Comments by "" (@walterkronkitesleftshoe6684) on "War Stories"
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I thought I'd create a simple "visual aid" in order to assist people learning about the history of the battle of Britain. There is much ongoing debate about the nationalities and proportions of RAF fighter pilots who took part in the battle, with occasionally a furtive aspect which attempts to portray the battle as a victory of "mostly Foreign pilots". Below is an accurate graphical representation of the proportion of pilot nationalities serving within RAF Fighter Command during the summer of 1940.
Each flag is roughly equivalent to 30 pilots, The numbers after each nation are the actual number of pilots from that country, and the approximate percentage of RAF Fighter Command's establishment in the summer of 1940 that they represented.
π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§ UK (2342) (80%)
π΅π±π΅π±π΅π±π΅π±π΅π± Poland (145) (5%)
π³πΏπ³πΏπ³πΏπ³πΏ New Zealand (127) (4%)
π¨π¦π¨π¦π¨π¦π¨π¦ Canada (112) (4%) (1940 flag emoji not available)
π¨πΏπ¨πΏπ¨πΏ Czechoslovakia (88) (3%)
π¦πΊ Australia (32) (1%)
π§πͺ Belgium (28) (1%)
πΏπ¦ S. Africa (25) (1%) (1940 flag emoji not available)
πΊπ³ Other nations (France (13), R o Ireland (10), USA (9), Rhodesia (3), Newfoundland (1), Jamaica (1), Barbados (1)) (1%)
(And just to preempt any wandering idiot lefty "Identity warriors" from protesting about "The lack of credit given to the black pilots who fought in the battle of Britain"... the pilots from South Africa, Rhodesia & the Caribbean were all of white descent).
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Who has ever said the battle of Britain was fought entirely by British pilots?
It was fought MOSTLY by British pilots with minority support from the commonwealth and some refugee European & other foreign pilots.
I thought I'd create a simple "visual aid" in order to assist people learning about the history of the battle of Britain. There is much ongoing debate about the nationalities and proportions of RAF fighter pilots who took part in the battle, with occasionally a furtive aspect which attempts to portray the battle as a victory of "mostly Foreign pilots". Below is an accurate graphical representation of the proportion of pilot nationalities serving within RAF Fighter Command during the summer of 1940.
Each flag is roughly equivalent to 30 pilots, The numbers after each nation are the actual number of fighter pilots/aircrew from that country, and the approximate percentage of RAF Fighter Command's establishment in the summer of 1940 that they represented.
π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§ UK (2342) (80%)
π΅π±π΅π±π΅π±π΅π±π΅π± Poland (145) (5%)
π³πΏπ³πΏπ³πΏπ³πΏ New Zealand (127) (4%)
π¨π¦π¨π¦π¨π¦π¨π¦ Canada (112) (4%) (1940 flag emoji not available)
π¨πΏπ¨πΏπ¨πΏ Czechoslovakia (88) (3%)
π¦πΊ Australia (32) (1%)
π§πͺ Belgium (28) (1%)
πΏπ¦ S. Africa (25) (1%) (1940 flag emoji not available)
πΊπ³ Other nations (France (13), R o Ireland (10), USA (9), Rhodesia (3), Newfoundland (1), Jamaica (1), Barbados (1)) (1%)
(And just to preempt any wandering idiot lefty "Identity warriors" from protesting about "The lack of credit given to the black pilots who fought in the battle of Britain"... the pilots from South Africa, Rhodesia & the Caribbean were all of white descent).
It is however COMPLETELY true to say that Britain as a country DID stand alone against German aggression from July 1940 to April 1941, unless that is you can provide us with the details of the luftwaffe air assaults on Canberra, Ottawa, Delhi and Wellington? Or how the Wehrmacht stood poised to launch its invasion of the Indian sub continent or Canada? Or how the Kriegsmarine attempted to strangle "the British Empire" out of the war by enforcing a u-boat blockade of Australia and New Zealand?
Oh news just coming in...... NONE OF THOSE THINGS HAPPENED because the ONLY nation facing ALL of those threats between July 1940 and April 1941 was GREAT BRITAIN ALONE.
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Here's some of Bismarck's "uber" design choices....
1. Her incremental armour scheme and low horizontal "turtleback". Incremental armour (several layers of thinner armour above a "main armour" layer) the thinner armour was thick enough to activate shell fuses, but not thick enough to prevent the penetratation of even medium calibre shells, and her low turtleback while making her difficult to sink, saw all of her weapons and communications systems disabled within 30 minutes of her final battle. Most other battleship construction of the 1930s used the concept of an "all or nothing" armour scheme, where only the vital ship systems were protected, the rest of the superstructure being standard marine plating, which allowed the passage of a shell without activating its fuse. Witness HMS Prince of Wales at Denmark Strait, hit by multiple large calibre shells, none of which detonated, and all but two of which passed through the ship with only minimal damage.
