Comments by "神州 Shenzhou" (@Shenzhou.) on "NDTV"
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Both India and China are countries with long history and diverse cultures. India is one of world's oldest cradles of civilization and China has 5000 years of history. India was birthplace of many of the world's oldest religions like Hinduism, Sikhism and Buddhism, of which Buddhism later spread to China, hence, the old Chinese name for India is Tianzhu (天竺) meaning "Heavenly Place". China also have Confucianism and Taoism, of which Confucianism later spread to Japan and Korea. Indian writing system like Sanskrit has influenced the writing of South East Asian countries like Myanmar and Cambodia, while Chinese writing has influenced Japan and Korea's writing systems.
As the world's most populous countries, we face possible overpopulation problems, which is why China has 1-child policy and India once had 2-child policy. With such a large student population, there is fierce competition for top schools and higher education. Our countries are also plagued with social problems like human rights issues, caste system, minority rights issues, different dialects and so on. We should cooperate to solve problems common to our countries instead of competing with one another.
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+skywalker jake. From my history about POK, Jammu and Kashmir was a princely state that was not originally part of either India or Pakistan. After the partitioning of India, J & K was reluctant to join either side and wanted to remain independent, but Pakistan invaded it. The leader was technically forced to either join India, or fend off the invaders on their own, so they joined India under pressure so that the Indian army will repel the intruders.
But the "liberation" did not happen, which is why POK exists till today. POK has existed for almost 70 years (as old as Pakistan as a nation) and Indian government has made almost no attempt to claim POK for India. So how important is J & K to India? It is your territory by agreement, but India has not tried to reclaim it. This is just a brief summary of the history though.
Like I mentioned, other regional neighbors have recognized the benefits CPEC has on Pakistan and the surrounding region. Afghanistan wants to play a role in CPEC (dawn(dot)com/news/1289978) and so does Iran (dawn(dot)com/news/1285404). China vetoing mashood is only at Pakistan's request and China doesn't really care about Mashood, but we do care about our relationship to Pakistan. Just like I mentioned China doesn't care about POK or claiming POK as its own, we are just doing business there according to CPEC and when we are done, we will leave and the benefits of the infrastructure, pipelines and so on all go to the owner of the land, not China.
In summary, most of India's problems with China lie with Pakistan. For China-India relationship to truly progress, India would have to mend its broken relations with Pakistan. Don't blame China for problems that have been occurring between Pakistan and India for decades. We are just trying to develop the region and don't really care about geo-politcial issues between other countries.
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+skywalker jake Of course, China also benefits from this deal. We are running a business here, not a charity. CPEC is also expected to boost China's economy through supplying of cement and steel, as well as Chinese engineers being sent over to construct the infrastructure. But like I said, the finished buildings and infrastructure belongs to the owner of the lands, which is currently held by Pakistan. China will have trade access to Gawadar port, but will have to pay Pakistan for the use of the railway, and Pakistan can generate profit through the high volume of traffic of goods.
CPEC has risks from terrorism and sabotage no doubt, but it is a risk that both Pakistan and China (actually, more risky for China) are willing to take to lay the foundation for improved economic relations in the region. Iran and Afghan may or may not join CPEC, but if the lines and railroads are running smoothly and without terrorist incident, then sooner or later, they might want to get involved. If the CPEC becomes a vital artery of Pakistan, then their government may finally become more strict on their terrorist crackdowns, since now it involves their vital trade route.
Like I said, vetoing and protecting the terrorist is a politically motivated move by China to support Pakistan. China is not well known for using veto on UN decisions as China has used the least number of vetos (11 times)as a permanent member of UN, compared to US (70+ times) and Russia (100+ times). Clearly, China doesn't really interfere in international politics, and mostly uses veto for Pakistan's sake. So it all boils down to the relationship between India and Pakistan. If India wants that terrorist, India should get on Pakistan's good side, so that Pakistan would give China the green light not to veto and so on.
