Youtube comments of I Hate Unicorns (@ihateunicorns867).
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It's a shame that this channel has released this video. Daniel states that he is not giving his opinion, yet simply by making this video he is giving credence and publicity to transphobic propaganda. He says "I'm just bringing this issue to your attention". By simply referring to it as an issue, he acknowledges that he views it as an issue. This attitude will not age well. We saw the same thing happen before with gay people ... 'would you want a gay man using the same bathroom as your young son?' etc. The homophobia in that is now obvious, but at the time the zeitgeist was to associate homosexuality with sexual deviance. People didn't believe in homosexuality in the way that people in the comments here don't seem to believe in gender dysphoria.
The language here needs to change. Trans people don't choose their gender identity, they just are the gender they are. Some women are born with biologically male bodies, but they are still women. Some men are sexually attracted to other men, but they are still men. It seems ridiculous to some people because it challenges how people have been taught and conditioned to understand gender. But things change. Our scientific knowledge advances. The power of everyone's personal status quo is strong, but objectively speaking, it's an arbitrary position. Human beings tend to think that things that happened prior to their life were good things (ending slavery, women getting the vote etc), and everything that starts to change during their lifetime is 'going too far'. And most people tend to not really change their minds.
To quote Max Planck: "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."
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***** Now I'm in a difficult position. I really don't want to get into a YouTube comments debate about feminism. It'll go nowhere constructive and I've heard it all 100 times before. But on the other hand, what you've said is so easy to explain/answer.
This is all very basic-level stuff though. Some things take more study to understand and I probably can't easily explain them in a comment of this length.
Here goes:
1. No, it's a statement based on masses of evidence and countless studies by sociologists. It's not a controversial view, it's a view accepted by mainstream sociology. To argue that it wasn't the case would be a bold claim.
2. I'm not claiming that there are no biological differences between men and women — this is a common misconception/misrepresentation of feminist theory used by antifeminists. Our notions of gender roles are a mix of socially constructed and biological differences between men and women. Socially constructed such as: trousers/skirts, short hair/long hair, pink/blue etc. Biological being: logical intelligence/emotional intelligence, physically strong/physically weaker etc. However, the biological aspects are only general trends and men and women often don't conform. eg. You get strong, athletic women and you get emotionally intelligent, sensitive men. The part feminists have a problem with is the application of gender roles. eg: girls being discouraged from playing with "boys toys" and encouraged to play with dolls and make-up sets, boys being told that "boys don't cry" … "man up" etc. Feminists don't want a physically strong woman to feel she's less of a woman because of her strength.
3. This one is going to annoy you. I apologise, but I don't know how to say it in a nicer way. Firstly, you don't understand what intersectional feminism is. Secondly, you are falling into the classic trap of viewing your own culture as "the right balance" and everything from less-developed nations/past times as "needing progressive ideas" and anything that moves your own culture on as "going too far". This has always been a common psychological trait throughout history. It's what people thought when enslaving Black people was considered acceptable and normal.
4. Yes, you can find people who supported Solanas, but you are still anomaly hunting. Attempted murder is not part of feminist ideology. Sommers calls herself a feminist, but I feel she does this in a facetious way to make a point. She does not want to change women's position in society. She seems happy with things as they are and spends her time trying to discredit feminist theory. Believing in equality makes you egalitarian, not feminist. A feminist recognises that the way to achieve gender equality is to elevate women's position in society.
5. Being male makes you privileged in terms of gender, but there are many forms of privilege: ethnicity, gender, wealth, sexuality, disability etc. Each has their own problems. People get defensive when they are called privileged, but it doesn't mean you have it easy. It means you have it easier than someone else in exactly the same position as you, but who is female.
6. Many feminists are guilty of ignoring their own privilege. You are very right on that. This is what the notion of intersectional feminism is trying to counteract.
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***** Well, I have two degrees in it so I'm fairly invested in the concept. Feminism is really an umbrella term for a wide spectrum of beliefs, but they are united by the desire to change women's position in society.