2.Twin gunned main turrets, an outdated design choice which meant more turrets and their accompanying magazines required a greater weight of armour to protect them all, when more modern, more weight efficient thinking decreed triple and quadruple gunned turrets, thereby producing a greater weight of fire, from a smaller number of turrets & magazines with a much reduced weight of armour to protect them all.
3. Duplicated Secondary / anti-aircraft weapon systems that wasted a lot of weight for no added benefit, as opposed to the dual purpose secondary armament then becoming more common and more weight efficient in contemporary naval construction.
4. Triple propeller propulsion design which intrinsically reduced the amount of "off centre" propulsive power that could be used for steering with the engines by 33%, should she suffer the slim possibility of damage to her rudders (Well who knows? It might happen!!!). Look at the propulsion systems of many other major units, the majority have either 2 or 4 shafts powering them, both of which enable 100% of engine power off centre to increase the turning potential of the engines.
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I thought I'd create a simple "visual aid" in order to assist people learning about the history of the battle of Britain. There is much ongoing debate about the nationalities and proportions of RAF fighter pilots who took part in the battle, with occasionally a furtive aspect which attempts to portray the battle as a victory of "mostly foreign pilots". Below is a graphical representation of the proportion of pilot nationalities serving within RAF Fighter Command during the summer of 1940.
Each flag is roughly equivalent to 30 pilots, The numbers after each nation are the ACTUAL number of aircrew from that country, and the approximate percentage of RAF Fighter Command's establishment in the summer of 1940 that they represented.
The figures are taken from the RAF records of the awards of the highly coveted "Battle of Britain clasp" to the British 1939-45 Campaign Star. Which was SCRUPULOUSLY only awarded to RAF & Fleet Air Arm aircrew who flew at least one active sortie in the UK in any RAF fighter aircraft between 10th July 1940 and 31st Oct 1940.
π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§ UK (2342) (80%)
π΅π±π΅π±π΅π±π΅π±π΅π± Poland (145) (5%)
π³πΏπ³πΏπ³πΏπ³πΏ New Zealand (127) (4%)
π¨π¦π¨π¦π¨π¦π¨π¦ Canada (112) (4%) (1940 flag emoji not available)
π¨πΏπ¨πΏπ¨πΏ Czechoslovakia (88) (3%)
π¦πΊ Australia (32) (1%)
π§πͺ Belgium (28) (1%)
πΏπ¦ S. Africa (25) (1%) (1940 flag emoji not available)
πΊπ³ Other nations (France (13), R o Ireland (10), USA (9), Rhodesia (3), Newfoundland (1), Jamaica (1), Barbados (1)) (1%)
(And just to preempt any wandering idiot lefty "Identity warriors" from protesting about "The lack of credit given to the black pilots who fought in the battle of Britain"... the pilots from South Africa, Rhodesia & the Caribbean were all of white descent).
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I thought I'd create a simple "visual aid" in order to assist people learning about the history of the battle of Britain. There is much ongoing debate about the nationalities and proportions of RAF fighter pilots who took part in the battle, with occasionally a furtive aspect which attempts to portray the battle as a victory of "mostly Foreign pilots". Below is an accurate graphical representation of the proportion of pilot nationalities serving within RAF Fighter Command during the summer of 1940.
Each flag is roughly equivalent to 30 pilots, The numbers after each nation are the actual number of pilots from that country, and the approximate percentage of RAF Fighter Command's establishment in the summer of 1940 that they represented.
π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§ UK (2342) (80%)
π΅π±π΅π±π΅π±π΅π±π΅π± Poland (145) (5%)
π³πΏπ³πΏπ³πΏπ³πΏ New Zealand (127) (4%)
π¨π¦π¨π¦π¨π¦π¨π¦ Canada (112) (4%) (1940 flag emoji not available)
π¨πΏπ¨πΏπ¨πΏ Czechoslovakia (88) (3%)
π¦πΊ Australia (32) (1%)
π§πͺ Belgium (28) (1%)
πΏπ¦ S. Africa (25) (1%) (1940 flag emoji not available)
πΊπ³ Other nations (France (13), R o Ireland (10), USA (9), Rhodesia (3), Newfoundland (1), Jamaica (1), Barbados (1)) (1%)
(And just to preempt any wandering idiot lefty "Identity warriors" from protesting about "The lack of credit given to the black pilots who fought in the battle of Britain"... the pilots from South Africa, Rhodesia & the Caribbean were all of white descent).
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More of the same uninformed nonsense. Here's some more of the "history that is never talked about".
1. Britain still thanks Poland at every remembrance day parade across the country to this day. We appreciate the 58.5 confirmed kills that 303 Sqd contributed to the 2900 luftwaffe aircraft destroyed during the Battle of Britain, incl the 17 scored by the Czechoslovakian ace Josef FrantiΕ‘ek who flew with 303 Sqd. Also take note that 303 sqd were not "all Polish pilots", as well as Josef FrantiΕ‘ek I've already mentioned, the squadron commander and most of the flight commanders were British during the battle of Britain.
