Comments by "Dave M A C" (@davemac1197) on "Montgomery vs Eisenhower on Operation Market Garden's True Purpose | History Debate" video.

I sometimes wonder what planet people are on when they misread their own history... What terrain was ignored? What intelligence was ignored? What objectives were not achieved in time? What do you mean by "failed to allow for any deviation from his directives"? Where did he make any presumption about aircraft losses? Which Dutch ports could he possibly have secured? In what way was Market Garden not 90% successful? What would Bradley or Patton have done differently when their tanks reach Nijmegen and find the bridges still in German hands?
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Isn't that what happened in October/November 1944 with operation INFATUATE? I'm not that knowledgeable on the operation, but you seem to have described it to the best of my knowledge.
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... and back on planet Earth, Eisenhower graduated in the middle of his 1915 West Point class, a class in which 59 members later became General officers. In WW1 he served as a logistician and tank trainer in the United States, and was several times refused requests to serve in combat roles overseas. He held a number of staff positions between the wars but never held an active command above battalion level before the United States' entry into WW2. Montgomery, who served as a platoon commander in the trenches of WW1, only had four words for Eisenhower after their first meeting: "nice man, no soldier."
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@thevillaaston7811 - probably a good thing. He was a bit of a melt when incoming amounted to not very harsh words during their 10 September Brussels meeting and actually complained about it. For a country that has this weird culture of sons calling their fathers "Sir", they certainly have a completely inconsistent lack of respect for their 1,000 year old mother country... I would never treat my mother like this, would you?
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I see no "sleight of hand" in digging deeper into available sources than most YouTubers. The goals of Market Garden were to cross the Rhine to establish bridgeheads on the River Ijssel for further operations into Germany, which would cut off all German forces in the western Netherlands and also cut the V-2 supply lines to their launch sites on the Dutch coast. Market Garden does NOT end the war by Christmas - only further operations into Germany could do that, and Montgomery was already planning the next phase of a pincer with US 1st Army in his ongoing discussions with Eisenhower during Market Garden. 15.Armee was still a substantial force, originally expected to meet the Allied invasion of the continent in the Pas de Calais. I recommend The Army That Got Away - The 15.Armee in the Summer of 1944 by Jack Didden and Maartin Swarts (2022) for a detailed history and analysis.
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Did your school teach you this or do you just like to troll your British allies in YouTube comments? Montgomery had the measure of Eisenhower after their first meeting - "nice man, no soldier." Just look up their respective military careers to date and you should understand why.
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Totally correct, except that 15.Armee would technically be cut off from Germany by MARKET GARDEN if not from the WBN (German armed forces Netherlands) on the Dutch coast in 'Fortress Holland' and 1.Fallschirm-Armee west of the corridor, which would also be cut off by the operation. It was typical of Montgomery to go for a wider envelopment if a smaller one (aimed at just 15.Armee at Antwerp) was not possible or too costly. Montgomery made the point to Eisenhower in their 10 September meeting that a northwards advance to Arnhem would ease the opening of Antwerp, but that Eisenhower did not accept the analysis. Eisenhower did agree that successful operations to the north would open up wide possibilities for future action.
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My reading of the strategy is that first, Montgomery argued for a single thrust to Berlin involving his own 21st Army Group reinforced with US 1st Army, and this was finally shut down by Eisenhower at their 10 September Brussels airport meeting, because Ike wanted a broad front of all armies advancing to the Rhine and securing multiple crossings to provide multiple opportunities for later exploitation operations into Germany. It was Eisenhower that then wanted a pincer on the Ruhr industrial region by British 2nd Army from the north and US 1st Army from the south, after both had established their Rhine crossings, as opposed to Montgomery's single thrust idea to Berlin. Having settled that argument, they then turned their discussion to current operations. Montgomery had already cancelled the weather delayed Operation Comet, the Rhine crossing at Arnhem via Grave and Nijmegen by 1st Airborne Division and the Polish Brigade, that same morning, because of the worsening intelligence picture in the Netherlands. Instead, Montgomery proposed an upgraded replacement operation with three airborne divisions on the same axis of advance. The purpose of both Comet and Market Garden was to secure a Rhine crossing for British 2nd Army, not an advance to the Ruhr or Berlin. The supply situation was such that 2nd Army could get to the Rhine without Antwerp open - if it had priority of supplies. Antwerp's capacity was needed for Eisenhower's multiple advances into Germany by all armies. That is why both Montgomery and Eisenhower agreed that Comet/Market Garden had priority over opening Antwerp, while the Germans were still disorganised after the retreat from Normandy. So, the time to secure a Rhine bridgehead was now. Antwerp was to be cleared by the Canadian 