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Sandy Tatham
Lex Fridman
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Comments by "Sandy Tatham" (@sandytatham3592) on "Omar Suleiman: Islam | Lex Fridman Podcast #352" video.

You've only heard about the sugar-coated version, the westernised Islam.
14
@mifflinfinity : Muslims as people are great. They are full of humanity and kindness, and most of them are FAR BETTER than Islam. Most have never read the Qur'an (believed to be the literal word of Allah), Hadiths (the traditions of Muhammed), The Sira (biography of Muhammed), or Tafsirs (explanations). However, there are Muslims who are very devout, who follow all of the fundamentals of the ideology, and who are thus very knowledgeable about the obligations and the aim of Islam, which is to subjugate the whole world to Allah. If they live in places where Islam is in power, they can act on their obligations. Muslims in the west are, thankfully, not in power and around one quarter of them leave Islam once they investigate the ideology that they've been born into. Islam is primarily a political-legal ideology which encompasses every aspect of life, including that of the lives of Unbelievers (infidels, kaffirs). Why do you think that today there are still many Islamic countries which have the death penalty for Muslims who dare to leave Islam?
13
@freeyourmind7538 : I'm glad I gave you something unexpected to think about. Here's another. I disagree with your statement here: "The beauty of islam is that, its NATURALLY good." I have observed that Islam has horrible rights for women and girls. Marriage of prepubescent girls is permitted [Qur'an 65:4, #Sunnah], divorce is unequal, there is no consent required for sex in marriage, wife beating is permitted if a man even fears his wife's disobedience, multiple wives are permitted for men which results in commodifying females and creating less stable societies by denying poorer men access to life partners, and sex slavery is one of the 'booties' of capturing infidels. There are probably more things but this is a start. Finally, it is possible for two things to exist and yet be contradictory. *Islam is full of contradictions*. Those who favour the path of struggle against the unbelievers can find plenty of traditions to support their actions. Peaceful Muslims like you draw mostly upon the earlier Mecca traditions and Qur'an chapters. Islam was 'revealed' over 23 years and became progressively more violent against unbelievers as Muhammed grew in power and stature.
5
@NobodySpecial420 : It's irrelevant to unbelievers like me how you and other peaceful Muslims interpret Qur'an 9:111, or how you do your mental gymnastics to say that other Muslims get it wrong. What matters is that SOME Muslims believe that this verse can be cited as the reason for their violence. And I don't believe that "every single verse was revealed in context of a situation". Can you say that Qur'an 34:4 about disobedient women is limited to some 7th century context? And that marriage, sex with, then divorce of girls who have not [yet] menstruated in Qur'an 65:4 is also limited to the 7th century, particularly as marriage to a prepubescent girl was part of the tradition of Muhammed? #Aisha
5
@zahidakhanom5419 : I'm not religious and not 'hasty or mad'. I'm an educator. I can also quote from the Qur'an to illustrate a point. "Allah has indeed purchased from the believers their lives and wealth in exchange for Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah and k___ and are k_____. This is a true promise binding on Him in the Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran. And whose promise is truer than Allah’s? So rejoice in the exchange you have made with Him. That is ˹truly˺ the ultimate triumph."
4
@HoussamB : So how do Muslims define innocent these days? Can a disbeliever be "the worst of creatures" and also innocent? [Qur'an 98:6] Can a disbeliever who is critical of Islam be innocent?
4
@islammohamed7375 : If "regimes don’t follow religion" then why do they have Islam in their country name and Islamic Sharia and the Qur'an in their Constitution? Saudi Arabia even has the sword of Muhammed on its flag, I think? I said that Islamic leaders of jihad organisations like Al-Qaeda, and also individual suicide attackers, often cite Qur'an 9:111 as justification for what they do in the name of Allah. This is not my interpretation. I know that millions of Muslims also don't like this interpretation. But what can we do? Can some higher authority in your ideology rule that it's not a VALID interpretation? I focus on Islam mostly because it has horrible rights for women and children and there is no freedom to leave the religion or to be critical of it. Islam also appears to be involved in the majority of terror attacks around the world. I could spend every minute worrying about other atrocities but I travel mostly in Muslim-majority countries so that's what I see all around me. Why don't YOU tell me "one positive thing about Islam"? Then we can discuss that.
