Comments by "" (@TheHuxleyAgnostic) on "Caller Makes a Point About AOC Jimmy Dore Fiasco" video.
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@turanamo Yeah, I don't get why people think he actually cares if they get healthcare. In 2016, he did what he could, from promoting Trump as better than Clinton to promoting Stein as having a chance of winning, to get Trump elected, not caring if that would lead to the ACA being repealed and millions losing their healthcare. During the 2020 primaries, he promoted Tulsi ("Medicare choice") over Bernie (M4A). During the 2020 general, he basically ran an attack campaign against Biden, Trump's only viable opponent, again not caring if Trump won and that could lead to the ACA being repealed, not caring if Trump killed thousands more Americans, not caring to get millions more covered by lowering the Medicare age. Now, he's slandering the most progressive politicians in congress, especially the one who just used her platform and PAC to help get more pro-M4A progressives elected to congress, the very thing that actually moves you closer to passing M4A. And, he wants to start yet another third party, that likely won't even get a single seat for decades, let alone M4A, and could simply split the vote enough to let Republicans rule and destroy people's healthcare more.
If anyone is a "fake", "shill", and "wimp", it's the guy who basically campaigns for Republicans and stabs progressives making small gains in the back.
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NEAR TERM EXTINCTION - HUMAN There is already a pretty clear list of who hasn't signed on for M4A. AOC just used her platform and PAC to help get more pro-M4A progressives elected to congress, going against DCCC backed corporate Dems, exactly what you'll still have to do after a failed vote. Jimmy rewards doing the exact thing that's needed to actually get M4A passed, with calling her a "fake", "shill", and "wimp". To actually pass it, you need to replace about 100 people in the house and senate. If Jimmy has 100 new candidates in his back pocket, he should have run them in the election that just happened. I'm sure AOC would have done what she could to help them get elected too.
Yeah, paralyzing the house, if you don't get your way, isn't really politics 101. There hasn't been multiple speaker votes in about a hundred years. Resorting to that, during a pandemic, could backfire and be used to make you look bad.
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@edwardz.rosenthal9946 Yeah. I get the frustration, feeling like it's slow going. But, the progressive caucus is only about 10 more seats away from becoming the majority of house Democrats. Some of their most vocal members could protest vote Pelosi, now, but even as a whole, they don't actually have the majority to swap her out in caucus. Pelosi has said this is her last ride as speaker. So, the next caucus speaker election will be up for grabs anyway, and the progressive caucus could have the majority by then, if everyone sticks by them, and elects some more. Letting someone like Tim Ryan get his foot in the door, now, and take over the job could make things tougher. He's even more anti-progressive than Pelosi. Paralyzing the house now could be propagandized against progressives. Pushing corporate Dems to have to work with Republicans to dodge paralyzing the house could make things worse for progressives. There are risks to forcethevote.
If they get the majority of the Dems, next election, and Dems get the majority of the house again, they could pick a speaker who could put the M4A bill up for a vote as many times as Republicans put the ACA repeal bill up for a vote. They could put progressive policies up repeatedly. They're close.
Promote the forcethevote idea. If they go for it, they go for it. If they don't want to risk it, they won't. Still stick together, do all that stuff you can still do anyway, and you can start now ... pressure any Rep not signing on, have and promote M4A rallies, find good candidates to take out anyone who won't sign on, spread proper information, etc. Don't set fire to the ship, jump overboard, let it sink, and start from scratch, over a secondary tactics disagreement. Jimmy isn't a good figurehead for a movement.
The Libertarian party will soon be turning 50 years old without ever having won a seat in congress. The Green Party is 20 years old without ever having won a seat in congress. That's the reality of third parties in the US, atm. Need to get people on the inside to change how elections work, get big donors out of politics, etc., before third parties can really be viable, I think. It may seem like a revolutionary idea in the moment, and you have grand ideas of everyone jumping onboard and it being a short trip to your destination, but it's actually a long road to nowhere, as the system works now. Sticking with progressives is the shorter route, even if it seems slow.
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@Evirthewarrior There's already a record of people who haven't signed on to M4A. You'll get an updated record, when the bill is reintroduced next session. AOC just helped replace some corporate Dems who wouldn't. You still need to replace almost 100 politicians in the house and a couple dozen in the senate. If Jimmy has 100 new pro-M4A progressives in his back pocket, why didn't he pull them out and run them in the election that just happened? If you can't even replace all the ones already openly opposed to M4A, trying to get a few extra names of fakers isn't going to help you much. A vote guaranteed to fail won't even necessarily expose fakers. They could vote for it without worrying it will pass.
What do you mean it would already have passed the house? You're delusional. It needs almost 100 more people to sign on for it, in the house alone.
