Comments by "WaterspoutsOfTheDeep" (@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep) on "David Pakman Show"
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Roma X
Also here are a fraction of the scriptures which deal with what I wrote. A million times more substantial than what you gave.
Genesis 1:1-2
Hebrew word for begining "bara" which means brought out of nothing.
In the dateless past Elohim brought out of nothing the heavens and the earth. (Hebrew translated)
Trinity is introduced because anything ended with im is plural. Elohim is the plural word for God.
Something is mising something is not right Gen 1:2 looking at the picture given.
Hayah is the Hebrew and should have been translated to "became" not" was" in Gen 1:2, but really doesn't change the picture.
Something took place between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2 because everything God makes or creates is perfect. Nothing God creates is shapeless formless and void.
Deuteronomy 32:4King James Version (KJV)
4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
Isaiah 45:18King James Version (KJV)
18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.
Ecclesiastes 3:11King James Version (KJV)
11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
Psalm 18:30King James Version (KJV)
30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the Lord is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.
Genesis 1:3King James Version (KJV)
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Intoduces the word let. Let is not a word of creation but always permission in the bible.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
We see God restoring not creating the atmosphere of the earth. The earth was flooded, there was a flood.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
The Hebrew word for made here is "asa" which means to shape or form to make. Not building, that is whole different word used when God created Eve. God wasn't creating something here he was simply restoring.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Once again let a word of permission. It also shows the earth was flooded.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Once again let a word of permission and we keep seeing let. Gen 1:3 and on is the work of restoration not creation.
Gen 1:2 we see a destroyed earth so what happened?
Job 9:1-7 King James Version (KJV)
1 Then Job answered and said,
2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?
3 If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.
4 He is wise in heart, and mighty in strength: who hath hardened himself against him, and hath prospered?
5 Which removeth the mountains, and they know not: which overturneth them in his anger.
6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.
7 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.
When did this destruction happen? It hasn't since Adam walked the earth. It won't in the millenium. Or after because God will just completely destroy and make a new one. It says God sealed up the heavens.
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
Now we see Gen 1:2 when the Holy Spirit walked upon the face of the waters.
Now lets see how we got the picture we see in Gen 1:2
Jeremiah 4:23King James Version (KJV)
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
In Gen 1 we go from the negative to the positive. Here we go from the positive to the negative. We also see no man, birds no birds, fruitful place to wilderness. Gen 1 we see the opposite. No man to man, no animals God creates them, wilderness to fruitfull place. Restoration not destruction. Then we see cities before Adam. Then we see God say he will not make a full end in other words he is not done with it he'll restore it which he did in Gen 1:3 onward.
Isaiah 24 gives the same picture of.
Isaiah 24:1King James Version (KJV)
24 Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
He turned the earth upside down. It hasn't happened since Adam. It's not gonna be during the Lords reign on earth or after that. Then we see he scattered abroad the inhabitants. If God did that to us we'd be dead yet these inhabitants are still alive. They are the preadamic race, only mentioned as demons now.
So we see in Job 9 God flooded the earth and Gen 1:2 the earth was flooded and the Holy Spirit was upon the face of the waters. There was no light no warmth so the earth was a frozen ball of ice. The destruction was sudden. Perhaps this was the ice age?
Job 38:1-7
1Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
This shows the angels were there when God restored the earth.The angels were created before this. This happened after the fall of Lucifer.
Job 38:25-30
25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
We see Gen 1:2 a frozen earth and the work of restoration.
Psalms 104 we see again the preadamic flood.
Psalms 104:4-8
4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
7 At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.
8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them.
Once again the picture of the preadamic flood. God rebuked the water. We don't see that in Noahs flood no rebuke. In fact with the flood of Noah it took 120 days. Here it was in an instant God rebuked it and the waters went away.
So what led to these events? What angered God that he'd do this?
Isaiah 14:9-20
9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
Talking about Satan, we see he was in heaven verse 12, at the time he was cut down there were nations, another proof of the preadamic era. Verse 13 onwards an evil desire entered his heart, where was he when this happened? He was on the earth it said he wanted to exalt his throne above the clouds meaning he was below them. We also see he had a throne on the earth. You can't have a throne without being a king and can't be a king without a kingdom. We see Satan was in hell before Adam was created but came to visit the earth to see if he could regain his position. We see the inhabitants destroyed at the rebellion talking to Satan. Which also shows us the preadamic race are what we call demons because it says they were in the pit and we know elsewhere in the scripture the pit is the abode of demons. So we see demons not men talking to Satan. We also see in 17 the wilderness like in Jeremiah the fruitfull place that became a wilderness because of Lucifer.
Ezekiel 28:1-11 is talking about the prince of Tyrus which is the anti-Christ. Verse 12 we see the King of Tyrus Satan being addressed.
