Comments by "Vic 2.0" (@Vic2point0) on "Joe Rogan on Father Who is Losing Custody of Transgender Son" video.
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@TomCL-vb6xc It would be interesting to see how the suicide rates change (or if they do, significantly) depending on where these people live. After all, if your theory is correct, we should be seeing far less suicidality among trans people living in, say, L.A. than most other parts of the country.
But at the end of the day, this is the world we're living in and raising our children in. If the suicide rate was "only" twice as high in trans people, and if I felt confident that it was mostly because people were bullying them, etc., I'd still be discouraging my son from thinking that because he feels a certain way that dispenses with the sex he is.
And I completely reject the idea of "gender", if we're defining it simply as "what you feel/identify as". For starters, how does anyone at all even know what it means to feel like a man vs. a woman? And secondly, this is obviously a slippery slope worth mocking. If we can't appeal to science or observation on the subject of gender, on what basis can we appeal to them on any other subject (e.g., my race, age, or financial status)?
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@TomCL-vb6xc "There is no place on Earth where transgender people aren’t mocked pretty much on a daily basis,"
Maybe, maybe not. But it's highly probable that they're more accepted in L.A. than in some small, highly conservative town in Texas. I think that in order to confirm your theory, we need data on whatever differences there may be between the suicidality of trans people living in one place vs the other.
"I completely disagree with people making decisions like this for their children, especially children younger than at least their mid-teens."
I'm surprised you would word it that way. Aren't you supposed to agree with them that it's the child who made the decision? And that the parent is just "doing what's best" for the child by going along with it? See, that's the problem. If it's true that we cannot go by science or observation (we have to go by what the person tells us), then we've no way to justify a parent waiting or disapproving of these procedures being done early. The moment a child affirms that they are indeed the opposite gender, they have to be permitted to go through this process if we're to be consistent. Even when the "doctors" choose to wait a year or two, they're contradicting the fundamental premise of this whole idea.
"However I also disagree with the notion that regardless of whether you actually disagree with your child’s transgenderism or you simply fear for their wellbeing in a world that seems to absolutely despise it, you would still discourage them for expressing it."
You can disagree all you like, my #1 priority is going to be to protect my kid.
"Someone has to. If every gay person decided to never express their homosexuality or worse kill themselves outright, we’d still be living in a world where homosexuals were frowned upon - we still are to some extent."
Difference being that the homosexual man knows he is a man and knows he is sexually attracted to other men. A trans person thinks they are the opposite "gender" (even though this entire concept is incoherent) and often wants to physically alter their entire body in an attempt to feel better, which still leaves them 18 times more likely to commit suicide than the general population.
"You also misunderstood what I wrote, gender isn’t as simple as how we feel, it is to do with how we are percieved by other people."
Which would mean that the biological man who says he's a woman is the gender of a biological man, since most other people are going to perceive him as a man. It sounds more like an argument for gender and sex being the same thing, than for them being different.
"How others percieve us pretty much decides how they treat us, which of course affects how we feel."
I agree wholeheartedly. Which is why I'll be treating my son like a boy, because I want him to understand that and feel like he's a boy.
Finally, I gave arguments as to why the "scientific consensus" should be rejected. No one has provided me with any science whatsoever that issues in the conclusions they're fighting for. Indeed, this sounds more in the realm of philosophy than science, because we need to make our conclusions explicit and discuss them. I'll repeat to you the questions you dodged:
For starters, how does anyone at all even know what it means to feel like a man vs. a woman? All any of us know is what it feels like to be us, and we've no basis for comparison with other people. And secondly, this is a slippery slope we have to call out. If we can't appeal to science or observation on the subject of gender, on what basis can we appeal to them on any other subject (e.g., my race, age, or financial status)?
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@TomCL-vb6xc "Of cours we know what it feels like to be percieved as-"
Not what I said. I said we don't know what it feels like to be a man vs. what it feels like to be a woman. Indeed, as far as any of us know, they feel exactly the same (aside from specific biological events that women- real women, I mean- have to go through once a month and then during pregnancy). So it seems that when a man says "I identify as a woman", "I've always known I was a woman born in the wrong body", etc. there is no explanation of that forthcoming. I'm inclined to think it really just means that such a person likes things traditionally thought to fit "women's roles", but that of course doesn't mean he is a woman (or even that his "gender" is female), it just means he likes different things from most men.
"I don’t even understand what you are trying to get at in the other question."
Seems pretty straightforward, to me. What's to stop me from identifying as (and getting everyone around me to treat me as) a black man aged 74 with 10 million dollars in my bank account, when I'm in fact a white man in his 30s with... well, let's say a bit less than that? ;)
"You also misunderstood what I said in regard to what gender is actually defined as."
I took your words literally, is all I did.
"It is what peope percieve, and henceforth expect from us."
