Comments by "oolong2" (@oolong2) on "What Does A Ukrainian Victory Look Like?" video.

Asking for a list of demands in the middle of a war is like asking each football team how many points they're willing to take while the game is still going on. It's much easier to ask how many points each team will accept at the end of the game when a victory is clear compared to the beginning when victory is uncertain.
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You're basically asking for things that cannot be negotiated or talked about in public. The reason we have elected representatives is to have people who can be in the weeds with positions that can't be discussed openly. I get the concerns, but issues of war and peace are a totally different animal than talking about healthcare or drug legalization. There is no bullet list of demands for what Russia, Ukraine wants, or "the west" wants. EVERYONE wants as much as they can get and creating some kind of arbitrary list for the US to get behind (and for other countries to criticize or use as leverage) is ENTIRELY UNPRODUCTVE while fighting is still going on. The only purpose to creating such a list would be to make you feel better. I can also guarantee that the average US citizen doesn't care about those details either.
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You're not talking about "politics" , you're talking about negotiating positions and tactics. The "politics" is whether the US should be supporting Ukraine or not. However you're looking for a specific list of strategies, demands, and negotiating positions. It is almost entirely unproductive to have a public discussion of tactics, possible concessions, and negotiating positions in the middle of a war.
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@leonxl Then it makes even less sense to ask us for a list of demands now doesn't it? The only question we have is to support an ally or not. It makes no sense to talk about objectives, borders, and negotiation tactics. When no one is qualified to discuss those things and it's not even up to us to decide.
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@ClownCarCoup 100%
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@recurrenTopology Geez people. THIS IS NOT IRAQ and has absolutely nothing to do with Iraq. The US public was lied into the Iraq war by the neocons in the government and a couple years into the war the people turned against it. Despite the lack of support the neocons spent nearly a decade refusing to pull out while also threatening war with Iran. "Comfort" with supporting war has absolutely nothing to do with the "parameters" that Sam wants to discuss here. People were not "comfortable" with the wars in Vietnam and Iraq beyond the initial lies and propaganda that got us into those conflicts to being with. That is fundamentally NOT the case with Ukraine and talking about specific negotiation positions on a YouTube show (that no one qualified to analyze) is not going to magically solve the situation.
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@recurrenTopology Openly discussing strategic objectives in the middle of a war is entirely counterproductive, especially when the situation changes daily. Telling the world "we'll let Russia have Crimea or Donbas" does not help Ukraine or the situation in any way at all. It only helps Putin. Nor is 99% of the US public even qualified to discuss specific objectives. We are not talking about healthcare, gun regulation, or education. We're talking about military tactics, another county's sovereignty, and cultural and historical nuances that US citizens have absolutely no clue about. Pushing an "open discussion" on objectives that no one is qualified to actually discuss and letting Putin know how far we'll go just because it feels nice sounds completely absurd to me.
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@recurrenTopology As far as #1, saying pre-2014 boarders is not vague at all. It's like telling two sports team to negotiate the final score while the game is going on. There's no point to it. As far as #2, this is what we have been doing already. There's no point in making it official US policy just so Putin can turn it into more propaganda. Obviously if there is a negotiated peace as in #2, we wouldn't be pouring money into a war anymore. There have been numerous peace talks already and we can only listen to the Ukrainians for what is "enough" or "not enough" to fight the war. Again, we are not qualified to debate military strategies or weaponry. That is for Zelenskyy to figure out and thus far they have been doing a pretty good job.
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@recurrenTopology Also the politics aren't complicated. We support Ukraine without direct war with Russia until the American people, the Ukrainians, or the Russians lose the will to continue. We get a stalemate and then borders are drawn based on the situation on the ground. Sanctions mean nothing to a guy who wants to control Ukraine's fossil fuel. Ultimately it is up to the Ukrainians and the Russians to figure out were they stand when they get sick of killing each other. We aren't going to be able to figure that out for them.
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@recurrenTopology I have no optimism for war, lots of people die until they get sick of it. The US doesn't require anymore control over Ukraine than it already has. Again, this isn't a Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan where the population is hostile to US or western influence. I think the idea that the US can wave a magic wand of influence to goad Ukraine and Russia into peace is the more optimistic position. The only influence the US really has is to stop supporting Ukraine and let Russia take what it wants and kill Zelenskyy. Again, I don't know what "discussion" you're looking for that doesn't involve details that people are not qualified to discuss or positions that the US shouldn't disclose. The only political decision is to support Ukraine or not. The details of which should be left up to our elected representatives, the pentagon, State Dept, and others with security clearance who are briefed daily to actually understand the situation.