4
@islammohamed7375 : I did listen carefully to the whole video, but having lived and travelled in Islamic countries for the last 20+ years I see a common thread. Islam itself is a kind of tyranny. There’s little freedom for criticism or dissent. That’s not to say that democracies like my countries Australia and New Zealand are perfect, just that they can implement laws which are always evolving to suit new research and the consensus of leaders and the people. They don’t always get it right, but the status of women and girls in the West is better without polygamy, child marriage, rape in marriage, wife beating, inequality in divorce, etc. As for geopolitical alliances, they are always shifting and some of the Sunni nations which are rich with oil can hold their own without going into the #victim mode that I often see in the Muslim world. I see their power as a good thing as it brings more balance.
3
@shariqusoof5649 : As a non-religious person, it's NOT my place to analyse the Qur'an. I just observe which scriptural references some Muslims cite when they carry out a terror attack that impacts upon the wider world. You might not like such interpretations by Islamic fundamentalists, but that is totally irrelevant in the big scheme of things.
3
@islammohamed7375 : I don't believe my comments were disingenuous because in Islam it is permitted (halal) to strike a disobedient wife, to marry a child, to marry more than one wife, etc. In the West we have laws that prohibit violence against any person, including between marriage partners. Of course it still happens, but there is due process of law to save the victims against any repetition. We also have laws against pedophilia, multiple wives, and underage marriages. I have seen women in Syria and Egypt who were regularly beaten by their husbands, and I've seen child brides in Yemen, and they had no way to be rescued. I agree with you on the tragedy of the increase in single parenthood. I am a huge advocate for one man and one woman raising children together. But there is a minority of people who do it differently, for example two women or two men raising children, and many of these can also work out fine. Just because Islam "teaches you how to navigate" through difficulties, it doesn't mean that Muslim-majority cultures manage to achieve anything better. Research has shown that Muslim countries are the worst places for female rights and for life as a female.
3
@yarmanjulaika5413 : My focus is on Islam because I live mostly in Muslim-majority countries. I think ALL organised religions have bad rights for women and girls, but Islam is the absolute worst of them all. I was invited to become a Muslim by some of my Muslim friends and what I discovered in the Islamic doctrine shocked me. I find that Christianity is the 'best of a bad bunch'. At least it's not a complete way of life (a deen) including law and politics. #Sharia
3
@hoodietay2083 : I have heaps of Muslim friends!!! And I criticise Islam all the time with them. My problem with smooth-talking Imams like Omar Suleiman is that they don't discuss the controversial dimensions of Islam. For example, the terrible rights for women and girls (child marriage, multiple wives, no consent for sex in marriage, wife-beating, guardianship, inequality in divorce, to name a few things). They also don't say much about the perpetual "jihad in the way of Allah" that occurs on a daily basis in some part of the world, and the creeping #sharia in the West. Around 15 years ago I was invited by some Muslim friends in Morocco to become a Muslim. I said I must first study Islam before I can accept it. And what I found shocked me. And that was before the wave of fundamentalist Salafism had swept through the Middle East and North Africa, and women had begun to cover totally in black, and girls were rarely seen. Since then, we've had the Arab Spring and now conditions are either more authoritarian or unstable in those countries. My heart will not give up on fighting for all females and children to have the rights that we follow in the west, ie. those found in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This includes the child's right to have genital autonomy. All boys born into islam have their penis mutilated in the name of Islam. That's child #abuse. I don't care what a grown man does to his body, and what 'covenants' he makes with his god, but a child cannot give informed consent. Without having any say over it, he loses around one third of the sensitivity and natural functioning of his penis. It's barbaric.
3
I was thinking the exact same thing. An ex-Muslim who knows Islam from the inside. There are many I could think of for Lex to speak to.
2
@ayee4363 : I'm not doing any interpreting of Qur'an verses. I listen to what Muslim scholars say, and there's a wide discrepancy in their interpretations, and in the rulings from the four major schools of Islamic jurisprudence. If the former leaders of Al Qaeda believe they have a VALID interpretation of Qur'an 9:111, then who am I (or you) to say it was taken out of context? I also value what Ahmed Mohamed Ahmed El-Tayeb, Grand Sheikh of Al-Azhar, says.