Right, so that's our gender, according to you. So my gender is what people perceive and expect from me. That means if I personally "identify as" a woman, it doesn't matter. My biological sex and gender is male, because that's what both science and society have determined.
"For instance, people expect from me to dress a certain way, move a certain way, to have certain opinions etc etc because they percieve me to have the gender of a man."
You're describing gender roles, not gender. Your gender is male, and the expectations people have of you reflect the gender roles of that society.
"There are people who look a lot like me and share the same biological sex but feel very uncomfortable in carrying out what people expect from them."
Absolutely, and I don't think they should have to do anything they don't want to do. Doesn't mean they are something else; it means they want something else.
"Rather, they might feel much happier in doing things that we would expect of a “woman” ( in the sense of gender ) such as dressing a certain way, move a certain way and have certain opinions etc etc. Hence why they feel like they would be much happier if people expected them to be the way that way and go through various processes to ensure that. Does that not make sense?"
I see the train of thought, but it's not a good one. There's disagreeing with gender roles and then there's misleading people as to what gender you are. If you are making a conscious effort to actually appear to be a gender you aren't, that's where you cross the line. And I'm not even necessarily talking about crossdressers (though they have to understand that anything that departs so radically from the norm is going to be considered strange, and that goes far beyond gender roles). When you look at a crossdresser, you still know he's a man. But with trans people, a lot of the times you can't tell, and that equals deception.
"I also don’t agree that children should make decisions that involve physical and medical procedures, as after all I understand that “boys” wanting to do “girly” things is not outright evidence that they are transgender."
My point was that, a lot of trans advocates would say you shouldn't even be asking for "evidence". You should just take the boy's word for it that he is a girl; and if not, how are you making the distinction?
I mean, of course I agree with you, but I'm not seeing the consistency.
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treydarling Okay, so as I suspected, the study was on adolescents, not newborn babies, or toddlers, or even young children. The problem with trying to draw the conclusion you want from this is that behaviors, thoughts, feelings, the way you're treated over time can actually change your brain size and shape. So it isn't established that trans "girls" had brains resembling that of the gender they identify as first, it could easily have been the other way around.
And again, all it would mean anyway is that they have a brain abnormality causing them to think they're a gender they aren't.
Also, I'd really like to stop avoiding my question: Are you suggesting that trans people who don't have brains that resemble those of the gender they identify with aren't really trans?
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I'm sorry, but transgenderism is still incoherent and without any basis in reality at all.
@Robert Platt "Would it help if I pointed out that medical scans show our brains are actually wired more like the sex we identify?"
Not at all. Even assuming you mean that your brains are the size/shape of the opposite gender at birth (which you might not, Idk), it wouldn't mean that therefore you're that gender. People with conditions we'd both agree are mental disorders are sometimes diagnosed in that exact way. So there being a biological explanation for why you think you're a different gender, doesn't equal a biological confirmation that you are.
"That is, my 23 chromosome is male but my brain is wired like a normal female."
Which brings back the question I asked you in another comment section, which I don't recall you answering: What about a trans "woman" who doesn't have a similar brain to biological women, but identifies as a woman anyway? Would you tell them they're not a woman, or does the size and shape of the brain suddenly (and conveniently) not matter then?
"I literally think more like a woman than a man. I understand women better than I understand men."
Which, again, only means that you have a different personality than most men. So do lots of men, who still recognize that they're men despite that. But would you tell them they're not men either? Because they think "like a woman", which again, depending on what specifically you mean by that sounds sexist to begin with.
"Everything about my psyche says I should be a woman but my body is decidedly male."
Feelings about what "should" or "shouldn't" be are irrelevant, if only because they're so subjective. But it's just like I asked you before in that other comment section, how do you even know what it feels like to be a man vs. what it feels like to be a woman? If you're a woman and have always been a woman, you quite literally cannot know the difference (if there is a difference) between the two.
"None of this was my decision. It wasn't induced by trauma, abuse or teaching. It's quite the opposite. I was taught to be a boy. I even had special classes to help teach me.
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Not that this matters a great deal (Again, some mental disorders "just happen" without any trauma, abuse, or teaching), but you really can't say for sure that nothing in the forgotten formative years of your childhood brought this on. It's not like people have memories of their birth and the first few years afterward.
"That was around 1975. There was no such thing as "transgender" back then just gay and transvestite. And I learned quickly both groups were hated outcasts. Why would I want to be like them?
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I think this is a key paragraph. Not wanting to be part of these groups because they were hated doesn't address objective truth. Not saying you are just gay or transvestite, but it sounds like you haven't ruled those out properly.
"The divide between brain and body creates a strain that builds and builds until it gets so bad it destroys some part of me. You'll never see the scars because they're all on the inside. Yet they exist and they show a LOT of damage has been done.
