Comments by "Sandy Tatham" (@sandytatham3592) on "Middle East Eye"
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Over the last 100 years more than 100 MILLION people around the world have been displaced due to the founding of new countries, the Partition of India being the largest example. Today the only so-called refugees that we hear about every day, and who get billions in funding every year, are the Palestinians. One fifth of Israeli citizens are from Arab families who accepted life under Jewish rule. They have equality under the law and participate in all levels of society, including politics and security.
In 1918 when the Ottoman Empire was defeated, a system was provided to give the all occupants of the Middle East land self-determination. The Jews were acknowledged as the indigenous peoples of historic Palestine and were granted the opportunity for a return to their ancestral homeland of less than 1%. The remaining 99% of the Middle East land was given to Arabs for self-determination.They blocked displaced Palestinians from being given citizenship in their new countries of Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc. The children of those displaced Arab refugees from 1948 are still being used as #geopolitical #weapons against the Jews.
The two-state solution is dead. Please let any Arab who is still hostile to Israel apply for resettlement in a third country, like my country of Australia, if the surrounding Arab countries continue to refuse them citizenship.
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Wow, "no air conditioners...". Good video though. There are legal avenues to Australian citizenship for genuine asylum seekers, those seeking refuge from torture, certain death or persecution, but those escaping "economic turmoil" or "in search of a better life" should NOT be processed before them. In early 2001 I volunteered to help socialise and teach English to a large group of boat people who arrived in Perth via Christmas Island. After months of hard work I found that most of the asylum seekers had unrealistically high expectations of what they would be offered. They made lots of complaints about how they were treated, even though they had free and independent accommodation in a beautiful heritage house, and were given weekly payments to survive quite comfortably. They hardly showed me any gratitude at all, except for a young Hazara boy from Afghanistan (his life was in danger from the Taliban) and two doctors escaping from Iraq (they had been forced to perform horrific amputations and torture on prisoners). These three were all suffering from mild PSTD, but the rest seemed mentally fine. Without exception, they were all Muslim men and most seemed somewhat resentful that they were being helped by an independent female. I was a 'do gooder' at the beginning of my volunteering, but now I wholeheartedly agree with Australia's policy of stopping the boats. It's not in any way helpful to incentivise people seeking the illegal route to asylum in Australia, or to any country.
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@mojo5517 : How can you be an occupier if you are the indigenous people of that land? The international community in 1920 (at the San Remo Conference) recognised the Jewish people as indigenous to their ancestral homeland. They were granted the right to self-determination in that land which comprises less than 1% of the defeated Ottoman Caliphate. All Arabs and others who were living there at the time were given equal rights under the law, and TODAY Arabs sit in the Knesset, they serve in the judiciary and security services, etc.
Arabs who live in the Palestinian Territories have their own laws and their own corrupt violent leaders. They should realise they are being used as geopolitical #weapons against the Jews. This situation will never end until UNRWA is dismantled and the Arab 'refugees' are treated in the same way as all other refugees in the world. The Arabs were granted self-determination over 99% of the defeated Ottoman Caliphate land. Those countries today are Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia. The Arab League refused to give citizenship to those Arabs who were 'displaced' from the Palestinian Territories, keeping them in limbo, even though the majority are from families which migrated to the British Mandate of Palestine after 1920 from the surrounding Arab countries, plus Yemen, Bosnia, etc.
The suffering of the Jewish people under the Nazi regime has little to do with this. It was the fact that the Ottoman Empire joined the side of the Germans in WWI and were DEFEATED that the Jews were promised their ancestral homeland if the Allied Powers won, which they did in 1918. Then at least five Arab nations went to war multiple times against the legitimate sovereign state of Israel in 1948 and they were DEFEATED each time. The land of Israel has strategic and ideological value to the western nations, so the west will always support the Jewish people of Israel. Get used to it.
Around 18 million South Asians were displaced in 1947 when Pakistan was created. Around 1.5 million Greeks and Turks were forced to shift countries in 1924 when Turkiye was created. About 800,000 Jews were ethnically cleansed from Arab countries after the creation of the Jewish state of Israel in 1948. That's just a few examples of other refugee movements, which we hardly hear about today. Those people assimilated into their new lands and got on with their lives.
Why should we treat those Arabs who were displaced from the British Mandate of Palestine any differently to other refugees? Why do they still get BILLIONS of dollars of funding? Why are they held as PERPETUAL refugees, generation after generation? Tell me one other refugee group that gets this 'special' treatment? #Discrimination
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@nasm3789 : Wars have consequences, especially if they are offensive wars. The Ottoman Empire joined Germany in the First World War against the British & Allies, and they were defeated in October 1918. The League of Nations made Britain the caretakers of Mandated Palestine in the interim period. Today that area is split into countries of Jordan and Israel. The Arabs have self-determination now over 99% of that Ottoman land which was liberated by the British & Allies, ie. Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan.
Israel was officially granted their own country by the League of Nations in 1947 on less than 1% of that liberated Ottoman Caliphate land. Within minutes of declaring independence, the surrounding Arab nations went to war against them. Israel won this war, and they won the subsequent wars, and they have increased their area of control to ensure security of their ancestral homeland (as promised in the Balfour Agreement due to their support to the British & Allies in WWI).
I'm totally fine with the Jews being rulers of the Holy Land today. It's a very important strategic and ideological place in the world to billions of people, and Israel is there to stay. It's not illegal. The move in the Arab and Islamic world towards normalisation of relations with Israel (Abraham Accords) is only going to grow stronger. Palestinians who do NOT accept Israeli rule should be resettled in other Arab countries, like millions of others who have been resettled over the last 100 years (India-Pakistan being the largest displacement of people). The so-called Palestinians are being used as pawns in the game by the Islamic world.
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@darkpearl348 : Please read my reply to Nas M on this comment. The Jews were also 'Palestinians' under the Ottoman Caliphate. They have had their ancestral homeland returned to them through the actions of the Islamic world going to war against the West. The Arabs today have self-determination on more than 99% of the collapsed Ottoman Caliphate land. Those Arabs who are still living in Israel should be resettled in the surrounding countries if they refuse to accept rule by the Jews. 20% of Israeli citizens are Arabs who chose to accept Jewish leadership, and they are in the top levels of politics, education, science, business, health, etc. today.
Stop portraying these Arab 'Palestinians' as #victims in the game against the Jews. Millions of people have been displaced over the last 100 years, including 850,000 Jews who were expelled from Arab lands, and millions of Indians-Pakistanis. They have all gotten on with their lives and today don't cry victimhood or complain about 'oppression, cruelty and inhuman behaviour'. Rule of law prevails in Israel, and it can be harsh if you don't abide by it.
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It seems EXTREMELY naive to talk about "promises" or "double dealings" in a time of The Great War. Britain was never going to relinquish the Holy Land to Arabs, especially when it's clearly the ancestral home of the indigenous Jewish people who supported the Allied Powers in WWI. The Holy Land of Israel has great geopolitical and ideological value to the Judeo-Christian west. What would have happened if the Germans-Ottomans had won the war? Would the Ottoman Turks, who had occupied the land for the past 400 years, have given it up for self-determination to the indigenous Arabs, Jews and others who currently lived there? Would they have broken up the Ottoman Middle East land and given 99% of it to the Arabs, as we see today in Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Jordan? I don't think so. The Allied Powers were under no international legal conventions to do so at that time but they did. The BEST outcome has been achieved, so make the most of it. Israel comprises less than 1% of the Ottoman Middle East land and the Jews share it with one-fifth Arab Israel citizens who have #equal rights under the law, and freedom of worship.
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@Brian Lucena : You have omitted to say that the Jews are the indigenous people of historic Palestine. They have had a continuous connection with the land, through their language, traditions, and religion. Some Jews have always lived there, though the majority were exiled for two thousand years. The League of Nations in 1920 recognised the Jews as the indigenous people and granted them the legal right to re-establish themselves in their ancestral homeland (San Remo Agreement). All non-Jews living in historic Palestine were to be accorded equal rights under the law, and Israel today includes 20% Arab-Palestinians who accepted to live in a Jewish State.
Those Arab-Palestinians who fled when the five Arab nations attacked Israel when it was founded are 'displaced people' and should by now have been resettled in the Arab countries, mainly in Jordan where the majority of people are Arab-Palestinians. An equivalent number of Jews were ethnically cleansed from their generational homes in Arab countries. Those 'displaced' Jews are now resettled in Israel, or in the US, Canada or Australia, etc. and are thriving.
Israel is legitimate and it's not going away. Thankfully we see some Arab nations now normalising relations with Israel through the #AbrahamAccords. Please stop using the so-called 'Palestinian' Arabs as political weapons in your hatred against the Jews. The Ottoman Caliphate was defeated in 1918 by the British, French & Allies. The dismembered lands were held in Mandate by British and French, and some years later, 99% of that Middle East land land was given to the Arabs for self-determination. Their countries today being Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. The Jewish State of Israel comprises less than 1%. Sadly they are still struggling to live peacefully and securely, but time is on their side. Do you also complain about the way the Arabs were given their land, or is it only the Jews that you hold to a very different standard?
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@pjq420 : Thousands of years of archaeological and historical evidence show that the Jewish people are intrinsically connected to that land. In 1920, after the collapse of the Ottoman Caliphate, the League of Nations (today's United Nations) laid the political foundation for the creation of the 22 Arab League States and one Jewish State of Israel. As set out in the San Remo Agreement, the Jews were recognised as the indigenous people of Israel (historic Palestine) and all non-Jews living there at that time were to be accorded equal rights. Today those Israeli Arabs, whose families accepted the State of Israel, participate in all walks of life including in government, law, education, health, technology and security.
If God has gifted the land of Israel to the Jews then that's a bonus for them, but international law is not based upon promises by God.
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@RationalAUS : My values are from the Judeo-Christian teachings as found in the Bible and in Biblical traditions, which most Western countries were founded on. They include equality for all people under the law (we are all created in God's image), separation of politics and religion (render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's), loyalty to one's government (not loyalty to a global 'ummah'), have only one legal marriage partner at a time (not up to four women to one man), the "Golden Rule" (love your neighbour as yourself), and religion being a personal relationship between God and man. I am very aware of the Islamic concept of Dar al-Islam (House/Abode of Islam) versus Dar al-Harb (House of War, ie. anywhere that Islam has not yet conquered, where Infidels, Kufr, disbelievers are in control). It also concerns me that all Muslims are obligated by their ideology to agitate to live under Sharia law wherever they are. Sharia is not compatible with Judeo-Christian values and it impacts non-Muslims as well, especially if the ambition of resurrecting a global Caliphate is achieved.
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Israel is an “indigenous rights” success story. The Jewish people are back in control in their ancestral homeland after the Arabs invaded and colonised the Holy Land and the Levant in the 7th century. When the British and Allies DEFEATED the Ottoman Caliphate ☪️ in 1918, there was a window of opportunity for the Jewish people, who supported the Allies, to be granted the right to reconstitute their ancestral homeland in a tiny <1% of the Ottoman land. Hejazi Arabs, who also fought in the side of the British with Lawrence of Arabia to win the war, were granted self-rule in 99% of the land, much of it oil-rich, today’s Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. One-fifth of Israeli citizens are Arabs who have equal rights with Jews. I stand with Israel…🇮🇱💙🙏
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Please ask Egypt to allow for a secured area to be set up outside the Rafah border, in Sinai. A field hospital and humanitarian camp could be erected for pregnant women, babies, children, mothers of small children, the sick and the elderly. Food, water, medical supplies and fuel could easily be delivered where Hamas, UNRWA and the looters can't get their hands on it. It's inhumane of Egypt to TRAP vulnerable people in a war zone when they could easily give permission for a camp, with secure fence around it, to be set up. Foreign countries have offered the money to do so. Please open that border for this purpose alone...🙏
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@jesuispalestinien9108 : The fact that religion is losing its grip on people everywhere today is not usually considered a boring topic. I agree that things run in cycles, but we have never had access to information like we have had in the last 20 years, and evidence and facts are beginning to matter to young people more than ever before. If you believe that Muslims all have a choice in being believers or not, then I suspect you haven't lived in a country run on Sharia law where there are negative consequences to such a choice. But I guess it might feel nice to cherry-pick lines out of scripture.
