Comments by "oolong2" (@oolong2) on "Thom Hartmann Program"
channel.
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You had PLENTY of chances to speak. It's because your points were incoherent and nonsensical. Your "examples" of libertarian societies are only examples that ignore the clear cases of either government or communal efforts in those societies. Guess what? Our society and economy today is a million times more complex than it was in 3500BC or even 1800. You people are like teenagers who simply take for granted the roof over their head without having any clue what it took to get it. Then you scream "I don't want any rules!" Humans have by and large ALWAYS lived in tribes and those tribes had structure, rules, and communal efforts that benefited everyone. In fact those societies that you claim are libertarian had far less "freedom" than we do today.
The reason you only mention "ancient" societies is because we know little about how they function, so you're able to project onto them your Utopian fantasy that never really existed. However our modern concepts do not apply at all to these ancient societies governed by family, religion, customs, superstitions, etc.
Governments are simply extensions and a more complex form of the same tribal, clan, and family concepts that humans have had for thousands of years. It is practically built into our DNA. The only reason humans have language, bonds, and tribalism is to reinforce these societal constructs. That have been the very key to our survival.
However the latest incarnation of that tribal union that we call "government" is currently corrupted by private systems and money. We have no check on the power of money, the accumulation of property, or the major influence it has on our governing systems. Throwing what little government checks we have away and insuring that the wealthy have more power and influence is not somehow the answer to our problems.
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Completely disagree.... All my life I've never smoked, did drugs, or drank alcohol really, never even been drunk... However a few months ago I decided to try some edibles while I was in Colorado. First of all since it was my first time I made sure I went to a highly rated place. Being cautious is something most people do when trying ANYTHING for the first time. Secondly my experience at this particular place is that they hand you a menu telling you exactly about the types of Marijuana and their effects, each type of edible, the THC content and the recommended dosages (for an average adult) for each as well as what you should do if it is your first time having an edible... Not only that but you have the time to ask questions from very knowledgeable people before making up your mind.
Furthermore if that wasn't enough there is recommended dosages and serving sizes on the packaging itself....
So the idea that someone is going to grab an edible and not know what they are getting is nonsense. You feel far more informed and in control getting an edible from a legal place where exact dosages, THC content, etc. is spelled out in exact milligrams, than if one of your friends decided to bake a batch of brownies with some stuff he bought off the street one day.
If you're going to ban edibles then you might as well ban liqueur, cocktails, and other sugary drinks. If people can't figure out how much to consume based on all the information laid out for them then they probably shouldn't be trying it in the first place...
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We grow animals the wrong way just like we grow plants the wrong way.... The problem is that we see the downsides of factory farming animals faster than you see the downsides of factory farming plants. However factory farming plants is still depleting the topsoil, relies heavily on oil (pesticides, fertilizers, machinery, etc.), is killing the bee population, as well as birds, amphibians, and small animals. We're destroying the land by doing this. Life isn't meant to be treated like machines where we put a bunch of organisms in rows or grids, it's meant to thrive in an ecosystem not a factory. People that believe that we can magically solve everything by being vegan are misguided by a warped morality, and are simply slowing down the problem not solving it.
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roy romano If "all you know is black culture" then you don't know much at all. If you don't understand the effects of poverty, socio-economics, and the studies on institutional bias then you don't have the tools to solve the problem. I'm not calling you a liar, I'm calling you uninformed. Simply wagging your finger at a community and telling them to stop listening to a type of music (which has been said about rock n roll, hip hop, heavy metal, etc.) or stop playing violent video games, or stop reading certain books has never helped any community in the history of mankind....
Creating economic opportunity, education, fixing systemic racism, reducing inequality, and creating functioning communities where civilians work with and trust the police. THAT is what solves problems.
What you claim to have "seen". I have actually experienced. So it's not like I don't understand what you're saying or where you're coming from. It's just that your perspective is limited and you need to understand a lot more than you currently do.
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@sandray7609 Animals that we eat don't eat the same plants that we eat at least not naturally. All the land and grass that cows would use naturally can offset their carbon footprint, it can actually offset the carbon of the entire farm. Again, it's not like this country wasn't full of millions of large animals that produced methane in the past. It also has numerous other benefits for soil health. It would be more expensive and burgers would no longer be cheap, but it would far better for the planet, our health, and the cows if they were raised in an actual sustainable manner.