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I don't think anyone's denying that having such a condition would be painful and extremely difficult. But we do disagree that the best way to treat these sorts of conditions is by going along with it.
"In short, we CAN successfully change our body SHAPE and that's all we need to feel and be just as normal as everyone else.
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I'm sure it would help you feel better, to force your body into the shape you think it should be. How could it not? But that doesn't mean you've changed what you are.
If you don't mind, I decided to tack on part of another conversation we were having, where I had asked you why a person can't also identify as another age, race or financial status. I never got a response from you, but I wanted to press the question to highlight part of why me and others find transgenderism so incoherent logically:
"Lastly, identifying as something measurable (age, race, social status) is provably true or false."
Exactly. And being a man or woman is measurable through biology. If you have zero biological evidence that you're a woman, yet you want people to treat you as one, there's nothing stopping me from applying this principle to pressure others into treating me as a different age, race, and financial status.
"In any case the most obvious difference between these identifications and gender dysphoria is that they don't cause distress."
To your knowledge. But I'm quite sure that if you give it time, people will be popping up with their stories of how "always knowing they were black" (when they're white) and having to be misraced, etc. caused them great pain and suffering. Because again, what's stopping them? Even if you say they're just faking it all, how can you prove that? You can't.
Besides which, is the level of suffering a person's going through with a "mislabeling" really a fundamental difference regarding what's true? The question, how do we determine what's correct? How can we look at someone else and tell them they're not what they feel they are, if we can't do it regarding gender?
"If someone does suffer then it's up to the individual to do something about it - just as it is with gender dysphoria."
Yeah, like coming to grips with the objective truth, and then asking why they identify as something they're not.
Just as I had suggested you ask yourself the following:
Why do you want to be a mother? What do mothers do? How do they contribute to their children/society? Isn't it entirely possible to fulfill those needs (which are indeed important) as a man?
"And if there's sufficient determination, a poor person may earn their way to a higher social class,"
No no no. Don't be a bigot. These people are already rich, and you have to treat them as such. And that will have all sorts of interesting applications when they happen to stroll into the nearest bank, wouldn't you say?
"an old person may act and think as a younger person."
Right, like a 40-year old man who identifies as a 15-year old boy can date your 15-year old daughter. What could you say against that? You don't want to be a hateful bigot, keep that in mind.
"Society accepts and encourages these people. Ever see an old man on a skateboard doing tricks and having a blast?"
That's just it, though. He can do these things because he's able to, not because he identifies as someone younger. Similarly, you can fulfill the same needs as any mother, without being a woman. And that would be OK but competing in sports against biological women is not. Just as the old man can ride skateboards in the park, but cannot date a teenage girl.
"But few will correct them if they say they feel young or rich or whatever. Yet many will correct me for saying I feel like a woman."
Partly because (so far), there isn't a movement of old people claiming they are in fact young or poor people claiming they are in fact rich. So the guard can be lowered there. Also partly because "feeling young" refers to differences in young people that most wouldn't dispute. It's almost inevitable that a young person (who is healthy) will have more energy. It is not almost inevitable that a woman will think, feel, and behave the way you are.
"So if I require a female-shaped body to function (regardless of my DNA), is it correct to deny it?"
You don't require that at all. The issue is in the mind, so that's where you should fix it.
"Living authentic is more important."
Indeed. So if you are a man who thinks, feels, and behaves in a very different way from most men, that's what you say. That's what you know about yourself, and so that's what you should tell others.
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treydarling "no shit experiences alter brain structure why must you strawman?"
So if you didn't present that link to suggest that they were born with a brain representing the opposite gender (and that's why they identify as that opposite gender, rather than the other way around), then what is the point of the link?
"if therapy alone could fix the problem it would have by now."
Therapy is only as good as both participants' efforts. That, and societal encouragements vs. enablings.
"its far more practical to change the body."
Given how much time, energy and resources go into it, and given that you still end up with an extremely high suicide rate, I disagree. And that's not even to mention the risk of regretting it. You don't believe that the changes are actually temporary, do you?
"huh, this is the first time talking to you outside the original post which had no question how the fuck can i ignore you?"
Well I responded to your first comment in this thread about three days ago, and you never replied to it. But that's fine, let's see if you can answer now.
"i don't see a point in making a distinction between the infinite points of the spectrum of human brain structure we could designate as a gender, im a gender abolitionist."
Not sure what that means. But again, if you would recognize, say, a biological male who identifies as female but doesn't have a brain resembling a female's brain, as a real trans woman, then what's the point in talking about how "the trans brain structure is that of the perceived gender". It apparently has nothing to do with verifying their identity, if they can be "a woman" without it.
"also there is a lot we don't know about the brain yet so there may be other causes we yet know of."
Yes, like a mental condition. There are plenty of examples of mental disorders and the like that feature an abnormal sized/shaped brain.
