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andrew worth
Nate The Lawyer
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Comments by "andrew worth" (@andrewworth7574) on "Was I Wrong About The Sonya Massey Shooting?" video.

@triiileigh and yet Nate insists she throws it, when all that is visible of the pot is that it's above her head and is tipping. There's no evidence on the video of forward motion towards Grayson. I'm no more clutching at insufficient evidence than Nate is. My version does have the merit of being consistent with all of what we can see.
9
Grayson fires sooner than Nate claims, it's actually the recoil from the gun that brings her and the pot into view. Her left arm comes down before the pot starts to tilt. Without two hands on the pot she doesn't have control of it. She's just stopping it landing on her. From a height of 1.2 metres, falling free, water hits the ground at 4.7m/s. As it splashes it'll produce a lot of stream, with the water and steam moving across the floor at a similar speed. That easily explains the steam appearing from behind the counter that quickly.
7
@NephritduGrey how do you know the pot landed on the chair, or anywhere near it? If a gallon or so of hot water hits the floor it's going to splash out and spread across the floor
6
@Flight042 I've looked at the Police Activity footage. Look again at Nate's timing of the shots. He's shooting downwards, the recoil is pushing his arms up. Nate's timing has the shots fired causing his arms to recoil downwards. That doesn't make sense. He tells her to put the pot down, she puts it on the counter, when it's sitting on the counter he again tells her to put the &^%$ pot down. Obviously he was still angry with her putting it where she did and she picks it up to put it on the floor. Then she sees him coming around the counter, angry, gun in her face, he's towering over her. That's when she really panics, instinct takes over, she starts to put her hands up. With oven gloves, she starts to lose control of the pot, it's still mostly upright when he fires his first shot. Her left arm comes down, at this point she has no real control over the pot, at most she can push with her right hand to stop it landing on her. For her to push it towards Grayson her right hand would have to be behind the pot from Grayson's perspective. It is not, from his view it's clearly on the left side of the pot.
6
@sarahlynn7894 she placed the pot on the beach when he told her to put it down. After it was there, he again told her to put the &^%$$ pot down. Obviously, he wasn't happy with where she'd put it, so she tried to move it to the floor. Then she saw him coming around the counter, angry, menacing, in her last moments, panicking, she tried to put her hands up. With oven mitts on, she started to lose control of it. His first shot was when the pot was just starting to fall, her left hand came down, with only her right hand on it she had no control over it, at most she could push it sideways with her right hand to stop in landing on her. She could not push it towards Grayson with one hand unless that hand was behind the pot from Grayson's perspective. It was not. From his perspective, her hand was on the left side of the pot.
6
 @pm88_88 he didn't "correct himself" he offered reasons why he thought he was right and others wrong. That's closer to doubling down.
4
@djglass7883 incidentally, Grayson is a psychopath, when they speak to her at the door she expresses her fear of being harmed by them. Normal people in that situation will have empathy and try to reassure someone, to a psychopath a timid worried person like that is just an opportunity to bully. He was looking for an excuse throughout and her innocuous "I rebuke you . . ." Was the excuse he needed. He even crossed in front of the other officer - an incredably unprofessional but assertive thing to do, to be in at the kill (even if the excuse for an actual kill didn't materialize).
4
@djglass7883 stop whining. You say he's great, I largely agree. But in this video however, you know, the one your comment is under, I think he's made a bad mistake.
4
Quarterbacking aside, after she put the pot on the bench he threateningly demanded that she put it down, so she was looking to put it down further. She was terrified. Then as he advanced angrily she instinctively tried to put her hands up, he then fired (was she hit?) She lost her grip on the hot pot (oven gloves) and was at most, (again instinctively) trying to stop it land on her. The pot falling as it did is not evidence of it being thrown, nor is the steam appearing from the end of the counter, from 1.2 metres up in freefall the pot hits the floor at 4.7m/s, it would produce a lot of steam and the water would splash, releasing more steam.
4
@triiileigh if the pot freefell from 1.2 metres it hits the floor at 4.7m/s, if it holds a gallon, that water is going to splash and spread over several feet of the floor, the steam is going to spread above the hot water. If it lands close to her, it's still going to quickly appear on the floor at the end of the counter.
4
@carlosoliveira-rc2xt she was never a suspect.