2
@Remyyalta : As an Unbeliever living in the Middle East, I take notice of what ALL Muslims SAY and DO. I am not able to assess whether leaders like Osama bin Laden or Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi had the last word on Islam, nor can I say that the spiritual Sufis have it right. None of this is my business as a kaffir, an infidel. I just notice what Muslims say and do, and even that can change very quickly. Politics in the Middle East is impossible to separate from religious ideology. Islam is a complete way of life (a deen), with laws for Muslims and laws for how the Unbelievers are to be treated. It's not just a personal religion, like Christianity is. Islamic countries have Constitutions which say that the Qur'an and the traditions of Muhammed (the Sunnah) are what guide their governments. You are right that a huge number of Muslims have never studied their scriptures. They are happy to believe what they've been told, and Islam has a very mesmerising quality, especially in the five daily prayer format and the soft words of their sheikhs. Islamic fundamentalism is also attractive to those young men who don't see themselves getting married easily (polygamy ensures that there is a shortage of females), and if they are killed in the act of jihad against the Infidels it is believed they are able to intercede in Heaven for up to 70 relatives [Sunan Abi Dawud 2522], which is of great value. These young men are also very useful to their powerful and corrupt leaders as jihadi warriors. But maybe Islam has always been like that? It only gained a significant following after Muhammed received the 'revelations' about jihad, war booty and sex slaves. For his first 13 years of relatively peaceful preaching, he attracted a very small number of around 175 followers. Then during his ten years in Yathrib (Mecca) he grew very quickly in power and stature, and raids on caravans and villages began. Quite soon after his death, Islamic militaries had invaded and conquered the largest area of the known world at that time.
2
@knightkiller329362 : I have had hours of discussions with Muslim scholars and sheikhs, with Muslims who are fundamentalists or Sufi spiritualists, and also with unschooled Muslims who simply love what they know about Islam. I've also had long discussions with Muslims who have begun to doubt what they've been told about Islam, and with Muslims who have left Islam but can't come out in public because they would be put in prison or even killed by their family or community. I'm someone they can trust to talk to. I've spent weeks and months in Muslim majority countries including Sudan, Yemen, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Kashmir India, Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, Syria, Turkey and Jordan. I think it's very important to debate religion in the 21st century. That's why I try to reply to as many comments as possible, and I make myself free when someone asks to debate me in person or online through other means. Peace and love to you too...🙏
2
@loveandotherthings1455 : Muslim leaders have been saying for the last ten or so years that they are very concerned about the increasing trend for Muslims to leave Islam. We have the internet and social media to thank for that! All praise be to the Creator...🙏 Muslim scholars also say that only about three out of ten converts to Islam remain in the faith after three years. They just fade into the background, because it can be very dangerous to speak out if you've left the faith.
2
@yarmanjulaika5413 : That's NOT in agreement with me. I believe the Bible is a book of historical record for the most part. It's about a certain group of people and their God, and covenants made with their God for a certain place and a certain time. Most of what happened stays back in THAT time. A devout Christian will follow the 'teachings' of Jesus, which are commands that last over ALL time. They include "LOVE thine enemy". Jesus came to fulfil those old covenants, so they are no longer applicable today. No doubt a Christian scholar will say I've got it a bit wrong but, for the most part, this is the idea of being a Christian. A Christian vows to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". The Christian God loves ALL his people, even the sinners. This is very different from the 'god' of Islam, Allah, who only loves those who love him and who calls the Unbelievers *the worst of creatures*. [Qur'an 98:6].
2
@mnljh711986 : I'm not disputing what Imam Omar Suleiman said, just that he told a 'sugar-coated' version of Islam. He didn't tell the whole story and Lex didn't question him very much. And Islam is nothing like the teachings of Jesus, who was a Jewish man talking about peace and love. Muhammed was a Bedouin Arab warlord. He had sex with slave girls, he had sex with his prepubescent child bride #Aisha when he was over 50 years of age, and he had people killed when they criticised his leadership. Muhammed began receiving 'revelations' in Mecca. The 'revelations' were relatively peaceful for 13 years, but he only attracted around 175 followers. It was only after Muhammed moved to Yathrib and received the 'revelations' from his god that there would be war booty and sex slaves for his mujahideen that he gained a significant following and grew in power and status. I think that tells us a lot.