I really do think that most adversity to feminist discourse by people who truly believe that men and women should be equal comes through misunderstanding. Although, I do think a lot of the time, feminists are to blame for this. Anger at injustice seems to take over from persuasive techniques a little too often for my tastes (but then I'm in a position of privilege being male, and have the luxury of being to walk away should I wish). I can see how people could be outraged if they read those radical 'think' pieces and take them literally. Due to the difficultly people face in being objective about their own culture, people write 'think' pieces with radical content. These pieces may call for the death of all white men or to round up men and put them in camps etc. These are not meant to be taken literally — no-one actually wants this. They are a hypothetical scenarios designed to take people out of their comfort zone and allow them to view a situation from a different perspective and therefore gain insight they might not otherwise gain. Unfortunately, the people who really need to benefit from these are the ones that will take it literally and make a YouTube video about the 'crazy feminists'. So, while I understand the reason for these things' existence, I'm not sure I can completely get on board with them.
If you were referring to something else, then I apologise for rambling.
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"Now, I don't know anything about zoology, biology, geology, geography, marine biology, cryptozoology, evolutionary theory, evolutionary biology, meteorology, limnology, history, herpetology, palaeontology or archaeology. But I think…"
Stewart Lee
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My mother clearly has BPD too (in that she is an absolute text book case), but constantly refused to acknowledge that anything was wrong. Unfortunately, my sister and I don't see our mother any more. My sister has been left with sever PTSD and I have various issues from the abuse we were subjected to as children.
I don't love my mum. I forced myself to stop as I couldn't deal with the many times she would tell me as a child that she was going to kill herself. As a kid, I couldn't stop her from taking pills, driving off in the car saying she was going to crash it etc. So I had to make myself stop caring as I couldn't bear it.
As we got older, her BPD got more and more severe. In the end, we literally couldn't take the constant unpredictable behaviour and delusional accusations made against us so we had to run away. I challenged her to deal with her mental health and told her I would love and support her through it, but she reacted very badly. She denied all the abuse from our childhood, and convinced the rest of our family that we were doing a load of awful stuff to her that (which we obviously weren't). Our whole family disowned us and we were subjected to a barrage of hate for "making false accusations".
My sister was homeless for a while, but now has accommodation provided to her. I manage to be able to work, but have severe anxiety. I miss my mum sometimes, or at least I grieve for what I want her to be.
It's not fun is it? I know how you feel.
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+Bad Man
Okay, This is going to be rambly and go off at tangents and not really form any kind of cohesive structure. Sorry. Any areas you want me to expand on, please ask and I'll do my best.
Top, top line:
I find the term Egalitarianism to be of very little use when you are trying to establish what someone believes. Speaking purely from a western perspective, pretty much all people believe that all people should be equal. The bigger question for me is recognising the problems that are getting in the way of forming an egalitarian society (or as near to it as we can get). For me, Feminism is recognising that women's position in society needs to be advanced to achieve equality for gender (again, for me. Many different strands of feminism. Some don't want to be advanced in a society with the current patriarchal framework… long story. Lots of theory. I've never met a feminist who wants superiority over men, but I'm sure they exist somewhere in the same way there are socialists who want the monarchy and the rich executed, but that doesn't really define what socialism is). But this is all just semantics really.
Gender inequality is so, so vast and so, so complex. I'm not sure it helps dividing it up into problems that negatively affect men and problems that negatively affect women. In a way it's lots of different problems but it's also one big problem. Men are in a more powerful position than women and this causes a lot of problems (for women and for men, but women suffer a lot more — although it's not a sympathy competition. It's a question of identifying what's wrong and fixing it). The majority of discrimination men face based on their gender is a fallout from patriarchy. If you want to fix this, fix it for women and the male problems will also be fixed.
It's very difficult for men to understand what it's like being a woman and vice verser. Empathy is hard. And when you are able to dip in and out of a discussion/problem as we are, it's difficult to understand what it's like being in that situation. As the great Jarvis Cocker puts it: "Still you'll never get it right, 'cause when you're laid in bed at night watching roaches climb the wall, if you called your Dad, he could stop it all". I recommend following EverydaySexism on Twitter just to see how commonplace and normalised harassment and sexism is for women. Men do not experience discrimination anywhere near as frequently. I can almost hear you asking for evidence.
The problem with evidence for things like this is it is there but is doesn't take the form that people are asking for. It's like the creationist asking for evidence of "transitional forms" and using the lack of it as confirmation of intelligent design. I'm going to call it a "technique", because I believe it is a technique used to dismiss the struggles of women. People want to see scientifically tested or peer-reviewed evidence of things or else they don't believe them. Now, this is a great attitude to have for things that can be tested like that: medicine etc. But you can analyse sociological phenomena like this because you cannot isolate it, and if you could, it would lose all meaning because it's defined by its context. You have to listen to people's experiences. But some people take a leap of logic and conclude that if you can't prove it via rigorous scientific method, then it must not be true, and they take absence of evidence as evidence of absence. They can then explain away every instance they hear one by one with full-on confirmation bias while believing that they are upholding the scientific method. — this is a tangent sorry.