1st Army after Market Garden, and during Market Garden they were re-positioning themselves around Antwerp, taking over positions vacated by British 11th Armoured Division, which was transferred to Market Garden's right flank to lead VIII Corps' advance. This explains why Montgomery thought the Canadians would be able to clear the Scheldt and open Antwerp, while he was going to the Ruhr (with British 2nd Army), and this was the bit he recognised after the war was a mistake, because the Canadians actually needed help - they couldn't do it on their own. Since the objective for Comet/Market Garden was to secure a Rhine crossing as a base for future operations into Germany, the first question was why Arnhem and not Wesel? Arnhem and Wesel represented the left and right flanks of the projected British 2nd Army sector of the Rhine, so they had to effect a crossing somewhere between those two places. The initital choice of Arnhem over Wesel for Comet was made by Montgomery and Browning overnight on 3/4 September, as recorded in Dempsey's (2nd Army) diary, but not the reasons for that choice. It's known that both Dempsey and Browning preferred the Wesel option, but obviously Montgomery had won an argument for Arnhem. I believe it was at this point that Browning had expressed his view they may be going "a bridge too far", because Arnhem involved an additional river crossing (the German Rhine splits into the Waal and Neder Rijn after crossing the Dutch border). It's speculated that Montgomery was concerned the axis of an advance to Wesel via a Maas crossing at Venlo would be close to the US XIX Corps boundary and he might end up having to share a Rhine crossing with the Americans, but we may never know. Whatever the initial motive for choosing Arnhem, the first reports of V-2 rockets landing on London, and believed fired from launch sites on the Dutch coast, reached Montgomery on 9 September and the rationale for going north to Arnhem and cutting the supply lines with an advance to the Zuider Zee took on greater importance. When Montgomery presented Market Garden as his Comet replacement, the target was still Arnhem for this stated reason, which Eisenhower readily accepted. In his memoir, Montgomery also argued that an advance to the north would also assist the opening of Antwerp, but he says that Ike did not accept that analysis. Regardless, Ike enthusiastically endorsed Market Garden because it fitted in with his broad front strategy instead of going to Berlin. The final point on Market Garden's destination - this was Nunspeet on the Zuider Zee coast, and not Arnhem for the reasons already explained. TIK's drawing of the Market Garden corridor in green, with the right flank beyond Arnhem following the River Ijssel is exactly right. In order to cross the Rhine in the Netherlands, you have to cross ALL the distributaries of the Rhine delta, and the final distributary before the German border is the River Ijssel, which splits from the Neder Rijn at Arnhem/Westervoort and flows north to the Zuider Zee at Zwolle. Once over the Arnhem bridge held by 1st Airborne Division, 43rd (Wessex) Infantry Division was to advance to Apeldoorn, with the attached Dutch Prinses Irene Brigade given the honor of liberating Apeldoorn and the Royal Palace Het Loo. The Guards Armoured Division would continue to Nunspeet on the Zuider Zee coast and deploy between Apeldoorn and Nunspeet. The 50th (Northumbrian) Infantry Division would also pass through Arnhem and secure forward Brigade bridgeheads on the River Ijssel at Westervoort and Doesburg, while the 43rd (Wessex) deployed between Arnhem and Apeldoorn secured forward Brigade bridgeheads at Zutphen and Deventer. The Germans may demolish these Ijssel bridges, but because they are not immediately required the infantry could make assault crossings and secure bridgeheads for engineers to construct Bailey bridges for future operations into Germany.
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@Bullet-Tooth-Tony- - I haven't seen a contemporary map showing a planned deployment for 52nd (Lowland) Division, only a map on the Vrienden Museum site (under 'Bibliotheek', page down to maps, and the map is 'Het operatie plan Market Garden – kaart uit Battlefield tour Royal Engineers 1945'). That shows the planned deployment for XXX Corps' divisions only. I imagine the 52nd were to relieve 1st Airborne at Arnhem and defend Deelen airfield, so they would be a backstop for 43rd and 50th Divisions on the Ijssel. Flevoland is a new province created by reclaiming part of the Ijsselmeer (former Zuider Zee) - it didn't exist in 1944.
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@Bullet-Tooth-Tony- - according to Montgomery's memoirs, he did make that point to Eisenhower and Eisenhower didn't accept the analysis, but they were agreed that the best time for Market Garden was as soon as possible before the Germans could re-organise, and Antwerp's port capacity was only needed for Eisenhower's broad front advances into Germany, it wasn't needed for Market Garden.
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If you're thinking of the Hunger Winter in the Netherlands, it was created by the Germans blocking the transportation of food from Dutch farms in the east to the major cities in the west of the country in retaliation for the Dutch rail strike on 17 September requested by the Dutch Government-in-Exile to support MARKET GARDEN.
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@stephenmccartneyst3ph3nm85 - correct, but Lelystad didn't exist in 1944 - it was Nunspeet on the old Ijsselmeer coast that was the final destination for the Guards Armoured Division. Flevoland was reclaimed from the Ijsselmeer and established as the twelfth and newest Dutch province in 1986, merging with the Noordoostpolder established in 1962. You had me going for a minute, Stephen.
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