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@Robert Platt "Gender is a way for us to categorize ourselves and others by action and reaction. This is driven by psychology which is derived from both biology and experience - thus the near infinite diversity."
Also known as "personality". You don't have to call it a different gender every time someone differs in how they think, feel, and behave.
"I know I have a woman's mind because no matter how anyone has taught, explained, hypnotically suggested or commanded, I cannot think differently than I do."
So certain things about your personality cannot be changed. Doesn't mean you have "a woman's mind". Again, how do you even know what having a woman's mind vs. having a man's mind feels like? For all you know, they feel the exact same, and the only way men and women ever feel differently is through biological causes.
"My thoughts and emotions cause distress because they don't fit this body"
Again, gender roles. You are not obligated to think or feel particular ways just because you're a man. Tons of men out there "think like a woman" or "have emotions like a woman" (and I put these in quotations because I still find the idea sexist to begin with) and yet "identify" as men because they understand that the distinction is the realm of biology.
"A few examples include: I have always wanted soft, smooth curves and to be a mother."
So you are unhappy with your gender. That's unfortunate. But it doesn't change or affect reality, and I think the sooner you acknowledge that the better your changes of accepting that gender so you can move on to asking the better questions:
Why do you want to be a mother? What do mothers do? How do they contribute to their children/society? Isn't it entirely possible to fulfill those needs (which are indeed important) as a man?
"I'm highly empathetic toward others. I don't understand the intrigue with sports or porn."
Same here x3. But I know that doesn't make me any less of a man. Also, plenty of women (who "identify" as women) lack empathy, love sports and watch pornography.
"I am isolated from most men because I am so different psychologically and isolated from most women because I am so different biologically. Etc."
Story of my life! And I'm not just saying that. My friend, I don't even know how to change a tire. I know pretty much none of the things men are expected to know, and the only stereotypically "guy thing" I'm into are video games.
"To make my thoughts and emotions fit my body requires barbaric "brainwashing" techniques that are only marginally successful and produce a multitude of equally nasty side effects like PTSD.
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You need to let go of this notion of thoughts and feelings "fitting bodies", and so does anyone who gives you shit over not being "enough of a man". Your body is male, and I presume that you're an adult, therefore you're a man. Your thoughts and feelings only make you you. The odds were that biology would greatly influence your personality, but you beat those odds and broke free from gender norms. If anything, this is something to celebrate, not run or hide from.
"Lastly, identifying as something measurable (age, race, social status) is provably true or false."
Exactly. And being a man or woman is measurable through biology. If you have zero biological evidence that you're a woman, yet you want people to treat you as one, there's nothing stopping me from applying this principle to pressure others into treating me as a different age, race, and financial status.
"In any case the most obvious difference between these identifications and gender dysphoria is that they don't cause distress."
To your knowledge. But I'm quite sure that if you give it time, people will be popping up with their stories of how "always knowing they were black" (when they're white) and having to be misraced, etc. caused them great pain and suffering. Because again, what's stopping them? Even if you say they're just faking it all, how can you prove that? You can't.
"If someone does suffer then it's up to the individual to do something about it - just as it is with gender dysphoria."
Yeah, like coming to grips with the objective truth, and then asking why they identify as something they're not.
"And if there's sufficient determination, a poor person may earn their way to a higher social class,"
No no no. Don't be a bigot. These people are already rich, and you have to treat them as such. And that will have all sorts of interesting applications when they happen to stroll into the nearest bank, wouldn't you say?
"an old person may act and think as a younger person."
Right, like a 40-year old man who identifies as a 15-year old boy can date your daughter. What could you say against that? You don't want to be a hateful bigot, keep that in mind.
"Society accepts and encourages these people. Ever see an old man on a skateboard doing tricks and having a blast?"
That's just it, though. He can do these things because he's able to, not because he identifies as someone younger. Similarly, you can fulfill the same needs as any mother, without being a woman. And that would be OK but competing in sports against biological women is not. Just as the old man can ride skateboards in the park, but cannot date a teenage girl.
"But few will correct them if they say they feel young or rich or whatever. Yet many will correct me for saying I feel like a woman."
Partly because (so far), there isn't a movement of old people claiming they are in fact young or poor people claiming they are in fact rich. So the guard can be lowered there. Also partly because "feeling young" refers to differences in young people that most wouldn't dispute. It's almost inevitable that a young person (who is healthy) will have more energy. It is not almost inevitable that a woman will think, feel, and behave the way you are.
"So if I require a female-shaped body to function (regardless of my DNA), is it correct to deny it?"
You don't require that at all. The issue is in the mind, so that's where you should fix it.
"Living authentic is more important."
Indeed. So if you are a man who thinks, feels, and behaves in a very different way from most men, that's what you say. That's what you know about yourself, and so that's what you should tell others.
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