Comments by "GWTPict GWTPict" (@gwtpictgwtpict4214) on "Drachinifel"
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On the legendary naval dressing down question, thirty plus years ago I was doing a guided tour of HMS Victory. The bloke leading the tour was ex Royal Navy. For those who don't know, on HMS Victory's quarterdeck there is a a highly polished brass plaque mounted on a piece of wood attached to the deck. The plaque simply reads "Here Nelson fell" along with the date of the Battle of Trafalgar.
Having confirmed that there were no French in the tour group the ex RN bloke related the following story. A few years before a fellow tour guide, again ex RN, was leading a tour and getting to the plaque was explaining what it was when a French exchange student on the tour decided to jump onto the plaque, thrust a fist into the air and shout "Vive la France!". The tour guide, a burly ex CPO punched him in the face knocking him to the deck. Much hilarity ensued, apparently you're not supposed to punch the tourists.
Ex CPO finds himself up in front of the commander RN dockyard Portsmouth. As Drach said, details of this sort of thing are generally not recorded but the gist of it was the ex CPO was given a thorough bollocking, being an ex CPO he just stood there and took it. Bollocking delivered the commander RN dockyard Portsmouth stood up and shook the tour guides hand while mumbling about the finest traditions of the Royal Navy. As the story goes the tour guide didn't have to pay for a pint in the pubs around Portsmouth dockyard for several years.
I have no idea how true this story is, the RN have a long reputation of spinning yarns, but I think I can believe it :)
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You're missing the point, it's about tradition, history and living up to the name of the ship, regiment or squadron you serve under.
An example, the 59th Regiment of Foot was raised in 1775, renamed the 57th a year later. It served in the American Revolutionary War fighting at Charlestown in 1776 and Halifax in 1783. It became known as The "Diehards" after the Battle of Albuera on the 16th May 1811 during the Peninsular war. Albuera was a particularly bloody battle that the British should probably have lost, but didn't The nickname "Diehards" comes from the commanding officer at Albuera, Colonel Inglis. His horse had been shot from underneath him and he was later seriously wounded by canister shot in the chest and neck, things were going badly but he refused to be carried off the field, instead shouting "Die hard the 57th, die hard!". Well they did, of the 647 officers and men who took the field 428 were killed or wounded.
Marshall Soult, in command of the French forces on that day later said, "There is no beating these troops, in spite of their generals. I always thought they were bad soldiers, now I am sure of it. I had turned their right, pierced their centre and everywhere victory was mine—but they did not know how to run!"
The 57th also fought in the Crimean war, the Indian Rebellion and various other minor conflicts.
In 1881 The 57th merged with the 77th Regiment of Foot becoming the Middlesex Regiment (Duke of Cambridge's Own). Under that name they fought through WWI and WWII including landing in Normandy. The regimental nickname was still the "Diehards".
As the British army has shrunk over the years regiments have been amalgamated on many occasions,
The battle honours of the 57th sit with the Princess of Wales Royal Regiment (PWRR). Serving in Afghanistan in 2004 members of that regiment won a Victoria Cross (Pte Johnson Beharry), two Distinguished Service Orders, ten Military Crosses and seventeen Mentions in Despatches.
The point I'm making is that, at least in the UK, it is not "lame" to retain the battle honours of your forebears, rather it gives you a history to live up to.
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@michaelblaszkiewicz7283 I understand that your original post was a joke, if a little weak. I just thought I'd stand up up for the poor old Swordfish, after all it was, by its service record, a very effective and versatile aircraft. You then suggested the Devastator would have performed better and that the Swordfish was just "lucky". I disagreed. Then you brought Midway into it(WTF?) I pointed out that the torpedo bombers present didn't perform any better than the Swordfish would have.
To your final post, was the Avenger a better aircraft? Yes. But then you spoil it all by insisting that calling the Swordfish a a strike aircraft was a joke. Look at its service record Michael, the Swordfish may have been many things, old, slow, freezing cold to fly and vulnerable to fighters but it killed ships up to battleship size, sank multiple U-boats, served as a gunnery spotter, defended Atlantic convoys in weather in which no other serving aircraft could fly, the list could go on. Face it Michael, the poor old stringbag was not a joke.
Oh, and regarding canvas, one advantage was that it didn't detonate 20mm cannon shells, they just went straight through, left a hole that was easy to repair. Regarding wood, look at the de Havilland Mosquito.
