Comments by "John Burns" (@johnburns4017) on "Who were technologically superior? The Axis or Allies in WW2?" video.
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There is a myth that the Germans were way ahead of the British in jet engines and planes in WW2, when the opposite is true. The WW2 German jet engines were extremely unreliable with low performances and very high fuel consumption. The German axial-flow turbojets never worked properly being developed up to 1953 by the French to obtain a usable engine. The French lost a lot of time playing around with the German engines, instead of working with the British. The French and Soviets after WW2 attempted to improve the German axial-flow engines largely failing.
The British in order to get a usable and reliable jet engine, with the technology of the time, went for a centrifugal design rather than the troublesome axial-flow design. This design produced less thrust than an axial-flow but was quicker to develop and reliable. It took 5 months to develop, while the first reliable axial-flow engine was the 1950 Rolls Royce Avon, which took 5 years to get right.
In 1945 the French made and tested some German designed turbo jets made with quality steel unavailable to German industry in WW2. They ran for 25 hours instead of 10 hours to the Germans engines that used poor quality steel. Not much better. The German axial-flow engines failed because of heavy design faults. The centrifugal compressor used by the first British Meteor plane was fine being much more reliable, but unable to reach high compression ratios. This limited performances. Centrifugal compressors were used up to the 1960s.
In 1945 the team from the French ATAR laboratory plus some BMW and Junkers engineers, were engaged by the French SNECMA research bureau, with the objective to built a new reliable with performance axial-flow turbojet. The BMW 003/Jumo004 was considered unusable. It was tested on the first French jet aircraft, the 1946 So6000 Triton, overheating and exploding. The plane only flew with a Rolls Royce Nene centrifugal turbojet.
The ATAR project took 6 years to produce the first acceptable axial-flow turbojet (ATAR 101 B1), produced in 1953. So eight years research & developments by the French using the German jet engines as the base. It was installed on the first French jet fighter, the Dassault Ouragan.
The French lost a lot of time because the German jets had poor efficiency with some concept fails. Essentially in the combustion chambers and fresh air circulation to reduce the external temperature of the engine. The BMW jet was known for overheat problems which precluded fuselage installation.
The question at the end of WW2 was what is the most efficient way to produce jet fighters. The answer is clearly not adopting the German design of engine and fuselage. The build costs for a jet engine were much higher than a piston engine, with the fuel consumption near 3x. The centrifugal compressor the British adopted in some planes was the best choice with 1944-45 technology, more compression pressure was not an advantage when the hot turbine was unable to resist higher temperatures. The German turbojets had big overheat problems as the engine would not work in an enclosed fuselage for single engined fighters. This defect was immediately noted by the French on the 1946 "SO 6000 Triton" prototype, and by the Soviets on the 1946 Mig 9. The Soviets quickly replaced the BMW 004B2 by the centrifugal Rolls Royce Nene which worked without problems, dismissing the BMW engine for fighter planes.
The Rolls Royce Nene was copied to the last nut by the USSR being installed in the Mig 15 being used effectively in the Korean war. About 10 years ago the USSR eventually paid royalties to Rolls Royce.
The Meteor was the first proper fully developed jet plane introduced. The 262 was slightly faster than the Meteor F3, but extremely unreliable. The British would never put into the sky such an undeveloped plane as the me262. the Me262 and Meteor were leagues apart in safety and reliability. The British could have had a jet fighter operational in 1941, but it would have been as bad as the me262.
The Germans advanced R&D on jets after they interrogated captured British RAF men. They learned the British were advanced in jet technology actually flying prototype planes. Until then the Germans had no intention of mass producing jet planes.
The rushed together Me262 started claiming kills on 26 July 1944. However the supposed kill was a Mosquito reconnaissance plane that had a fuselage cap blown off in a quick fast manoeuvre, which flew on landing in Italy. The Meteor claimed its first V1 kill a few days later on the 4 August 1944. But the Meteor was a proper fully developed jet plane, not a thrown together desperate effort as the me262 was. The me262 fuselage was similar to a piston plane with the pilot over the wings obscuring downward vision, while the Meteor was a proper new design fuselage specifically for jet fighters with a forward of the wings pilot position with superior vision, as we see today. The cockpit was very quiet. The high tail was not to impede the rear jet thrust. The sweptback wings of the me262 were to move the engines further back for better weight distribution, not for aerodynamic reasons as is thought the case. The 262 balancing problem would be exasperated when firing the guns as the weight of the bullets exiting suddenly made the the air-frame unbalanced.
