter how old I am? You missed the point. If a pregnant woman does not consent to a fetus using her uterus and parasitizing her (i.e. pregnancy) she has a right to abort it. Being a whore doesn't factor into it. Treat the underlying problems as to why women get abortions and maybe one day we can end them.
    1
  1057.  @macscott2458  I agree. However, I don't think life should be the issue.
    1
  1058.  @Lauren_3000  I'm basing that it isn't murder based on the definition of murder, which a) requires the person to be recongized by law as a person and b) requires said death to be unlawful. Abortion does not meet either of these criteria in the United States, and is therefore not murder pertaining to the United States. If you're asking me if I think it's moral for slow codes and DNR's to exist, then yes. Absolutely. I do not think being alive equates to living.
    1
  1059.  @sumeersamarat706  Umm no. Because murder is a legal term. Nothing biological about it.
    1
  1060. That doesn't mean it was a good decision.
    1
  1061.  @cherylhyman2086  As a failed abortion, I wish my mother had been successful. My life has been hell, and I am now permanently disabled because of the horrible things done to me by the state. There is no hope for me to get better. You should never have the right to make that decision for someone else. People like you set me up to fail in life.
    1
  1062. First, its D&C and secondly they are often performed after abortions as well.
    1
  1063.  @Henry-gv3cy  You do realize that inherent value is a subjective opinion, and therefore cannot be "wrong", right?
    1
  1064.  @Henry-gv3cy  Well, for one, I can objectively say that abortion is not murder when we are talking about the US. No where in the US in abortion outright unlawful, therefore by following those guidelines, it would never be murder. But even if it were murder, murder being wrong is still subjective. That subjectivity just happens to be shared by the majority. Ultimately, objectivity does not exist when it comes to morals. They can, and do, change with time.
    1
  1065.  @Henry-gv3cy  Something being wrong is subjective. It is unable to be proven to be wrong. You slavery example for instance. Do you honestly think if you were born in the Civil War era, you would have inherently knew slavery was wrong? No. Your morality would have lined up with whatever the environment around you told you was right. As society's perspectives changes, morality changes and evolves. When has abortion ever been convenient? Its not. Its not cheap, its not covered by insurance, your ostracized by people, etc. Abortion: the deliberate termination of a human pregnancy, most often performed during the first 28 weeks of pregnancy. Murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. So no, abortion is not murder. A) A fetus is not medically nor legally considered a person, as we define personhood at sentience and B) Abortion is not unlawful. I can grant you that abortion is killing a human. Because it is. That doesn't make it murder. Murder is a legal term. My arguments aren't flawed. They're simply realistic.
    1
  1066.  @yellowyellowyellow7894  I disagree. I care more about quailty of life then whether or not life exists. Plus, I think its disgusting that someone who is suffering doesn't have the right to die.
    1
  1067.  @yellowyellowyellow7894  Nope not at all. I think you should get vaccinated if you want. And I apply that to all vaccines.
    1
  1068. "I would rather be in an orphanage than dead". You only say that because you have no idea what its like to live in the system. A great number of us end up one of two places. Prison or the cemetery. You are LUCKY if you have a chance.
    1
  1069.  @FamousDMagnificent  To deny your body something that is natural is unhealthy.
    1
  1070.  @FamousDMagnificent  No, its not at all like that. What other people do in thwir sex life is none of your business.
    1
  1071.  @FamousDMagnificent  Unless the abortion is being paid for by Medicaid (which it rarely is), your tax dollars are not paying for abortions. The Hyde Amendment forbids federal finances to pay for abortion except for rape, incest, or the life of the mother.
    1
  1072. You are clearly someone who has never taken an anatomy class or has spoken to an OBGYN. Unless you are in a menopause or are actively menstruating, you can get pregnant at ANY time. While the ovulation window is the best time to get pregnant, to claim its the only time a person can get pregnant is just false. Also, condoms and birth control are only about 96% effective when used properly. You would be shocked how many people do not know how to properly use a condom, or get lazy and skip a pill. On top of that, almost all pregnancies are accidental, because a minority of people actually have sex in order to get pregnant. A fetus is chattle. It is property. It is only the decision of the pregnant person what is done with it.
    1
  1073. And abortion is convenient how?
    1
  1074. If only we lived in your perfect world.
    1
  1075.  @MCdi-rt8tb  Excuse us for living in reality. Also, keep your "God" out of it.
    1
  1076.  @MCdi-rt8tb  Yeah, the way to convert people is to name call. Really intelligent. The reality is, abortion is necessary at this time. We can argue about the morality, but we do not live in a just world. I know why I suffer from depression and anxiety. Because there is a chemical imbalance in my brain. So what? I was depressed as a Christian. In fact, I am happier as an athiest. But that's me personally. I don't think you're sexist or a boomer. I'm probably a good decade older than you, and I'm simply more experienced in how the world works in the present. I understand where you're coming from. You don't seem to understand, or don't want to understand, me.
    1
  1077. Just because they're clumps of cells doesn't mean they aren't living.
    1
  1078. Bible is very much pro-choice.
    1
  1079.  @pencil_vesterr  Literally any Bible. Or maybe you just ignore the parts you don't agree with.
    1
  1080. @Humanity Galatica Oh, I don't disagree that its anti-choice. Its just really not pro-life.
    1
  1081. @Humanity Galatica By the definition of pro-choice as it refers to abortion. Not in terms of choice in general.
    1
  1082. @Humanity Galatica The Bible isn't against people having an abortion in any capacity. It actively calls for it.
    1
  1083.  @daniel-fj2rg  My liberty is just as important to life. And believe it or not, pro-choice doesn't just apply to abortion
    1
  1084.  @daniel-fj2rg  Its not just that I think it. It's fact. No matter how much you want to fight it, a fetus, while human is species, is not a person. We define personhood at sentience, not on specism. In the medical community at least. Liberty IS equal to life. Its written right in the Constitution. "We hold these truths to be self evident. That *all right's are created equal*." This is why we don't force organ and blood donation, and why hospitals have slow codes and DNR's Pro-choice also refers to someone's right to die, i.e. assisted suicide.
    1
  1085. Well, abortion isn't murder so...oh. and child abuse often leads to murder.
    1
  1086.  @ChilesSupportTV  Murder must be unlawful to be classified as such. Get a dictionary
    1
  1087.  @ChilesSupportTV  Nope. Actually, I don't have the ability to have children, so I adopted. I just understand why people choose to abort.
    1
  1088. Except one is a constitutional right. The other is walking out on a situation and refusing to take responsibility.
    1
  1089.  @matthewbrooks5643  Abortion is taking responsibility. And whether or not its moral is up to debate
    1
  1090. No it hasn't. Its a fact. Facts can't be debunked. Doesn't mean its a good argument, but fetuses are just clumps of cells. All organic life is clumps of cells.
    1
  1091. @Humanity Galatica True. That's why its a bad argument.
    1
  1092. Yes you should. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. One of the first things crisis centers reccomend is an abortion. There are already thousands of children waiting to be adopted. Guess what? Sex isn't just about kids. Why are the children of rape or those with medical issues lives worth less huh? Why do they deserve to be aborted? They did nothing wrong. Hypocrisy.
    1
  1093.  @Mark-go7qm  That child support line is so tiring. There are many routes a father or mother could take to not pay child support. Child support is not a right. Bodily autonomy is.
    1
  1094. @Humanity Galatica Your duty is only to you. No one else. You are first in your own life.
    1
  1095. @Humanity Galatica To live for someone else is to live foolishly.
    1
  1096. @Humanity Galatica Nope. The individual will always come before the collective.
    1
  1097. My body, my choice. Not my fault the fetus dies outside my uterus.
    1
  1098. One can easily take a firm stance on it.
    1
  1099.  @kankereganbada1184  Most actually can.
    1
  1100.  @kankereganbada1184  You can. That's fine.
    1
  1101.  @jamessmith4287  You aren't obligated to save them any more than you are obligated to save a fetus. If you stand by and do nothing as someone dies, some would argue you're killing them. That's all abortion is. The death of an unborn fetus.
    1
  1102.  @jamessmith4287  You aren't allowing your body to be used. Its no different.
    1
  1103. Because that is proven to be unhealthy. Study human psychology.
    1
  1104. Tell that to the kids who never get adopted and end up killing themselves or landing themselves in prison...
    1
  1105. Most people who claim to be pro-life aren't actually pro-life. They support abortion in special circumstances and are fine with euthanasia.
    1
  1106.  @johanne8260  Then you aren't pro-life. Pro-life is against abortion in all circumstances, regardless of rape or medical circumstances. They're also completely against euthanasia for any reason. You're pro-choice.
    1
  1107.  @MS-dv4st  I don't believe in "most important right" even if a fetus had them, which it doesn't. Someone does not get to live off someone else's body. These rights are equal.
    1
  1108.  @angelibasa8440  No, stripping away a woman's rights is forcing her to give birth at all. Pro-life by definition would not allow for a woman to have an abortion if she is raped. So how is that consensual? You do understand that abortion is also dealing with the consequences as much as motherhood and adoption is right? No, she did not. Consent to sex is NOT consent to pregnancy. These are two different actions. I draw the line at abortion when the fetus is sentient, and this is LONG after abortion is an option for those without medical complications.
    1
  1109.  @angelibasa8440  So then which is it? Are you against abortion for rape? Because if you aren't, you're not pro-life. You know why you will never ban abortion? Because that would violate the Constitution. You have a right to liberty, and it is equal to the right to life. Your analogy doesn't work. These two scenarios are not comparable. One of them violates the law. The other violates a sentient beings constitutional rights. 20 weeks would be sentience. That would go past the option for myself personally. No, studies don't show that. Sentience is the ability to feel. This develops when the brainstem and neural network fuse, around the end of the first trimester and 15 weeks max.
    1
  1110.  @angelibasa8440  Then you would be against the Constitution. Yes, I am. No it doesn't. Stealing from someone is in no way comparable. No, I said I support abortion for any reason up until the point of sentience and, in my opinion, viability. There is no federal law on abortion, and even though most state laws cut off anywhere between 20-26 weeks, most doctors won't perform abortions for no medical purpose beyond 13 weeks. However, that is in my experience. Its not nearly the amount you claim. 97% of abortions take place before 9 weeks.
    1
  1111.  @angelibasa8440  So you're against bodily autonomy being a Constitutional right? These things aren't analogous. Jail time for violating the rights of others is not comparable to bein denied bodily autonomy. Just because someone consents to the act of sense does not mean they consent to their organ being used. Late-term abortions are exclusively done for medical purposes. I am speaking as it pertains to the law, not when I personally think the fetus is viable. Just because a person states they would be comfortable performing something does not mean they do it. I think people have the right to be racist and homophobic. Doesn't mean I take part in that.
    1
  1112.  @angelibasa8440  So you are against bodily autonomy. You do not think a woman should get to decide if another living being uses her organ. You are ignoring the question, because you know it opens you up to further questioning. No it isn't. A fetus is property under the law, just as cattle and pets are. The only difference is one is sentient and the other is not. I don't see the issue with performing an abortion on an inconvenient or unwanted pregnancy. That does not mean they would perform the abortion illegally, even if they're okay with it. Why is he a vile man? Because he said humans are a cancer? We can be. Why does stating that immediately mean he has no empathy?
    1
  1113. Except the issue is, you DON'T have the authority to USE my body without my permission. That fetus HARMS the mother without proper care.
    1
  1114.  @kevinsarulis4067  What does innocence have to do with anything? Abstinence does not work, and is actually unhealthy if you have a sex drive. Abstinence also doesn't help after the fact. Contraception fails and cannot be used by everyone. I understand and agree on a base level with what you're saying, but it doesn't fix the issue. Again, a fetus isn't ripped apart limb from limb. I thought you wanted to stop the spread of misinformation, yet you're spreading it. Fetuses do not feel pain until several weeks after most abortions are performed. That's not universal and you know that. Plenty of people I know were kicked out by people and their church when they got pregnant. And really? Donation campaigns are proven ineffective. Only if you have a large enough following or if you are promoted by a big person can you have any hope of raising enough money a child requires. There's a reason abortion has never been overturned.
