Comments by "J Nagarya" (@jnagarya519) on "NBC News"
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@Kaltwasser45 "Please provide writings from our founders that wanted to limit private ownership."
From the Vermont constitution of July 2, 1777:
"CHAPTER I.
"A Declaration of Rights," etc. -- this is the Militia Clause:
"XV. That the people have a right to [no "keep and"] bear arms for the defense of themselves AND ["AND" does not mean "OR"] the State [gov't]; and, as standing armies, in the time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the liberty should be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power."
"CHAPTER II. -- private ownership of guns. Note that CHAPTER I. and CHAPTER II. are SEPARATE CHAPTERS:
"Section XXXIX. That the inhabitants of this State, shall have liberty to hunt and fowl, in seasonable times [this REGULATED by STATUTE/S], on the lands they hold, and on other lands (not enclosed;) . . . under proper regulations, to be hereafter made and provided by the General Assembly."
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Thus, as shown, the private, individual right to possess guns is SEPARATE from serving Militia DUTY. Further, the constitution expressly stipulates that that right is subject to "regulations . . . made and provide by the General Assembly," which is the LEGISLATIVE branch.
Also of note is that the above Militia Clause, with those of three other state constitutions, were the sources for that which become the Second Amendment.
And as in EVERY state the commander-in-chief of the militia is the state's governor, it is OBVIOUS that the well-regulated Militia -- there is no other -- is under the regulation and governance of the legislature, and that the state militia is an arm OF gov't, and thus NOT intended to be a THREAT TO gov't, gov't being by definition RULE OF LAW.
As reminder, from the US Constitution:
"Art. I., S. 8., C. 15. The Congress shall have Power To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute [ENFORCE] the Laws of the Union, SUPPRESS INSURRECTIONS, and repel Invasions."
See "Shays's" and "Whiskey" insurrections: the Founders charged them with, tried them for, and convicted them of, TREASON, and sentenced them to DEATH. There is no "right" to "take up arms" against the gov't/RULE OF LAW.
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@olympicfireball What about the 9th and 10th Amendments -- slapping the faces of those who invoke those in effort to dodge the fact that the subject of the Second Amendment is well-regulated Militia, and its intent to establish a National Defense relying on the Militia as not only the Debates make clear but also the second "Militia Act" of May 8, 1792.
Being "secure" in one's papers, subject only to warrant, is certainly about privacy. We also recognize the right of privacy in the various privileges applying to such as lawyer-client and doctor-patient relationships.
All of the Bill of Rights bars infringement by gov't, including the Second Amendment guarantee that the state's can keep their well-regulated Militia, while at the same time the Constitution expressly stipulates that the Militia is subject to "organizing, ARMING, and disciplining" and training by Congress's regulation, AND the concomitant regulation and governing of same under the state's constitution and laws.
You want to deny, with the 6 "Federalist Society" religioEXTREMISTS that the right of privacy doesn't exist simply because the words "right of privacy" don't exist in the Constitution.
Other words that don't appear in the Constitution:
"Originalism".
"Textualism".
"Individual right to own guns.
So, being a hypocrite, you are AGAINST the "invisible" right of privacy, but NOT against the "invisible" individual right to own guns". That is obviously INCOHERENT.
So was Scalia: in Heller he strenuously argued that the legislative history -- the DEBATES of the writing of the Second Amendment -- are irrelevant. But in his dissent in a subsequent gun case he strenuously argued that the very same legislative history is CRUCIAL.
The problem is that you're a law-illiterate, AND intellectually dishonest, so there is no way you can get around the fact that the subject of the Second Amendment is the well-regulated Militia, and that it does not protect an individual right. When will you learn basic logic, and the ethical requirement of being intellectually honest?
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@twotokes1734 This is ACTUAL law, and it refutes the anti-American crap you and "locksmith db" guzzle:
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No law protects private "militia"
This chronology illustrates both the evolution and elaboration, and specificity, of law, and at the same time its continued fundamental consistency, over centuries:
Militia Act from October 1658 (rendered in contemporary English):
"Military, [S.] 11. . . . It is Further Ordered, that henceforth all warrants for impressing [e.g., DRAFTING] & raising of soldiers for any expedition, shall be directed to the Committee of militia of the several Towns who may execute the same by the Constable & the said Committee are hereby impowered & required to suppress all raising of soldiers, but such as shall be by the authority of this government."