Israel is a legitimate nation state. It came about through the defeat and collapse of the Ottoman Caliphate in 1918. All of the Arab countries which exist on liberated Ottoman Empire Middle East land, comprising 99%+ of the area, came out of the same origins as Israel. The Jews were acknowledged in 1920 by the League of Nations as the indigenous people of historic Palestine. They were granted less than 1% of the total Ottoman Caliphate ME land on which to form their new nation state, with non-Jewish occupants being accorded equality under the law. Today we see Arab Muslim Israeli citizens participating in the highest levels of Israeli society, including government, security, education, science and technology, and they comprise 21% of the total population.
Those living in historic Palestine in 1948 who did NOT accept Jewish rule, and who fled when the five surrounding Arab nations attacked Israel, would be considered 'displaced peoples'. They should long ago have been resettled in adjacent Arab lands, or in other countries. Just as the 850,000 Jews who were 'displaced' from Arab nations have been resettled in Israel or other countries today and who got on with their lives without complaining.
Millions and millions of people have been 'displaced' through wars and founding of new nation states in the last 100 years. Why are the so-called 'Palestinians' the only group that still receives huge funding and publicity today? Why do Jordan, Syria and Lebanon still hold such people in 'refugee' camps? Why are Palestinians punished for selling property to Jews? Why do Palestinian people allow themselves to be weaponised as political pawns in the game of Muslims vs Jews, which we see is running out of momentum?
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@tarana9329 : The Jewish people are #indigenous to the Holy Land, not Germany. When the Allied Powers (British, French, etc) defeated the Ottomans in 1918 they were under no obligation to give the land to anyone, but "in a spirit of democracy" and in return for support in the war effort, they chose to offer it to the occupants for self-determination. The Arabs got 99% of the Ottoman Middle East land (today's Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Saudi Arabia). The Jewish land forms only 1% of the former Ottoman Middle East land, and one-fifth of Israeli citizens are Arabs whose families accepted equality under the law with Jewish rule. Those Arabs who were hostile to Jewish rule should have moved to Arab lands, or accepted the 1947 partition plan and moved there.
Millions of people around the world in the last century have been #displaced through the creation of new nation states. In 1924 around 1.5 million Greeks and Turks were forced into a population exchange when Turkey was created. In 1947 up to 18 million people in South Asia were forced to move to the newly created Pakistan or to India. After the creation of Israel in 1948, around 800,000 Jews were forced out or had to flee their multi-generational homes in Arab countries.
Why are the Arabs who were living in Palestine in 1948, and who sided with the five Arab militaries which attacked the new state of Israel, a 'special cause' compared with all of the other refugees around the world? Why did they get their own refugee organisation UNRWA which was designed to perpetuate the limbo status of the Arabs from Palestine (some who were still relatively new arrivals to the area) instead of resettling them elsewhere like other displaced peoples?
I suggest you watch the 5min video called "Does Israel Occupy the West Bank" where Professor Eugene Kontorovich explains the international precedents which led to the dividing up of the land after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in WWI.
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@NikoBellaKhouf2 : I understand that people might not be happy, but ever since humans existed they've moved around the globe, fought with each other, come to some resolution, and then got on with life. Over 750, 000 Jews were exiled or expelled from Arab countries over the last 100 years. Do they still WHINE about that today, or have they got on with their lives in their new countries?
I'm pleased that 'forced population exchanges' are a thing of the past thanks to international conventions. It seems that wherever Islam grows in power it forces its will on the minority populations, so your comment about it "not being necessary" is just nonsense. Pakistan, Bangladesh, Turkey, Iraq, Egypt, Lebanon, etc. are all fairly recent examples of the persecution and exile of minorities living under Islamic rule.
Israel already shares the land with 21% Arab Israeli citizens, most of them being Muslims. They have #equal rights under the law with Jews and other minorities, and they have freedom to worship. The vast majority of these Arab Israelis say they prefer Jewish rule to that of the corrupt Arab Palestinian rule.
Wars have consequences. When the Ottoman Caliphate was DEFEATED in 1918, they didn't get to choose who ended up with what land. However, the Arab occupants of the Middle East were granted self-rule over 99% of that broken-up Ottoman land!!! The #indigenous Jews of Israel want less than 1% and they SHARE it with Arabs. I suggest you watch the 5min video called "Does Israel Occupy the West Bank" where Professor Eugene Kontorovich explains the international precedents which led to the dividing up of the land after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in WWI.
As for your comment below that "we're only getting stronger", that's sadly delusional. It's Israel which is getting stronger. Arab countries are finally starting to openly normalise their relations with Israel via the #AbrahamAccords. I don't hate anyone. I encourage my Muslim friends to use better critical analysis and to stop believing the propaganda.
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When the Ottoman Empire was DEFEATED by the Allied Powers, it ceded its land to Britain, France, etc. who were under no obligation to give the land to anyone in 1918, but they did. Today, Arabs have self-determination in 99% of that Ottoman Middle East land which was LIBERATED by the Allies. Israel is less than 1% of that land, and one-fifth of Israeli citizens are Arabs, who accepted life in the Jewish state of Israel. They have equal rights and freedom of worship. The Jewish people supported Britain in the war effort, as did the Hejazi Arabs, who fought with Lawrence of Arabia. The so-called 'Palestinian Arabs' fought on the side of the Ottoman Turks, or they stayed neutral. Do you complain that Kurds and Assyrians, and other unique cultural groups, didn't get self-determination in their homelands. Lands that had been invaded and conquered by Arabs centuries ago? Or do you only complain that the #indigenous Jewish people fought for, and were granted the right to self-determination in their ancestral homeland? If so, that makes me feel a bit sick...😬
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@igueh : I'm Australian, born in New Zealand, and currently living in Egypt. But I guess you are talking about Israel and Israeli citizens? The Allied Powers (Britain, France, etc) were under NO legal obligation to hand over the Ottoman Empire land to the current occupants for self-determination after 1918, but they did. And Arabs got 99% of that land. It's important to remember that the Holy Land has ideological and strategic value for the Judeo-Christian West, so are you surprised that their leaders wanted the #indigenous Jewish people to once again live in their ancestral homeland so that there would be freedom of religion for all faiths? Under Islamic control, there is never freedom of religion.
The Ottoman Empire and the Arab countries lost all of their wars. They do NOT get to choose what happens to the Holy Land. Those Arab families who decided to accept life under Jewish rule are today 21% of the citizens of Israel. They have #equal rights under the law, with a better living standard than most Arabs in the surrounding countries. But you still complain? Do you want ALL of the Middle East to be under Islamic control, as it once was? Sorry, but that's not going to happen. Peace and blessings to you...🙏
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@DunkmeisterFresh : I suggest you learn more about how the new nation-states of Israel, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and Syria were established out of the DEFEAT of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. Due to the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the Arabs gained self-determination over more than 99% of the Middle East land. The Jews were recognised in 1920 by the League of Nations (today's UN) as the indigenous people of historic Palestine and they were permitted to establish a secure homeland there, on less than 1% of the ME land, under the condition that all non-Jews have 'equality under the law'. Those Arab families who ACCEPTED the Jewish state of Israel in 1948 today comprise 21% of Israeli citizens who have 'equality under the law'.
Those who REJECTED Israel and stood on the side of the seven Arab nations which went to war against Israel to obliterate it are the so-called 'Palestinians' we see today who are still being used as "weapons" against the Jews. It's time they stopped playing victim. We should support them being relocated to third countries if they are still HOSTILE to the Jews, or if they are fed up with their corrupt terrorist leaders. The key to this horrible problem is that the Arab League forbids giving citizenship to the 'Palestinians' because they are still being used to continue the efforts to obliterate Israel. Thankfully this is all changing with the #AbrahamAccords and the fact that Islam is losing power all over the world.
I would absolutely not hesitate to move if China invaded my country, Australia!!! I'm not interested in playing the 'victim'. I would happily begin a new life in a supportive country. I would be grateful that I was safe and secure. I'm not interested in revenge or 'an eye for an eye' which is the code that the Qur'an promotes to Muslims. It also sickens me that Muslims are obligated by Qur'an 2:191 to "drive them [the Jews] out from where they drove you out...". Thankfully a growing number of Muslims now openly reject parts of Islam, and we are seeing big changes in the Middle East.
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@Hanan Albataineh: Thousands of people leave Gaza and the West Bank every day to work in Israel. They need permits and security clearance because there is a huge terror risk in Israel which saw 19 people being killed recently, including Arab Muslim Israeli citizens. The so-called 'Palestinians' do have access to water but it's controlled by their corrupt leaders who are millionaires or even billionaires and who do little for their people. Some of their leaders live safely and luxuriously in Qatar and Turkey, where their children go to expensive private schools.
Gaza is not occupied but it is under siege by Israel and Egypt because it harbours probably the largest number of Islamic jihad organisations in the world. You might call this jihad terror a form of 'resistance'. Others call it a high security risk.
There is no 'Palestine' under international law. The Palestinian leaders have rejected EVERY offer of a peace plan, and seven Arab nations went to war to obliterate the new state of Israel in 1948–49, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982, and 2006. These Palestinian Arabs do not recognise the state of Israel. Around 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab Muslims whose families DID ACCEPT life under Israeli rule in 1948. Today they live with equal rights under the law.
Many Arab nations no longer actively support the 'Palestinian' resistance movement, as we see with the #AbrahamAccords. The victim status can only be perpetuated for so long, particularly when we see the corruption of all of the leaders.
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@Hanan Albataineh: What is Hezbollah resisting? Do they disagree with the legitimacy of the state of Israel? Which country will they go for next? They sound like criminal thugs to me. We all know that there are peaceful ways to deal with things that you don't believe are legal.
When the Ottoman Empire was DEFEATED and collapsed in 1918, Arabs of the Middle East were granted self-determination over 99+% of the Ottoman Empire Middle East land, in today's Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. In 1920 at the San Remo Conference, the League of Nations (today's UN) recognised the Jews as the indigenous people of 'historic Palestine'. They were given permission to form their own nation-state in 'historic Palestine', providing that equal rights were given to the non-Jewish people who were also living there at the time. This has clearly been done. Today Israel has over two million Arab non-Jewish citizens. There are Arab Israelis in the Knesset, in security, in the IDF, in the Supreme Court, and in the top levels of industry, education, technology and science. They have equal rights under the law.
Even though the same international agreements created Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Jordan, it is only Israel that is still struggling to be secure on less than 1% of that collapsed Ottoman Empire land. They didn't 'steal it'. That's a lie that unhappy Muslims appear to spread. They want to perpetuate the status of 'victimhood' for Muslims. It's sickening.
What is your personal stake is in this conflict? Do you live there? Do you also believe in resisting things that are deemed legitimate under law? Do you want to perpetuate 'victimhood' rather than supporting ALL people in finding a better life?
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@lifeisreallyshortknowyourr4724 : So I didn't "misquote from the Qur'an" but I forgot to provide the 'conditions' upon which the Holy Land was promised to them? Where are these 'conditions' stated? Aren’t Allah's promises eternal? I understand that the Qur'an affirms the Torah, so where is there any evidence that it was ever changed? Please educate me. I've found many prominent Muslims and Muslim scholars who strongly believe that Jerusalem belongs to the Jews. [Note: I'm not religious, so none of this is a personal belief of mine.]
This is from an article by Dr Qanta Ahmed...
"But as a believing Muslim observing Islam, I am compelled by the Quran to support Israel’s sole claim to the Holy Land; the Quran says it is so. The 80,000-word document 1.6 billion Muslims accept as the revealed word of God, the Quran, is categorical about the destiny of Israel and the people who can claim its ownership.
The Quran states: “Moses said to his people: O my people! Remember the bounty of God upon you when He bestowed prophets upon you, and made you kings and gave you that which had not been given to anyone before you amongst the nations. O my people! Enter the Holy Land which God has written for you, and do not turn tail, otherwise you will be losers.”
Nowhere does the Quran make mention of the Muslims’ claim to the Holy Land. Instead, God reveals in the Quran that The Holy Land is designated for the followers of Moses. Because the Promised Land is theirs according to the Quran, only the followers of Moses may determine where their capital must lie."
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@Hanan Albataineh: I'm very sorry for those families who were exiled. I would say this occurred mostly on the basis of religion, not race, because Islam obligates Muslims to fight against the Jews. And remember that 850,000 thousand Jews were also expelled from their multi-generational homes in Arab countries where they were no longer safe. Wars are horrible. But you have to get on with your life and stop playing the #victim 73 years later.