There were five turbojet engines in the UK under R&D in WW2:
▪ Centrifugal, by Whittle (Rover);
▪ Centrifugal, by Frank Halford (DeHaviland);
▪ Axial-flow, by Metro-Vick;
▪ Axial-flow by Griffiths (Rolls Royce);
▪ Axial flow compressor, with reverse flow combustion chambers. The ASX by Armstrong Siddley;
Metro-Vick sold their jet engine division to Armstrong Siddley. The Metro-Vick engine transpired into the post war Sapphire. Most American engines in the 1940s/50s were of UK design, many made under licence. The US licensed the J-42 (RR Nene) and J-48 (RR Tay), being virtually identical to the British engines. US aircraft used licensed British engines powering the: P-59, P-80, T-33, F9F Panther, F9F-6 Cougar, FJ Fury 3 and 4, Martin B-57 Canberra, F-94 Starfire, A4 Skyhawk and the A7 Corsair.
The US General Electric J-47 turbojet was developed by General Electric in conjunction with Metropolitan Vickers of the UK, who had already developed a 9-stage axial-flow compressor engine licensing the design to Allison in 1944 for the earlier J-35 engine first flying in May 1948. The centrifugal Rolls Royce Nene is one of the highest production jet engines in history with over 50,000 built.
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There is a myth that the Germans were way ahead of the British in jet engines and planes in WW2, when the opposite is true. The WW2 German jet engines were extremely unreliable with low performances and very high fuel consumption. The German axial-flow turbojets never worked properly being developed up to 1953 by the French to obtain a usable engine. The French lost a lot of time playing around with the German engines, instead of working with the British. The French and Soviets after WW2 attempted to improve the German axial-flow engines largely failing.
The British in order to get a usable and reliable jet engine quickly into service that was superior to the best piston planes, with the technology of the time, went for a centrifugal design rather than the troublesome axial-flow design. This design produced less thrust than an axial-flow but was quicker to develop and reliable. It took 5 months to develop, while the first reliable axial-flow engine was the 1950 Rolls Royce Avon, which took 5 years to get right.
In 1945 the French made and tested some German designed turbo jets made with quality steel unavailable to German industry in WW2. They ran for 25 hours instead of 10 hours to the German engines that used poor quality steel. Not much better. The German axial-flow engines failed because of heavy design faults. The centrifugal compressor used by the first British Meteor plane was fine being much more reliable, but unable to reach high compression ratios. This limited performances. Centrifugal compressors were used up to the 1960s.
In 1945 the team from the French ATAR laboratory plus some BMW and Junkers engineers, were engaged by the French SNECMA research bureau, with the objective to built a new reliable with performance axial-flow turbojet. The BMW 003/Jumo004 was considered unusable. It was tested on the first French jet aircraft, the 1946 So6000 Triton, overheating and exploding. The plane only flew with a Rolls Royce Nene centrifugal turbojet.
The ATAR project took 6 years to produce the first acceptable axial-flow turbojet (ATAR 101 B1), produced in 1953. So eight years research & developments by the French using the German jet engines as the base. It was installed on the first French jet fighter, the Dassault Ouragan.
The French lost a lot of time because the German jets had poor efficiency with some concept fails. Essentially in the combustion chambers and fresh air circulation to reduce the external temperature of the engine. The BMW jet was known for overheat problems which precluded fuselage installation.