The Colonial Laws of Massachusetts. Reprinted from the Edition of 1660, with the Supplements to 1672. Containing Also, the Body of Liberties of 1641. (Boston: Rockwell & Churchill, City Printers, Published by Order of the City Council of Boston, 1889), William H. Whitmore, Record Commissioner, at 179.
"Committee of Militia" is part of the town gov't. Between Committee and Colony gov't was a military command structure, in law, which included that the governor was commander-in-chief of the Militia.
From the Constitution, ratification completed on June 21, 1788:
"Art. I., S. 8., C. 15. The CONGRESS shall have Power To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute [ENFORCE] the Laws of the Union, SUPPRESS INSURRECTIONS, and repel Invasions."
"Art. I., s. 8., C. 16. The CONGRESS shall have Power To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia . . . reserving to the States the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress."
From Supreme Court decision _Presser v. Illinois_, 116 U.S. 252 (1886):
"(115) . . . . It cannot be successfully questioned that the state governments, unless restrained by their own constitutions . . . have . . . the power to control and regulate the organization, drilling, and parading of military bodies and associations . . . . (116) The exercise of this power by the states is necessary to the public peace, safety, and good order. To deny the power would be to deny the right of the state to disperse assemblages organized for sedition and treason, and the right to suppress armed mobs bent on riot and rapine."
From _District of Columbia v. Heller_, 554 U.S. 570, 621 (2008) citing _Presser_:
The Second Amendment "does not prevent the prohibition of private paramilitary organizations".
In fact, all 50 states classify such fake "militia" as "paramilitaries" and PROHIBIT them.
Pick your state:
https://www.law.georgetown.edu/icap/our-work/addressing-the-rise-of-unlawful-private-paramilitaries/state-fact-sheets/
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@emmittmatthews8636 U.S. Constitution, "Art. I., S. 8., C. 16. The CONGRESS shall have Power To provide for . . . ARMING . . . the Militia".:
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Chap. LXV.--An Act providing Arms for the Militia throughout the United States.
Section 1. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That there shall be provided, at the charge and expense of the government of the United States, thirty thousand stand of arms, which shall be deposited by order of the President of the United States, at suitable places, for the purpose of being sold to the governments of the respective States, or the militia thereof, under such regulations, and at such prices as the President of the United States shall prescribe.
Sec. 2. And be it further enacted, That the President of the United States be, and he is hereby authorized to cause all or any part of the arms herein directed to be provided and deposited for sale, which shall, at any time, remain unsold, to be delivered to the militia, when called into the service of the United States, proper receipts and security being given for the return of the same.
Sec. 3. And be it further enacted, That the monies arising from such sales shall be paid into the treasury of the United States, and the amount received shall be annually reported to Congress.
Sec. 4. And be it further enacted, That for the purpose of carrying this act into effect, the President of the United States shall be, and he is hereby authorized to draw from the treasury of the United States, a [577] sum not exceeding four hundred thousand dollars, to be paid out of any money in the treasury not otherwise appropriated.
Approved, July 6, 1798.
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The Public Statutes at Large of the United States of America, from the Organization of the Government in 1789, to March 3, 1845. Arranged in Chronological Order. With References to the Matter of Each Act and to the Subsequent Acts on the Same Subject, and Copious Notes of the Decisions of the Courts of the United States Construing Those Acts, and Upon the Subjects of the Laws. With an Index to the Contents of Each Volume, and a Full General Index to the Whole Work, in the Concluding Volume. Together with the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, and the Constitution of the United States; and Also, Tables, in the Last Volume, Containing Lists of the Acts Relating to the Judiciary, Imposts and Tonnage, the Public Lands, Etc., Vol I. (Boston: Charles C. Little and James Brown, 1850), By Authority of Congress, Edited by Richard Peters, at 576.
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Chap. XXIX.
An act to enable the Governor to provide a laboratory and proper magazines for the reception of arms, ammunition, and other public stores.
