Comments by "annoyed aussie" (@annoyedaussie3942) on "Dr. John Campbell"
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The European lockdowns are half arsed at best for most countries, a lower level of half arsed approach gets approximately the same results. The one problem with the US is 300,000,000 people with absolutely no travel restrictions, even internationally. Apparently the voluntary quarantine upon entry will become less voluntary as in the government might monitor it a bit and give out fines according to Biden plan. But we know that's probably not going to happen because who's going to do it, the national guard is the only possibility. The classic I saw is someone flying from Argentina to Florida to get their free vaccine, an Argentinian of course. So every virus strain on the planet gets to compete in the US. As far as rioting that's normal now, Antifa types still rioting in Portland after Joe Biden is in, they do wear sturdy clothing, masks and often goggles though , so at least they got something right even if it's for the wrong reason.
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I think you will find the Australian New Zealand TGA is making the decision , not our politicians, the best way to increase scepticism is for our politicians to overrule our transtasman agency, it would be even worse if one country followed it and one country overruled it. We have no where near enough vaccines for the 36,000,000 million people in our stated area of responsibility , all of Australasia. You might find our politicians have even greater problems when the vaccines start to roll out because at the earliest based on what we are told August might be when travel restrictions can be significantly reduced but possibly the vaccines could reduce quarantine for travel but this is uncertain and of course unproven. We will be ok , Australian or New Zealand complacency is not a serious issue , NZ won't even let Australians from covid 19 free states in, arguably too strict. Brisbane my city did a short lockdown without a single case of community transmission a first in the world apparently, just a hotel quarantine worker got the UK strain but seems didn't spread it. All Australian states plus NZ have absolutely open and comprehensive data sharing including all failures etc so we can all learn. So don't worry, just if restrictions put in obey them.
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Have you actually read the self isolation policy, even if you follow it you can spread the virus. You can go and stay with someone already in the UK and they don't need to isolate with you, you can also catch public transport. Every country Australia , New Zealand, Thailand, South Korea, China , Taiwan, Vietnam, it's 2 weeks compulsory hotel quarantine. Most of Europe and US all just a voluntary unsupervised scheme which is absolutely meaningless, the fine in the UK for breaking the rules is less than the cost of hotel quarantine when payment is required if they ever bothered to fine anyone which I don't think they have.
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@damianpos8832 Places that had lockdowns (Western Pacific region countries) are mostly completely open internally. I couldn't find the episode of that person you talk of but I would suggest, almost 2,000,000,000 of the most diverse populations on the planet would indicate that border quarantine and lockdowns work fine and leads to much less lockdown than lockdown lite jurisdictions that never lock down. Death rate per million in the worst country the Philippines is still less than 10% of US and most of Western Europe. Here's some demographics, Fat people Australia and New Zealand and fattest in the world some Pacific Island nations, skinny people Japan the thinnest rich nation on earth, Poor people in Philippines, Vietnam and PNG along with others, rich people in Australia , New Zealand, Singapore, South Korea and Japan. Dark skinned people in Melanesia and some South Asian immigrants in other countries, Light skinned in East Asia and elsewhere, Sun loving in Australia , New Zealand, Philippines etc. , hate sun females in east Asia to keep skin like K-pop idols. Weather, temperate with Snow East Asia, Tropical Singapore right on equator, and everything in between. Surely out of all these variables someone in our region would be at risk. We all have one thing in common and that's border policies, internal policies do differ somewhat however 5 major jurisdictions are virus free and the worst in our region is still far better than elsewhere in the world.
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@Unitedflyier Australia has 3 advantages and being an island isn't one of them, as far as people in my region being more compliant , other than Japan and China it's not really the case. Japan recently resorted to enforcement in the end rather than just require people to do things and if they don't up to them, so even Japan realised enforcement is required. The 3 real advantages are being somewhat ready, we found more cases in the first month as in towards the end of February than any European country, Italy was totally asleep only found a case on February 21, secondly regional culture regarding quarantine in general, we normally have the highest quarantine standards in the world especially Australia, New Zealand and Japan with South Korea and China not far behind I think, this also most likely translated to the entire West Pacific WHO region countries adopting 14 days enforced quarantine, the other advantage is our own internal political leadership. I saw how some Eastern European countries actually compared to us then they opened the borders and thousands dead, if I was one of those nations I would at least threaten to leave the EU because they pressured countries successfully to open borders and kill their own citizens, no different to Donald Trump.