Ezekiel 28:12-19
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Tyrus was the center of idolitry and here we find Satan is called the king of that. He was full of wisdom perfect in beauty. This is before his fall now. He was in the Eden of God the preadamic Eden, there were two Edens. The preadamic Eden and the adamic Eden. The preadamic belonged to Lucifer, the adamic to Adam. Lucifer was the anointed cherub that covereth. So we see something unusual he had two positions cherub and archangel. The only being in heaven with more than one office is Jesus. Lucifer was next in position to the Godhead we see. He was honored above all other angels. He walked up and down the throne of heaven by the stones of fire singing to the Lord since he was in charge of worship. Like we see around God in Exodus 24:10 and 17. God cast Lucifer out of his government, the mountain of God speaks of God's government. Verse 18 we see Lucifer had sanctuaries meaning he was a priest. So since he had a throne he was a king and priest over the earth. He defiled his priesthood by corrupting God's word to the inhabitants and kept it for himself and gave corrupted word to the inhabitants. Think if the influence and power to convince an innumerable number of angels which were one third and all the earth against God.
Gen 1:26-28
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Now God restoring the earth and creating Adam. We see God saying "replenish" and "subdue" it, confirming what was previously said. God said the exact same thing to Noah replenish which also shows confirmation. We see subdue which means the presence of enemy and still rebellion on the earth talking about the demonic world.
Gen 2:1 we see heavens from the Hebrew word shamayim. Which is the same word in Gen 1:1 which should also be heavens plural.
Gen 2:1 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
We see the word made confirms restoration.
2 Peter 3:5-7King James Version (KJV)
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
This is speaking of the preadamic flood because it says in the water speaking of Gen 1:6-9 flood not Noah's. He is saying the world before Adam was not reserved it was utterly destroyed. The world after Adam is reserved/preserved till judgment because Noah's flood only destroyed man and animal.
Gen 2:22
And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
The word made here in Hebrew is panah which means to build. The word in Gen 1 is asa which is make and form.
Gen 5:1-2
5 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
The name Eve came after the fall.
We don't know the length of period till the fall.
Gen 3:15
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
The very fact God said her seed speaks of the virgin birth of Christ, for had he said his seed it could not have been. But when he said her said it speaks of God's Son. Here God gave the promise of the coming messiah.
Gen 3 we see Satan stole back his position from Adam he had lost. But God also placed a curse on him and a promise of his destruction.
Gen 6 we see Satan tried to destroy the plan of God to destroy him in having the angels under him destroy the seed of the woman so no Christ could be born.
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Roma X
I was talking about the creation accounts all over the books of the bible being coherent. Yes the bible deals with human nature. Do you now what deceived means? We were never told Samson had the IQ of Daniel or Solomon. You want to complain about the actions of Israel? Seriously? So you are in support of baby sacrifice and all the other crap going on in neighboring nations? You do realize the whole point of the path of Israel in the old testament was to guide and preserve it. If that never happened there would not have been the arrival of Christ Jesus. I don't know why you think it's all myths when the events have been proven time and again. Then we have Jesus who himself confirmed the events most questionable like Noah and Jonah and so on. If you look over the scriptures I gave they sure seem coherent to me even though they span great time, place and author. Also Jesus existed and is God. He fulfilled many prophecies, did miracles, and raised from the dead showing his divinity. I find it comical you think the bible is so incoherent yet felt so differently earlier in life you went to school to study it. Jesus is the focal point of the whole bible. I don't know how you can come to the conclusion what he offers and his work is all stupid.
In fact speaking of the continuity of the bible you can find the person of Jesus all over it like in the old testament.
Like Abraham and Isaac. Abraham represents the Father, Issac represents the Son, Issac carried the wood to be sacrifced on up the hill, Jesus carried the cross the wood to be sacrificed on up the hill of Calvary. As Abraham was about to kill Issac God said no I will provide the sacrifice and gave a ram. Jesus is called the lamb of God and was the Fathers sacrifice for all of our sin because the bible says the work of the cross was the Fathers idea, remember Jesus praying not my will but yours be done.
There is the story of Israel in the desert becoming diseased and God telling them to put a serpent on a wooden pole and to look at it and be healed. The wooden pole is the cross and the serpent represent sin destroyed on the cross.
There is the story of the prophet Hosea. One of the best representations of Jesus. Hosea means savior. God tells Hosea to marry Gomer a prostitute. They have a child named Jezrial which means planted by God. Gomer sleeps around has two children Lo Ruhamah which means no mercy and Lo Ammi which means not my people. Gomer leaves Hosea and the children stay with him and he calls them Ruhamah meaning he will have mercy, and Ammi my people. He was upset and told the children to tell Gomer to come home. God says to Hosea no she won't respond to that. The bible says sleeping around and people who become drunks takes away their affection. But God says I'm going to make her instead repulsive to her lovers, and suddenly no one wants to be with her. She now has no money and she then is put on a slave block. Hosea goes to the slave block and buys her back. He says to Gomer you are not going to call me master I'm gonna be your husband. The perfect picture of redemption of Jesus buying us back from our sins saying I don't want to be your master I want to be your lover. It is one of the most beautiful pictures given in the bible.
