Comments by "J Nagarya" (@jnagarya519) on "NBC News"
channel.
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
The anti-gov't law illiterates assert that the National Guard is a "standing army," which is not the fact.
The "need" to stipulate IN THE CONSTITUTION the purposes of the Militia/National Guard is expressed in two directly on-point grievances against King George III in the "Declaration of Independence":
"He has kept among us, in Times of Peace, Standing Armies, without the consent of out Legislatures."
"He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power."
The "Declaration" has never been law, and applied exclusively to ENGLAND, but those two provisions found their way into state and then US constitutions.
In sum: Civilian control of the military, and no "right" of "revolution"/INSURRECTION:
"Art. I., S. 8., C. 15. The CONGRESS shall have Power To provide for calling forth the Militia/National Guard to execute [ENFORCE] the Laws of the Union, SUPPRESS INSURRECTIONS, and repel Invasions."
"Art. I., S. 8., C. 16. The CONGRESS shall have Power To provide for organizing, ARMING, and disciplining, the Militia . . . reserving to the States [GOV'T] respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of disciplining the Militia/National Guard according to the discipline prescribed BY CONGRESS."
Thus the well-regulated Militia/National Guard is regulated -- Constitutional provisions are implemented by means of STATUTES -- and governed -- by the CIVIL power -- under BOTH US AND STATE constitutions and laws.
You gullibles who repeat non-law and pseudo-law and other such gibberish DON'T KNOW those facts because you DON'T READ the US Constitution, let alone your OWN STATES' constitutions.
There is only ONE Militia/National Guard: that well-regulated -- and governed -- under US and state GOV'T. ALL the fake "militia" in ALL 50 states are classified in law as "paramilitaries" and PROHIBITED.
But I don't expect law-illiterates to actually READ the ACTUAL law -- your STATE constitution and laws are doubtless available from your state legislature's or secretary of state's website -- so they might have some modicum of appearing to know what they're talking about.
1
-
@fastpat1 Citation?
That the National Guard is subject to the orders of the Commander-in-Chief WHEN FEEDERALIZED shouldn't surprise anyone: that fact is stipulated in the Constitution.
And when NOT Federalized the commander-in chief of the Militia/National Guard is the state's GOVERNOR. It's been that way since before there were formal constitutions. As example, the commander-in-chief who oversaw the crushing of 'Shayes's" insurrection under the Articles of Confederation was the state's governor.
And the Federalized Militia, lead by Commander-in-Chief George Washington, crushed the "Whiskey" insurrection AFTER THE SECOND AMENDMENT WAS RATIFIED.
It's no secret, based on "Art. I., S. 8., C. 15 & 16, the First Amendment, and the Second Amendment itself, that (a) there is no "right" to engage in insurrection, and (b) an express purpose of the well-regulated Militia/National Guard is the suppression of insurrection (as also was done to "Shays's"). And it's all right there in the Constitution you've never bothered to READ.
1
-
1
-
1
-
@willmont8258 "There would be no need for the 2nd otherwise, since A1, S8 already gives Congress the power to arm the Militia when in the service of the US."
The Congress has been all along arming the well-regulated Militia see Section 1:
___
Chap. LXV.--An Act providing Arms for the Militia throughout the United States.
Section 1. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That there shall be provided, at the charge and expense of the government of the United States, thirty thousand stand of arms, which shall be deposited by order of the President of the United States, at suitable places, for the purpose of being sold to the governments of the respective States, or the militia thereof, under such regulations, and at such prices as the President of the United States shall prescribe.
Sec. 2. And be it further enacted, That the President of the United States be, and he is hereby authorized to cause all or any part of the arms herein directed to be provided and deposited for sale, which shall, at any time, remain unsold, to be delivered to the militia, when called into the service of the United States, proper receipts and security being given for the return of the same.
Sec. 3. And be it further enacted, That the monies arising from such sales shall be paid into the treasury of the United States, and the amount received shall be annually reported to Congress.
Sec. 4. And be it further enacted, That for the purpose of carrying this act into effect, the President of the United States shall be, and he is hereby authorized to draw from the treasury of the United States, a [577] sum not exceeding four hundred thousand dollars, to be paid out of any money in the treasury not otherwise appropriated.
Approved, July 6, 1798.
___
The Public Statutes at Large of the United States of America, from the Organization of the Government in 1789, to March 3, 1845. Arranged in Chronological Order. With References to the Matter of Each Act and to the Subsequent Acts on the Same Subject, and Copious Notes of the Decisions of the Courts of the United States Construing Those Acts, and Upon the Subjects of the Laws. With an Index to the Contents of Each Volume, and a Full General Index to the Whole Work, in the Concluding Volume. Together with the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, and the Constitution of the United States; and Also, Tables, in the Last Volume, Containing Lists of the Acts Relating to the Judiciary, Imposts and Tonnage, the Public Lands, Etc., Vol I. (Boston: Charles C. Little and James Brown, 1850), By Authority of Congress, Edited by Richard Peters, at 576.