If you followed what happened in Victoria then you would know luck doesn't play much of a part, the hardest lockdown outside of China other than maybe Italy in the beginning, however Italy just reopened and decided not to finish the job, Victoria decided to finish the job , the only place to do so at the time with cases reaching about 500 per day, outside of Wuhan. Victoria had more cases than Canada at the time and Canada has the exact same advantages as Australia, they shut the US border so what's their excuse.
The only genuine excuse is my government failed to act effectively for any rich country. If EU is a country because it acts like one then that government. If you want to include WHO well your regional office is run by countries in your region. PAHO ( Pan American Health Organization) and European region WHO countries have almost universally performed bad and followed the open borders, 10 days voluntary quarantine protecols or done nothing.
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@melmorrison1400 No I just look at places with comparable demographics to Australia and preferably comparable weather which actually doesn't seem to play a major part. Take Florida it would be somewhat comparable to my state Queensland, warm weather and not highly variable (almost everyone live near the coast). They have deaths per million approaching 2,000 and they have rolled out vaccines far quicker than us , so no reason we couldn't have had a similar or a higher death rate, we aren't genetically superior or something. I look on worldometer which seems pretty reliable and the open border countries with minimal restrictions in PAHO Pan-American Health Organization and European WHO regions mostly have deaths between about 1,500 per million and 2,500 per million. If you look at Western Pacific WHO region the deaths are less than 10% per Capita compared to those other regions, actions make a difference and at the regional WHO offices policies seem to be highly consistent between member countries especially border quarantine or no quarantine. The Delta variant every country now struggling, China, Vietnam, Australia but never struggled before. China has a reasonable vaccination rate but given the size of the population things can go very bad very quickly, the policy of testing entire city populations can't really be done anymore because have 30 cities or so with outbreaks. The good thing though is populations at least partly vaccinated except for Vietnam with a very low vaccination rate.
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Well sometimes John is wrong or wrong emphasis when relating possible reasons for various countries success or failure and not holistic enough. He is trying to understand too much too quickly and of course can't read every comment because too many. As one example. The discussion over masks should compare Australia, New Zealand and Taiwan, not UK. I am not saying masks don't help in the case of an out of control outbreak, they do. Taiwan never got to that stage, and nor has all states in Australia plus New Zealand, other than Victoria . So there is no concrete evidence that masks do anything other than slow the spread and possibly cause a low dose or alternatively different initial infection point which maybe reduces the chances of major illness or death. Those countries that contained the virus, even if at a latter date had problems all successful at initial detection of the virus, contact tracing, effective public messaging and draconian enforcement of measures if the population required that. In Australia it was certainly required, Victoria took a little different approach and didn't want to fine anyone and keep stuff open including borders. It's not entirely a coincidence Victoria is having problems in my opinion. So masks are really the last line of defence after all else has failed in my opinion, they can't stop an outbreak. Correlation is not causation, other measures created the success , not masks. If masks were 100% effective healthcare workers would never get infected and they are trained to use proper N95 or P2 masks and still get infected even if at lower rates than the general public.
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@williamhornabrook8081 the AZ vaccine is made all over the world, UK, Belgium, India, Thailand, Australia, China, USA, South Korea and others I believe, if France has the capability which I believe it has the government had to step in and provide funding to a local firm to start making it , also of course the local firm would need to agree to the "at cost " terms etc. from Astrazeneca and Astrazeneca gets nothing until pandemic I guess declared over by WHO to be over. In Australia for example the government paid for expansion of vaccine production capacity by CSL our local company.
To me the EU can't decide if it's a country or group of trading/security partners, so in a way I don't think France is totally to blame as an individual country, but collectively the EU seems to be a country, taking away the rights of it's membership. The open borders policy in the EU seems slightly tougher than what individual Australian states in Australia can and have done to protect themselves. I saw some EU person naming countries that have shut their borders to whatever extent the EU deemed wrong. To travel interstate in Australia if a state has a lot of cases need a pass and an approved reason to travel and if not an emergency like urgent medical care which is generally exempt 2 weeks hotel quarantine for about $2,800 . So the EU and US (including no enforceable interstate restrictions) open border policies have of course ended in the same results. UK and Canada same too but at least finally put in some fairly relaxed measures.
