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@laureebee5226 well there's a lot of Apples in our part of the world, the West Pacific. Australia , my country, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia and New Zealand. Call us the apple countries if you want , Western Europe , US and other Americas countries are the Oranges.
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Don't include Australia in your list thanks, look at Australia and Singapore and our extremely close relationship and general policies. The closet bilateral relationship of Singapore is Australia, they are one of 3 countries permitted to do military training in Australia and have a permanent training presence here. The trio of Australia, Singapore and New Zealand lead the way in free trade deals and this shows up in the economic freedom index by Heritage Foundation, having top 3 positions currently. Between these 3 countries the bilateral plus multilateral trade deals stack 4 high between each country, so almost impossible to remove ourselves from this arrangement. I would agree that G20 countries tend to have more diplomatic issues, but this is a factor of a few things such as smaller countries know to be more diplomatic because no choice and even if they stuff up nobody noticed, for example if Singapore has some dispute with Malaysia it will only be local news, if it's between say Australia and China as is currently occurring it's world news especially in business. The Singaporean PM said China might be going down the wrong path which isn't good for them, it was diplomatic speak I think referring to how China bullies with trade which causes instability. Almost all of ASEAN plus Australia and New Zealand, have similar relationship with China and US, a balancing act.
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@cancangirl2888 If you look at the most successful countries in dealing with covid 19 it's the Western Pacific region of WHO and we all have 14 days mandatory enforced quarantine, Europe WHO region and PAHO Pan-American Health Organization regions all have 10 days voluntary quarantine for arrivals ( some exceptions recently with Canada and UK) . The West Pacific WHO region includes China down to New Zealand, ASEAN countries are split between this region and South East Asian WHO region which includes South Asia, probably second best performing region. Either remarkable coincidence or it's the regional WHO offices that made the difference, can't blame all WHO, the consistency of results in the regions. Singapore initially had a policy like that of Sweden but they changed course. Stopping free unquarantined travel is a must have component in containment of covid 19, about 250,000 people have been through hotel quarantine when returning to Australia, any country could have done the same, without this the virus will keep coming in in an uncontrolled manner, many of the deaths in Europe and US now are the UK variant, so more people dying from the more transmissible and seemingly more deadly variant that didn't have to be there. So can say regional culture , but has nothing to do with being "eastern" or something, virus respects 14 days mandatory quarantine but doesn't care about 10 days voluntary quarantine.
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The European lockdowns are half arsed at best for most countries, a lower level of half arsed approach gets approximately the same results. The one problem with the US is 300,000,000 people with absolutely no travel restrictions, even internationally. Apparently the voluntary quarantine upon entry will become less voluntary as in the government might monitor it a bit and give out fines according to Biden plan. But we know that's probably not going to happen because who's going to do it, the national guard is the only possibility. The classic I saw is someone flying from Argentina to Florida to get their free vaccine, an Argentinian of course. So every virus strain on the planet gets to compete in the US. As far as rioting that's normal now, Antifa types still rioting in Portland after Joe Biden is in, they do wear sturdy clothing, masks and often goggles though , so at least they got something right even if it's for the wrong reason.
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@isorokuyamamoto8423 Australian iron ore exports represent over 50% of the internationally traded iron ore and China imports around 70% of the internationally traded iron ore so for all intensive purposes Australia is the only seller. Australia has no intention to retaliate , if it did however it would have no effect on the general economy as in probably not even a single job lost, our mines are highly efficient and quite automated, for example one person will operate 6 dump trucks from a computer in Perth. The Chinese economy however would be devastated in the short term, the only real driver of growth is the command economy construction with an estimated 50,000,000 vacant apartments, China also exports around 7% of it's steel production. Everyone knows that the good times from iron ore will end sometime and if China changed to a free market economy tomorrow they would suffer a massive collapse and iron ore requirements would plummet. Interesting a person with a Japanese name is pro CPC and China. Japan and South Korea and others in our region could easily replace the Chinese exports of steel, I think that wouldn't be a problem, obviously the US due to it's location and the location of steel mills wouldn't make sense.
So in summary Australia has no intention to retaliate as of now and if we did in a direct sense it would do little harm to us, it would just be bringing forward the inevitable which is eventually China will stop putting up ghost buildings and cities. Australian government debt is only about 45% so pretty low by international standards and the government although it certainly loves the revenue generated from iron ore can and eventually will have to survive without the current windfall brought on by China's policies.
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I think you will find the Australian New Zealand TGA is making the decision , not our politicians, the best way to increase scepticism is for our politicians to overrule our transtasman agency, it would be even worse if one country followed it and one country overruled it. We have no where near enough vaccines for the 36,000,000 million people in our stated area of responsibility , all of Australasia. You might find our politicians have even greater problems when the vaccines start to roll out because at the earliest based on what we are told August might be when travel restrictions can be significantly reduced but possibly the vaccines could reduce quarantine for travel but this is uncertain and of course unproven. We will be ok , Australian or New Zealand complacency is not a serious issue , NZ won't even let Australians from covid 19 free states in, arguably too strict. Brisbane my city did a short lockdown without a single case of community transmission a first in the world apparently, just a hotel quarantine worker got the UK strain but seems didn't spread it. All Australian states plus NZ have absolutely open and comprehensive data sharing including all failures etc so we can all learn. So don't worry, just if restrictions put in obey them.
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You are wrong, for almost all people who support Trump it's true. There is an excuse for every number. The US tests more, our numbers are not rising ( for a week or 2 now), Other countries don't count the dead people, every car accident in the US is labeled as a covid death, other less well off countries are incapable of testing, the tests don't work that's why our positivity rate is high and others low, Other countries all have an easier time containing it because they are small and compact or more spread out, the cases are skyrocketing in Japan and Australia (sky rocketing to the point they might see a death toll per capita like that of Hawaii if triple the numbers of deaths, actually somewhat likely. Hawaii and Alaska actually haven't done that bad so far, distance from the mainland is helpful I think), the main stream media, China, WHO are all lying. I think my list isn't even exhaustive yet, I am sure I missed a few other theories, so the US is doing great.
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Have you actually read the self isolation policy, even if you follow it you can spread the virus. You can go and stay with someone already in the UK and they don't need to isolate with you, you can also catch public transport. Every country Australia , New Zealand, Thailand, South Korea, China , Taiwan, Vietnam, it's 2 weeks compulsory hotel quarantine. Most of Europe and US all just a voluntary unsupervised scheme which is absolutely meaningless, the fine in the UK for breaking the rules is less than the cost of hotel quarantine when payment is required if they ever bothered to fine anyone which I don't think they have.
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@damianpos8832 Places that had lockdowns (Western Pacific region countries) are mostly completely open internally. I couldn't find the episode of that person you talk of but I would suggest, almost 2,000,000,000 of the most diverse populations on the planet would indicate that border quarantine and lockdowns work fine and leads to much less lockdown than lockdown lite jurisdictions that never lock down. Death rate per million in the worst country the Philippines is still less than 10% of US and most of Western Europe. Here's some demographics, Fat people Australia and New Zealand and fattest in the world some Pacific Island nations, skinny people Japan the thinnest rich nation on earth, Poor people in Philippines, Vietnam and PNG along with others, rich people in Australia , New Zealand, Singapore, South Korea and Japan. Dark skinned people in Melanesia and some South Asian immigrants in other countries, Light skinned in East Asia and elsewhere, Sun loving in Australia , New Zealand, Philippines etc. , hate sun females in east Asia to keep skin like K-pop idols. Weather, temperate with Snow East Asia, Tropical Singapore right on equator, and everything in between. Surely out of all these variables someone in our region would be at risk. We all have one thing in common and that's border policies, internal policies do differ somewhat however 5 major jurisdictions are virus free and the worst in our region is still far better than elsewhere in the world.
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@Unitedflyier Australia has 3 advantages and being an island isn't one of them, as far as people in my region being more compliant , other than Japan and China it's not really the case. Japan recently resorted to enforcement in the end rather than just require people to do things and if they don't up to them, so even Japan realised enforcement is required. The 3 real advantages are being somewhat ready, we found more cases in the first month as in towards the end of February than any European country, Italy was totally asleep only found a case on February 21, secondly regional culture regarding quarantine in general, we normally have the highest quarantine standards in the world especially Australia, New Zealand and Japan with South Korea and China not far behind I think, this also most likely translated to the entire West Pacific WHO region countries adopting 14 days enforced quarantine, the other advantage is our own internal political leadership. I saw how some Eastern European countries actually compared to us then they opened the borders and thousands dead, if I was one of those nations I would at least threaten to leave the EU because they pressured countries successfully to open borders and kill their own citizens, no different to Donald Trump.
If you followed what happened in Victoria then you would know luck doesn't play much of a part, the hardest lockdown outside of China other than maybe Italy in the beginning, however Italy just reopened and decided not to finish the job, Victoria decided to finish the job , the only place to do so at the time with cases reaching about 500 per day, outside of Wuhan. Victoria had more cases than Canada at the time and Canada has the exact same advantages as Australia, they shut the US border so what's their excuse.
The only genuine excuse is my government failed to act effectively for any rich country. If EU is a country because it acts like one then that government. If you want to include WHO well your regional office is run by countries in your region. PAHO ( Pan American Health Organization) and European region WHO countries have almost universally performed bad and followed the open borders, 10 days voluntary quarantine protecols or done nothing.
