Comments by "J Nagarya" (@jnagarya519) on "New evidence potentially connects Luigi Mangione to CEO shooting, police say" video.
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@wholeNwon Those who jabber about "jury nullification" don't actually know how legal process works, or the civic DUTY of being a juror. They jury does not, as example, get to admit "evidence" or reject evidence. The introduction of the second knife in the movie "12 Angry Men," as example, would in reality result in a mistrial.
The jury instructions given by the court are: apply the law to the facts, the evidence. The evidence as to admissibility is fought over by the two sides in the case. The neutral arbiter -- the judge -- determines what evidence is admitted and what excluded.
"Jury nullification" is a "theory" pushed by law-illiterates and those who reject the rule of law. Who pride themselves in their staunch ignorance of the fact that "freedom" does not exist in conflict with law; it exists and is protected BECAUSE SECURED by WRITTEN law. So-called "sovereign citizens" reveal that self-"nullifying" stupidity by BOTH rejecting ALL law -- and then claiming rights that exist in the law they REJECT. Can't have it both ways.
But let's go to the real point: defending murder. There is nothing moral in defending murder. Defending that which is, actually, domestic terrorism. Words have consequences. They are foolish and irresponsible.
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From "A Man for All Seasons":
In the following, Roper was Thomas More's hot-headed and impulsive son-in-law--
Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!
More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you -- where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws, from coast to coast -- man's laws, not God's -- and if you cut them down -- and you're just the man to do it -- do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake.
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lboy1990 You are running with a slogan ripped out of its controlling context, which I already explained:
JFK was not applying it to the US. He swore the oath to support and defend the Constitution. the Constitution PROHIBITS political violence -- not that you, obviously, care about the Constitution and rule of law. For you uneducated children it's all a video game, entertainment -- until it actually becomes real.
INFORM yourself:
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No law protects private/fake "militia"
This chronology illustrates both the evolution, elaboration, and increasing specificity of law, and its continued consistency over centuries:
____
Militia Act from October 1658 (rendered in contemporary spelling):
"Military, [S.] 11. . . . It is Further Ordered, that henceforth all warrants for impressing [e.g., DRAFTING] & raising of soldiers for any expedition, shall be directed to the Committee of militia of the several Towns who may execute the same by the Constable & the said Committee are hereby impowered & required to suppress all raising of soldiers, but such as shall be by the authority of this government."
For emphasis:
"the said Committee are hereby impowered & required to SUPPRESS all raising of soldiers, but such as shall be by the authority of this government."
The Colonial Laws of Massachusetts. Reprinted from the Edition of 1660, with the Supplements to 1672. Containing Also, the Body of Liberties of 1641. (Boston: Rockwell & Churchill, City Printers, Published by Order of the City Council of Boston, 1889), William H. Whitmore, Record Commissioner, at 179.
In the above, "Committee of Militia" is part of the town gov't. Above the town gov't and "Committee" was a military command structure, in law, which included, at the top, the governor as commander-in-chief of the Militia. The governor was not going to "take up arms" against the gov't/himself.
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Rendered in contemporary spelling:
At a GENERAL COURT Held at Boston the 3d of May 1676.
This COURT taking into Consideration the great Disappointment the Country hath suffered by reason of non-appearance of Soldiers Impressed [DRAFTED] for several expeditions: Do judge meet that every person Impressed [DRAFTED] as a Soldier for the Service of the Country, and neglecting to make his appearance according to Order: every such Foot Soldier shall pay the sum of four Pounds, and every Trooper shall pay the sum of six Pounds: and if their neglects or refusal be accompanied with Refractoriness, Reflection or Contempt upon Authority, such person shall be punished with Death, or some other Grievous punishment.
And the Committee of Militia in the several Towns where the offence is committed are hereby impowered and required to call before them all such as shall be Delinquents as is above expressed, and on Conviction of their neglect to give Warrant to the Constable to levy the said fines, which said fines shall be improved to purchase Arms for the Towns use; Provided it shall be in the power of the Council upon Petition of any person aggrieved, and just reason alleged and proved to make abatement of the said fines as in their wisdom and discretion they shall judge meet. And it is hereby Ordered that the return of all neglects and defects in the cases aforesaid, be sent to the Committee of Militia in the several Towns, who are hereby required to take care for the strict Execution hereof.