You are not being pushed to the right. You are pushing yourself. You don't have to align yourself to any movement. You can just believe what you believe and be critical of methodology you perceive as negative.
I recommend just trying to see life from the point of view of a woman. Read something lighthearted and funny like Caitlin Moran's How to be a woman. I like her a lot as a feminist. Her views are pretty in line with mine. She doesn't want to fucking ban everything like they all seem to want to do. Banning stuff is rarely the solution. Education, not legislation. If something is sexist, make better stuff and give people the choice.
Random side note: Massive generalisation, but I'll tell you something about 2nd and 3rd wave feminism: 2nd wave may seem all great and simple (hindsight is a wonderful advantage there, of course), but they were pretty anti-porn. 3rd wave on the other hand… a lot more pro-porn. I think porn can be feministic, although most of it isn't. But as a concept, great. Not that that's really got anything to do with anything. Apologies for the non-sequitur there.
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I think they're both pretty closed-minded. Self is pretty rude and arrogant with it, too. I don't think the Labour party should split at all. Self talked about "Marxists" and "effective Neo-Liberals" as though it were some binary split that makes up two opposing factions. In reality, if there are any people as extreme as this in the party, there are only a couple of them. The rest of the PLP comprises of a scale between the two. This breadth of political diversity within what we would describe as mainstream left-wing ideology is the Labour Party's strength. It is this that can be used to understand and address those sections of the electorate that they are not currently reaching. Solutions can be found that fit a more socialist, post-Blairite model. It's not the 1990s anymore and Blairite politics doesn't really exist. It can't exists in the current socio-political and economic climate. It was a product of a more indulgence time when the country had more money. Blair's government remained socially left, but shifted Labour economically right which was where the problems occurred (Iraq aside). We can learn from that. Retain the good bits and learn from the bad.
Corbyn's current government has the same problems that Miliband's did (but to a more exaggerated degree). Miliband has left-wing policies, but dressed them up as more right than they were in order to try to win the centre ground. The result was that he engaged neither group and lost the election. Corbyn, on the other hand, has (for the most part) fairly similar policies (although much less defined), but is dressing them up slightly abstracted, left-wing rhetoric. He promotes himself in a very politically rigid position and refuses to engage with the breadth of Labour's politics. The result of this is that he will alienate most of the electorate, writing their concerns off an "unimportant" rather than opening up a dialogue and creating solutions that work within a socialist framework.
Unfortunately, I can't see him going anywhere or changing his approach anytime in the near future. He just digs his heels in and carries on in the face of devastating poll results that place him in a similar position to Michael Foot in 1983. I think we should be prepared for many further years of Tory rule.
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This interview is painful to watch. Primarily because there are gaping flaws in Jordan Peterson's analysis of gender, but Cathy Newman isn't bright enough to articulate the problem. This results in what appears to be a random assault of ad hominems against Peterson. Newman knows there is something wrong with Peterson's hypothesis, but can't establish what it is.
Peterson is a very well-educated and intelligent man, but his thinking is flawed based on his acceptance of the world as he sees it. Take, for example, his assertion that the gender pay gap is down to numerous factors that are not gender. His example is that women are more agreeable than men — but this is still a gender issue. He has simply taken the observation that women in contemporary society, on average, are more agreeable without looking at why that is. Girls and boys are exposed to a plethora of influences from a very young age that condition them to act this way based on their gender. There is also the assertion that women choose lower-paid careers "of their own free will". Now, there's two problems here: Firstly, when we are conditioned to think and act in certain ways, is that really free will? Secondly, who's to say that it's the women that choose the lower-paid careers or the careers that are valued less because they are dominated by women?
The reasons for the gender pay gap are complex, intricate and nuanced. To assume essentialist motivation behind all thoughts and actions of adults in contemporary western society will inevitably create a flawed model by which to analyse.
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Gommu Okay then,
The number of people suffering is high. And men mostly occupy these positions.
How do you quantify that men suffer more than women?