1
-
@willmont8258 Tell us who owned the arms in the following -- research "public arms". And note the date of it:
___
At a General Assembly begun and held at the Public Buildings in the City of Richmond, on Monday the 21st day of October, in the Year of our Lord 1782.
Chap. XII.
An act for the recovery of arms and accoutrements belonging to the state.
I. Whereas sundry arms and accoutrements belonging to the public in the hands of individuals, who have neglected to return them to the proper officers; and it is necessary that such arms and accoutrements should be recovered as speedily as possible: Be it enacted, that the Governor do, on the passing of this act, issue his proclamation, enjoining all persons having in their possession any arms or accoutrements whatsoever, belonging to the state, to deliver them without delay to the Lieutenant or commanding officer of the county for the time being; and the sheriff of each county within this commonwealth, shall cause copies of the said proclamations, which shall be transmitted to him by the Executive, to be fixed up in the most public places in his county, and if after one month from such public notice having been given, any person possessing any such public arms or accoutrements, shall be convicted of having failed to deliver them up as aforesaid, such person shall, upon every such conviction, be liable to the penalty of twenty pounds, to be recovered by action of debt, bill, plaint, or information, in any court of record within this commonwealth, one half of which penalty shall go to the informer, on conviction of the offender, and the other half shall be applied in aid of the county levy where such offender shall reside. And the Lieutenant, or commanding officer of each county, shall make returns from time to time, to the Executive, of all arms and accoutrements so delivered to him, and also deliver them to the order of the Executive, under the penalty, if he fail in all or any part of his duty, of fifty pounds, to be recovered as aforesaid, and applied in diminution of the county levy. Provided always, that where muskets and bayonets have been by order of government placed in any county on eastern or western frontier for defence against incursions of the enemy, it shall be lawful for the Lieutenant or commanding officer to return such muskets and bayonets to the militia, taking a receipt from each person for what shall be so returned.
"A Collection of All Such Public Acts of the General Assembly, and Ordinances of the Conventions of Virginia, Passed since the year 1768, as are now in force; With a Table of the Principal Matters" (Richmond: Thomas Nicolson and William Prentis, 1785); "The First Laws of the State of Virginia" (Wilmington, DE: Michael Glazier, Inc., "The First Laws of the Original Thirteen States," 1982), Compiled by John D. Cushing, at 176.
1
-
@willmont8258 " A1, S8 simply gave Congress certain powers over the Militia of the States,"
False. In fact, several of the states included with their ratifications of the Constitution both petitions to be accepted into the Union, and proposed Amendments. Federalist Madison codified the proposed amendments as a RESOLUTION which he submitted to Congress for debate.
The Bill of Rights was not written by Madison; the House debated and wrote it as COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE, and the Senate -- of which Madison was not a member -- also weighed in on it.
The Second Amendment established the right of the states to keep their well-regulated Militia, which were already regulated and governed under the states' constitutions and laws, all of which constitutions were adopted in 1776-77 -- except for Massachusetts, which was submitted to the electorate for approval and ratified in October, 1780. Thus the Militia is regulated under BOTH US and state constitutions and laws.
" which were made up of the people armed with their own guns."
False. And I posted a Virginia statute which pre-existed the Constitution and which orders the recovery of weapons, etc., which were PUBLIC ARMS. There is also an account of Sam Adams giving a speech at Fauniel Hall with the arms arrayed across the front of the stage. After the speech the arms were gathered up and returned to the PUBLIC STORES.
And the FICTION of the "embattled farmers" making up the militia is refuted by the actual history. The New England militia, as example, had been hardened by more than 100 years of near-constant wars with the Indians, and since the earliest days of their foundings the colonies were members of a "mutual aid" Confederation of New England Colonies". Thus there was established a regional military command, and the miliitia were thoroughly trained. And at the time of the so-called "revolution" -- it was a civil war; no gov'ts were "attacked" or "overthrown" -- they had the same guns as the British.
And as I've stated, the Founders engaged in every form of gun control, including prohibition and confiscation. As example, they confiscated the guns of those who weren't in the militia and gave them to the militia.
There has never been a time that any gov't has allowed armed gangs to shoot at the gov't. The Founders were no different. As provided in the "Declaration": "He has affected to render the Military to independent of and superior to the Civil Power." They established their view and precedents by suppressing "Shays's" and "Whiskey" insurrections.
1
-
@willmont8258 The Founders applied the same two "Declaration" principles domestically, as I have shown. See Art. I., S. 8., C. 15. as example: that applies within the United States. See the suppression of "Shays's" insurrection by the state militia, and see suppression of the "Whiskey" insurrection by Federalized state militia. No gov't authorizes armed gangs of law-illiterates high on empty arrogance to shoot at the gov't.
The same provisions exist in state law.
As said, there is ONE Militia, and it is the National Guard.
If you want to deny those are the same, then you're still up against the fact that the commander-in-chief of your state the militia -- there is ONE militia -- is the state's GOVERNOR, not a rag-tag- bunch of malcontented law-illiterates strung out on stubborn law-illiterate stupidity.