A lot of meats aren't "conventional" (insects, deer, many other small animals, etc.). However we've created entire industries around specific kinds of animals and plants since those industries are profitable. Even when we go to plant based foods they largely try to mimic meats (burgers, turkey, bacon, etc.) that we're already accustomed to. Instead of adapting our diets to a natural ecosystem we decided to industrialize everything to suit what we wanted instead. Many Native American societies learned how to coexist with the environment, we haven't.
Keep in mind that you cannot grow most plants that we eat without animals, there is a balance there. The only reason we can is because we rely on fossil fuels in the form of petrochemicals for fertilizers and pesticides to replace what would happen naturally.
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TonyisGaming I knew what you were getting at. I just see that as the same mentality of thinking we can treat all life like machines.... Whenever we've tried to industrialize our food or create fake versions of food we've only succeeded in creating unhealthy products (trans fats, HFCS, soy, pesticides, aspartame, certain GMOs, and a slew of other things).
For me the best solutions lie in permaculture and other forms of sustainable ecosystems (aquaponics, etc.). People forget that plants just don't grow from nothing... They also need food and today that comes from a lot of fossil fuel based fertilizers.
Instead of having all of these mono-crops that rely primarily on fertilizers (fossil fuels), pesticides (also made from fossil fuels), and destroying our top soil we maintain self sustaining ecosystems. Where plants and animals live symbiotically like they are meant to in nature anyway. It might mean changing the types of meats that we eat, but you cannot talk about sustainability without animals.
We also let life/farms thrive in our cities and incorporated into our city planning (roofs, greenspace, etc) rather than keeping it as something separate that gets trucked or shipped in over vast distances wasting even more fossil fuels.
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PrussianEngineer Oh I see, so all other races are "conquered" in your mind so therefore they should all live where today's white people want them to live? I suppose we should reinstitute slavery as well right? You seem to be deluding yourself onto thinking that your skin color gives you some kind of divine right to rule over other races and grant you certain privileges. Such as if your ancestor owned slaves or conquered other minorities on the past then therefore you should be able to do the same today, right?
There are millions of descendants of Genghis Khan scattered around the world. I suppose using your ludicrous logic they should get together and lay claim to all of Asia right?
Sorry, but that's not how things work... I find it really sad that the idea that you share some irrelevant genetic markers with some humans that "conquered" other humans in the past somehow makes you feel good about yourself... As if somehow that achievement is genetically passed on to you. To define yourself that way is sure indicator of having low self esteem.
Again, these migrations were opened everywhere based on the trade, imperialism, and colonialism of the past. Humans have always migrated, our species originated in Africa and spread throughout the globe. Trying to equate this natural migration to the mass killings of the past (holocaust, Rwanda, darfur, slave trade, etc.) so you can try to feel like a victim is utterly pathetic....
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I'm a black man and even though I spent most of my childhood in the suburbs I remember being ridiculed for being black, older kids grabbing me by the collar and picking me up shaking me saying "I hate black people" when I was like 7 or 8. At that time I I also met a girl I liked who became my best friend only to lose her suddenly because her parents were bigots and didn't want her playing with or even talking to me anymore. I remember growing up in highschool and both of my closest friend's parents were basically half bigots. They were "okay" with black people but weren't thrilled that their children was hanging out with one. My best friend's mother was always antagonistic towards me and sometimes would even hang up the phone when I called. I met another girl I really liked, but her mother was bigoted and even called the police on me and my friends when we came by. I don't cry ever, but I remember breaking out into tears that night sitting in the police station explaining that we were just there to visit a friend. Spending years being suspected of being a thief every time you walk into a store wasn't really a big deal. The thing that hurt the most was how bigotry sabotaged my close friendships and relationships. Since then my best friend's mother has seen that I've been the most stable and financially secure friend that her son has ever had. So now she thinks I'm the greatest, but I can easily see how people can grow up hurt jaded and with PTSD from experiencing that at a young age. I've had many black friends who have turned out fine like me (arguably, since I still have issues with close relationships), but I've seen many end up broken and suspicious of everyone. It's especially bad in the workplace, black people have seen other's getting promoted, praised, and highlighted for doing less work. So they're always suspicious of racial bias and many times they don't try as hard because they think "what's the point?". It's kind of like the old experiment with the dogs that were get electrocuted over and over, eventually they just give up and except the pain.