    1
  1115. @Humanity Galatica Abstinence is unhealthy if you have a high sex drive. For someone like me? No problem. But when you force yourself to ignore something that your body needs, you react violently. I'm not saying its bad to stay abstinent. I'm saying its bad to ignore sexual urges.
    1
  1116. @Humanity Galatica No. But part of what causes people to rape is being told they MUST remain abstinent, instead of being taught healthy sexual habits.
    1
  1117. @Humanity Galatica Rape also happens when sexual urges are neglected.
    1
  1118. @Humanity Galatica That's exactly what I said. Its more likely when you force yourself to ignore it.
    1
  1119.  @issuesthatmatter2825  We don't place value on life and we never have. We have always placed value on sentience.
    1
  1120. Adoption also isnt free. Its a legal process. Sometimes places will do it for free, but those are few and far between.
    1
  1121.  @Jay-ms3lf  Unless you are speaking about family, no. You cannot just give your child to a family for free. That is child trafficking. Adoption is a legal procedure.
    1
  1122. Hey guess what? Thats only the case under federal law if the woman is 20 weeks or more. Go take a Criminology or Law class.
    1
  1123. Yeah no. Because then you find out you aren't sexually compatible and now you've gotta get a divorce. Protection is best.
    1
  1124. Of course. But pro-lifers don't consider the 44,000 children in foster care at the moment, over half of which will statistically never have a family.
    1
  1125.  @kingorange7739  That fact that you couldn't understand the sarcasam and mockery speaks volumes.
    1
  1126. Ugly is subjective. Emo and edgelord don't have any real meaning. There's nothing wrong with being a feminst in a traditional sense. And many straights, myself included, support the right for a woman to abort. TLDR; Insults don't win debates.
    1
  1127.  @memestar9515  Never said I love abortion. I'm not a weeb, nor am I emo. I just understand why abortions happen. Perhaps look at the situation from another perspective.
    1
  1128.  @anomaloustick4471  Sentience is the ability to think and feel subjectively. A fetus is in her uterus. Her uterus is her body. It belongs to no other organism. That's what bodily autonmy is. Only you have a right to what is done with your organs. It is not her fault the fetus cannot survive outside her uterus.
    1
  1129.  @anomaloustick4471  We hardly qualify it as unique when it is 99% similar to its parents, but I get your point. How exactly does that matter? It doesn't disprove anything. Its still her uterus, unless you can show me a fetus that can develop without a uterus. And as far as people in comas, yeah pretty much. That's why you're not arrested for pulling the plug on your brain dead loved one. That's why doctors have slow codes and DNR's
    1
  1130.  @anomaloustick4471  You can never know if they'll come out of it, and they won't if they're brain dead, which is the only way they wouldn't be sentient. You're still not getting it. Its her body because its using her uterus for its life. We do classify it as her body because the uterus belongs to her, not to the fetus.
    1
  1131. Which often has to go through court to get.
    1
  1132. There is 0 evidence to prove that outlawing abortions would result in less teen sex and rapes. That is an absolutely ridiculous claim.
    1
  1133.  @calo4_942  The state of Alabama still allows abortion. Not only was that law unconstitutional, the police literally said they would not enforce it. In fact, the REBULICAN Supreme Court just struck down a bill for Georgia that tried to ban abortion. The state does not usurp the federal law. No, one of the biggest reasons people rape is to relieve sexual frustration. I would also like evidence that the rates did drop.
    1
  1134. You do realize that child support works with both parents right? Not just men? Custodial fathers can seek child support from deadbeat mothers as well.
    1
  1135. But not only would that be hypocritical, it would be taken advatage of.
    1
  1136. Its not always. Nor does it guarantee happiness.
    1
  1137. So how's it feel to step on the rights of women and the dying?
    1
  1138.  @fMONA94  Well one, they aren't babies unless of course they are outside the womb. 2, how about the millions of children you've killed to abuse and neglect because of unfit parents? Don't strawman the argument. A support a woman's right to choose. I firmly believe most people make a decision like this about whats best for them and their fetus. I truly believe all options should be explored first
    1
  1139.  @st.johntheevangelistorthod4725  I didn't strawman the argument at all. Your rights cannot impede on someone else's. Abortion, to me, is a rights/legal issue more than a moral one. You have a right to the pursuit of happiness and liberty. Raping a woman violates her rights, and your rights STOP where anothers BEGINS and vice versa.
    1
  1140.  @st.johntheevangelistorthod4725  Not from a legal standpoint, because the government does not give rights to non-sentient creatures. From a moral argument, I could grant you that abortion is immoral, but I would say in this point in time, its a necessary evil.
    1
  1141. Men can opt out of parenthood. Terminate your rights.
    1
  1142.  @mathildeyoung1823  Which I do. I am. All organic organisms are.
    1
  1143.  @mathildeyoung1823  We have colloquial terms for things. Just because we call someone something else doesn't mean that's not what they are. If I told you my mother died of a transient ischemic attack, would you know what I meant without google? Probably not. But if I said "my mother died of a stroke", you would know what that meant. Any unborn is techincally called a fetus, but we still use the colloquial term "baby". Doesn't mean it isn't a fetus. You don't have to identify with a particular party to be pro-life or pro-choice. By the way, abortion isn't convenient. Also, a majority of late term abortions? They're done for medical reasons. I have my views on when thr cutoff for someone who is just not stable is. I don't really care whether or not you agree with me. The fact remains that its a right that will never be abolished.
    1
  1144. Men should certainly be a part of it, but it should be ultimately up to the woman. Its her body that must be used for that fetus to develop, and some women don't want to go through that. And that's their right. There are also many times where children are neglected and abused because they live in single parent homes.
    1
  1145.  @kingorange7739  So, you are now deliberately being dishonest. Murder: the UNLAWFUL premeditated killing of one human being by another. So no, abortion isn't murder for 3 reasons. A) Its not unlawful. B) The USSC does not recognize a fetus as a human being. And C) A fetus has no legal rights. Now, you and I can even agree that B and C should not be the case. But in regards to the bodily autonomy, my right to life does not supersede your right to autonomy. They are equal. You are trying to elevate life above liberty. That isn't right.
    1
  1146.  @kingorange7739   That wasn't my point. My point was an analogy. Just as if you don't consent to have your bodily autonomy violated to save a life, a woman doesn't either. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy, and you cannot violate anothers rights for your own. That goes BOTH ways. Being morally correct is entire subjective. You believe abortion is morally wrong. So is allowing children to be abused and neglected by unfit parents and an overloaded state. So the question, morally, comes down too: Which option is worse? Precisely my point. Just as war, the death penalty and self defense do not qualify as murder, neither does abortion. 2nd degree murder also isn't premeditated. So is it therefore not murder? No.
    1
  1147.  @kingorange7739  That's not what premeditated means in a court of law. Premeditated means pre-planned. 2nd degree murder is not premeditated, but is considered murder because it is unlawful. Once again, that fetus also infringes on the woman's right. Not only that, legally, a fetus HAS NO RIGHTS. Objective morality does not exist. You will find culture and societies fine with killing and thievery in certain circumstances. Subjective morality can be used towards an objective goal. And again, abortion isn't murder. Facts don't care about your feelings.
    1
  1148.  @kingorange7739  Rights are inherent, granted to you by a government. Morally, I think its sick you would rather see a sentient being be abused and killed than a non-sentient fetus be aborted.
    1
  1149. Because a fetus is non-sentient. It cannot make a choice. You are trying to give rights to a fetus to supersede the mother.
    1
  1150. Its not except under certain circumstances. Its nearly always classified as unlawful termination of a pregnancy.
    1
  1151. @Humanity Galatica Well, that's your opinion. I think it's the only thing that grants rights to people, because I don't believe in "inherent" rights on a philosophical level
    1
  1152. No its not.
    1
  1153. You should be allowed an abortion for any reason up to a set point in time. That is your right.
    1
  1154. Because condoms work 100% of the time right? And just like if you get an STI, you can make a choice what treatment to take should you get pregnant. Adoption, Motherhood or Abortion.
    1
  1155.  @iroxursoxwithjello  No actually. Thats a gross overexaggeration for marketing. Honest medical professionals will.tell you that they are around 90 to 95% effective when use properly.
    1
  1156. Thats true of all people.
    1
  1157. There is only a developing body because it is attached to the mother and essentially parastizing her. What is a fetus without a mother? She is the sentient individual. Her fetus does not have rights above hers. She should do what she thinks is best, whether that be adoption, motherhood or abortion.
    1
  1158. No, but you're a lucky one. Don't be condescending to those of us who were abused by a broken system and were unloved by our parents.
    1
  1159.  @blueskybluesky3496  A fetus legally doesn't have a right the right to life, but even if it did, it doesn't supercede the mother's liberty. A doctor can't just take your organ without your consent, even if its the only way to save a life.
    1
  1160. Men should have a say, but no. It is ultimately HER decision. She is the one with the uterus. She is the one consenting to the pregnancy. It is no one's final decision but hers.
    1
  1161.  @chicangel2000  Yes it is okay. She did not consent to the fetus being in her body. She has the right to her bodily autonomy. I'm sorry that it worked out that way, but that was HER right.
    1
  1162. Because birth control and condoms are always affective, right?
    1
  1163.  IssyFishyy  Because everyone who engages in sex does it to get pregnant right? Everyone has a choice?
    1
  1164. Well, thats not true. Its just different for everyone.
    1
  1165.  @SH-is9xl  I believe what people mean by "post abortion syndrome" is certain mental illnesses that may persist because of anxiety or guilt after having an abortion, such as PTSD or Depression. These can and do happen. Though these are things that come with any trauma.
    1
  1166. Because people have rights. And people will fight to the death for those rights. Also no. Abortion terminates the development of growing child. To use words like "killing a helpless child" invokes an inflammatory reponse that is entirely disingenuous.
    1
  1167. That just makes you a hypocrite.
    1
  1168. As if pro-choice people don't use condoms/always abort.
    1
  1169. @Humanity Galatica One is sentient. The other is not.
    1
  1170. @Humanity Galatica Animals are not enemies. Humans are worse enemies to us than animals.
    1
  1171. How is abortion not responsible? Its recognizing you are unfit to care properly for a child.
    1
  1172.  @OMGUKILLKENNY2  Depends on the health and age of the dog, but thats a false equivalence fallacy.
    1
  1173.  @OMGUKILLKENNY2  Well its not. Considering one is sentient independent of its mother and one is not.
    1
  1174.  @OMGUKILLKENNY2  I also view the fetus as human life, because it is. Everyone is a clump of cells. Thats just a fact. I don't believe you should be allowed to take the rights of someone else.
    1
  1175.  @OMGUKILLKENNY2  Because I argue abortion is a legal and rights matter, not a moral issue. I can grant you abortion as being wrong but being a lesser of two evils. Legally, a fetuses rights stop at the uterine wall. If the object of discomfort is using his body without his consent then yes, in my legal opinion, he is absolutely justified in killing it. We don't care about life. You destroy life on a daily basis. We care about sentience.
    1
  1176.  @OMGUKILLKENNY2  That is a false equivalence fallacy. You evicting someone has nothing to do with a violation of your rights. Consent to sex is NOT consent to pregnancy. Not doing anything wrong? Its a parasite on the woman. Why do you think we stress neo-natal care? Because a fetus literally steals your nutrients to live. We could argue morals all day. But legally, she has the right to abort. Her fetuses right to life does not supersede her right to liberty. Whether or not you've ended human life is irrelevant. By the way, if you pay taxes and you live in the US, then you have indirectly ended human life. Holding one sentient life higher than another is hypocritical in my opinion. And yes, if allowed to develop will become sentient. So? No. Life to me is not inherently valuable or respected. I don't hold that opinion to other animals, so why humans? I'm not a hypocrite.
    1
  1177. Because this is a moral argument. Facts are neutral and can be used to debate either side. For instance, the same fact could be used to argue for or against abortion. Thats what happens when you debate a moral issue.
