Comments by "Kim O\x27Brien" (@kimobrien.) on "Gay Wedding Cake Debate (PT. 3) | Andrew Seidel | LAW | Rubin Report" video.

  1. How about the separation of private business and religion? Government and business already work together. That's how the boss parties get their campaign funding.
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  2. We're talking bakeries not going to work near coke ovens. Different subject.
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  3. Masterpiece cakeshop is part of a broader assault on religious freedom being conducted by anti abortion, anti contraception, anti in vitro fertilization christian groups. In this case a boss pretends to be a worker. The idea being not to take on anything directly so much as to file court cases and proceed by punching holes in previous law to the achieve the desired political result. The women's movement has basically all but lost Roe v Wade by a combination of terrorism, clinic blockade tactics, legal maneuvering. The bankrupt direction of the leaders of the women's movement into the Democratic Party and trying to control the appointment of Supreme Court Justices has made this possible.
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  4. Forcing the shutdown of the Governor Lester Maddox D-GA Cafeteria did not result in the KKK forcing Bleck dry cleaners having to clean KKK robes. The 'free market' had about 100 years to fix the whites only Jim Crow separate but equal laws. KKK is not a protected class for purpose of public accommodation law nor is there a danger coming from reverse racism or reverse Christian bigotry. Unless you talking about the Masterpiece Cakeshop or Hobby Lobby.
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  5. Masterpiece cakeshop was given the option of having another worker without his religious objections or having a contractor make the same sex cakes. Jack Phillips as owner refused on principle. One might ask would he also not make a cake for a Jewish, Islamic, or Agnostic couple? Are those weddings sanctioned by his religious beliefs? The other question is can a for profit business just go ahead and make any decisions they want based upon religion? Should for profit companies be allowed to hire, fire, and promote based upon religious belief?
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  6. Look once you go beyond a being a single proprietor and incorporate than your in the same category as some of the biggest business' in the world. Also until recently society and the government did not recognize same sex marriage and in some states such relationships were illegal. At best the compromise would require him to facilitate the making of same sex marriage cakes. Hardly the case of putting a gun to his head and telling him make a cake or elses. Setting up a corporation requires you to abide by corporate law in return for the advantages one receives by incorporation. I understand why corporations would want to influence politics and some might want to be religion specific but this smacks of someone wanting his cake and being able eat it to.
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  7. The idea of operating a whites only business based upon religious belief was rejected long ago. How is that different for a business where your religion says you don't have to serve same sex weddings? From what I've read the guy in Oregon deserves a break because it seems that a Democratic Party politician wanted to make his career on crushing a family only business. He was never offered a compromise and the aggrieved asked only for $400 dollars while they were awarded $135,000. His law firm First Liberty seems to be genuinely concerned with religious liberty not forcing religion down everyone else's throat like the Alliance Defending Freedom.
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  8. I do understand the difference and so did the State of Colorado when they offered Masterpiece Cakeshop the option of having an employee without Jack Phillips views make the cakes or having an outside contractor do them. Phillips refused on principle and has lost every appeal since.
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  9. The problem with Englishmen and Canadians is you want to pretend that you live in a democracy or republic not a limited monarchy. We have a government set up as limited constitutional republic with a bill of rights. The reason you don't have that kind of government is because people like you are "sick and fucking tired".
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  10. We don't have a state Church like the Church of England. Instead we have a free exercise and establishment clause in our first amendment.
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  11. "Half of the descendants of those living in America today were digging up turnips or whatever in eastern Europe and were no more than vassals of whoever was in power at that time while we in Britain had a fully functioning democracy" Typical argument heard at an English dinner debate concerning the "White man's burden." In fact your democracy was working so well that 26 Counties of Ireland fought and left over lingual and religious persecution leaving you with a United Kingdom of England and Northern Ireland. Yes the US constitution was based in English law and the Magna carta was advanced for its time. However neither England or Canada have anything as radical as the US constitution and the Bill of rights. No where in the Constitution is God or an official language mentioned. Neither is there an escape clause of reasonableness included like in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. A clause in the original constitution forbids any religious test for any office. "...no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." The first amendment prevents Congress from prohibiting the free exercise of or establishing a religion. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
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  12. A business can put up a sign like that but it doesn't mean that lets them off the hook for public accommodation law. The purpose of those signs is to remind the customer that they are expected to be on good behaviour in the business if they expect to be served. Should a customer be acting up it allows a business employee to ask the customer to leave without getting into an argument about why they're being asked to leave.