The question at the end of WW2 was what is the most efficient way to produce jet fighters. The answer is clearly not adopting the German design of engine and fuselage. The build costs for a jet engine were much higher than a piston engine, with the fuel consumption near 3x. The centrifugal compressor the British adopted in some planes was the best choice with 1944-45 technology, more compression pressure was not an advantage when the hot turbine was unable to resist higher temperatures. The German turbojets had big overheat problems as the engine would not work in an enclosed fuselage for single engined fighters. This defect was immediately noted by the French on the 1946 "SO 6000 Triton" prototype, and by the Soviets on the 1946 Mig 9. The Soviets quickly replaced the BMW 004B2 by the centrifugal Rolls Royce Nene which worked without problems, dismissing the BMW engine for fighter planes.
The Rolls Royce Nene was copied to the last nut by the USSR being installed in the Mig 15 being used effectively in the Korean war. About 10 years ago the USSR eventually paid royalties to Rolls Royce.
The Meteor was the first proper fully developed jet plane introduced. The 262 was slightly faster than the Meteor F3, but extremely unreliable. The British would never put into the sky such an undeveloped plane as the me262. the Me262 and Meteor were leagues apart in safety and reliability. The British could have had a jet fighter operational in 1941, but it would have been as bad as the me262.
The Germans advanced R&D on jets after they interrogated captured British RAF men. They learned the British were advanced in jet technology actually flying prototype planes. Until then the Germans had no intention of mass producing jet planes.
The rushed together Me262 started claiming kills on 26 July 1944. However the supposed kill was a Mosquito reconnaissance plane that had a fuselage cap blown off in a sharp fast manoeuvre, which flew on landing in Italy. The Meteor claimed its first V1 kill a few days later on the 4 August 1944. But the Meteor was a proper fully developed jet plane, not a thrown together desperate effort as the me262 was. The me262 fuselage was similar to a piston plane with the pilot over the wings obscuring downward vision, while the Meteor was a proper new design fuselage specifically for jet fighters with a forward of the wings pilot position with superior vision, as we see today. The cockpit was very quiet. The high tail was not to impede the rear jet thrust. The partial sweptback wings of the me262 were to move the engines further back for better weight distribution, not for aerodynamic reasons as is thought the case. The 262 balancing problem would be exasperated when firing the guns as the weight of the bullets exiting suddenly made the the air-frame unbalanced.
There were five turbojet engines in the UK under R&D in WW2:
♦ Centrifugal, by Whittle (Rover);
♦ Centrifugal, by Frank Halford (DeHaviland);
♦ Axial-flow, by Metro-Vick;
♦ Axial-flow by Griffiths (Rolls Royce);
♦ Axial flow compressor, with reverse flow combustion chambers. The ASX by Armstrong Siddley;
Metro-Vick sold their jet engine division to Armstrong Siddley. The Metro-Vick engine transpired into the post war Sapphire. Most American engines in the 1940s/50s were of UK design, many made under licence. The US licensed the J-42 (RR Nene) and J-48 (RR Tay), being virtually identical to the British engines. US aircraft used licensed British engines powering the: P-59, P-80, T-33, F9F Panther, F9F-6 Cougar, FJ Fury 3 and 4, Martin B-57 Canberra, F-94 Starfire, A4 Skyhawk and the A7 Corsair.
The US General Electric J-47 turbojet was developed by General Electric in conjunction with Metropolitan Vickers of the UK, who had already developed a nine-stage axial-flow compressor engine licensing the design to Allison in 1944 for the earlier J-35 engine, first flying in May 1948. The centrifugal Rolls Royce Nene is one of the highest production jet engines in history with over 50,000 built.
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@jb3960
The MIG 15 had a RR Nene jet engine. The Sabre was heavily influenced by the British who had a hand in the design. The Argentine post war jet was designed by the Germans which was a flop and very uninspiring.