India and Pakistan's relations may have deeply frayed, but hopefully economic ties would mend the relation between India and Pakistan. It is not impossible, as Germany and Britain have long made up since WW2 and their economies are as strong as ever. China has also privately advised Pakistan to tone down its hostility against India and work together for mutual benefit.
Anyway, like you said, we are just two random people. But at least, we should look towards the future. Pakistan is going to be our neighbor for a long time in the foreseeable future, so shouldn't we work together instead of cause instability to the region? How long will India and Pakistan continue to fight each other? CPEC at least is an attempt to improve trade and relations in the region and future generations of Pakistanis, Chinese and maybe even Indian people will benefit from the project.
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+skywalker jake I understand that, as allies of USA, India will follow Western mindset towards terrorism, which is to use force against force. But that only solve the problem temporarily, and soon, another organization like ISIS will take up the mantle against US and other nations once again. This is short term solution and forms endless cycle.
Terrorism tend to take place in impoverished regions, so Chinese approach is different. We help develop the country infrastructure and economy first, helping to destroy the breeding ground for terrorism to grow from. That's why China has One Road, One Belt initiative, helping connect the poorer countries and CPEC is one of the first steps.
Yes, Pakistan is taking a loan, and also the building materials and engineers come from China, stimulating China's business. But once the projects are complete, Pakistan will generate revenue through high volume of traffic of the railroads and pipeline, and slowly repay the loan. It may take many years like 10-30 years (my random estimate), but it will eventually be repaid.
I've already gave many reasons for China's vetoing. It's Pakistan's idea, and China is uninterested in India-Pakistan politics and only interested in completing CPEC. I could also say that India has been harboring 14th Dalai Lama who is wanted by Chinese authorities since 1959. Talking to the Chinese government won't do India any good and India would have to take up this issue with Pakistan.
And no, I'm not a Buddhist, I am atheist/agnostic but I follow the traditional Chinese culture like worshiping my grandparents and so on.
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+skywalker jake Regarding the international resolution to Philippines and China, it was conducted by Permanent Court of Arbitration, which is not an agency of UN so how can it be termed international? China reserves the right not to accept the court's resolution since it is not UN.
I already said that China is only building on those disputed territory, but not claiming POK as part of China. Why repeat the same old points? It could have easily been Pakistani engineers instead of Chinese working and would it have made any difference? If India was so concerned about the Kashmir locals, then shouldn't India have liberated POK long ago instead of leaving it for about 70 years? (about as old as Pakistan)
Its alright if you don't share Chinese views about terrorism but do you have to be so rude about it? USA has been trying to solve the problem of terrorism for decades to no avail, so why not try an alternative approach? When countries are linked together by railroad and trade, will terrorists be so radical as to destroy their own country's economy? Will the government of the country tolerate terrorists disrupting their own life artery?
Terrorist recruit from poor and impoverish families to join in their ideologies. Increase economic trade and jobs will reduce the number of available people for terrorist to recruit, so yes, in a sense its all about money.
Regarding Dalai Lama, Chinese government has been requesting his handover from India since 1959, but India has refused for 50 years, so now India complains when China vetos Azhar in 2016-2017? Why do some Indians only think of themselves only and that they are always right? Can't Indians see from a perspective outside of their own? How are they going to get along with neighbors in the future?
Just because you don't share my same views doesn't mean you have to call my thinking delusional and so on. We won't know whether CPEC reducing terrorism works or not until it is complete in the future and unless we try, we will never get to the future.
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+sangram desai Its true that the leaders of terrorist groups may be educated, but its the poor desperate people that join these extremist organizations. Terrorist leaders promised their followers large sums of money to their families or inculcate extremists visions of the afterlife. Even in Europe and US, the extremists are people who are dissatisfied with the government or jobless or etc. So wouldn't improving economic progress of the country reduce the likelihood of people being recruited into extremism? Terrorist leaders don't blow themselves up, only their poor desperate followers do.
