Comments by "Vitaly L" (@vitalyl1327) on "Rust Absolutely Positively Sucks" video.

I doubt an experience of a java monkey amounts to anything valuable though...
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Sounds like a hideous idea for a sadistic reality show.
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@xelspeth Both C and Java are eager, imperative, structural, both having statements and expressions, both having very primitive (and very similar) type systems. Nothing fundamentally different. Compare that to, say, a lazy functional language, or to a total language, or even the eager languages of the ML family, or meta-languages with AST macros, or Prolog. That'd be worlds apart. But C and Java are almost the same on this scale.
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@YMAS11 Languages can be classified on many dimensions, and choice of dimensions that matter is somewhat arbitrary. One dimension is level of abstraction, it's the most well known classification but most people still get it wrong. On this axis, languages go from low level to high level, where low level is their operational semantics being close to some perceived view of the real hardware (talking about the real hardware makes no sense due to its massive complexity, so it's some abstract mental model, some RISC-y machine code). From this extreme languages go to higher levels, with operational semantics being more and more steps removed from small step semantics of the machine code. C, Java, Python - they are all very close to the low level side of this axis, as they have very explicit control flow, mostly explicit memory handling, explicit order of execution, and all use the same structural programming for expressing this low level control flow. The higher you go on the levels of abstraction ladder, the less obvious control flow is, and it can become entirely undefined for very high level languages. They can have no tools for explicit control flow whatsoever. SQL or Datalog can be common examples of such. Some languages allow to cheat and place themselves anywhere arbitrarily on this abstraction level axis. It's the meta-languages, with proper macro metaprogramming capabilities that allow you to add constructs with any, arbitrarily complex semantics to the language, turn the host language into any other language you can imagine. Rust belongs to this group - as it provides procedural macros that can turn the simple low-level Rust into, say, a very high level, optimised SQL. Now, there are many other dimensions for classification, type systems among the most common ones. All of the common low level languages either use a very simple ad hoc type propagation and very loosely defined subtyping, or have entirely dynamic typing. More complex type systems - including Hindley-Milner typing of the ML family and Miranda-Haskell-etc., Sytem F typing, dependent typing of Agda, Coq and alike - they all don't fit well into the low level, explicit control flow, structural programming model of the common languages. Another dimension, which I decline to consider important, is the typical way the language is implemented. Natively compiled, natively compiled but with a complex runtime and managed memory, JIT-compiled with some intermediate representation (such as CLR or JVM), bytecode-interpreted such as Python or Perl - all such details are immaterial and it was shown many times how easily languages can be implemented on top of any of these models regardless of the other qualities of the language - see QuakeC, PyPy, multiple Java AOT implementations, etc. As for algotrading - well, it exists, it makes money, it pays really well... What else can I say? I'm also grateful to it for driving higher end FPGA prices down due to growing demand.
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@An7Hoang he did program C, a language not that different from Java. This guy have no experience whatsoever, he knows just one language (considering C and Java almost the same), no experience in understanding semantics fudamentally different from what he already know. His opinion is quite worseless.
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@xelspeth of course Python is not too different from Java and C. Another low level imperative eager language. Looks like it's the only kind of languages code monkeys can comprehend.
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@sumansaha295 sorry, mate, I'm afraid it's you who have no idea what you're talking about. C and Java may seem different only to those who don't know anything else. Both are eager-order imperative languages, both relatively low level. Rust, on the other hand, was drawing quite heavily on the ML family, which is, in turn, worlds apart from the likes of C and Java.
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@RotatingBuffalo as for macros in C, no, they're not actual macros, and they're not really part of the language, preprocessor in C was always very separate thing. Compare that to procedural macros in Rust, or to C++ templates.
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@Aethenthebored they are similar in all possible ways, and this is exactly why code monkeys have no problems moving between those languages, as tbey are all one language in different dressings. And when they are confronted with an actually different language, aa with the post we discuss here, they have hilarious meltdowns.
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@HrHaakon lol, then Excel "macros" are macros too. But still they are not the macros in a PLT sense, just like C "macros" are not called macros in PLT. Anyway, in a practical sense, anyone with an experience with C "macros" have no idea what real macros are and how to use them, and therefore is going to be baffled by Rust procedural macros, or by Common Lisp macros, or by R5RS hygienic macros, or by C++ template system.