4
@marcmayhem0412 she picked it up because he told her to put it &^%$ down when it was sitting on the counter, he obviously wasn't happy with where it was, so she tried to move it to the floor, then, seeing seeing him so close she tried to put her hands up, lost control of the pot, was only trying to stop it landing on her.
4
She never threw the pot, the belief that she did is people climbing on a motivated reasoning bandwagon. There's video evidence that the pot was found right by her body, it had fallen vertically, the hot water had just splashed across the floor, the majority of the water was around her.
3
@breyor1 that "pot in the chair" has misled many people. In the video at Gen Z Attorney (11;25) you can see both the pot in the chair (actually a small bucket) and the actual pot, in the same frame, as cop 2 picks up the actual pot from near her body and, holding it with a cloth, for some reason, puts it on the floor behind him by moving it back between his legs (don't ask me why he did that), at that point he'd managed to dislodge the bucket from the chair, allowing it to fall to the floor. He also moved other objects around in the crime scene (a barbers chair), for I've no idea what reason.
3
@kingamuser1 I strongly disagree with his claim of "pot thrown", but he's made a good faith claim, so I'm fine with him. Though if his take is incorrect, as I see it, he's terribly maligned the dead victim of an horrific crime.
3
@triiileigh Grayson told her to put the pot down, so she put the pot down on the bench. Did that placate his aggressive and threatening advance? No, to him it made no difference, he was clearly dissatisfied with where she placed it because after she'd put it on the bench he again demanded that she "PUT THE ^%%#^ POT DOWN!" His shouting. If she wanted to placate him by obeying his instructions, she had no option other than to try to transfer the pot to the floor. And if you think she was just going to ignore the instructions of an angry cop, gun pointing at her, who'd just threatened to shoot her in the ^#%^$ face, you've got zero empathy for the terrifying situation she was in. Then she turned to see him approaching, her instincts took over. What's her instinctive goto when in great fear for her life from a threatening cop? We saw it a few seconds earlier, she threw her hands up! Did you notice that after the pot had dropped to the floor, after he'd stopped shooting, that Grayson again demanded that she "PUT THE #%^%$ POT DOWN!"? "Where the water (and pot) lands." They landed on and around her, which you'd know if you'd looked at the BWC film from cop 2 when he checked her after she was dead.
3
I largely agree, but after she put the pot on the bench, he again demanded that she put the pot down - to her, I think, a demand from him to move it to the floor. When he came around the counter, her instincts kicked, as they had earlier, when he first pointed his gun at her, and again, she put her hands up.
3
@macpappy3461 Nate shows her with the pot over her head immediately prior to being shot 8:10
3
@macpappy3461 I've argued, I think with good cause, that in that instance she was acting on instinct and, as she did just a few seconds earlier when he threatened to shoot her, she was trying to put her hands up. Terrified out of her mind. There's video evidence that the pot landed on or beside her.
3
 @mikejunior211 once she threw the water she was out of pots of water to throw. We can see that his first shot missed, his second and third were after he knew the threat had passed.
3
@chuiduma I'm familiar with rifles, not so much handguns, so I checked a video from mannixknives firing a 9mm Glock. While most of the recoil was shown in the hand and wrist, his arms were also moving up with each shot. "Upwards to shoot" I've no idea where you get that from, he was pointing down at her to shoot her. I've also no idea why you should think I was under the impression that his aim was too high for her to be what he was aiming at. The BWC is on his chest, the most misleading aspect of those cameras is that they give a view lower than the officers eye view. Obviously. Exact timing of a shot by ear is difficult because A. The bullet leaves the barrel before the propelling gases, and B. In an enclosed space the echo that a microphone behind the gun hears is often louder that the shot itself and causes people to focus on the later, and louder report. To get the best timing you need to get the absolute first instant of the report.
2
@chuiduma just to be clear, the reason a gunshot sounds far louder in an enclosed space like a room compared to outdoors is because the report reverborates around the room for several tens of milliseconds.
2
@djglass7883 1. Unbiased. That would make him a unique human being. What you mean is that his bias and yours are in agreement.
2
@jwpilgreen "In the United States you do not have the legal right to use violence to defend yourself against a police officer". False.
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@timk9847 you saw the quotation marks? That I was quoting the other commenter, labeling their claim false?