2. With regard to the 1946 Victory parade when it came to Britain handing out the national invites to all of the countries that had fought on the side of the Allies in WW2, The British Labour government of Clement Attlee handed the Polish invitation to the Warsaw based Polish provisional government of national unity (which was after all the official government of Poland, as recognised by the United Nations). The now effectively powerless & stateless nationalist Polish government in exile based in London took great offence at their sidelining in this matter, and raised a torrent of indignation that was backed by many British MPs and ordinary people. A few days before the parade was due to take place a belated invitation was sent both to the Polish Govt in Exile in London as well as directly to various Polish generals who had fought with the allies, ALL of who felt so disgusted with the perceived disrespect shown by the INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY (I.E being made to play "second fiddle" to the official Warsaw Polish government) that they CHOSE not to attend the parade. And the final ignomy? The Soviet backed Warsaw government neither acknowledged the British invite, or attended the parade either.
Britain sacrificed 450000 of her citizens in a war started to aid Poland which, due to her quick conquest, evolved into a meatgrinder of a war to topple her oppressors. At war's end it was the treachery of Britain's "enemy's enemy" (Josef Stalin) that strangled any possibility of a postwar democratic Poland. The western allies were reluctant to start WW3 in a central Europe already bled white by 6 years of murderous tyranny and warfare, a WW3 entailing probably millions more deaths that would have been necessary to remove the 12.4 million strong red army from the countries of Eastern Europe.
Oops, Bi Ling !!! You've forgotten to tell us how YOU would have removed the 12.4 million strong red army from central & Eastern Europe?
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Β @brianjones5379Β I thought I'd create a simple "visual aid" in order to assist people learning about the history of the battle of Britain. There is much ongoing debate about the nationalities and proportions of RAF fighter pilots who took part in the battle, with occasionally a furtive aspect which attempts to portray the battle as a victory of "mostly foreign pilots". Below is a graphical representation of the proportion of pilot nationalities serving within RAF Fighter Command during the summer of 1940.
Each flag is roughly equivalent to 30 pilots, The numbers after each nation are the ACTUAL number of aircrew from that country, and the approximate percentage of RAF Fighter Command's establishment in the summer of 1940 that they represented.
The figures are taken from the RAF records of the awards of the highly coveted "Battle of Britain clasp" to the British 1939-45 Campaign Star, which was SCRUPULOUSLY only awarded to RAF & Fleet Air Arm aircrew who flew at least one active sortie in the UK in any RAF or Fleet Air Arm fighter aircraft between 10th July 1940 and 31st Oct 1940.
π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§ UK (2342) (80%)
π΅π±π΅π±π΅π±π΅π±π΅π± Poland (145) (5%)
π³πΏπ³πΏπ³πΏπ³πΏ New Zealand (127) (4%)
π¨π¦π¨π¦π¨π¦π¨π¦ Canada (112) (4%) (1940 flag emoji not available)
π¨πΏπ¨πΏπ¨πΏ Czechoslovakia (88) (3%)
π¦πΊ Australia (32) (1%)
π§πͺ Belgium (28) (1%)
πΏπ¦ S. Africa (25) (1%) (1940 flag emoji not available)
πΊπ³ Other nations (France (13), R o Ireland (10), USA (9), Rhodesia (3), Newfoundland (1), Jamaica (1), Barbados (1)) (1%)
(And just to preempt any wandering idiot lefty "Identity warriors" from protesting about "The lack of credit given to the black pilots who fought in the battle of Britain"... the pilots from South Africa, Rhodesia & the Caribbean were all of white descent).
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I thought I'd create a simple "visual aid" in order to assist people learning about the history of the battle of Britain. There is much ongoing debate about the nationalities and proportions of RAF fighter pilots who took part in the battle, with occasionally a furtive aspect which attempts to portray the battle as a victory of "mostly foreign pilots". Below is a graphical representation of the proportion of pilot nationalities serving within RAF Fighter Command during the summer of 1940.
Each flag is roughly equivalent to 30 pilots, The numbers after each nation are the ACTUAL number of aircrew from that country, and the approximate percentage of RAF Fighter Command's establishment in the summer of 1940 that they represented.
The figures are taken from the RAF records of the awards of the highly coveted "Battle of Britain clasp" to the British 1939-45 Campaign Star. Which was SCRUPULOUSLY only awarded to RAF & Fleet Air Arm aircrew who flew at least one active sortie in the UK in any RAF fighter aircraft between 10th July 1940 and 31st Oct 1940.