No. It's not "literally impossible" for the Republican candidate to win. It's majority of votes cast. For every 2 abstentions, absents, or unfilled seats, the threshold needed to win drops by 1. Jimmy arguing that corporate Dems would rather work with Republicans than progressives is actually an argument against his plan, not for it, since it increases the risk they'd work together against progressives.
And if they just let you keep paralyzing the government, during a pandemic, that could also look bad on progressives. No votes on a minimum wage increase. No votes on lowering the social security age. No votes on more covid relief. Etc. They'd definitely propagandize it all, to make progressives look as bad as possible.
Jimmy thought the moon would fall into Lake Michigan before Trump could fill multiple scotus seats. He's not good at risk assessment. Negatives, that he makes out to be impossible, actually aren't impossible.
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@Evirthewarrior You know this is all a secondary tactic disagreement, right? Getting M4A is the goal. The primary tactic of converting or replacing enough people in congress to actually pass M4A is the primary tactic, because that's the only possible way to pass a bill in congress. Whether the secondary tactic of forcing the vote would provide ammo for the primary tactic ànd speed up the process, whether it could backfire in some way and hinder the process, whether people would forget it in 2 years and it be neither good or bad, or whatever, that's the actual debate. As long as progressives are working at the primary tactic, they aren't doing nothing. It may not be fast enough for your liking, but Jimmy and posse slandering and trashing progressive politicians, over a secondary tactic disagreement, could damage even those small gains, and starting a third party likely won't even get you a seat in congress for decades, let alone M4A, and could split progressive votes enough to let Republicans and corporate Dems rule for decades. He's both impatient and willing to take the longest path to victory. He doesn't really make much sense.
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@Evirthewarrior If someone just used her platform and PAC to do the very thing you need to do (add more pro-M4A votes in congress) to ever be able to pass a M4A bill, if she just fought against the very corporate Dems you want out (opposing DCCC backed corporate Dems), if she just got punished by them for doing that (threw punches and took a punch) then some cowardly armchair general calling her a "fake", "shill", and "wimp", is pure slander, and a stab in the back.
He doesn't actually give a fuck if anyone gets healthcare. He has his, and is willing to start from scratch, take a century for a third party to get a single seat, and let Republicans and corporate Dems rule, as he works on splitting the progressive vote. If anyone is a "fake" and a "shill" it's the one trashing progressives and the gains made.
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@Evirthewarrior Fascists are fascists before they get complete power. 28% of Republicans, and many Republican lawmakers, don't want Trump to concede under any circumstances. Whether it happened, or not, they've embraced overt fasism and the end of the democratic process. Many are leaving their already batshit crazy FOX News for even more extreme absolutely nonsensical propaganda stations. He packed in tons of conservative judges, including multiple scotus seats (When Jimmy did his risk assessment, he even agreed that would be horrible, he just thought it was as likely to happen as the moon falling into Lake Michigan. Is it horrible or not?). You lot are insane, yourself, if you think that's samesies as neolibs. And even more insane, if you think progressives are samesies as neolibs.
We might not be talking about M4A, if it weren't for Bernie. Him recognizing that Republicans are even worse, and opposing them, just means he's sane. And, AOC helping to add extra Pro-M4A votes to congress is exactly what you need to happen to ever pass it.
Many of the anti-mask protesters, etc., have been Trump cultists, encouraged by their cult leader. Why would it have been worse, without their cult leader? Why would it have been worse with a pandemic response team prepared to act? The US has had a pathetically low testing rate, one of the most important things to actually contain the virus. Why would it have been worse? N Korea's president gathered corporate leaders and told them the country would need a ton of masks, and it got done. That's leadership. It didn't take forcing them. It had nothing to do with whether federal, state, or local politicians had what powers. Trump's response has been complete incompetence. He also repeatedly threatened state and local politicians going against his bullshit, with defunding. He encouraged his cult to ignore them. Even if they have more control over some things, he fought against them.
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@Evirthewarrior Fuck you're stupid. Tests per day is also a number totally disconnected from your covid numbers.
If country A sits back and only tests people with symptoms who come in to get tested, then they won't catch the completely asymptomatic carriers, or those who will develop symptoms but haven't developed them yet. Those people will infect more and more people. They won't get ahead of the virus and it will keep spreading. More and more people will then get covid and more and more symptomatic people will come in for tests. The country will end up doing a ton of tests, but still never get ahead of the virus.