2
@yarmanjulaika5413 : Sorry, but you're wasting your time with me. I'm NOT religious at all. But if I did choose a religion, I would probably go with the teachings that Jesus gave to the world...🙏
2
@yarmanjulaika5413 : Yes I live in Muslim countries and yes I am critical of the ideology that the people follow. Should critical thinking stop just because you have a safe place to live? What if you have Muslim friends coming to you complaining of partner abuse, or having to accept that their husband is taking a second or third wife because you have nowhere else to live, or you want a divorce but you'll lose your children, or you are one of the persecuted minorities in that country, or your husband wants to marry off your prepubescent daughters? How would any civilisation progress if it was forbidden to think critically? PS: Why don't you make your identity clearer? Where do you live?
2
@knightkiller329362 : I like the followers of Islam. It's the ideology itself that has some serious flaws which should be critically examined. But I'm not worried. The internet and social media are doing a great job in creating the growing trend for Muslims to leave Islam. #SilverBullet
2
@goshbaby8531 : How do fundamentalist Muslims define 'innocent'? How do hardline Muslims define 'Muslim brethren'? Are Shias the right kind of Muslims? Are Sufis the right kind of Muslims? Are Unbelievers who question Islam 'innocent'? What the heck do you mean by 'modern' Islamic countries? Islam and modernity don't go together, but you know that...🙄
2
@islammohamed7375 I live in Muslim-majority countries for most of each year. I learn about Islam through my Muslim friends and from what I see around me, plus I have been studying Islam online since being invited to become a Muslim about 14 years ago. Global politics and shifting power alliances are involved in everything, of course, but I am also very aware that Islamic sharia is not compatible with modernity. Islam is also not compatible with the freedoms of conscience and expression that we follow in the Judeo-Christian west. It's very easy for an Imam to present a sugar-coated version of Islam. I'm interested in the complete picture of this ideology. I would prefer to talk about how the chaos, civil wars, poverty, low socio-economic conditions for females, terrorism, and other negative issues of the Islamic world can be solved. For example, I want people who are born into Islam to have the freedom to be critical of it and also to safely leave the ideology if they choose to do so. I'm in Egypt right now and it is not possible for a person born into a Muslim family to convert officially to Christianity. I find this barbaric in the 21st century.
2
@Zeila1 : Let's get it right: nine Palestinian militants (terrorist, jihadis) were neutralised before they could carry out a planned attack on Israeli civilians.
1
The only authentic part of this talk was in the last 30 mins when Imam Omar told Lex how he feels about the Israel-Palestine conflict. #TrueColours #Islamism
1
@YEAGERlST : No, on the contrary, this is part I enjoyed because he became more engaged, more passionate, more authentic. For the other 2.5 hours he was talking like he was delivering a sermon or a lecture. Why do you say it makes him look bad?
1
Most Muslims are far better than Islam. But Omar's video justifying the child marriage permitted in Islam [Quran 65:4] is pretty sickening. #Aisha #Sunnah
1
@amine445 : Just follow the news. Why do you think the Iranian man Sajjad Heydari beheaded his very young wife? Was she "not a good enough Muslim" according to him?
1
@rasheed9705 : It's only Islam that is stuck with a 7th century Bedouin Arab culture. Many Muslims have tried to reform Islam but they have all failed (or been killed) because most Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the literal world of your god, and not a letter of your holy book can be changed. Do you think Islam is compatible with 21st century modern life? Do you think that Islamic rights for women and girls are compatible with the human rights practised by the majority of the world today? Do you think that Apostates from Islam should be killed?
1
@rasheed9705 : I totally agree that the majority of the world's Muslims are not Arabs. But Islam was founded by a Bedouin Arab and it enshrines that 7th century nomadic culture in its doctrine. North African Berbers are not Arabs but they were invaded and had the Arab culture forced upon them. Same with the Copts in Egypt, the Persians in Iran, etc. Islam was the greatest imperial force in the world at one time. Islam is primarily a political-legal ideology, which has religion as its 'cover'.