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@mjor6406 What are you talking about, I did a quick search , in 2018 5% of the healthcare budget went to research so the remainder is still more than Australia per Capita. Australia has 125,000,000 vaccine doses on order so if they all work out then approximately 80,000,000 doses will be donated, those US companies getting money from everywhere. We are producing 50 million doses of the AZ vaccine but it's recommended only for 40 plus age group, younger to get Pfizer but can request AZ, a bit messy actually however many doses of the AZ are already being exported. Canada will export (not receive ) most of it's ordered doses also and donate them . The US was useless when it counted , all that skill but completely disfunctional, 500 covid 19 tests by the end of February 2020 which compares to 100,000 in South Korea and in second place on a per capita basis Australia with 10,000 tests. The population of the US is 13 times that of Australia so of course no other country comes close in gross numbers regarding research achievements. You might however have heard of something called Wi Fi or Cochlear ear implants or discoveries regarding stomach ulcers or the cervical cancer vaccine first developed in Australia or go way back you might have heard of penicillin developed jointly in Australia and England. We actually did develop 2 covid 19 vaccines, one of which up to phase 2 looked good however it gave false positives to HIV tests so it was decided not to continue due to time it would take to start again using a different protein that would remove that problem. CSL might not be the biggest pharmaceutical and blood products company in the world however they have a market cap of $133 billion AUD so not too bad. I don't know about Canada but Australia at least, punches at a similar level for our size to the US.
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@melmorrison1400 No I just look at places with comparable demographics to Australia and preferably comparable weather which actually doesn't seem to play a major part. Take Florida it would be somewhat comparable to my state Queensland, warm weather and not highly variable (almost everyone live near the coast). They have deaths per million approaching 2,000 and they have rolled out vaccines far quicker than us , so no reason we couldn't have had a similar or a higher death rate, we aren't genetically superior or something. I look on worldometer which seems pretty reliable and the open border countries with minimal restrictions in PAHO Pan-American Health Organization and European WHO regions mostly have deaths between about 1,500 per million and 2,500 per million. If you look at Western Pacific WHO region the deaths are less than 10% per Capita compared to those other regions, actions make a difference and at the regional WHO offices policies seem to be highly consistent between member countries especially border quarantine or no quarantine. The Delta variant every country now struggling, China, Vietnam, Australia but never struggled before. China has a reasonable vaccination rate but given the size of the population things can go very bad very quickly, the policy of testing entire city populations can't really be done anymore because have 30 cities or so with outbreaks. The good thing though is populations at least partly vaccinated except for Vietnam with a very low vaccination rate.
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老人香港 in local media I can assure you that we criticise each other, Trump was considering applying his trade war on Australia, that wasn't reported favourably in Australia, we have a deficit with the US so that probably helped and we weren't hit with anything. With the thermal coal issue it may not be what we think and even with metallurgical coal, China produces a vast amount of coal, it might have just been simple protectionism to support Chinese coal producers not doing so well, there is a glut of thermal coal worldwide with many mines running at a loss, no reason Chinese mines wouldn't be in the same position, so could be to push the internal price up a little and also other diplomatic purposes for example signing some deal with Indonesia. So I don't put coal in the same basket as barley, wine, lobsters etc. which has nothing to do with protectionism as far as I can tell.
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First of all you don't lockdown everyone , that would be silly, you prevent it from spreading to the entire country. It's got nothing to do with population size, in fact take closing an airport as an example, one person gives an order that's it, so it's the exact same job whether the city has 500,000 people or 10,000,000, same applies to closing a road or a factory or whatever, you only need a ratio of people to do what needs doing, that ratio doesn't get exponentially bigger it probably gets smaller.
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@bicanoo_magic3452 Your first comment gives us Aussies a bad name. Your second comment you are correct in some of your statement, but completely wrong about CDC US and WHO, we never had enough cases until recently to have data on the issue, we rely 100% on their information. Australia and US did exactly the same things at the same time til mid March. We got serious closing state borders and all international borders with compulsory quarantine. The US now still haven't done any of that. Interestingly Canada is now where we are because of Victoria's failures. Canada started bad but not as bad as US but now same to Australia. Without border closures internally we might be in the same situation as US because of Victoria. The actions in the US in the beginning were complete failures when towards the end of February the US had discovered the same number of cases as Australia, clearly they were totally inept at that point because they certainly had more cases than Australia. Please compare Australia with Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand and NZ, we all successful so far but not without problems in Australia, Japan and South Korea.
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@sunshinelizard1 Yes it's sad seeing what is happening in the US. As far as vaccinations go one man could have changed everything, most Governor's in that party will follow his messaging no matter what, like little puppy dogs, the ex president has done too little too late and now all those governor's can't change their messaging even though ex president has subtly changed, still not far enough but better than nothing. If people behaved like this about 250 years ago it would have taken a lot longer before independence came about and the US wouldn't actually exist, it would be a group of ex colonies that never would have united/been conquered English, Spanish and French colonies.
As far as constitutional freedoms, no such things exist regarding health, quarantine and other health measures were found to be constitutional 100 years ago in the US, the only argument is the health order reasonable and vaccination requirements are very common in the US actually, probably more so than Australia except for the covid 19 vaccine, however there hasn't been a need for childhood vaccine mandates because a very high voluntary rate. Australia is a little different with our constitution written in 1900 it actually specifies quarantine. I think things will be over in the US relatively soon but slower than many other countries and much more painfully.
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I ask you a question how many US citizens caught covid 19 in hospital which caused their deaths, we know it happened to 1,600 healthcare workers and we also know such events have been documented in Australia , Taiwan, Germany and UK. It's an impossibility it hasn't occured inside the US , yet not a single report of it. Is that a cover-up or is it ok because these matters have never been investigated inside of the US, just count the nursing home deaths yet nothing is done, hopefully many get vaccines now but my suspicion is in many states maybe not. Trump did the biggest cover up by telling his followers it was harmless and doing something about it is a Democrat hoax. Bad as the local Wuhan government was , they are a local government not the leader of a superpower and they got sacked, pretty sure they are not popular, Trump maintains a high level of popularity.
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Well sometimes John is wrong or wrong emphasis when relating possible reasons for various countries success or failure and not holistic enough. He is trying to understand too much too quickly and of course can't read every comment because too many. As one example. The discussion over masks should compare Australia, New Zealand and Taiwan, not UK. I am not saying masks don't help in the case of an out of control outbreak, they do. Taiwan never got to that stage, and nor has all states in Australia plus New Zealand, other than Victoria . So there is no concrete evidence that masks do anything other than slow the spread and possibly cause a low dose or alternatively different initial infection point which maybe reduces the chances of major illness or death. Those countries that contained the virus, even if at a latter date had problems all successful at initial detection of the virus, contact tracing, effective public messaging and draconian enforcement of measures if the population required that. In Australia it was certainly required, Victoria took a little different approach and didn't want to fine anyone and keep stuff open including borders. It's not entirely a coincidence Victoria is having problems in my opinion. So masks are really the last line of defence after all else has failed in my opinion, they can't stop an outbreak. Correlation is not causation, other measures created the success , not masks. If masks were 100% effective healthcare workers would never get infected and they are trained to use proper N95 or P2 masks and still get infected even if at lower rates than the general public.
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@ripvanwinkle4532 there is no travel restrictions and in fact the US model all states has an inbuilt virus spread accelerator. You lockdown business in one state or county with high case rates to encourage people to travel to low infection areas, the virus couldn't ask for anything better and the best example of how to spread a virus with a partial lockdown. No state or national border in the US has hotel quarantine. As far as the partisan arguments variations in weather and densities make a big difference. South Dakota is probably the worst jurisdiction on the planet for killing it's citizens with no big city and about 40% rural population yet 0.18% of population dead, I think they found a way to infect farmers. Lockdown countries with border quarantine include China, Taiwan, Singapore, Vietnam, Australia and New Zealand, other countries maybe falling of the rails but same policies in general South Korea, Japan and Thailand. None of these countries have anywhere near the deaths per capita of continuous lockdown lite countries and on average are actually lockdown less, just restrictions as required. My city Brisbane Australia went into a 3 day lockdown over a weekend without a single case of community transmission, the reason was because of a quarantine breach with a cleaner at a quarantine hotel, I don't think they found any cases and lockdown lite up to the 14 days period need to wear mask. Population highly compliant back to normal in a couple of weeks most likely. About 450 cases of community transmission in a state of about 5,000,000 and 7 deaths I think, so full lockdowns certainly work and partial lockdowns especially the US model ensures spread throughout all major states and territory even Hawaii , Alaska and Puerto Rico that are geographically isolated, done better than almost all mainland states but by international standards given low level of difficulties very poorly.
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@williamhornabrook8081 the AZ vaccine is made all over the world, UK, Belgium, India, Thailand, Australia, China, USA, South Korea and others I believe, if France has the capability which I believe it has the government had to step in and provide funding to a local firm to start making it , also of course the local firm would need to agree to the "at cost " terms etc. from Astrazeneca and Astrazeneca gets nothing until pandemic I guess declared over by WHO to be over. In Australia for example the government paid for expansion of vaccine production capacity by CSL our local company.
To me the EU can't decide if it's a country or group of trading/security partners, so in a way I don't think France is totally to blame as an individual country, but collectively the EU seems to be a country, taking away the rights of it's membership. The open borders policy in the EU seems slightly tougher than what individual Australian states in Australia can and have done to protect themselves. I saw some EU person naming countries that have shut their borders to whatever extent the EU deemed wrong. To travel interstate in Australia if a state has a lot of cases need a pass and an approved reason to travel and if not an emergency like urgent medical care which is generally exempt 2 weeks hotel quarantine for about $2,800 . So the EU and US (including no enforceable interstate restrictions) open border policies have of course ended in the same results. UK and Canada same too but at least finally put in some fairly relaxed measures.
Certainly have sympathy to you as an individual but totally disagree with the choices made on your behalf.
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@france1945 You say you have made it on your own , so I do wonder what you do. The following industries receive government socialist interventions, All manufacturing, All farming, all real estate, all banking, all insurance, most healthcare, consumer staples like Walmart. So it's great you have made it on your own without government support. It would seem you are a Trump socialist, a big fan of a closed market (protectionist) and industry subsidies but not a fan of a decent welfare safety net including healthcare. Australia is less socialist and more free market orientated and most likely we spend less on public health care than the US at the moment noting the absolute failures of the Covid 19 response. If you doubt me see the Economic Freedom Index by Heritage Foundation. Why you want higher taxes or government debt to support corporations versus humans is confusing to me. Look forward to your argument in favor of the limited socialist model of the US versus Australia going head to head. Also why do you subsidise farmers and then use illegal labor, is this to crush farmers in the very countries the workers come from?