If country B actively tests 100 people that possibly came into contact with someone who had a positive result, they'll catch completely asymptomatic carriers and people who haven't developed symptoms yet, and can have them quarantine themselves, getting ahead of the virus and keeping more infected people away from others. This country will get ahead of the virus, flatten its curve, and might not have to do as many total tests, tests per million, or tests per day, exactly because their better testing rate helped reduce the numbers of infected.
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@edwardz.rosenthal9946 Stop pretending like Dore's "plan" actually gets you M4A now, or that he actually gives a crap if anyone gets healthcare. A failed vote won't get it now. It'll leave you still having to do exactly what AOC just did ... help get more pro-M4A progressives elected to congress going against DCCC backed corporate Dems. You need to replace almost 100 people in the house alone.
Dore acts all impatient, but just as progressives are making gains, he doesn't mind trashing and slandering them, undermine their credibility as much as he can, and start from scratch with yet another third party, and maybe not even get a single house seat in 50 years (the Libertarian party will turn 50 in a couple years), let alone get M4A. He wouldn't mind possibly splitting progressive votes, reducing progressive gains in the Dem party, and letting Republicans and corporate Dems rule for decades. He just got done promoting Tulsi's "Medicare choice" (a public option) over Bernie's M4A. But then he spent the general basically campaigning against the guy offering a public option and a reduction in the Medicare age. Pretending like he desperately wants anyone to get healthcare anytime soon, is blatantly obvious nonsense. He's all over the place, and seems content with trashing everything, even small gains, or small improvements, and completely changing course every other year, effectively going nowhere.
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@edwardz.rosenthal9946 Yes, the ACA provided millions more with healthcare, and covered people with preexisting conditions. Not awesome, but a step forward. Republicans went nuts trying to repeal it. It even took an Obama veto of their repeal attempts in the end. So, a person who actually cared about those millions having healthcare wouldn't promote a Republican president, who'd sign a repeal, as a better option for progressives than Clinton in 2016. Dore did what he could to help Trump get elected, even promoting Stein as having a shot. He didn't give a crap if that meant millions could lose their healthcare.
During the 2020 primaries, he promoted Tulsi and her "Medicare choice" (public option) over Bernie and his M4A. He didn't give a crap if her plan wasn't as good as his. He didn't give a crap if he peeled off any progressive votes from the more viable candidate, and help Biden win. He didn't give a crap.
During the general election, he basically ran an attack ad campaign against Trump's only viable opponent, Biden. Again he didn't care that Trump and Republicans were trying to gut the ACA, he didn't care about getting another small step forward with lowering the Medicare age and a public option (which he had just fucking supported with Tulsi). He didn't give a fuck.
The only way to possibly ever pass M4A is to get more yes votes in congress, which AOC just helped do. She used her platform and PAC to fight DCCC backed corporate Dems. She threw punches. They just punched her back, by not giving her the committee seat she wanted. Dore, the armchair general slandering her over a fucking tactics disagreement, is a coward stabbing her in the back. Jimmy doesn't have the balls to get out of his garage and run himself. Go ahead, try to get the forcethevote movement going, but if it doesn't happen, all the slander will have done is convince some idiots that they should abandon congressional progressives. Again, that's not giving two shits about the small gains of getting more yes votes in congress, not giving a shit about moving forward. Plus, he's stupid, and doesn't even make a proper risk assessment, which could backfire and hurt progressives and M4A.
On top of all that, he's ready to go with yet another third party, that likely won't even win a single seat in 50 years (the Libertarian party is turning 50 in a couple years), let alone get you M4A. He doesn't give a crap if that splits progressive voting, loses the gains made within the Democrat party, fully hands the party back to corporate Dems, and lets Republicans rule for decades, possibly destroying even the public healthcare insurance there is. He doesn't give a flying fuck.
He's a fucking child, whose gets so impatient with small steps forward that he abandons them and changes directions, if that leads to small steps forward he again abandons them and changes directions, and so on ... in the end, Jimmy Dore will lead you nowhere. Maybe you could try to argue that he cares so much that he can't act rationally, but his actions indicate he doesn't give a fuck if anyone ever reaches destination healthcare.
Colossus? If spreading ideas across social media counts as fighting, then AOC completely destroys Jimmy in the only arena he fights in. Total annihilation. Her platform is worth about 40 of his. A single M4A tweet of hers is worth about 70 of his. It's nonsensical the number of Dore knobs who consider Jimmy to be "fighting" but consider her using her much larger platform to spread progressive ideas, including M4A, to be doing nothing.
We probably wouldn't be having this discussion without Bernie making M4A a mainstream talking point. Again, if spreading an idea counts as fighting, then Bernie is a champ. Disagree with his pragmatic lesser of two evils approach, but to also call him a "fake", "shill", "wimp", is just more bullshit slander. Dore doesn't actually give a fuck about getting anywhere.