Certainly have sympathy to you as an individual but totally disagree with the choices made on your behalf.
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@broadaccent the 700 that died from the flu , so what? In Australia with covid 19 without restrictions it would be 25,000 dead, with relaxed restrictions in the order of the Swedish model 14,000 dead, we kept it to about 1,000 so far which I think is great. Every country is up sh+t creek without an effective vaccine because even somewhere like New York it's estimated only 20% got infected and it's possible enough time has passed and they can get reinfected and be carriers of the virus, walking biohazards for the vulnerable. That we don't really know maybe reinfection will be really low, the whole thing is no real knowledge , only parameters are known so worst case versus best case. People whinge and complain about 14 days quarantine but it was less than 100 years ago people would spend a month or so on some ship packed in like sardines I expect to come to Australia for £10 and escape Europe. Also I haven't heard Aussies or Kiwis desperately trying to run to one of the infected northern hemisphere countries, fleeing the oppression in Australia. It's quite remarkable sometimes people in places that are constantly locked down with who knows what restriction next week caring about a few Aussies getting locked up or arrested meanwhile even in Victoria the sun is about to shine with freedoms not enjoyed in many countries, just the border restrictions.
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@AndyDufresne11 the virus doesn't care if a government is a democracy like Australia or the UK or a one party dictatorship like China or Venezuela. No country on the planet has reported cases incorrectly except if capacity to do so was not there, or near the beginning when testing wasn't very good in all countries. There are 3 countries on the planet of 5,000,000 or more population that are virus free at the moment, Australia, New Zealand and China ( excluding Taiwan which has an outbreak). There are some small island nations or jurisdictions less than 1,000,000 people that are virus free. Criticise China for other issues if you want but refusing to accept they are virus free is just acting with absolute prejudice, every outbreak that caused a lockdown in China has of course been made public, impossible not to, can't lock down a city without telling them and the word getting out ( great Chinese firewall not that good). Technically you seem to be a Chinese supremacist because what you are suggesting is actually impossible and that is covering up nation wide lockdown or hundreds of 1000s of deaths.
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@Mis-AdventureCH Lockdowns, contact tracing , effective isolation of positive cases , border quarantine and testing are the reasons why a country has done well or lack there of poorly, I don't know why you talking about treatment protocols. Not sure what treatment has to do with anything regarding spread. You stated you were on 3 task forces, so you got your way it would seem in the jurisdictions you worked for. The Western Pacific WHO region took a different approach to you and your colleagues in either PAHO Pan-American Health Organization or European WHO regions I am guessing. Don't knock what other countries do, we are in a relative sense happy with our performance in our region , you are happy the other regions I mentioned did what you want. Note South Korea is in the same region to Australia, they also did 100,000 covid 19 tests by the end of February 2020, Australia was in second place on that measure per capita with 10,000 tests. The economic performance of South Korea for 2020 was in line with Australia with a 1% GDP decline but run up government debt slightly faster it seems. Anyway you are happy with your region and I am happy with mine as most are with less than 10% of the death toll on a per capita basis compared to regions that took a completely different approach even if you exclude China.
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@vietnam1978 Australia is technically called a continent now but it's ok to consider it an island. Just pointing out the island status has very little to do with success in dealing with covid 19, look at all the other islands in the world, they were not successful like the south west Pacific, Hawaii literally in the middle of nowhere had problems, Puerto Rico and rest of Caribbean mostly had problems, Malta, Cypress, island of Ireland. Madagascar has done very well however. Vietnam, China Thailand have also done well and not islands, it's the actions that are taken a virus can neither swim or walk across a border. Of course to be fair some poorer countries it was too difficult however they on average if not the Americas outperformed other countries, PAHO and European region of WHO have a lot to answer for in my opinion, the regional offices of the WHO show a remarkable correlation with procedures and success or no success, happy you are in Western Pacific WHO region like us with the 14 days mandatory enforced quarantine for arrivals and agressive actions for any outbreak, we did well.