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@theheadpriest look, I understand that PLT is hard and that code monkeys do not even study it in the first place, but yes, imperative eager languages with separate statements are pretty much all the same. You're confused because you don't know of any other types of languages to begin with. When you look from a perspective of Agda or even Prolog, all the statement-based languages are indeed the same.
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Oh, a ranting Java monkey - that's funny. That guy never really programmed, and suddenly bumped into a real language, which immediately showed him how much out of his depth is is, that all 30 years of his experience was 1 year repeated over and over... Sad, really. Funny, but sad.
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@RotatingBuffalo and I find it hilarious that you think that there are macros in C.
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@RotatingBuffalo Now, I said "F*", not "F#", but you did not notice. "F*" is miles away from the run of the mill Hindley-Millner that F# does and Rust tries to do. And let me remind you that we're talking about Rust here. Fairly mainstream language, with an ML-inspired type system, procedural macros, region analysis and a lot of other features from the "ivory tower" languages that you believe for no good reason to be impractical. C and Java have very, very similar use cases. I worked on a high-frequency trading system that was largely written in Java. Eating C cake, evidently. I also worked on pure C HFT systems, ones written in C++, ones with large parts implemented in HDLs. There was no real difference in what C and Java did in those scenarios. Just plain, predictable imperative languages with more or less low level control of the memory layout. Nothing fancy. Everything very much the same. Not to mention java running on microcontrollers or even NFC chips (already mentioned JavaCard). For all practical purposes, Java is not too far from C. Yes, GC can and will cause troubles, yes, you need to code in a certain way for real-time, but same applies to C, your malloc() and free() are also not allowed.
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@atiedebee1020 code monkeys are hilarious. Yes, it means exactly that, that Java and C are very much alike, to a degree that an ignorant code monkey can safely switch between thrm without suffering from a severely hurt ego. But when a code monkey is confronted with a significantly different language, such as Rust, they have meltdowns like the one we witnessed in the OP. Ia not it a good measure of similarity and difference to you? Have you ever implemented compilers for any of the languages from this fsmily? If you did, you'd know how similar they are, even the dynamic abominations like Python.
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@HrHaakon it is not HM in a slightest, it is a simple linear type propagation. It does not unify type equations. And, no, external preprocrssors are no macros.
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@lucass8119 objects are not big deal at all (see GLib / gtk+) - just some puny syntax sugar for implicit v-tables. Reference types also not a big deal, as it's a subset of pointers (sans arithmetic). Generics - yes, the only mildly notable difference between C and Java, but still not warranting putting Java into a different class of languages. And yes, I'm piling the dynamically typed eager imperative languages into the same group too.
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@user-oe4id9eu4v since youtube removes comments with links, I recommend to look up "real-time java" to see some allocation-free memory management techniques employed there. As for preprocessor - who cares if it's a part of a language spec, if it's a separate pass that have no knowledge of the underlying language whatsoever? And it can be used with other languages easily (e.g., I worked on a project where a C preprocessor was used on a Verilog code base extensively).
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@5dollasubwayfootlong you evidently missed prettu much all of PLT education if you don't know the difference between the eager and lazy order. I'd recommend you to avoid embarrassing yourself and to stay away from topics that are so far beyond your comprehension. Learn some computer science first, then come back to discuss what is low level and what is not.
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@5dollasubwayfootlong it does exist, while it does not have a right to do so. Preprocessors are abominable and should have never existed.
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@pcos2401 my "issue" is a lack of tolerance for stupidity and incompetence. Hardly an issue.
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@htspencer9084 It is a warranted arrogance. Facts matter. Truth matter. Feelings of those scolded for perverting the facts do not matter.
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@tiranito2834 one year of experience repeated 30 times is still one year of experience.
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@tiranito2834 kiddo, once again, you have no faintest idea of what you're babbling about. Ever tried specifying formal operational semantics for C and Java? You'll see very little difference between these two. If a presence of garbage collector makes.a language "high level" for you, you simply don't know anything at all about programming languages.
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@user-oe4id9eu4v another one. Yes, they are low level - in terms of a level of abstraction, not in how close they are to hardware (yet, both are pretty close in comparison to the real high-level languages). You learned something new today.
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@user-oe4id9eu4v and? so what? Ever seen JavaCard?
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@La0bouchere on a semantics landscape they are indeed very close together, as it is all that matters. Someone who only know C and Java knows only one kind of languages and will have hard time understanding ML or APL.
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@RotatingBuffalo so? You really see these tiny differences as "fundamental"? Funny. Now compare both C and Java type systems to, say, a Hindley-Milner. Or to F*.