By the COURT Edward Rawson Secr.
The Colonial Laws of Massachusetts. Reprinted from the Edition of 1672, With the Supplements Through 1686. (Boston, MA: Rockwell and Churchill, City Printers, 1890), Edited by William H. Whitmore, at 343.
Law REGULATES -- which includes imposition of PENALTIES.
___
The "Declaration of Independence," which applied exclusively to England, includes a list of grievances against King George III, these two of which are directly on point:
"He has kept among us, in Times of Peace, Standing Armies, without the consent of our Legislatures."
"Legislatures" MAKE LAW, which REGULATE.
"He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power."
"Civil Power" is the gov't, which is by definition rule of law. As John Adams, who participated in writing the "Declaration," and authored the Massachusetts constitution, said: "A system of Laws, and not of men."
___
June 21, 1788: Ratification of the US Constitution completed:
"Art. I., S. 8., C. 15. The CONGRESS shall have Power To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute [ENFORCE] the Laws of the Union, SUPPRESS INSURRECTIONS, and repel Invasions."
"Art. I., S. 8., C. 16. The CONGRESS shall have Power To provide for organizing, ARMING, and disciplining, the Militia . . . reserving to the States [GOV'TS] respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed BY CONGRESS."
"Art. 4, S. 4. The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and . . . against domestic Violence."
"Amendment I. Congress shall make no law . . . abridging . . . the right of the people PEACEABLY to assemble."
"Amendment XIV., S. 3. No person . . . who, having previously taken an oath . . . to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof", shall be eligible for any US or state gov't office, civil or military.
___
The first Congress, both House and Senate, under the newly-ratified Constitution, debated and wrote the proposed Bill of Rights. The Debates of that which became the Second Amendment show its purpose was to establish a National Defense relying on the well-regulated Militia -- standing armies being feared.
September 28, 1789: Proposed Bill of Rights submitted to the states for consideration and ratification consisted of TWELVE proposed amendments; the first two were rejected, making the 3rd the 1st, and making the 4th the 2nd.
December 15, 1791: Ratification of remaining Ten Amendments completed.
___
Constitutional provisions are implemented by means of statutes:
May 2, 1792: "An Act to provide for calling forth the Militia to execute [ENFORCE] the laws of the Union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions."
May 8, 1792: "An Act more effectually to provide for the National Defense by establishing an Uniform Militia throughout the United States."
More than two years AFTER the Second Amendment was ratified, Congress enacted a Militia Act in response to the "Whiskey" insurrection:
November 29, 1794: "An Act to authorize the President to call out and station a corps of Militia, in the four western Counties of Pennsylvania, for a limited time."
And this is how, per Art. I., S. 8., C. 16, the Militia is ARMED:
July 6, 1798: "An Act providing Arms for the Militia throughout the United States.
Section 1. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That there shall be provided, at the charge and expense of the government of the United States, thirty thousand stand of arms, which shall be deposited by order of the President of the United States, at suitable places, for the purpose of being sold to the governments of the respective States, or the militia thereof, under such regulations, and at such prices as the President of the United States shall prescribe. . . .
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Source of all US statutes above: The Public Statutes at Large of the United States of America, from the Organization of the Government in 1789, to March 2, 1845. Vol. I. (Boston: Charles C. Little and James Brown, 1845), By Authority of Congress, Edited by Richard Peters.
___
From Supreme Court decision _Presser v. Illinois_, 116 U.S. 252 (1886):
"(115) . . . . It cannot be successfully questioned that the state governments, unless restrained by their own constitutions . . . have . . . the power to control and regulate the organization, drilling, and parading of military bodies and associations . . . . (116) The exercise of this power by the states is necessary to the public peace, safety, and good order. To deny the power would be to deny the right of the state to disperse assemblages organized for sedition and treason, and the right to suppress armed mobs bent on riot and rapine."
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From _District of Columbia v. Heller_, 554 U.S. 570, 621 (2008) citing _Presser_:
The Second Amendment "does not prevent the prohibition of private paramilitary organizations".
