Comments by "神州 Shenzhou" (@Shenzhou.) on "Doklam standoff: China warns of military operation" video.
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+Lemni Skate Chinese have PLA troops in Pakistan to protect construction of our roads and infrastructure there. CPEC is extremely costly project, and the government wants protect our investments from terrorists and possible sabotage is all. China does not claim Bhutan as part of our territory. Unlike Tibet, Bhutan had no history of being under the suzerainty of China, instead being under British suzerainty during the British Raj,
India doesn't claim Doklam/Donglong area as part of its territory, so how does building infrastructure in the disputed area threaten Indian sovereignty at all? But by sending troops there, they are entering Chinese territory uninvited. Bhutan claims Doklam as part of its territory, but hasn't shown any official proof to verify its claims, so how why does India just support Bhutan claims like that?
Our government has at least produced maps, and 1890 agreement to support our claims, unlike Bhutanese government. Why does India give Bhutan the benefit of the doubt then?
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+Global Thinker +nn bhardwaj China builds infrastructure and roads to help develop the economies of other less developed countries, like Pakistan, Kazakhstan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and South Africa.
-In Pakistan, China has $60 million dollar CPEC deal to build modern transportation networks, ports, energy projects to power Pakistan's economic growth.
-In 2009 China lent $10 billion to Kazakhstan to develop its industries.
-In 2007, China began construction of a 770-kilometre railway connecting the Tibetan capital of Lhasa with the Nepalese border town of Khasa, connecting Nepal to China's wider national railway network, as part of Qinghai railway.
-China loaned Nepal $7 billion dollars for construction of port in Hambantota.
-China has offered to construct nuclear power plants in Bangladesh to help power its economy.
-China has also build many roads, railways, schools, hospitals and hotels in Africa.
In short, China's dream is to make Asia and Africa strong, by building roads and helping these economies develop strong, stable economies. But India is against building of such roads, and constantly poses an obstacle to Asia's economic growth. What is India's dream of a growing Asia then? For poorly developed countries to remain poor forever? China does not follow USA's method of building 700+ military bases in other countries, but to develop economic links with countries so that prosperity can be shared.
How do Indians expect Asia to rise at all, if we aren't even allowed to build roads?
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+Global Thinker What is with your weird house and doorstep analogy? China builds roads within our doorstep, not mines and tanks. And it is Indian's troops that are currently stationed in Chinese territory and doorstep, so why can't the government request India withdraw its forces from our territory? India currently does not claim Doklam/Donglong, so how is that considered India's doorstep?
Why are you mocking me about sky is green? I provided evidence and links support my claim, but you provide only story about houses and neighbors to this discussion.
+Alex Johnson I have stated twice (now thrice) previously, that China does not claim Bhutan as part of China. Why don't you read my posts before posting redundant arguments? President Xi Jinping and President Durterte of Phillipines are settling our disputes peacefully through diplomatic means, so isn't that much better than war of any sort?
+ANUPAM RASTOGI It is bilateral issue between Bhutan and China, but is only made more complicated by Indian troops intervention. Why don't India withdraw its troops from Chinese territory first, and observe as neutral party, without taking sides in this bilateral issue? PLA troops may have erroneously entered Indian territory, but they withdrew in the end. Why don't Indian troops in China do the same as well, so we can maintain peace in the region?
+Sam D All you do is insult me. When did I insulted you at all? If you have nothing to contribute, then why post at all? You have not even attempt understand Chinese point of view too, and I am explaining it to hopefully prevent war from erupting.
+dibyendust Chinese diplomats have engaged with India many times, and even notified India ahead of our activities in the region. One of our requests was for Indians army to withdraw its troops from our territory is all, yet you still claim China has war frenzy?
+Aurora Hawk We don't want war, and would prefer peaceful dialogue instead. Better to to talk things out peacefully, instead of resort to violence. It is other people that childishly joke about war and nuclear weapons.
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+nn bhardwaj What is purpose of building roads southeast of China? That region already has plenty of roads and railways, so whats the need to connect them further? On the other hand, poorer regions in Western China often lack access to rest of China's prosperity, so why not develop those area instead?