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chocolate milk You seem to refuse to look at evidence, the US , UK , Spain and France and other European countries have tried what you say. They have hospitals overflowing and restrictions in place often referred to as lockdown, In Australia and New Zealand plus East Asia and many ASEAN countries everything is open deaths are low , hospitals are functioning normally and people are not dying from secondary causes related to the restrictions and healthcare situation. You are literally advocating the deaths of millions of people in my region given the more than 2,000,000,000 population. So it's not going to happen we will not be following the US lead in this matter. You can say that we should kill members of our population ok that's your opinion not shared by the vast majority, who are ok with 14 days enforced quarantine at the border for people entering, which is the only restriction of great significance.
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A lot of prejudice in this comment thread. Let's look at evidence. "Westerner" is a political term meaning country with majority European and not Eastern Europe usually but everyone when speaking with prejudice has their own definition. Chinese propaganda has a very narrow definition usually just points out problems unique to the US and then infers all of us are the same.
Japan , China , Australia and New Zealand are four of the members of the Western Pacific WHO region, the head office is in Philippines and last time I checked the person in charge was Japanese. What our region did was ignore European WHO region and PAHO Pan-American Health Organization region which thought that keeping borders open and no quarantine was the go, our region thought this wasn't the way to go, we are actually a very diverse WHO region from Pacific Island nations half of ASEAN and East Asia , all different forms of government but very early on 14 days genuine quarantine usually hotel and enforced was adopted and genuine containment measures with outbreaks. Success creates success, the more failures that occurred the worse the problems got, Australia and New Zealand are very highly vaccinated, just as high as Japan and South Korea, your original point is mute. Every country has antivaxxers for various reasons , mostly fear though and if time is taken and the government is trusted high vaccination rates will follow. In Eastern Europe and many in the US in particular people don't trust their governments and vaccinations are lower than they could be. It's actually that simple, nothing to do with culture or race or even form of government.
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@ARE_YOU_SICK_OF_YT_CENSORSHIP I read a significant amount of the link you showed me. Nothing is ever absolute otherwise it could be argued that wheeling around a 500 pound nuclear weapon is the right of every US citizen because they have the right to bear arms. It comes down to is that reasonable, most US citizens but possibly not all would consider the right to bear arms not an absolute right but a basic right meaning to protect your own property on real estate you own the government should not unreasonably restrict you and probably means arms that can fire projectiles such as a fire arm or a bow and arrow or crossbow, not a nuclear device which is a pretty good weapon of defence. If the court overturned the decision made 100 years ago approximately in relation to the Spanish flu then the constitution has been reconsidered but until then quarantine measures are lawful in the US even though no governor or the federal government has had the guts to do that. The right to petition is interesting because in the US case it literally means that anyone can ask the President and or his cabinet which is the unelected government of your country for something and he or his secretaries must consider it. That is technically impossible because with modern technology 50,000,000 people tomorrow could ask President Trump for something or in other words petition him, he's already getting on a bit and by the time he gets 0.1% of the way through he will be dead or no longer president. Would it be reasonable to expect your President to consider 50,000,000 matters? Just remember a couple of hundred years ago the population and then the part of the population that was literate and then the part of that population that would spend a day's pay for a letter to be sent . It was a very exclusive club, now any idiot like me and you with 5 minutes spare can send a question or request to a politician. I sent a message to my Prime Minister maybe 2 months ago, I can't be angry and didn't expect a reply under current circumstances, hope he or staff read it but if they didn't oh well not something I am going to get angry about.
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@broadaccent the 700 that died from the flu , so what? In Australia with covid 19 without restrictions it would be 25,000 dead, with relaxed restrictions in the order of the Swedish model 14,000 dead, we kept it to about 1,000 so far which I think is great. Every country is up sh+t creek without an effective vaccine because even somewhere like New York it's estimated only 20% got infected and it's possible enough time has passed and they can get reinfected and be carriers of the virus, walking biohazards for the vulnerable. That we don't really know maybe reinfection will be really low, the whole thing is no real knowledge , only parameters are known so worst case versus best case. People whinge and complain about 14 days quarantine but it was less than 100 years ago people would spend a month or so on some ship packed in like sardines I expect to come to Australia for £10 and escape Europe. Also I haven't heard Aussies or Kiwis desperately trying to run to one of the infected northern hemisphere countries, fleeing the oppression in Australia. It's quite remarkable sometimes people in places that are constantly locked down with who knows what restriction next week caring about a few Aussies getting locked up or arrested meanwhile even in Victoria the sun is about to shine with freedoms not enjoyed in many countries, just the border restrictions.
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@lacdirk The EU might have provided millions of Vaccines, but Australia has only received 142,000 Pfizer ones so far for a population of 25,000,000 , Israel might be the country you are thinking of with a population of 10,000,000 has certainly received millions of Pfizer vaccines from somewhere. It has been reported back as far as December I think that we expected over 3,000,000 of the Oxford Astrazeneca imported by the end of March, now that number is 0. At the end of March we should start to have locally produced Oxford Astrazeneca. Certainly appreciate the 142,000 doses because it means we can vaccinate hotel quarantine workers and border staff, without that we keep having to lockdown cities because impossible to stop spread completely in a quarantine hotel. I agree the EU and Oxford Astrazeneca are the 2 main Western contributors to the world getting vaccinated fast, just things not going perfect. I would prefer to see more vaccines going through Covax, I just looked up their website and 1,100,000 of Astrazeneca sent via that facility from Europe to Indonesia, so happy my neighbour is getting some and they need all the help they can get with 280,000,000 people. Some sent to Cambodia also.
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@lacdirk That's interesting what you say, I didn't know that the UK stopped any vaccines going the opposite direction which of course isn't good. As far as the scaling up etc. these aren't Astrazeneca , they are whatever local maker, like in Australia it's CSL and it's whoever in each country, Astrazeneca is playing an oversight role for the most part and chosen to do that because the developers of the vaccine in Oxford wouldn't have that capability, originally they wanted to do it but I guess realised it would be too difficult , need a pharmaceutical giant to do it , arranging and overseeing maybe 50 different companies manufacturing it would not be easy and if one stuffs up it will tarnish the rest. I agree that the EU has been the best in regards to allowing exports but also believe the Oxford Astrazeneca vaccine rollout and acceptance anyone can make as equally good. It's unfortunate that things haven't gone as well as anticipated. The EU did say they would play a major roll in production and distribution to the world and have done so as well as can be expected I guess but they could think before they act, instead of blocking exports to Australia they could have contacted Australia apologized and said we can only allow 150,000 to be exported we know you have done a great job in containing the virus and your need is less than ours, we can't politically justify more than that number being exported to you at this time. In other words could have been done in in a much better way which keeps the ban thing out of the picture , because this means even in countries with high cases they must hold back half of the doses for the second jab, which will slow the rollout even where it's needed most. One thing you don't consider is put yourself in an Australian shoes, we have had an international travel ban the entire time , while Europe and the Americas have been living it up with virtually no border restrictions, while this isn't exactly my position it feels like if you made sacrifices and successful you will be punished, stay locked up that's your problem. I have seen comments to that effect and we are ok we get it slowly and pretty sure government is too , it takes pressure off them in a way, but don't openly cut us off.
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@lacdirk what you understand as lockdown is very different to an Australian, European countries had multiple partial ongoing lockdowns , the key word is partial. Open borders for the well to do just travel to wherever isn't locked down, an automatic spreading mechanism like in the US. Which country has universal hotel quarantine for 14 days, up to now exactly 0, the UK has partial 10 days hotel quarantine and everywhere else 10 days voluntary quarantine. How many cities in Europe have been surrounded by police checkpoints to reduce travel in Europe? I haven't heard of any, here it was Melbourne, Perth and Auckland. The island of Ireland has less people than greater Melbourne so they had it easier with a far more rural population but they kept the borders open and interstate workers would be no more than Victorian interstate workers. Malta basically a small island community couldn't even succeed for the same reason open borders without quarantine. Italy didn't even find a single case until February 21 last year, they were completely asleep, that's not luck that's just being useless, Australia detected 15 cases by that time equal to about the number of cases detected in Europe's entirety and same number for the US. You can say lucky we have measures in place and were in a relative sense prepared but not some external forces luck. If you check every single country with more than 5 detected cases by the end of January last year (US maybe exception but relative to real numbers the US detected far less) the not one of them has more than 100 deaths per million. There is basically a 100% correlation with what countries did in the first month and their relative position now. As far as supply chains, of course Australia is no different on an interstate basis, just stop all unnecessary travel. I am in Queensland , actually we did better than New Zealand, New Zealand initially was a bit slow to react it seems , however they made up for it with a proper lockdown and eliminated the virus early on. The cruelest thing is to have a year of partial lockdowns which is what Europe and the US did because it never ends. The countries inside of European WHO region and PAHO (Pan American Health Organization) all have had until recently completely open borders with only 10 days voluntary quarantine (stopping foreign nationals is meaningless , the virus never checks your citizenship). All countries in the Western Pacific WHO region from China down to New Zealand have 14 days mandatory enforced quarantine for any arrivals. I think these individual WHO offices made recommendations that were followed or it's a remarkable coincidence, no one should blame the WHO as a whole it's your regional office that seemed to recommend what occurred in your region and that's run by countries in your region, or it's just a remarkable coincidence. By definition if you can travel across a border you aren't locked down. I understand most ordinary people are in a virtual lockdown , the freedom of travel is for the well off who didn't lose their jobs. Even billionaire in Australia had there interstate travel cut off , there were no exceptions, one billionaire named Clive Palmer took a state government to the high court of Australia over the issue and the court found the state acted reasonably to protect it's citizens. So to travel interstate when outbreaks occur you need first to prove a good reason and then 14 days mandatory enforced hotel quarantine for about $2,800 AUD for a single, double is cheaper because only food extra. Melbourne had equal second toughest lockdown outside of China, comparable to the lockdown in Italy, but Italy just allowed cases to return instead of finishing the job. When Melbourne went into hard lockdown it had more daily cases than Canada in it's entirety, many countries had the opportunity to rid themselves if this horrible virus but didn't finish the job , through choice. Enough of my raving on but maybe gives you some insight of what and why people will think how they think and also a probable reason countries are where they are. A side note Australia, New Zealand and Japan probably have the toughest plant and animal quarantine measures in the world normally, this in it of itself shows readiness, a strange fact is a dog is free to travel between these countries once a dog has spent 14 days in any of those countries, it's a long process to get a dog in involving a six month vaccination process for rabies. Humans can't yet travel between these countries without an extremely good reason.