The bible outlines both prayer and the person of Jesus in the description of the tabernacle. The gate(enter into his presence with worship and praise), Jesus is the gate, the 4 colors on the gate represents the 4 positions Jesus holds, as outlined in the four gospels which also is represented in the four faces on the cherub/living creature(which purpose is to protect God's glory) and the nature of each creature. Scarlet=Luke=Saviour=face of man, Purple=Mathew=King=lion(authority), White=Mark=Perfect Man=ox(servernt/sacrifice), Blue=John=Son of God=eagle(divinity). The the outercourt is where we cleanse ourselves to come into his presence the alter of sacrifice we cleanse ourselves with his blood he is the lamb, the laver he is the purifying word that washes us, blood and water poured out from his side when he was peirced by the spear. The outercourt represents one of 3 realms of prayer as outlined by Jesus. Knock(holy of holies), seek(holy place), ask(outercourt). Outercourt is the asking because that is where you make your requests known to the Lord. The Holy place, table of shobread Jesus is the bread, the life. The lamp stand, Jesus is the light, the way. The incense, Jesus is our High Priest in constant interscession for us our prayers go through him. Then the Holy of Holies the ark of the covenant, he is our covenant, the mercy seat stained with blood. All when conected make up the outline of the cross if looking from above. Every pole holding up the wall of the tabernacle had silver and brass on it speaking of redemption and suffering, the pole of wood speaks of his physical flesh his body it is acacia wood meaning eternal flesh the rope connected to the pole is made out of goats hair that had 11 strands of it in the rope, 11 is the number of destruction and goats hair speaks of sin, he destroyed our sin. The nail in the ground connected to the rope is brass, God said it should only be half way in the ground and half way out. Jesus is called the nail in Isaiah, and half in half out means he died and rose again.
The list goes on and on. I would argue there is immense continuity beyond description in the bible which attests to it being divinely inspired.
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Roma X
I just brought it up a second time about Samson being deceived. Yet you say again about him being deceived multiple times. Buddy he was deceived all along... That's what I've been saying once someones got you they've got you and anyone can be deceived.
I am almost sick to my stomach. You say you even preached for 10 years? Yet you question the use of the bible to validate the bible when it's validity has been proven time and again and is a historical document just like any other and can be used as such. In fact it has been found the documentation of historical events throughout the bible like during the old testament and neighboring kingdoms and their kings was recorded with 100% accuracy and was found even more accurate than all over secular sources.
"When compared against secular accounts of history, the Bible always demonstrates amazing superiority. The noted biblical scholar R.D. Wilson, who was fluent in 45 ancient languages and dialects, meticulously analyzed 29 kings from 10 different nations, each of which had corroborating archeological artifacts. Each king was mentioned in the Bible as well as documented by secular historians, thus offering a means of comparison. Wilson showed that the names as recorded in the Bible matched the artifacts perfectly, down to the last jot and tittle! The Bible was also completely accurate in its chronological order of the kings. On the other hand, Wilson showed that the secular accounts were often inaccurate and unreliable. Famous historians such as the Librarian of Alexandria, Ptolemy, and Herodotus failed to document the names correctly, almost always misspelling their names. In many cases the names were barely recognizable when compared to its respective artifact or monument, and sometimes required other evidence to extrapolate the reference2."
The list of such benefits and reliability of the bible go on and on.
Yes so there is no reason the bible can't be used to give proof of Jesus's divinity. You talk about dating of Sumarian text over and over. Well here is an example of where dating actually is important prophecy. Which I did bring up and you completely ignore now. The fact stands true Jesus did exist and fulfill these prophecies which speaks volumes. You can't say the same for these other religions. Also as you should know Jesus proves his divinity through freely offering a personal relationship to anyone. Which you very well must have known him if you were a Christian, went to seminary and preached for 10 years. Clearly you must have had a personal relationship with him and he called you to preach. Otherwise it is silly to do such a thing if God isn't in it.
We have evidence of God's personal relationship changing the lives of many in a instant. Remember the disciples who saw Jesus in the flesh, saw the dead raised, walked on water, the miracles. They all denied Jesus as he died on the cross. Christianity should have died on the cross. That is why I can tell YOU if you saw Jesus in the flesh, saw him raise the dead and so on and he even took you on the water and you both walked on it that still wouldn't be enough for you to give your life to him because it wasn't enough for the disciples. It was not till Jesus ascended and the Holy Spirit was given and his promise is to reveal Jesus to us and make him real to us. That is why suddenly all the disciples would give their lives for him so far as to die as martyrs. That is why hundreds of thousands of other Christians who never even saw Jesus or his miracles would rather die as martyrs many willingly instead of denying him. That can't be mass delusions. It is literally impossible. It is all because of the Holy Spirit. So you see you have exactly what you need to have Jesus proven to you without a doubt. I assume you never did know Jesus and have a relationship with him. You went to seminary thinking it would help you find him and pursued your work as a pastor and neglected all along the only person who could help you find him. The Holy Spirit. Being a Christian is nothing more than having a relationship with Jesus. If that's not there then a person isn't a Christian. Tithing, going to church, reading ones bible, or "praying" giving a list to God doesn't make someone a Christian.
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