1. Whereas it is expedient that proper magazines for the reception of arms, ammunition, and other public stores, and a laboratory be speedily provided, Be it enacted by the General Assembly, that the Governor with the advice of his Council may, and he is hereby empowered and required to cause such and so many magazines as shall be judged necessary, and a laboratory to immediately be erected at the public expence, at such place or places as they shall think proper; and that reasonable satisfaction may be made to the proprietors of all lands which by virtue of this act may be taken and appropriated to the uses aforesaid, the clerk of the county wherein any such land shall lie, is hereby empowered and required, on requisition from the Governor for the time being, to issue a writ _ad quod dammon_, to be directed to the sheriff of the said county, commanding him to summon and empannel twelve able discreet freeholders of the vicinage, no ways concerned in interest in the said lands, nor related to the owners or proprietors thereof, to meet on the said lands respectively on a certain day to be mentioned in the said writ, not under five, nor more than ten days from the date thereof, of which notice shall be given to the respective proprietors of the said lands, if they be to be found within the county, and if not, then to their respective agents if any there be; which freeholders take nothing on pain of being discharged from the inquest and immediately imprisoned by the sheriff, either of meat or drink from any person whatever, from the time they came to the said place until their inquest sealed, shall be charged by the said sheriff impartially, and to the best of their skill and judgment to value the lands on which the said magazines and laboratory are to be erected, to be laid off by order of the Governor, and not exceeding three acres for each of said buildings; and after such valuation made, the said sheriff shall forthwith return the same under the hands and seals of the said jurors, to the clerk's office of the said county; and the right and property of the said lands so laid off and valued, shall be immediately devested and be transferred to this commonwealth in fee simple; any want of consent or disability to consent in the said owners notwithstanding. The cost of building such magazines and laboratory, the cost of the said inquest, and the several sums at which the rights of the owners are valued, shall be paid by the Treasurer, out of the public money in his hands, to the undertakers of the said magazines and laboratory, to the said proprietors and others respectively entitled, on warrants from the Auditors, countersigned by the Governor.
A Collection of All Such Public Acts of the General Assembly, and Ordinances of the Conventions of Virginia, Passed since the year 1768, as are now in force; With a Table of the Principal Matters (Richmond: Thomas Nicolson and William Prentis, 1785); The First Laws of the State of Virginia (Wilmington, DE: Michael Glazier, Inc., "The First Laws of the Original Thirteen States," 1982), Compiled by John D. Cushing, at 129-130.
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At a General Assembly begun and held at the Public Buildings in the City of Richmond, on Monday the 21st day of October, in the Year of our Lord 1782.
Chap. XII.
An act for the recovery of arms and accoutrements belonging to the state.
I. Whereas sundry arms and accoutrements belonging to the public in the hands of individuals, who have neglected to return them to the proper officers; and it is necessary that such arms and accoutrements should be recovered as speedily as possible: Be it enacted, that the Governor do, on the passing of this act, issue his proclamation, enjoining all persons having in their possession any arms or accoutrements whatsoever, belonging to the state, to deliver them without delay to the Lieutenant or commanding officer of the county for the time being; and the sheriff of each county within this commonwealth, shall cause copies of the said proclamations, which shall be transmitted to him by the Executive, to be fixed up in the most public places in his county, and if after one month from such public notice having been given, any person possessing any such public arms or accoutrements, shall be convicted of having failed to deliver them up as aforesaid, such person shall, upon every such conviction, be liable to the penalty of twenty pounds, to be recovered by action of debt, bill, plaint, or information, in any court of record within this commonwealth, one half of which penalty shall go to the informer, on conviction of the offender, and the other half shall be applied in aid of the county levy where such offender shall reside. And the Lieutenant, or commanding officer of each county, shall make returns from time to time, to the Executive, of all arms and accoutrements so delivered to him, and also deliver them to the order of the Executive, under the penalty, if he fail in all or any part of his duty, of fifty pounds, to be recovered as aforesaid, and applied in diminution of the county levy. Provided always, that where muskets and bayonets have been by order of government placed in any county on eastern or western frontier for defence against incursions of the enemy, it shall be lawful for the Lieutenant or commanding officer to return such muskets and bayonets to the militia, taking a receipt from each person for what shall be so returned.