    1
  1178.  @gabbiel7130  We are animals. Animal: a living organism that feeds on organic matter, typically having specialized sense organs and nervous system and able to respond rapidly to stimuli. That includes humans Humans also have instincts. They do have a concept of right and wrong. But its limited to their environment. They do whats best for their species to survive, as do we. You actually need to take a biology class. Many animal species are smarter than humans. I have the legal right to my body. So yes, I do have the right to abort.
    1
  1179.  @gabbiel7130  Humans are animals whether you like it or not. By the way, bringing up a supernatural entity never proven to exist doesn't help your case.
    1
  1180.  @gabbiel7130  Humans are animals. Thats just a fact. God is not a fact. God has yet to be proven. Evoultion is a fact. It has been tested and proven. Now, God may one day be proven. But as of right now, creationism is a hypothesis. Adam and Eve did not literally exist. That is also a fact. You are free to believe in whatever you want, but your beliefs do not change reality. It hasn't stopped. Humans have stopped because we have evolved to our fullest capability. But there are things that are still evolving. Also, we didn't evolve from apes. Apes and humans share a common ancestor. Your DNA is 98% the same to that of primates. We just lucked out on the fusion of chomosome 2. No, you haven't seen a God's blessings. You've attributed natural occurances to God. Thats called confirmation bias.
    1
  1181. If "taking a life" is murder, then farming would be murder. Capital punishment would be murder. War would be murder. Euthanasia would be murder. But they're not. Murder is a LEGAL term. Not a MORAL one. You know what else is a living and growing being? That McDonald's cheeseburger you probably ate within the last week.
    1
  1182.  Salsa Bila  The right to life is equal to all other rights. Quit trying to put it above other rights. The point isn't to make a comparison. Its to prove a point. You didn't care about that other life that was taken. So be morally consistent.
    1
  1183.  Salsa Bila  No, I don't. I think to be morally consistent, you have to extend that "not killing" thing to all sentient life. A fetus, legally, doesn't have rights. And thats something we can even agree on that they should. But the rights of one do not trump the rights of another. If the fetus is human, then I know its human from conception. Its sentience that matters to me. I am consistent. You, however, are not.
    1
  1184.  Salsa Bila  And I have already stated that nearly all abortions are performed before sentience is achieved. Nearly everyone who is pro-choice has a "cutoff point". So no, I didn't contradict myself.
    1
  1185.  Salsa Bila  Thats a very easy statistic to google, and I am not in the habit of doing the work for for you. Yes, some people have the opinion that there should be no limit on abortion. Thats the problem with debating from morality. There are state cutoffs for abortion for a reason. You are quite ignorant if you think I'm lacking self-awareness. Bottom line, I don't care what someone chooses to do with their own body. Period. And to control what one can or cannot do with their own body is unconstitutional.
    1
  1186. And I wish she had. Why would anyone want to abort? Financial ruin. Mental health problems. Physically disabled. Rape. Incest. Medical complications. Straight up don't want a baby. There's a list.
    1
  1187. My parents didn't want me and my mom was guilted into having me. I was abused, neglected and hurt to the point of now as an adult, being permanently disabled. You're not the only one with a story.
    1
  1188.  @jaysims1067  I have two children and they are very happy. I'm just honest, unlike most people. Sure, you'll say that, but that's very rarely what happens in practice.
    1
  1189. No it isn't. By definition, murder is unlawful. That's like saying war is murder. We all lucky to have a life? Great job showing your privilege. Some of us are so unhappy we wish we never had life. All life is valuable? Prove it. Prove life is inherently valuable. Life only has value if someone gives it value. No one should be made to suffer. Death is not the worst option.
    1
  1190.  @hhhuthhhjj5599  Most people are happy to live? Where's your imperical data on that? Oh, thats right. You don't have any. Because you cannot speak for anyone else. Ever stop to consider that a fair number of people don't WANT life? You can't prove a subjective opinion. You may believe human life is valuable, but I do not.
    1
  1191.  @hhhuthhhjj5599  Depression is not the only condition tha incurs suicidal thoughts. To answer your question, depends on the situation.
    1
  1192. Because thats not terrible advice. People don't work like that.
    1
  1193.  M  I haven't been getting any notifications from you, so I apologize.
    1
  1194. The men should always be included. But they never have final say. And they shouldn't. Its not your rights in question.
    1
  1195. But a D&C can be a method of abortion. Its just also a medical procedure used for other things.
    1
  1196. Wouldn't you hate someone that was trying to restrict your rights to your own body? I don't hate people who are pro-life. I hate the pro-life argument. Because it prevents me from making my own choices in my own life.
    1
  1197.  @VD-yp4zq  No one has to justify an abortion to anyone other than themselves. It sucks having an abortion, no matter for what reason. I still keep my aborted fetuses remains.
    1
  1198. Your first anaolgy doesn't work. The person who owns the property is legally able to do what he wants with it. He owns it. He decides who lives there. He doesn't have to think about anyone else. If anything, that's an argument for pro-choice. Secondly, its a strawman. It IS her body. It is using her organ to develop into its own seperate entity. That's why we have cutoff dates.
    1
  1199.  @lilsmoothyymanp5679  Sure, you could make the argument that its selfish. But being selfish is not inherently a bad thing. Everyone is selfish. If you are doing all the work and paying all the bills, how is it scummy to kick out deadbeats who do nothing? No, I got that. But very few people have an abortion because they "just don't want it." Sex is for whatever reason the person is having it. Neither method you mentioned is how 96% of abortions are performed. Do you want to know how a real abortion is performed? With a pill. You're given a pill, the pill forces your body to miscarry, and you are given a D&C as you would a miscarriage. Hell, you can even keep the remains should you so choose. What you described is a late term (surgical) abortion, which are done nearly exclusively for medical reasons. Yes, fetuses do feel pain. After a certain period. This is long past when most abortions are performed. I'm all for making a universal cutoff date at sentience. I never said it wasn't human. But I don't believe humans are inherently valuable. So whether its human makes no difference to me. Abortion, to me, is a legal issue. Not a moral one.
    1
  1200.  @lilsmoothyymanp5679  Selfishness can be a good thing. Its important for self preservation. And yes. You can just kick out your wife. Its called divorce. You should not get an equal say if you do nothing to contribute. And you're really making an argument for pro-choice. Sure, the idea of killing a fetus is bad. I can grant you that. I also think its a necessary evil. The vast majority of abortions are done via a pill. Surgery is a late term/medical thing. I don't think humans are INHERENTLY valuable. I.e. I don't think you're valuable just because you're born. And its because you're not. Value is something you give or is given to you. Its descriptive.
    1
  1201.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  For me? Personally it's about 15 weeks. The brainstem is formed by then, and neurons are active.
    1
  1202. Well, humans are animals. I fail to see the problem.
    1
  1203.  @ethanm.2411  Except they're not.
    1
  1204.  @ethanm.2411  No, they're not. Humans are a classification of animals. Baby or otherwise.
    1
  1205. Thats not an argument against abortion. My response to that would be "since when did we care about life"? Sentience matters. Not life.
    1
  1206.  Electro Dvil  Yeah, except science does not support any moral arguments (though can be used to support or reject an idea) and the law is not on your side, nor will it ever be.
    1
  1207. The world doesn't work in your delusional fantasy. Thats why abortion is a choice.
    1
  1208. You don't? Terminate your parental rights.
    1
  1209. Its not. But guess what? Life isn't fair. How is it any more fair for a child to be raised in a toxic household?
    1
  1210.  Salsa Bila  Adoption isn't always a choice and does not guarantee happiness. Try talking to someone who never got adopted and was thrown out at 18 with nothing. Its not nihilistic. Its honest.
    1
  1211.  Salsa Bila  Depends on what type of adoption. Are you referring to a state adoption? (I.e. putting the child in a broken foster care system) or a private adoption? The difference is abortion doesn't allow for suffering. You cannot miss something you never had. Parents who place children up for adoptions don't go to orphanages. Those are for children who have lost their parents. They're given to whatever state system is currently in place. And as someone who both lived and worked in several, you aren't given a hell of a lot. Its why much of our suicide statistics and prison population spent a large deal of time in the system. Sure it is. But that child was given and taught life skills while in the home. Foster care is not known for doing very well in that department.
    1
  1212. Pro-life people believe abortion and euthanasia are immoral and should be outlawed. Pro-choice people believe that a woman should have the option to have an abortion should she decide, and that assisted suicide should be allowed.
    1
  1213.  IssyFishyy  You say that as if the fetus not only has rights (which it doesn't until a certain point) but is capable of giving a fuck.
    1
  1214. Except that isn't healthy. Denying your body wants is one of the leading causes for sexual violence. Sex isn't just about reproduction. Good. You were in a school that taught sex ed. My school banned it. And so do many others. Contraception fails. Adoption is broken. And people don't believe in God, a God who is all for abortions according to the Bible. Abortion is a right. Get used to it.
    1
  1215.  @issuesthatmatter2825  Uhh no you don't. Cells divide, grow and die. I know what you mean, but its a bad way to put it. No, its not. But I'm sentient.
    1
  1216.  @issuesthatmatter2825  I find the pro life arguments weak. Sentience has always been what matters. That's why we do cardiac life support. That's why we allow DNR's. That's why hospitals have slow codes. Because sentience has always been what mattered. You a vegan? Anti-death penalty? Anti-gun? Against the military? Doubt it.
    1
  1217.  @issuesthatmatter2825  So then killing in some aspects is justified. Then the only difference between us is I can understand the justification for killing a fetus and you can't.
    1
  1218. Except its not. Science does not take a stand on moral issues. Its neutral. You can just use science to argue one way or the other.
    1
  1219.  @cookfoodchef  Unlawful termination of a pregnancy is not homicide. Those two crimes do not carry the saem weight, unless you are referring to the act of unlawfully is an act of homicide. In which case, sorry for confusion.
    1
  1220. "Morally correct" is a matter of personal opinion. I don't think its any more moral to sit back and watch a child die at the hands of unfit parents than it is to allow parents to abort. Only difference is stage and sentience.
    1
  1221. Absolutely. But thats not a sure fire way to not get pregnant.
    1
  1222.  @lucypeka9959  Definitions of abortion vary depend on what source you use. In both medicine and science, abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by removal, rejection or expulsion of an embryo or fetus from or by the uterus. A miscarriage is a "self-abortion" one the body undergoes without the interference of anything else. This is one of the problems with defining abortion, and its why I tend to just stick with "termination of a pregnancy, most often through medical procedure."
    1
  1223. @Humanity Galatica But like...not for everyone. And we can clearly demonstrate that "abstinence only" teaching isn't effective.
    1
  1224. @Humanity Galatica No, Mary (if she existed) was raped by Joseph. You don't get pregnant without a sperm fertilizing an egg. Abstinence works in preventing pregnancy, but that wasn't what I meant. Abstinence DOES NOT work for everyone, because forcing yourself to be abstinent when you have a high sex drive is unhealthy.
    1
  1225. @Humanity Galatica Excuse me for not believing you. Those that force themselves to be abstinent when they need release are more disposed to sexual violence. This is proven. Never said you would die.
    1
  1226. They didn't bring up adoption because they'd get smacked down at how bad the adoption system is.
    1
  1227.  @davidkonno5577  Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. Abortion is taking responsibility, whether you believe it or not.
    1
  1228.  @sugasweet435  Sex is a human instinct. I think a better approach would be helpful sex education, which is not provided in schools. A plan that focuses on protection rather than abstinence. Sex being intimate is a religious/personal thing. Sex is designed for pleasure and reproduction. Thats it. My school was strictly abstinence. No where did it discuss that sex is fine and perfectly natural, but that protection is important. We agree on the parents issue
    1
  1229. Except I do have that right, regardless of the circumstances.
    1
  1230.  @annon3485  No one's ending a baby's life. You are, in most cases, terminating the development of a non-sentient parasite.
    1
  1231.  @juliameacham5828  No, I don't consider doing anything with your body that you want and consent to do bad. Your body, your rights, your choice.
    1
  1232.  @juliameacham5828  If you'd like to have a meaningful debate, I wouldn't mind.