1
@rasheed9705 : Christianity teaches separation of church and state, so if Christian nations are practising slavery it is a human error. And it goes against the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that most nations with Christian values have agreed to uphold. Islam, on the other hand, does enshrine slavery. Muhammed bought and sold slaves, he had sex with his slave girls, and today there are many Muslim majority countries, eg. Algeria, Libya, Mauritania, Nigeria & Sudan, where black people are owned as chattel slaves by Arabs & Muslims. I recommend the recent video by Dr Charles Jacobs "Arabs and Muslims Have Black Slaves".
1
@zahidakhanom5419 : That verse from Quran 9:111 is often cited by devout Muslims, like OBLadan before a major terror attack, or by individual suicide bombers to say that their 'god' commanded them to k___ civilian kaffirs.
1
@freeyourmind7538 : Thanks for the video recommendation but it seems the young man has a blind spot. I read and hear all the time about how Muslims have saved people, eg. Jewish families were protected in Iraq during the Farhud by Muslims, Muslims sheltered Christians in Kenya when a bus was attacked by Al Shabab, and many Muslims risked their lives to save Jews from the Nazis during Holocaust. This is all well-documented. I would say it is their natural, kind, compassionate, human nature that causes Muslims to help others, rather than some particular religious inspiration. Of course nothing is black and white, but since studying Islam and living in Muslim majority countries for the last 13 years, I've found that most Muslims are better than Islam.
1
@georgeeinarsson5956 : Thanks for your backup.
1
@freeyourmind7538 : I don't follow any religious doctrine, though I do like the teachings of Jesus and some other Ascended Masters. I practice Transcendental Meditation and yoga, and I believe in reincarnation. I communicate with the spiritual dimension and Source Creator, though I'm a pragmatic realist for most things relating to our Earthly dimension.
1
@NobodySpecial420 : My bias is towards evidence of claims. I've spent hours trying to find evidence that pagan Arabs had the widespread custom of burying alive their healthy girl babies and I can't find anything other than a mention in a poem a few hundred years after the life of Muhammed. If you could provide me with a link to some evidence I would appreciate it. Otherwise I have to assume that it was a 'story' that, when repeated often enough, it becomes believed. This is what we call today an 'urban myth'. Same with your idea that the "legal age of marriage within Islam is puberty". Can you provide me one scriptural references to back this up? No Muslim so far has been able to. Probably because there is none, and Islamic scholars are clear that there is no lower age limit for marrying off your daughter, only that you should ensure her body won't get damaged by sexual penetration when she is still very small. Thankfully, Muhammed was infertile in his older years and didn't impregnate his child bride, prepubescent Aisha, otherwise she might have died giving birth. Today in countries like Iran, Yemen and Afghanistan it is often preferred that a girl attain the age of puberty in the house of her husband so he can be sure that he is the only one who is having sex with her. She also becomes more malleable when married off before attaining sexual maturity, and less likely to be disobedient. If Arab women were "not allowed to inherit", can you tell me how Muhammed's first wife Khadija became a wealthy businesswoman? And these things that Muhammed supposedly revealed to improve the life of Arab women was a pretty low bar to set because other cultures in the surrounding areas of today's Israel, Jordan and Egypt had much better standards of rights for women. Even Aisha said "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women." [Sahih al-Bukhari 5825] Did I mention anything about a veil? How Muslim women or any other women dress doesn't really bother me. The Bible is a very different collection of writings than the Qur'an, which is believed by Muslims to be the literal word of Allah as revealed to Muhammed. The Bible is a 'descriptive' book which tells of certain covenants made by certain people for a certain time. If the Qur'an was the same, then Muslims could reject a lot of things that don't sit well with them in the 21st century. But we all know that straying even a tiny bit from the words of the Qur'an, or the Sunnah of Muhammed, is haram.