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kathy kelly
1. Which only means you completely don't understand what "regulations" are.... The First & Second National bank of America where private institutions. Just like the Fed.
2. Red Herring fallacy... Nothing of what you said alters the fact that it was the Energy Crises led to the economic problems in the 70s. Nor does it change the policies that led to the biggest boom in our economy inthe 40s, 50s, & 60s. (high upper income taxes, minimum wage, new deal, social security, public works, etc.)
2. You said:
"I don't deny that gov't stimulus makes the economy grow, but it is inevitable mal-investment by definition, since gov't is involuntary and markets are voluntary"
In other words you acknowledge that "facts exist", but choose not to believe them because of your ideology. This is the problem with our country today... Too many people following their "gut" instead of the facts. In the meantime there are REAL people dying of poverty or health issues because people like you choose to blindly follow a feel good narrative from a TV pundit instead of looking at the facts.
4. We were talking about economic inequality. High tax rates on the upper income bracket in the 30's, 40s, 50's, & 60's did in fact decrease inequality. You can see this clearly in the data: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2008_Top1percentUSA.png
I already stated that revenue as a % of GDP has increased steadily since the beginning of this country. Did you forget?
The difference is that the distribution of that tax revenue and wealth changed with policy. Corporate taxes has decreased enormously through many loopholes, the high 70%-90% taxes on the upper income bracket were cut providing an incentive for CEOs to take money out of companies as bonuses instead of leaving it in. So all that wealth suddenly shifted to the upper 1% after Reagan. The lack of tariffs, free trade laws, union busting, and not enforcing antitrust laws since the 80s also killed the middle class.
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kathy kelly
1. Clearly you have no idea how the Fed works, nor the history. Ummm.... the IRS has nothing to do with the Fed.... The Fed is a private institution. It was created by bankers for banks in a private meeting on Jekyll Island. Why do you think the "audit the Fed" bill proposed by Alan Grayson & Ron Paul in 2010 had to be passed for the government to even know what the Fed was doing? Because the Government has very little control over what the Fed does and little knowledge about it.
Because you don't understanding these nuances means you have no clue what the "cartel" is or where the real power lies.... Which is exactly how people become gullible tools.
2. I've already explained this over and over.... The reason the middle class and inequality declined starting in the 80s was because of. Tax cuts on the upper income tax brackets, free trade policies, union busting, not enforcing Antitrust laws, deregulation of the financial sector. All of these policy changes started with Reagan and continued till the crash.
I'm sorry, but If your answer is to simply "ignore data" then you are part of the problem and there is no point.
Whatever corruption you see in government all stems from the "profit motive". That same motivation is behind the cartels in Mexico, created several central banks, and kept slavery in place for decades when it became illegal in all other western countries.
That motivation is also funding the propaganda telling you that somehow if the people who get rich by taking advantage of others and the system were "left alone" that somehow things would magically work itself out. Of course the data doesn't support this at all, in any country, or at any time. Yet somehow this makes sense to you to the point where you will abandon all facts and reason because you've been sold on this over simplistic narrative of a "free market" which is nothing more than a pure fantasy.
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kathy kelly I seriously don't know how you people that listen to nothing but propaganda and stupid theories to support an even dumber ideology even live with yourselves....
http://www.gunfaq.org/2013/04/aurora-and-the-gun-free-zone-theory/
"It’s commonly asserted that James Holmes choose the only posted “gun free” theater in a 20-mile radius, bypassing targets both closer and larger.
In reality, Holmes bypassed the Cinema Latino de Aurora, a small complex dedicated to serving the area’s Hispanic audience. It shows Spanish movies, and English movies with subtitles. Holmes, needless to say, was not Hispanic.
Holmes also ignored the Harkins, the largest theater in the area, due to the lack of privacy it would have provided. The Harkins is located in the middle of an open-air mall, with restaurants, shops, and bars to all sides.
Which leaves the Cinemark Century 16, 3.6 miles away, and the closest “megaplex” to his apartment. It was known. it was secluded. It was perfect."