    1
  1233.  @juliameacham5828  I'm not that type of person. I answer all my comments
    1
  1234.  @juliameacham5828  Of course. How would you like to proceed?
    1
  1235.  @juliameacham5828  My strongest pro-choice argument simply has to do with rights. We have equal rights. One does not supercede another. I believe abortion is more of a legal argument than a moral argument.
    1
  1236.  @juliameacham5828  It does have rights. But its rights does not supercede the mothers. Consent means everything. I am of the opinion that sentience should be where abortion is no longer an option.
    1
  1237. Which is where the sentient and sapient argument comes in. Thats the difference
    1
  1238.  @3ka-MC  Thats because you have a confirmation bias and you lived a privileged life free of abuse and neglect.
    1
  1239.  @sd-lc3bl  Because if they were actually a victim of abuse and neglect, they wouldn't have said every pro-choice argument is horrible. Its common sense. Not saying you couldn't have lived an abusive life and be pro-life, but you would understand and empathize pro-choice arguments.
    1
  1240.  @3ka-MC  Thats fine. However, I bet most of them would empathize with people who are pro-choice, whereas you do not.
    1
  1241.  @sd-lc3bl  It is common sense. Because anyone who has ever been through any type of abuse would understand how awful and broken foster care and home life could be. I literally said you can be pro-life and come from an abusive family. But you would understand where pro-choice people are coming from. Question, what's your opinion on human euthanasia/assisted suicide?
    1
  1242.  @sd-lc3bl  So someone shouldn't have a right to die on their terms and with as little pain as possible? That's very cruel of you in my opinion. Yeah, I disagree. I am permanently disabled because of an abusive system and would have rather been aborted.
    1
  1243. Fetus rights do not supersede the rights of the mother.
    1
  1244.  @5xmasterx548  They are equal. You are trying to place one above another.
    1
  1245.  @5xmasterx548  You are putting the right to life over the right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That isn't fair. Your rights stop where anothers begin and vice versa. Consent is everything.
    1
  1246.  @5xmasterx548  Because thats what this boils down to. Consent. If a women does not consent to the fetus using het body, then it is her right to do what she wants with her body. No. If thats the case, should I be allowed to, without your consent, take an organ from you because it will save my life? I have a right to live, right?
    1
  1247.  @5xmasterx548  A fetuses rights do not supercede the mother.
    1
  1248. @Great Gatsby Because the fetus legally has no personhood as it lacks sentience.
    1
  1249. @Great Gatsby The Constitution and the government defines the laws of the land. I would honestly agree with you. I would grant a fertilized embryo as a person. I would even grant abortion being evil. My debate is that of a legal one. I would also argue it is a necessary evil in the current period.
    1
  1250. @Great Gatsby It can be and that depends on your own sense of morality. I don't see a problem with abortion up until sentience, because sentience matters over life. Because I know first hand the harm it does to force a mother to give birth to an unwanted child, and I know the lengths women will go to when they feel trapped. Plus, outlawing abortion would not save anyone and would open up a can of worms. My right to life cannot impede on your pursuit of happiness. I cannot just take a kidney from you because I need one to live.
    1
  1251. There are currently 44,000 children waiting to be adopted. 26% of those children will commit suicide by the time they are 18. Over a third will be kicked out at 18 with nothing but a basic education, and half of them will end up in the prison system. How broken the adoption and foster care system is is something that is never discussed. The only way you guarantee a child is adopted is if you privately adopt. But that is a legal process that costs money, and your not always lucky enough to find a family that will pay those costs, not to mention any form of adoption still requires you to pay the expenses of pregnancy and birth. It isn't black and white. Stop making it so.
    1
  1252.  IssyFishyy  Its statistics, not discovery. We took a decade of children who spent a majority of their lives in and out of the foster care system. Do you not understand how statistics work?
    1
  1253.  IssyFishyy  Okay so you don't know how statistics work. We don't know it'll be the same case for them. I know many children who were adopted into loving and happy homes. That doesn't negate the ones who don't. Statistics look at a current group of people and gather data based on years of past results. These fluctuate with each year. "Objective statistic" doesn't exist. They change with time. Kinda like morality.
    1
  1254.  @alverytadier558  If thats your stance, you're pro-choice. Not pro-life. There is no mixing the two. They're the antithesis of each other.
    1
  1255.  IssyFishyy  It does happen. And those who are pro-life would force that child to give birth.
    1
  1256. Except the law says you do. Shove your own morals.
    1
  1257.  @TageChe98  Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. A fetus does not have the right to use a sentient human being without her consent, regardless of circumstances. You know what's also not right or humane? Forcing unfit people to be parents, or letting a broken state abuse them. People like you are the reason I have permanent disabilities. That I wasn't loved. That I had horrid things done to me. Because you thought a broken system was better than never having experienced anything.
    1
  1258.  @TageChe98  If a woman believes that giving birth is not in THE BABY'S best interest, she should have the right to abort. Unfortunately, you will also have people who just use abortion as birth control. No, what's selfish is forcing someone to do what you feel is right against their will. There are currently 44,000 children waiting to be adopted. Do you know what happens to the ones that aren't? They're abused by a system and then abandoned. You would rather see people suffer and be in pain then be terminated before they can feel. So no. I will blame you. Because its YOUR fault.
    1
  1259. Not really. The body wants sex,and to deny its urges is unhealthy, both for the mind and body.
    1
  1260. @Coaster Creator No its not true. That would be against federal law. You're just spewing lies to suit a narrative.
    1
  1261. Good thing your opinions don't matter then
    1
  1262.  @maroonmaroonmaroon2985  They aren't asleep. They haven't gained consciousness yet. Yes, they are alive, because they have growing cells that are alive and dividing. And yes, I have the right to terminate a pregnancy.
    1
  1263.  @maroonmaroonmaroon2985  Strawman argument, but I'll entertain you. If you are refusing to care for a sentient being independent of your body, that is neglect. So yes, you are doing something wrong. That is not comparable to having the sole ownership of your womb.
    1
  1264. I hope you know that those "local adoption connection centers" will not pay for anything. Private adoption is a legal procedure that requires money, which most women don't have. Thats why they give their child to the state. Most adopting couples will NOT foot the bills on your expenses. They may help where they can, but you will be left with the bulk of it. This is simply not realistic. You happened to get lucky.
    1
  1265.  @lastinglife4357  Show me a fetus that can exist without a woman's uterus.
    1
  1266.  @kingorange7739  Being dishonest again are we? You against euthanasia as well? How much do you like seeing people suffer?
    1
  1267.  @kingorange7739  You have to be against it in all circumstances, or you aren't pro-life. Just like you are with abortion. You think death is the worst possible outcome, so you'd rather see people take their own life after suffering, then have it taken for them when they aren't sentient.
    1
  1268. You make the assumption she paid for those tattoos. Maybe she got them when she had money and something changed. We don't know the whole story.
    1
  1269.  @edelweiss6768  Then its a good thing it isn't murder.
    1
  1270.  @design7054  Where exactly did they advocate for killing children outside the womb?
    1
  1271.  IssyFishyy  Since sentience defines personhood, it is very relevant.
    1
  1272.  @edelweiss6768  Personhood is a philosophical concept based on sentience. You can absolutely be member of a species and not be part of the collective concept. Most have a belief that rapists are humans, but they are not people. You comparing the Nazi's to abortion is just laughable. The major wedge between us is simply value.
    1
  1273. Why is the line at life and not sentience? Since when does anyone care about the concept of life? Oh and no. Its not that simple.
    1
  1274.  @fluchtigziege3202  Keep repeating yourself. You're still wrong.
    1
  1275. Yeah, because there's not already a systemic problem with the 44,000 children we have in the system...oh and by the way, adoption isn't always an option.
    1
  1276. So basically, you're a hypocrite that thinks only some people deserve rights.
    1
  1277.  @wangzai3746  I wrote a whole comment to you that you haven't answered.
    1
  1278.  @wangzai3746  You never wrote anything back to original post.
    1
  1279.  @wangzai3746  I unfortunately don't see a comment from you. The only comment from you was your original comment.
    1
  1280. Most people do not find out their even pregnant until after a heartbeat. And what you're actually hearing is a fluttering in the chest. The heart hasn't even developed. Hell, what your really detecting is the placenta exchanging blood. You won't hear it with a stethoscope. Do you honestly call that a heartbeat? Also, shouldn't the value be put on brain activity? You yourself don't seem to understand development
    1
  1281.  @jakiyranmcarthur4149  Most women do not find out their pregnant until they're between 8 and 10 weeks along. And no. The first "heatbeat" can be detected as early as 21 days.
    1
  1282.  @jakiyranmcarthur4149  Actually no. Its mostly dected around 12 weeks, as that is usually when most women have their first ultrasound.
    1
  1283.  @jakiyranmcarthur4149  And? That heartbeat is not a caridac organ. It is a flutter made by blood moving between the placenta and the fetus in the development stages of the cardiac muscle. The heart begins to form around 18 days in. I place no value on the heart. I place the value where it should be. The brain.
    1
  1284. Yes. Because everyone who has ever gotten pregnant has not been on birth control. You're just a hypocrit.
    1
  1285. Pro life is about telling women what they can and can't do with their bodies and taking away the rights of dying people. It is a life, but it is an okay thing to do when you are in a position in which you feel you cannot gove proper care to your child. Abortion is taking responsibility, whether you agree with it or not. Sex is more than reproduction.
    1
  1286. Oh yeah. Because thats ALWAYS an option right? No, didn't think so. Its not available everywhere because of crowding, nor is it free.
    1
  1287. Your tax dollars do not fund abortions. That is against the law. It is a bundle of cells. All organic matter is a bundle of cells. Since when did we care about life? Guess what? You don't control where your tax dollars go. Move out if you don't like it. I don't support capital punishment, but my tax dollars pay for it. No, its not your right.
    1
  1288.  @ragingharlot13  Planned Parenthood does more than abortions. Just because your tax dollars fund Planned Parenthood doesn't mean they fund abortions. The Hyde Amendment exists. They're terminating the growth and development of a fetus, and I couldn't care less. That is strictly up to the mother. The only misinformed one here is you. To set a child up for failure is despicable.
    1
  1289. Sorry that you all hate the truth. All organic matter is are clusters of cells. Except one has sentience where the other does not. You aren't special just because your human. Thats nonsense.
    1
  1290. The argument is about life vs sentience. By the way, you are pro-choice.
    1
  1291. Let me actually correct you. A person will only be charged with a double homicide if the woman is 5 months along or more, as 20 weeks is the cutoff date for most states. Most women who are murdered when they're pregnant? Their killer is charged with unlawful termination of a pregnancy. No, abortion isn't murder. Its not unlawful.
    1
  1292. There are currently 46,000 children in the foster care system waiting to be adopted. Tell me why a parent can't adopt one of them. Because thats not what they want. God has never been proven to exist, and the Bible certainly is NOT against abortion.
    1
  1293. "I think your body and the fetus are two different things." You're wrong and you're right. In the literal sense, you're right. Its a seperate entity. But in every other context, you're wrong. That fetus uses a woman's organ. It biologically depends on a sentient being to survive, at the detriment of its mother. It does not get that right without express consent. You can't be both. You are either pro-life or pro-choice.
    1
  1294.  @summertimesadnessdelrey8546  Umm no? They most certainly have conciousness. I believe the term you're looking for is a conscious. Those are two different things.
    1
  1295. Maybe for you. Be grateful you don't have an overactive libido.
    1
  1296.  @pizzarmin8270  Is it better? As someone who has lived that life, I'd argue it isn't. But thats a personal thing. There's tons of family's who want kids, yet there are 44,000 children currently waiting to be adopted. So where are their families? There's nothing inherently wrong with being a foster child, but there's rampant abuse that goes on in that system. You are not even provided a decent education, which is why many foster children end up in prison or as suicide statistics. You got adopted into a loving family. Thats great. I got abused and destroyed by the people who were supposed to love me. Thats why I support choice.