2
@djglass7883 if you don't want people replying to your comments, don't comment. It's a long time I've seen so much banal whining.
2
@djglass7883 "IN THE NAME OF JEBUS". I have to admit the "Jebus" bit is original.
2
@djglass7883 "that they don't want to talk to you." And yet you just keep on talking.
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@djglass7883 you're projecting again.
2
@Nemaary it's close, the bullet leaves the barrel before the sound is heard, when I look at the movement of his arms for the recoil of each shot, Nate's timing seems a few milliseconds late, but that's all we're talking about in that fast moving clip. Edit, watched it again at 0.25. Nate has the recoil from each shot pushing his arms down. That's wrong, he's shooting down, the recoil pushes his arms up.
2
That's the point I've made before, he obviously wasn't happy with where she'd put the pot, so she picked it up and was lowering it to the floor. Then with him still advancing and angrily yelling at her, she was in complete terror, she tried to put her hands up, with the pot over her head he fired. She lost control of the pot (was she hit by a bullet?) and was at most trying to stop the falling pot of hot water landing on her. Water from that height hits the floor at 4.7m/s and will splash across a hard floor, so the steam appearing at the end of the counter is no surprise, even if the pot dropped vertically. Bizarrely, he tells her to put the pot down, again, after he's stopped firing and she's on the ground dead with the pot also on the floor.
2
@triiileigh there's a simple experiment you could try: Hold a similar sized pot or small bucket 4 feet above a hard smooth surface on your hand, rotate your hand until the pot falls off. I did this, the water washed 9 feet across concrete pavers. On linoleum it would have gone at least as far. If the pot dropped vertically the water would have gotten to the end of the counter. No throwing required.
2
@triiileigh I said "they landed on and around her", your reply, "How are you claiming the water ended up there with or by her, when it clearly splashes . . ? This is me again referencing my experiment
2
@triiileigh thanks, from where I started, with either Nate's or Bruce Rivers initial assessments. Events for her have just been shown to have been so much worse.
2
Nate fails to consider whether she was in fear for her life. Given Grayson's aggression and threats, I think such a level of fear would be reasonable. If she was in fear that she was about to be executed with a shot in the face, she would be legally within her rights to use deadly force, or whatever force available, to defend herself.
2
@alexanderjamieson7971 given his explicit threat to execute her, she had the legal right to defend herself against the aggressor.
2
 @Mythoughtsoutlouder she never threatened to throw the water. "Rebuking" someone is not threatening someone, unless you're woke and think a rebuke is violence.
2
 @zentnium3801 his first shot missed, by the time he fired his third shot, likely the one that killed her, she was all out of pots of water and unarmed.
2
@MsE711 yep, cops sometimes get it wrong. Obviously.
2
@johnchristopher3032 he hunted her like a predator hunting prey. She reacted like a gazelle kicking out at the lion as he strikes. The lion has no basis for claiming self defense when he kills.
2
@DawgBone7.62 Any news room editor would look at Grayson's footage and rule it out, with all the blurring necessary there would be nothing left. she didn't toss the pot of hot water. That's why it hasn't been mentioned.
2
@DawgBone7.62 how do you know where the pot came to rest? It cannot be seen. Steam can be seen, but perhaps surprisingly to you, when the pot hit the floor (wherever that was) the water didn't stay in the pot, as would be expected, it splashed across the floor with a burst of steam above it.
2
@jtamm1988 Grayson turned it on immediately after shooting, the camera's actually store footage from a few seconds (someone said 35 seconds) before they're turned on.
2
@johngarry1238 a small woman in a crouched position with a pot of water weighing 8lb(?). She would only have been able to lob it. He would have easily seen it was a miss. He didn't even try to dodge it, which he could have easily done had it been close. We can see the first shot didn't hit her, by his second and third shots he knew she was no threat, she had no more pots of hot water to throw.
1
human reaction times are a tenth of a second, the gap between shots was about half a second. After each shot the gun recoil requires the aim to be corrected for the next shot. The claim that changes in the situation needn't to be taken into account on deciding on whether or not following shots are justified is nonsense.