The first of the following is cognizant of the Supremacy Clause. Those subsequent note that the selection of militia officers is by advice and consent of the legislature, not by crackpot law-illiterates "in the field".
___
SPEECHES
of
His Excellency the Governor
and
Messages Transmitted by His Excellency to the
General Court During the Legislative Year
1792.
__________________
[May Session, 1792.]
. . . .
GENTLEMEN,
I have directed the Secretary to lay before you such Acts & proceedings of the Congress of the United States, as have been forwarded to me: Among them, is an Act for regulating the Militia of the States. That Act appears to me to be quite consonant to the Constitution of the General Government, & I shall, as commander in Chief of the Militia of this State take every measure within my power to render the Militia respectable under it. . . .
JOHN HANCOCK.
Council Chamber, June 6th, 1792.
_________________________________________________________________________________________
_Gentlemen of the Senate and Gentlemen of the House of Representatives_,
The Secretary will lay before you a Letter of Resignation from Major General Titcomb of the second Division of the Militia in this Commonwealth--You will please to take such measures in filling up the vacancy as you shall judge best.
JOHN HANCOCK.
Council Chamber, June 14th, 1792
_________________________________________________________________________________________
[May Session, 1792.]
_Gentlemen of the Senate & Gentlemen of the House of Representatives_,
The Secretary will lay before you the Resignation of Major General Newell of the Seventh Division of the Militia in this Commonwealth on account of his ill Health--You will please to take such measures in filling up the Vacancy as you shall judge best.
JOHN HANCOCK.
Council Chamber, June 15th, 1792
_________________________________________________________________________________________
. . . .
[November Session, 1792.]
_Gentlemen of the Senate & Gentlemen of the House of Representatives_,
The Secretary will lay before you the Pay Roll of a Detachment of the Boston Militia which I found myself obliged to order to Castle Island to supply the place of the Troops on the Island who were under the operation of the Small Pox. I engaged they should receive their pay for the service agreeably to the terms of the Roll & submit it to your consideration. Their Conduct while on duty merits notice, & I doubt not they will meet yours. . . .
JOHN HANCOCK.
Concord, Novr. 9, 1792.
_________________________________________________________________________________________
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
@casper3130 This is a "Militia Act" from Plymouth Colony, enacted in 1634.
The mentioned "Court" is the "General Court -- the GOV'T. There was not as yet separation of powers, so the same "Court" enacted the laws, enforced the laws, and conducted trials of those who violated the laws.
The "list" mentioned was the list of those chosen and APPROVED for military DUTY.
Note that the law includes PENALTIES against those who violated military DISCIPLINE. So the FANTASY that militia consisted of random gun-nuts "volunteering" is FALSE.
And note that those approved for the duty were required to SWEAR AN OATH OF LOYALTY to the GOV'T/RULE OF LAW.
Note also that I include the source, which is how LITERATE -- and HONEST -- scholarship works. And that I have BOTH a first edition of this volue, published in 1836, and a reprint of it, in my law library.
___
Appendix 325
Establishment of a Millitary Company.
Aug. 29, 1643.
The Court hath allowed & established a military discipline to be erected and
mayntained by the Towns of Plimouth Duxborrow and Marshfield and have also
heard their orders and established them-viz-
Orders.
1. That the exercise be alwayes begun and ended with prayer.
2. That there be one procured to preach them a sermon once a yeare, viz at
the eleccon of their officers and the first to begin in Septr next.
3. That none shalbe received into this Millitary Company but such as are of
honest and good report & freemen not servants, and shalbe well approved by the
Officers and the whole Company or the major part.
4. That every person after they have recorded their names in the Millitary
List shall from tyme to tyme be subject to the Comaunds and Orders of the
Officers of this Millitary Company in their places respectively.
5. That every delinquent shalbe punished at the discretion of the Officers
and the Millitary Company or the major part thereof according to the order of
Millitary discipline & nature of the offence.
6. That all talking and not keepeing sylence during the time of the
exercise jereing quarrelling fighting depting collers wthout lycence or
dismission &c or any other misdemeanor, (so adjudged to be by the Officers and
the Company or the majr pt thereof) to be accounted misdemeanors to be
punished as aforesaid.
7. That every man that shalbe absent (except he be sick or some extrodinary
occation or hand of God upon him) shall pay for every such default II_s_. And
if he refuse to pay it upon demaund or within one month after then to appear
before the Company and be distrayned for it and put out of the list.
8. That if any man shall (upon the dayes appoynted) come wthout his armes
or wth defective armes shall forfaite for every trayneing day as followeth--
For want of a musket or a peece approved every time- - - - VI_d_
For want of a sword - - - - - - - - - VI_d_
For want of a vest - - - - - - - - - VI_d_
For want of bandelires- - - - - - - - - VI_d_
Six months tyme given to prvide in.
9. That every man that hath entred himself upon the military list and hath
not sufficient armes & doth not or will not prcure them wthin six months next
ensuing his name to be put out of the list.
