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SmallSpoonBrigade
Steve Lehto
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Comments by "SmallSpoonBrigade" (@SmallSpoonBrigade) on "14-Year-Old Girl Flying Alone Removed from Plane To Fix ‘Weight Imbalance’" video.

That was my thought. Removing them to settle the plane while figuring out where to put them does make at least some logical sense. It probably is faster than trying to shuffle people around on the plane with limited space. But, removing people is something you do if you're over capacity, and that even seems kind of odd here. You probably don't even need to weight them, just having folks arrange themselves in line based on their physical size would probably do it.
58
The airline passes that to the TSA as part of the process. The actual flight attendants may or may not have that information, the systems they use are rather antiquated at this point.
37
There's that, there's also the fact that she may not have understood that she was being permanently deplaned rather than being removed so that the calculations about which passengers to move to fix the situation would be easier. Having her on there while rebalancing the plane just makes the situation more complicated to resolve. These planes can be adjusted in terms of the flight computer to accommodate different weight distributions, which makes this odd as she probably could have been moved to the other side and one of the fatter people on the other side moved to her side.
28
That's a detail that a lot of folks are missing, even if she did understand that she wouldn't be getting back on the plane when she left, which it sounds like wasn't clear, she may not have felt comfortable telling a FA that and then dealing with the awkwardness of the reactions from other passengers.
24
@wolfmantroy6601 It doesn't really matter. They have minors that are flying, not deplaning them unless everybody is being deplaned or there's a behavioral/medical reason for doing so isn't much of an imposition. I wasn't much older than that when I flew by myself for the first time. And, they're extremely lucky that this wasn't after a layover.
21
@JRKonungrinn This was a 14 year old kid, not required to get that service. The service is for the airline to assume responsibility for the UM while in transit including employees escorting the kid between flights when transferring. There's no reason for a 14 year old to be forced to use that service just to avoid being bumped.
11
As somebody else pointed out, she became an unaccompanied minor when she wast he only one that was bumped, even if she hadn't already been one. There's simply no excuse for this.
10
Yes, would it have been that hard to just have the FA say that they were looking for adults to deplane to address the situation? And if it came down to forcing somebody off, indicating that it was just adults that would be deplaned and to tell the flight crew if they accidentally chose a minor? I don't know how often this has happened in the past, so this might be a novel situation where the flight crew didn't know, but it's still a bad look and something that shouldn't be blamed on the girl or her parents.
7
@wolfmantroy6601 They could ask, or they could also just indicate that this just applies to adults when making the selections. Really, there's no excuse for this. Anybody under 25 may not even have the option of renting a car and increasingly those under 21 can't rent a hotel room.
7
@horusfalcon But, it sounds like they weren't particularly clear about what was going on while that was going on, or that she didn't understand what was going on. It can be rather hard to hear what's being said during boarding.
6
@Teampegleg It costs no money to not deplane a minor child in cases like this. There should just be a rule that minors can't be deplaned for this reason.
5
@wolfmantroy6601 They could have asked or indicated that they were just deplaning adults that are old enough to rent cars or hotel rooms. Anybody under the age of 21 or 25 could be in significant trouble if they miss their flight due to the lack of available hotels and rental cars.
4
I don't think that's how that works. But, that seems to be how the airline would like it to work. When you pay for unaccompanied minor service, there's a lot more that you're supposed to get that's just not relevant to a 14 year old. For example, if there's a change of planes in the itinerary, there's supposed to be an airline employee that escorts the kid from one plane to the next so that they don't get lost in the middle. The bit about not deplaning them should not require an extra fee.
4
@Teampegleg Yes, although a 14 year old doesn't need any of that. They just need to not be deplaned. Around here, 14 year olds are routinely responsible for getting too and from school which is a lot riskier than dealing with airports.
4
@1954Gregb The service is assuming responsibility for ensuring that the UM gets where they're going, deplaning over something like this is something completely separate and there's no reason to charge the fee to ensure that it doesn't happen.
4
The issue here is that she shouldn't have been deplaned. She didn't need the full chaperone service, so they likely wouldn't have paid even if they knew. The issue is that the flight crew either wasn't allowed to or otherwise didn't bother to know that they were deplaning an UM.
3
@madmax2069 It's also not really relevant to a 14 year old as it involves the airline taking custody of the kid for the duration of their flights. I was about that age the first time that I flew on my own, and we didn't bother with that. I was more than capable of making my flights as I had flown through those airports in the past. There really should be a free option that just flags the kid as being a kid so they aren't deplaned for things like this. At least we're talking about the initial flight and not a later stage in the trip.