Stop being silly. It has nothing to do with masculinity, how fucking indoctrinated are you? Think for yourself god damn it ! Don't just repeat feminist talking points - this is why nobody takes you guys seriously !
This is kind of why I didn't respond. I don't have much time for rudeness. It has no place in rational debate.
I would challenge that nobody takes you guys seriously! In the academic world around the study of culture and sociology, your views are in a small minority. The notion that men are more oppressed than women is not the mainstream school of thought.
Christina Hoff Sommers is about as respected in the world of sociology as those PhDs that deny climate change are in the world of science. For every academic text she writes, there are a thousand others that oppose her viewpoint. Her work is easy to debunk.
This shit is complicated, and cannot be explained by something as arbitrary as "the patriarchy" !!!
To reiterate, "patriarchy" does not "explain" anything. It simply means a society where men hold the majority of the power. That's all it is. Antifeminists have tried to warp its meaning in order to discredit feminist discourse. I think the aim is to make feminism look like a conspiracy theory where "the patriarchy" is like some sort of secret society like the Illuminati. This is an academically dishonest practice, but then this is not an academic argument. There are always people who oppose social progression — be that gender equality, racial equality, the equality of sexualities etc. People fear a paradigm shift in social attitudes. They feel that their own specific status quo is the "right" balance and any further progression would be "too much". This is why people opposed the abolition of slavery. To them, this was the norm and it was how things "naturally" were.
Personally, I think women take more than their share of "the shit" given how often they are sexually harassed, patronised, overlooked etc.
I really think you would benefit from reading some feminist books and trying to understand a bit more, but I know you won't do that. This is why I didn't reply. I think this is a futile venture.
If you're wondering how open minded I am on the subject, I am always looking to change my opinion on things. I do frequently when presented with better evidence. But… I do have 2 degrees in this stuff and the kind of rhetoric that goes on in the YouTube comments sections is not exactly groundbreaking. Now, someone with an MSc in climate science will be looked upon by a climate change denier as having been 'indoctrinated' rather than educated. It's the same with Gender and Feminism. An anti-feminist will dismiss is as 'indoctrination' because that's what they need to do to confirm that their position is correct. It's called confirmation bias and it's one of the big sticking points in any debate like this — this is why I don't reply to everyone. I make a judgement call. I also have 2 kids and 2 jobs, so my time is limited.
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+jq747 Wasn't that from like 5 or 6 years ago? Mneh. It's certainly incendiary to call it "rape", but I see what they're saying. From my personal experience of the birth of my own kids, the first time we were pretty appalled by how some of the midwives and obstetricians treated my wife. Some people would walk in, not acknowledge my wife or introduce themselves, then just walk over and stick their fingers in her. There were too many people who treated her like she was just a piece of meat. Now, for our second kid (same hospital 4 years later), it was clear that the staff had been called into question about this as we were treated really differently. The first time properly traumatised my wife and I'm pretty clear this was largely to do with how she was treated as something subhuman and how out of control and scared that left her feeling. Again, it's not literally rape, the term is used to make people look at it differently. I do think they have a point. I think this is part of a wider systemic problem of dehumanising women.
But these sorts of things are thought exercises. It's difficult to analyse your own culture because you are part of it. Things like this are deliberately (and often provocatively) altering the framework by which we view something in order to helps its audience look at something from a different perspective. They are not meant for someone like you. Unfortunately, these things get picked up and taken literally by the lesser-educated on feminist theory. I'm sure if you look, they'll be an angry video by a white, male, heterosexual youtuber like Thunderf00t or The Amazing Atheist telling women how they should be feeling about this; talking about how feminists are saying birth is rape and how stupid they are. As if life were that straight forward and the world were divided into "goodies" and "baddies" like fucking He-Man.
I want to know what you thought of the shirtgate video I posted.
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+Bad Man +joaov2
Our interpretations of the media we consume are subjective, but that subjectivity is born largely out of the cultural framework from which we view it. There is a shared notion of human "beauty" within our culture, but this is at least partly due to being conditioned by the culture we live in and are part of. We know this as we can see this archetype vary throughout our history and throughout the world. I'm sure you know from your art history that notions of female beauty have changed many times. If we look at baroque paintings, "beautiful" women are depicted with chubby, pair-shaped bodies and small breasts. Even decade by decade we can see the "ideal" woman change. In the 1980s, broad shoulders, pubic hair and large breasts were the thing. Today, different cultures aspire to different things. In Japan, women have their teeth cosmetically un-straightened whereas in America, straight, white teeth are the thing to have.