10. That there be but sixteene pikes in the whole company (or at the most
for the third pt) viz--VIII for Plimouth VI for Duxborrow and II for
Marshfield.
11. That all that are or shalbe elected chiefe Officers in this Millitary
Company shall be so titled and forever afterwards be so reputed except he
obtayne a higher place.
12. That every man entred into the Millitary list shall pay VI_d_ the
quarter to the use of the Company.
13. That when any of this Millitary Company shall dye or depart this life
the company upon warneing shall come together with their armes and inter his
corpes as a souldier and according to his place and quallytye.
14. That all that shalbe admitted into this Millitary Company shall first
take the oath of fydellyty if they have not taken it already or els be not
admitted.
15. That all postures of pike and musket, motions rankes and files &c
messengers skirmishes seiges batteries watches sentinells &c bee alwayes
prformed according to true millitary discipline.
16. That all that will enter themselves upon this Company shalbe propounded
one day received the next day if they be approved.
___
"The Compact with the Charter and Laws of the Colony of New Plymouth: Together with the harter of the Council at Plymouth, and An Appendix, Containing the Articles of Confederation of the United Colonies of New England, and Other Valuabe Documents. Published Agreeably to a Resolution, Passed April 5, 1836" (Boston: Dutton and Wentworth, Printers to the State, 1836), Under the Suprevision of William Brigham.
1
-
@willmont8258 I already refuted the assertion that states can't have standing armies without the consent of Congress: EVERY state constitution has essentially the same Militia Clause -- distinguishing between "right of the people, etc./well-regulated Militia, and standing armies, both being also under the state legislature.
To again refute your false assertion about private citizens "acting on behalf of" gov't.:
See "Presser v. Illinois," 116 U.S. 252 (1886), the Second Amendment case distinguishing between the state's well-regulated Militia, and affirming the illegality of private "military organizations," fake "militia," armed gangs outside the law.
And see, citing "Presser," "District of Columbia v. Heller," 554 U.S. 570, 621 (2008), affirming that the Second Amendment "does not prevent the prohibition of private paramilitary [fake "militia"] organizations".
Paramilitary organizations are illegal in all 50 states. Pick your state:
https://www.law.georgetown.edu/icap/our-work/addressing-the-rise-of-unlawful-private-paramilitaries/state-fact-sheets/
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
Senator Toomey should read the Constitution:
Fourteenth Amendment
. . . .
S. 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. . . .
1
-
1
-
@emmittmatthews8636 That is Federal law. How many times was the Militia Federalized before the "Whiskey" insurrection?
And what are the dates of the Virginia statutes establishing PUBLIC ARMS, and also retrieving them, under PENALTY if NOT returned?
In 1794 -- AFTER the Second Amendment was ratified, the Militia was Federalized in response to the "Whiskey" insurrection.
Which of those two was well-regulated UNDER the rule of law -- Constitution and statute -- and which was ATTACKING the rule of law?
Did the Federal gov't need to arm Militia that was already armed by the states?
___
U.S. Constitution, Art. I., S. 8., C. 16: The CONGRESS shall have Power To provide for . . . ARMING . . . the Militia".
___
Chap. LXV.--An Act providing Arms for the Militia throughout the United States.
Section 1. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That there shall be provided, at the charge and expense of the government of the United States, thirty thousand stand of arms, which shall be deposited by order of the President of the United States, at suitable places, for the purpose of being sold to the governments of the respective States, or the militia thereof, under such regulations, and at such prices as the President of the United States shall prescribe.
Sec. 2. And be it further enacted, That the President of the United States be, and he is hereby authorized to cause all or any part of the arms herein directed to be provided and deposited for sale, which shall, at any time, remain unsold, to be delivered to the militia, when called into the service of the United States, proper receipts and security being given for the return of the same.
Sec. 3. And be it further enacted, That the monies arising from such sales shall be paid into the treasury of the United States, and the amount received shall be annually reported to Congress.
Sec. 4. And be it further enacted, That for the purpose of carrying this act into effect, the President of the United States shall be, and he is hereby authorized to draw from the treasury of the United States, a [577] sum not exceeding four hundred thousand dollars, to be paid out of any money in the treasury not otherwise appropriated.
Approved, July 6, 1798.
___
The Public Statutes at Large of the United States of America, from the Organization of the Government in 1789, to March 3, 1845. Arranged in Chronological Order. With References to the Matter of Each Act and to the Subsequent Acts on the Same Subject, and Copious Notes of the Decisions of the Courts of the United States Construing Those Acts, and Upon the Subjects of the Laws. With an Index to the Contents of Each Volume, and a Full General Index to the Whole Work, in the Concluding Volume. Together with the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, and the Constitution of the United States; and Also, Tables, in the Last Volume, Containing Lists of the Acts Relating to the Judiciary, Imposts and Tonnage, the Public Lands, Etc., Vol I. (Boston: Charles C. Little and James Brown, 1850), By Authority of Congress, Edited by Richard Peters, at 576.