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@dareptile2653 You seem to be wilfully ignorant. Trump is promoting what he calls operation warp speed, that is a socialist scheme by which the US intervenes in the market to help US companies produce a vaccine and a guaranteed market. So intervention at 2 points and arguably a good socialist idea. The US government pays a very high proportion of money for research in the medical field creating new drugs and other treatments, which every major country tends to do. More socialism. So it can be said that medical research is not free market at all, because governments around the world offer subsidies etc. otherwise those companies leave. The US doesn't even have a free market for agriculture, a socialist scheme was set up over 80 years ago, possibly a world first at the time , called the school lunch program designed to give farmers money and feed kids. Trump boasted about throwing money at farmers , he doesn't believe in the free market. The US regardless of party loves to subsidise small inefficient farms. If you look at government spending to GDP you will see the US spends about the same as Australia, New Zealand and UK. How is it that you consider us all crazy socialists when your government as a headline number spends the same amount. You can argue about which socialist policies are good or bad but right now your president is very happy to subsidise the Covid 19 response including subsidies for care, if you hate your current president for this that's entirely up to you, maybe a country that is in the midst of a civil war is suitable for you because you won't see these socialist programs you so despise. Send a letter to your president and tell him how much you hate his socialist policies and how you want no more medical subsidy and NIH and CDC should be abolished because it goes against your free market principles (which exist nowhere on the planet other than failed states).
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@AndyDufresne11 the virus doesn't care if a government is a democracy like Australia or the UK or a one party dictatorship like China or Venezuela. No country on the planet has reported cases incorrectly except if capacity to do so was not there, or near the beginning when testing wasn't very good in all countries. There are 3 countries on the planet of 5,000,000 or more population that are virus free at the moment, Australia, New Zealand and China ( excluding Taiwan which has an outbreak). There are some small island nations or jurisdictions less than 1,000,000 people that are virus free. Criticise China for other issues if you want but refusing to accept they are virus free is just acting with absolute prejudice, every outbreak that caused a lockdown in China has of course been made public, impossible not to, can't lock down a city without telling them and the word getting out ( great Chinese firewall not that good). Technically you seem to be a Chinese supremacist because what you are suggesting is actually impossible and that is covering up nation wide lockdown or hundreds of 1000s of deaths.
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@stoufer2000 You have to look at issues one by one and consider a country's failings to consider what might be a problem. Australia has the largest foreign born population in the world along with Switzerland apparently and we have a controlled border. New Zealand and Canada not so different. So I am just pointing out one issue that is problematic in the US and UK, this issue means the UK and US will have problems in this area which creates groups who blame the "foreigners" despite the fact both those countries have less foreign immigrants but far more illegal immigrants. Depending what you mean by right wing , if you are talking about anti foreigner and or immigrant sentiment well we are at fairly low risk of that developing in any meaningful way because rule of law exists, that is a controlled border. On trade issues which apparently far left and far right take the same view, that is protectionism, Australia and New Zealand don't have this problem, if you look at the economic freedom index you will see positions 1,2,3 are basically an informal group of free trade promoters Singapore, Australia and New Zealand, we are all trade surplus countries. For any extreme positions to take hold first a problem has to be identified, you can't create extremism from an overall happy population where things are good. So at the moment no risk, this doesn't however mean in the future if things go into decline or for example we abandon a controlled border policy it can't happen, just pointing out we are in a good position now as is New Zealand.
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@jeffwolff1015 I don't think you actually disagree with me however you are singling out one measure as not effective. Without border quarantine or travel restrictions by definition you are not locked down. The US never had travel restrictions and no border quarantine either interstate or international other than voluntary. You do recognize that the US lockdown failed and I agree because contact tracing etc. outside of a few states still hasn't occured. Australia s initial path was that of the US but we diverged significantly as you can see. Our technical capability in the beginning was equal to that of the US. Even though our federal government didn't like it all state borders shut except one. Lockdowns are proportional so if numbers are low enough no need for a hard lockdown, if cases are brought to 0 very quickly like Taiwan, no need for lockdown anymore, they did do a lockdown however closing bars, restaurants take out only and mask wearing. Taiwan had the advantage versus let's say my state Queensland because far fewer incoming cases which might surprise you. So a state of 5,000,000 has had twice as many documented imported cases than Taiwan a population of 25,000,000 so better resourced to deal with the matter. I don't know what the best path might be for the US at this point in time, 300,000 excess deaths already including directly from covid 19 and from secondary effects. The US will not do a hard lockdown and so far looking like no state or Puerto Rico are going to put in travel restrictions with enforced quarantine. New York is apparently going to rely on testing for air arrivals to reduce the incoming cases I guess and maybe that's the best way to go because I don't think any state wants to go covid 19 free. Anyway best of luck , I feel for you and I am happy to be in a covid 19 free state that had maybe 8 weeks hard lockdown in the beginning and fairly low restrictions since other than interstate travel which hopefully comes off in a month or so if all states covid 19 free.
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Don Nwzad using the common meaning of third world country, maybe you are speaking the the US, let's compare side by side.
Life expectancy, US 78 , Australia 83
Government spending on healthcare US 11% Australia 9%
Median adult wealth US $65,000 USD, Australia $180,000 USD (2019 number from credit Suisse)
Homicide rate US 5 per 100,000 Australia 1 per 100,000
Suicide rate US 14 per 100,000 Australia 10 per 100,000 (2019 from memory)
Minimum wage US $7.25 per hour , Australia $15.36 USD per hour.
Australia isn't perfect however it would appear key measures are far in excess of the US for equality and treatment of each other and by the way we are less socialist, check Economic Freedom Index for yourself and see where US and Australia rates.
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@Mis-AdventureCH Lockdowns, contact tracing , effective isolation of positive cases , border quarantine and testing are the reasons why a country has done well or lack there of poorly, I don't know why you talking about treatment protocols. Not sure what treatment has to do with anything regarding spread. You stated you were on 3 task forces, so you got your way it would seem in the jurisdictions you worked for. The Western Pacific WHO region took a different approach to you and your colleagues in either PAHO Pan-American Health Organization or European WHO regions I am guessing. Don't knock what other countries do, we are in a relative sense happy with our performance in our region , you are happy the other regions I mentioned did what you want. Note South Korea is in the same region to Australia, they also did 100,000 covid 19 tests by the end of February 2020, Australia was in second place on that measure per capita with 10,000 tests. The economic performance of South Korea for 2020 was in line with Australia with a 1% GDP decline but run up government debt slightly faster it seems. Anyway you are happy with your region and I am happy with mine as most are with less than 10% of the death toll on a per capita basis compared to regions that took a completely different approach even if you exclude China.
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Western Pacific thanks, it's better to argue as a region because it's more difficult to make excuses of why they are so different based on government type, land type, interconnectivity with other countries etc. truth is none of that has shown to be a barrier, Sicily, Malta, the island of Ireland, Hawaii , Puerto Rico, although they might not be the worst jurisdictions in the world they have certainly demonstrated that being an island is no barrier to poor policy which gives similar results even with low populations to the larger more connected countries, in fact there is only one correlation that can be observed those that tried even if they failed to contain the virus have done way better than those countries that kept travel open with only voluntary quarantine.
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@Dick_Interritus As far as how tax money is spent, it's a case by case basis, so for public healthcare it's far better spent than in the US but from the extremely little I know South Korea and Japan do better than Australia with this. Does the Australian or Queensland government waste money and make big mistakes on occasion, of course , every government does anywhere in the world, it's a matter of how bad and more importantly do they learn from the mistakes and try not to do it again and on average Australia and my state of Queensland is performing pretty well. I am actually taking a one man fight to both my state and federal government's at the moment regarding strata title properties, yes we are as bad possibly worse than many US states, don't know what happened with it but that apartment tower collapse in Florida could happen here and nobody can legally be held responsible. My background is listed investments in 3 countries Australia of course, Malaysia and Thailand, these listed investments are all regulated to a high standard, strata title properties there's no rules at all in my state, gain power you can do whatever you want, no possibility of being sacked or banned for unlawful behaviour because no provision for that. By unlawful behaviour I am referring to listed company standards because of course nothing is unlawful in the QLD strata title industry.
You know you threw me a curved ball, I expected to be fighting you but you didn't fight , you actually discuss things in a normal manner. I know comment sections are dominated by those with strong right or left opinions who tend to be highly aggressive, in some ways I want what cannot be, a lot more people making comments who are somewhere in the centre. One thing about you which tells me you are really a genuine person is you saying my family benefits from some sort of agricultural handouts or subsidies or whatever but you don't think that's good. A hardline partisan never admits anything, that would be losing face.