1
@user-xp9ry8yh9z after watching a lot more video, including that directly released by the police, I've had to amend my position. She did throw the pot, it's visible, upside-down on the black chair behind the end of the counter after the shooting, it can be seen steaming. When she threw the pot, she was acting instinctively. We saw a classic case of flight then fight reflex from someone who had become convinced by another person, through their threats and actions, that they were fully committed to killing her. Initially she ducked down (flight), when he started coming around the counter there was no where left for her to hide. When she threw the water, it went everywhere, including landing on her (in one shot you can see a splash of water escaping upwards as she throws). Through aggression, malice, and stupidity, Grayson forced her into a situation where she had no options other than to act desperately to try to survive.
1
@user-xp9ry8yh9z what happened is analogous to a cat cornering a mouse and then feeling aggrieved that the mouse tried to bite it before it was killed.
1
@empresspoobah second attempt to post this comment, but without the link to the video cited. There's a 36;15 minute long video from the Sangamon County Sheriff's Office July 6 2024. At 28;30, immediately after the shooting the pot is steaming away on the black chair. At 16;16, when cop2 goes in after the shooting, the pot is still upside down on the black chair. At 16;20, you can hear what sounds like the pot falling to the floor and bouncing. At 16;22, you can see him picking up the pot from near the victim and passing it back between his legs, in the same frame the pot is no longer on the chair, there is a small metallic looking bucket under the chair.
1
@empresspoobah when I first looked at the Sangamon Sheriff's video I was looking for the pot near the victim, I thought case closed as I first saw the 16;22 frames of it. Later I backtracked and saw it initially on the chair, then not on the chair.
1
@supermanzr1of1 he told her to put it down after she started moving it to the counter, so she put it on the counter. Then again he told her to put it down, obviously he was unhappy with the position on the counter so, thinking, she was moving it to the floor. Then she saw him coming menacingly towards her, angry, gun in her face, in terror and instinct taking over, she tried to put her hands up. When she ducked down earlier, behind the counter when he drew, that was another example of instinct taking over.
1
@theeraphatsunthornwit6266 here's an easy challenge for you, I won't ask you to do it in your kitchen, outside on the concrete will be fine. Take a pot with about 3/4 of a gallon of water in it (I just used a small plastic bucket - and broke it), let it fall from your hand from 4 feet, rotating as it falls, and measure how far the water washes across the floor. With a plastic bucket, rough concrete pavers and cold water, in my experiment it went 9 feet. That's just holding it on top of my hand and rotating my hand to make it fall. I've no doubt that with hot water on a linoleum floor it would wash at least that far.
1
@theeraphatsunthornwit6266 in the Gen Z Attorneys video the scene in the kitchen after the shooting is shown, briefly, at the 11;25 point in the video the cop is seen, using a cloth, lifting the pot from near the body and moving it back between his legs, in the same shot to the right there's a small bucket that was on the swivel chair that fell to the floor as he moved things around in the crime scene.
1
Is that fact or speculation?
1
@triiileigh you said: "the disrespect and callous acts of leaving her to die." I've heard a little of the autopsy report, I'm wondering from that if you know more. I understand only one bullet hit, that it struck in her lower eyelid on a downward trajectory exiting though the back of her lower neck. Such a trajectory could entirely miss the brain (pretty much back and downward from the lower eyelid is the top of the mouth). A bullet could exit through the neck missing the spinal column. If so she could have been alive for minutes after being hit. Have you any information about this? Thanks.
1
@triiileigh if you go to Gen Z Attorney's video, at 11;25, you can see cop 2 using a cloth to pick up the pot from near her body, moving it back between his legs. In that frame, to the right, is a small upside-down bucket, that had been sitting on the black chair, it fell when he moved the chair, many people have mistaken that bucket for the pot. Arguing that it had landed on the chair after she'd thrown it.
1
 @Mythoughtsoutlouder "using a taser" The water is irrelevant, you're no electrician.
1
@Mythoughtsoutlouder "so she would have spilled boiling water on herself" And that would be worse than being shot in the face? Because Grayson threatened her, then drew his weapon and aimed at her with her having made no threat, it was Grayson whom acted as the assailant. Sonya was legally entitled to defend herself against an aggressor in her own home. That is why Grayson is charged with murder 1. Grayson had given Sonya good reason to believe that he was about to carry out his threat to "shoot her in the &^%$#% face!".