Bhutan only claims that territory, but has not yet produced any evidence to support its claim to that Donglong at all. So because Bhutan claim our lands, means we aren't allowed to build roads in our territory?
+ANUPAM RASTOGI According to that link, it uses Google Earth to define borders of China, India and Bhutan, but how is Google Earth any more accurate at defining boundaries than Chinese maps? Which country in the world can claim territories using Google Earth as evidence? It is just a program that can be updated by anyone to suit their needs, but who uses it politically in territorial dispute?
What is known, is that China occupied Donglong for years, despite Bhutan claiming it. Both our countries have signed agreements in 1988 and 1998 to maintain the status quo. Donglong was under Chinese control before, and now, Donglong remains under Chinese control, so how has the status quo been broken at all? Bhutan never did control Donglong, despite claiming it as part of Bhutan.
It should also be noted, that China has explored various diplomatic channels to resolve the issue, but India has so far, shown a non-negotiation attitude. Even in this video, Chinese government strives for peaceful resolution to the issue, but Indian government has not said much. There has been 13 official statements by Chinese government, while Indian government has only 3 official statements, implying a lack of willingness to negotiate.
But at least I am glad you appreciate our efforts in other countries. Of course China has an agenda for developing those nations (which country in world doesn't?) but I would like to stress that we are offering infrastructural development to those countries. I am proud of my culture of course, as are many Indian people proud of theirs as well.
CPEC issues ultimately boils down to territorial dispute between Pakistan and India. Chinese workers simply are building roads in POK, and China does not claim POK as part of China. When the projects are complete, Chinese workers will vacate the area and leave it to Pakistan (or whoever the real owner is) In my opinion, it would be best if Pakistan and India could mend their issues and settle their differences, so that the whole region can progress smoothly.
China only "blocks" India's entry into NSG, possibly because of Pakistan. Like I mentioned above, China and India would possibly face less conflicts, if Pakistan and India were on better terms. Even as UNSC member, we have hardly used veto power and interfered with affairs of other countries. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_veto_power#Most_common_users
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+ANUPAM RASTOGI How is constructing road considered disturbing the status quo? Donglong has always been under China's control, so building roads there suddenly changes the status quo and disturbs the peace? Are you implying Indians sending their troops into Chinese territory is not considered disturbing the peace at all? China also wants peace and tranquility in Donglong, which is why there have been repeated requests for Indian soldiers to withdraw from the area.
If India have nothing against CPEC, then Chinese workers should be allowed to develop Pakistan according to terms of CPEC. Why going through POK considered unnecessary aggression? Chinese workers are only there temporary to build roads, and they will withdraw once the project is complete.
Chinese government using Indian's non-NPT is merely as an excuse, since Pakistan is also non-NPT, yet the government is supporting Pakistan's entry into NSG, but not India's. The reason therefore, has to be because Pakistan is against India's entry. There are few possible ways for India to enter NSG.
1. Pakistan and India mend relations, until Pakistan gives China the green light to approve India's entry to NSG.
2. India waits until China completes CPEC and therefore doesn't depend too much on Pakistan anymore, and allow India's entry into NSG.
3. India, somehow, shows that it a much more valuable ally to China, than Pakistan. Then Chinese government could possibly approve of India's entry into NSG.
This may sound cold and political, but that is how the government works. There is no place for kindness in field of international politics. China has been ever suspicious of India ever since PM Nehru granted asylum to 14th Dalai Lama after he fled from Tibet, which could have drove the government to Pakistan.
+Sam D China does not run charity, which is why the government expects to recover the initial investment and to profit from additional interest. Which bank in world, doesn't make money from charging interest for its loans?
Sri Lanka and other poor countries probably tried getting loans from IMF or World Bank, but either the loans aren't approved, or the loan amount is insufficient for proper economic development. China is taking a huge risk here, investing in these poorer countries with unstable government countries for long term. So of course, Chinese banks have to cover the risk involved to make the investment worthwhile.
How do you know if Sri Lanka would not be able to pay off its loans in future? Once the Maritime Silk Road is complete, it is expected that more ships will call upon Sri Lankan Harbor, and its economy will improve. What is the purpose of these developments at all, if not to improve the country's economy? It may take 20 years or more to pay off the loan, but it will eventually be paid, and the port and infrastructure will belong to their owners.