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I watched the video you linked and it has one serious problem, it had 0 examples of a place with lockdowns and not lockdown lite full of holes, maybe Peru it was too late already without a Chinese style hard lock down. Every jurisdiction or on the case of USA 50 linked jurisdictions all other than arguably Hawaii with no lockdowns. What the video didn't set out to prove but sort of does is a non complete lockdown will have the same result, slowing the spread in a lockdown lite model as all countries mentioned did seem to produce approximately the same result. With the point about masks I agree it won't stop spread it will only slow the pace a little or maybe even a lot, a lot might change the doubling rate from 2 days to 6 days everything else being equal. Keep wearing your mask it reduces your risk but if of course you are surrounded by diseased people your risk goes up. Take care and if you want to compare lockdown countries look at the following Taiwan, South Korea, Japan , Thailand, Malaysia, Australia by state, Vietnam, New Zealand. You will see that there is no consistency in case numbers or pattern, only consistency is if quarantine fails cases go up quickly. In other words if you cherry pick you can sort of provide any anecdotal evidence which may appear to make sense to a non sceptic.
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@benwilson6145 Well point by point, Trump claims he is a Christian and isn't, Morrison is a Christian, so what I am an atheist and couldn't care less. I guess next point relates to the cruise ship well it happened so what? What matters is it was corrected. If he said Rupert Murdoch is his friend again so what, Rupert Murdoch has supported both sides of politics over the years and although he does or used to at least choose people to run his media interests he generally have them free reign and believes the media should represent both sides, if you look at the various Murdoch press in Australia it depends on the publication, the Australian for example although I haven't read it for a while was very balanced actually. Sky News Australia is comparable to Fox News , sometimes not sure which is worse. Qanon thing don't know about that or why he would say that Qanon hates all Australian politicians of both parties and thinks Trump is a world saviour. This would be completely contradictory to Morrison's UN speech where he mentions misinformation being spread about covid 19 , an indirect rebuff to Donald Trump the biggest spreader of misinformation. As far as outbreaks inside of a state it is the State governments fault because they are required to run the response, in the end Australia has succeeded and the Federal government is a major part of that success along with all state leaders, regardless of political party. In the beginning Dan Andrews and Morrison were actually the closest together on the response actually with open borders policy etc. Thank goodness other states ignored those 2 along with NSW because otherwise we would likely look like other countries. Again it's not by political affiliation the federal government is bleeding cash big time so of course wants borders open because that will help, all states except NSW and NT backed down it would seem on the definition of hotspot, now real position seems to be 14 days no cases of community transmission or your state will have travel restrictions except hardline WA won't budge at all yet. The states are scared of ever getting into the Victorian situation so remain cautious and Dan Andrews according to opening plan is now a hardline state having dropped the open border policy. In the end the federal government did assist states even when disagree on policy and of course provided major assistance to Victoria when needed, Trump I hate to say didn't seem to care one bit unless it's a "red state". So Australian leaders are nothing like Trump, Trump is literally like Pauline Hanson , who is good for our democracy because all voices should be heard but should never be and can never be Prime Minister. Australia has offered a far more consistent stimulus and truth is it was too generous and needs to be wound back. The US doesn't have that funds are cut at the moment because Trump wants a $100,000,000 not specified for exact spending and Democrats don't want him having $100 Billion not assigned properly because Trump using executive power can just spend it however he wants with very wide parameters. This is nothing like the Australian situation.
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@counselthyself I am not particularly arguing whether it will or won't be endemic, just that it's a political issue, Western Pacific WHO countries all have 14 days mandatory enforced quarantine, so yes politically on this issue China, Japan , Australia and Papua New Guinea are closely aligned , ignore other geopolitical issues. The US or PAHO Pan-American Health Organization area and European WHO region are closely aligned, So, Brazil, US , France and Mexico are all closely aligned on this issue , no closed borders just 10 days voluntary quarantine will do, internally France is now as strict as even Melbourne was during their crisis or similar at least but I would bet you the airport is still open and voluntary 10 days quarantine is still in place and anyone with money can just go elsewhere in Europe with no lockdown. So I think can go either way , the other WHO health regions are somewhere between the above mentioned regions, politically in the end will China and Australia for example say we must accept the Euro and Pan American disease which is what it now is or will it go the other way and they finally they decide better to not keep the disease. Of course I am Australian I want your regions to tow the line and not accept another new virus becomes equivalent of the flu but probably worse because like you say the mutations that might be far worse than currently, the UK strain isn't the original virus, far more infectious, about half of all quarantine breaches in Australia were this strain despite it not being around for long and it seems a little more deadly especially for younger people, however the good news is the vaccines are still highly effective against it , but a little less so than the original strain.