1
@islammohamed7375 : Subjugating people doesn't mean converting them to your faith. It means making them lower-class citizens, under your control, ie. #dhimmis. If there's no compulsion in religion, why is it reported that Muhammed said "whoever changes his religion, k*ll him"? And why do at least nine Islamic countries today have the death penalty for anyone who commits #apostasy from Islam? Why can't a person born into Islam in Egypt, for example, convert to Christianity and have that noted on his ID rather than him being forever a Muslim? So much for "no compulsion..." Why do Muslims agitate for their own religious requirements, such as Islamic prayer times, halal food, sharia courts for divorce, blasphemy laws, multiple wives, child marriage, etc. if they agree to "follow the law of the land they live in" when they come to the West? Why do around 25% of Muslims leave Islam when they come to live in the West? #PewSurvey My 'agenda' is to promote FREEDOM for everyone to believe whatever they want, so long as they don't hurt anyone else.
1
@dopaminegaming3052 : I agree that many Muslims memorise the Qur'an, or parts of it, but I know from personal discussions with many Muslims in South Asia that they don't understand what they are saying as they don't speak Arabic. Most of the Muslims in the world are from outside the Middle East or North Africa. Apostasy from Islam today carries the DEATH penalty in at least nine countries, and harsh punishments are applied in many others, either by governments, or by families and communities. I'm less interested in the historical application of Sharia, and more focussed on what Islamic countries and cultures DO TODAY. And I'm getting a little tired of that fairly meaningless phrase "no compulsion in religion" which Muslims are so fond of quoting. I was invited by Muslim friends to become a Muslim, hence my initial reason for studying your scriptures. I discovered that if I had accepted Islam, I might not be able to freely leave the faith (which was starting to seem more like a cult). Then I found out that the rights for women and girls were horrible. Also that there is no freedom of speech, no freedom to critically analyse the doctrine. That's why I speak out when I see people like Sheikh Omar Suleiman who only present the 'sugar-coated version' of Islam. Your English is great. Well done for being fluent in three languages!
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@M1KeHD : Exactly.
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@islammohamed7375 : Can you give me any scriptural evidence that Qur'an 34:4 limits the punishment as "hit her ONE time with a light stick"? Or are you just joking around with me? For the last 15 years I've lived mostly in the Muslim-majority world and I've listened to countless people tell me how their father hit their mother, or how Islam permits physical punishment of wives (ie. it's halal), etc. I've seen domestic violence of females in Yemen and Damascus, Syria, also child marriage. It's VERY difficult for a wife to obtain a divorce in Islam, she will likely lose her children in divorce, and she has few options for surviving, so don't give me any of that RUBBISH either. The West is not perfect, but we have laws to protect women who are in bad marriages. Allowing men to marry multiple wives reduces females to 'commodities' and sets up the wives and their respective children in competition for one man's affection and his financial resources. It's well-known that cultures which permit men to marry more than one wife all sit at the lowest level for human rights for women and children.
1
@goshbaby8531 : It's widely known that these practices are both PERMITTED (halal) in Islam. There is NO concept of a wife's consent being required for sex in an Islamic marriage. He can rape her. And a man is allowed to physically strike his wife, even if he only 'fears her disobedience' [Qur'an 34:4]. Females are commodified in Islam. Thankfully, the vast majority of Muslim men today have better morals than 7th century Islam.
1
@EAGLE29-TIME “But the Mahommedan religion increases, instead of lessening, the fury of intolerance. It was originally propagated by the sword, and ever since its votaries have been subject, above the people of all other creeds, to this form of madness.” Author, Sir Winston Churchill
1
@EAGLE29-TIME : This is silly. We can't be sure if Muhammed was even a real person! The earliest biographies come decades later and are based on oral tradition, rather than on direct historical accounts. It's all conjecture. But there is hard evidence of what Islamic invaders did in the centuries since the founding of Islam. And a lot of it included wielding a sword, and enforcing sharia and Arabic language and culture on the people in invaded territories.
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@muhammedmar : Like I said earlier, most Muslims have better morals than Islam. The problem is that there are still plenty of Muslim men today who believe that Qur'an 34:4 gives them the right to be guardians over their wives and daughters, and that they are permitted to BEAT their wives even if they only fear their disobedience. A culture that permits men to have multiple wives will ALWAYS commodify the females in that culture. Being able to divorce women easily only adds to the insecurity of those women. Multiple wives and their offspring will always have to compete with that one man for his financial and emotional resources. While it might have had a place in the warlike Bedouin Arab culture of the 7th century, it's a horrible practice to continue in the 21st century. And you mention that Aisha might not have been a prepubescent nine year old when her marriage to the prophet was consummated. So how do you explain Quran 65:4 which permits men to marry, have sex with, then divorce girls who have not menstruated? Doesn't that bother you?