____________
You keep trying to argue that there is a "right" to "take up arms" against the gov't -- against the rule of law -- based upon the FALSE malconstruction of the Second Amendment, and ignorance of the fact that "the right of the people to [keep and] bear arms" IS the well-regulated Militia.
As I've shown, the militia was ALWAYS UNDER the rule of law, and there was ALWAYS provision in law to SUPPRESS armed threats to gov't/rule of law.
And ignorance of the FACT that the Founders "attacked" and "overthrew" ZERO gov'ts. The well-regulated militia, under the state's governor as commander-in-chief, is an arm OF gov't, NOT intended to be a THREAT to gov't.
1
-
@emmittmatthews8636 "you ignore 232 years of text, history, laws, Supreme Court rulings, etc that prove you wrong."
I adhere strictly to LAW, which is what I've been posting IN YOUR FACE. You do nothing to address that; instead you engage in stupid-assed name-calling because you CAN'T refute the laws I put IN YOUR FACE.
___
From Supreme Court decision _Presser v. Illinois_, 116 U.S. 252 (1886):
"(115) . . . . It cannot be successfully questioned that the state governments, unless restrained by their own constitutions . . . have . . . the power to control and regulate the organization, drilling, and parading of military bodies and associations . . . . (116) The exercise of this power by the states is necessary to the public peace, safety, and good order. To deny the power would be to deny the right of the state to disperse assemblages organized for sedition and treason, and the right to suppress armed mobs bent on riot and rapine."
____
There is no "right" to "take up arms" against gov't/rule of law.-- which is INSURRECTION, which the FOUNDERS charged, tried, and convicted as being TREASON. See "Shays's" and "Whiskey" insurrections.
I have an education in law and have been researching and studying these issues for more than 30 years. That is why, punk, I am able to QUOTE VERBATIM LAW from the foundings of the colonies to and through the so-called "revolution," and to and through ratifications of Constitution and Bill of Rights.
The Founders engaged in every form of gun control including confiscation and prohibition -- and what they did is presumptively constitutional. Even Scalia admitted in Heller that gun control is Constitutional -- the EVIDENCE in LAW for that fact is OVERWHELMING, as I've been showing IN YOUR FACE.
1
-
@emmittmatthews8636 AGAIN: The Federalist is NOT LAW. And The Federalist "says" things that contradict your wishful thinking.
I post STATUTES -- LAW. You don't read them because you're too stupid to recognize what IS law and what isn't.
You also claim that Madison wrote the Second Amendment. That's the gun-nut view -- but it is NOT THE REALITY.
Madison codified PROPOSED amendments submitted by states with their notices of ratification of the Constitution. He then submitted that as a RESOLUTION for a bill of rights to the House for DEBATE.
The House, as a COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE, debated the DETAILS of the resolution -- and the SENATE did the same. Madison was not a Senator.
This is the Madison DRAFT of the proposed Amendment, which at that point and throughout most of the debates was the SIXTH. Note how he knew the difference between "people" -- the PLURAL -- and "person" -- the INDIVIDUAL --
___
This is the first draft of that which became the Second Amendment, which the gun industry/NRA calls the "Madison" Amendment -- but which it never quotes. [Here I clarify it for the logic-impaired]:
"The right of the people [PLURAL] to keep and bear arms [this phrase is the well-regulated Militia, and was drawn from four state constitution Militia Clauses] shall not be infringed; a well armed, and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country: but no person [INDIVIDUAL] religiously scrupulous of [AGAINST] bearing arms [in well-regulated Militia] shall be compelled [INVOLUNTARY] to render military service [in well-regulated Militia] in person."
Source: Creating the Bill of Rights: The Documentary Record from the First Federal Congress (Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press, Paperback, 1991), Edited by Helen E Veit, et al., at 12. (This volume is readily available from Amazon.)
Note the word "compelled": Militia service was a DUTY -- not a "right". And note the words "people" and "person": if a person -- individual -- claimed "religious" exemption from that DUTY, his case was scrutinized individually.
The only "individual" "right" debated was that last clause -- "but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service" -- and it was obviously voted down before the proposed Amendment was ratified. Thus the Second Amendment obviously does not protect "individual" ANYTHING.
1
-
@emmittmatthews8636 Personal attack noted -- as effort to avoid and ignore the law. I'll make it simple for you:
You say you agree with Presser which, consistent with, as I've shown, U.S. Constitution Art. I., S. 8., C. 15, prohibits "taking up arms" against the gov't. At the same time, you insist that there is a "right" to "take up arms" against the gov't. You can't have it both ways.
The entire history on the point, beginning at latest in the 1600s, is against your claim. That includes even the "Declaration of Independence".
The law is clear; all I do is show the the law, and the increasing specificity of it, as is shown in Presser . I leave the lying to those who, like you, reject the rule of law by claiming a "freedom" that does not exist. From the 1784 New Hampshire constitution:
"III. When men enter into a state of society, they surrender up some of their natural rights to that society, in order to insure the protection of others [AND OF THEMSELVES]".
"A system of Laws, and not of men." -- John Adams.
"Justice and the Rule of Law are to be ABOVE politics." -- John Adams.