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@recurrenTopology There isn't anything to "trust" here with the US military industrial complex. Regardless of whether Ukraine is a war or not, they get to send weapons to Ukraine and US interests are intact. This is different than other places that are antagonistic to the US where direct conflict with the US is feeding the machine. The only "assurance" we should be concerned about is direct conflict with Russia. We've always lived in a representative democracy not a direct democracy. So it has nothing to do with being "undemocratic" as is defined by the country we're living in as opposed to something fictional. Elected leaders have always taken broad directives from the people and implemented details. That's how our system works. Just because we don't discuss soybean regulations doesn't make soybean regulations "undemocratic". If every citizen was involved in every decision the government wouldn't function. Elected leaders direct the military and we elect those leaders. TMR talking about it on YouTube doesn't magically change how that works.
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@recurrenTopology Classic straw man. At no point did I ever say we should never question elected leaders. What I did say is that it is completely unproductive to openly discuss objectives, negotiating positions, and borders based on another country's war that people are completely unqualified to talk about. It serves no purpose other than letting Putin know how far the US is willing to go and what we are willing to give up.
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@recurrenTopology The mechanism we have to hold leaders accountable is voting, checks & balances with other branches, and in rare cases impeachment. Not sure what mechanism you're talking about, because I'm pretty sure discussing military strategies and weapons supplies on YouTube isn't one of those things. The problem is you're not even articulating a goal beyond what we already know which is to support Ukraine without getting into a direct conflict with Russia. That has been the goal for months now (decades arguably). Instead we get this vague idea from TMR that they want to know specific objectives, regions, timelines, etc. Information that we couldn't possible have because it isn't our country nor is it our war. And yes, it is obviously extremely beneficial for Putin to have foreknowledge on how far the US is willing to go. Do you really not understand why people/teams/companies/countries are secretive about their strategies and positions?
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@recurrenTopology Again, I don't see how you have a discussion about "how a war ends" without giving away a specific position. Just like you can't discuss how a football game or chess match ends without going into a specific tactic. You're wanting something less "abstract" than the goals we already have and yet you're still not entirely articulating what that means. I think the letter was meaningless and the backlash to the letter was even more meaningless, but generally congressmen having those discussions is how it's supposed to work. Theoretically people are getting in rooms and having those discussions and those with more security clearance are having deeper discussions. However sending a vague letter for political posturing seemed kind of pointless to me, but the backlash to it was even worse. Overall it could have been handled way better by both sides. It seemed like someone got pissed off for some reason behind the scenes. Probably over some ego or procedural crap.
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@recurrenTopology I don't doubt there are elements in the government that wouldn't want to bleed Russia as much as possible and there are certainly elements that profit off of conflict. But I also think it is silly to believe that the US can somehow perfectly balance the amount of support given to Ukraine to get the "perfect amount of conflict". We don't have magic control over this conflict. No one does. We have no idea how much support Russia is getting from other countries. We have also been constantly surprised by how effective Ukraine has been. Zelenskyy has been gathering support he needs to take back areas that Russia took over and that support is not coming from just the US. We can't even figure out how to control the conflicts that we start (Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.) What makes you think that we have complete mastery over someone else's conflict? We need to get out of this mindset that the US controls everything in the world. Despite special interests at the Pentagon, it isn't beneficial for this war to continue. The entire world is paying for it (inflation, gas prices, heating costs, food, etc.)
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@recurrenTopology Just because someone is an expert doesn't mean they can't be wrong. Doctors, immunologists, and various scientists are wrong all the time. It doesn't mean they suddenly don't know what they are talking about. Yet we have a different standard for US intelligence. Even though they were 100% correct on Putin invading Ukraine we just focus on the few things they got wrong over the past 20 years. You still need to be specific... Just saying "we should talk about stuff" is vague. Literally no one is stopping you from discussing anything you want. However it is unreasonable for the entire country to weigh in on every weapon, strategic goal, and region in Ukraine or make the US publicly declare limits and timelines on support and aid. We aren't pursuing any war here. Russia invaded Ukraine and Ukraine is stopping them. I don't know why this has to be clarified. Again... This is NOT Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam or any recent war you can think of that the US purposely started and then proceeded to occupy a country.
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@paulmatters2641 Ukraine is a country full of tens of millions of people who don't want to be invaded.
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@paulmatters2641 It is also a fact that Ukraine is a country full of tens of millions of people who don't want to be invaded, killed, and taken over. So what's your point exactly? Your comment is like watching someone getting t-boned in a car accident and instead of getting help and asking them if they are okay, you complain about their political donations. It's a pretty messed up mindset.
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@rogirek3362 Sigh... 🤦‍♂ It's as if people can't think beyond "the last thing that happened." Ukraine has NOTHING to do with Afghanistan. The US invading a country, putting boots on the ground, occupying it for years, while supporting a fake government that would fail without US boots on the ground, is not the same as providing support to an allied country defending itself. Ukraine is Afghanistan to Russia, do you not get that? Do you not get that Russia is in a quagmire that they started? Christ people, not everything is Iraq and Afghanistan.
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