π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§ UK (2342) (80%)
π΅π±π΅π±π΅π±π΅π±π΅π± Poland (145) (5%)
π³πΏπ³πΏπ³πΏπ³πΏ New Zealand (127) (4%)
π¨π¦π¨π¦π¨π¦π¨π¦ Canada (112) (4%) (1940 flag emoji not available)
π¨πΏπ¨πΏπ¨πΏ Czechoslovakia (88) (3%)
π¦πΊ Australia (32) (1%)
π§πͺ Belgium (28) (1%)
πΏπ¦ S. Africa (25) (1%) (1940 flag emoji not available)
πΊπ³ Other nations (France (13), R o Ireland (10), USA (9), Rhodesia (3), Newfoundland (1), Jamaica (1), Barbados (1)) (1%)
(And just to preempt any wandering idiot lefty "Identity warriors" from protesting about "The lack of credit given to the black pilots who fought in the battle of Britain"... the pilots from South Africa, Rhodesia & the Caribbean were all of white descent).
But keep in mind that at this early stage of the war the UK was defended by +95% British troops.
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Β @BlindPidePiperΒ Without question the US was the MAJOR player on land in Europe, then again thats a result of national populations, 149 million US citizens in 1939 with the UK having 47 million at the same time, of course thats without taking the "Empire troops" into account, but in as much the same way as the US was contesting the pacific, the British empire was also providing the majority forces is the Mediterranean, East Africa, middle east, India and Burma, and once again it should be remembered that D-day would never have been able to take place without the majority UK/Canadian naval aspect of the amphibious landings in addition to the 3 landing beaches that they covered. So its entirely understandable that the "average Joe" in the UK looking at history doesn't immediately consider the Pacific war / China, the same as the average American doesn't immediately think of the middle east, India and Burma, and more often than not considers "D-day" as a purely American effort.
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Β @charlescoleman4017Β Your grasp of English comprehension is top flight Charles, commenters of less rigorous logic and comprehension (as well as the many programmed lefty "Brit haters") either cannot or choose not to understand. One category deserves our help, the other, our contempt.
I have NEVER diminished the contribution of other nationalities (indeed even though I am obviously a Brit I had a Canadian 1st cousin from Golden, BC who as a tank driver in the 28th Canadian armd regt was killed during "Operation Totalise" on 8th August 1944) and I am aware of the massive contribution towards the security of the UK's "Atlantic lifeline" that the Royal Canadian Navy provided together with the RCAF and its part in the air war and the BCATP as well as Canada's unending supply of resources, and will argue till I'm blue in the face in defence of their honour and service they provided, but I REFUSE to see the stoicism and resolve of the British general public be diminished or mocked without challenge.
Likewise the Poles, Aussies, Kiwis, Indians, Czechs and Free forces etc, EACH deserve the honour, recognition and credit for their own war effort & war dead... but I won't see it done by misrepresenting what the British public went through, including the >450,000 British citizens whose lives were lost in opposition to fascism & Japanese militarism... NOT that that was your purpose.... but for PLENTY of others it is.
All the best Charles.
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If you'd like an individual example of the esteem with which HMS Hood was held by other nations, look no further than the account of Baron Burkhard von Mullenheim-Rechberg, the senior ranking survivor of Bismarck, and her 4th gunnery officer, here's an excerpt of his account of the start of the battle of Denmark Strait.
"The British ships were turning slightly to port, the lead ship showing an extremely long forecastle and two heavy twin turrets. On the telephone I heard Albrecht shout, "The HOOD...... it's the HOOD!" (his capitalisation), It was an unforgettable moment. There she was, the famous warship, once the largest in the world, that had been the "terror" of so many of our war games."
Later he made these remarks following Hood's demise....
"At first the Hood was nowhere to be seen: in her place was a colossal pillar of black smoke reaching into the sky. Gradually at the foot of the pillar, I made out the bow of the battle cruiser projecting upwards at an angle, a sure sign that she had broken in two. Then I saw something I could hardly believe: A flash of orange coming from her forward guns! Although her fighting days had ended, the Hood was firing a last salvo. I felt a great respect for those men over there"
Sounds as if the Kriegsmarine and her gunnery experts were more impressed by HMS Hood than you appear to be.
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Using the rationale of your "All the colonies and their RAW MATERIALS,SLAVE SOLDIERS Specially From INDIA Had Make sure that Britain was not alone against Germany" argument actually means that Britain survived the onslaught of the nazis supported by Italy, the USSR, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Romania, Denmark, Norway, the Nertherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg and France. Thank you for highlighting the sheer extent of Britain's victory against the assembled economies of all those nations.
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Β @bobsakamanos4469Β They were good quality pilots, but that quality was not because of their Polish training regime, or some form of superior Polish spacial awareness, but simply due to the fact that all the mediocre, poor & less resourceful Polish pilots had already been "filtered out" of the Polish aircrew cadre by 2 previous campaigns and by having had to make their way right across Europe living on their wits. The Polish pilots flying in the battle of Britain were the creme of the prewar PAF and not a random selection, which in Poland had been hammered out of existence within days of the start of the campaign.