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
lboy1990 You are running with a slogan ripped out of its controlling context, which I already explained:
JFK was not applying it to the US. He swore the oath to support and defend the Constitution. the Constitution PROHIBITS political violence -- not that you, obviously, care about the Constitution and rule of law. For you uneducated children it's all a video game, entertainment -- until it actually becomes real.
INFORM yourself:
___
No law protects private/fake "militia"
This chronology illustrates both the evolution, elaboration, and increasing specificity of law, and its continued consistency over centuries:
____
Militia Act from October 1658 (rendered in contemporary spelling):
"Military, [S.] 11. . . . It is Further Ordered, that henceforth all warrants for impressing [e.g., DRAFTING] & raising of soldiers for any expedition, shall be directed to the Committee of militia of the several Towns who may execute the same by the Constable & the said Committee are hereby impowered & required to suppress all raising of soldiers, but such as shall be by the authority of this government."
For emphasis:
"the said Committee are hereby impowered & required to SUPPRESS all raising of soldiers, but such as shall be by the authority of this government."
The Colonial Laws of Massachusetts. Reprinted from the Edition of 1660, with the Supplements to 1672. Containing Also, the Body of Liberties of 1641. (Boston: Rockwell & Churchill, City Printers, Published by Order of the City Council of Boston, 1889), William H. Whitmore, Record Commissioner, at 179.
In the above, "Committee of Militia" is part of the town gov't. Above the town gov't and "Committee" was a military command structure, in law, which included, at the top, the governor as commander-in-chief of the Militia. The governor was not going to "take up arms" against the gov't/himself.
___
Rendered in contemporary spelling:
At a GENERAL COURT Held at Boston the 3d of May 1676.
This COURT taking into Consideration the great Disappointment the Country hath suffered by reason of non-appearance of Soldiers Impressed [DRAFTED] for several expeditions: Do judge meet that every person Impressed [DRAFTED] as a Soldier for the Service of the Country, and neglecting to make his appearance according to Order: every such Foot Soldier shall pay the sum of four Pounds, and every Trooper shall pay the sum of six Pounds: and if their neglects or refusal be accompanied with Refractoriness, Reflection or Contempt upon Authority, such person shall be punished with Death, or some other Grievous punishment.
And the Committee of Militia in the several Towns where the offence is committed are hereby impowered and required to call before them all such as shall be Delinquents as is above expressed, and on Conviction of their neglect to give Warrant to the Constable to levy the said fines, which said fines shall be improved to purchase Arms for the Towns use; Provided it shall be in the power of the Council upon Petition of any person aggrieved, and just reason alleged and proved to make abatement of the said fines as in their wisdom and discretion they shall judge meet. And it is hereby Ordered that the return of all neglects and defects in the cases aforesaid, be sent to the Committee of Militia in the several Towns, who are hereby required to take care for the strict Execution hereof.
By the COURT Edward Rawson Secr.
The Colonial Laws of Massachusetts. Reprinted from the Edition of 1672, With the Supplements Through 1686. (Boston, MA: Rockwell and Churchill, City Printers, 1890), Edited by William H. Whitmore, at 343.
Law REGULATES -- which includes imposition of PENALTIES.
___
The "Declaration of Independence," which applied exclusively to England, includes a list of grievances against King George III, these two of which are directly on point:
"He has kept among us, in Times of Peace, Standing Armies, without the consent of our Legislatures."
"Legislatures" MAKE LAW, which REGULATE.
"He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power."
"Civil Power" is the gov't, which is by definition rule of law. As John Adams, who participated in writing the "Declaration," and authored the Massachusetts constitution, said: "A system of Laws, and not of men."
___
June 21, 1788: Ratification of the US Constitution completed:
"Art. I., S. 8., C. 15. The CONGRESS shall have Power To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute [ENFORCE] the Laws of the Union, SUPPRESS INSURRECTIONS, and repel Invasions."
"Art. I., S. 8., C. 16. The CONGRESS shall have Power To provide for organizing, ARMING, and disciplining, the Militia . . . reserving to the States [GOV'TS] respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed BY CONGRESS."
"Art. 4, S. 4. The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and . . . against domestic Violence."
"Amendment I. Congress shall make no law . . . abridging . . . the right of the people PEACEABLY to assemble."
"Amendment XIV., S. 3. No person . . . who, having previously taken an oath . . . to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof", shall be eligible for any US or state gov't office, civil or military.
___
The first Congress, both House and Senate, under the newly-ratified Constitution, debated and wrote the proposed Bill of Rights. The Debates of that which became the Second Amendment show its purpose was to establish a National Defense relying on the well-regulated Militia -- standing armies being feared.
September 28, 1789: Proposed Bill of Rights submitted to the states for consideration and ratification consisted of TWELVE proposed amendments; the first two were rejected, making the 3rd the 1st, and making the 4th the 2nd.
December 15, 1791: Ratification of remaining Ten Amendments completed.
___
Constitutional provisions are implemented by means of statutes:
May 2, 1792: "An Act to provide for calling forth the Militia to execute [ENFORCE] the laws of the Union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions."