3
@Teampegleg There were more than one person in that fare class on the plane. They could have chosen somebody else without being in the next fare tier. If there really was just one person in that class, they wouldn't have the issues they had with balance.
3
@Teampegleg Nobody is saying that the airline needs to be responsible for watching her. What we are saying is that they shouldn't be deplaning minors when they could deplane adults. She is taking responsibility for herself, this is not a normal thing to happen and it's questionable if she even needed to be deplaned entirely when there were almost certainly fat people that could be moved to rebalance the plane.
3
@wolfmantroy6601 How is this expecting people to raise their daughter? It's simply not deplaning a minor child that doesn't have the ability to rent a car or room if need be. She was lucky that this was near where she lives because if it had been between flights, she would have been screwed.
3
@toolbaggers A 14 year old does not need supervision. There is negligible cost in not bumping teens that are flying alone.
3
TBH, that's where I get very confused about this being a balance issue. Modern jets can be programmed to account for the weight distribution of the people in the cabin before taking off. As long as significant numbers of people aren't moving around the cabin, that doesn't cause problems. Adjustments can be made in flight if the plane seems to be drifting to the side as well. If it's a lot of people being deplaned for this, that's just strange. It's also strange that they didn't just announce that they were just going to select adults and entire families to address the problem so she could object. It sounds like it wasn't clear to her if she would be getting back on the plane after the distribution issue had been addressed.
2
UM service includes a lot of things that developmentally typical tweens and teens don't need. They don't need to be chaperoned through an airport, which is a large part of what the fee gets you. UM fee or not, they should not be kicking a kid that age off the plane for anything other than medical or behavioral reasons unless everybody is being deplaned.
2
@xcalibertrekker6693 Except that that's the case for adults as well. If you remove the people that might cause problems, you're left with FedEx or UPS flights with nobody aboard except luggage.
2
I'm not sure about Canada, but in the US it's a crime to disobey flight crew instructions. And even if it's not a crime, they definitely can kick people off the plane for not cooperating during boarding if it's going to cause safety problems. Also, some people are naturally more shy or used to being required to do what the authorities around you say. The problem isn't her or her parents, it's that the airline screwed this up.
2
@msromike123 I've never been on a flight where people were deplaned for that reason. I've been flying for nearly 40 years across multiple countries. This is simply not a common occurrence and not one that the parents should be expected to pay more for just in case it becomes relevant. The airline is 100% responsible for doing this.
2
She doesn't need supervision, that's why they weren't required to pay. The only "extra" here would not being deplaned and most of the people on the plane were not deplaned. And that costs the airline nothing. I flew on my own at that age and I didn't need anything at all during the flight beyond what people normally get.
2
@Teampegleg That was pure luck on the part of the airline. This could just as easily have happened on a second leg of the journey.
2
@dmitripogosian5084 Yes, and it's not on the ticket, I certainly haven't ever been carded getting onto a domestic flight after getting through security. And the computer itself isn't on the plane anyways, that's at the terminal. I'm not sure how they're randomly selecting the seats for this, but there's no reason to believe that it's based on more than certain seats sections.
2
They could solve it once and for all just including in these announcements that it just applies to adults and kids caught up in this without their chaperone should just tell the flight crew. Done, with minimal inconvenience for anybody.
2
That's a stock answer, most modern planes can be adjusted for some weight distribution variance, but anybody moving around can complicate that and lead to other people wanting to move around. That latter part is probably the real reason.
2
It's unclear whether that information actually gets to the flight crew. It's not on any of the boarding passes I've received over the years on any airline.
1
The fee is for chaperoning the kids between flights and keeping an eye on them during the flights. Which is why kids her age aren't required to have it, but are allowed to pay for it. It's a lot less money than requiring young kids to have a parent or friend accompany them on the trip.
1
@wolfmantroy6601 No, it's the airline that couldn't figure out how to balance the plane without removing the girl. The parents didn't have anything to do with seating assignments, that was the airline. The airline could easily have not deplaned a minor to address the issue. They chose to do so. This is not the parents fault.
1
@nilremuk Yes, I'm not sure how hard it would have been to just say that this was just going to apply to adults. Really, it should be adults over the age of 25 as they can at least rent a car, whereas those under can't rent a car and those under 21 may not even be able to rent a hotel room.
1
Yes, there really isn't any way of looking at this which isn't damning to the airline. The best people have been able to do is blame her for not speaking up and the parents for not paying the fee. But, even that is pretty weak.
1
Yes, I see no reason why the policy isn't just to exclude UM from things like this explicitly when making the announcements. If for some reason, there is a UM that they don't know about, at least the UM gets a chance to say, yo' I'm not with adults here.