    1
  1297.  @pizzarmin8270  Some people can fix their lives. Some people can't. Who are you to tell people who don't want to live that they have to? Many people who are abused don't want to live. They would rather die than suffer. I don't believe life has inherent value or purpose. Thats something you make for yourself. They don't care. Why should you?
    1
  1298.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  You do realize that you don't go to school in the state system like you would at a public school right? You don't go to elementary, middle or high school in the foster care system. They do not pay for you and its not free. Also, when you leave an agency at age 18, you probably have between a 3rd and 4th grade education. You would not have the credibility to apply to college, nor would you have the skills necessary to apply and keep a job. It sounds like you don't know what the foster care system is like
    1
  1299.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  What do you think adoption is? Children that are put up for adoption by the state go into foster care. You're thinking of a private adoption.
    1
  1300.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  Except being ripped apart is not how abortions are performed, unless they are late term, and that is done almost exclusively for medical reasons. On top of adoption, you also don't know much about abortion. Perhaps you would rather choose life than death, but as someone who's life is fucked up because of that decision, I'd much rather choose death.
    1
  1301. Except its not, since murder is a legal term.
    1
  1302. @Humanity Galatica Exactly. Thank you for proving my point.
    1
  1303.  @themindofjohn4346  So is a DNR.
    1
  1304. Not all abortion doctors are male and the vast majority of late term abortions are for medical reasons.
    1
  1305.  @b6274  I know how late term abortions are performed. But they are almost performed for medical reasons
    1
  1306.  @b6274  There's no difference between early-term abortion doctors or late-term abortion doctors
    1
  1307.  @b6274  There are no differences. Abortion doctors are surgeons.
    1
  1308. The difference is you're sentient.
    1
  1309.  @flowersmakemehappy834  I literally answered this in a previous response.
    1
  1310. Way to step on the rights of mothers and the dying...
    1
  1311.  @person7340  A fetus isn't an infant.
    1
  1312. Because that would be a strawman argument. You are comparing the rights a mother has to the responsibility a parent has.
    1
  1313.  @douglasb.8397  Thats because a fetus uses her body. The father isn't the one who carries it around for 9 months. Not only that, but the primary custody parent can chose whether or not to revieve child support
    1
  1314. We draw the line at sentience and sapience.
    1
  1315. But that's not reality.
    1
  1316.  @a.v.d2315  Planned Parenthood doesn't just do abortions. Hope you understand that.
    1
  1317. Actually, using heroin isn't illegal, prostitution (in all honesty) should be legal, and sex trafficking is not consensual. The fetus is only developing by using the mothers body. So legally, she does have the right to do with it what she will within a time frame.
    1
  1318.  @thebuzzinc2757  Laws specifically prevent people from doing things. The act of shooting heroin is not illegal. However, possession and distribution is. The argument should be "ypu shouldn't get to regulate my body"
    1
  1319. Because adoption always means the child will be taken care of right? Adoption is always free right? Condoms and birth control are 100% effective right?
    1
  1320.  @ssjraikage7874  Umm no it isn't. Its a legal procedure to legally put them up for adoption and that does indeed cost money. SOME jurisdictions will allow the parents adopting out free service, but that is NOT the majority. I'd advise taking a law class. "Adoption is way better than killing". In your opinion. However, not everyone feels this way. Sex is way more than reproduction.
    1
  1321.  @ssjraikage7874  I was a failed abortion. The torture I suffered as a child has permanently damaged me, and has prevented me from living a life I deserve. Do all people think like me? No. But when you hear children scream every day that "they wish they had been aborted" maybe your view.
    1
  1322.  @ssjraikage7874  You might be glad that I wasn't aborted, but I am not. No one should be forced into doing something they do not want. Thats what our fathers died for. I don't empathize with the fetuses that died because they were not capable of caring and I trust their mothers did it with the best intentions. I empathize and sympathize with the parents who had to make that decision in order to realize they needed to make better choices. I wish I had been. And listen, I'm all for being safe. I'm all for abstinence if it works for you. I hope everyone exhausts every possibility before deciding to abort. But I understand that outlawing it will not save anyone. You will only create more people like me, who are miserable and unloved.
    1
  1323.  @ssjraikage7874  Once again, adoption should be looked into. But its not always free and its not always available because of the amount of children in our system. Leaving a baby on a doorstep is illegal, and will land you in prison. Whether or not you think abortion should be an option is up to you. The fact is, it is an option. And I think its vile that you would rather see someone suffer when they can feel and comprehend it than to allow them to be terminated before they are even aware they exist.
    1
  1324.  @ssjraikage7874  I can understand you not wanting that. I would honestly love to live in a world without abortion.
    1
  1325. Abortion is being responsible. Its realizing and accepting the fact that you cannot raise a child in a stable environment.
    1
  1326. Abortion isn't murder, and the law and Constitution don't give a damm about your opinion.
    1
  1327.  @user-sh2rc5kc7x  I agree with using protection. However, protection fails. You're right. Its almost as if sex and conception are two different actions where one is independent from the brain. And biologically, it is a parasite. It lives off another at the detriment kf the host, which is why you stress neonatal care.
    1
  1328. I have asperger's as well. Why do you assume abortions occur simply because the child is defective? Autism is something that cannot be found in utero. Do you know why people with handicaps are aborted? Because the mother cannot give them the proper care they need. Not because they don't want them. Also, I question that statistic. Also, I doubt you are actually pro-life. Because then, you'd be against abortions in all circumstances, including medical, rape and incest, and you'd also be against death with dignity.
    1
  1329. A man should NEVER have a right to a woman's body or vice versa.
    1
  1330.  @darcymr353  You literally said that a woman should not have the right to abort unless the man agrees with the abortion. That is literally giving a man the right to decide what a woman does with her body. Stop trying to sound smart and pretending you're smarter than you are.
    1
  1331.  @darcymr353  I don't have to. Your comment is clear.
    1
  1332.  @darcymr353  Forcing a woman to have an abortion because a man doesn't want it is still a violation of her rights. The only one who makes the final decision on whether a child is kept or aborted is the woman. My original comment still stands. A man does not have the rights over a woman's body and vice versa.
    1
  1333.  @darcymr353  Sure, a little. However, what your comment represents is just as vile as a woman being denied a right to abortion by the pro-life movement. You want men to have control over women's bodies.
    1
  1334.  @darcymr353  Because only the individual decides what to do with their bodies.
    1
  1335.  @darcymr353  Neither of them are insignificant. You don't want to step up and be a father even though you knew it was a possibility? Then don't be. A man has ways of not being a father just as a woman has ways of not being a mother. I don't argue from morality. Its a subjective concept. Unless of couse she raped him, should have thought about that before having sex as well. Making a mistake doesn't give you authority over someone's body. The only one who makes the final decision is the one who's liberty is in question.
    1
  1336.  @darcymr353  The point is it is up to the woman (or trans man) whether he or she wants to keep or abort a pregnancy. No one else has final say. I agree people enjoy sex, but to force an abortion is no better than forcing a pregnancy.
    1
  1337.  @darcymr353  Arguing from morality is a useless fallacy. We should argue from logic and reason. Not if he doesn't want to be a father. There are other routes he can take that doesn't infringe on a woman's bodily autonomy. Both parties consenting doesn't mean pregnancy is a mistake. Or an undesired consequence. They can't "sacrifice" liberty if they are doing so consensually. Especially when having children also provides a benefit.
    1
  1338.  @z-manoverstreet  Yes, everyone has rights. However, your right does not supersede someone else's. If it makes me happy to murder, my "right to the pursuit of happiness" does not trump your "right to life".
    1
  1339.  @z-manoverstreet  No. Thats the point. Your rights stop where anothers begins and vice versa. A fetuses right to life is equal to the mothers right to pursue happiness. So cannot put one over the other, which is what outlawing abortion would do.
    1
  1340.  @z-manoverstreet  The problem is the right to life does not supersede the pursuit of happiness. They are equal rights.
    1
  1341. Because abortion is a right. Right to autonomy. You impregnating a woman and her choosing to keep it, especially when she cannot afford it, is your responsibility as well. So you should help pay for it.
    1
  1342. What makes you think people who have abortions have no remorse? Should you also go to jail for putting down an animal for animal cruelty? You're killing them. You sound really uneducated.
    1
  1343. Yes...because lets pretend people's financial situations don't suddenly change in a matter of minutes. Oh wait...that's not reality.
    1
  1344.  @flowersmakemehappy834  Yes. Fuck human rights.
    1
  1345. @Humanity Galatica I said human rights aren't inherent and do not exist without a body enforcing them. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be enfoced if one is capable.
    1
  1346.  @fur8104  Yes? Because its true.
    1
  1347. @Humanity Galatica Then once again, I demand access to your kidney.
    1
  1348. So you'd risk potentially jailing innocent people? Guess what a miscarriage is called? Thats right. A self-abortion. So, explain to me how you would go about determining who had an abortion and who simply miscarried?
    1
  1349. Except, its not truth. Its a matter of personal opinion. As someone who was born only because of people like her, and was abused and neglected by a broken system, I can for CERTAIN say I would rather have never known life at all.
    1
  1350.  IssyFishyy  Yes, because I don't believe life has inherent value. We've been over this.
    1
  1351.  IssyFishyy  That's not a fact. That's an opinion.
    1
  1352. There are 45,000 children waiting. Take your pick.
    1
  1353. You still want to outlaw it for rape, otherwise you are a hypocrite. Condoms are 100% effective right? Sex is more than reproduction.
    1
  1354.  @pusscat5161  I found no evidence of non-consensual euthanasia in Belgium. What I read was about people thinking it was wrong to let children opt for euthanasia, which it absolutely isn't. You do know we technically have "non-consenting euthanasia" right? They're called slow codes.
    1
  1355.  @pusscat5161  No, I mean deliberately not helping a patient when it is not in their best interest, regardless of what they want. Hospitals have slow codes in place.
    1
  1356.  @pusscat5161  Then yes. Like that. And frankly, I have a love hate relationship with slow codes
    1
  1357. That is terrible advice. No, not everyone can. Everyone's libido is not like yours. Sex isn't just for procreation.
    1
  1358.  @taragonleaf8005  No, its not. Thats one reason we have sexual violence. No, not everyone can. Sex works differently for everyone. And you know that how? You're just making an assumption. Its for a lot more than procreation regardless of marriage. Sex doesn't just change because you get a legal document.
    1
  1359.  @taragonleaf8005  Because most people who preach abstinence only have that point of view.
    1
  1360. No its not. Fact, not opinion.
    1
  1361.  @taylorfischer9521  Because you seem to a) not understand that pro-life doesn't just apply to abortion and b) seem to think that its better to live a miserable existence rather than never live at all.
    1
  1362. Its not unless it meets certain circumstances. Most deaths involving a pregnant woman will have the charge of "unlawful termination of a pregnancy" not "double homicide". Also, its because during an abortion, there is consent on the part of the mother. She is engaging in her right to bodily autonomy.
    1
  1363. It should be considered but no. Its not always an optiom nor does it guarantee a happy life.
    1
  1364. Yet 96% of abortions take place before 9 weeks. So...I fail to see your point.
    1
  1365. Care more about the quality of life. Stop thinking death is the worst possible option.
    1
  1366.  @therealleddy364  No. They don't. Condoms have an 90 to 95% effectiveness. And rape/incest/medical problems make up about 2.3% of abortions combined. Thats still millions of people. So yes. It can be used as a point.
    1
  1367. Abortion is not murder. Murder, by definition, is unlawful. Killing =/= murder. No, most women get abortions because they are well enough to know they cannot care for a child. That is taking responsibility. And humans are selfish. That's no inherently bad. You need to come first in your own life. Of course you won't be replying. Because you have no argument.
    1
  1368.  @fluchtigziege3202  Lazy writing.
    1
  1369.  @fluchtigziege3202  You can keep going.
    1
  1370. No its not. Not in the states at least.
    1
  1371.  @ravenfighter9157  Sometimes. But yet people are dying to get here. I wonder why
    1
  1372.  @ravenfighter9157  Third and first as well.