Millions of people have been 'displaced' over the last 100 years due to the creation of new nation states. The creation of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan saw 13 million South Asian Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and Christians fleeing, leaving behind property, in fear of their lives or of being raped. China persecuted the Tibetans in the 50s and an estimated 150,000 peaceful Tibetan Buddhists fled from their homeland and an estimated 87,000 were killed. The creation of Turkey saw in 1922 a vast population exchange of around 1.6 million Greeks and 400,000 Muslim Turks. And what happened to the 40 million Kurds who also have a claim for their own nation?
Can you tell me why today we only focus on the #Palestinian problem? Why does this get special UN funding and so much publicity?
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@soniahemmati2372 : I get where you are coming from regarding Arabs also being considered indigenous, but it's not my rule. It's the League of Nations who recognised the Jews as the indigenous people of historic Palestine, deserving of the right to return to their ancestral homeland (San Remo Resolution of 1920). The Arabs were granted the right to self-determination over the REMAINING collapsed Ottoman Empire, comprising more than 99% of that land. Those Arabs who currently lived in historic Israel were to be guaranteed equal citizenship to the Jews, and that's the situation today where Arabs sit in the Knesset, in the highest places in judiciary, health, education, technology and business, as well as the security services. If the Arabs had not conducted a war of aggression against the Jews in 1948, during which thousands of Palestinian Arabs fled to Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria hoping to return within days after the Jews had been obliterated, we might have seen more of an equal demographic balance today.
As for the Golan Heights, they contain over 100 ancient synagogues and are therefore considered part of historic Israel, though some deal was made by Britain with France at the end of WWI to tack that area onto the French Mandated area of today's Syria. I'm not interested in the Bible but in the archaeological evidence for the traditions of the Jewish people dating back thousands of years, certainly predating that of the Arabs. The Golan Heights was only annexed by Israel AFTER the wars of aggression against them by Arabs. This has validity in international law. I stand for the rights of all indigenous peoples where pragmatic to have sovereignty in their own ancestral lands, so long as equal rights are granted to others who currently live there. I am disappointed that the Kurds were not granted the right to self-determination in their ancestral homeland by the League of Nations conference in 1920. Do you support indigenous rights in principle?
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@محمود-ق4و2ح :
Do you have evidence for "financial aid and backing from many Western governments" decreasing or ceasing any time soon? Israel has very important strategic and ideological value for the West, and I don't see that changing in the near future. Plus normalisation of relations between Arab nations and Israel is strengthening all the time.
Britain and the US are not surrounded by hostile nations which have gone to war against them many times in the last 74 years, nor do they have very large numbers of hostile citizens living within their countries. There is currently a terror wave in Israel with 19 people killed, and Hamas has been calling for Muslims to attack Israeli citizens with knives, axes and guns. So Israel most definitely needs to operate under Defence (Emergency) Regulations. Why not look also at the French police? They are battling unrest at times and they are often seen in "full riot-control gear". Just because a government has 'legitimacy' it doesn't mean there won't be any civil unrest.
Internal disputes are always a factor. But let's not forget that two million of Israeli citizens are Arab Muslims and the majority of them are happy living with equal rights to Israeli Jews. They participate at the highest levels in government, law, security, education, health and technology. Plus a recent survey showed that 93% of East Jerusalem Arabs prefer Israeli rule to Palestinian Authority, compared with a 2020 survey which had less than half preferring Israeli rule. Any Arabs who are hostile to the State of Israel should apply to be resettled in a third country, preferably one which has a similar culture such as one of the 22 Arab nations.
I agree there is constant flux with the situation in Israel, both with the elected government and loyalties of the people, but I see things improving rather than deteriorating. Please don't be guilty of using the so-called 'Palestinians' as political weapons against the Jews.
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@محمود-ق4و2ح : Islam is a complete way of life. The 'deen' includes law and politics. There is little freedom to leave the ideology, or to be openly critical of it. That is 'oppressive' to a western way of thinking. Ex-Muslims want to live where there is equality for all under the law, where there is freedom of press, freedom of conscience, and where they are not living with Muslims who are obligated to "enjoin what is right and forbid wrong" [Qur'an 3:110]. I am back in Sinai Egypt after 30 years and I found that the previously moderate Sufi Muslims are now all Salafis because there is so much pressure to conform to Islamic fundamentalism in Egypt. Most Muslim-majority countries have governments which are either theocracies (which is understandable), military dictatorships, or monarchies. If you grew up in the UK and have not spent years living in a Muslim country you might not understand what I'm talking about. If a Muslim commits apostasy in one of these countries, he stands to lose his job, his citizenship status, his marriage and children, to name just a few things. Many end up in prison for years because they dared to speak out and say they are no longer believers.
Thank you for your book recommendations. When I was in Srinigar Kashmir in 2017 I was given a copy of Alfred Guillaume's authoritative translation of Ibn Ishaq's "The Life of Muhammed". It was a fascinating read. I discovered that the prophet had people killed just for writing poetry or singing songs mocking his ideology and his beliefs. And on one night he had all of the male members of the Jewish Banu Qurayza tribe beheaded on what seemed like very controversial evidence for wrongdoing. The females and children were taken as slaves. And you say this is the behaviour of a pious religious leader? The best 'pattern of conduct' for all time? Another problem with such biographies is that they are written 100 years after the actual life of Muhammed. There is little to no hard evidence that he even existed, though I do believe he might have.
I was invited by Moroccan friends to become a Muslim more than ten years ago. I said I must first study the ideology. And I quickly saw that I couldn't accept the second-class status given to women. Yes people do convert to Islam but most of them take the 'shahada' before studying the ideology in any depth. Islamic scholars estimate that less than three out of ten converts remain believers of the ideology after a few years. They fade away and no-one hears about them because they are under threat of punishment if they commit apostasy and talk openly about it. Females often convert to marry Muslim men, and I've heard many stories as to how they have to give up their children when they lose their faith in Islam and the man divorces them. We know in history that most of the Islamic conquests came about through the sword and subsequent oppression of the defeated population as 'dhimmis'. They converted to escape humiliation, uncertainty, and the payment of jizya. Many also converted to do business with Muslim traders or to obtain equal legal status and rights under an Islamic government.
I've watched many videos by Yasir Qadhi and Omar Suleiman. I was happy to see that both of them acknowledged that Muhammed married and had sexual relations with Aisha when she was a prepubescent child of nine years old. At least they were honest. Again, I can't accept that this is the 'pattern of conduct' for all time, ie. #sunnah. I think of it every time I see a small girl married off to an older man in countries like Yemen, which I visited in 2008. I have never found anything of 'beauty' for women and girls in Islam. I found domestic violence, guardianship, polygamy, marital rape and child marriage.
Sorry to end on such a bad note but I do appreciate your openness to have this discussion...🙏
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@erwi2836 : Over two million Arab Muslims live as FREE citizens of the Jewish state of Israel TODAY. They are from families which chose to accept life in the Jewish state in 1948. They have #equal rights with Jews and other minorities such as Arab Christians, Druze, Circassians, etc, and they have #freedom of religion. Israel should extend sovereignty over all of their ancestral Jewish land, from the Jordan River to the sea, and then give 'residence status' to the so-called Palestinians who choose to remain in their homes. That way they have to abide by the law. They don't get national voting rights but they do get access to education, health, and all the benefits of living in a developed country like Israel. And they vote for their own civil leadership, like mayors and town councils. Around 190,000 East Jerusalem Arabs already live with 'residence status' in Israel and they don't seem to want to leave.
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@adrianjoseph1267 : Both the Jews of the UK and the Hejazi Arabs supported the British in WWI. They were each promised the right to self-determination should the Allied Powers defeat the Germans and Ottoman Empire. Today the Arabs have self-determination in 99% of the land, in countries called Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Jordan, much of the land oil-rich. Israel is a tiny less than <1% of the Middle East Ottoman land, and the Jews share their country with 21% Arabs and other minorities who accepted life in the Jewish state of Israel.
DNA is not a criteria for being #indigenous. You also need legal approval for DNA testing in many European countries, such as France, so please stop with this genetic nonsense. "Indigenous Peoples are distinct social and cultural groups that share collective ancestral ties to the lands and natural resources where they live, occupy, or from which they have been displaced" is the World Bank definition. When Jewish slaves were taken to Europe by the Romans, they maintained their indigenous status even though they were #displaced. When Jews were dispersed around the world in order to survive economically, they maintained their indigenous status even when living in the #diaspora. Around 60% of Israeli Jews today were 'cleansed' from their multi-generational homes in Arab countries after the founding of Israel in 1948.
Israeli Arabs have "equal rights" under the law. There are Israeli Arab Muslims in the Knesset, on the Supreme Court, as city Mayors, and in the highest echelons of business, education, health and technology. They also serve in the IDF and other security groups. I suggest you watch the five minute PragerU video called "Does Israel Occupy the West Bank?" where international law professor Eugene Kontorovich outlines the precedent for international property law as it applies to Israel. The Arabs have no legal right to any of the land from the river to the sea. They rejected the partition offer of 1947. Now they forfeited any moral right to a state.
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@sarahgold3363
So you are "a fervent believer in the existence of Israel"? And you also advocate for Israel to grant citizenship to FIVE million Arab Muslims? This is in addition to the TWO million Arab Muslims who already have Israeli citizenship, which includes national voting rights? Do you understand that this would sign the death warrant of Israeli Jews? And possibly the death warrant of those Israeli Muslims who are descended from families who accepted citizenship in 1948, a decision which is deemed 'haram' (treasonous) by devout Muslims?
My resolution would be much more pragmatic. It would be for the surrounding Arab nations to grant citizenship to the 'Palestinian' Arabs who have been held as perpetual stateless refugees, then for Israel to offer them residence visas, which could include a pathway to citizenship. That way they would get all the rights of security, civil law, economic benefits, education, health, property ownership, voting rights for civil leadership, etc. but not national voting rights. And they could also be deported if they commit violence or any other illegal act.
I guess you are aware that giving citizenship to the 'displaced' Arabs was forbidden, or at least discouraged, by the Arab League after they lost the 1948 war? They have been held in limbo and used as geopolitical #weapons against the Jewish state of Israel. Lebanon provides the clearest example of a host state's denial of rights, the use of refugees as political #pawns, and illegal discrimination ( hrw.org/ legacy/ campaigns/ Israel/ return/ arab ).
As for "divided up the land spoils without any consideration for the people that already lived there", what do you think the Ottoman Empire would have done if they had not been defeated? Would the Arabs have self-determination in 99% of the Ottoman Middle East lands today? Would Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Jordan have self-rule and the right to constitute their individual countries on the basis of their interpretation of Islamic Sharia?
The Allied Powers were under NO legal obligation in 1918 to give up the land for self-determination to the occupants... but THEY DID. Israel is on LESS than 1% of that dismembered Ottoman Middle East land, and one-fifth of Israel's citizens are Arabs who have equal rights with Jews and freedom of worship. But you still complain...🙄
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@BenJamin-rt7ui : Each situation is different and it depends on whether the indigenous peoples seek that kind of control. Australia recently had a referendum to "enshrine an Indigenous Voice to Parliament". Many strong indigenous leaders were totally against it, arguing that they wanted to be treated just like all other Australians, so it failed. New Zealand is going through a different process, maybe similar to the Americas, but I don't know a lot about it. I think it's more important for individual countries to recognise and promote their indigenous cultures which, in many cases, have been lost.
I've just been in Morocco where the Berber-Amazigh people had been struggling for decades for the right to use their own language, rather than just Arabic/French. In 2011 it was finally approved as an official language and is now included on public buildings and taught in 31% of schools. Many Moroccans who don't believe in Islam want to reduce the influence of Islam/Arabisation that Morocco underwent after the Islamic conquests, though that's far off in the future because 'blasphemy' (being critical of Islam) still carries serious punishment at this time. But the Berbers are the majority people in Morocco so, if/when Islam reduces in power, it could happen.