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3. Sorry, smartphones weren't "free market". The gov't invested *heavily* in computers, microprocessors, & satellites (NASA, military, research grants, etc.). This led to "silicon valley", satellite communications, GPS, etc.
Many scientific advances in (technology, medicine, cures for diseases, etc.) all come from gov't investment in research.
The gov't doesn't spend billions advertising. People foolishly believe everything comes from the marketing slogans they are brainwashed by every day.
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1. Try asking a woman, a black person, or Asian about "freedom" in the market 100 years ago.
Again, your beliefs are based on a fantasy... Yes technically white males (non-catholic, Irish, or Italian) coming from wealthy families had more "freedom", THAT'S IT.
2. No the difference is that democratic institutions are accountable to people & private institutions are only accountable to profit regardless of how it is gained (slavery, child labor, pollution, additives, war profiteering, etc.).
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@MRELTUCO2
Only if you're interested in making strawman arguments.
Are drivers licenses, drinking and driving laws, licenses to practice medicine, licenses to practice law, litering laws, 40 hour work week, weekends, building codes, restaurant health inspections, meat/poultry regulation, all supporting security over freedom?
No... it's called having reasonable regulations so that average americans are protected from those who abuse their freedoms at the expense of others.
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1. Drugs aren't "used in crimes", they are consumed. Again, there's a reason why after the NFA fully automatics stopped being used in crimes.
2. Most "liberals" are for decriminalizing pot, gay marriage, abortion rights, preserving social security, immigration reform, universal health care, ending wars, drone strikes, and indefinite detention PRECISLY because they can understand the problems of others.
So in other words stop using junk science to support bullshit ideas about people.
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Many people died in the 20th century from companies profiting on new technology and pretending it is safe. Lead poisoning (lead gasoline, lead paint, etc), radiation poisoning (x-rays, radiated paint, etc.), hydrogenated fats, etc.
People died horrible deaths under the guise of making things "better", "more efficient", "healthier", etc.
It would be foolish to not be concerned about having something genetically altered with unknown longterm "side effects" end up in the diet of millions.
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@slayerfan209 Again, do you think the places with armed insurrections and every day terrorist bombings are somehow better off? Seriously, WTF kind of backwards thinking is that? I suggest you actually take a good look at the world before you start whining about how bad you have it here, because warlords, armed militias, and watching your family die in front if you is not better than whatever imagined rights you think are being taken away from you.
If you want to fix the problems in government, then organize, get money out of politics, and learn to see through the BS coming from politicians, pundits, and media. Thinking you can shoot your way to a better society is moronic.
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Like "progressives" today, early progressives fought against corruption & waste, "robber barons", advocated gov't control by average citizens, education, land/wildlife conservation (Grand Canyon, Yosemite, etc.), rights of women, workers, minorities (abolitionists), etc.
One thing changed is the stance on "prohibition", early progressives favored prohibition because of the detrimental effects of "saloons" on women & the poor.
Now progressives are against prohibition of alcohol,marijuana, etc.
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@megagagnon1
Sorry you'd have to be willfully ignorant to not recognize CA's contribution to the world. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Silcon Vally, Google, YouTube, Twitter, the .Com boom, Skateboarding, Snowboarding, Cuisine, Hollywood, etc. Innovations & industries that changed HISTORY.
All with decades of large government programs, publicly funded universities & high tax rates.
Libertarians fantasize on how they *think* the world works, but it's simplistic ideology with no basis in reality.
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My guess is that most people get their "news" from opinion sources. You have right wing outlets who, for the most part, will just line up behind any right-wing leader. Then you have left wing media who will try and be "principled" and cover Democratic politicians fairly and because of that coverage will always be unbalanced. The right wing also lined up behind the Bush administration for years with barely any criticism of the war, torture, indefinite detention, Abu Gharibe, Gitmo, patriot-act, warrantless wiretapping, etc. Then when Obama got into office, he was constantly attacked by both the right and the left.
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@mikelouis9389 It's a coincidence only because our brains tend to create meaningless correlations. Authoritarians can be found everywhere. Russia (Stalin, Putin, etc.), China (Mao, etc), North Korea, Roberto Duterte, Saudi Arabia, etc. It doesn't really matter if they use nationality, skin tone, religion, or anything else as the basis of their ideology and cruelty.
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