    1
  1373.  @CocoTaveras8975  You do realize that abortions are almost never performed surgically right? Only late term abortions are, and thwy are done nearly exclusively for medical reasons. 96% of abortions are done before the end of the first trimester, and its literally done via medication. Yeah. Beautiful life. You're making a lot of assumptions there. You are just assuming that wvery fetus will be normal, and thats not accurate. Abortion is often performed because the mother realizes the child WON'T have that life you just described. Its not that it was worth nothing. Its the potential life wasn't worth the pain and suffering it would have experienced. How selfish do you have to be to believe YOU get to decide what happens with someone else's body? No, its not murder. Murder is a legal term, and you don't get to change the definition just because you don't like it. No one is killing a baby. They're terminating (or killing) the development of a non-sentient fetus. Quit pretending your morally superior. You take life every day. By the way, pro-choice doesn't just apply to abortion. I know several people who are anti-abortion but pro-choice. I WISH my mother had aborted me. I wouldn't have cared and it would have saved me a miserable existence and much pain and suffering. And to ignore the people who feel this way because you lived a priviledged life with everything you needed and parents who loved you is vile. The SC will never overturn Roe v Wade. Both the President and the SC have already stated as such. Abortion is a Constitutional right.
    1
  1374. Because sex is about more than baby making?
    1
  1375. @Itz Noel No its not.
    1
  1376. @Itz Noel Consequences? Potential pregnancy and STI's. What does that have to do with abortion?
    1
  1377. @Itz Noel Yes, but that wasn't what I said. I said that pregnancy wasn't the only reason people have or the body wants sex.
    1
  1378. @Itz Noel It can be for reproduction. It can also simply be for pleasure. Plenty of human bodies want sex when the same human minds do not want children. By the way, sex doesn't always feel good.
    1
  1379.  @christiandong3778  I never said a fetus wasn't human. It is. So what? You do realize that DNR's and hospital slow codes exist right? You find issue with them? No, its her uterus. Without which a fetus cannot exist. Its HER body. And also, no. Its not a baby.
    1
  1380.  @Uhreallymydude  A fetus is the unborn offspring of any mammal. If we're being honest and technical, a baby is the offspring of a human POST utero. Meaning after birth. Colloquially, sure. Its a baby. Medically and technically its a fetus.
    1
  1381. If it works for you great. If not, then stating that leads to potential sexual violence.
    1
  1382. Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.
    1
  1383.  IssyFishyy  Thats not how conjoined twinning works. They may have two developing hearts fused together, but conjoined twins like this almoat always die in utero or shortly after birth
    1
  1384.  IssyFishyy  Because I don't answer unrealistic hypothetical questions. Your question would entirely depend on how the heart was formed.
    1
  1385. @Humanity Galatica Why does what matter? Why does bodily autonomy matter? Because you have a right to everything that goes on in and with your body.
    1
  1386. No, its just being honest. All organic matter are clusters of cells, and a fetus isn't a baby. Regardless of what you call it, most women still feel negative emotions after an abortion. Thats a position almost no one wants to be in.
    1
  1387. @Humanity Galatica You know damn well that's a lie. The number of children waiting to be adopted far outweigh those looking to adopt.
    1
  1388. Kinda hard to see that when no one is pro-abortion.
    1
  1389. Yeah, you definitely sound like a psychopath and should consider getting help. Also, you should consider getting educated on how abortions are actually performed, since you believe the tired tale that they're ripped apart. That rarely happens, and when it does, its done almost exclusively for medical reasons.
    1
  1390. Because sex is a natural process that is more than reproduction.
    1
  1391. @UCfh8EswUmqiaToib1rLBeww Do I disagree that its a human? No. Because it is. Do I disagree that its "not my body?" Yes and no. I understand that rehtoric of "its a separate living thing with seperate DNA etc," but that arguement works the same for tumors. I disagree in the sense in that its not an independent person. If it were, simply removing it from the uterus would be no issue. But it dies if removed before viability is achieved. So it is my body because it is biologically dependant, but philosophically, you could classify it as seperate. Also, its always human if we are speaking about human fetuses.
    1
  1392.  @jamessmith4287  The unborn offspring of any mammal.
    1
  1393. Because adoption isn't free in mist places, is not available in all places because of space issues, and doesn't guarantee your child a quality life?
    1
  1394.  @ourblessedtribe9284  No, its not. Its a legal procedure. It was not free for my step mother to giver her child up for adoption. She had to legal fees, medical bills for tests and screenings, and court costs. In most places, its free if you are simply chucking your child into the state system. She went through with a private adoption.
    1
  1395.  @ourblessedtribe9284  Adopting a child can be free. Putting a child up for adoption can be free. It can also cost money. There's a difference between adopting a child and putting one up for adoption.
    1
  1396. Because its not scientifically inaccurate. Thats exactly what it is. In fact, thats what all organic life is at any stage at its most basic level.
    1
  1397. @Humanity Galatica Because many people support abortion is cases of rape, incest and the life of the mother as well as supporting euthanasia.
    1
  1398.  @blaecccuebbler7711  You're not anti-life by suppprting bodily autonomy. A tumor is alive. Its living tissue. Is removing it anti-life?
    1
  1399. @Humanity Galatica So you anti-gun? You vegan? You ever squished a bug? Its impossible for you to exist without taking life. Suicide isn't cowardly. Its despicable that you would allow people who WON'T get any better to suffer. We call those people anti-social, as you are incable of feeling empathy. Fuck humanity. You should live for you. Not for someone else. That is the epitome of selfishness.
    1
  1400.  @blaecccuebbler7711  So what? There's only a difference if life had inherent value, which is doesn't (unless of course you believe it does). My point is, if LIFE itself is what has value, how can you oppose getting rid of it in ANY capacity? Its not the LIFE that you care about. Its the SENTIENCE. People need to quit being hypocritical
    1
  1401.  @blaecccuebbler7711  You can't make sense about how its selfish to force someone to stay alive in a world they're miserable in just because it makes YOU happy? Then I can't help you.
    1
  1402.  @christynjohnson7719  No one's punishing a baby. And how will the infant not be punished if its born into a situation where it will be abused and neglected? How is that any better?
    1
  1403.  @LiterallyMark1  Actually, the Latin word means "hatching of young" or "offspring". No where in the etymology does a fetus relate specifically to a human. A fetus is the unborn offspring of any mammal.
    1
  1404. Nope. Thats a complete strawman. One deals in rights. The other deals with accountability.
    1
  1405.  @isaacsaiz6934  Yes, but not in the same manner. One has to do with Constitutional rights. You are forming a strawman
    1
  1406.  Salsa Bila  Sex is a natural want. Has nothing to do with procreation. Telling people to deny their sexual wants is terrible and unhealthy. Yes, proper steps should be taken. Yes, all avenues should be looked at before abortion. That doesn't detract from the fact that abortion should still be an option at this current moment in time.
    1
  1407. No one is pro-abortion.
    1
  1408. And there are currently 45,000 children waiting to be adopted. Take your pick.
    1
  1409. I'm pro-choice and proud.
    1
  1410. That's not what that word means.
    1
  1411.  @MCdi-rt8tb  I meant the word "murder".
    1
  1412.  IssyFishyy  And? Killing =/= murder.
    1
  1413. You will never repeal Roe vs Wade.
    1
  1414. Yes, strictly because abortion is a constitutional right. If a woman does not feel she can handle a pregnancy or a child for any reason, she has the right to abort. At least before a certain period.
    1
  1415.  @laurenmiller9482  1. Morality is subjective. 2. Abortion is protected under the right to liberty. This is why Roe vs Wade was never struck down, even by a conservative Supreme Court.
    1
  1416.  @laurenmiller9482  And morality is entirely subjective. The reason Roe v Wade passed is because it is in the constitution. The right to liberty.
    1
  1417. So is the burger you ate for dinner. So what? Its not your business.
    1
  1418.  @Amy-zw4mk  So what? If your argument is life is valuable, then that applies to all life. Humans are animals as well. This isn't a moral issue. Its a legal one.
    1
  1419.  @Amy-zw4mk  Then that is your opinion. I don't think human life is inherently valuable. Because there is no one that likes abortion. However, there are some that believe it is the lesser of two evils. The fact remains its a woman's right to abort.
    1
  1420.  @mathildeyoung1823  The right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness. You also have the right to bodily autonomy. And if you made abortion illegal, not only would you not save anyone, you would prosecute and jail innocent people, such as people who simply had a miscarriage. You'd have to make sure they didn't force themselves to abort.
    1
  1421. Hey guess what? Pro-choice doesn't mean anti-life nor is abortion murder. Having a child they couldn't take care of would also be irresponsible. Perhaps now they've learned.
    1
  1422. If all of your friends are pro-life, its probably because they don't know what pro-life really means. Your not selfish for wanting to do whats best. It is not okay to strip rights away from pregnant women and the dying.
    1
  1423. Except they make the assumption that people abuse it without any evidence to back that up? How is mental health or sudden financial problems (which are both the reasons for a majority of abortions) any less valid than rape? Pro-life likes to use the 2% stat for the abortions that occur because or rape, incest or medical problems. I'd be willing to bet about that same percentage of people actually just use abortions as birth control.
    1
  1424. You also should read the flip side of the coin, about the thousands of babies murdered/abused/neglected by unfit parents and the system. The strong and empowering woman is the one who does whats best for herself and her child, even if everyone else is against her. Congrats. Your anecdotal story is one of the minority lucky ones.
    1
  1425. They are.
    1
  1426. And you don't. That's why the Hyde Amendment exists.
    1
  1427. There are currently 44,700 children in the US alone waiting to be adopted. Guess what percentage of them will be kicked out at 18 with no education, no job skills, and no financial stability. 87% of our current prison population spent over a year in foster care, either for abuse or adoption. Congrats. Your child was one of the lucky ones. Meanwhile, I was permanently disabled and failed by the state because my mother couldn't care for me. Anecdotal evidence isn't worth a damn.
    1
  1428.  @VsStudiosPA  Unless the adoption is a private adoption, children are placed into foster care by the state and adopted out. There are 2 different types of adoption. Private and state. Nearly all adoptions are state adoptions, because most people cannot afford to hire a lawyer for a private adoption. I do this for a living.
    1
  1429. Its not just for procreation. Thats its basic function. Its a pleasure response. It activates the same neuroreceptors that people have when they do drugs. It releases natural endorphins that act as a painkiller. So what if its for our pleasure? You come first in your own life.
    1
  1430. You show me a fetus that can develop without using a woman's organ, and you may have a point. Its not homicide to remove something you don't want from your body. Its not my fault the fetus dies if removed from my uterus.
    1
  1431.  @LaviniaEllerton  When did I say it wasn't a human life? It is. The thing is, that doesn't matter. No, it usually is killed first and then removed. But you do realize that is a consequence either way right? You make it sound like if there was a way to remove the fetus without killing it, and keep it alive, that it wouldn't be done. And that's frankly not reality. Actually, no its not. One, a fetus has no legal right to life nor is it considered a person under the law. And two, abortion is not unlawful. It actually isn't murder. Killing does not always equate to murder.
    1
  1432.  @espakuz2450  Morality is subjective. Manslaughter would be accidental death. Its not murder or manslaughter. Its just killing.
    1
  1433. No, its just a fact. We're all a cluster of cells. If I were to grant you that abortion is wrong, I would still argue its the lesser of two evils depending on circumstances.
    1
  1434.  @shadowdestroyer5679  Most abortions are not performed surgically. What you are referring to is late-term abortions, which are illegal in most states and which I do not agree with. Wanna know how most abortions are performed? Medication that forces the body to self-abort. You can't feel anything without a brainstem.
    1
  1435.  @shadowdestroyer5679  What isn't true? You'll have to be more specific.
    1
  1436. So is forcing your ideals on others.
    1
  1437.  @JulianQuiamhor  What? Respect pro-life? No. I don'.
    1
  1438.  @Henry-gv3cy  Yes. Yes I am.
    1
  1439. The problem is, people will. Its a natural desire.
    1
  1440.  @lanternlant1280  I am abhorrently against it.