Israel was in a unique position where, on the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in 1918, the British and French were ceded control of the land. They had promised their allies, the Hejazi Arab nationalists and the Zionists, territorial compensations for their support during World War I. In 1922 the League of Nations acknowledged the Jewish people as having historic connections to their ancestral land and agreed to the “establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people" so long as the civil and religious rights of the current occupants was not compromised. Today over two million Israeli Arabs (mostly Muslim) have equal rights and freedom of worship, and they participate in all levels of society and government. If Iran's Islamic regime was overthrown, that would give the indigenous groups there a chance to reclaim sovereignty of their ancestral homelands, ie. the Kurds, Balochis, Azerbaijanis, etc. The same could one day happen with Pakistan, which is a mixture of Punjabis, Balochis, Kashmiris, Kalashas, Pashtuns, etc. I would definitely support the Tibetans having sovereignty in their ancestral homeland, and maybe the East Turkestan Uyghurs, though there is little chance of China ever allowing this.
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@refurb0987 : The Jewish people were acknowledged by the League of Nations as the #indigenous people of historic Palestine in 1920 at the San Remo Conference. A large number of Arabs flooded into Palestine only AFTER the British and the Zionists had created economic opportunities. They are NOT indigenous to the land. They came from Egypt, Syria, Arabia, Kurdish areas, Bosnia, Turkey, etc. Tragically people do get "displaced" when wars happen or when new countries are founded. Around 18 million people were displaced when India was partitioned in 1947. Do they still moan and whine today? Did they get their own UN organisation to keep them as perpetual refugees to be used as weapons, like the Palestinians are used against the Jewish state of Israel?
What right did the so-called Palestinian Arabs ever have to their own country? The British Mandate for Palestine had already been carved up and 75% given to the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan for Arabs in 1921. Around twenty percent of Arabs who were occupants of Palestine in 1948 remained in Israel, some 156,000 people, and today they have equal rights with Jews. They sit in the Knesset, on the Supreme Court, work in the highest places in business, banking, education, health and technology. They made a great choice...🙏
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@coverupper1354 : The majority of Arabs living in the Ottoman Empire sided with the Turks in WWI, or they stayed neutral. However, the Hejazi Arabs did align with the British and they were given certain promises of land. They got 99% of the land after it was ceded to the British and French in 1918. These countries are called Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Jordan today. Israel is less than 1%, and one-fifth of Israel's citizens are Arabs with equal rights.
Considering that the Arabs of the Hejaz got almost ALL of the land, and that land is rich in oil and resources, you'd think they would be happy, don't you? The problem for Muslims is that the Jews are back in control in the Holy Land, which was for hundreds of years under the Islamic Caliphate. And that is an affront to the Muslims. Read Qur'an 2:191 "Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them [the Jews] out from where they drove you out" and you'll see why Hamas has the goal to annihilate all of the Jews in Israel. This war is not about land. It is a religious war.
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@smostar569 : Both Israel and Egypt see the terrorist government of Hamas as a danger to their own citizens so they strictly control who goes in and out of the Gaza Strip through their border crossings. However, thousands of Palestinians used to pass from Gaza into Israel every day to work before the war and hundreds were taken into Israel for free medical treatment. And they do travel, as I've met Palestinians from Gaza in Egypt. They travel on a Palestinian Authority passport. They go on shopping trips to Cairo and Alexandria, and on holidays to many other countries. In Gaza there are luxury car dealerships and luxury apartments, eleven universities, beach resorts, gold markets, sports centres, and pretty much all the normal things you see in the Middle East, so don't believe the propaganda. There are very poor people in Gaza, as in all of the Middle East, but there are also rich people. Gaza had an obesity problem before the war as there was no shortage of food. The West Bank Palestinians have a similar situation but, because they are under different security controls and the Palestinian Authority is not considered a terrorist government, the people can come and go with a little more freedom, and they can travel outside via Jordan.
I've met many Palestinians who live in Jordan too. They are also not given full citizenship and are controlled by the Jordanian authorities, but life is pretty much equal to the Jordanians. I agree that they should have the full citizenship rights of a sovereign country and that's why I advocate for them all to be given the chance to be resettled in another country, like my country Australia. They are being held as 'weapons' to be used against the Jewish people of Israel. It's inhumane that they've been kept in limbo for 75 years. The Arab League forbade the Arab countries from giving the displaced Palestinians citizenship because they wanted to keep pressure on Israel, after they couldn't annihilate Israel with the multiple wars that they waged against the Jews. The Palestinians are the only group in the whole world who have their own UN organisation to keep them as perpetual refugees!!!
As for the war in Gaza, Israel does not target civilians so it is not a 'genocide' but it is a horrible tragedy. Hamas imbed themselves with the civilians and in schools, mosques, hospitals and other civil structures. However, the majority of Gaza people do support Hamas, the women and children spy for Hamas and deliver ammunition and logistical packages, so they are also involved. I do support the complete eradication of Hamas, just as ISIS was eradicated in Mosul where there was another horrible death toll on civilians. But in Mosul they were completely innocent civilians who never asked for ISIS to come and invade their cities in Iraq and Syria. Hamas were democratically elected, so the people of Gaza have to take some responsibility for what they've ended up with.
Thank you for reading, if you've got this far. We might not agree, but it's good to have an open discussion about this.
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@shhdurgevvs : The definition of #indigenous includes people who were 'displaced' from a land. The Romans took thousands of Jews as slaves to Rome, and now these 'European Jews' have returned to their ancestral homeland. Jews from Middle East and North African Arab countries, from Ethiopia, India and Europe, plus Arab Christians, Arab Muslims, Druze, Circassians and other minorities, all live together in Israel and they ALL have equal rights under the law and freedom of worship. Those Arabs who did not accept living in a Jewish country in 1948, and who are still hostile towards Jews, should by now have been resettled in another country.
Any country has the right to base its constitution on whatever values it chooses, just like the UK is founded on Christian values, and Japan has its own unique values. What is wrong with Israel being a Jewish country? And all countries have the right to control who becomes a citizen. The East Jerusalem Arabs do have a path to full citizenship, but I don't believe Israel can safely increase their Muslim population above 20% without endangering their other citizens. Look at the civil war that happened in Lebanon when the Christians let in thousands of Muslim refugees. Today Lebanon is a failed state.
As for Jews, Christians and Muslims living together before 1948, there were horrible massacres of Jews by Arabs, so let's not forget that. Bethlehem used to be more than 85% Christian before it was given to the Palestinian Authority and today it's only about 10% Christian. Wherever Jews and Christians live in a Muslim-majority place, they are given second-class status with restrictions on worship. They can never be sure of complete safety. That's why almost all of the Jews in Arab countries have left, and the Christian communities in the Middle East are getting smaller and smaller. Islam is NOT compatible with modern human rights.
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@blogintonblakley2708 : DNA is not taken into account as to whether a person is #indigenous or not. It is the "continuous connection" to the land that's important, and being a member of a unique cultural group, with one language, with ancestral burial sites, traditional places of gathering, artefacts, coins, kings, etc. People who have been 'displaced' from their homeland are still indigenous to it. The Romans took thousands of Jewish slaves to Europe, and now they've come home.
The Arabs of Palestine are mostly Muslim so their 'connection' is to Arabia and Mecca. Though Christians could claim to be indigenous because Jesus was a Jew, so the focus of Christians has always been on the land of Judea and Jerusalem. And it's great news because the Christian population of Israel is increasing today!
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@clarithromycine-oo9qp: I agree it does seem a bit weird but the whole point of being #indigenous is the "continuous connection" to a particular piece of land, and of belonging to a "unique cultural or social group". There is nothing unique about Arab cultures. Due to the Islamic invasions which began in the 7th century, the Arab culture, language, religion, etc. was forced on people right across North Africa, the Middle East, and up into Europe and down into Asia. It's great to see local groups such as the Berbers, Nubians, etc. also keeping up or returning to their own indigenous customs, using their own languages, dances and rituals, in parallel with the Arab customs, so long as they fit within the boundaries of Islam, where the Arabic language still dominates in many countries.
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@foreveravatar5874
Yes I do support human rights and I'm against the inhumane treatment by UNRWA which keeps the so-called 'Palestinians', with their special redefinition of refugee status, in perpetual limbo wherever they are living. The Arab countries do not generally give citizenship to the 'Palestinians' in order to keep them dissatisfied and resentful. This makes them #weapons against the Jewish state of Israel. But this is changing, so I am hopeful of a resolution to the problem in the coming decade.
Israel has full legitimacy for their nation state. They are obligated to protect ALL of their citizens, including the two million or so Arab citizens and other minority groups such as the Druze and Circassians, against the terror wave that we see coming out of Gaza and Judea and Samaria (West Bank) these days. They are also obligated to protect the 100,000 or so workers from Gaza or Judea and Samaria who spend their days earning a good living in Israel, or those 'Palestinians' who are being treated in Israeli hospitals.
I support all displaced 'Palestinians' being given support by the UNHCR and other organisations to apply for resettlement and citizenship in other countries, for example in my country Australia. I've seen reports that those living in refugee camps in Lebanon are not permitted to make applications for resettlement in Australia, probably because Hezbollah does not want the refugee numbers diminished. Remember that thousands and thousands of people make money from perpetuating this horrible refugee situation. It has become its own industry. And the leaders of the Arab organisations within the Palestinian Territories are now billionaires and millionaires. There is NO incentive to change anything. And there are the people who live safely outside the area who support it without offering any positive solutions.
I'm living in Sinai, Egypt. This country also 'blockades' Gaza. Egypt also puts Gaza under 'military occupation' if you prefer to call it that. Egypt doesn't want the terror regimes to spread here, any more than they've already done so. It's not 'apartheid' to defend your country against terror regimes, particularly when we know they are part of the larger threat of Iran's Islamic regime, or even part of the resurgence of the Islamic State in the region. I hope that clarifies my position on this subject for you.
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@thomasnoon9974 : Jews living in Britain were very well-represented in fighting in the Palestine Campaign. In return for the support of the global Jewry, including American Jews, both in terms of fighting and other resources, they were granted the right to reconstitute their ancestral homeland on the land west of the Jordan River to the sea, so long as this did not prejudice the civil or religious rights of the occupants. This land comprises less than 1% of the carved-up Ottoman Middle East land. And they share it with one-fifth Arab Israelis who have equal rights and freedom of worship. The Hejazi Arabs also fought with British Lawrence of Arabia. They were granted self-determination in 99% of the Ottoman land, much of it very rich in oil, today's Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. The Kurds and Assyrians also wanted control in their ancestral lands, but the imperialist Arabs retained dominance in the region, with the exception of losing the Holy Land to the #indigenous Jews.
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@ferhanakhan5706 : This is the World Bank definition: "Indigenous Peoples are distinct social and cultural groups that share collective ancestral ties to the lands and natural resources where they live, occupy or from which they have been displaced." You can believe whatever you want, but DNA is not a criteria for establishing who is indigenous to a specific land. The Jewish state of Israel is a legitimate sovereign state. The indigenous Jews were granted the right to reconstitute their ancestral homeland in return for their support in the war effort which was successful in DEFEATING the Ottoman Caliphate in 1918. Israel has the right to give citizenship to any person whom they believe is Jewish, based on that person's claim to be part of the unique cultural group which calls itself the Jewish people. One quarter of Israeli citizens are not Jews. They are Arabs, Druze, Circassians, Samaritans, Muslims, Christians, Baha'i, and all of them enjoy "equal rights" and "freedom of religion".
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@ferhanakhan5706 : You said quite a few things and I'm happy to respond as follows:
= Israel is the only country in the Middle East where Christians are safe and secure and their numbers are growing.
= Can you give me a couple of the 67 laws which you say apply to 'Palestinian' Israelis? I only know of one law that discriminates on the basis of race, which is that Israeli Arabs do not have to do the compulsory military service. But it's nice to see that the trend is for more and more of them to volunteer to do so.
= I am aware that there are housing estates which have committees that select who can join their estate by purchasing a home. This happens all around the world. It's not a civil government law but more of a community regulation so that residents can be sure that their neighbours have similar values. I don't like it, but you will see it all over the world. It is a form of discrimination "in practice" but not in law.
= I didn't know that there are roads that 'Palestinian' Israelis can't walk on, unless you are referring to Hebron which seems to have some serious security issues with Arabs from the PA and there are strict procedures in place. Nothing happens without a good reason. But I do know that Jews are forbidden to enter cities in the Palestinian Territories and Gaza, whereas Arabs from the PA and Gaza had permits to work in Israel before the massacre of October 7.
