Comments by "Vic 2.0" (@Vic2point0) on "Why The Left Can't Be Scared Of Trans Rights" video.

"Trans rights" meaning special rights. No one else can coerce you into speaking differently and running your business, etc. in accordance with their incoherent worldview.
15
@NJames-dh6kz Sometimes they are, because some types of discrimination are justified. Such as the discrimination which says, "You're not me, therefore you shouldn't have control over the words I speak, how I run my business, who I employ, etc." We all have the right to discriminate in that way.
7
@darrenbradleytwin Well said! "Trans rights" are indeed special rights. No one else gets to coerce others into speaking differently and running their business, etc. in accordance with their incoherent worldview.
6
@NJames-dh6kz "it's not an incoherent worldview" Sure it is. It requires people to confuse the inclination/disinclination to adhere to gender roles and norms with gender itself, to insist that others are incorrect in using terms like "man" and "woman" while never being able to provide objective definitions for these terms yourself, and even sometimes equating disagreement with hate which is irresponsible in addition to being inaccurate. "according to modern scientific consensus." What exactly are you saying they've reached a consensus on. And how? "A person's gender identity is as much a fundamental part of who they are as sexual orientation or race." What is the objective standard for this "gender identity" then?
6
@DarkPuppy9 "no, the reasons you gave aren't reasons." How so? How is it not incoherent to confuse the inclination/disinclination to adhere to gender roles and norms with gender itself? How is it coherent to insist that others are incorrect in using terms like "man" or "woman" while being unable to give objective definitions for these terms yourself? How does it make sense to equate disagreement with hatred? "i honestly doubt you have spoken to anyone about it." Yeah, most of the trans people and advocates (like you) have tried that angle as well. In the meantime, I'm talking to you right now and you're refusing to even try and make transgenderism make sense. "also, you are literally justifying discrimination" Some types of discrimination are justified, yes. "and violence against a minority." Nothing I said suggests I'm okay with violence, no.
6
@NJames-dh6kz "but gender is about roles and norms." No. Gender roles and norms are based on your gender, aka biological sex. Gender and sex are one and the same, which is why the roles we're expected to play based solely on our biological sex are called "gender roles" to begin with. "Dysphoria is caused by living in a gender role that is discordant and is relieved by transitioning. Where is the incoherence in this?" It's the worldview itself that is incoherent. Just because you're more comfortable adhering to the gender roles and norms of a woman, for example, doesn't mean you're a woman. Indeed, the most intellectually honest definition you could possibly give for "woman", on your worldview, is the circular "someone who identifies as a woman", wholly apart from how they want to live.
6
@mk......... "The real question is why this is so upsetting for you," No, that's just a question you're trying to use to get us off-topic. But to answer, nothing I've said suggests I'm upset about any of it. Are you meaning to ask "Why do you care so much?" "If someone asks me to use the correct gender, I do so" How do you know? What makes it the correct gender? "cause I don't really give a sh!t." Now that, I'm inclined to believe. "If someone thinks he/she/it/whatever is a unicorn then I will call it a unicorn if it makes it feel better." Lol, well at least you're trying to be consistent... so far. What about a white person who identifies as black? Or a 10-year old who identifies as 30? "That's called being polite and kind." There are many ways to be polite and kind, without blindly calling someone something they're not... "And as long as it doesn't affect me personally," So you agree that people should be able to speak how they want, run their business how they want, etc.? "Maybe it's because you want everyone to be like you" Unfounded. Again, maybe you're meaning to simply ask me "Why do you care?" and just failing...
6
@MrMarket1987 "You literally do NOT have a right to speak however you want NOR run a business however you want." Of course we do. You don't own me nor my business, just like I don't own you or yours. It's very strange that you would insist on being able to force others to live according to your worldview here (especially with it being so incoherent). "If you really wanna talk morals, it's a good moral to mind your tongue if you ain't got something nice to say about an average person that ain't even being a bother." Oh the irony. Or, what is "being a bother"? Because all I've done is say something you disagree with so far, yet you've no moral qualms with criticizing me... If you can't even follow this principle of "mind your tongue", why do you expect me to do it?
6
@DarkPuppy9 "well for starters nobody is indoctronating kids to be trans" How could you possibly know that no one is doing this? And what does that have to do with anything I've said anyway? "They do have definitions," All of them subjective and/or circular so far, yes, which is the problem. "You see people don't explain it to you, because you don't want to listen and you engage in bad faith arguments." Also unfounded. And I've actually had lots of people make an effort to explain it to me, but that resulted in me finding out there really isn't any sound logic there. "No type of discrimination is justified" Nonsense. We discriminate all the time. There's tons of things you can do that I wouldn't be permitted to do. Things having to do with your money, your home/business, your spouse (if you have one), etc. The question is never, "Is discrimination okay?" but always "What is justified and what is unjustified discrimination?" and then of course "Why?" "I mean you're othering a minority," How do you mean "othering"? Just disagreeing? Because that's all I've done. "insulting them and making accusations." I haven't insulted them, no, and the only "accusation" I've made of trans people and trans advocates is that they subscribe to a worldview they cannot logically defend. "So I'm sorry if you doing the same thing that people who commit violence do that I mistook you for one." Except that's not what you did. People who commit violence are wrong because they commit violence, not because they might agree with any given statement. What next? Is "2+2=4" hate speech, since surely most violent criminals will agree with it?