Remember when the Tea Party ate their own Tea Party friendly politicians, and fractionalize the Tea Party itself? Me either.
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@edwardz.rosenthal9946 I'm plenty chillaxed. If you don't want to know what indicates he doesn't give a crap, don't ask.
Threatening to paralyze the house doesn't necessarily get rid of Pelosi anyway. Jimmy's whole idea is she folds and gives you the vote, for your vote... and you still have Pelosi. So why pretend like that's even the goal?
Even if she didn't give you the vote and you paralyze the house, corporate Dems in caucus can keep picking her over and over and over. How long do you keep paralyzing the house for, as they blame you for no new covid relief, no new unemployment extension, no new vaccine funding, etc.?
Jimmy has also argued she'd rather work with Republicans rather than progressives, and Kyle has said she's the queen of backroom deals. She could just make a backroom deal with Republicans, and give them something in exchange for enough of them to be absent, or abstain, from the vote, lowering the threshold needed for her to win (Dore doesn't even know how the vote actually works, even when he reads it aloud).
Also stop pretending like just adding more pro-M4A votes to congress is doing nothing. That would make Jimmy's plan ... have a vote and then do nothing. Dore knobs are incoherent.
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@edwardz.rosenthal9946 The US healthcare system is disgusting. The lack of support for those in need is disgusting. But, unless you can somehow change the way government works, or overthrow the government, getting enough yes votes in congress is the only possible way to ever pass a bill. Getting more pro-M4A candidates elected, or converting enough candidates already elected, is the primary tactic, no matter what else is going on. Anyone working on that primary tactic isn't doing nothing, isn't a "shill", isn't a "sellout", isn't a "fake", and definitely isn't a "wimp", if they're in the swamp getting their hands dirty and trading punches in the actual political trenches.
This is all a debate about a secondary tactic, and whether it would provide more ammo, to accomplish the primary tactic. It's not going to get you M4A now. It's almost 100 votes short in the house alone, let alone the senate. So, what would it get you?
A list? You already get a new list of people in congress who won't sign onto the bill when it's reintroduced every new session, that need to be converted or replaced. You can already use that list to pressure them, protest them, or primary them. Why weren't the 100 extra Pro-M4A candidates Jimmy has lined up in the election that just happened? Why wasn't BJG organizing mass protests against anti-M4A candidates during the election that just happened? Why wasn't during the elections the time to act? Why isn't now the time to act, instead of after a failed vote?
Catch a few fakers? Who cares about trying to ferret out a few fakes, when you have 100+ people to convert or replace in the house and senate, already? There's already a lot of names to work with, without worrying about whether there's a few fakers, who wouldn't even have to expose themselves knowing it won't even pass the house.
Get a record of them outright opposing M4A to use against them? It took a single reporter's question to get Biden on public record saying he'd veto M4A. It didn't take threatening to paralyze the house. Plenty of these people have just campaigned and made public statements against M4A. So why isn't this being used against them already? What are Jimmy and his supporters waiting for? They could be doing whatever is supposed to spontaneously happen after a failed vote, right now.
A debate on the floor? That's the best reason I've heard. It could be used to inform the public and garner more support (only 36% of Americans want outright M4A, 26% want some private/public mix like a public option, and the others want the status quo or are complete Libertarian morons). But, the corporate Dem and Republican majority would also be using their debate time to misinform. Likely the corporate media, as well. It might be more productive to run some kind of pro-M4A information campaign directly to the public, where they don't also hear 3 anti voices, and a bunch of bad MSM press, per 1 pro voice. So, I'm more unsure on this point, and don't see the big benefit of the others.
So, for questionable gains, there are risks. If people desperately want M4A now, then they should already be doing most of those things already.
The DSA has been having M4A rallies. Get out to them, promote them, start your own.
The CBO (the government itself) just released a major study showing various types of single payer systems actually reduce overall costs. Spread the info.
If your rep's name isn't signed onto the M4A bill, demand to know why. If they won't budge, make sure to support a pro-M4A candidate against them. If there isn't one, find one fast.
What are all the impatient Dore fans waiting for? Do it right fucking now! Or are they just lazy armchair generals hoping a failed vote will spark others into rising up and doing it for them?
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@Lord_technofascist_nepobaby Maybe they don't bend over, and call you. Then you have to either cave, looking stupid, or paralyze the house. If you paralyze the house, during a pandemic, they can blame you for no new covid relief, blame you for no minimum wage hike, and whatever other harm a paralyzed house would cause to people.
Or, if Jimmy is right, and they'd rather work with Republicans than with progressives, then they could coordinate something with Republicans to counter progressive protest votes.
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