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@vietnam1978 Australia is technically called a continent now but it's ok to consider it an island. Just pointing out the island status has very little to do with success in dealing with covid 19, look at all the other islands in the world, they were not successful like the south west Pacific, Hawaii literally in the middle of nowhere had problems, Puerto Rico and rest of Caribbean mostly had problems, Malta, Cypress, island of Ireland. Madagascar has done very well however. Vietnam, China Thailand have also done well and not islands, it's the actions that are taken a virus can neither swim or walk across a border. Of course to be fair some poorer countries it was too difficult however they on average if not the Americas outperformed other countries, PAHO and European region of WHO have a lot to answer for in my opinion, the regional offices of the WHO show a remarkable correlation with procedures and success or no success, happy you are in Western Pacific WHO region like us with the 14 days mandatory enforced quarantine for arrivals and agressive actions for any outbreak, we did well.
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I watched the video you linked and it has one serious problem, it had 0 examples of a place with lockdowns and not lockdown lite full of holes, maybe Peru it was too late already without a Chinese style hard lock down. Every jurisdiction or on the case of USA 50 linked jurisdictions all other than arguably Hawaii with no lockdowns. What the video didn't set out to prove but sort of does is a non complete lockdown will have the same result, slowing the spread in a lockdown lite model as all countries mentioned did seem to produce approximately the same result. With the point about masks I agree it won't stop spread it will only slow the pace a little or maybe even a lot, a lot might change the doubling rate from 2 days to 6 days everything else being equal. Keep wearing your mask it reduces your risk but if of course you are surrounded by diseased people your risk goes up. Take care and if you want to compare lockdown countries look at the following Taiwan, South Korea, Japan , Thailand, Malaysia, Australia by state, Vietnam, New Zealand. You will see that there is no consistency in case numbers or pattern, only consistency is if quarantine fails cases go up quickly. In other words if you cherry pick you can sort of provide any anecdotal evidence which may appear to make sense to a non sceptic.
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@benwilson6145 Well point by point, Trump claims he is a Christian and isn't, Morrison is a Christian, so what I am an atheist and couldn't care less. I guess next point relates to the cruise ship well it happened so what? What matters is it was corrected. If he said Rupert Murdoch is his friend again so what, Rupert Murdoch has supported both sides of politics over the years and although he does or used to at least choose people to run his media interests he generally have them free reign and believes the media should represent both sides, if you look at the various Murdoch press in Australia it depends on the publication, the Australian for example although I haven't read it for a while was very balanced actually. Sky News Australia is comparable to Fox News , sometimes not sure which is worse. Qanon thing don't know about that or why he would say that Qanon hates all Australian politicians of both parties and thinks Trump is a world saviour. This would be completely contradictory to Morrison's UN speech where he mentions misinformation being spread about covid 19 , an indirect rebuff to Donald Trump the biggest spreader of misinformation. As far as outbreaks inside of a state it is the State governments fault because they are required to run the response, in the end Australia has succeeded and the Federal government is a major part of that success along with all state leaders, regardless of political party. In the beginning Dan Andrews and Morrison were actually the closest together on the response actually with open borders policy etc. Thank goodness other states ignored those 2 along with NSW because otherwise we would likely look like other countries. Again it's not by political affiliation the federal government is bleeding cash big time so of course wants borders open because that will help, all states except NSW and NT backed down it would seem on the definition of hotspot, now real position seems to be 14 days no cases of community transmission or your state will have travel restrictions except hardline WA won't budge at all yet. The states are scared of ever getting into the Victorian situation so remain cautious and Dan Andrews according to opening plan is now a hardline state having dropped the open border policy. In the end the federal government did assist states even when disagree on policy and of course provided major assistance to Victoria when needed, Trump I hate to say didn't seem to care one bit unless it's a "red state". So Australian leaders are nothing like Trump, Trump is literally like Pauline Hanson , who is good for our democracy because all voices should be heard but should never be and can never be Prime Minister. Australia has offered a far more consistent stimulus and truth is it was too generous and needs to be wound back. The US doesn't have that funds are cut at the moment because Trump wants a $100,000,000 not specified for exact spending and Democrats don't want him having $100 Billion not assigned properly because Trump using executive power can just spend it however he wants with very wide parameters. This is nothing like the Australian situation.
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@Stuart Hawkins Better to look at NSW and Queensland, why look at a country that had an easier task overall than these 2 states. Taiwan people clearly don't travel much because they had only about half the imported cases of Queensland, we also have a more open border than Taiwan. Masks are the final line of defence after all else has failed. Lockdowns done properly do work, contact tracing does work. As far as a sort of endorsement for BLM by Victoria that was poor judgement. Every single jurisdiction other than NSW and ACT had a proper lockdown with varying degrees of a tough approach, a lockdown with an open border isn't a proper lockdown, Taiwan still has a closed border, no one enters without compulsory quarantine I believe, an approach similar to WA who I believe still requires 2 weeks mandatory quarantine for all and that's if they let you in. The failures to properly contact trace in Victoria don't negate the fact that lockdowns work, they just don't work if contact tracing doesn't work and the lockdown allows people to enter without quarantine. You know a person is doing 2 months jail in Queensland for holding 2 gatherings. Have you heard this case? So we do have a precedent in QLD for a like matter. The first breach was a fine, second breach court appearance and jail time. If Victoria had acted in the same manner give that lady a fine and order her to remove all posts and then if she doesn't or turns up to the protest put her in a court room would have been the Queensland approach I expect. You would note people are trying to escape Victoria and in some cases head to states not NSW or in other words more draconian states. NSW stopped the second BLM protest. Victoria it's a little different now because it appears nobody has made an application to protest, so 100% illegal as it always is without an application in any state in Australia or US. Victoria was similar to some US states in its approach. Changing course because of government failures is the correct decision. A tough and effective approach in the beginning would have worked, Victoria only introduced decent fines recently not like draconian QLD who did it a long time ago and is now hosting the AFL. The person doing the jail time relates to an offence in April. NSW has had more failures than QLD but still looks good compared to VIC.
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@counselthyself I am not particularly arguing whether it will or won't be endemic, just that it's a political issue, Western Pacific WHO countries all have 14 days mandatory enforced quarantine, so yes politically on this issue China, Japan , Australia and Papua New Guinea are closely aligned , ignore other geopolitical issues. The US or PAHO Pan-American Health Organization area and European WHO region are closely aligned, So, Brazil, US , France and Mexico are all closely aligned on this issue , no closed borders just 10 days voluntary quarantine will do, internally France is now as strict as even Melbourne was during their crisis or similar at least but I would bet you the airport is still open and voluntary 10 days quarantine is still in place and anyone with money can just go elsewhere in Europe with no lockdown. So I think can go either way , the other WHO health regions are somewhere between the above mentioned regions, politically in the end will China and Australia for example say we must accept the Euro and Pan American disease which is what it now is or will it go the other way and they finally they decide better to not keep the disease. Of course I am Australian I want your regions to tow the line and not accept another new virus becomes equivalent of the flu but probably worse because like you say the mutations that might be far worse than currently, the UK strain isn't the original virus, far more infectious, about half of all quarantine breaches in Australia were this strain despite it not being around for long and it seems a little more deadly especially for younger people, however the good news is the vaccines are still highly effective against it , but a little less so than the original strain.
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@counselthyself The variants won't get into China, Australia, New Zealand, Vietnam and the smaller Pacific nations like Fiji, unfortunately some countries have effectively fallen to the virus, doing well then boom such as Malaysia, Japan Papua New Guinea and Thailand, they were all at 0 or extremely close for a long time but moved towards situations like other countries, time will tell if they make a comeback and go for 0 or they will essentially give up and end up like the "hard hit" countries. You noted you were from Canada, Canada had less cases than Melbourne Victoria Australia when they hit their peak, I was thinking at the time great Canada is going to get rid of this thing , very impressive falls in cases etc. and Victoria Australia will be cut off from the rest of Australia for a very long time. My predictions were completely wrong.
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Matt Darrington Your words are very concerning, as in I am concerned for your personal well being, I did look up that person you mentioned and he is a nutter. He's one of these people who hate success, he literally seems to think we should just go down the infection path like the US and kill 30,000 people to protect protect freedoms. The Australian Prime Minister has an approval rating over 60% . My state government in Queensland Australia had a 70% plus approval rating for it's handling of covid 19 , 6 deaths in a population of 5,000,000 and about 450 cases of community transmission. Australia isn't going to listen to the guy you mentioned , he is just a fringe conspiracy theorist, however got enough support to start a political party which is 500 members in any state to register in that particular state. If Trump had behaved like the Australian Prime Minister and protected lives and not tried to protect corporations and the freedoms of the wealthy he would be the most popular president at least since Reagan but he chose a different path and that's on him. When nothing happens on January 20 don't harm yourself and seek help if needed. Having such a belief can be very harmful when it's proven to be untrue. The US public has demonstrated at this point in time with all the military on the streets and the majority seem completely ok with this, that they would have been capable of a success with covid 19 restrictions required just like Australia if the correct leadership was in place. Trump let the virus spread to every major state and territory without any actions to stop it other than warp speed vaccines which isn't going as well as expected. Best of luck and take care.
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@rhonda6791 About bushfires maybe but the pandemic of course he cares , in the end the commonwealth has supported the states well. Ignore a lot of the noise and look at actions, the military for example assisting with the NSW / QLD border control, probably the federal government doesn't want to but in the end they are there. The main problem with NSW seems to have been Gladys in charge not the CHO, some responses at press conference indicate this, politicians like to keep everything open so NSW remained arrogant and thought they didn't need to lockdown and then lockdown lite allowed the virus to spread all over the state. It's true in Sydney it might have happened anyway like in Melbourne because they did the right thing and locked down quickly but now looks like lost control, however as vaccination rates increase in both states in theory cases should come down at some point, I personally think little of the modelling by Doherty Institute, we have real life situation which will happen no matter what, the modelling doesn't really help other than give an approximate time line of when things might get under control. The other thing is politicians are contradicting themselves about what opening up means, some statements indicate let it rip and other statements indicate in reality it means allow quarantine breeches all the time but jump on them and go back to 0 without any lockdown. Cases only go 2 directions up or down they never remain stable.