    1
  1441. Should be considered. But its not always a valid option.
    1
  1442.  @sunnyskys2428  Because that's reality? Private adoptions are legal processes, and there is a number of reasons why the state may not take your child
    1
  1443.  @flowersmakemehappy834  Yep. Just fuck the right to liberty. Hey, I need a kidney. You deserve to be forced to give me one.
    1
  1444.  @flowersmakemehappy834  Abortion isn't murder, so I fail to see a comparison.
    1
  1445.  @flowersmakemehappy834  And that isn't the definition of murder, any more than shooting someone who comes onto your property is.
    1
  1446.  @idklost6331  It's a fetus, not a child. Yes, it has its own DNA. Heartbeat means nothing.
    1
  1447. That fetus is attached to you. It biologically is dependant on the mother. Without her, it has nothing. That is HER body and HER right.
    1
  1448.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  You could make the argument it is a person, and I would even agree with you. That being said, it isn't sentient at the time of most abortions. It does have the same rights. You are trying to give it rights OVER the mother. One persons right does not supersede another. Sex isn't to have kids. Its a part of life. I'm all for safe sex and exploring all avenues. That includes abortion
    1
  1449. Yeah so is wearing mixed fabrics.
    1
  1450. Depends on who my parents were. Knowing what my life would be, I would have 100% chosen death. Sex is about more than reproduction, and not wanting a child should not prevent you from doing something natural and healthy. Rape, incest and medical complications make up about 2.3% of abortions. Thats hundreds of thousands of people. And you want to take away their bodily autonomy. Regardless of whether or not YOU believe they are human beings (which is something I even agree on) their rights DO NOT trump the mothers rights. The Constitution does not work that way. I am a woman. I am also a feminist in the traditional sense. You, as a male, SHOULD have a voice and say. You fertilized the egg. However, it is MY BODY the fetus is using and I HAVE final say. The fetus does have the same cells (i.e. red and white). I assume you mean the same genetics. Also, your blood type is determined by your parents. Also, lets not forget the only way a fetus forms is by attaching to the placenta of the uterus via the umbilical cord and using the nutrients of the mother. It is her body. It is her womb supporting that development. Without it, it does not exist.
    1
  1451.  @isaiah2309  Yes actually. Late ter abortions (illegal under federal law by the way) do disturb me. However, that is not the majority of abortions. Since its illegal by law, it is murder. And I have always thought it was a human. Because it is.
    1
  1452.  @isaiah2309  Abstince does not work for most. The human body, wants sex. By all means, be abstinent if you can. Even naturally it isn't just about reproduction, although that certainly plays a big role. Yes, absolutely you should use protection if you can, but as you said, thats not 100% effective. Life being a "beautiful thing" is just your subjective opinion. I don't personally believe life is inherently valuable. Also, I've never understood the whole "abortion is convenient". Its not. Its not covered by health insurance and its demonized by the public.
    1
  1453.  @isaiah2309  Also, there are currently 41,000 of children in foster care waiting for good homes. Where are the parents lining up? They don't. Putting your child into the system does not guarantee them a happy life. Statistically, about a quarter of those who are in foster care for a long period of time will either commit suicide or end up in prison as adults. You are not treated well by the state, not given an education, taught very little life skills, and are kicked out at 18.
    1
  1454. Because its a natural bodily function. Because some women are victims of pimps and traffickers. Because its sometimes their only source of income. Take your pick.
    1
  1455.  @Slimchamberlain0  None of what I said is rape. And yes, you're right. People should be more responsible. That doesn't negate their right.
    1
  1456.  IssyFishyy  Morality is not, and will never be, objective. Just as in the US, abortion is not, and will never be, murder. You stating it does not make it fact
    1
  1457.  IssyFishyy  A fetus is not a person. It is a member of the human species, but it does not fit the definition of personhood. And that is how we legally classify humans. Morality is subjective.
    1
  1458. @Humanity Galatica Murder is a legal term
    1
  1459. @Humanity Galatica Correct.
    1
  1460. @Humanity Galatica Its not murder by the definition of murder in the US. That is not subjective. Now the definition of murder is subjective from country to country.
    1
  1461. Because consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. Having sex does not mean I give permission for a fetus to use my uterus.
    1
  1462. First of all, because its not a baby. While we may call it a baby colloquially, "baby" means post utero. Its a fetus. Secondly, its because even if we grant the fetus the right to life (which it legally doesn't even have in the US), its rights stop where yours begin. Even if death is the ultimate consequence, I am not obligated to let you use my organ. This isn't trying to change your opinion. Just offer another perspective.
    1
  1463.  @Douche_bag420  I understand, which is why I just gave you a different perspective.
    1
  1464.  @edelweiss6768  That means nothing. You aren't special hon. You're just another human. All organic matter is clumps of cells. Up to you how much value you put on everything.
    1
  1465. Except murder is strictly a legal term, something abortion does not fall under. By the way, the abortion of a 6 month old fetus? Nearly done exclusively for medical reasons, as all late term abortions are.
    1
  1466.  @judahmarx9742  Abortion is not murder. And I'm sorry. But your Bible is FULL of genocide. So I doubt your God, if it exists, cares.
    1
  1467.  @judahmarx9742  I don't believe in your contradicting fairytale
    1
  1468. Thats unhealthy and unnatural to most. The body naturally wants sex.
    1
  1469. Or how about choose the option best suited to your situation and have safe sex should you want it.
    1
  1470. A fetus without sentience cannot give consent. A fetus inside the womb has rights equal to that of the mother. Its right to life does not supersede her right to bodily autonomy. Abortion is not murder. Thats not an opinion. Abortion is also not convenient. Quit pretending you care about life. You probably eat meat. Probably support the military. Probably own a gun. And are probably in favor of capital punishment.
    1
  1471.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  It makes me sad to hear that unfit parents abused and neglected their child until it died, or the state threw out a young adult with no chance of a future.
    1
  1472.  @user-pp8ru6uu1s  I absolutely agree abortion should be a last choice. The thing is...it should be a choice. And it usually is the last choice. A vast majority of the time, a woman chooses abortion because their partner abandons them and will not step up to support them or the child. Just because people have abortions doesn't mean they should never again have children. They made a decision about what was best for them at that time. Situations change. 1. Adoption is not always an option, nor is it always free. Also, it doesn't guarantee happiness. 2. You CANNOT just give your child away. That is child trafficking and is a felony. Its a LEGAL process. Unless of course, contracts are in place (such as a surrogate) and that requires MONEY to hire a LAWYER. If you want a child and are in the situation to raise one, more power to you. However, abortion is on the table for those who are not in that position.
    1
  1473.  @bobbiedunlap4745  The point I was trying to make was if you claim to care about "LIFE" or claim "ALL LIFE IS VALUABLE" yet you are for those things, you are a hypocrite. Whether or not its human or innocent shouldn't matter. Its sentient. What "innocent child" is harmed in abortion? A fetus is not a child. Medically or scientifically. You completely misunderstood my point. I was not comparing abortions to the military, or animals, or capital punishment. I was refuting a hypocrite who claimed "life" in a general sense was precious, but support things that ended life.
    1
  1474.  @bobbiedunlap4745  No, they shouldn't. Because they are sentient and have rights. If given the option to never experience anything, or experience a life full of hardship, I would say the former is better. That was what I was saying.
    1
  1475.  @bobbiedunlap4745  No one is killing a child. You are stopping the development of what is essentially a parasite that will develop into a child if left alone. And if you're really against abortion, isn't it hypocritical to be for it in any circumstance?
    1
  1476.  @bobbiedunlap4745  I don't believe life is inherently valuable. Yes, my opinion is simply my opinion. But i have the right to bodily autonomy. I decide what happens in my body.
    1
  1477.  @bobbiedunlap4745  I never argued that they aren't human life. They are. Except that isn't what matters to me. Life is not what I find relevant. Where did I ever say its not life? I didn't.
    1
  1478. Why? Abortion is taking responsibility, just like adoption and motherhood.
    1
  1479.  @shakiradaley6936  So? How is that not taking responsibility? Its realizing you cannot adequately care for that child. Irresponsibility would be having it anyway and not taking proper care of it.
    1
  1480. Affordable birth control actually is hard to get, especially since for women, most forms of birth control are now prescription only. Condoms break and fail. Your right. They shouldn't be having sex. But they do. Because its natural.
    1
  1481. Abortion isn't murder. There's no reason to try and change your mind because a) your biased and b) you're objectively wrong. At least here in the states.
    1
  1482.  @cactustree6009  I never said you weren't worthy of debating. You certainly are. But you are biased, as you already have a presumption. I can argue that abortion isn't murder since thats a legal term, and I can argue why abortion is a necessary evil right now. What I can't do is convince you of something you've already formed a solid position on.
    1
  1483. They may have that right, but that option is not always available. And I love how people actually think that adoption isn't considered as an option is a majority of cases.
    1
  1484.  @IssyFishyy  One, because its not unlawful. And two, because legally, a fetus is not considered a human being (something even I don't agree with).
    1
  1485.  @mementomori1749  Its not, and you stating that shows me you know nothing about the law. The murder of a pregnant woman must meet very specific criteria for a double homicide charge. You know what the ACTUAL charge is? Unlawful termination of a pregnancy.
    1
  1486.  @IssyFishyy  And you would be correct. Unlawful means against the law. Murder is a legal term. Outside of a society with laws, murder has no meaning. Killing? Sure. That's the term you should be using. I know. I agree with you. I understand its a human from conception (assuming we're talking about a human fetus). I just don't care. It doesn't matter that its human. I don't think any life, human or otherwise, has inherent value.
    1
  1487.  @IssyFishyy  Murder and homicide are two words for the same thing. Murder is just the common word for homicide. So no. They're exactly the same thing. Outside of a law, murder has no meaning. Because murder, by definition, is unlawful. And I personally think a relativist is the best position to be in. Because as I said in another comment if you aren't a relativist, you're a hypocrite. But just for the record, I absolutely believe abortion should be a last resort. And I hope one day we no longer have a need for it. I just always believe the choice should be there.
    1
  1488.  @sahab6298  Oh I know. I just never understand where "the pregnancy is inconvenient so lets just abort it because its easy" argument.
    1
  1489. I'm sorry but I don't believe you. If you didn't have a place to live nor any income, there would have been no way to support yourself or your child. So someone has helped you, whether it be you got a job, help from the government, or family and friends.
    1
  1490. Your grammer needs work. Perhaps don't call names when you type like a 4-year-old.
    1
  1491. You can opt-out of child support. Give up your parental rights. However, that argument is a strawman.
    1
  1492. No. Most people think abortion is wrong. However, most people also think bringing a child into the world when you are unfit is also wrong, and that abortion is the lesser of two evils.
    1
  1493.  @mathildeyoung1823  No actually. Most people are not pro-life. They claim to be when they're anti-abortion or anti-abortion with circumstances
    1
  1494.  @mathildeyoung1823  If you support abortion in any circumstances, you are not pro-life by definition. Identifying as something doesn't make you that when you don't adhere to its definition. Being against abortion doesn't make you pro-life. It makes you anti-abortion.
    1
  1495.  @mathildeyoung1823  No its not because the definition of pro-choice is having the choice of what to do with your life, whether it be euthanasia or abortion. Stop trying to change the meaning of words to fit your narrative. Pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion.
    1
  1496. God condones abortion. A pregnant woman who is injured and aborts the fetus warrants financial compensation only (to her husband), suggesting that the fetus is property, not a person (Exodus 21:22-25). • The gruesome priestly purity test to which a wife accused of adultery must submit will cause her to abort the fetus if she is guilty, indicating that the fetus does not possess a right to life (Numbers 5:11-31). • God enumerated his punishments for disobedience, including "cursed shall be the fruit of your womb" and "you will eat the fruit of your womb," directly contradicting sanctity-of-life claims (Deuteronomy 28:18,53). • Elisha's prophecy for soon-to-be King Hazael said he would attack the Israelites, burn their cities, crush the heads of their babies and rip open their pregnant women (2 Kings 8:12). • King Menahem of Israel destroyed Tiphsah (also called Tappuah) and the surrounding towns, killing all residents and ripping open pregnant women with the sword (2 Kings 15:16). • Isaiah prophesied doom for Babylon, including the murder of unborn children: "They will have no pity on the fruit of the womb" (Isaiah 13:18). • For worshiping idols, God declared that not one of his people would live, not a man, woman or child (not even babies in arms), again confuting assertions about the sanctity of life (Jeremiah 44:7-8). • God will punish the Israelites by destroying their unborn children, who will die at birth, or perish in the womb, or never even be conceived (Hosea 9:10-16). • For rebelling against God, Samaria's people will be killed, their babies will be dashed to death against the ground, and their pregnant women will be ripped open with a sword (Hosea 13:16). • Jesus did not express any special concern for unborn children during the anticipated end times: "Woe to pregnant women and those who are nursing" (Matthew 24:19).