Set against that "filtration process" was the fact that they had less experience in British fighter aircraft, and the world beating British air defence system, so that while they were more able than novice British pilots then replacing battle losses, they were completely average when compared to experienced pilots of other nations.... as is testified to by the highest kill tallies achieved during the battle.
Top RAF Fighter Command "kill tallies" during the battle of Britain.
Flt Lt Eric Stanley Lock (English) - 21Β½ confirmed kills (in Spitfires)
Sgt James Harry Lacey (English) - 18 confirmed kills. (In Hurricanes)
Flt Lt Archie Ashmore McKellar (Scottish) - 17Β½ confirmed kills. (In spitfires)
Sgt Josef FrantiΕ‘ek (Czechoslovakian) - 17 confirmed kills. (In Hurricanes)
Pilot Off Colin Falkland Gray (New Zealand) - 15Β½ confirmed kills. (In Spitfires)
Fl Off Brian Carbury (New Zealand) - 15Β½ confirmed kills (In Spitifres)
Flt Lt Witold Urbanowicz (Poland) - 15 confirmed kills. (In Hurricanes)
I assume you will also roll out the " 303 was the highest scoring squadron during the battle" statement, but while you do that you will need to look into that fact more deeply.
Polish "KoΕciuszko" 303 Sqd total kill tally - 58.5 confirmed kills (NOT the 127 CLAIMED kills widely quoted.)
Which included the confirmed kills of the following pilots.
Squadron commander, Sqd Ldr Ronald Gustave Kellett (British) - 5 confirmed kills
"A" Flight commander, Fl Lt John Alexander Kent (Canadian) - 6 confirmed kills
"B" Flight commander, Fl Lt Athol Stanhope Forbes (British) - 7 confirmed kills.
Sgt pilot Josef FrantiΕ‘ek (Czechoslovakian) - 17 confirmed Kills.
The only pilots being disparaged in all of this are the British pilots, who you appear to be trying to portray as somehow generally less able than other pilots.
P.S Where are you getting this "very poor Hurricane kill ratio" nonsense from?
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Β @GM-fh5jpΒ They did indeed find themselves master of the eastern Indian ocean for the short time they were there, but as I said they almost immediately withdrew due to the perimeter of sea they were trying to control being beyond their means. The RN on the other hand kept control of the Arctic, North Atlantic (with the RCN), South Atlantic, Mediterranean, Indian, and eventually projected into the Pacific, on outside lines of comms & supply. The Japanese controlled half the pacific on internal lines of comms and suppply, and found that it couldn't expand further.
(P.S I know about the RN losses, my own father was a survivor of HMS Dorsetshire, sunk on April 5th south of India, he also took part in the rescues of the Bismarck survivors a year earlier).
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Β @asmodeus0454Β Was it just the British who built empires lefty? While completely ignoring the Roman, Persian, Mongol, Spanish, Dutch, German, French, Italian, Mayan, Incan, Malian, Khmer and countless other avaricious regimes throughout human civilisation.
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Please provide us with the details of the luftwaffe air assaults on Canberra, Ottawa, Delhi and Wellington? Or how the Wehrmacht stood poised to launch its invasion of the Indian sub continent? Or how the Kriegsmarine attempted to strangle "the British Empire" out of the war by enforcing a u-boat blockade of Australia and New Zealand?
Oh news just coming in...... NONE OF THOSE THINGS HAPPENED because the ONLY nation subjected to ALL of those threats by the nazis between July 1940 and April 1941 was GREAT BRITAIN ALONE.
I thought I'd create a simple "visual aid" in order to assist people learning about the history of the battle of Britain. There is much ongoing debate about the nationalities and proportions of RAF fighter pilots who took part in the battle, with a furtive aspect which attempts to portray the battle as a victory of "mostly Foreign pilots". Below is an accurate graphical representation of the proportion of pilot nationalities serving within RAF Fighter Command during the summer of 1940.
Each flag is roughly equivalent to 30 pilots, The numbers after each nation are the actual number of pilots from that country, and the approximate percentage of RAF Fighter Command's establishment in the summer of 1940 that they represented.
π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§π¬π§ UK (2342) (80%)
π΅π±π΅π±π΅π±π΅π±π΅π± Poland (145) (5%)
π³πΏπ³πΏπ³πΏπ³πΏ New Zealand (127) (4%)
π¨π¦π¨π¦π¨π¦π¨π¦ Canada (112) (4%) (1940 flag emoji not available)
π¨πΏπ¨πΏπ¨πΏ Czechoslovakia (88) (3%)
π¦πΊ Australia (32) (1%)
π§πͺ Belgium (28) (1%)
πΏπ¦ S. Africa (25) (1%) (1940 flag emoji not available)
πΊπ³ Other nations (France (13), R o Ireland (10), USA (9), Rhodesia (3), Newfoundland (1), Jamaica (1), Barbados (1)) (1%)
By the time of the expected invasion in Sept 1940 the British army was fielding
2 British Armoured divisions
2 British Armoured tank brigades
15 British infantry divisions (full strength)
7 British infantry divisions (under strength).
7 British infantry Brigades
2 British motor machine gun Brigades
1 Canadian infantry division (full strength)
2 Australian infantry brigades (BOTH under strength)
1 NZ infantry division (actually an understrength infantry Brigade but with an attached British motor machine gun brigade)
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Β @jackreacher5667Β "Most aircraft carriers,(British and American) even the Iowa class ships had Teak decks" (You are aware the "Iowas" were NOT carriers, aren't you?)