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@myname2462 aren't you a puny ignorant code monkey? Yes you are indeed.
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@atiedebee1020 we are talking about Rust here, which was very heavily influenced by ML. And by "no one ever heard of" you just exposed yourself as an ignorant code monkey, who really should not have opinions on languages.
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@ardnys35 lol, you're dim, aren't you? Do you understand what semantics is? Have you seen many languages outside of the typical code monkey selection? And before you dare to bark that those languages are not practical, you're just ignorant and have no right to have opinions on topics above your cognitive capacity. Don't you dare to claim that, say, APL is not practical, when a lot of quant analysts in finance use its derivatives (like K) all the time. And whe you compare K to C amd C to Python or Java, you'll see that C, Python and Java are just one language with tiny immaterial differences, while K is worlds apart from them all. This whole thread is infested with primitive ignorant code monkeys with hurt egos, who just got confronted with the fact they know absolutely nothing about the languages. So funny when code monkeys get defensive and protect their ignorance.
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@HrHaakon nope. They are absolutely external to the language. Can be (and often are) implemented as a separate pass that knows nothing about the underlying language. It is very misleading to call this crap 'macros".
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@HrHaakon not just some reason, but a very good reason.
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@МаркЧолак there are no "elite" developers you dummy. There are just adequate engineers, and there are utter trash engineers. Those who believe Javascript is a pinnacle of human civilisation are trash engineers, obviously. Any problems with that? And, good luck with your pitiful career which is heading to an abrupt end with all the CRUD monkeys being replaced by a glorified Markov chain that'll do a much better job than you all.
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@5dollasubwayfootlong you're a funny java monkey. Funny and pathetic. I worked once on a single code baee (one very specialised and very expensive CAD) that contained code in Fortran, PL/I, C#, Perl, Tcl and half a dozen of own DSLs, all acccumulated for over 30 years. I work on code bases that contain a lot of K, C++ and System Verilog with a good amount of Haskell added. You know, monkey, the kind of jobs that pay really well, especially the HFT jobs. There is always a lot of languages involved. But you, patbetitc monkey, would not know, nobody would ever let you anywhere close to such code bases. All you can hope for is some boring low paid CRUD trash.
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@MrR8686 what a sad fate, to be employed as a java monkey. All java jobs are boring corporate drudgery, and pay is crappy.
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@csehszlovakze wtf are you babbling about, dummy? Did not I say that python is a pile of crap?
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@In3F another code monkey with an overblown ego? You're funny
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@tiranito2834 you know absolutely nothing of PLT, do you? Java is absolutely low level. It is an eager imperative language wirh an always explicit control flow. It makes it an even lower level langiage semantically than C++, which provides a lot of features for a very implicit control flow. Go learn some other languages, other than the usual trash amateurs learn. There is a huge world beyond all those dumb C, Java, C++, Go, Python, Javascript and all other very similar crap. As someone wbo implemented some interpreters and conlilers you should also know how blurred the line between these two is.
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@tiranito2834 given that GC is the biggest difference between C and Java semantics, it makes you even more delusional than I originally thought. Look, code monkey, I understand you're butthurt and do not like being exposed to the true depths of your ignorance, but you'll have to deal with this fact eventually. Better sooner than later.
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@tiranito2834 30 years.of.experience.with one single.language is not going to add up to 30 years of accumulated knowledge. You're truly pathetic, code monkey, and your butthurt is delightful.
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@tiranito2834 entertain the audience, code monkey. Provide your formal proof that Java is a "high-level" language. Will be hilarious. I am sure you're a product of some bootcamp, or a college dropout at most.
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@logicaestrex2278 lol, kiddo, there is no point im teaching this kind of trash, they are hopeless and will never be able to learn. But mocking them is important, for the innocent bystanders to see the importance of learning and horrors of becoming ignorant and worthless.
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@baejisoozy another ignoramus who never studied PLT, yet dares to have opinions? Try to define in your own words, what's the difference between C and Java, and you'll end up with two formal semantics that are 90% overlapping. If you think that GC or a presence of explicit pointer arithmetic are really important, think again.
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@logicaestrex2278 and yet you did exactly this, little piggy. You managed to repeat the same.year of experience a few time, without acquiring any knowledge at.all. Becoming a clueless monkey in the process.
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@ and yet this is exactly what you did, you repeated the same year of experience a few times, without getting any knowledge at all.
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@baejisoozy and this monkey dares to think of itself as a programmer. You're so pathetic.
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