= Indigenous rights are recognised the world over these days. You have a name which suggests you might be a Muslim and I understand you would be against indigenous rights because it's not an Islamic value. Islamic armies invaded and conquered much of the known world and imposed Islamic values and Arabic culture upon the conquered people, and their indigenous rights were taken away. But this is slowly being overturned. I wouldn't be surprised to see more indigenous groups like the Kurds, Assyrians, Nubians, Copts, Siwans, Berbers, etc. demanding that their indigenous culture be more widely recognised in future.
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@litekuk5053 : Are the Romans the #indigenous people of Britain? Can they claim, like the Jewish people can, to have had a "continuous connection" to that land for over 3500 years? Do the Romans, like the Jewish people, also have a unique language, kings, coins, cultural practices, artefacts and ancestral burial places all relating to that particular land? Was there a World War that gave them an opportunity to be granted the right as the #indigenous people to return to that land? Many things had to line up before Israel was fortunate to be created. I'd also like to point out that after the DEFEAT of the Ottoman Empire, the Arabs were granted self-determination in 99% of the carved-up land (today's Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Jordan). The Jews want less than 1% and they share it with one-fifth Arabs who have equal rights under the law with Jews. That seems pretty fair to me, but I guess you might want no Jews at all in the Middle East?
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@rose-maries7131 : I'm not "avoiding the question". I don't care about it. I don't even know for sure that you can't get a genetic test done in Israel like anywhere else in the world, because in Tel Aviv there is a DNA Worldwide clinic and their website says you can get results within 3-5 days. I can't see any requirement to "go to court to get approval". Besides that, all governments have the right to make their own laws regarding citizenship, DNA testing, genetic screening, etc. and I'm not too bothered by anything in this respect.
As for Jews and Christians "living mainly in harmony" with Muslims under the 500 year Ottoman Empire, you must know that the Jews and Christians lived as "dhimmis". They had fewer rights under the law than Muslims. They were totally dependent on Muslims for their security, and they were always treated as second or third-class status. The Qur'an states that dhimmis are to be "humbled, brought low, subjugated". When the Islamic forces invaded and conquered the Middle East in the 7th century, they followed Sharia law and accorded Jews this subjugated status. So there was only 'harmony' if the Jews behaved, ie. they accepted their low status and didn't resist.
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@rose-maries7131 : I'm not "avoiding the question". I don't care about it, and I already made that clear. I don't even know for sure that you can't get a genetic test done in Israel like anywhere else in the world, because in Tel Aviv there is a DNA Worldwide clinic and their website says you can get results within 3-5 days. I can't see any requirement to "go to court to get approval"🙄. Besides that, all governments have the right to make their own laws regarding citizenship, DNA testing, genetic screening, etc. and I'm not bothered by anything in this respect.
As for Jews and Christians "living mainly in harmony" with Muslims, under the 500 year Ottoman Empire rule Jews and Christians lived as "dhimmis" and had fewer rights under the law than Muslims. They were totally dependent on Muslims for their security, and they were always accorded second or third-class status. As Qur'an 9:29 states, dhimmis are to be "humbled, brought low, subjugated". When the Islamic forces invaded and conquered the Middle East in the 7th century, they followed Sharia and accorded Jews and Christians this subjugated status. So there was only 'harmony' if the Jews behaved, ie. if they accepted their lower status and didn't resist. Now the Jews are back in control in their ancestral homeland and they don't have to abide by any of that nonsense. It's great.
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@heatherlinnette189 : I believe this so-called 'Palestinian' group of Arabs have #forfeited any right to a state. I don't even think they ever had grounds for a state of their own! In 1924 the British Mandate for Palestine, which was to be the reconstituted home of the Jewish people, was divided and 75% given to the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (an Arab tribe from the Hijaz, today's Saudi Arabia). Jordan was for the Arabs. Jews were not given equal rights in Jordan, and most had to leave.
That left the land "from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea" for the Jewish people. Then the British and the UN reneged on their promise to the Jewish people and once again carved up the land for Jews (who accepted) and the belligerent Arabs (who refused to accept the land they were offered). This group of Arabs has since been made many offers and they have refused all of them. They've also refused to accept Israel as a state, and they won't negotiate peace. The Arabs who were #displaced by the 1948 war, which began when the seven neighbouring Arab states attacked the new state of Israel and lost, should by now have been absorbed into those Arab countries. But the Arab League forbade giving them citizenship and they are being USED as pawns or weapons against the Jews.
The HUMANE thing to do would be to give them a #choice to be resettled somewhere else in the world, preferably with their own people, ie. in Egypt, Jordan or Saudi Arabia because most of them have families there as they only migrated to Palestine after 1920, when the British and Jews created economic opportunities for these Arabs. Look at their last names and you can see where their families are from.
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@wordgun1903 : Wherever there is "Muslim rule", Jews and Christians are second/third-class citizens, ie. 'dhimmis'. They are not equal to Muslims under the law, and they are humbled, humiliated, brought low. That's not "coexisting peacefully"!!! That's oppression. Today the #indigenous Jewish people are back in control in their own homeland. Land that was ruled for centuries by an Islamic Caliphate. You have to deal with that. The Jewish people are back to stay. Christians are leaving all Muslim-majority lands. In 1950, Bethlehem was 86% Christian. After the Palestinian Authority took over, the Christian population dropped to around 12%. But the Christian communities are growing in Israel where they have equal rights under the law and freedom of worship. The Ottoman Caliphate was DEFEATED by the British and French in 1918. Wars have consequences, and the Jewish people supported the British in the war so they were rewarded with the right to reconstitute their ancestral homeland. One-fifth of Israeli citizens are *Arabs who are mostly Muslim*. They have equality under the law with Jews and other minorities. Arab Muslims sit in the Knesset, on the Supreme Court, and even serve in the IDF and security services. They are thriving in the Jewish state of Israel. I recommend that you watch the 5min video called "Does Israel Occupy the West Bank?" by PragerU. You might learn something.
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@Whosthat_
Thousands of Jews were taken as slaves by the Romans to Europe. Jews were also persecuted and displaced, or threatened with death by Muslim invaders when they refused to convert to Islam. They went to Europe, North Africa, other countries in the Middle East, and to Ethiopia and India for economic survival. No matter where they are living in the world they are still #indigenous to Israel. It's the "continuous connection" to their ancestral homeland and their "unique culture" that counts. The Jewish people have a unique Hebrew language, ancient kings, coins, traditions centred on Jerusalem, and ancestral burial places in Hebron. The archaeological sites of the early Jewish people are very well-documented. That's the reality.
Arabs are indigenous to Arabia, Kurds to Kurdistan, Maoris to New Zealand, etc. No matter where in the world they find themselves displaced today. The fact that "Arab lands" are so vast is because the Arabs were at one time the biggest imperialist forces of invasion and conquest the world has ever seen. Thankfully today we see Islam losing power everywhere, and the Jews are back in control in their ancestral land.
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@hornerfarah2282 : Yes I do know about the report. However Palestinians are not Israeli citizens, who have *equal rights under the law*, Jews and non-Jews alike. I believe that the Palestinians who live in East Jerusalem also have a path to full Israeli citizenship which they have chosen to decline. Amnesty has created a new definition of 'apartheid' to justify their use of the term, but in reality the treatment of Palestinians by the IDF has come about due to the severe wave of jihad terror and the necessity for self-defence of all Israeli citizens, ie. the Arabs, Druze, Christians, Atheists, Jews, etc. If the Palestinian jihad groups, who are funded by Iran, chose to stop the violence, there would be little interference in the Palestinian Territories by the IDF. Then the Palestinian people could begin to make their own corrupt leaders accountable for their lower status of living compared with the Arabs who have full Israeli citizenship.
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@s.k.9110 : So you are a direct descendant of the *Arab invaders*? Then your perspective makes sense, and it would be pretty normal that there was some inter-breeding with Amazigh people along the way because of sex slavery and other forms of coercion and subjugation. As for apostates, what's the problem in speaking critically about the ideology that you don't like? That's how human civilisations advance. I've never heard of an apostate from Islam being violent other than in self-defence, but no doubt you have more experience with this than me.
Insulting something is subjective. What an apostate feels is a legitimate criticism, for example the horrible rights for women and girls in Islam (polygamy, child marriage, guardianship, a husband permitted to beat his wife, no 'consent' for sex in marriage, no equality in divorce), might hurt the feelings of a Muslim man but that doesn't mean an apostate should keep quiet about it. But we all know that Muslim cultures don't permit freedom of speech or freedom of conscience.
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@AzaadAlly : Mary the mother of Jesus lived 2000 years ago when most Jewish people, men and women, dressed conservatively. It's very different today now that humanity has evolved in consciousness. Christian females are not taught to cover their hair, unless they take up religious vows and become nuns, or when they are attending worship services in an Orthodox or Catholic Church. For the vast majority of Christian females it's a choice to cover the hair or not. Whereas in Islam there are strict sharia laws for how a female behaves and how she is permitted to dress.
Christians are encouraged to critically examine everything, including religions and so-called sacred beliefs. There's also no racism in the teachings of Jesus so what on earth are you talking about here? Jesus didn't own slaves like Muhammed did. He was compassionate to all people and he was sacrificed for the sins of humanity. Muhammed is said to have traded multiple black-skinned slaves to get a white slave. He also had slaves that he had sex with, as well as having multiple wives who were not permitted to remarry after he died. This is all well-documented in the Islamic texts of the Qur'an, the Tafsirs, Hadiths, and the Sira of Muhammed. It seems rather odd to me that Muslims still accept this barbaric behaviour in the 21st century.
Finally, where is democracy in Islam? Democracy is a Christian principle of government that doesn't exist in Islam. Islam is authoritarian, with top-down rule, and it has laws for all aspects of life. And there's no freedom of speech, or freedom of conscience or religion in Islam due to the enforcement of blasphemy and apostasy laws. Islam is about submission to the will of the 'god' of Islam. There will be no peace for Muslims until ALL humanity has either submitted to Allah or have been subjugated (brought low, humiliated, made to live as lower-class dhimmis) to the rule of the Muslims.
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@s.k.9110 : I know plenty of polygamous marriages in Egypt, to name just one Islamic country. Many Muslim men also marry foreign wives and keep their Egyptian wife as the second class one, especially if she's undergone genital mutilation. It's a horrible situation for both women. A lot of Muslim men who travel to Western countries, take a second or third wife there too. I met a few in London.
Once you are converted to Islam you can't get out. However you can convert to Christianity after receiving incentives, and then you can easily get out of Christianity. Christianity separates politics from religion.
Don't believe official statistics on religion. People are not allowed to leave Islam so of course they'll say they are still Muslim!!! Tunisia is not very strict (though now they have a new dictator after the 'palace coup' things may have changed) and people can convert to Christianity or become Atheist, etc. Iran is no longer close to 50% Muslim population, and I see that as a very good thing, though they have to be very secretive about their non-belief.
Tension between religions or within religions is fine, but why do we only see Muslims "forbidding wrong and commanding right" and even cutting off the heads of people who are not doing the right thing by Islam? This internal enforcement of Islamic religious practice by other practitioners is not a requirement in any other religion that I know of, so where did you get that idea from? Christians who don't abide by their church may be ex-communicated but that's nothing like the punishment that is encouraged and permitted in Islam.
Islamic Sharia is NOTHING like Christianity which is a personal religion only. You only need to accept Jesus as your saviour and that's pretty much it. Islam is a 'complete way of life' including politics and law. Islam IS primarily an ideology of politics-law, with a religious dimension which serves as a 'cover'.
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@s.k.9110 : "The fact that nothing is written in the Qur’an about the age of consent does not mean that Pre pubescent marriage is mandatory": Where did I say anything about #prepubescent marriage being MANDATORY? Marrying and having sex with a small girl is halal, and considered honourable because the 'prophet' of Islam did it, that's all.
"You seem to confuse Muslims and Islamists": What is the difference between a Muslim and an Islamist? All Muslims are equally obligated to struggle to live under Sharia. Islamist is just another made-up word, like Islamophobe, to try and shut down the real conversation. There is ONE Islamic doctrine, and ONE Islam, which Muslims are obligated to try and follow.