WRONG. Most British WW2 aircraft carriers such as the "Illustrious", "Indomitable" & "Inplacable" classes did NOT have wooden decks, instead having 3in thick armour acting as horizontal protection and also as the actual flight deck, as well as a further 2in thick armoured deck protecting the hangars.
US "Yorktown" carriers had flightdecks of teak planking over standard three quarter inch plating. The "Essex" class had in parts 1.5in plating under the teak planking. It wasn't until after WW2 that the US "Midway" class carriers had deck armour comparable with RN carriers.
If you'd like the prime examples of the structural differences between RN and USN aircraft carriers, read about the resultant damage caused by a single bomb on USS Princeton ("Independence" class carrier) and kamikaze attacks against USS Bunker Hill (an Essex class carrier), HMS Illustrious, HMS Indomitable & HMS Indefatigable.
On USS Bunker Hill a single kamikaze on her deck wrecked her, killing over 400 crew and knocking her out of action for the rest of the war, as it took 6 months of repairs to make her operational again.
HMS Illustrious survived a kamikaze hit by a Japanese bomber as well as the detonation of its 1000kg bomb adjacent to her hull, Indomitable & Indefatigable on the other hand were both hit by kamikazes, and in each case the wreckage of the Japanese aircraft was "brushed overboard", and quick drying cement was used to fill in the resultant dent on their flight decks, meaning that both were flying aircraft off within 90 minutes of the attacks, in each case the number of crew lost was in the order of low 10s.
"A little bit of research can often be a wonderful thing." indeed, you should try it sometime.
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With regard to the OPs contention that they were "all posh kids from the wealthy families", while the "poshies" were over-represented without a doubt in the form of RAF "career" pilots heavily bolstered by the RAF equivalent of the Army's "territorials" these "auxiliary squadrons" were made up of, by definition, rich, civilian aviation enthusiasts who trained part time pre-war.
BUT there was the 3rd way of becoming an RAF pilot. The "RAF volunteer reserve" was a widespread UK Government program introduced in 1936 that as its name suggests was open to volunteers, usually from RAF "other ranks" but also civilians who showed the necessary aptitude for flight training and were trained at UK government expense. Through this program, PLENTY of "ordinary blokes" such as Ray Holmes, Charlton Haw and Maurice Leng, all took part in the battle, usually as "NCO pilots", the vast majority of RAFVR came from "ordinary" backgrounds.
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Below I've "copy and pasted" the preamble to Hitler's "Fuhrerbefehl No. 16" (Fuhrer Directive 16) issued from the Reichchancellery on 16th July 1940 to the German armed forces high command (OKW).
The directive was transmitted in what the Germans believed was an unbreakable code, showing that it was NOT for the digest of the British and simply designed to initmidate them into coming to the surrender table, but was a true indication of Hitler's intent.
"The Fuhrer And Supreme Commander Of The Armed Forces.
The Fuhrer's Headquarters. 16th July, 1940. 7 copies
Directive No. 16 -- On Preparations For A Landing Operation Against England
Since England, in spite of her hopeless military situation, shows no signs of being ready to come to an understanding, I have decided to prepare a landing operation against England, and, if necessary, to carry it out.
The aim of this operation will be to eliminate the English homeland as a base for the prosecution of the war against Germany and, if necessary, to occupy it completely."
But as we both know the first phase of the operation, that being the battle of Britain, was smashed, meaning the rest of the plan was academic. The operation had been stopped in its first phase. What would be described in common parlance as "A resounding British victory".
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Β @MarkHarrison733Β No it didn't Mark, as you know full well, RAF Blenheims and Wellingtons attacked German naval units in the estuary of the river Weser, the Jade Bight and the Schillig roads off the north coast of Germany, as they were even forbidden from attacking German naval units while they were berthed in port in case of hitting innocent Germans, and the RAF bombers also did it in broad daylight so as to avoid the chance of hitting neutral shipping in the area. NO civilians were killed or injured in these attacks.
Unlike when the Germans bombed Scapa Flow on 16th March 1940 and murdered the FIRST innocent civilian, either British OR German, who was a Mr James Isbister, killed by luftwaffe bombs meant for the RN anchorage at Scapa Flow. Mr Isbister was a council road mender whose cottage at Bridge of Waithe near Stenness was hit by German bombs.