May 8, 1792: "An Act more effectually to provide for the National Defense by establishing an Uniform Militia throughout the United States."
More than two years AFTER the Second Amendment was ratified, Congress enacted a Militia Act in response to the "Whiskey" insurrection:
November 29, 1794: "An Act to authorize the President to call out and station a corps of Militia, in the four western Counties of Pennsylvania, for a limited time."
And this is how, per Art. I., S. 8., C. 16, the Militia is ARMED:
July 6, 1798: "An Act providing Arms for the Militia throughout the United States.
Section 1. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That there shall be provided, at the charge and expense of the government of the United States, thirty thousand stand of arms, which shall be deposited by order of the President of the United States, at suitable places, for the purpose of being sold to the governments of the respective States, or the militia thereof, under such regulations, and at such prices as the President of the United States shall prescribe. . . .
___
Source of all US statutes above: The Public Statutes at Large of the United States of America, from the Organization of the Government in 1789, to March 2, 1845. Vol. I. (Boston: Charles C. Little and James Brown, 1845), By Authority of Congress, Edited by Richard Peters.
___
From Supreme Court decision _Presser v. Illinois_, 116 U.S. 252 (1886):
"(115) . . . . It cannot be successfully questioned that the state governments, unless restrained by their own constitutions . . . have . . . the power to control and regulate the organization, drilling, and parading of military bodies and associations . . . . (116) The exercise of this power by the states is necessary to the public peace, safety, and good order. To deny the power would be to deny the right of the state to disperse assemblages organized for sedition and treason, and the right to suppress armed mobs bent on riot and rapine."
___
From _District of Columbia v. Heller_, 554 U.S. 570, 621 (2008) citing _Presser_:
The Second Amendment "does not prevent the prohibition of private paramilitary organizations".
___
In fact, all 50 states classify such fake "militia" as "paramilitaries" and PROHIBIT them.
Pick your state:
https://www.law.georgetown.edu/icap/our-work/addressing-the-rise-of-unlawful-private-paramilitaries/state-fact-sheets/
___
1
-
@l.w.paradis2108 Misstatement of what law, law-illiterate?
This is fundamental to both reason and law -- and you are wrong, and you KNOW you're wrong:
___
From "A Man for All Seasons":
In the following, Roper was Thomas More's hot-headed and impulsive son-in-law--
Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!
More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you -- where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws, from coast to coast -- man's laws, not God's -- and if you cut them down -- and you're just the man to do it -- do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake.
___
Thomas More was a real person, and those are his words. But that fundamental is obvious and universal. You are showing willingness to throw that away, blind to the fact doing so would come for YOU.
1
-
@ernwrld Not in the US if you believe in rule of law. But one can't both believe in the rule of law sometimes and reject it in others.
There is no "right" of "revolution". For one, the "Declaration of Independence" does not include the word "revolution," it has never been law, and it applied exclusively to England.
For another, this is American and us law on the issue, up to date:
___
No law protects private/fake "militia"
This chronology illustrates both the evolution, elaboration, and increasing specificity of law, and its continued consistency over centuries:
____
Militia Act from October 1658 (rendered in contemporary spelling):
"Military, [S.] 11. . . . It is Further Ordered, that henceforth all warrants for impressing [e.g., DRAFTING] & raising of soldiers for any expedition, shall be directed to the Committee of militia of the several Towns who may execute the same by the Constable & the said Committee are hereby impowered & required to suppress all raising of soldiers, but such as shall be by the authority of this government."
For emphasis:
"the said Committee are hereby impowered & required to SUPPRESS all raising of soldiers, but such as shall be by the authority of this government."
The Colonial Laws of Massachusetts. Reprinted from the Edition of 1660, with the Supplements to 1672. Containing Also, the Body of Liberties of 1641. (Boston: Rockwell & Churchill, City Printers, Published by Order of the City Council of Boston, 1889), William H. Whitmore, Record Commissioner, at 179.
In the above, "Committee of Militia" is part of the town gov't. Above the town gov't and "Committee" was a military command structure, in law, which included, at the top, the governor as commander-in-chief of the Militia. The governor was not going to "take up arms" against the gov't/himself.
___
Rendered in contemporary spelling:
At a GENERAL COURT Held at Boston the 3d of May 1676.
This COURT taking into Consideration the great Disappointment the Country hath suffered by reason of non-appearance of Soldiers Impressed [DRAFTED] for several expeditions: Do judge meet that every person Impressed [DRAFTED] as a Soldier for the Service of the Country, and neglecting to make his appearance according to Order: every such Foot Soldier shall pay the sum of four Pounds, and every Trooper shall pay the sum of six Pounds: and if their neglects or refusal be accompanied with Refractoriness, Reflection or Contempt upon Authority, such person shall be punished with Death, or some other Grievous punishment.