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@counselthyself The variants won't get into China, Australia, New Zealand, Vietnam and the smaller Pacific nations like Fiji, unfortunately some countries have effectively fallen to the virus, doing well then boom such as Malaysia, Japan Papua New Guinea and Thailand, they were all at 0 or extremely close for a long time but moved towards situations like other countries, time will tell if they make a comeback and go for 0 or they will essentially give up and end up like the "hard hit" countries. You noted you were from Canada, Canada had less cases than Melbourne Victoria Australia when they hit their peak, I was thinking at the time great Canada is going to get rid of this thing , very impressive falls in cases etc. and Victoria Australia will be cut off from the rest of Australia for a very long time. My predictions were completely wrong.
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@rhonda6791 About bushfires maybe but the pandemic of course he cares , in the end the commonwealth has supported the states well. Ignore a lot of the noise and look at actions, the military for example assisting with the NSW / QLD border control, probably the federal government doesn't want to but in the end they are there. The main problem with NSW seems to have been Gladys in charge not the CHO, some responses at press conference indicate this, politicians like to keep everything open so NSW remained arrogant and thought they didn't need to lockdown and then lockdown lite allowed the virus to spread all over the state. It's true in Sydney it might have happened anyway like in Melbourne because they did the right thing and locked down quickly but now looks like lost control, however as vaccination rates increase in both states in theory cases should come down at some point, I personally think little of the modelling by Doherty Institute, we have real life situation which will happen no matter what, the modelling doesn't really help other than give an approximate time line of when things might get under control. The other thing is politicians are contradicting themselves about what opening up means, some statements indicate let it rip and other statements indicate in reality it means allow quarantine breeches all the time but jump on them and go back to 0 without any lockdown. Cases only go 2 directions up or down they never remain stable.
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@SGI999 You claim to be a constitutional lawyer and know that all vaccine mandates go against the constitution, well it could come down to one's job type and whether or not it's reasonable. My feeling is health workers have 0 chance of winning their case however others might have a chance in some circumstances as in it's not reasonable. If people are employed by the government then my guess they don't have a good chance. You're complaining about New South Wales government from what I understand and about historical things a few months ago. You also complaining about inflation, housing is the biggest cost in Sydney if you live there, move if you don't like it. There's plenty of food on shelves so you must be well off and complaining about not getting your favourite cut of meat or that if you like beef that's gone up a bit which is great , that means Australia is exporting more at a higher price, unless you want communism or to stop farmers selling to the highest bidder that's how it is for an international commodity. So I don't understand your concerns at all, only that you're scared of taking a vaccine. Omicron is the best thing that could ever happen, it gets things over with quickly and the Chief Health Officer in Queensland said in the most recent press conference that things are looking good and the cases are a massive undercount. He said they were cautious in saying anything up to now because QLD had 0 cases of natural infection so couldn't compare to other jurisdictions, however it's turning out ok, the vaccines are doing their job. NSW has peaked and QLD as a whole is about 2 weeks behind is the estimate. Cases are going down in your state cheer up a bit, doesn't mean it's over but it's probably on the way to being over, schools might be an issue we have to wait and see if the unions want to shut them when there's outbreaks or alternatively teachers required to stay home and quarantine when infected. My feeling is Australia as a whole will have less problems keeping schools open than say a country like the US. Australia having less than 10% of the deaths of European countries and the US is a good thing isn't it and you say vaccines might not be working but clearly they are in stopping severe illness and death. I understand your feelings towards your state government but NSW isn't Australia despite how our PM talks sometimes.
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I think John mixed up his numbers, there weren't even 300,000,000 in Europe 1900. The total world population was estimated to be 1.6 billion in 1900 and I am guessing at least half would have been China and South Asia. I am in Australia and apparently estimates of indigenous population before European arrival vary from 300,000 to 1,000,000. In Australia's case I go for the former mainly because no staple food, no corn, wheat, potato, rice or even coconut, there were things to eat but just consider only 1 commercial crop has originated from an Australian plant , the Macadamia. It's extremely hard to live without modern technology and no high value staple food. Disease did devastate the Americas and Oceania which didn't have the Eurasian diseases.