But aside from the British the Germans had uttely NO worries about murdering innocent Polish, Norwegian, Dutch, Belgian or French civilians prior to their all out assault on British cities in Sept 1940.
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Early Mk I Hurricanes (and very early Spitfires) were fitted prewar with a "Watts" wooden 2 bladed fixed pitch propeller (Simply a laminated, carved solid wooden propeller). These were replaced squadron by squadron from May 1939 by the De Havilland variable pitch three blade propeller with cast metal blades, these variable pitch propellers had only two settings "fine" and "coarse" which was set manually by the pilot and improved performance during take off and at high altitude, but if the wrong pitch was selected by the pilot at the wrong time then poor performance, and most probably engine damage was the result). These were quickly superceded from Dec 1939 onwards by the "Rotol" Constant Speed propellers where the propeller blades (made of a composite wood/metal constuction trademarked as "Jablo") were infinitely variable and controlled automatically.
The 3 types of propellers above can be thought of in a similar way to gears. The 2 bladed wooden fixed pitch was rather like an old bike with only one gear.... a single inflexible gear set to give the "worst of both worlds" for both indifferent top speed and sluggish acceleration. The 2 pitch De Havilland was like a car with 2 manual gears, low and high. The Rotol constant speed propeller was like a fully automatic gearbox.
The "Rotol" constant speed propeller reduced the pilot's workload during combat and provided a VAST improvement to the overall performance of the aircraft they were fitted to.
Eric "Winkle" Brown's book "Duels in the sky" states that in his opinion the joint overall best fighter aircraft in WW2 were the Spitfire & Fw190. The Me-109 doesn't even make the top 6.
1. Supermarine Spitfire / FW-190.
2. Grumman Hellcat.
3. North American Mustang IV.
4. Mitsubishi Zeke.
5. Hawker Tempest V.
6. Kawanishi N1K2 Shinden-Kai.
(P.S Eric Brown is STILL the world's most experienced & respected test pilot, with more aircraft types flown than ANY other pilot in history, and consequently his opinion is one which is undeniably worth taking into consideration.)
As for the varied merits of both aircraft, another unmentioned aspect is the matter of relative firepower. The Me109E had....
2x 7.92mm MG17s above the engine each with 1000 rounds of ammo. The MG17 had a rate of fire of 1200rpm which gave 50 seconds of fire.
2x 20mm MG FF cannon in the wings with just 60 rounds of ammo each. The MG FF even with its relatively low rate of fire of 540rpm gave just over SIX SECONDS of potent but low density fire.
So after those 6 seconds of fire the 109E had 44 seconds of fire left from just TWO 7.92mm MG , effectively making the average Me 109E a one (or sometimes two) punch wonder.
The RAF fighter's 16 seconds of EIGHT .303 Brownings firing at 1150rpm looks a LOT less anaemic when viewed like that.
With regards to dogfighting the nazi's MG FF itself was far from an ideal weapon. As well as its low rate of fire, it's low muzzle velocity meant that when used in a "turning battle" or at high angles of deflection it was an incredibly difficult weapon to achieve hits with. It was best employed in "Boom and Zoom" tactics, where a diving 109 would fall on an unsuspecting British fighter and shred it before it had time to react.... Experienced 109 pilots were loath to get into a "turning fight" with a Spitfire or Hurricane.
In defence of the 8 x .303s of the British fighters and their lack of outright destructive power, one RAF pilot (either Al Deere or Adolph Malan, I can't remember) voiced the opinion of many RAF pilots when they were recorded as saying they preferred to send a German bomber back to France, riddled with bullet holes, both engines smoking with its aircrew dead and dying rather than shooting it down outright.
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Β @JamesRichards-mj9kwΒ The VERY first bombs to fall on the land of EITHER country during WW2? The Luftwaffe attack on RAF Sullom Voe in the Shetland Islands on 13th November 1939. The RAF RESPONDED by dropping their VERY FIRST bombs on German soil by attacking the German seaplane base on the island of Sylt in the North sea on 19th March 1940, FOUR MONTHS after the first of repeated German air attacks on RAF and Royal Navy bases on the British mainland. Prior to the RAF's attack on Sylt in March 1940, they had been prohibited by the British government from dropping ANY bombs on German soil whatsoever, instead preferring to avoid civilian casualties by supplying the German demand for toilet paper and dropping propaganda leaflets over German cities instead.
The first civilian casualty of either of the two countries was a Mr James Isbister who on 16th March 1940 was killed in the village of Brig o' Waithe in the Orkney islands during a luftwaffe attack on Scapa Flow. The first RAF bombs to land on the German mainland fell on May 11th 1940, and were likewise ostensibly directed at military targets such as Bridges and railyards west of the river Rhine to disrupt the supply of the German armies then attacking France and the Low countries. Both sides in striking designated non civilian targets regularly caused what is quaintly known as "collateral civilian casualties" (Remember while we're discussing this we're ignoring the direct aerial assaults of the nazis on Polish towns and cities in the east and the bombing of Rotterdam and the aerial attacks executed against the roads of France clogged with hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing from the invading German armies in the west).