A Collection of All Such Public Acts of the General Assembly, and Ordinances of the Conventions of Virginia, Passed since the year 1768, as are now in force; With a Table of the Principal Matters (Richmond: Thomas Nicolson and William Prentis, 1785); The First Laws of the State of Virginia (Wilmington, DE: Michael Glazier, Inc., "The First Laws of the Original Thirteen States," 1982), Compiled by John D. Cushing, at 176.
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The central problem with you gun-nuts is that you believe the Founders were as ignorant and stupid as you are. Above all the Founders believed in the rule of law. "Justice and the Rule of Law are to be ABOVE politics." -- John Adams.
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@emmittmatthews8636 AGAIN:
The SOURCES of the Second amendment were FOUR STATE constitution Militia Clauses. "The right of the people", etc., IS the well-regulated Militia.
The PURPOSE of the Second Amendment is shown in the DEBATES of its WRITING: to establish a NATIONAL DEFENSE relying on the well-regulated Militia. In that it protected the STATES' right to keep their well-regulated Militia, which already existed, and were ALL ALONG GOVERNED AND REGULATED under constitutions and laws.
The Amendment DID NOT prevent the Federal gov't from using the Militia -- the Amendment, AGAIN, was intended to establish a NATIONAL defense relying on the Militia, as had already been established in the Constitution with Art. I., S. 8., C. 15.
And Art. I., S. 8., C. 16:
"The CONGRESS shall have Power To provide for organizing, ARMING, and disciplining, the Militia . . . reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers [which was done by the state's governor and legislature], and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed BY CONGRESS."
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@emmittmatthews8636 "The Federalist" is NOT LAW. And James Madison was not the only member of the Congress.
Madison provided the first draft of what became the Second Amendment, but he DID NOT WRITE IT. First, the sources for it were four state constitution Militia Clauses, in which "the right of the people", etc., IS the well-regulated Militia.
And the DEBATES and WRITING of the Bill of Rights was by BOTH House AND SENATE. Madison was not a Senator.
As for "The Federalist," which was extra-Congressional newspaper articles written anonymously: it was admittedly an ADVERTISING campaign intended to SELL the Constitution. It was PROPAGANDA. And there is this:
". . . . I go further, and affirm that bills of rights, in the sense and in the extent in which they are contended for, are not only unnecessary in the proposed constitution, but would even be dangerous. . . ." "Federalist No. 84."
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@emmittmatthews8636 " I've defeated your attempt to claim that guns were "public use".
False. See the following, and note the dates:
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Chap. XXIX.
An act to enable the Governor to provide a laboratory and proper magazines for the reception of arms, ammunition, and other public stores.
1. Whereas it is expedient that proper magazines for the reception of arms, ammunition, and other public stores, and a laboratory be speedily provided, Be it enacted by the General Assembly, that the Governor with the advice of his Council may, and he is hereby empowered and required to cause such and so many magazines as shall be judged necessary, and a laboratory to immediately be erected at the public expence, at such place or places as they shall think proper; and that reasonable satisfaction may be made to the proprietors of all lands which by virtue of this act may be taken and appropriated to the uses aforesaid, the clerk of the county wherein any such land shall lie, is hereby empowered and required, on requisition from the Governor for the time being, to issue a writ _ad quod dammon_, to be directed to the sheriff of the said county, commanding him to summon and empannel twelve able discreet freeholders of the vicinage, no ways concerned in interest in the said lands, nor related to the owners or proprietors thereof, to meet on the said lands respectively on a certain day to be mentioned in the said writ, not under five, nor more than ten days from the date thereof, of which notice shall be given to the respective proprietors of the said lands, if they be to be found within the county, and if not, then to their respective agents if any there be; which freeholders take nothing on pain of being discharged from the inquest and immediately imprisoned by the sheriff, either of meat or drink from any person whatever, from the time they came to the said place until their inquest sealed, shall be charged by the said sheriff impartially, and to the best of their skill and judgment to value the lands on which the said magazines and laboratory are to be erected, to be laid off by order of the Governor, and not exceeding three acres for each of said buildings; and after such valuation made, the said sheriff shall forthwith return the same under the hands and seals of the said jurors, to the clerk's office of the said county; and the right and property of the said lands so laid off and valued, shall be immediately devested and be transferred to this commonwealth in fee simple; any want of consent or disability to consent in the said owners notwithstanding. The cost of building such magazines and laboratory, the cost of the said inquest, and the several sums at which the rights of the owners are valued, shall be paid by the Treasurer, out of the public money in his hands, to the undertakers of the said magazines and laboratory, to the said proprietors and others respectively entitled, on warrants from the Auditors, countersigned by the Governor.