Anyway, I'm off to bed now, night night :-)
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@HK417A1 Any weapon design is a compromise, in a torpedo you want range, speed and explosive bang. However, you also have to design your torpedo to fit your launch system and that will limit its dimensions including weight. So your design spec will say 21" torpedo, maximum length so much, maximum weight so much. Those are your design parameters into which you have to fit the required range, speed and explosive goodness. The explosive weight tells you how much weight is left over for propulsion, fuel, guidance systems etc. So warhead weight is a relevant parameter. You can consider TNT as a baseline explosive as it was so commonly used in WWII torpedoes, however you have to allow for the other explosives used hence Drach gives warhead weight and then TNT equivalent. Torpex is the easiest example, your Mk1 torpedo is rocking a chunky 600lb TNT warhead. Your Mk1* replaces TNT with Torpex and without changing anything else you now have effectively a 900lb TNT warhead but without the weight penalty.
Remember, at the end of the day Drach is an engineer, this stuff matters to him :-)
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We've always been batshit crazy, we just hide it well under a smooth, suave, tea drinking veneer of respectability. It's how we got away with the Empire for so long.
For a modern example of British batshit craziness I give you cheese rolling. Been going on for hundreds of years, generally happens annually though modern Health & safety types do try and stop it now and then. Held at Coopers Hill in Gloucester which is nice and steep. A 7 to 10lb round of Double Gloucester cheese is released down the hill with a one second head start before the competitors can chase it. In theory you can win by catching the cheese, though as it can reach 70mph that doesn't happen, so the winner is the first person to cross the finishing line after the cheese. Prize is the cheese. Note, the hill is too steep to run down, you will fall over and finish your run bouncing arse over tit down the hill.
Much beer will be drunk post the cheese rolling, possibly a fair amount before, including the competitors. Bruises, contusions and friction burns are expected, broken bones, concussions etc also happen. Don't think anyone has actually died though.
To finish, a quote from the Wikipedia article and a link,
'Canadian competitor Delaney Irving won the ladies race in 2023, despite finishing unconscious, and only learning of her victory in the medical enclosure.'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdKRx30s6sk
Batshit crazy enough for you? 🙂
ETA youtube link.
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@adamalton2436 Absolutely, it's called trial and error. Might not be the most efficient method but eventually you'll get there. Look at cannon, in Western Europe you'll see them showing up in the 14th century as siege weapons to bring down castle walls. Encircle the castle, bring up the guns, emplace them. Load gun with gunpowder (having thoroughly stirred it first), then a huge iron bolt, then pack the muzzle with clay to confine the blast. Wait for the clay to dry off, then fire the gun. BOOM. Rate of fire measured in rounds per day. A few centuries later and we had cannon you could tow into battle behind horses, deploy, and have rates of fire you could measure in rounds per hour, with the added benefit that they were unlikely to blow up in your face. Progress :-)
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As I understand it, for a 32 pdr 12 men would be assigned per pair of opposite guns, one port, one starboard. As the video showed, in terms of loading and firing you could serve a gun with just three crew, the gun captain and the two lads clearing it and feeding it at the front. However, once it's loaded you need to run it out before you fire it, hence some additional brawny lads come in handy. A 32 pdr weighs around 3 tons.
If the ship is engaged on one side only then some of your 12 crew could be off forming a boarding party, fire fighting, damage control etc. If you're engaged on both sides then you've 6 men per gun, so the 3 who know what they're doing plus another 3 for muscle.
By this point you're taking casualties, guns are being dismounted, significant emotional events* are being experienced. Hopefully the junior lieutenant, midshipman or PO in charge of the gun deck is moving his available bodies between functioning guns to keep the maximum possible number in action**.
* With thanks to The Chieftain for the phrase. Good YT channel if you like tanks.
** Defence of Outpost Snipe, 26/27 October 1942. Obviously not a Naval engagement but the point stands, NCO gunner putting rounds down range while another NCO and a Lieutenant fed his gun.
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@bkjeong4302 Yes, but if you have an even halfway decent AAA suite those low, slow, straight flying torpedo bombers are going to have a really hard day. Now, if you're going against merchant ships, maybe in the Med? Or ships at anchor, I'll mention the Med again because Taranto, you're good. At Midway the USN torpedo bombers were basically target practice, the AAA suite plus the CAP, the dive bombers did the damage. Now, I'll admit, at Midway the five carriers lost were all finished off by torpedoes. For Japanese losses they were launched by warships from their own side because they were unrecovarable. For the USA it was a Japanese submarine that put USS Yorktown down, taking the destroyer USS Hammann with her.
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