The Germans were not years ahead in aviation. That accolade goes to the British,
The Germans went for the problematic, at the time, axial flow design. The British flew a Meteor with an axial-flow Metro-Vick engine in 1943 dropping it in favour of the reliable centrifugal design. There were five turbojet engines in the UK under R&D in WW2:
▪ Centrifugal, by Whittle (Rover);
▪ Centrifugal, by Frank Halford (DeHaviland);
▪ Axial-flow, by Metro-Vick;
▪ Axial-flow by Griffiths (Rolls Royce);
▪ Axial flow compressor, with reverse flow combustion chambers. The ASX by Armstrong Siddeley;
Metro-Vick sold their jet engine division to Armstrong Siddeley. The Metro-Vick engine transpired into the post war Sapphire. Most American engines in the 1940s/50s were of UK design, many made under licence. The US licensed the J-42 (RR Nene) and J-48 (RR Tay), being virtually identical to the British engines. US aircraft used licensed British engines powering the: P-59, P-80, T-33, F9F Panther, F9F-6 Cougar, FJ Fury 3 and 4, Martin B-57 Canberra, F-94 Starfire, A4 Skyhawk and the A7 Corsair.
The US General Electric J-47 turbojet was developed by General Electric in conjunction with Metropolitan Vickers of the UK, who had already developed a 9-stage axial-flow compressor engine licensing the design to Allison in 1944 for the earlier J-35 engine first flying in May 1948. The centrifugal Rolls Royce Nene is one of the highest production jet engines in history with over 50,000 built.
"The me262 was nothing but a bandaid rushed into production."
You got that right.
Swept wing designs were not new. British designer J. W. Dunne was the first to fly a stable swept wing plane.
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@brucetucker4847
You jest of course. The US contribution, although huge, although only right at the end with millions of green troops - it is overrated.
Britain was clearly key in WW2. Britain fought on every front, being in the war on the first day up to the last - the only country at the surrender of Japan in September 1945 to do so - Britain’s war actually ended in 1946 staying on in Viet Nam using Japanese troops alongside British troops to defeat the Viet Minh, but that is another story.
Britain was not attacked or attacked anyone, going into WW2 on principle. The Turkish ambassador to the UK stated that the UK can raise 40 million troops from its empire so it will win the war. This was noted by Franco who indirectly said to Hitler he would not win, fearing British occupation of Spanish islands and territory if Spain joined the war. Spain and Turkey stayed out of the war. The Turkish ambassador’s point was given credence when an army of 2.6 million was assembled in India that moved into Burma to wipe out the Japanese.
From day one the Royal Navy formed a ring around the Axis positioning ships from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Arctic off Norway, blockading the international trade of the Axis. This deprived the Axis of vital human and animal food, oil, rubber, metals, and other vital resources. By 1941 the successful Royal Navy blockade had confined the Italian navy to port due to lack of oil. By the autumn of 1941 Germany's surface fleet was confined to harbour, by the British fleet and the chronic lack of fuel. A potential German invasion from the USSR in the north into the oil rich Middle East entailed expanded British troop deployment to keep the Germans away from the oil fields, until they were defeated at Stalingrad.
Throughout 1942 British Commonwealth troops were fighting, or seriously expecting to be attacked, in:
▪ French North Africa;
▪ Libya;
▪ Egypt;
▪ Cyprus;
▪ Syria: where an airborne assault was expected, with preparations to reinforce Turkey if they were attacked;
▪ Madagascar: fighting the Vichy French to prevent them from inviting the Japanese in as they had done in Indochina;
▪ Iraq;
▪ Iran: the British & Soviets invaded Iran in August 1941.
Those spread-out covering troops were more in combined numbers than were facing Japan and Rommel in North Africa. They were supplied by a massive merchant fleet. They were supplied via the Cape, the equivalent of sailing halfway around the world.
Those spread-out covering troops were more in combined numbers than were facing Japan and Rommel in North Africa. The British Commonwealth fielded over 100 divisions in 1942 alone, compared to the US total of 88 by the end of the war. The Americans and Soviets were Johnny-come-late in WW2, moreso the Americans. Before the USSR entered the conflict the Royal Navy’s blockade had reduced the Italian and German surface navies to the occasional sorties because of a lack of oil, with the British attacking the Germans and Italians in North Africa, also securing Syria, Iraq, the Levant and ridding the Italians from East Africa.
The Germans were on the run by the time the USA had boots on the ground against the Axis.
The Germans had been stopped:
▪ in the west at the Battle of Britain in 1940;
▪ in the east at the Battle of Moscow in 1941. In which Britain provided 40% of the Soviet tanks.