"Why did the Aboriginal population decrease by more than 80% last decades?": Mostly through disease which came with the new arrivals. The same thing happened in North America and pretty much everywhere else in the world. The explorers and settlers brought viruses and bacteria, such as smallpox, influenza, measles, typhus, and cholera, for which the indigenous peoples had no immunity.
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What nonsense. The Jewish people are #indigenous to the land of Israel. In return for their support to the British in WWI they were promised the chance to reconstitute their ancestral home, providing that all current occupants were given equal rights and freedom of religion. TODAY over two million Arab Muslims and other minorities such as Druze, Bedouin, Circassians, Arab Christians, etc. have equal rights with Jews in Israel. All Arab living in the area who are hostile to Israel should be resettled in an Arab country. The Ottoman Caliphate was DEFEATED in 1918 and the Hejazi Arabs, who also supported the British in the war effort ended up being granted self-rule in 99% of the carved-up Ottoman land, today called Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. Losers of wars don't get to choose who ends up with the booty.
Israel is here to stay and it will only grow stronger...🙏💙
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@AfroRU6246
It is possible that two separate indigenous peoples can be from the same place. Can you provide evidence of a continuous connection to the land of Israel? Do you have a special language, coins, historic documents listing your kings, judges, or other rulers? Can you describe your unique traditions, religious traditions, and burial sites of leaders and forefathers directly linked to the Holy Land? Have you retained social, cultural, economic and political characteristics that are distinct from those of the dominant societies in which you and other 'Canaanites' currently live, in the same way that the Jewish peoples have done so?
I would love to see the Tibetans, Kurds, Kashmiris, Uyghurs, Berbers, and other indigenous peoples achieve self-determination, or at least a measure of autonomy, in their own distinct land. I wish you the best of luck in reviving your personal claim on behalf of any currently living Canaanite people.
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@heshamhero6149 : "Islamic GOLDEN age literature"? Sadly, a lot of this literature is just not credible because it's written to justify a certain narrative. Just like the standard Islamic sources. They only came about DECADES after the death of the 'prophet' and are not evidence-based. Nor do they have any corroborating evidence from other civilisations in that area during the 7th century.
The Jewish people were acknowledged by a unanimous vote in the League of Nations in 1920 as #indigenous to the Holy Land. They have religious practices, artefacts, burial grounds of ancestors, a well-established written history, a continuous presence, etc. all tied to that particular region, centred on Jerusalem. They were granted the legal right to reconstitute their ancestral home in Israel. All other OCCUPANTS at the time were to be given #equal rights under the law (which they have today, where Arab Muslims sit in the Knesset and on the Supreme Court), plus freedom of religion (there are hundreds of mosques in Israel today). One fifth of Israeli citizens TODAY are from those Arab, Druze, Circassian, Kurdish, Turkish, etc. families who chose to accept life under Jewish rule in 1948. Israel is probably the most multicultural nation in the world today with more than 50% of Jews arriving from across North Africa, Arabia, Ethiopia, and India, so please stop with the nonsense about skin colour.
From the same League of Nations vote, the Arab occupants of the dismembered Ottoman Empire were granted self-rule over 99% of the Middle East!!! If you consider the countries of Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Jordan to be legitimate, why are you still complaining only about a tiny less-than-1% piece of land which the #indigenous Jews now have back in their control? There are real refugees in the world today to be more concerned about. The so-called Palestinians are being used as geopolitical weapons against the Jews but it's not going to achieve anything. Israel is an "innovation powerhouse" and it will only grow stronger, especially with the normalising of ties between Israel and surrounding Arab nations.
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@Dimedivathekeeper1 : Israeli Arabs sit in the Knesset, on the Supreme Court, and they work in the highest levels of business, education, health, government and technology industry, plus some serve in the IDF. They have national and civil voting rights, and freedom of religion. Maybe you are talking about the Palestinians? Israel has little to do with the rights that the corrupt Palestinian Authority and terrorist Hamas give their own people. Or maybe you are talking about the East Jerusalem Arabs who have residence visas? They don't have national voting rights but they do have all the normal civil rights that people on long-term residence visas have in other countries, which includes equal access to education, health and employment, and full civil voting rights with a path to Israeli citizenship. They often don't take advantage of civil voting rights, however, because they believe it goes against Islam.
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@abokareem7586 : Do you know what the definition of indigenous is? It doesn't matter where in the world you live, if you have had a continuous connection with the land of your ancestors, through language, traditions, and religious rituals, etc. then you are indigenous to that ancestral land.
Please give up on the dream to 'go back home'. If you are hostile to Israel, you are not welcome. You should apply to be resettled in another country, just like all of the other 'displaced' people in the last 100 years. You can't have 'exchange between two neighbour countries' when the people on one side want to annihilate you.
The Arabs were granted 99% of the collapsed Ottoman Caliphate land. The Jews were given legal right to their ancestral homeland which comprises less than 1% of the Ottoman Empire land. From this perspective, I support both Arabs and Jews to have self-determination over their own lands, particularly as 20% of Israeli citizens are Arabs who have equal rights with Jews.
As for 'ethnic cleansing', how do you feel about the 850,000 Jews who were ethnically cleansed, or exiled, from the Arab countries after the Arabs lost the 1948 war?
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@itsmoshalawi : I guess it depends on how you define 'thrived'? As for living in 'peace and harmony' please do check out the story of the 1066 Granada massacre of Jews where it is estimated that Muslim mobs killed more than 1400 Jewish families. As a minority in an Islamic rule, Jews always lived under the threat of persecution, though they were at times quite valuable to the Muslim rulers because of their skills. Jews are never guaranteed total protection no matter how much jizya they paid, or how humbled or subordinate they behaved, as required by their dhimmi status. If one Jew says the wrong thing, or does something a Muslim doesn't like, or appears to take a superior position to the Muslims, then the whole community could be in danger. Many Jewish families would pretend to convert to Islam and carry on their religious practices and traditions in secret in order to escape persecution.
You can read more in this excellent book "The Myth of the Andalusian Paradise: Muslims, Christians, and Jews under Islamic Rule in Medieval Spain" by Dario Fernandez-Morera. If someone has told you that the Jews and Christians have usually lived in peace and harmony with Muslims then they've told you a blatant lie. I would also look into what you've been told about the early years of Islam, because much of this also appears to have been written by Arab rulers to suit their political narrative at the time.
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@Landofisraelforever : The Arabs in Palestine fought on the side of the Ottoman Turks in WWI. Losers of a war that they started do not get to decide who ends up with what land🙄. The Hejazi Arabs fought with the British and got 99% of the carved-up Ottoman Middle East land, today's Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. The indigenous Jews also fought with the British and were given the legal right to reconstitute THEIR ancestral homeland 'from the river to the sea'. Since the 1917 signing of the Balfour Declaration the Arabs of Palestine have violently resisted the Jews returning to control in their land. It's time they accepted reality or moved on. Israel should extend sovereignty over the disputed areas of Judea and Samaria, and Gaza, and offer the Arab occupants "residence status". That would give them equal CIVIL rights, relative autonomy, security, a travel document, etc. but not NATIONAL voting rights. #OneJewishState
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@funTimesInTheSun : Seeing as it was the Arab Islamic forces which colonised the Middle East, how are the colonisers the #indigenous peoples? Arabs are indigenous to Saudi Arabia. Those Arab Muslims who live in the Holy Land have 'historic links' but they are no longer considered the 'indigenous peoples' of that land. Their focus is on Mecca and Medina, whereas the Jewish people have always been focused on Zion, or Jerusalem, regardless of where in the world they've been living after persecution.
And a large number of the Arabs arrived in Palestine only AFTER the British and Jews had created economic opportunities when they took over after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. They have names that reflect their region of origin, ie. Kurdish, Egyptian, Iraq, Syrian, Moroccan, Algerian, etc.
In 1922 the League of Nations unanimously acknowledged the connection of the Jewish people with that land and gave them the legal grant to reconstitute their ancestral home, so long as the current occupants were given equal civil rights and freedom of worship. Today over two million Arab Israeli citizens have equal rights and freedom of worship in Israel.
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There is NO call for "forced displacement"🙄. Please let the so-called 'Palestinians' make their OWN choice to leave without paying huge bribes to get out of Gaza and Judea and Samaria. Stop keeping them TRAPPED in perpetual victimhood status in your "Arab existential cause" to destroy Israel. The Jewish state of Israel is not going anywhere. Israel is the beginning of the #rollback of Arab Islamic imperialism. One day the indigenous Kurds, Druze, Berbers, Amazigh, Copts, Assyrians, Balochis, Maronites, Yazidis, Alawites, etc. will all be free like the Jewish people... 🙏🇮🇱💙
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@auntiesemite9295 : Where is the evidence of 'apartheid' in Israel? Feel free to provide examples. Arabs and other minorities have equal rights under the law, and many Arab Muslims sit in the highest positions in government, the judiciary, banking, education, health, technology, etc. Arabs also participate in military and police forces. The apartheid that I do know about is on the Temple Mount where Jews are restricted to certain hours and prevented from praying in their most holiest place, where Jewish civilians are excluded from entering Gaza and the Palestinian Territories, and where Arabs are not permitted to sell properties to Jews.
Thankfully, I'm not religious and I would never pick Islam. It has horrible rights for women and girls, and the standard Islamic narrative of the first 150 is all made up to suit a political agenda. It seems to be an #imposter ideology...🙄
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@febinyasin8955 : Christianity separates religion and state. In countries founded on Judeo-Christian values, the laws that arise out of those values can be continually amended and updated to reflect new knowledge, scientific evidence, and evolution in the collective consciousness of societies. Christian values include everyone being treated equally under the law, no child marriage, no polygamy, no wife-beating, no rape in marriage, no slavery, freedom of religion, freedom of expression, etc.
On the other hand, Islamic countries are stuck with 7th century Arab Bedouin culture which Sharia is based upon. The only reason Islamic countries don't implement "strict Sharia" today is because it's ludicrous to follow Sharia in the 21st century. Now that the world is very connected, Islamic countries are under some pressure from the modern world to conform to better human rights.
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@solemnstar4424 : I'm glad you said 'story' because I think that's all the Mi'raj is. It is a 'story' that was written and/or modified later, in order to suit a specific political agenda. Can you provide a link to the 'research' which you say has evidence of a mosque on Temple Mount in 621? Saying that something is in the Qur'an so it must be real, is just silly. No-one knows where the Qur'an actually came from. No-one knows how much of the early Islamic traditions can even be believed.
I'm glad you said that the Palestinians were 'displaced'. So why haven't they been resettled (or 'reallocated') in another suitable country by now? Millions of other displaced peoples in the last 100 years now live as secure citizens in their new countries. The biggest example of 'displaced' peoples are the 13 million South Asians who had to flee their homes in the Partition of India in 1947 when the Islamic country of Pakistan was created. Another example is the 850 thousand Jews who were displaced (or 'exiled') from their ancestral homes in Arab Muslim countries. And thousands of Greeks were kicked out of Turkey when it became a sovereign nation after the collapse of the Ottoman Caliphate. Do we hear about their problems today, or are they just getting on with life like everyone else? Why are the so-called Palestinians STILL being held as pawns in the game of Arab vs Jew more than 70 years later? Why do they STILL get so much publicity and funding from UNRWA and others?
Israel is not 'stolen'. It is a legitimate state born out of the collapse of the Ottoman Caliphate, which LOST its offensive war against the Allies in 1918. Going to war against others has consequences. Those on the losing side don't get to call the shots. The ancient land of Israel was confirmed to be the ancestral home of the indigenous Jewish people, and allocated to them by the League of Nations, the world body at the time which had the job of administering transfer of power after the major conflict of WWI. The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan was given 77% of the Ottoman region of Palestine, and the Jews should by now have complete sovereignty over the remaining 23%. Arabs today rule over 99% of that surrendered Middle East land of the defeated Ottoman Empire, ie. in Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon and Saudi Arabia. Israel comprises less than 1% of that surrendered land, and yet we see that some Arab Muslims are still today trying to obliterate the Jews from their homeland.
I agree with Ben Gurion that many Palestinian Muslims would previously have been ethnic Jews who had to convert to Islam when the Islamic Caliphates began their invading and conquering after the rise of Islam. To survive as a 'dhimmi' in an Islamic Caliphate was very difficult. Accepting Islam was often necessary in order to survive. I heard recently of a Kuwait Muslim man finding out that his grandmother had to flee Palestine as a refugee. She had kept her Jewish ethnicity hidden as she had married a Muslim and had to convert. He now lives as a Jew in Jerusalem.