6
@NJames-dh6kz Well that's certainly the story they're trying to tell, but as I said, we've known gender and sex to be one and the same for a long time now. It's why the roles we're expected to play based solely on our sex are called "gender roles". Transgenderism confuses gender with the roles and norms traditionally called "gender roles" and "gender norms". It's one of the many problems with this worldview, really.
6
@DarkPuppy9 "All definitions of norms are subjective." I didn't ask what defines a gender role or gender norm; I'm asking you if you can provide an objective definition for "man" or "woman". And if you're admitting now that you can't, this only supports my point that it's incoherent to then say, "You're misgendering/using that term incorrectly." "you aren't listening" I'm listening just fine. You haven't come up with an actual solution. You've spent most of your time trying to attack me personally, in fact, and go on weird tangents or rants about "the right". "No, discrimination has a legal definition and that is what you are doing." So your argument is that whatever's legal = right and whatever's illegal = wrong? "You have more than once here accused trans people of trying to indoctronate children." Well that's a blatant lie. You're either intentionally lying now or confusing me with someone else. "pretending you don't share an ideology with violent actors," Again, what is this ideology? Just agreeing that transgenderism is incoherent doesn't suggest that I agree with them on being violent (and naturally, I don't). You are again trying to equate someone disagreeing with you with someone hating you/trans people, but that doesn't logically follow.
6
@crackerscheese33 Same. And to top it all off, people are telling them that anyone who disagrees with this worldview hates them. It's sick, really.
6
@NJames-dh6kz We all have the moral right to speak how we want and run our business how we want. And that especially goes for transgenderism, which isn't even a race, sexuality, etc. but an incoherent worldview as I said earlier.
5
@DarkPuppy9 "ah so because you don't understand it, therefore it is incoherent." No, it is incoherent for the reasons I gave in my last comment. "but you don't want to understand," Unfounded. And it's precisely because I've spoken with countless trans people and advocates that I've come to the conclusion that it's a worldview devoid of logic. "you want a weapon you can use to hurt people" Also unfounded. And disturbing that you would equate someone disagreeing with you and someone trying to hurt you...
5
Agreed, except I remember that "gender" and "sex" are one and the same. They've confused gender roles and gender norms with gender itself, is all. And this is only the tip of the iceberg as to why transgenderism is incoherent.
5
@markzuckergecko621 Exactly. No one else gets to say "I identify as x therefore you must call me and treat me as x".
4
@MxArgent On the contrary, it's great! You grow from it. Learning to accept certain truths about the world frees you up to be truly happy, and you don't wind up trying (in vain) to defend a worldview that doesn't make logical sense (e.g., maintaining that others are using words like "man" and "woman" incorrectly while being unable to provide objective definitions for these terms yourself).
4
@MxArgent "Getting rolled"? I'm sorry, I'm not familiar. What exactly is wrong with adopting a coherent view of the world again? Are you a biological male who views himself as a woman? And if so, why?
4
@MxArgent Ah. Well again, there's nothing wrong with knowing you're a man who adheres to a lot of the gender roles/norms of a woman in your society. Better to acknowledge that than subscribe to a worldview you can't logically defend, presenting yourself as one gender when you're the other (and all the problems that might introduce), etc. Am I "getting rolled" by admitting to myself I'm not a billionaire? Because, like, that does bother me a bit, and would bother me a whole lot more if I tried to insist that I was one.
4
@itsabug4274 So the defense of calling biological males "women" is the same as the defense of calling little girls and dogs "women"? In other words, you're admitting they're not really women, some people have just chosen to call them that? From whence does our obligation to call these adult biological males "women" come, since we're not obligated to call dogs or little girls women?
4
@ambientjohnny Right you are. I'd also add that, if sex and gender were different things, we could respond to any accusation of "misgendering" by simply saying, "Well I was referring to their biological sex when I called that person a man, I wasn't referring to their gender". How could you mis-gender someone if you don't even refer to their gender in the first place, after all. Besides which, as I said earlier, it's actually impossible to misgender someone, on transgenderism, since they can never give an objective definition for their terms. It's logically impossible to be correct or incorrect while using terms that have no objective definition.
3
@darrenbradleytwin Very true. I know none of this was going on when I was a kid about 20 years ago. And it's very odd that they want to insist that gender and sex are different things, when we have the concept of "gender roles" which obviously refer to the roles placed on people based on their biological sex.