___
In fact, all 50 states classify such fake "militia" as "paramilitaries" and PROHIBIT them.
Pick your state:
https://www.law.georgetown.edu/icap/our-work/addressing-the-rise-of-unlawful-private-paramilitaries/state-fact-sheets/
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@l.w.paradis2108 Misstatement of what law, law-illiterate?
This is fundamental to both reason and law -- and you are wrong, and you KNOW you're wrong:
___
From "A Man for All Seasons":
In the following, Roper was Thomas More's hot-headed and impulsive son-in-law--
Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!
More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you -- where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws, from coast to coast -- man's laws, not God's -- and if you cut them down -- and you're just the man to do it -- do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake.
___
Thomas More was a real person, and those are his words. But that fundamental is obvious and universal. You are showing willingness to throw that away, blind to the fact doing so would come for YOU.
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@ernwrld Not in the US if you believe in rule of law. But one can't both believe in the rule of law sometimes and reject it in others.
There is no "right" of "revolution". For one, the "Declaration of Independence" does not include the word "revolution," it has never been law, and it applied exclusively to England.
For another, this is American and us law on the issue, up to date:
___
No law protects private/fake "militia"
This chronology illustrates both the evolution, elaboration, and increasing specificity of law, and its continued consistency over centuries:
____
Militia Act from October 1658 (rendered in contemporary spelling):
"Military, [S.] 11. . . . It is Further Ordered, that henceforth all warrants for impressing [e.g., DRAFTING] & raising of soldiers for any expedition, shall be directed to the Committee of militia of the several Towns who may execute the same by the Constable & the said Committee are hereby impowered & required to suppress all raising of soldiers, but such as shall be by the authority of this government."
For emphasis:
"the said Committee are hereby impowered & required to SUPPRESS all raising of soldiers, but such as shall be by the authority of this government."
The Colonial Laws of Massachusetts. Reprinted from the Edition of 1660, with the Supplements to 1672. Containing Also, the Body of Liberties of 1641. (Boston: Rockwell & Churchill, City Printers, Published by Order of the City Council of Boston, 1889), William H. Whitmore, Record Commissioner, at 179.
In the above, "Committee of Militia" is part of the town gov't. Above the town gov't and "Committee" was a military command structure, in law, which included, at the top, the governor as commander-in-chief of the Militia. The governor was not going to "take up arms" against the gov't/himself.
___
Rendered in contemporary spelling:
At a GENERAL COURT Held at Boston the 3d of May 1676.
This COURT taking into Consideration the great Disappointment the Country hath suffered by reason of non-appearance of Soldiers Impressed [DRAFTED] for several expeditions: Do judge meet that every person Impressed [DRAFTED] as a Soldier for the Service of the Country, and neglecting to make his appearance according to Order: every such Foot Soldier shall pay the sum of four Pounds, and every Trooper shall pay the sum of six Pounds: and if their neglects or refusal be accompanied with Refractoriness, Reflection or Contempt upon Authority, such person shall be punished with Death, or some other Grievous punishment.
And the Committee of Militia in the several Towns where the offence is committed are hereby impowered and required to call before them all such as shall be Delinquents as is above expressed, and on Conviction of their neglect to give Warrant to the Constable to levy the said fines, which said fines shall be improved to purchase Arms for the Towns use; Provided it shall be in the power of the Council upon Petition of any person aggrieved, and just reason alleged and proved to make abatement of the said fines as in their wisdom and discretion they shall judge meet. And it is hereby Ordered that the return of all neglects and defects in the cases aforesaid, be sent to the Committee of Militia in the several Towns, who are hereby required to take care for the strict Execution hereof.
By the COURT Edward Rawson Secr.
The Colonial Laws of Massachusetts. Reprinted from the Edition of 1672, With the Supplements Through 1686. (Boston, MA: Rockwell and Churchill, City Printers, 1890), Edited by William H. Whitmore, at 343.
Law REGULATES -- which includes imposition of PENALTIES.
___
The "Declaration of Independence," which applied exclusively to England, includes a list of grievances against King George III, these two of which are directly on point:
"He has kept among us, in Times of Peace, Standing Armies, without the consent of our Legislatures."