1
@fnd-vw6zq : My opinion is not important. The fact that these ‘horrible men’ as you call them believe they are following a justifiable and valid interpretation of the Islamic texts is all that matters. And even if only 5% of Muslims follow this literal interpretation of the texts of Islam, that can mean millions and millions of hardline Muslims in the world today. And if you study the biography of the prophet Muhammed, you already know that he was a warlord whose traditions are still followed today. It was only after the prophet of Islam received ‘revelations’ allowing his mujahideen to keep war booty and sex slaves that he gained a large following and the tradition for invading and conquering the territory of Infidels began.
1
@fnd-vw6zq : You say “No where in the Quran states murdering of innocent loves (lives?) is fine.” So how do Muslims define innocent? If someone is openly critical of Islam and Muhammed, are they still innocent? If a Muslim wants to leave Islam and he tells people about his loss of faith and refuses to comply with practices such as fasting during Ramadan, is he innocent?
1
@jcj1942 Well said…🙏
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@mahyargharehdaghi9383 : There's plenty of "death penalty" mentions in the Islamic scriptures and the traditions. Around nine Islamic countries have the death penalty TODAY for leaving Islam, including Afghanistan, Maldives, Qatar, and the United Arab Emirates where apostasy is considered a 'hudud' crime. The "no compulsion in religion" verse is for non-Muslims. You can't force an unbeliever to become a believer. But if a person has been born into a Muslim family, he can't get out of the religion, unless he moves to a Western country where we have man-made laws which include freedom of religion and freedom of speech. What country do you live in?
1
@mahyargharehdaghi9383 : I'm not "making a claim". I'm stating LEGAL FACTS. Here's the list of ten countries which have the death penalty for male apostates from Islam today: Afghanistan, Brunei Darussalam, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates and Yemen. I don't believe this penalty comes from the Quran (many verses were lost). It comes mainly from Sahih Bukhari, Hadith No 84:57, where Muhammad said, “Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.” I don't care who comes to this conclusion, or how they make this interpretation, but you could easily pursue this question with Islamic organisations who offer free advice. I only care because Muslims have little freedom in the world. In most countries a person born into a Muslim family cannot convert out of Islam without being killed or punished severely. This is from Humanists International and the-right-to-apostasy-in-the-world... "In many other countries apostates face social stigma or are actively discriminated against or persecuted by the state... even when there are no official laws stating that ‘apostasy’ is illegal. For instance, in Kuwait, apostates can lose certain rights, like the right to inherit property from Muslim relatives. Moreover, the government does not issue documents stating a change in religion or belief, unless the person has converted to Islam, making apostasy de facto illegal." I know that in Egypt it is IMPOSSIBLE to legally or officially leave Islam if you've been born into a Muslim family. That means that your children, and their children, and their children will all remain Muslim no matter what they believe. It's a closed system which prevents Islam from losing any members. And if a person is known to have left their Islamic belief they might have trouble getting a job, or having work done on their home, or they will lose many other privileges which are taken for granted by the Muslim community. If an ex-Muslim speaks openly about not believing in Islam they will quite likely be jailed for a period of time, because it is said to cause "disruption in the land" if someone is believed to be critical of the dominant faith of the country. I've spoken to young men in both Morocco and Egypt who fear this. They said I must never tell anyone in the community about their lack of faith in Islam. They live in fear of being discovered and punished or shunned by their family and community. I hope this helps you. What country do you live in?
1
@hepticity : I'm only one third through but it's just a dawah session so far. I would challenge the rights that Islam grants to girls and women. Child marriage is disgusting (Qur'an 65:4 permits marriage to girls who have not yet menstruated, and Omar Suleiman has put out a video on this). Islam permits wife beating, non-consenual sex in marriage, multiple wives, inequality in divorce, guardianship of women, etc. I could go on and on.
1