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@SGI999 You claim to be a constitutional lawyer and know that all vaccine mandates go against the constitution, well it could come down to one's job type and whether or not it's reasonable. My feeling is health workers have 0 chance of winning their case however others might have a chance in some circumstances as in it's not reasonable. If people are employed by the government then my guess they don't have a good chance. You're complaining about New South Wales government from what I understand and about historical things a few months ago. You also complaining about inflation, housing is the biggest cost in Sydney if you live there, move if you don't like it. There's plenty of food on shelves so you must be well off and complaining about not getting your favourite cut of meat or that if you like beef that's gone up a bit which is great , that means Australia is exporting more at a higher price, unless you want communism or to stop farmers selling to the highest bidder that's how it is for an international commodity. So I don't understand your concerns at all, only that you're scared of taking a vaccine. Omicron is the best thing that could ever happen, it gets things over with quickly and the Chief Health Officer in Queensland said in the most recent press conference that things are looking good and the cases are a massive undercount. He said they were cautious in saying anything up to now because QLD had 0 cases of natural infection so couldn't compare to other jurisdictions, however it's turning out ok, the vaccines are doing their job. NSW has peaked and QLD as a whole is about 2 weeks behind is the estimate. Cases are going down in your state cheer up a bit, doesn't mean it's over but it's probably on the way to being over, schools might be an issue we have to wait and see if the unions want to shut them when there's outbreaks or alternatively teachers required to stay home and quarantine when infected. My feeling is Australia as a whole will have less problems keeping schools open than say a country like the US. Australia having less than 10% of the deaths of European countries and the US is a good thing isn't it and you say vaccines might not be working but clearly they are in stopping severe illness and death. I understand your feelings towards your state government but NSW isn't Australia despite how our PM talks sometimes.
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@Midwit_Madness there have been 3 states transport patients outside of their states , this is just my memory so could be wrong Alabama, Mississippi and might be Arizona. Transported intrastate El Paso and somewhere in Southern California. If you mean local authorities which should not be the main ones running the response it should be the states you are correct in that the majority of large cities are Democrat run, stopping spread in a large city is far more difficult than small cities or rural areas so obviously that will occur. In Australia at the moment all but 2 states are covid 19 free other than imported cases. There is 2 states with less than 10 cases a day total so probably soon country of 25,000,000 covid 19 free , just to pre-empt your next comment Australia is slightly more urbanized than the US we aren't spread throughout the desert. Now Australia's worst state for per capita deaths has done better than the best performing state or major US territory. Some states must be run by Republicans I guess even though you think the virus has gone political, evidence would suggest otherwise. Trump runs the country he is the government due to your system of government he chooses and commands all the secretaries normally called ministers elsewhere, so the people running government are actually unelected. Maybe that system should be looked into, a president is a bit like an elected king. Trump was creating a "better" economy by tax cuts to corporations and running up debt and that's before covid 19. A lot of business was created under Trump's watch through government spending or in other words socialist policies, now due to government failures drug companies etc. have plenty of customers and PPE manufacturers. I will be curious to see the ratings for the economic freedom index by the Heritage Foundation next year. It's is a pretty good guide for how socialist a country is. As a Republican you must be disappointed that the US is low functioning for a limited socialist economy.
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History could suggest the US might have reached a current trajectory of continuous relative decline, both sides of US politics are digging a deeper hole for disfunctional government. Trump's economic boom was government debt funded and never last forever. Social stability in the US is by countries of a similar wealth non existent, homicide rate of 5 or more times per capita than Western European and Wealthy Western Pacific countries. While Biden might be ok in 4 years all the structural problems of the US will still exist so it certainly isn't a given, Americans have an extremely high tolerance for forgiving anything, just like people in a poor corrupt country who think no choice/hope. 4 years people will have forgotten about January 6 event, almost a given there will be riots with killings somewhere during Biden's term and or domestic terrorist attacks. I hope for your sake Trump doesn't come back and both political parties consider moving away from the current non free market capitalist approach and towards limited socialism for those in need and not corporations. Per capita you are a very wealthy country just above Australia on paper but it's poorly distributed due to socialism for the wealthy or in other words corporate subsidies for chosen ones. The median wealth of an adults according to Credit Suisse in 2019 and can be found on wikipedia was about $69,000 for US and $181,000 for Australia, quite a large difference. Also look at Australia versus US on the economic freedom index, which is a reasonable measure of how capitalist a country is , so don't blame capitalism, blame your type of socialism.
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@natus99 The US never had a lockdown in a single state. Free travel for all isn't a lockdown, inform the prison population next time the prison governor declares a lockdown they are free to leave if you think free travel without any quarantine is a lockdown.
China, Queensland, Australia , Western Australia and New Zealand , places that have hard and fast lockdown look at our case numbers, and death numbers and compare them to any US state, we are human like US citizens and we don't have any special immunity. If you want wide ranging proof look at PAHO Pan-American Health Organization region versus Western Pacific WHO region and you will see less than 10% of the deaths per Capita, if that's not proof nothing is.
Don't confuse mitigation designed to not overfill hospitals with a lockdown for elimination purposes which the US never tried.
By the way look at the economic performance of US versus Australia, half the government deficit and twice the economic growth for 2020 for Australia compared to the US and without the 40,000 deaths adjusted for Australia's population.
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@Gasanwu As an Australian I am not too concerned with the goings on, it's rather ironic at the same time we are having a "trade war" we sign RCEP and hope for ratification by the end of next year according to our government website. I suspect some issues are cultural and China over reacts and gets offended about literally anything. In my region or in particular ASEAN countries the US has been non interventionist for a long time, I suspect it's sort of designated as Australia's area of responsibility and we are different to the US, the most obvious example is Australia and New Zealand restored diplomatic relations with Vietnam in 1975, the US it was 1995, it's a bit like the US are poor losers and don't move on. I personally completely disagree with trade sanctions because it inevitably empowers any dictatorship by creating a common enemy and makes the normal people poorer, regimes are almost exclusively overthrown by the middle class not poor people. So keep everyone poor you will ensure the dictatorship survives. As bad as human rights are currently in China it's still a massive improvement on 30 years ago when they started to open to the world in ernest. I do think that a country like Australia should still point out what we consider wrong , it is important but no trade sanctions etc. Australia is very much a free trade country, see our rating on the Economic Freedom Index by Heritage Foundation. China has used this type of behaviour with other countries, can't remember the reason but they were annoyed with South Korea about something so China stopped all tourists going there which of course causes a significant shock. That's the aim here hurt us so we tow the line, however other than possibly the delivery of the message there is no difference in policy between the government and opposition parties and that applies to trade also.
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I think John mixed up his numbers, there weren't even 300,000,000 in Europe 1900. The total world population was estimated to be 1.6 billion in 1900 and I am guessing at least half would have been China and South Asia. I am in Australia and apparently estimates of indigenous population before European arrival vary from 300,000 to 1,000,000. In Australia's case I go for the former mainly because no staple food, no corn, wheat, potato, rice or even coconut, there were things to eat but just consider only 1 commercial crop has originated from an Australian plant , the Macadamia. It's extremely hard to live without modern technology and no high value staple food. Disease did devastate the Americas and Oceania which didn't have the Eurasian diseases.
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@David WP Are those people dead? Then no because if they ended up in hospital in the trial they would have had 100 tests run on them and if they subsequently died their cause of death would be known with a high degree of certainty. It amazes me you seem to care more for the dead than the living. Now that testing is widely available and most covid 19 deaths have occured in the last 6 months the total death numbers will be reasonably accurate. An accuracy rate of plus or minus 20% would be fine , it would change no decisions. You can also compare data with accurate jurisdictions like Australia , Japan , South Korea etc. and see if anything stands out and probably suspected covid 19 deaths in New York and London early on would be over counted because of dealing with people already dead inside a residence or on the street. And so what if a few deaths are counted as suspected covid when it was diabetes or heart disease, the 2 lockdown killers in Australia responsible for about 1,000 excess deaths in a population of 25,000,000. So someone could probably do some adjustments and it will change nothing. I know that the lockdown was responsible for the excess deaths because ABS ( Australian Bureau of Statistics) had a graph for the first 6 months of last year and it clearly showed excess deaths in March/ April then reverting to below expected again. If the UK adjusted just using gross Australian data if the same spike is not apparent in the UK it can only bring the suspected deaths number down 3,000 which is very low and changes nothing, it would be nothing more than an academic exercise.
As far as sky News Australia suggesting we should kill 30,000 people and be like Sweden which they often promoted previously , well although some supporters of that do exist it's not really a popular idea, we don't see people flowing out of Australia to go to partial lockdown countries with mostly freedom to travel, in fact we see those countries with high freedom of international travel reconsidering their position as the body count increases.
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For US cherry pickers and excuse makers please Choose any country you please in the West Pacific ( not US territory) any East Asian or ASEAN or Australasian country and see how successful you are, in fact why not just add them together, West Pacific 2,000,000,000 people and about 1,000,000 cases and less than 100,000 deaths, US population 330,000,000 , many millions of cases and 220,000 dead.
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@99dynasty It really depends where you are, I am in Brisbane, the third largest city and subtropical like Florida. We held onto Covid 0 until 13 December last year and now in our state of 5 million there's 20,000 cases a day or whatever, just like the US the real number will be much larger than recorded number. We had 10 weeks lockdown in 2020 at the beginning and 2 times 2 weeks lockdown in 2021, so here nothing really. Melbourne which is the second biggest and densest city which is about the same latitude but south versus north as New York had massive problems, in part because Victoria took a more relaxed approach to begin with and their contact tracing failed, they had apparently 200 days of genuine lockdown throughout the pandemic. The reason I mention the latitude is it definitely plays a role because the subtropical or tropical climates no big peak whereas the more temperate areas to cold areas all had massive infection peaks, look around the world where the hospitals overwhelmed. Overall though people well supported by government largess if in lockdown and majority including in Melbourne supported the actions. Our deaths are less than 10% of the US so far on a per capita basis and I would suggest that that will remain the case even though of course we getting a lot more deaths, my state has had 3 deaths since our opening, doesn't sound like many but we only had 7 prior to that and of course it's going to accelerate over the next few weeks.