If you want successful examples, then it would be China's investments in Africa. China has built many new roads, railways, schools, hospitals, shopping centers and telecommunication projects. In Algeria, there is 1,000 km freeway built by Chinese workers. In Angola there is Benguela Railway, and in Djibouti there is newly completed railway to replace the old one.
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+Ashish Bagade It was Indian's troops that entered Chinese territory, yet you want PLA get out when Indian government constantly ignore Chinese government requests to withdraw?
+dibyendust This thread started by me, so what's wrong with me commenting here?
1. The video itself already reports Chinese government's adherence to peaceful resolution of the situation. At the 0.17 mark, it says "China urged India to immediately pull back the trespassing troops to Indian side of the boundary and call upon them to swiftly address the situation in a proper manner to restore peace and tranquility in border region"
If the Indian MEA and spokesperson and Foreign minister made it very clear that it is bilateral issue, then why are Indian troops inteferring with Bhutan-China issue at all?
2. What has China's support of Pakistan and CPEC got to do with Bhutan-China-India issue? If India is so against CPEC roads in POK, then why don't India send its troops over to POK and obstruct road construction there, like what it is doing here in Donglong?
3. How is this a ploy? China is issuing official statements to reduce tensions, but Indian troops are present in Chinese territory. Are you people really so eager for war and for Indian Army and PLA troops to die over this dispute?
4. I have never claimed that every Chinese investment is going to be completely successful. Chinese investments has had some successes and some failures, but the fact remains that Sri Lanka now has a port in its city. Whether the port change ownership, the port is still physically located in Sri Lanka, so how is it a bad thing for Sri Lankan economy?
5. China imports manpower, machinery and cement to Pakistan because Pakistan is unable to produce enough engineers for itself. Pakistan plans to train more engineers to slowly take over CPEC Chinese engineers in future, and is also planning to double its cement production to meet the demands of CPEC.
According to your source, Chinese companies are only "renting the land" to develop it by building hydroelectric powerplants there.
What has Japan and South China Sea got to do with this issue now? Japan does not claim any of the South China Sea Islands, so what is your point here?
The tension was generated when Indian troops entered Chinese territory, so how do you expect tensions to simmer down when it due to presence of Indian troops? The government has made repeated requests for Indian troops to withdraw to promote stability in that region.
India has also taken in 14th Dalai Lama, which killed many Chinese during the 1959 uprising. How is the deaths of Indians justified here, but not the deaths of Chinese?
+Sam D If you say China controlled by Pakistan, then isn't India controlled by Bhutan by sending its troops into Chinese territory?
So World Bank disapprove loans to Pakistan, means Pakistan should forever remain poor and undeveloped? Pakistan has terrorists because its economy is poor and the terrorist ranks are swelling with people unhappy in life. China's approach to terrorism is to build up Pakistan's economy, so that more people find work, instead of joining the terrorists.
So after 99 years, the port will still return to Sri Lanka, once the debt is paid off, isn't it? Why are you people so short sighted and only concerned with immediate gains?
+ANUPAM RASTOGI Phillipines did not went to ICJ, they went to Permanent Court of Arbitration, which is not an agency of United Nations, so why should China heed the court's decisions?
I have so many questions to answer, so who are you to demand answers out of me for simple things you could have researched yourself? Chinese troops still withdrew from Indian territory in the end, but Indian troops haven't withdrew from Chinese territory.
If you grant refuge to 14th DL, then you can't expect Chinese government forgive you for that. If India forever provide refuge, the you are bound to antagonize someone along the way. Why don't India provide asylum to US fugitive Edward Snowden who was whistleblower of CIA then, and see if USA doesn't become hostile to you?
China was granted permanent membership at UNSC during its creation, and nothing except amendment to UN charter, could ever kick a UNSC permanent off its position.
China also one of world's cradle of civilization, with history spanning 5000 years and considered to be one of world's continuous countries still alive today, whereas other civilizations like Rome and Egypt have faded to history.
Chinese people also do not want war with India, and the best way to avoid war, is for Indian troops to withdraw from Chinese territory since this is bilateral issue between Bhutan and China. India can always participate as neutral observer, without actively supporting any side in this dispute.