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@David WP Are those people dead? Then no because if they ended up in hospital in the trial they would have had 100 tests run on them and if they subsequently died their cause of death would be known with a high degree of certainty. It amazes me you seem to care more for the dead than the living. Now that testing is widely available and most covid 19 deaths have occured in the last 6 months the total death numbers will be reasonably accurate. An accuracy rate of plus or minus 20% would be fine , it would change no decisions. You can also compare data with accurate jurisdictions like Australia , Japan , South Korea etc. and see if anything stands out and probably suspected covid 19 deaths in New York and London early on would be over counted because of dealing with people already dead inside a residence or on the street. And so what if a few deaths are counted as suspected covid when it was diabetes or heart disease, the 2 lockdown killers in Australia responsible for about 1,000 excess deaths in a population of 25,000,000. So someone could probably do some adjustments and it will change nothing. I know that the lockdown was responsible for the excess deaths because ABS ( Australian Bureau of Statistics) had a graph for the first 6 months of last year and it clearly showed excess deaths in March/ April then reverting to below expected again. If the UK adjusted just using gross Australian data if the same spike is not apparent in the UK it can only bring the suspected deaths number down 3,000 which is very low and changes nothing, it would be nothing more than an academic exercise.
As far as sky News Australia suggesting we should kill 30,000 people and be like Sweden which they often promoted previously , well although some supporters of that do exist it's not really a popular idea, we don't see people flowing out of Australia to go to partial lockdown countries with mostly freedom to travel, in fact we see those countries with high freedom of international travel reconsidering their position as the body count increases.
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They aren't really, in the initial stages China was reporting Covid 19 only , not cases of Covi sars2. That is actually technically correct and other countries reported all covi sars2 cases as covid 19. They adjusted their numbers to follow the technically incorrect method. As far as them being able to keep numbers low after the authoritarian lock down, much tougher than anywhere else , well Taiwan, South Korea, Vietnam, Thailand , Malaysia Australia ex Victoria, New Zealand have all shown it's possible, the problem is keeping up the vigilance and not making critical errors. In Victoria and therefore Australia about 90% of the country's current cases all come from a quarantine breach involving one family and then failure to act quickly. This has been determined by dna testing of the strains current floating around in Victoria.
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@breakthroughchiropracticcl3526 Well the most compelling evidence is the consistency of approach by WHO region and consistency of outcome up until the last few months with the new more contagious variants. The entire Western Pacific WHO region has mandatory enforced usually hotel quarantine for all international arrivals and as pointed out in another comment SARS affected our region significantly at the time with tourism so some preparedness because of that. 3 of the toughest quarantine countries in the world are in our region , Japan, Australia and New Zealand so we take quarantine very seriously and have systems in place. The most compelling despite all that I just said is actually the fact that countries such as Thailand, Malaysia and Vietnam that were doing as well as others in our general region (Thailand and Malaysia are in South East Asia WHO region which tended to have shorter mandatory quarantine) have completely failed. Sydney is now experiencing great difficulties due to the Delta variant with about 100 cases a day and they have the hardest lockdown in that state excluding the initial lockdown from over a year ago. The other aspect look at the diversity in our WHO region , China, Vietnam, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Australia , New Zealand, The Philippines and Papua New Guinea along with a lot of small Pacific nations. Collectively we have nothing in common except our overall response particularly with borders.
I have raved on for a bit , up to you to consider what I have said.