1
@Mythoughtsoutlouder it was Grayson who needed to calm down, to Sonya he had gone berserk, defending herself with whatever was at hand was reasonable. A bullet in the face is often fatal, any burns to her not, you're overstaying to try to support your initial poor premise. There is indeed a reason for the force escalation continuum, it means the officer is justified in that his actions are the response to aggression, rather than him becoming the aggressor. "Calm down" Interesting that you should attempt to portray me as excitable, when all my points have been so measured and you're the one trying to suggest a bullet in the face is less deadly than a falling pot of hot water. Sonya Massey was not instantly killed, the bullet entered immediately below her eye, traveled through her mouth on a downward trajectory, then traveled through her neck, severing arteries but missing the spinal column.
1
@Mythoughtsoutlouder "symbolic profanity" Again an attempt to portray me as unreasonable. No, I said nothing profane, symbolic or otherwise. When Sonya Massey lifted a pot of very hot water above her head in an attempt to ward off her attacker, do you think she was aware of the risk of harm to herself from that water that her action caused? So why did she do it? Because she recognized that the armed and berserk Grayson presented a far greater risk to her life and wellbeing. From cop2's BWC it's evident that the water was spread from where Sonya was standing to where the pot came to rest in the chair, almost certainly some of it did land on her. Your logic is faulty in that the taser, like a gun, is primarily used as a threat of force, rather than actually fired. With Sonya, holding a pot of hot water, the threat is greater, and the greater the threat, as long as not elevated to the point that the target sees it as inevitable and mortal, will more likely force compliance with commands. So when it came to choosing between a taser vs firearm, the taser was still the more reasonable choice. But I doubt Grayson put much thought into that choice, Grayson chose the Glock because his natural preference was for the more deadly weapon.
1
@Mythoughtsoutlouder "throw boiling water" As near as I can judge (and I've looked closely at the dimensions of the objects in the video to get as close as I can to the correct scale). The pot came to rest about 5 feet from where Sonya was standing, about 4 feet from Grayson who was at a significant angle to the actual trajectory of the pot. Grayson first fired at very close to the time the pot left Sonya's hands, given the short distance the pot wouldn't have been moving at less than 4m/s horizontally, (4m/s is a soft throw, a lob) after each shot Grayson has to resight his weapon on the target due to recoil, that's why there's half a second between each shot, a full second between his first and third shot. The pot would have taken less than half a second to reach the chair, Grayson would have seen it moving left to right and downwards across his line of sight, disappearing behind the counter before he could reposition for his second shot. We can see Sonya at the time, and for a fraction of a second after Grayson's first shot, we know it missed. Grayson's subsequent shots were fired after the pot had disappeared from his view behind the counter. Sonya had no more pots to throw. A half second doesn't sound like a lot of time, but it's enough time for Grayson to know he was out of any danger from the pot and to choose not to continue firing.
1
@robinthrush9672 "pot empty" I agree there was hot water in the pot. But she tried to move the pot to the floor when he made it clear he was angry about it being on the counter, then when he threateningly came closer she, instinctively, tried to put her hands up, so he shot her. That's when she lost control of the pot and it fell.
1
You can find it at Illinois state police youtube video of 6th July. Grayson turned on his body cam after the shooting, but those things have a short term memory of events for a few seconds from before they're activated. So we do see those few seconds prior to Grayson's manual activation.
1
@annehunt787 the pot can be seen in some video steaming away, upside-down, on the black chair at the end of the bench immediately after the shooting. I'd also been saying she hadn't thrown it up to seeing that.
1
@ingiford175 she put the pot on the counter, she crouched down, then she took the pot off of the counter. I could add much more for context, but I'll let you carry on beating a strawman for a while.
1
@ingiford175 carry on. She picked up the pot, threw it. It's there on the black chair, hard to see how it got from her to there without her chucking it. Why did she throw it?
1
The pot of water probably weighed around 8 lb, from a crouched position a small woman could only throw it in a lob. He would easily have been able to dodge it had it been close to hitting him, which it was not. It wasn't even close enough to cause him to hesitate in his advancing into a position from which he could shoot her. Likely it was his last shot that hit her, by which time she was all out of pots to throw.
1
@DawgBone7.62 Grayson's video would have been too graphic for most outlets.
1