3
@DarkPuppy9 You say that, but "science" has yet to come up with an objective definition for gender which doesn't confuse it with the inclination/disinclination to adhere to certain gender roles and norms. In short, on your worldview, there is no objective definition of terms like "man" or "woman", making science wholly irrelevant. Gender and sex are one and the same and we've known it for a long time now. It's the very reason the roles we're expected to play based solely on our biological sex are called "gender roles" to begin with.
2
@DarkPuppy9 "gender is a socal construct" Not at all. Again, you're thinking of gender roles and gender norms - the socially constructed expectations people place on us based on our gender, aka biological sex. But I'll reiterate that, if we say gender doesn't have an objective definition or standard, then it's impossible for anyone to be correct or incorrect while referring to it. And if "science" disagrees with any of this, then "the science" will need to provide some working definitions. Otherwise, what is being assessed in this "science", and how?
2
@DarkPuppy9 "no, gender is a social construct" So you keep asserting, but I've given you arguments to the contrary. You've ignored those arguments only to reassert what's clearly false. You're also ignoring the rest of the points I've made, such as the fact that without objective definitions for terms like "man" and "woman", your worldview doesn't even allow for misgendering to even be possible. Now, can you give an objective definition for "gender" which does not confuse it with socially constructed gender roles and norms, or not?
2
@DarkPuppy9 "no, you haven't given arguments to the contrary" Sure I have. For example, I pointed out that we are expected to adhere to certain roles purely based on our biological sex, and those roles are called "gender roles", indicating that sex and gender are indeed synonymous. People just look at me, determine I'm biologically male, and expect me to adhere to the gender roles and gender norms of a man. I've also pointed out that since you cannot give an objective definition for terms like "man" or "woman", on your worldview, this makes it impossible to misgender anyone. After all, if there is no objective standard to meet to qualify as either a man or woman, then no one can be correct or incorrect while using these terms. Ironically, it's only those of us who reject transgenderism that can accuse others of misgendering them in a coherent way.
2
@DarkPuppy9 "Nope, gender roles are part of gender" Ah so now you're finally hinting at a definition. So are you saying a person needs to adhere to x gender roles to be x gender? "it is... utterly subjective" Well okay then, since it is subjective (by your own admission), no one can be correct or incorrect when they say "This person is a man" or "That person is a woman". So you agree that it's impossible to misgender someone, on transgenderism. "you've claimed nobody can define man or woman" Not nobody, just people who subscribe to your worldview. And you agreed just now by saying it's subjective. "you hate a group of people," Unfounded. And it's irresponsible of you (in addition to being a logical fallacy) to equate disagreement with hatred.
2
@professorgaming7168 Yeah, as I said, our rights can be (and have been) infringed on by authoritarian forces, doesn't change anything in terms of morality. Are you arguing that legal=right and illegal=wrong? And in case you were only responding to the original comment, I wouldn't consider a person's race their worldview...
2
@professorgaming7168 "Your original comment said "can", not "should"." Right, but again, race is not an incoherent worldview, whereas transgenderism is. But sure, I do think everyone should be free (yes, even straight white males) which means I acknowledge the government has no right to force anyone to speak differently or run their business differently.
2
@professorgaming7168 Ah, so your argument is whatever's legal = what's right. I wasn't sure before. Well what's to be said? We fundamentally disagree that whatever the government (including the Supreme Court) says = the right thing to do.
2
@professorgaming7168 Nonsense. How do they have the right? Because someone else in power once wrote it down? How is that any better than "what's legal = what's right"? You're not thinking about this yet.
2
Do you believe the U.S. Constitution gave us our rights, or is merely a collection of acknowledgements of rights we already had?
2
Just wait until white people start "identifying as" black. Might sound ridiculous but so did this shit about ten years ago.
2
@MxArgent Get where, exactly? To the point of being able to provide an objective definition for "man" and "woman" which will support transgenderism? Not going to happen, because the alleged obligation is for us to call some people "women" solely because they identify as such. All talk of "the science" is irrelevant, truth be told. They try to say "But trans women often have 'female brains' according to brain studies!" But so what? A biological male with a so-called "male brain" will still be called a woman by those who subscribe to this worldview, so long as they identify as one.
2
@MxArgent I don't think that science will ever be able to actually transform your DNA. But again, even if that does become possible in the future, there will still be adult biological males not willing/able to go through that process who nonetheless want to be called women. It would be far more coherent and rational (even if it is difficult) to come to terms with what you "got stuck with" same as everyone else. I'm not thrilled that I was born poor and have had to struggle just to make it to upper middle class. I'd rather be a billionaire. For that matter, I'm not too thrilled about being human. Would rather be a bird, a bald eagle maybe. But I have to accept that I'm not these things or I'll literally go insane over time.
2
@mekonta Of course!
2
Exactly. The most intellectually honest definition they can ever give is just "someone who identifies as a woman". In addition to this being circular nonsense, it shows just how irrelevant the science really is. It doesn't matter who does/doesn't have a so-called "female brain", for example. If they identify as a woman, these people feel obligated to go along with it.
1