I'm vaguely aware of the studies carried out about facial symmetry etc. But — and please correct me if I'm wrong on this — from what I remember, they were investigations into seeing if there were any common attributes across different cultures' ideas of beauty rather than suggesting that beauty is an entirely objective phenomenon driven exclusively by our biology.
I'd like to move away from the Blurred Lines comment if we can. It was just a throw-away observation that I made because it further suggested to me that you don't fully understand what objectification is. I appreciate that by picking up on it, I am effectively saying "you have done something wrong" and you will feel that you need to defend you position. This is probably a bad psychological position to put you in as it will likely divert the debate and entrench your views. I have more to say on this subject, but I don't think it would be productive to continue this line of conversation.
The Wikipedia link is good (I love Wikipedia), I'm wondering if we should focus more on this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_objectification rather than objectification as a wider topic as this has more relevance to the video we were originally discussing.
BadMan, what is your take on this entry? What do you feel it is missing?
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I disagree. I think this in an emotional reaction, and it comes from a place of wanting someone to face hurt in their life because you feel angry. The people inciting violence against marginalised group — families, children, innocent business owners and residents — DO pose a danger to society, and there needs to be a clear message sent of zero tolerance towards this stuff. People get killed because of this kind of thing, and it's too easy for people to do, not to mention how divorced from reality and anonymous it feels to post things online.
Huw Edwards, on the other hand, is not a typical case. Despite how angry his crimes make people feel, he's already lost everything he built up in his life and I'm not sure prison would serve any further benefit. Imagine going from being famous and respected to suddenly everyone hating you — literally everyone. He can never go out in public again. He's famous. There's no chance he could be in a position to abuse his power again because he has none.
The judge will be privy to move information than anyone here has, and I'm sure they will have made the right call.
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@Dondizle If that were true, nobody would have any problem. Unfortunately she has been on a years-long tirade against trans people. She has done many things including (but not limited to):
- Publicly Mocked trans-inclusive language
- Claimed the existence of transwomen is an attempt to erase women
- Promoted a store selling anti-trans merch such as "f-- your pronouns" & "transwomen are men" pins
- Publicly stated support for a woman who was fired for refusing to stop misgendering trans people
- Followed and liked tweets by a woman who referred to trans women as “blackface actors” with “dirty f--ing perversions”
- Written an anti-trans essay ‘Terf Wars’ that was cited in blocking equality legislation
- Repeatedly insinuated that trans women are criminals who will use women's spaces assaults girls
- Written a book about a man who dressed up as a woman to get away with his crimes
- Publicly states opposition to trans rights legislation
- Created a "cis only" support centre
- Tweeted "Merry Terfmas”
- Posted a picture of herself wearing a T-shirt by Posie Parker attacking Nicola Sturgeon for being a trans ally
- Has never once distanced herself from any of the many openly self declared TERFs who quote her
- Written a second book about a stand in for herself being murdered by trans-rights activists
- Met and been photographed with a group of TERFs that declare "all transsexuals rape women's bodies"
- Publicly praised Matt Walsh for his movie ’What is a Woman?’
- Referred to trans women as ’men in dresses’
I can give more examples if you want.
I don't know what you mean about biology. There has been plenty of research done into gender identity and gender dysphoria. I can provide links to several peer-reviewed papers on this if you want (although links are often blocked in YouTube comments).
Not enough study has been done for the evidence to be totally conclusive, but it points to genes playing the biggest role in determining someone’s gender identity.
We don’t know why trans people experience gender dysphoria in the same way we don’t know why gay people are attracted to people of the same sex. We also don’t know why we need to sleep or why gravity works. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter. We don’t know why yet, but we know that it exists and what its effects are.
When people quote "basic biology", they often seem to have little knowledge of the non-binary nature of the SRY gene. It isn’t as straightforward as XX for women and XY for men. While typically, males have XY and females have XX chromosomes, this isn’t exclusive. When groups of people are sampled, plenty of anatomically male bodies have some XX chromosomes, and likewise female bodies have XY. We know that a single amino acid change from methionine to isoleucine in the SRY gene can cause an embryo with XY sex chromosomes to develop as a female.
There's too much to go through in a YouTube comment.
Although, ultimately this is all futile as I doubt you're interested in actually learning something.
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