The first large scale infliction of civilian casualties between Germans and the British? (once again we're disregarding the bombing by Germany of other nation's civilians, and concentrating on their attacks solely against Britain) During the second phase of the "battle of Britain" the Luftwaffe attacked multiple RAF fighter stations within the boundary of Greater London such as RAF Biggin Hill, Hornchurch, Kenley & Northolt through the first 2 weeks of August 1940. During these attacks HUNDREDS of "collateral" civilian deaths were inflicted on the British populace.
On the night of 23/24th August 1940 the RAF once again RESPONDED to these German air attacks by launching their FIRST bombing of targets within a city, by attacking Templehof airport and Klingenberg Power Station in the suburbs of Berlin.
This precipitated the first widespread air attacks on civilian targets when the German launched their "blitz" against London and 50 other British towns and cities, culminating in the first attempt by humanity to create an "aerial firestorm", that being the Luftwaffe bombing of Coventry on the night of 14/15th November 1940.
Once again the British RESPONDED by launching their VERY FIRST aerial attack directed specifically at German civilians, that being "Operation Abigail" the RAF attack on the German city of Mannheim on the night of 16/17th Dec 1940. (For comparisons sake the Luftwaffe murdered 568 innocent British cvilians during their attack on Coventry, the British for their part murdered 34 innocent German civilians during their bombing of Mannheim).
Do you see the pattern that has formed? Initial (and repeated) luftwaffe aerial attacks on Britain that caused a British response.
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Β @JamesRichards-mj9kwΒ Wrong from start to finish. The first civilian aerial bombing in human history was carried out by? Surprise surprise the Germans when they bombed Liege in Belgium by zeppelin on August 4th 1914.
The VERY first bombs to fall on the land of EITHER country during WW2? The Luftwaffe attack on RAF Sullom Voe in the Shetland Islands on 13th November 1939. The RAF RESPONDED by dropping their VERY FIRST bombs on German soil by attacking the German seaplane base on the island of Sylt in the North sea on 19th March 1940, FOUR MONTHS after the first of repeated German air attacks on RAF and Royal Navy bases on the British mainland. Prior to the RAF's attack on Sylt in March 1940, they had been prohibited by the British government from dropping ANY bombs on German soil whatsoever, instead preferring to avoid civilian casualties by supplying the German demand for toilet paper and dropping propaganda leaflets over German cities instead.
The first civilian casualty of either of the two countries was a Mr James Isbister who on 16th March 1940 was killed in the village of Brig o' Waithe in the Orkney islands during a luftwaffe attack on Scapa Flow. The first RAF bombs to land on the German mainland fell on May 11th 1940, and were likewise ostensibly directed at military targets such as Bridges and railyards west of the river Rhine to disrupt the supply of the German armies then attacking France and the Low countries. Both sides in striking designated non civilian targets regularly caused what is quaintly known as "collateral civilian casualties" (Remember while we're discussing this we're ignoring the direct aerial assaults of the nazis on Polish towns and cities in the east and the bombing of Rotterdam and the aerial attacks executed against the roads of France clogged with hundreds of thousands of refugees fleeing from the invading German armies in the west).
The first large scale infliction of civilian casualties between Germans and the British? (once again we're disregarding the bombing by Germany of other nation's civilians, and concentrating on their attacks solely against Britain) During the second phase of the "battle of Britain" the Luftwaffe attacked multiple RAF fighter stations within the boundary of Greater London such as RAF Biggin Hill, Hornchurch, Kenley & Northolt through the first 2 weeks of August 1940. During these attacks HUNDREDS of "collateral" civilian deaths were inflicted on the British populace.
On the night of 23/24th August 1940 the RAF once again RESPONDED to these German air attacks by launching their FIRST bombing of targets within a city, by attacking Templehof airport and Klingenberg Power Station in the suburbs of Berlin.
This precipitated the first widespread air attacks on civilian targets when the German launched their "blitz" against London and 50 other British towns and cities, culminating in the first attempt by humanity to create an "aerial firestorm", that being the Luftwaffe bombing of Coventry on the night of 14/15th November 1940.
Once again the British RESPONDED by launching their VERY FIRST aerial attack directed specifically at German civilians, that being "Operation Abigail" the RAF attack on the German city of Mannheim on the night of 16/17th Dec 1940. (For comparisons sake the Luftwaffe murdered 568 innocent British cvilians during their attack on Coventry, the British for their part murdered 34 innocent German civilians during their bombing of Mannheim).
Do you see the pattern that has formed? Initial (and repeated) luftwaffe aerial attacks on Britain that caused a British response.
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