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@evanzhang3801 China imported 28 million tonnes of grain including corn, wheat, barley and sorghum. This is not including soybeans. If we multiply 28,000,000,000 kg by 100 we get 2,800,000,000,000 kg of grain in total for the year using your 1% imports number. This suggests every Chinese person gets 2,000 kg of grain per year, your numbers don't ring true. Maybe 99% self sufficient with rice which got no mention in the article I read. One thing it did say though is China had 4 months stockpile of wheat at the time so it would appear there is a degree of having a strategic reserve, so I think fairer to say China in the event of a war would have serious food problems maybe 6 months in.
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They aren't really, in the initial stages China was reporting Covid 19 only , not cases of Covi sars2. That is actually technically correct and other countries reported all covi sars2 cases as covid 19. They adjusted their numbers to follow the technically incorrect method. As far as them being able to keep numbers low after the authoritarian lock down, much tougher than anywhere else , well Taiwan, South Korea, Vietnam, Thailand , Malaysia Australia ex Victoria, New Zealand have all shown it's possible, the problem is keeping up the vigilance and not making critical errors. In Victoria and therefore Australia about 90% of the country's current cases all come from a quarantine breach involving one family and then failure to act quickly. This has been determined by dna testing of the strains current floating around in Victoria.
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@breakthroughchiropracticcl3526 Well the most compelling evidence is the consistency of approach by WHO region and consistency of outcome up until the last few months with the new more contagious variants. The entire Western Pacific WHO region has mandatory enforced usually hotel quarantine for all international arrivals and as pointed out in another comment SARS affected our region significantly at the time with tourism so some preparedness because of that. 3 of the toughest quarantine countries in the world are in our region , Japan, Australia and New Zealand so we take quarantine very seriously and have systems in place. The most compelling despite all that I just said is actually the fact that countries such as Thailand, Malaysia and Vietnam that were doing as well as others in our general region (Thailand and Malaysia are in South East Asia WHO region which tended to have shorter mandatory quarantine) have completely failed. Sydney is now experiencing great difficulties due to the Delta variant with about 100 cases a day and they have the hardest lockdown in that state excluding the initial lockdown from over a year ago. The other aspect look at the diversity in our WHO region , China, Vietnam, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Australia , New Zealand, The Philippines and Papua New Guinea along with a lot of small Pacific nations. Collectively we have nothing in common except our overall response particularly with borders.
I have raved on for a bit , up to you to consider what I have said.
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@ripvanwinkle4532 Constitutionally it's the same with Australia and the US and the non enforced voluntary quarantine is no different legally speaking than hotel quarantine. Australia's federal government has worked with the states and set the framework , most states were the ones to close borders to other infectious states, the federal government initially didn't want that, however has provided limited support with the military, unarmed but doing things like hotel quarantine, border checkpoints and in a couple of cases provided some medical personal which obviously is very limited. Lockdown lite is the worst of both worlds, destroys business and as many deaths anyway especially with the US policy, but to do absolutely nothing like that state I mentioned it would be even worse, at least poor people can't travel because no means and this probably reduces their deaths a little. If you were in Australia you would most likely be ok with restrictions because they get results, some people still nervous though and think we will fail but that's just a psychological condition without any real basis at this stage. Mentally I think you will find Australian or New Zealanders are doing better than people in US , UK and Canada where it never seems to end and vaccines are pretty much the eggs all in one basket approach, hopefully it works but it's not guaranteed. Anyway take care and personally speaking even it seems bad it would be good for the US to lockdown properly for 12 weeks and most states would be virus free or close to it, I doubt it will ever happen though with currently 0 states willing to close the borders.
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His offer of anyone who spends a billion dollars gets quick approval won't attract investment, US people will be poorer so a shrinking market and if Trump follows through a country that is completely isolationist with trade.
Compare that to my region which I'll call ASEAN plus. Certain ASEAN countries have free trade agreements under the CPTPP Malaysia and Vietnam. While generally these agreements lower tariffs over time those 2 countries plus Australia, New Zealand and Singapore which have the same market size but higher wages. Our market size for all countries mentioned with some having even more is China, South Korea, Japan, all ASEAN countries, UK, Canada, Mexico, Chile and Peru. That's slightly bigger than the US domestic market. These are the sorts of countries multinational manufacturers want to invest in because of the free trading markets available. Certain investors if they wanted a high end manufacturing plant where the government is stable etc. might consider countries like Australia, New Zealand and Singapore.
Another thing that's likely to occur but not certain is general investment flows into the US might reduce because of serious instability. I am sort of referring to indirect investments by pension funds etc. into the US stock market.
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@montoyali You've been listening to Zhao Lijiang too much, the US doesn't force Australia to do anything. China fundamentally misunderstands Australia and is incapable at this point in time of understanding why we have the positions we do, they are used to dealing with poor and or corrupt nations which do to a large extent shut up and do as they are told. Australia is partly to blame too because we don't understand them but the person I mention above makes things impossible, he is doing damage to China's reputation around the world. Australia isn't the only country to effectively have trade sanctions but we have had the most and it's probably highest profile. Australia is an influence of calm in the region especially with Joe Biden at the helm in the US who will listen to Australia amongst others to a far higher degree than Trump who cares for no one. Consider Australian and New Zealand view towards Vietnam, we resumed diplomatic relations in 1975, the US took until 1995. Fundamentally nothing has changed and China choosing to bypass the entire region and say they only talk to the US is really damaging.
On the Covid 19 issue it was decided by region actually or a remarkable coincidence, the Western Pacific region of WHO has 4 countries extremely closely aligned on the matter, China including Taiwan, Vietnam , Australia and New Zealand. I don't know what discussions went on and by which countries but we all agreed to 14 days mandatory enforced quarantine usually in a hotel, PAHO Pan-American Health Organization region and European region of WHO all agreed to 10 days voluntary quarantine and we can see the results is less than 5% deaths per capita in the Western Pacific region of WHO compared to the other 2 regions I mentioned. So behind the scenes you might find even Australia and China in full cooperation on the matter of the response.
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@montoyali I don't know the details but when you say some Senator say something, well so what, they don't represent the government, you have just given an example of how China doesn't understand, we don't listen to our backbenchers why is China. I did look up who you were talking about because I was unaware of it. If a backbencher makes some remark it gets ignored but China thinks it's some big conspiracy. Backbencher is a politician with no position, just elected member nothing more than that. Of course out of 220 people who in total , so maybe 180 backbenchers there will be varying views on things and remarks said, nothing remarkable about that, however it might be remarkable in China if a backbencher was to criticise Xi for example. Even if you don't listen to Zhao directly, I don't either clearly indirectly the info comes through, people share things he posts in the hundreds of millions of users on the social media platforms in China.
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Sheri Pardue Because I am Australian, I don't have any real skin in the game. From my Australian perspective I couldn't support either side and would vote for least worst which would be decided by what I consider most important and whether the other candidate would do a better job. So for me it's all hypothetical. The key societal measures of the US are worse on all accounts basically. If compared to the most similar countries culturally , the 5EYES countries of which Australia is one, the US has lowest life expectancy, highest incarceration rate, highest homicide rate, highest suicide rate, largest wealth inequality, highest government debt to GDP, highest proportion of the population who are illegal immigrants (US and South Africa also, refer to them as undocumented residents) and arguably healthcare inequalities in excess of the other countries which all have universal healthcare, noting Australia probably still spends less as a proportion of GDP on public healthcare than the US. So if I was an American with some general knowledge of the world my position is where do you start. The internet means anyone with an internet connection and basic skills can find out a lot of information in literally minutes.
What is your starting point if you don't mind telling me other than get rid of Trump? which I can certainly understand many people wanting that.
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Same with Australia but a significantly different result, not saying there isn't a problem but it's not what you identified. The UK it's divided into 4 jurisdictions, one for each country within the Kingdom. Within about 2 weeks of it getting serious in Australia last March sometime if my memory is correct , 5 out of 8 states and territories shut their borders with stricter controls in place than ever happened in Europe for goods movement, every company needed to come up with a covid safe plan and have it approved for each state they travel to and from if one of the closed border states as an example. Otherwise only essential travel unless exemption like urgent medical care or special border zone travel permits with certain states. If for essential travel 14 days mandatory enforced hotel quarantine at $2,800 for a single, extra 10 days if refused to get tested at extra cost ( Queenslands rules), the cost could be exempted on compassionate grounds, probably not the extra 10 days if anyone was stupid enough not to be tested. The actions taken by Australian states could have been done by all countries mentioned, but exactly 0 states/provinces/countries (in the case of UK) took these actions, seems your provincial governments are cowardly. It could be due to listening to PAHO your regional office of WHO, all countries in the Western Pacific region of WHO did the same as Australia around the same time, top 40 countries last time I looked were in the countries covered by PAHO and European region of WHO. Maybe it's total coincidence but I think not, your offices of WHO might be to blame but only people from your region running them, WHO as a whole shouldn't be blamed and I would suggest the Western Pacific WHO office has done a good job, behind the scenes outside of politics our diverse group of countries are probably cooperating quite well, China is in that WHO grouping.
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@YY-jv4uu It's simply untrue that in Australia suicides increased last year, they didn't. It's true to say there were more suicides than covid 19 deaths, the suicide rate of the nation is about 13 per 100,000 based on 2019 data so around 3500 suicides per year we are now about a year and a half into the pandemic and there have been over 1,000 covid 19 deaths and around 5,500 suicides assuming the rate was roughly in line with 2019. Obviously the pandemic was never going to stop suicides so I am unsure what your point is, lockdowns do increase diabetes and heart attack deaths mostly I think it is , obviously evidence has shown the hard and fast lockdown jurisdictions like Queensland, Western Australia and New Zealand that this is the most effective because the shortest time being in lockdowns and very few deaths, the cautious approach has proven to be the best, if the entire world followed this the pandemic would be over now. I think you will actually find suicides and homicides increased in 2020 in jurisdictions with long lockdown lite measures like the US, based on 34 cities in the US homicides increased by about 50% which is massive and on top of the 5 times the rate of other wealthy nations, the US is the poster child of how not to do things and the only thing they have been successful at is producing vaccines but not very good at actually getting high vaccination rates.