The Germans were on the run after the simultaneous battles in late 1942 of:
▪ El Alemein;
▪ Stalingrad;
The Battle of El Alemein culminated in a quarter of a million Axis prisoners taken in Tunisia - more than taken at Stalingrad. Apart from the US Filipino forces that surrendered in early 1942, the US had a couple of divisions in Gaudalcanal after August 1942, and one in New Guinea by November 1942. In 1943 the US managed to get up to six divisions in the Pacific, but still not matching the British or British Indian armies respectively. Until late 1943 the Australian Army alone deployed more ground fighting troops against the Japanese than the USA.
The Americans never put more ground troops into combat against the Japanese at any point than just the British Indian Army alone, which was 2.6 million strong. The US had nowhere near 2.6 million men on the ground against the Japanese. The Soviets fielded about a million against the Japanese. Most Japanese troops were put out of action by the British and Soviets, not the USA. At the battles of Khohima and Imphal the Japanese suffered their worst defeat in their history up to that point - 60,000 Japanese were killed in hand to hand jungle fighting that made Iwo Jima look like a bar room brawl. Then the British set the armored Eastern and Pacific fleets against the Japanese, not far off in numbers to the rapidly expanded US fleet.
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@brucetucker4847
The tank that stood out in WW2, bedsides the Centurion, was the Churchill. The Churchill was the fastest tank of WW2 as few obstacles stopped it. It had amazing hill climbing ability and was able to cross the muddy ground and force through the forests of the Reichswald in 1944. A contemporary report expressed the belief that no other tank could have managed the same conditions. There is a story of a large queue of tanks waiting to cross a bridge over an anti-tank ditch. The Churchill simply drove into and out of the ditch, much to the other tanker’s amazement. The Churchill could keep going even if it had three wheels on the same side blown off.
The Churchill served not only in WW2 but many American Units were extremely glad of its amazing hill climbing ability in Korea when is could get to place Shermans and Pershings could not dream of.
It had a slow engine - two bus engines mated and laid flat (which did give a lower centre of gravity). No attempt was made to insert the RR Meteor engine. It was to be discontinued but performed well at El Alemein so was kept on. It was also the basis of the Hobart 'Funnies'.
In the fighting in late 1944 the Germans flooded an area so badly that resupply could only be carried out by using DUKW’s. Even the roads were impassable to trucks. Yet the 6th Guards tank brigade equipped with Churchill’s, fought and continued the advance. Apparently, Churchill’s crossed an underwater bridge on the Dneiper river, and operated without problem alongside T-34′s in a swamp.
It could turn on its own length thanks to the innovative Merrit-Brown transmission. It could climb mountains as they found in Tunisia as it had a long chassis which made climbing over obstacle and wide ditches easy. It was a highly versatile tank. During trials the Australians found it a better tank for jungle warfare than even the Matilda II.
The hill climbing ability of the Churchill is legendary. Many times in Italy and Tunisia the Churchill’s would climb hills the Germans thought were utterly tank proof. On one occasion a Colonel Koch of the Herman Goering regiment, transmitted this radio message:
“… been attacked by a mad tank battalion which had scaled impossible heights and forced me to withdraw!”
It had ridiculous amounts of armour, which was near inpenetrable except by the most powerful of guns. It had initially 102mm in front, which was then upgraded to 152mm for the later models. That is more than the Tiger I!
And its larger chassis also allows it to use larger turrets and subsequently larger guns such as the 6-pounder and the QF 75mm, which were the same guns used on the Cromwell. Churchill’s were adequately armed for the job they were meant to do. It was roomy by WW2 standards and the crews liked it. The 4th Grenadier Guards in Churchill’s were the unit that set the record for fastest advance of any armoured unit in Europe.
After WWII a study was carried out on all armoured units in the 21st army group. The 4th Grenadiers had the lowest casualty rate of all of them. There is a report from Italy of a single Churchill getting hit over 100 times by enemy AT weapons. There’s a report from Normandy where a Churchill crested a ridge line and an enemy ATG opened fire, the first round hit the Drivers periscope and concussed the Driver. The Germans then shot at it until darkness. The only effect was to shoot off the Churchill’s external fittings, then at nightfall the Crew were able to escape unharmed apart from headaches from the impacts of shells all day. The Churchill itself was recovered and repaired.