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Same with Australia but a significantly different result, not saying there isn't a problem but it's not what you identified. The UK it's divided into 4 jurisdictions, one for each country within the Kingdom. Within about 2 weeks of it getting serious in Australia last March sometime if my memory is correct , 5 out of 8 states and territories shut their borders with stricter controls in place than ever happened in Europe for goods movement, every company needed to come up with a covid safe plan and have it approved for each state they travel to and from if one of the closed border states as an example. Otherwise only essential travel unless exemption like urgent medical care or special border zone travel permits with certain states. If for essential travel 14 days mandatory enforced hotel quarantine at $2,800 for a single, extra 10 days if refused to get tested at extra cost ( Queenslands rules), the cost could be exempted on compassionate grounds, probably not the extra 10 days if anyone was stupid enough not to be tested. The actions taken by Australian states could have been done by all countries mentioned, but exactly 0 states/provinces/countries (in the case of UK) took these actions, seems your provincial governments are cowardly. It could be due to listening to PAHO your regional office of WHO, all countries in the Western Pacific region of WHO did the same as Australia around the same time, top 40 countries last time I looked were in the countries covered by PAHO and European region of WHO. Maybe it's total coincidence but I think not, your offices of WHO might be to blame but only people from your region running them, WHO as a whole shouldn't be blamed and I would suggest the Western Pacific WHO office has done a good job, behind the scenes outside of politics our diverse group of countries are probably cooperating quite well, China is in that WHO grouping.
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@YY-jv4uu It's simply untrue that in Australia suicides increased last year, they didn't. It's true to say there were more suicides than covid 19 deaths, the suicide rate of the nation is about 13 per 100,000 based on 2019 data so around 3500 suicides per year we are now about a year and a half into the pandemic and there have been over 1,000 covid 19 deaths and around 5,500 suicides assuming the rate was roughly in line with 2019. Obviously the pandemic was never going to stop suicides so I am unsure what your point is, lockdowns do increase diabetes and heart attack deaths mostly I think it is , obviously evidence has shown the hard and fast lockdown jurisdictions like Queensland, Western Australia and New Zealand that this is the most effective because the shortest time being in lockdowns and very few deaths, the cautious approach has proven to be the best, if the entire world followed this the pandemic would be over now. I think you will actually find suicides and homicides increased in 2020 in jurisdictions with long lockdown lite measures like the US, based on 34 cities in the US homicides increased by about 50% which is massive and on top of the 5 times the rate of other wealthy nations, the US is the poster child of how not to do things and the only thing they have been successful at is producing vaccines but not very good at actually getting high vaccination rates.
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@zeroneutral in answer to your queries and assertions, the death numbers will be highly accurate in Taiwan, South Korea, Japan , Thailand, Australia and New Zealand because very low cases means other than at the beginning all suspicious deaths people will be tested and even the strain of the virus will be tested because unless it is through known contact they want to check it's not a new outbreak. The high case rate countries will be less accurate but I would suggest if they are a high income country then at least 95% plus accurate versus the low case countries being 99% on average more accurate, ( a case could always be missed and if deaths are really low percentage terms it could actually be less accurate). The hard lockdown as you put it in Australia is different state by state. Every state has some border restrictions and all but one state Victoria have very relaxed internal restrictions by world standards. I will give the travel restrictions of Queenslanders and it might amaze you. There is a border zone where residents of New South Wales and Queensland can cross the border after going through a Queensland checkpoint but must stay within the zone specified. If someone comes from New South Wales or Victoria and are not exempted like trucks for example or the border zone exemption. To travel into Queensland a Border pass (sort of like a visa) is required and you must declare where you have been for the previous 14 days and if you lie could be 6 months imprisonment. If you have been in Victoria or New South Wales in the last 14 days you need to be quarantined in a government supervised hotel at the cost of $2,800 AUD for a single, extra 10 days plus costs if you refuse to be tested. Other states people can enter without quarantine, however some states are a little tougher than Queensland. To give the most extreme example , to enter Western Australia basically you can't unless you are going there to live permanently or visit a very close relative or something. So sort of like a permanent resident visa I guess. Western Australia has virtually said to it's residents if you leave Western Australia and it isn't for essential travel you might not be permitted re entry. The example is they are being told they can't come to Queensland to see a football game because it's not essential. Western Australia of course has same quarantine procedure but not sure of cost. So travel restrictions in my opinion have gone a little crazy however I do agree with the rights of the states to do it. I think my state is about right with travel restrictions and sort middle of the road by Aussie standards at present.