And the Committee of Militia in the several Towns where the offence is committed are hereby impowered and required to call before them all such as shall be Delinquents as is above expressed, and on Conviction of their neglect to give Warrant to the Constable to levy the said fines, which said fines shall be improved to purchase Arms for the Towns use; Provided it shall be in the power of the Council upon Petition of any person aggrieved, and just reason alleged and proved to make abatement of the said fines as in their wisdom and discretion they shall judge meet. And it is hereby Ordered that the return of all neglects and defects in the cases aforesaid, be sent to the Committee of Militia in the several Towns, who are hereby required to take care for the strict Execution hereof.
By the COURT Edward Rawson Secr.
The Colonial Laws of Massachusetts. Reprinted from the Edition of 1672, With the Supplements Through 1686. (Boston, MA: Rockwell and Churchill, City Printers, 1890), Edited by William H. Whitmore, at 343.
Law REGULATES -- which includes imposition of PENALTIES.
___
The "Declaration of Independence," which applied exclusively to England, includes a list of grievances against King George III, these two of which are directly on point:
"He has kept among us, in Times of Peace, Standing Armies, without the consent of our Legislatures."
"Legislatures" MAKE LAW, which REGULATE.
"He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power."
"Civil Power" is the gov't, which is by definition rule of law. As John Adams, who participated in writing the "Declaration," and authored the Massachusetts constitution, said: "A system of Laws, and not of men."
___
June 21, 1788: Ratification of the US Constitution completed:
"Art. I., S. 8., C. 15. The CONGRESS shall have Power To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute [ENFORCE] the Laws of the Union, SUPPRESS INSURRECTIONS, and repel Invasions."
"Art. I., S. 8., C. 16. The CONGRESS shall have Power To provide for organizing, ARMING, and disciplining, the Militia . . . reserving to the States [GOV'TS] respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed BY CONGRESS."
"Art. 4, S. 4. The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and . . . against domestic Violence."
"Amendment I. Congress shall make no law . . . abridging . . . the right of the people PEACEABLY to assemble."
"Amendment XIV., S. 3. No person . . . who, having previously taken an oath . . . to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof", shall be eligible for any US or state gov't office, civil or military.
___
The first Congress, both House and Senate, under the newly-ratified Constitution, debated and wrote the proposed Bill of Rights. The Debates of that which became the Second Amendment show its purpose was to establish a National Defense relying on the well-regulated Militia -- standing armies being feared.
September 28, 1789: Proposed Bill of Rights submitted to the states for consideration and ratification consisted of TWELVE proposed amendments; the first two were rejected, making the 3rd the 1st, and making the 4th the 2nd.
December 15, 1791: Ratification of remaining Ten Amendments completed.
___
Constitutional provisions are implemented by means of statutes:
May 2, 1792: "An Act to provide for calling forth the Militia to execute [ENFORCE] the laws of the Union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions."
May 8, 1792: "An Act more effectually to provide for the National Defense by establishing an Uniform Militia throughout the United States."
More than two years AFTER the Second Amendment was ratified, Congress enacted a Militia Act in response to the "Whiskey" insurrection:
November 29, 1794: "An Act to authorize the President to call out and station a corps of Militia, in the four western Counties of Pennsylvania, for a limited time."
And this is how, per Art. I., S. 8., C. 16, the Militia is ARMED:
July 6, 1798: "An Act providing Arms for the Militia throughout the United States.
Section 1. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That there shall be provided, at the charge and expense of the government of the United States, thirty thousand stand of arms, which shall be deposited by order of the President of the United States, at suitable places, for the purpose of being sold to the governments of the respective States, or the militia thereof, under such regulations, and at such prices as the President of the United States shall prescribe. . . .
___
Source of all US statutes above: The Public Statutes at Large of the United States of America, from the Organization of the Government in 1789, to March 2, 1845. Vol. I. (Boston: Charles C. Little and James Brown, 1845), By Authority of Congress, Edited by Richard Peters.
___
From Supreme Court decision _Presser v. Illinois_, 116 U.S. 252 (1886):
"(115) . . . . It cannot be successfully questioned that the state governments, unless restrained by their own constitutions . . . have . . . the power to control and regulate the organization, drilling, and parading of military bodies and associations . . . . (116) The exercise of this power by the states is necessary to the public peace, safety, and good order. To deny the power would be to deny the right of the state to disperse assemblages organized for sedition and treason, and the right to suppress armed mobs bent on riot and rapine."
___
From _District of Columbia v. Heller_, 554 U.S. 570, 621 (2008) citing _Presser_:
The Second Amendment "does not prevent the prohibition of private paramilitary organizations".
___
In fact, all 50 states classify such fake "militia" as "paramilitaries" and PROHIBIT them.
Pick your state:
https://www.law.georgetown.edu/icap/our-work/addressing-the-rise-of-unlawful-private-paramilitaries/state-fact-sheets/
___
If you're going to apply law to the victim, but not to the murderer -- there was no connection between the two -- then you'll only be able to be a hypocrite spewing irrationalities. And that encourages more domestic violence, and that will inevitably result in the deaths of those even you will consider innocent.
You are digging a hole that does not emerge at reason.
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1
-
1