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ANUPAM RASTOGI Indeed, India is extremely diverse culture, and there are various sub-culture within each culture. Indians speak variety of dialects, over 1600 like you said, but somehow entire country manages communicate points across.
China too is similar to that regard, in that we has many different dialects like Cantonese, Min, Teochew, etc, of which Mandarin is only one dialect. Although mutually unintelligible, they all share the same written form of Chinese characters.
As two of worlds most populous countries, both India and China have problems relating to population, such feeding our people as well as being overwhelmed by our population. With such large student population, there is fierce competition for top schools and higher education institutions. There is fierce competition for jobs with such large workforce as well as other social issues like housing and so on. Both India and China should work to tackle issues common to both our countries, instead of going to war over territorial issues.
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+Sam D In the case of Hambantota in Sri Lankan, China and Sri Lanka have come to a deal where Chinese buys the majority of the stakes, while leaving Sri Lanka in charge of port security. We run a business, not a charity drive here, and the terms of the deal are agreed upon by both Sri Lankan government and Chinese government.
Regarding CPEC, it is long-term project between China and Pakistan, and once project is complete, Pakistan is expected to make money from the infrastructure to boost its economy and to slowly pay off its debt. It may take 10, 20 or even 30 years to pay off the loan, but it will be paid off eventually and the infrastructure will belong to Pakistan then. It is long term project after all, and our government does not run a charity.
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+Sam D What 300 year old map? Even the 1890 treaty with British isn't that old, yet you people quote Google Earth as evidence for your ridiculous claims? What makes Google Earth more reliable evidence than our maps and documents? Bhutan doesn't even have anything to show for its claims, yet India still side with it and willingly invade Chinese territory with troops?
+ANUPAM RASTOGI 14th Dalai Lama has never officially renounced his claim over Tibet. If he was truly remorseful, he would have surrendered to Chinese authorities, instead of being fugitive for almost 60 years. The truth is that 14th DL is old man, and the government is waiting for 14th DL to pass on once and for all.
The problem with Tibetan Buddhism is that people believe in reincarnation, and that the 14th DL may groom his own successor as the next Panchen Lama to continue his political agenda. Tibetan Buddhism suppose be above worldly affairs, yet 14th DL choose to involved himself in politics. The government wants to stop an endless repeating cycle of separatism by preventing 14th DL reincarnation.
Religion is not just spirituality alone, it can be deadly tool that people used over the years to achieve their political agenda, whether its Christianism or Islam and so on. Radical Islamists hijack Islam to convince their followers to commit crimes in name of their god or for rewards in the afterlife. The government is merely taking steps to stop 14th DL from continuing his political agenda, but the government does not ban Tibetan Buddhism at all.
PLA only entered Indian territory erroneously like I said earlier. Even afterwards, PLA troops withdrew after few weeks. What about Indian intrusion into Chinese territory, which has been for a month already and still ongoing?
Why is POK construction illegal? Even if Chinese people didn't do the construction, Pakistan people may choose to do it themselves, or even work with other countries on projects in POK. If India truly objects to POK construction, then India is welcome to send its troops to POK to obstruct road construction like it is doing in Donglong.
Who is are the ones with intense hatred towards Chinese people here? I began with "Chinese people don't want war", yet everyone responds with insults, name-calling and malicious posts. I tried to support my points with links whenever possible, but all you people do is dismiss them, calling me a fraud among other things. I deal in logic, but these Indians deal with emotions to justify their causes.
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+dibyendust 1. The title of the video is made by the video uploader not the Chinese diplomat and spokeperson. Why accuse me being hypocritical and biased, when you fail to even notice such details?
So it's become bilateral issue between India and China? India does not claim Donglong as part of its territory, so how has building roads there become bilateral issue between India and China at all?
2. If India is so opposed to Chinese building in disputed territory claimed by India, then why doesn't India enter POK and obstruct Chinese construction? In this case, the disputed territory is between Bhutan and China, not India, so why is India voluntarily sending its forces into territory it itself does not claim for itself? India claims POK, but India does not claim Donglong, so why are its troops there?