It was the best all round tank of the war, a tank generals would prefer in their arsenal, was probably the antiquated looking Churchill. As an army moves forward, tanks have to do a multitude of tasks. Tank v tank engagements were rare. No other tank accomplished the various tasks better and more comprehensively than the Churchill.
It was heavily armoured could match most tanks in the 6pdr gun version and with APDS ammunition could penetrate a Tiger. It could turn on its own axis and could even climb mountains, as it did in Tunisia. At Dieppe it was the only tank in the world that could get off those pebble beaches. And half got over the sea wall. Attributes that went un-noticed to the Germans.
After Dieppe the Germans tested a Panzer IV on a beach, and got the following results. To quote David Fletcher:
“This showed that on beaches with a slope between 15 and 20 degrees the German tank could manage quite well but where the slope increased to between 30 and 40 degrees the tank started to slip then dug itself in until the tracks ceased to function.”
The Beaches at Dieppe are made of surface called “Chert” which is lots of tiny stones. It’s like driving on ball bearings, and they get into the running gear and cause thrown tracks. But you won’t be able to dig yourself in. The Germans tested on a nice sandy beach. Despite the Chert at Dieppe 15 of the Churchill’s managed get across the beach and clamber over the seawall.
In the Battle of Longstop Hill, Tunisia, one of the German officers noted that when he saw the tanks coming over the summit, "I knew all was over".
Churchill tanks took out four Tigers in Tunisia, with no loss, only armed with 6-pdrs firing standard AP. They also got the first Panther kills by the western allies.
On D-Day the extreme western flank was La Hamel. The Germans had a huge fortress there, which withstood the assault. Although the British had got ashore the Fortress was dominating the beach. By the afternoon this position remained. If Gold Beach had failed then the Germans could roll up both landings from the flank with ease. The Fortress had been pounded by battleships and shrugged off their attentions. Then a single Churchill AVRE appeared. Its shots breached the walls allowing the capture of the fortress.
Churchills took Hill 309 in Normandy. Bocage was no problem to them. They moved into Caen supporting infantry.
An amazing tank.
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The Struggle for Europe by Chester Wilmot......
Fighter Command had been able to deal with such widespread and sustained attacks only because of radar, and yet on that very day in a special directive Göring declared: “It is doubtful whether there is any point in continuing the attacks on radar stations, since not one of those attacked has so far been put out of action.”
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Germans had discovered the chain of stations on the English coast, but they had no idea how sensitive and accurate the British equipment was. Their own experiments, especially during the occupation of Czechoslovakia, had brought little success, and their scientists, fondly believing themselves to be the best in the world, scoffed at the suggestion that the British might have discovered some secret which had eluded them. Yet their own sets were primitive by comparison and their demonstrations made so little impression on Göring, the C.-in-C. of the Luftwaffe, that they could obtain no special resources for research from Göring, the Director of the Four-Year Plan.
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Nor had German science produced any high-frequency radio-telephone suitable for use by fighters in action. The ground-to-air control system which the R.A.F. had brought to a high degree of efficiency by 1939, was not adopted by the Luftwaffe until two years later! In 1940 it was outclassed in scientific knowledge and equipment.
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It was only after the Battle of Britain had begun that the Germans discovered the extent of their handicap. During July, says Galland, “we realised that R.A.F. fighter formations must be controlled from the ground by some new procedure, because we heard commands skilfully and accurately directing Spitfires and Hurricanes on to German formations. We had no radio fighter control at the time...and no way of knowing what the British were doing with their forces as each battle progressed.
The British had:
1) Radio fighter control.
2) Radar (A type the Germans never knew existed).
3) Chain Home. All information directed to a central control: radar, air & ground observations.
Every German deviation and manoeuvre could be plotted by radar or spotted by the Observer Corps, traced and then projected on the map tables of the control rooms, then passed by fighter radio control to the squadrons in the air. It was a battle of chance and force by the Germans and one of science and skill by the British.
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