A Collection of All Such Public Acts of the General Assembly, and Ordinances of the Conventions of Virginia, Passed since the year 1768, as are now in force; With a Table of the Principal Matters (Richmond: Thomas Nicolson and William Prentis, 1785); The First Laws of the State of Virginia (Wilmington, DE: Michael Glazier, Inc., "The First Laws of the Original Thirteen States," 1982), Compiled by John D. Cushing, at 129-130.
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At a General Assembly begun and held at the Public Buildings in the City of Richmond, on Monday the 21st day of October, in the Year of our Lord 1782.
Chap. XII.
An act for the recovery of arms and accoutrements belonging to the state.
I. Whereas sundry arms and accoutrements belonging to the public in the hands of individuals, who have neglected to return them to the proper officers; and it is necessary that such arms and accoutrements should be recovered as speedily as possible: Be it enacted, that the Governor do, on the passing of this act, issue his proclamation, enjoining all persons having in their possession any arms or accoutrements whatsoever, belonging to the state, to deliver them without delay to the Lieutenant or commanding officer of the county for the time being; and the sheriff of each county within this commonwealth, shall cause copies of the said proclamations, which shall be transmitted to him by the Executive, to be fixed up in the most public places in his county, and if after one month from such public notice having been given, any person possessing any such public arms or accoutrements, shall be convicted of having failed to deliver them up as aforesaid, such person shall, upon every such conviction, be liable to the penalty of twenty pounds, to be recovered by action of debt, bill, plaint, or information, in any court of record within this commonwealth, one half of which penalty shall go to the informer, on conviction of the offender, and the other half shall be applied in aid of the county levy where such offender shall reside. And the Lieutenant, or commanding officer of each county, shall make returns from time to time, to the Executive, of all arms and accoutrements so delivered to him, and also deliver them to the order of the Executive, under the penalty, if he fail in all or any part of his duty, of fifty pounds, to be recovered as aforesaid, and applied in diminution of the county levy. Provided always, that where muskets and bayonets have been by order of government placed in any county on eastern or western frontier for defence against incursions of the enemy, it shall be lawful for the Lieutenant or commanding officer to return such muskets and bayonets to the militia, taking a receipt from each person for what shall be so returned.
A Collection of All Such Public Acts of the General Assembly, and Ordinances of the Conventions of Virginia, Passed since the year 1768, as are now in force; With a Table of the Principal Matters (Richmond: Thomas Nicolson and William Prentis, 1785); The First Laws of the State of Virginia (Wilmington, DE: Michael Glazier, Inc., "The First Laws of the Original Thirteen States," 1982), Compiled by John D. Cushing, at 176.
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Those are PUBLIC arms.
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And despite the rhetoric in The Federalist -- which, again, is NOT LAW -- the Founders in actual reality engaged in every form of gun control including prohibition and confiscation:
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Chapter DCCXXIX.
An Ordinance Respecting the Arms of Non-Associators.
Whereas the non-associators in this state have either refused or neglected to deliver up their arms according to the resolves of the honorable Continental Congress and the assembly of Pennsylvania, and effectual measures have not been taken to carry the said resolves into execution:
[Section I.] Be it therefore ordained by the authority of this Convention, That the colonel or next officer in command of every band of militia in this state is hereby authorized, empowered and required to collect, receive and take all the arms in his district or township nearest to such officer which are in the hands of non-associators in the most expeditious and effectual manner in his power, and shall give to the owners receipts for such arms, specifying the amount of the appraisement; and such as can be repaired shall with all possible dispatch be rendered fit for service, and the value according to the appraisement of all such arms, together with the repairs and transportation, shall be paid to the officers by the treasurer on the order of the council of safety for the use of the owners and defraying the charges.