Israel needs to have superior military power to Syria, Jordan and Lebanon in order to provide security for its own citizens. Some Muslims have even told me that Israel wants to expand beyond its ancestral homeland but, if there's any truth in that, why did the Israeli leaders give back the Sinai Peninsula (where I am living) to Egypt in order to make a peace deal? Why did they give the Gaza Strip to the Arabs to make a peace deal? I know people in Gaza today who would far prefer to be citizens of Israel than live under Hamas and the Islamic Jihad Movement, where they are hardly surviving.
As for the Ukraine-Russian conflict, Israel is the counterpart of Ukraine. It is a sovereign democratic country which lives under the constant threat of invasion by surrounding hostile nations. Israel also faces threats from within by hostile Arabs. The majority of the western nations stand with Israel, just as they do with Ukraine.
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@lightfulcore : Thanks for the explanation about hiding your identity. I don't believe anyone should hide, unless they are in physical danger, eg. an ex-Muslim who is not safe to come out to their family or community. We are all learning, and I would always forgive someone for being less wise or less knowledgeable at times.
I agree that in a perfect world no-one would have to leave their home to make way for others to come in. But the reality is that borders shift, and wars, separatist movements, and revolutions happen. People also suffer genocide or they are exiled, as happened to the 850K Jews who used to live in Arab countries. Millions of people have been displaced for the creation of new nation states in the last 100 years, the largest group being the 13 million who fled when the Muslim state of Pakistan was created, but most accept citizenship in their new country and get on with their lives. It's only the so-called Palestinians who are still 'refugees' 70 years after the creation of Israel and when there was an invasion by the Arab nations. It's important to remember that around 21% of Israeli citizens are Arabs. All governments have the right to enact citizenship laws which protect their stated values and which ensure the safety of their citizens.
I am well aware that 'sharia' is not a book, and it is implemented according to the wisdom of the ruler. There are few Islamic governments which implement sharia fully today, probably due to external pressures. There is nothing in the Qur'an or in the Islamic traditions that ensures equality of Jews and Christians with Muslims. Muslim women are not even equal to Muslim men. So I don't know what you are trying to say here.
The security situation in Israel is grim. I've been there a few times, and I live close by in Sinai at the moment. If one group is given more protection than another, there would be a good reason. Discrimination due to a perceived security risk is a normal consequence of a highly volatile situation. It's not 'racism' or 'apartheid'. And if you want to talk about indoctrination of children, please remember that Muslim children are also indoctrinated against Jews and that money is paid to families of those who kill Jews.
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@solemnstar4424 : Firstly, why do you hide behind an anonymous name?
My definition of ‘story’ is that it is something that cannot be proved by any hard evidence, and some details could easily have been embellished to suit an agenda. There is no hard evidence of a Qur’an existing around the time of M_hmd. The Qur’an also evolved over 23 or more years, so it seems that it was never an eternal message from a 'god'. My understanding from the trusted Islamic sources is that M_hmd only gained a large following after he received ‘revelations’ which promised war booty and sex slaves. Before that, he was preaching a peaceful message like Jesus but he only had less than 175 followers in 13 years. And those peaceful messages were then abrogated by the later ones. So it’s quite clear that Islam grew into an ideology of invasion and conquering and intolerance towards unbelievers.
According to the traditional Islamic sources, there were many people who were instrumental in putting the so-called ‘revelations’ into a book form (or book forms, due to the 30+ number of Qur’ans in existence today). Today they would probably be called sub-editors or collaborators. I don’t see where I actually said “authors”.
As for Palestine, it’s not about your idea of “ownership of the land”. As I said quite clearly before, it’s about international law prevailing after the collapse and dismemberment of the Ottoman Caliphate in 1918. The Ottoman Empire joined Germany in an OFFENSIVE war against the Allies and they lost. Going to war against a country has consequences. Through various agreements and international laws, the Jews were acknowledged as the ancestral people of Palestine and they were granted a return to their historic homeland. The small portion of land west of the Jordan river is less than 1% of that collapsed Ottoman Middle East empire. Arabs of Jordan, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Lebanon today have self-determination over 99% of that land, yet you still complain?
It’s only where the Jews are involved that people still support the ‘displaced’ Palestinians as pawns in their game of anti-Semitism. And 20% of Israeli citizens ARE Arab Muslims, whose families chose to accept the legitimacy of Israel in 1948. Today the vast majority of Palestinians living in East Jerusalem say they prefer living under Israeli rule to that of the Palestinian Authority. The Abraham Accords is also increasing the normalisation of the #legitimacy of the Jewish State of Israel.
By far the better solution for all displaced peoples is to give them refuge and/or citizenship within a culture which most closely resembles their own. So please stop all the nonsense about equating Ukrainian women and children refugees with Arab Muslim refugees, who today are mostly healthy young male economic migrants who prefer to leave their own failed countries to live in successful Judeo-Christian ones.
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@solemnstar4424 : The Messenger didn’t need to know how to read or write because he lived in an oral society. He was listening to the voices in his head for the revelations and it was easy to repeat those phrases to a scribe to note down, or for people to remember and recite. Nothing special about this. But I hope you realise that Islamic scholars do not agree on the actual word meanings of around 20% of the texts? And that some ayats were lost? So far, the earliest written sources are from decades after the death of the Messenger.
“The revelations never… promoted violence”. So what do you think the words about killing in Surah 9:111 mean? “Allah has indeed purchased from the believers their lives and wealth in exchange for Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah and kill or are killed.” This is a commonly quoted verse by Islamic terrorists who believe that to in order to achieve certain martyrdom they must kill kaffirs. There are plenty of other violent verses in the Quran too.
“You can find that Muslims, Christians, and Jews lived peacefully in Palestine”. Jews and Christians have NEVER lived peacefully in an Islamic state, or even in a Muslim-majority country. They are always persecuted and the Quran ensures that they are categorised as lower-class citizens who must pay the “head tax” and be subjugated or humiliated [Quran 9:29].
“When Israel was formed, discriminates against Muslims and Christians”. Around two million of Israel’s citizens are Arab Muslims, Druze, Christian, and a few other sects. They have equal rights to the Israeli Jews, they sit in parliament, work in security, education, medical, tech industries, etc. so I don’t know what you are talking about here.
“Why does Islam, Christianity, and Judaism share same the beliefs?” Historians are now finding that Islam seems to have emerged gradually from a non-trinitarian Christian sect, and it includes a lot of pre-Islamic Pagan practices. The word Muslim or Islam is not anywhere in the early historic documents. It’s also quite likely that the word Mohammed, which means ‘praised one’ referred to Jesus. And everyone now knows that Mecca was not even on a map of the Hijaz at the time of the Messenger’s life, so that is a fiction too.
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@solemnstar4424 : “The majority of Jews lived in Palestine and wanted to "establish" a home in Palestine. International treatment was passed and was rejected”.
What rejection? Israel is a legitimate nation-state, just like Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. They were all new nation-states which were founded after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918. The Jews were acknowledged under International Law in 1920 San Remo Agreement as the indigenous people of the Holy Land from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. Here's a great 5 min video explaining the legal situation: PragerU "Does Israel Occupy the West Bank?".
Those Arabs who ‘accepted’ to live under the rule of Jews in 1948 make up 20% of Israeli citizens today and the vast majority are very happy with this decision according to recent surveys. Those Arabs who fled when the hostile Arab countries attacked Israel are ‘displaced peoples’ and should by now have been resettled in those Arab countries, but you know that the Arab League passed laws to keep them in limbo. 850,000 Jews were ‘displaced’ (ethnically cleansed) from all of the Arab countries. Do you care about them, or the fact that they had to leave their ancestral property and wealth behind? If you don’t care, then I would have to wonder if you are #Anti-Semitic. A special refugee organisation was set up for the so-called Palestinian refugees yet 74 years later they still haven’t resettled these refugees anywhere. What’s going on? What happens to all the millions of dollars paid to UNWRA for this task? I recommend anyone to watch another PragerU 5 min video called "Why Are There Still Palestinian Refugees?" which explains the complex refugee situation that occurred after the founding of Israel in 1948.
Al-Aqsa Mosque is being used as a terror headquarters. Israeli security has as enormous job to contain the Islamic terrorism inside Israel these days, especially during Ramadan and Jewish national days. It’s horrible for ALL people, including Israeli Arab Muslims, simply because a small number of Muslims persist with terror attacks, mostly sponsored by Hamas and Iran.
There is no comparison between a war in Europe, which hasn’t seen war for over 70 years, to an Islamic country where we’ve seen constant civil wars and terror attacks. They are held to different standards for a clear reason.
Back to criticising ideas, especially ideas about religion, fascism, socialism and communism. It’s extremely important for cultures to be free to criticise ALL such ideas. That’s how we have evolved, and we've seen religions grow and then collapse over time. In those countries that prevent freedom of expression, for example the Islamic states, we can see how terrible the rights are for citizens compared with those who live in the free world countries.
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@solemnstar4424 : You say "The Quran has ONE book, nothing has been changed". This idea of the Qur'an being unchanged is now being challenged. And you can't understand the Qur'an without context. You have to refer to The Sira, Hadiths, and Tafsirs, so it's much more nuanced than just following ONE 'eternal' book.
Yes I am aware of the idea that Islam came to 'correct' both Christianity and Judaism, but the concept of God in Islam is very different to that of the Jews and Christians so are Muslims even following the same god? I believe that Jesus came to fulfil the covenants of the Old Testament, not because anything had been 'altered'. It was due to the evolution in human consciousness that Jesus came to Earth at that time.
Islam has taken this 'evolution' backwards in the way it treats women and girls. It concerns me how Muslim men can use the Qur'an to treat women as second-class citizens who have few rights. I also don't like that Islam is not just a personal religion but contains a political and legal system. I can't accept that people can even be killed for leaving Islam, or speaking critically about it, or that people are not treated equally under the law in Islam.
If it can be shown that the Qur'an did not arrive in its complete form in the way that the Islamic narrative says it has, then its foundation is shaky. And as Islam interacts more and more with the modern world, there is a dilemma. Should Muslims hold onto the unchanged 7th century traditions of Muhammed? Or, as we are seeing in many parts of the Arab world today, should they move into modernity and ignore some of those 7th century traditions and laws?
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@Who.is.kidding.who. : I have always supported Israel's right to exist, just as I have always supported the right of Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria and Saudi Arabia to exist. I only found out about my grandfather last May during the Gaza war as I was just over the border in Sinai, where I am again today, and I decided to do some research. It has only made this topic more meaningful for me.
War is very unpleasant and even more unpleasant when you were on the aggressing side and then lost the battle. Israel is surrounded by hostile Muslim nations so they have to be strong. When 99% of the old Ottoman Empire (excluding Turkey) was given to Arab Muslims, and 20% of Israel is today made up of Arab Muslims, how you can say that the Palestinians of 1948, which included Jews, Muslims, Druze, Christians, etc. were not treated fairly? There are always losers in war but this outcome seems totally reasonable to me, especially as the Jews are the indigenous people of the Holy Land.
Let's use some of your reasoning. How many Jewish grandfathers have died at the hands of their neighbours in Arab countries? As for Britain being 'colonialists', the Islamic forces were at one time the biggest invading and occupying power in the known world!!! And who has kept the Palestinians in refugee camps? Why did the Arab League vote to NOT give them citizenship after they fled Israel in 1948 when the Arab nations went to war against Israel? Why does the UN not resettle them somewhere else as they do with all other refugee groups? What is so special about the Palestinians when we know that more than 13 million South Asians also had to relocate when India was partitioned in 1947 to accommodate an Islamic Pakistan? What happened to all of those South Asian 'refugees' and do we still hear them crying 'victim' today?
Yes I believe it is primarily about Islam vs Judaism and the Holy Land. Thankfully the Islamic world is losing power today and more nations will probably normalise ties with Israel in the coming months and years.