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Brit Mk 2 No, British people are just humans, if the government has a relaxed mitigation strategy why would the public take any notice. If they don't care ,why should I? To this day your government allows people to enter the country and go into what is effectively voluntary quarantine and if your quarantine site is in an English household the people you are potentially infecting are not required to quarantine. Look up your governments policy, it's a super relaxed approach of mitigation. It's much more difficult to cross state borders in Australia than it is national borders in Europe. Although unlikely a Victorian Australian can travel to England and undergo the quarantine procedures as I partially outlined by one example. If the Victorian was to travel to Queensland , 14 days mandatory government hotel quarantine with 2 tests to be done during your stay. You will be required to contribute costs for your stay which will be more expensive for one person $2,800 AUD than the £1,000 penalty if you get caught breaking the extremely relaxed quarantine procedures in England. If you refuse to be tested an extra 10 days in quarantine and I suspect more costly. Just a few days ago one person was sentenced to 2 months gaol because they broke the government orders in April on one day by throwing a party and got a $1,600 fine I think it was and then the next day did it again hence the prison sentence. The government is a function or representative of the people and visa versa. Going to school in Queensland hasn't been considered an issue recently, they will just shut an entire school down if it is found a person who tested positive has been there and everyone gets tested and reopen in once people have got the all clear, probably a week or 2 but I'm not sure. I wish you the best of luck and think you should just keep yourself family and friends as safe as you can, your government isn't going to protect you, they only care about hospitals overflowing in my opinion.
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@sailaway8244 You have to realise that out of Australia and NZ there only 2 places with much tougher restrictions than the go to standard Sweden other than travel restrictions, that is Melbourne and Auckland, Aucklands current tougher measures will probably be down graded along with the rest of NZ in a week or 2. Melbourne has fairly tough restrictions at the moment and the rest of Victoria a little less, I think it could be another month or so for Victoria because many cases. It's only 1 jurisdiction but NZ has seen a small decrease in suicides, Australia it has apparently remained flat. If the great depression is anything to go by the by product of the economic downturn is likely to be increased life expectancy. I saw from a commenter but not official that hospitals in NZ are having less cases of food poisoning. In Australia the number of flu cases has dropped dramatically . You must factor in human behaviour which people are not doing and just applying a negative attitude to everything. Having parents stay home with kids has of course helped many families and brought them closer together and it has been said but only anecdotally that child abuse might have increased but actually no evidence at this point in time, only that it's a concern it might happen. So should that be looked into and monitored of course but don't jump the gun and just assume suicides and violence are going to increase. In uncertain times I would think people reduce risky behaviour but that's just my thought, all I have to go off is the years when the economy declined in the US during the great depression life expectancy rose. So I can't see why relatively short term economic decline in it of itself causes any long term harm overall. I don't think we are likely to agree, I think 10,000 dead Australians is a price too high and as far as ok protect them , nowhere other than Singapore has succeeded at this and pretty sure Australia and NZ we couldn't, our societies are not as compliant.
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I don't agree, he's disappointed that we as a country couldn't keep it up , however I think he does to some extent not understand about vaccinating a population with few cases, it slows the process down for various reasons, however that's largely changed now. In simple terms , if the closet covid 19 case of community transmission so far is 2,000km away , pretty hard to make someone think getting a vaccine is urgent, if the local shopkeeper just died last week from covid 19 people are much more willing to make the effort to be vaccinated. There is also the issue of supply because we only manufacture Astrazeneca which took a while to ramp up and not recommended for below 40 unless there's an outbreak. The supply from other countries was a bit slow because countries with no cases move down the queue, that's changed to a large extent now as countries become fully, as in everyone who wants the vaccine so far has got it, vaccinated
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A poor Indian or Indonesian which there are a lot of were in "lockdown" by US standards even before the pandemic, if you only have enough money to survive you aren't traveling all over the place going to bars and restaurants, also if people know they are vulnerable they take precautions. There's no guaranteed expectation that you will get a hospital bed unless you are rich. But more broadly speaking countries that have restrictions have far lower deaths, compare the Western Pacific WHO region that all had 14 days mandatory enforced usually hotel quarantine for entry, less than 10% of the deaths per Capita of PAHO Pan-American Health Organization region and European WHO region both without quarantine just some voluntary scheme. The numbers speak for themselves and the thing about the Western Pacific WHO region is it's extremely diverse, China, Japan, Philippines, Papua New Guinea, Australia as examples we have significantly different cultures, governments etc. but we all did the same thing and have similar results. India and Indonesia are in the South East Asia WHO region and there policies far more strict than Europe or Americas but less strict than the Western Pacific and their deaths and cases are in between.
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