If POK is Indian territory, then India should either negotiate with Pakistan or take it back by force years ago. India had about 70 years to reclaim POK from Pakistan but has not done so even till today and of course Pakistan will try ways and means of claiming ownership over what it sees as its territory.
For example, why is Pakistan considered a thief when it shares the same history as India prior to the partition? It is not a thief stealing your valuables, it is your distant blood brother, who shares the same mother (British India) as India and is claiming territory based on that blood relation.
As Chinese, we do not really care about India and Pakistan's enmity towards each other, as long as we can do business. Pakistan and India have a long historical feud that is impossible for China alone to fix, but we can at least develop economies and link countries by trade to reduce conflicts.
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+skywalker jake I don't know why you keep bringing up those same few points. Does China claim POK as its own? No. but we are there to build infrastructure according to CPEC so we have no choice but to be there to help Pakistan build it according to CPEC. The primary issue is still between Pakistan and India to settle. China is not the only selling weapons to Pakistan, USA has been selling weapons and missiles to Pakistan for decades, so why doesn't India complain to USA too? Since India recognize Pakistan as an independent state, then our interactions with Pakistan is a bilateral relation between sovereign countries.
India also supported Bangladesh in its independence war from Pakistan, despite it primarily being a internal civil war fought within Pakistan. The Indian intelligence agency collaborated with Indian Army and began training a Bengali guerilla outfit called the Mukti Bahini. In international terms, this could be considered interfering in a civil war so that war was not really imposed upon India. The war resulted in Pakistan losing more of its territory which could be a reason why Pakistan saw India's involvement as a hostile act.
As for the Dalai Lama winning a Nobel peace prize, Obama also won the prize, despite involving America in another war so whats the point of peace? The 14th Dalai Lama has already been exposed as working with CIA in separatists attempts from China (Wikipedia: CIA Tibetan program).
Quoted from Wikipedia,
the 14th Dalai Lama criticized the CIA for supporting the Tibetan independence movement "not because they cared about Tibetan independence, but as part of their worldwide efforts to destabilize all communist governments". The Dalai Lama also claimed that the CIA Tibetan program had been harmful for Tibet because it was primarily aimed at serving American interests, and "once the American policy toward China changed, they stopped their help"
This is supported by the fact that once President Nixon visited China and opened China's market to the world, USA stopped caring about Tibetan independence. Today, USA as part of UN, recognises China's sovereignty over Tibet.
Back to India and Pakistan. You have a right to defend India's view but what's wrong with looking at the views of other countries? How is India going to mend its relations with Pakistan if it constantly looks out for itself only? China may appear outward to chase money only, but at least we are contributing to build the world economy. Its alright if you say my views on terrorism are naive, but how else does India propose to solve the problem of terrorism? Using force like USA? Wasn't ISIS a product of wars in the Middle East?
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+skywalker jake Well its sad that we can't come to an agreement. I agree that Chinese way of doing things is less democratic compared to India's, but things can get done faster our way. In India, whenever there is major project, the government needs to get consent of many people including those on the ground level, and so there will be a long delay, but in Chinese process it is faster because the government just proceed despite protests. Otherwise major projects like Three Gorges Dam would have taken very long time because of many factors. Its just our Chinese way.
I'm glad that you also see USA as seemingly warlike and we need other countries to balance it on the global scene. I admit that China doesn't know as much about terrorism between India and Pakistan, but Pakistan has been cooperating with China on extremism in Xinjiang, so the exists a possibility that Pakistan could work with India on settling their terrorists issues. Majority of China and India issues lie with Pakistan, so improving relations with Pakistan would definitely improve China's relation with India.
Anyway, I work as engineer in Shenzhen and I learnt most of my English from Hong Kong, so it follows British English instead of American or Australian English. Nice talking to you too.
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