    1
  1497. Mmm no. You helped make the child. If you don't want to be with the mother, you have the financial responsibility to take care of the problem you helped cause. Abortion is not disposing responsibility. Its taking a just as much as motherhood or adoption. One has nothing to do with the other.
    1
  1498. Pro-choice women: Its MY uterus in question here. No one else gets final say. Science has no opinion on moral issues. Its neutral.
    1
  1499. It is a cluster of cells. All organic life is. Who cares if its human? We have slow codes and DNR's. Where's your outrage for that?
    1
  1500. @Humanity Galatica Yeah, how well does that work? You don't want to pay higher taxes, remember?
    1
  1501.  @mrstilton2654  Then you are pro-choice. Pro-life by definition is against abortion in all circumstances
    1
  1502.  @mrstilton2654  Because that is the established definition of pro-life. A person who is against abortion and euthanasia. You don't get to change the definition of a word because you don't like it. Besides, you should be happy. Being pro-life is a minority for a reason.
    1
  1503. @Humanity Galatica No, you really don't. You're contry is not going to die off anytime, nor is the species in any danger.
    1
  1504.  @mrstilton2654  You haven't given me the correct definiton, and I literally proved it to you. If you don't like that, argue with a linguist. You are, by definition, pro-choice. Even if you were entirely against abortion, but you were for euthanasia? You'd still be pro-choice. Pro-life is against euthanasia and abortion in ALL circumstances. If you preach to be against something, but then condone that thing, that is in fact hypocrisy. There is no gray area in this context. It doesn't matter what the situation is.
    1
  1505.  @mrstilton2654  I never got the notification, which is why I am responding three days later. You aren't "predominantly" anything. My whole original point was that you can't be both pro-life and pro-choice. One is the anthesis of the other. You tried to give an interpretation of a definition that wasn't accurate, then got mad when you got called out. And again, the subject of whether is someone is pro-life or pro-choice is not a grey area. You are one or the other. This has nothing to do with the morality of abortion.
    1
  1506.  @mrstilton2654  There has never been a case of legislation on abortion that has passed that made an exception for rape. Neither Alabama nor Texas had a rape exception. Would you agree with that legislation? Right. And then I provided you with the definition of opposed. Here it is again: eager to prevent or put an end to. Pro-life: opposing abortion and euthanasia. No where does this definition make an exception in any circumstances, because to make an exception would be hypocritical, since pro-life's cry is that the fetus is alive and human and therefore is its own being. To make an exception for rape would essentially say that the value of the fetus is dependent on how its conceived, which is not something pro-lifers would agree with. If we were debating about the morality of abortion, then yes. That would be a gray area. But we aren't. We're debating about the definitions between pro-life and pro-choice. There is no grey area here. You are one or the other.
    1
  1507.  @mrstilton2654   But that legislation has never passed. So you didn't answer my question. Do you support the legislation that have not made exceptions for rape or the life of the mother? I already have. Numerous times. I am not going to continue doing the same song and dance with you. You are, by definition, pro-choice. Don't like that? Then don't support abortion for rape victims. Sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. I am well aware that people take a similar stance to you. They would also be pro-choice. They just don't seem to have a problem with that label, and it sounds to me like you do, which I don't understand. If I'm the first person you've come across that doesn't try to bend definitions to suit a position, that's honestly really sad. These words are anthesises. You cannot be both. Just like how you can't alive and dead. Or atheist and thiest. They contradict each other. You can have a conditional opinion. That's not the issue. The issue is you having that opinion and then trying to state your pro-life. Your opinion contradicts the definition or pro-life. This isn't an opinion. Its a fact. Pro-life is opposed to abortion and euthanasia. Pro-choice is not. You can be anti-abortion and be pro-choice. You can set standards on what situations you find abortion acceptable. But in both of those cases, you are still pro-choice. If the reason you are pro-life stems from inherent value of life, then yes. You would be a hypocrite. If you support abortion in any case, at all, you are pro-choice. Period.
    1
  1508. I highly doubt you actually are pro-life. You're probably pro-choice or what we call "pro-life with special circumstances".
    1
  1509. Its not that we don't have good arguments. Its you have a stance on the issue and don't think our arguments are good enough. I don't think pro-life has any good arguments. That burger you ate in the last week had a head, arms and legs too.
    1
  1510. Excuse me, but as long as they're not sentient and using my uterus and using me to develop then I do have the right to terminate them. Murder is a legal term and does not apply to abortion. The fetus's right to life is NOT greater than my right to liberty.
    1
  1511.  @davidgeier6365  They are usually sentient between 10 and 12 weeks when the brainstem finishes developing. But all rights are created equal. The right to life cannot impede on the right to liberty. That is why abortion is legal. If a woman dosen't consent to a fetus using her uterus, it is violating her rights. And if we wanted to be really technical, the unborn do not have constitutional rights. (Which is something even I disagree with)
    1
  1512.  @davidgeier6365  The Constitution says all rights are equal. Its not trumping the right to life. Let me give you an example. If I have been in a severe accident and will die without a blood transfusion, and you happen to be a match, should you be FORCED to donate blood to me simply because it will save my life? No. You shouldn't be obligated to give your body to someone else, whether that be another sentient individual or a fetus. I totally agree that steps should be taken to prevent unwanted pregnancies. But thay starts with access to contraception and better sex education.
    1
  1513.  @davidgeier6365  Umm no they aren't? At least not for females. Nearly all forms of contraception are by prescription only in the US. I don't understand where you get the idea that you can get contraception in a gas station, unless you're referring to condoms and occasionally plan B. I understand that only abstinence protects 100%. But consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy.
    1
  1514. If he doesn't want to pay child support, he has options available to him. He could fight in court for custody of the child or he could sign his parental rights away. Systemically, the system isn't fair to men, as both of these methods require money for legal fees. The issue is, child support is a mandate. Abortion is a constitutional right.
    1
  1515. Since most abortions take place before sex can be determined, that claim is unverifiable.
    1
  1516. The issue has never and should never be life. It should be sentience. And it also depends greatly on whether you find life inherently valuable.
    1
  1517. And many of us wish we were never alive to begin with.
    1
  1518.  @TheJReZone  Considering surgical abortions only occur in medical necessity cases, I doubt you know how most abortions are performed.
    1
  1519.  @kingorange7739  Abortion isn't murder.
    1
  1520. Because situations may suddenly change? Because most people don't have sex to make a baby?
    1
  1521.  @michaeldesanta5701  Having an "if" mindset is not only unhealthy, its unrealistic. You can't go your whole life wondering what if. Sure, you should be ready. But people aren't. And situations suddenly change. That's why abortion is a right.
    1
  1522.  @michaeldesanta5701  There's a difference between being cautious and paranoid. And yes. Most people do act without thinking.
    1
  1523.  @navyavadlamudi1899  No. No its not. Science has no basis in moral discussion. You can only use science to back up your argument.
    1
  1524. The Nazi's did it with sentient humans, which a fetus is not. Not believing human life has inherent value is not the same. We take abortion on a case by case basis. Often, its not JUST poverty that drives an abortion. Abortions are taking responsibility. Its recognizing your inability to care for a child. What is NOT responsible is having a child you then abuse and neglect, because you don't have the resources to care for it.
    1
  1525. Because for some it is. Try talking to people who have been tortured by their families or the state. That's why it should be a choice. Those that are already in the system should have a right to live or die as they see fit. Because unlike a fetus, they are not interfering with another person's rights.
    1
  1526.  @GoldenWolf248  Because it requires the use of a woman's uterus, which unless she consents to, is a violation of her right to liberty. I never said it wasn't human. It is.
    1
  1527.  @kg7518  You don't know that.
    1
  1528. No it isn't
    1
  1529.  Lizzie Allen  Funny. I don't see pro-lifers doing that either.
    1
  1530. Except no. Thats not how that works. She has a right to terminate a pregnancy at any point for any reason within legal parameters. Whether or not you think that is immoral is your opinion. Which doesn't matter.
    1
  1531.  @-Benja  Except its not murder.
    1
  1532. Yeah? All organic life is clusters of cells.
    1
  1533. Adoption does not guarantee a good life, nor does Pro-life only refer to abortion. Adoption isn't free, and pro-life also takes away the right to die.
    1
  1534. Not always an option, not always available, and doesn't guarentee a happy life.
    1
  1535. No its not, because the body naturally wants sex for more than reproduction. Some people, like me, don't have that sexual drive. Abstinence is easy for us. But for many others, its not like that.
    1
  1536.  @MiaAshley93  Getting married doesn't just make you more responsible and one shouldn't have to do something unhealthy to please the masses.
    1
  1537. Because thats 100% effective, right?
    1
  1538.  @adamv.9749  That number proves you didn't do any research. Just because thats what's printed on the box, doesn't mean thats accurate. In fact, studies have found that condoms prevent pregnancy between 85% and 90%. Now, I'll back that up by saying its still something worth using. However, regardless of whether a condom is used or not doesn't change someone's rights.
    1
  1539. You're wrong. Boom, there. I said it. Facts don't care about your feelings.
    1
  1540.  @ethanm.2411  And you're wrong, because words have established definitions. Get back to me when its been made illegal. Then I will agree its murder
    1
  1541.  @wzdavaitsya  Which you know damn well is a lie. They aren't aborted because their inconvenient. They're aborted because the mother feels she cannot provide a healthy, stable life for the child.
    1
  1542.  @wzdavaitsya  I think you and I have very different definitions of inconvenient. Just because you use loose language that is technically correct doesn't make it intelligent.
    1
  1543. Not always an option.
    1
  1544.  @jrjm8582  "I would personally rather live in that system than be killed" You might feel differently if you ever lived in that system. Also no, sometimes the State overlooks things. Thats how children die to unfit parents.
    1
  1545. No one is pro-abortion. Being pro choice comes with all the same options as pro-life. It just allows for an abortion if the woman thinks thats the best decision.
    1
  1546. Nope. Murder is a legal term that abortion does not fit the definition of.
    1
  1547.  @bdgdbdgd  Murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. Fetuses are neither legally human (even though they are biologically) nor is abortion unlawful. So no, its not murder. Quit being dishonest.
    1
  1548.  @woobeewooo  To show that by definition, abortion cannot be murder, because murder is a legal term. Morality is, and always will be, subjective.
    1
  1549.  @woobeewooo  No its not. I'm speaking only from where this is filmed and where this discussion is held. Which is in the US.
    1
  1550.  @Foos3yOW  So supporting the equal rights of everyone makes 0 sense?
    1
  1551. Adoption is incredibly broken. I would have rather been aborted. Sex isn't just for procreation.
    1
  1552. Your rights stop where someone else's begin and vice versa. This isn't so much a moral issue as it is a legal issue.
    1
  1553. Funny, considering the Bible is very pro-choice.
    1
  1554.  IssyFishyy  Well well well. Here we have someone who wants to make excuses for why some verses are metaphorical, whereas others are literal, like every other intellectual dishonest religious person. Your God is not against abortion by your own book. And pretty sure I do get to decide what happens with my uterus. You wanna know why I'm an atheist? Because I read and stuided the Bible.
    1
  1555. Unless you live in a place where abortion is outlawed under law, no it isn't murder. How do you think that body develops? By feeding off the mother. Its attached to her and depends on her. It is her right.
    1