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@zeroneutral in answer to your queries and assertions, the death numbers will be highly accurate in Taiwan, South Korea, Japan , Thailand, Australia and New Zealand because very low cases means other than at the beginning all suspicious deaths people will be tested and even the strain of the virus will be tested because unless it is through known contact they want to check it's not a new outbreak. The high case rate countries will be less accurate but I would suggest if they are a high income country then at least 95% plus accurate versus the low case countries being 99% on average more accurate, ( a case could always be missed and if deaths are really low percentage terms it could actually be less accurate). The hard lockdown as you put it in Australia is different state by state. Every state has some border restrictions and all but one state Victoria have very relaxed internal restrictions by world standards. I will give the travel restrictions of Queenslanders and it might amaze you. There is a border zone where residents of New South Wales and Queensland can cross the border after going through a Queensland checkpoint but must stay within the zone specified. If someone comes from New South Wales or Victoria and are not exempted like trucks for example or the border zone exemption. To travel into Queensland a Border pass (sort of like a visa) is required and you must declare where you have been for the previous 14 days and if you lie could be 6 months imprisonment. If you have been in Victoria or New South Wales in the last 14 days you need to be quarantined in a government supervised hotel at the cost of $2,800 AUD for a single, extra 10 days plus costs if you refuse to be tested. Other states people can enter without quarantine, however some states are a little tougher than Queensland. To give the most extreme example , to enter Western Australia basically you can't unless you are going there to live permanently or visit a very close relative or something. So sort of like a permanent resident visa I guess. Western Australia has virtually said to it's residents if you leave Western Australia and it isn't for essential travel you might not be permitted re entry. The example is they are being told they can't come to Queensland to see a football game because it's not essential. Western Australia of course has same quarantine procedure but not sure of cost. So travel restrictions in my opinion have gone a little crazy however I do agree with the rights of the states to do it. I think my state is about right with travel restrictions and sort middle of the road by Aussie standards at present.
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@wissembourggirl The entire population of a certain age has to spend 1 year going through re education and it's estimated that 1,000,000 at any given time. I am not saying that's accurate and given these types of issues it's probably larger than the real number. If for arguments sake it's 100,000 only it's still the same thing and doesn't make it good. According to China's official population numbers there are 12,000,000 ethnic Uyghurs in Xingjiang , so 1,000,000 isn't outside the bounds of possibilities because they wouldn't want the program to continue forever and out of the 12,000,000 maybe 4,000,000 or so might be in the target age range that this is occurring to.
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Brit Mk 2 No, British people are just humans, if the government has a relaxed mitigation strategy why would the public take any notice. If they don't care ,why should I? To this day your government allows people to enter the country and go into what is effectively voluntary quarantine and if your quarantine site is in an English household the people you are potentially infecting are not required to quarantine. Look up your governments policy, it's a super relaxed approach of mitigation. It's much more difficult to cross state borders in Australia than it is national borders in Europe. Although unlikely a Victorian Australian can travel to England and undergo the quarantine procedures as I partially outlined by one example. If the Victorian was to travel to Queensland , 14 days mandatory government hotel quarantine with 2 tests to be done during your stay. You will be required to contribute costs for your stay which will be more expensive for one person $2,800 AUD than the £1,000 penalty if you get caught breaking the extremely relaxed quarantine procedures in England. If you refuse to be tested an extra 10 days in quarantine and I suspect more costly. Just a few days ago one person was sentenced to 2 months gaol because they broke the government orders in April on one day by throwing a party and got a $1,600 fine I think it was and then the next day did it again hence the prison sentence. The government is a function or representative of the people and visa versa. Going to school in Queensland hasn't been considered an issue recently, they will just shut an entire school down if it is found a person who tested positive has been there and everyone gets tested and reopen in once people have got the all clear, probably a week or 2 but I'm not sure. I wish you the best of luck and think you should just keep yourself family and friends as safe as you can, your government isn't going to protect you, they only care about hospitals overflowing in my opinion.
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@sailaway8244 You have to realise that out of Australia and NZ there only 2 places with much tougher restrictions than the go to standard Sweden other than travel restrictions, that is Melbourne and Auckland, Aucklands current tougher measures will probably be down graded along with the rest of NZ in a week or 2. Melbourne has fairly tough restrictions at the moment and the rest of Victoria a little less, I think it could be another month or so for Victoria because many cases. It's only 1 jurisdiction but NZ has seen a small decrease in suicides, Australia it has apparently remained flat. If the great depression is anything to go by the by product of the economic downturn is likely to be increased life expectancy. I saw from a commenter but not official that hospitals in NZ are having less cases of food poisoning. In Australia the number of flu cases has dropped dramatically . You must factor in human behaviour which people are not doing and just applying a negative attitude to everything. Having parents stay home with kids has of course helped many families and brought them closer together and it has been said but only anecdotally that child abuse might have increased but actually no evidence at this point in time, only that it's a concern it might happen. So should that be looked into and monitored of course but don't jump the gun and just assume suicides and violence are going to increase. In uncertain times I would think people reduce risky behaviour but that's just my thought, all I have to go off is the years when the economy declined in the US during the great depression life expectancy rose. So I can't see why relatively short term economic decline in it of itself causes any long term harm overall. I don't think we are likely to agree, I think 10,000 dead Australians is a price too high and as far as ok protect them , nowhere other than Singapore has succeeded at this and pretty sure Australia and NZ we couldn't, our societies are not as compliant.
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I don't agree, he's disappointed that we as a country couldn't keep it up , however I think he does to some extent not understand about vaccinating a population with few cases, it slows the process down for various reasons, however that's largely changed now. In simple terms , if the closet covid 19 case of community transmission so far is 2,000km away , pretty hard to make someone think getting a vaccine is urgent, if the local shopkeeper just died last week from covid 19 people are much more willing to make the effort to be vaccinated. There is also the issue of supply because we only manufacture Astrazeneca which took a while to ramp up and not recommended for below 40 unless there's an outbreak. The supply from other countries was a bit slow because countries with no cases move down the queue, that's changed to a large extent now as countries become fully, as in everyone who wants the vaccine so far has got it, vaccinated
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A poor Indian or Indonesian which there are a lot of were in "lockdown" by US standards even before the pandemic, if you only have enough money to survive you aren't traveling all over the place going to bars and restaurants, also if people know they are vulnerable they take precautions. There's no guaranteed expectation that you will get a hospital bed unless you are rich. But more broadly speaking countries that have restrictions have far lower deaths, compare the Western Pacific WHO region that all had 14 days mandatory enforced usually hotel quarantine for entry, less than 10% of the deaths per Capita of PAHO Pan-American Health Organization region and European WHO region both without quarantine just some voluntary scheme. The numbers speak for themselves and the thing about the Western Pacific WHO region is it's extremely diverse, China, Japan, Philippines, Papua New Guinea, Australia as examples we have significantly different cultures, governments etc. but we all did the same thing and have similar results. India and Indonesia are in the South East Asia WHO region and there policies far more strict than Europe or Americas but less strict than the Western Pacific and their deaths and cases are in between.
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@DineshTwanabasu How racist to say all countries spy, China gets caught doing it occasionally as do Australia or US , nobody says China doesn't spy other than Wumaos , that's just absurd. It's true that there is more foreign investment from allied countries and they are more trusted I suppose , so like any relationship China should just take it slow, depending which propaganda is being listened to it took China 60 or 5,000 years to open up to foreign investment and it's still highly restrictive. Any country goes to buy up lots of farmland in any other country will face resistance. China still has plenty of trade and investment barriers so it's a bit hypocritical to say other countries can't do that. Australia wasn't made rich by China that's simply untrue, we have been in the top 10 since federation on measures like per capita wealth and medium income. The fact China is our major buyer at the moment means little, the buyer and seller both benefit, just as the other direction , Australia gets cheap manufactured goods. Australia being a free market economy and having social welfare and the second highest minimum wage in the world currently is what makes Australia what it is. The US per capita wealth is the same to Australia but median wealth only 1 third that of Australia, China is like the US in the respect billionaires matter, more billionaires in China's parliament than Wall Street.
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@colinfraser8317 that would not be possible because official death totals are weeks or maybe a month in arrears. Even that 1800 number is not the standard ONS ( office of national statistics ) number from death certificates which is the normal official way. For highly accurate up to date death numbers regarding covid 19 you need to look at low case jurisdictions like Taiwan, South Korea, Japan , Australia , Singapore and New Zealand. When there are hundreds of deaths and this is prior to death certificates being counted with reasons for death being collated and not accurate. Low case countries can report the small number of cases real time. An overrun hospital the doctors care more for the living , that I would suggest is in part the large number at 6% of covid 19 deaths on the death certificates putting covid 19 only which is impossible I think because the virus causes a symptom that kills the person, people die of something, heart failure , suffocation due to pneumonia, blood clotting etc. But does a doctor care about investigation to have a complete death certificate if 10 patients waiting to get into intensive care as they cart out the dead bodies , probably not , covid 19 is good enough.
Even you die from a gunshot wound the death certificate won't just say gunshot. It will tell the actual cause of death, like blood loss, or lungs filling with fluid, or brain stopping functioning because the bullet went straight into the brain etc. Covid 19 conspiracy theorist would declare that few murders occured because only in let's say 6% of the cases was gunshot listed as the only cause of death. A gunshot victim can die from a heart attack, it's a pretty stressful situation, the day I see someone get off by arguing they had a comorbidity and the gunshot didn't directly cause the death I will eat my words.
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