[Section II.] And be it further ordained, That the same arms shall be appraised by any three reputable freeholders appointed by the commanding officer; but if the owner of any arms shall neglect or refuse to apply for such money within six months the same shall be applied towards the repairs of the arms; and the colonels are hereby authorized to draw for the necessary sums of money for the purposes aforesaid on the council of safety.
[Section III.] And it is further ordained, That the colonels aforesaid shall arm the associators with the said arms and keep an account to whom they are delivered and return the same to the council of safety; and every associator shall be answerable for such arms or the value unless lost or destroyed by some unavoidable accident or in actual service.
[Section IV.] And be it further ordained, That in case any arms so collected shall not be worth repairing, the same shall be laid by until such time as may be thought proper by the committee of the county to return them to the owners.
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Passed July 19, 1776. "Ordinances passed by the Constitutional Convention, June-September, 1776," The Statutes at Large of the State of Pennsylvania from 1682 to 1801, Vol. IX, 1776 to 1779 (Wm. Stanley Ray, State Printer of Pennsylvania, 1903), Edited by Commissioners James T. Mitchell and Henry Flanders, at 11.
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@emmittmatthews8636 There are some excellent videos on youtube by lawyer and law professor Noah Feldman about the Founders. He also wrote a biography of Madison.
It is important to know the facts on the ground -- who the individual Founders actually were. As example, Hamilton was a backstabbing snake. During the so-called "revolution," for lack of funds, ordinary soldiers were paid with IOUs. After the war there was a depression, and those veterans were desperate for money but the gov't was broke. Hamilton and his friends went around and bought up the IOUs for pennies on the dollar, then turned them into the gov't for 100 pennies on the dollar.
Madison was against a bill of rights before he was for a bill of rights. Feldman provides the facts as to why -- it involved Patrick Henry, who boldly said "Give me liberty or give me death!" while a member of the House of Burgesses and far, far from the battlefield.
Henry asked the House of Burgesses to appoint him head of the Virginia militia, but it refused because his colleagues viewed him as unstable.
Also: Madison wanted the proposed "bill of rights" interspersed within the body of the Constitution. That didn't happen because he didn't have the only say on ANY matter.
And for John Adams -- see the lectures by David McCullough, also on youtube. He was the only Founder to never own slaves, and to vocally oppose slavery. He wrote the Massachusetts constitution, most significantly establishing separation of powers, which was the model for the US Constitution.
It was Adams who pushed the "Declaration" through the Congress. But as he was "obnoxious & disliked" (his own words) he knew that a resolution from Massachusetts would have been voted down, so he persuaded Virginia to submit that resolution, and it was accepted. Still, as Adams was the constant sparkplug on the issue, his colleagues figured he should write it. Instead, he had Jefferson appointed to write it because "better at language" (than Adams); actually, giving the southern state of Virginia some glory was likely to bring other Southern states along.
AFTER Jefferson wrote it Franklin and Adams went through it and made changes. AFTER that the whole Congress debated it and made changes. See the film "1776," which is largely accurate.
In France, while gadfly Jefferson was hobnobbing with the aristocracy and Franklin was whoring ("bedroom diplomacy"?), Adams was in Holland negotiating with the bankers for a loan -- which the US desperately needed to fund the war. During those several years he fell ill and almost died. He established there the first US embassy -- which was essential to other nations' recognizing American independence.
If you don't read the McCullough biography of Adams then see the HBO miniseries -- "John Adams" -- based on it, available as DVD and Blu-Ray. The extraordinary length of accomplishments FOR the country by John Adams would leave even skeptics speechless. History has given him short-shrift. And I'll say it again: his cousin Samuel was a propagandist and demagogue, whereas John put rule of law ABOVE politics. In one scene Sam and his violent mob -- the so-called "Liberty Boys" -- are chellenged John to "pick a side". John responds (paraphrase), "The law is my side -- is there another? He did say: "Justice and the Rule of law are to be ABOVE politics.
Again: it is essential to know who the Founders were as individuals, and what they were for -- Feldman shows that Madison was "three different" people, sequentially; things he was for he was later against; things he was against he was later for.
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