#EndTimes
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@coffeelover5134
Assimilation is a one-way process, where the minority culture adopts the practices, beliefs, and values of the dominant culture. It's a process of the refugees becoming 'similar' to the new culture. Is it possible for Muslims to assimilate when their own religious ideology is a total way of life, including a legal system? Islam doesn't encourage Muslims to become part of a non-Muslim culture, nor to befriend non-Muslims, so do you think that assimilation could be a problem for Muslims? It's fine to keep your own food, or language, so long as you also adopt the language of your new country, as well as its values and culture. Finally, if you are going to successfully assimilate, you don't keep agitating for your own culture to be accommodated in place of the one you've joined.
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@coffeelover5134
You sound like a very #modern Muslim. That's great! And there's research to show that around one-quarter of Muslims born in the west eventually leave their religion or become 'cultural' Muslims only. But there is only one set of Islamic scriptures and a fairly literal interpretation of these scriptures is also valid. That's the problem. You are free to pick and choose what parts of Islam to uphold, but many Muslims stay strictly with the Islamic doctrine, and that leads to an inability to assimilate. These Muslims will continue to agitate for their right to have prayer places, halal food, the broadcasting of azhan, education along Islamic lines, gender segregation at times, dress with very visible religious symbols, etc. They are against freedom of speech when it comes to criticism of Islam. They want the right to have multiple wives, to divorce according to Sharia law, and to discipline their females as set out in the Qur'an. I see this as asking for "special treatment or privileges".
I agree that cultures are always changing and that's fine if it's considered a positive social #evolution by the majority of people of that culture. This isn't the case with a religious ideology that states it is 'the best, the final one' and which refuses to integrate and/or assimilate, but wants to dominate once it has gained a level of power. In the past, the invasion and occupation by Islam was by military power. Today it's by migration. If a Muslim wants to retain their own religious and legal practices, they should move to a country which already accommodates Islam.
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@alqudzz-9864 : In reply to your other comment: "ur forgetting who gave independence to who. Palestinians let u in. The zionists stabbed them in the back"...
The Zionists were granted the right to reconstitute their ancestral homeland in historic Palestine by the San Remo Conference of 1920. Remember that it was the Ottoman Caliphate which LOST the war? So it was the winners, the British, French, and Allies who controlled the decision-making process. The only condition for the Zionists to reclaim their ancestral land was that the current occupants of Palestine were to be given equality under the law and the freedom to practice their religion. You can see that the Zionists kept their part of the deal by seeing the hundreds of mosques and churches that exist in Israel today, and the fact that Arab Israelis sit in the Knesset, on the Supreme Court, in leadership positions in industry, education, health and banking, and they serve in security organisations. The Arab Israeli population has increased to over two million today, and forms one-fifth of Israel's total population.
It was the British who "stabbed the Zionists in the back" by giving away 74% of the British Mandate of Palestine to the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. And it was the United Nations in 1947 who divided the land once again between Jews and Arabs. A resolution that the Arabs flatly refused, but Israel gladly accepted. Thankfully ALL of the land from the river to the sea, plus some of the Golan Heights, and minus the Gaza Strip, is back under the control of the #indigenous Jewish people.
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@NikoBellaKhouf2 : In 1920 the League of Nations unanimously acknowledged that the Jews are #indigenous to the Holy Land and thus they were granted the right to reconstitute their ancestral home, with the proviso that other occupants of the land be given equal rights and freedom of religion, which all Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Circassians, Druze, and other minorities have today in Israel. The British Mandate of Palestine was set up in order to develop the region for transition to self-rule by the Jewish and Arab occupants. The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan was set up in 1923, occupied mostly by Arabs, and it comprised 77% of the Mandate area.
The Jews have had a continuous presence in the Holy Land for over 3000 years, and even during periods of displacement they have remained a unique group. There is hard evidence of the Jewish people having lived in that region by the tombs of their ancestors, thousands of places of worship, their coins, kings, specific language, written evidence by contemporary powers such as the Romans, and their religious traditions of saying "next year in Jerusalem" as just one example.
I also don't put any credence on any so-called 'holy books'. Though if I was a Muslim I would be obligated to accept the revelations in Qur'an Surah al-Ma'idah that say Allah has given the Holy Land to the children of Israel.
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@rosestewart1606 : That's incorrect. When the Jewish people pledged their support to the British in the First World War they were promised that, if the Allied Powers were victorious over the Germans and Ottomans, they would have the chance to reconstitute their ancestral homeland, so long as all current occupants were given equal rights. Today all Israeli Arabs, Druze, Circassians, and other minorities, have equal rights with the Jewish people of Israel.
The Allied Powers WON the war in 1918 and the Ottoman Empire ceded its Middle East land to the British, French, etc. This is ALL well documented. At the 1920 San Remo Conference, The League of Nations unanimously voted to acknowledge the Jewish people as #indigenous to historic Palestine and the provisions of the Balfour Agreement were affirmed. When The League of Nations became the United Nations, that body also ratified the granting of the Jewish people the right to reconstitute their ancestral homeland because they were #indigenous to that land, having had a 'continuous connection' to it for over 3500 years. What don't you understand?
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@meganbaker9116 : All Israeli citizens DO have equal rights under the law. Arabs Muslims sit in the Knesset, on the Supreme Court, and they serve in the IDF (if they choose) and security forces, as well as in all top positions in business, industry, health, education, etc. Of course there is still some discrimination, but find me one country in the world which doesn't battle some kind of discrimination based on caste, religion, race, gender, etc.
It's great to listen to those people whom you've quoted but please also listen to opposing voices if you want a broad education on this topic. And be mindful that words are used for manipulation. For example the definition of 'apartheid' has recently been changed to make Israel appear in a bad light, where it has been extended to those people who are not governed by Israel. The so-called Palestinians have their own leaders and their own laws. Another word which is used a lot is 'occupied' rather than 'disputed' land. Don't be blind to this manipulation and propaganda.
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@martinportelance138 : Nations in wartime make all kinds of deals with allies. If the Jewish people hadn't sided with the British, WWI would probably not have been won by the Allied Powers. The Hejazi Arabs also sided with the British and they were promised land in the Middle East. When the Ottoman Caliphate was defeated, the British and French were under NO legal obligation to hand over the land to the occupants. But they did. Those Arab leaders who had sided with the British were granted self-rule in 99% of the carved-up Ottoman Middle East land, much of it rich in oil. Nothing for the #indigenous Kurds. Nothing for the #indigenous Assyrians. It was only the #indigenous Jews who were lucky to get a foothold in their own ancestral land because of their massive support to the war effort.
The Jews were acknowledged by the League of Nations in 1920 as the indigenous people of the Holy Land. They were given the chance to reconstitute their homeland in the area from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea, a mere 1% of the Ottoman Middle East land. The British later reneged on their promise to the Jews, mostly because of the belligerent Arabs in the area, many of whom had flooded in only AFTER the British and Zionists had created economic opportunities. But a proportion of Arabs accepted life in the Jewish state in 1948, and today one-fifth of Israeli citizens are Arabs who have 'equal rights and freedom of worship',
Israel should extend sovereignty over all of historic Palestine, and the Arab 'Palestinians' could be granted autonomy in the areas where they dominate. The Arabs have forfeited any right to their own state because they've never shown they would accept the Jewish state of Israel, nor have they demonstrated anything close to being able to form a government. They are corrupt, and it is more profitable for them to continue with terrorism against the Jews of Israel than to work towards creating a recognised state.
In 1918 there were NO international treaties which said the British and French couldn't KEEP any of the land that they had won in war. Wars are expensive and they sacrifice thousands of lives. Benjamin Freedman also said "the British never had any connection or any interest or any right in what is known as Palestine". Seeing as Palestine was a place of pilgrimage for thousands of British Christians, and the Crusades had been fought over taking the area back from the invading Muslims, he lost me with that totally ridiculous comment🙄. Israel has huge strategic and ideological value for both the UK and the US.
So is he implying that the British were fine to make deals with the Hejazi Arabs to win the war, but they shouldn't make any deals with the Zionist Jews regarding their ancestral homeland? What do you think?
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It's got nothing to do with the Holocaust. After the Ottoman Caliphate was DEFEATED in 1918, it ceded its Middle East land to the winners, the British, French, etc. They carved-up the Ottoman Middle East land and gave 99% of it to their allies, the Hejazi Arabs. Today those countries are Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. They also gave their other allies, the #indigenous Zionist Jews, the legal right to reconstitute their ancestral home in Palestine. It's a tiny 1% of land and one-fifth of Israeli citizens are Arabs and other minorities. The founding of the Jewish state of Israel is the beginning of the rollback of Arab Imperialism. I hope more countries will follow, such as a Kurdistan, a new Morocco for the indigenous Amazigh-Berbers, etc.
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@mmow004 : I'm proposing that the Arab countries be incentivised to give the 'Palestinians' citizenship after DENYING them this for the past 75 years. The Arab League did so in order to keep the 'displaced' peoples as "perpetual refugees" in an attempt to destroy Israel from the inside, after losing many wars waged against Israel.
Just because people have lived in a place for many generations it doesn't mean they are "indigenous" to that place. Examples of indigenous peoples of the Levant and Mesopotamia are Jews, Samaritans, Druze, Kurds, and Assyrians. Arabs and Bedouin are mostly indigenous to the Arabian Peninsula.
In the last 110 years around 80-100 MILLION people were displaced when people didn't "fit" with the new countries being formed. 16 million South Asians changed countries in 1947 when Pakistan was formed. 1.5 million Greeks/Turks were forced to change countries in 1924 when Turkey was formed. Around 800,000 thousand Jews were persecuted and had to leave their ancestral homes in Arab countries after Israel was formed. Do these people still moan and whine today? Do they get billions in funding like the 'Palestinians'? Do they have their own special UNRWA that employs thousands of people?
When the Ottoman Empire was defeated in 1918 it ceded its land to the Allies who were under NO legal obligation to hand it over to the occupants. But they did. The Hejazi Arabs (who were the largest imperialist/colonising force in the known world at one time) got 99% of the land, much of it oil-rich. Today those countries are Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and Jordan.
The #indigenous Jews want less than 1% to reconstitute their ancestral home. Land which they've had a 'continuous connection' to for 3,500+ years. It was promised to them in return for their support to the British in WWI, and they share it with one-fifth Arab Israeli citizens whose families accepted life in a Jewish state in 1948.
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@TheIsraeliHasbaraManual : It's not MY definition. This is the World Bank definition: "Indigenous Peoples are distinct social and cultural groups that share collective ancestral ties to the lands and natural resources where they live, occupy or from which they have been #displaced. The land and natural resources on which they depend are inextricably linked to their identities, cultures, livelihoods, as well as their physical and spiritual well-being."
The Copts are the majority of the indigenous people of Egypt, but there are also Nubians (in the north), Siwans, a Berber ethnic group (in the west) and Tarabin Bedouin (in Sinai). The Assyrians are indigenous to areas of north-west Syria, the Kurds to northern Syria, and so on. The Arab culture has been superimposed on top of the indigenous cultures of Egypt, the Levant, and across North Africa. There are no ancient 'Palestinians'. It is a label invented in the 1960s to achieve a political purpose. I'm happy to call them Palestinian but to pretend they are "a people" in the sense of having a unique culture, with ancient history, a specific language, etc., is just ridiculous.
The leaders of the West Bank and Gaza have yet to acknowledge the right of the #Jewish state of Israel to exist. There can be no peace until that happens.
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@b.g.9158 : What is the "unique social group" that the Palestinians belong to? The label 'Palestinian' was only invented in the 1960s. The Palestinians are Arabs, many of them from families which migrated to the land only AFTER the British and Zionists made it economically viable from 1920 onwards.
DNA is not a criteria for indigeneity. It's the "continuous connection to the land by a unique social or cultural group" that matters. The Jewish people have a unique language, ancient kings, coins, and artefacts. They have ancestral burial places, archeological evidence of traditional meeting places and places of ritual, all in the land we know today as Israel, with its capital of Jerusalem. It doesn't matter where in the world they've been displaced to. For example, when the Romans took Jewish slaves to Europe, these Jews are still #indigenous to THEIR land even if their descendants ended up living in Poland, or Russia or Germany. One-fifth of Israeli citizens today are Arabs whose families made a good decision to accept life in the newly founded state of Israel in 1948.
"We are not living in the 20th century". Is this your argument against offering people the CHOICE of resettlement in a country like mine, Australia? Please stop using these people as your #weapons against the Jewish state of Israel. Let them move, if they want to, so that their children can have a chance at a better life.
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