3. First off, China doesn't want conflict, which is why Chinese officials issued many official statements, including a willingness to settle this dispute peacefully. It is much better to settle dispute through talks and issuing more official statements, then it is to not talk at all So far, Chinese government has release multiple official statements, but they have fallen on deaf ears by Indian government. Furthermore, it is India that is sending its troops into Chinese territory. Is this how India's diplomacy works?
4. You have read the Hambantota port issue wrongly. Initially, the ownership of the completed port belonged to Sri Lanka, but in order to pay off the loan, 95% of revenue generated was used. Since such a deal was unsatisfactory for Sri Lankan government, our countries worked out a new deal, in which Chinese companies owned majority stake of the port, while Sri Lanka remains in charge of security. That way, Sri Lanka doesn't have to allocate 95% revenue generated into paying loans, and Sri Lanka retains the rights of security, which proclaimed that no military vessels shall call upon the port.
This is example of win-win situation that Chinese government strives for. If the deals are unsatisfactory, new terms can always be negotiated. You really think Sri Lanka is so poor that is has to sell majority stake of the port AND pay 95% of its revenue to Chinese loans? It was only one or the other, but not BOTH.
5. I did not lie about Japan not claiming any of South China Sea Islands. Japan is not a claimant to South China Sea Islands according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_disputes_in_the_South_China_Sea
The Diaoyu Islands are in East China Sea, not South China Sea, which you claimed in your original post. The Diaoyu Islands were part of China before Japanese stole them from us during the war. After Japanese surrender, all their conquered territory should be returned to their owners, including Diaoyu Islands to China, isn't it?
About Philippines case, the court involved was Permanent Court of Arbitration, which is not an agency of United Nations, so why should China adhere to its ruling? The correct UN agency would be ICJ, not this PCA. Furthermore, China made declaration in accordance with the UNCLOS in 2006 not to accept any of its procedures regarding territorial sovereignty. Many countries including the UK, Australia, Italy, France, Canada, and Spain made similar declarations to reject settling claims of sovereignty in this manner.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines_v._China#Optional_exceptions_to_applicability_of_compulsory_procedure
Back to Bhutan again, I thought you said it was bilateral issue between India and China, so why is India helping Bhutan against China? You changed its from being bilateral to multilateral, so exactly which what is it? If it is bilateral between India and China, then India does not claim Donglong as part of its territory, so what rights does it have to send its troops there?
14th Dalai Lama is fugitive from Chinese authorities, because of his separatist actives, while terrorists are the same for India. Both of us have these intimately involved enemies of our own, so how is this hypocrisy? Why India is allowed to protect such 14th DL from China, but China is not allowed to do the same? The best solution to this problem would be mutual exchange of fugitives, when India hands over 14th DL in return for China not vetoing. This is simply how real politics work in the world.
Your Austrialian journal link does not fully show. It only tells me to subscribe.
If you say I am biased, then I can also claim you are biased with your last paragraph consisting of whole string of accusations leveled at China. China is member of UNCLOS and have not broken any of its laws. Debt trap is just your own opinion, and you only highlighted Sri Lanka as your example, not various other projects by China, so who are you to keep on mocking our efforts to improve the world? I can also accuse India of attempting to prevent development to other countries by obstructing road construction, can't I?
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ANUPAM RASTOGI The government only signed agreement maintain status quo, not an agreement agreeing that it is dispute. Building a road doesn't change the status quo, as look at India having military outpost on its sided of the the tri-junction. India can maintain bases in at our borders without changing status quo, but China can't even build roads on our side?
China was member of P5 of UNSC since its founding, and replacing China means that the UN charter needs to be amended. PM Nehru has clarified that India was never offered a seat in UNSC in Sept 28, 1955. PM Nehru has categorically denied any offer, formal or informal, having been received about a seat for India in the UN Security Council. He said: "The composition of the Security Council is prescribed by the UN Charter, according to which certain specified nations have permanent seats. No change or addition can be made to this without an amendment of the Charter."
But Indian propaganda continue perpetuate the myth that Nehru had given up India's seat for China, to make Indians feel wronged for rejecting such an offer, when it is clear that no such offer of a seat was even given to India.
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