1
@advena996 That's what the fee is for and while teens don't require the fee. You pay the money so that the airline takes responsibility for making sure that the kid gets where they're going safely. For teens of this age, there's no reason for the service at all as most teens of that age are old enough to go to the mall unescorted, so being at the airport isn't that big of a deal.
1
@Kas-tle Possibly, although that doesn't mean that the flight crew knows the ages of the passengers as that's not on the ticket and you've typically gone through multiple rounds of verification before you get to the gate. The only time I've ever been checked at the gate was in Canada by customs enforcement right before I got on an international flight. It's a smart move to take on last stab at finding people that shouldn't be on the flight.
1
@brettstowell4029 That's not true of the US according to the FAA information pamphlet. You have to be at least 5.
1
@brettstowell4029 Not true, you have to be at least 5 years old in the US. And at age 11 or 12 you can do it without paying for a chaperone.
1
@wolfmantroy6601 They shouldn't need to, the airline should just do better. It doesn't sound like they were being particularly clear about what they were asking if she was standing by the gate after being deplaned and hoping the door wouldn't close without her on board. Being a parent is expensive and they shouldn't have to pay for the unaccomapnied minor fee if all they're needing is to not be deplaned in this sort of unusual situation. The fee existed when I was a kid and it was for younger kids and involved a lot more than just not deplaning them in situations like this. A 14 year old has no need of that sort of service as the airline isn't supposed to deplane them like this.
1
There's also sensors to help them know if the plane is over the limit or unbalanced prior to taking off, which is how they knew that something needed to be done in the first place.
1
I think the cost depends a bit on the airline, but there isn't really any good reason for tweens and teens to use the UM service, at least not if they're typical teens. Kids that age are already capable of navigating malls, the only real difference is a bit of time management and finding your way to the gate. Which shouldn't be problems if they're properly prepared.
1
There were other people kicked off. The issue here is that they shouldn't be deplaning teens just because they didn't pay to be chaperoned for the trip.
1
@madmax2069 Which is why they should have just included that this was just for adults when making the announcement.
1
Just because the airline knows doesn't necessarily mean that the flight crew has access to that information. Unless somebody is specifically flying as an UM, they have no need to know anybody's age apart from for alcohol service and they have to card for that anyways. In fact if they're taking data security seriously, that wouldn't even be provided to the cabin crew.
1
That's not what the money is for, that's for the airline chaperoning the kid through the flights they're taking. That shouldn't be required to simply not be deplaned and potentially left stranded in a random city.
1
@XtreeM_FaiL Yep, that's the part that really doesn't make sense. Having people temporarily deplane while they plan out the rearrangement makes some sense, but not letting them back on with new seats is the bit I don't get unless they were actually overweight and it wasn't being properly communicated.
1
@adamleblanc6263 I assume this is similar in Canada, but in the US you're legally required to follow flight crew instructions. I'm somewhat less clear on exactly at what point it becomes a criminal matter to disregard them, but they can kick people off the plane even before they get airborne.
1
 @wolfmantroy6601 The fee is for being chaperoned, not to avoid being abandoned in the airport, and airport that could have easily been hundreds of kilometers away from her home.
1
Kids that age used to hang out at malls by themselves back before malls started to get killed off by online shopping. I'm not sure that an airport is that much less safe.
1
@mariegarside8830 Even with those things, I've been to a few hotels recently where you have to be at least 21 years old, even if you have a credit card and ID>
1
@mf-- There are guidelines that require certain compensation over time. It depends on how long the wait is although it can be hard to make use of things like food vouchers if the restaurants have already closed for the evening.
1
@dmitripogosian5084 Essentially yes, although it can get tricky if any part of the flight does fly over US airspace. There's no visas required as long as the flight doesn't land in the US, however, things like the no fly list do still apply just for entering US airspace.
1
My guess is poorly thought out policies and insufficient room for the flight crew involved to make better decisions. Simply making it so that the deplaning was just for adults or kids with chaperones would have avoided this.
1
Temporarily deplaning does make some sense to me, as that can be quicker. But, permanently deplaning them over a balance issue makes very little sense.
1
@SylviaRustyFae It's mostly a fee to go towards the added work that's involved between flights. There shouldn't be any actual fee for what goes on on the flight itself as there shouldn't be any real increase in work for the flight crew.
1
Yep, there are systems to help a plane fly when unbalanced, but sometimes just moving people around is the safer option.
1
I think a lot of people would beg to be the ones to get off instead of her if they were running that tight. Just the people with flight anxiety under normal conditions alone would do it. That being said, it was more than just her. She was just the only minor on her own.
1
@willmeredith8765 Yes, but tax policies can remove a lot of the incentive to engage in greedy actions.
1