"Legislatures" MAKE LAW, which REGULATE.
"He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power."
"Civil Power" is the gov't, which is by definition rule of law. As John Adams, who participated in writing the "Declaration," and authored the Massachusetts constitution, said: "A system of Laws, and not of men."
___
June 21, 1788: Ratification of the US Constitution completed:
"Art. I., S. 8., C. 15. The CONGRESS shall have Power To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute [ENFORCE] the Laws of the Union, SUPPRESS INSURRECTIONS, and repel Invasions."
"Art. I., S. 8., C. 16. The CONGRESS shall have Power To provide for organizing, ARMING, and disciplining, the Militia . . . reserving to the States [GOV'TS] respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed BY CONGRESS."
"Art. 4, S. 4. The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and . . . against domestic Violence."
"Amendment I. Congress shall make no law . . . abridging . . . the right of the people PEACEABLY to assemble."
"Amendment XIV., S. 3. No person . . . who, having previously taken an oath . . . to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof", shall be eligible for any US or state gov't office, civil or military.
___
The first Congress, both House and Senate, under the newly-ratified Constitution, debated and wrote the proposed Bill of Rights. The Debates of that which became the Second Amendment show its purpose was to establish a National Defense relying on the well-regulated Militia -- standing armies being feared.
September 28, 1789: Proposed Bill of Rights submitted to the states for consideration and ratification consisted of TWELVE proposed amendments; the first two were rejected, making the 3rd the 1st, and making the 4th the 2nd.
December 15, 1791: Ratification of remaining Ten Amendments completed.
___
Constitutional provisions are implemented by means of statutes:
May 2, 1792: "An Act to provide for calling forth the Militia to execute [ENFORCE] the laws of the Union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions."
May 8, 1792: "An Act more effectually to provide for the National Defense by establishing an Uniform Militia throughout the United States."
More than two years AFTER the Second Amendment was ratified, Congress enacted a Militia Act in response to the "Whiskey" insurrection:
November 29, 1794: "An Act to authorize the President to call out and station a corps of Militia, in the four western Counties of Pennsylvania, for a limited time."
And this is how, per Art. I., S. 8., C. 16, the Militia is ARMED:
July 6, 1798: "An Act providing Arms for the Militia throughout the United States.
Section 1. Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That there shall be provided, at the charge and expense of the government of the United States, thirty thousand stand of arms, which shall be deposited by order of the President of the United States, at suitable places, for the purpose of being sold to the governments of the respective States, or the militia thereof, under such regulations, and at such prices as the President of the United States shall prescribe. . . .
___
Source of all US statutes above: The Public Statutes at Large of the United States of America, from the Organization of the Government in 1789, to March 2, 1845. Vol. I. (Boston: Charles C. Little and James Brown, 1845), By Authority of Congress, Edited by Richard Peters.
___
From Supreme Court decision _Presser v. Illinois_, 116 U.S. 252 (1886):
"(115) . . . . It cannot be successfully questioned that the state governments, unless restrained by their own constitutions . . . have . . . the power to control and regulate the organization, drilling, and parading of military bodies and associations . . . . (116) The exercise of this power by the states is necessary to the public peace, safety, and good order. To deny the power would be to deny the right of the state to disperse assemblages organized for sedition and treason, and the right to suppress armed mobs bent on riot and rapine."
___
From _District of Columbia v. Heller_, 554 U.S. 570, 621 (2008) citing _Presser_:
The Second Amendment "does not prevent the prohibition of private paramilitary organizations".
___
In fact, all 50 states classify such fake "militia" as "paramilitaries" and PROHIBIT them.
Pick your state:
https://www.law.georgetown.edu/icap/our-work/addressing-the-rise-of-unlawful-private-paramilitaries/state-fact-sheets/
___
If you're going to apply law to the victim, but not to the murderer -- there was no connection between the two -- then you'll only be able to be a hypocrite spewing irrationalities. And that encourages more domestic violence, and that will inevitably result in the deaths of those even you will consider innocent.
You are digging a hole that does not emerge at reason.
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