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  13. That theory of 'natural selection' driving business didn't work in the past with regards to race. So American Apartheid was officially disbanded by public accommodation law. The Supreme court recognized in the 1968 in the Newman v. Piggy Park Enterprises decision that religion was not a valid defense to violation of the 1964 Civil Rights act. The movement engaged in public protests while also demanded government action to end the discriminatory practices. The laws came after the protests and the cultural shift against racism.
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  14. Under law what your religious views are will not be questioned. The Newman v. Piggy Park Enterprises case in 1968 says you can not use religion as a defense to violation of public accommodation law. Just because your interpretation of the Torah, Bible or Quran means this or that doesn't mean you get to do this or that. A line must be drawn on one side is religious freedom on the other side is religious tyranny.
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  15. It s a case also of a Boss wanting to use his business as a way to force his religion views down other people's throats.
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  16. John Lewis With this, if this and that, then this. I'm not a Democrat so I don't sign on in lock step with whatever they are doing. I didn't sign on to overturning Citizens United by gutting the 1st Amendment either. There wouldn't be any "left wing nonsense" if he had just baked the cake or agreed to the compromise. You want a further extension of corporate power based in religion I don't.
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  17. Rendell Porter Once it gets the the Supreme Court there is no more shopping for judges.
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  18. The actor is a worker and in the Oregon case that also appears to be the case where husband and wife are not employing labor. In the Masterpiece cakeshop the cake shop is an employer.
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  19. The actor is a worker so they can quit at anytime. If Cakes By Melissa is just a married couple then they are just a married couple who own their own tools much like a couple who own their own rig and a drive truck as team drivers so they also should be able to refuse service for any reason. Masterpiece cakeshop is clearly an employer so no they must serve all comers under the public accommodation law. To rule otherwise is to allow corporations of all sizes to use religion as a defense to violation of public accommodation law.
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  20. We don't know what the couple would want designed on the cake since he stopped and refused to make any bake goods that would celebrate same sex weddings. So even an anniversary cake would fall victim under his way of doing things. He has been arguing that cakes are speech. What about mashed potatoes or a green bean salad. Have the American Nazi's sued for Hitler cakes or the KKK requested KKK cakes? How are they protected by law? Did he post signs saying he refuses to make same sex wedding cakes after all this wasn't the first time he said no? Did he post in his shop that he is serving Christ or God? No of course not because he knows that to post things like that would drive away business from customers who aren't gay or Christian. He would rather hide his views on same sex wedding cakes rather than risk losing business for posting something like that nor has he asked that he be allowed to do that and his friend at the Trump administration the US Solicitor general has said they would not approve of that.
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  21. Jack Phillips is the cake shop manager so he could contract out all the samesex wedding cakes or have an employee without his views make all the same sex wedding cakes. So why does he refuse to do a perfectly possible compromise? It is obvious he wants to make it as difficult as possible for the couple to exercise their rights to service without religious discrimination. His goal is religious tyranny not religious freedom.
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  22. The actress is not a company. Public accommodation law says the cake shop company cannot refuse service based upon sexual ordination. If it was a private company not open to the general public serving only certain churches then the cake shop would be exempt. Public accommodation law has been before the Supreme court before and found constitutional despite Piggy Park Enterprises claiming an exception based upon religious views overriding the federal 1964 civil rights act. You brought up the Hitler cake so its up to you to explain how Hitler cakes or KKK cakes fit into this. In fact why don't you go order a Hitler cake and come back and tell us how it all worked out.
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  23. Jack Phillips basic freedom is not being infringed upon since he personally doesn't have to make the cake. To allow for profit corporations that operated in the public to claim a religion when not specifically organized for religious purposes is religious tyranny. We've already seen this in the Hobby Lobby case where the court majority ignored the religious right not to be a conservative Christian and the health needs of the 100's of female employees for the religious rights of a few corporate owners.
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  24. Their is a difference between an artist and an artisan. But by immediately refusing there is no doubt the the refusal was based upon sexual orientation not a lack of artistic inspiration.
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  25. He like Hobby lobby is claiming a right to use religion by for purpose of expanding the rights of private property owners over those without nor is it a special situation where the tools are operated by the owner without the hiring of wage labor. All any thinking worker needs to know is this: These facts make it just another example of boss tyranny pure and simple. The right of the bosses to use religion as an excuse for their decisions was rightly rejected a long time ago.
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  26. I suppose if you've never needed to work to pay your bills and been over lorded by a boss that wants more out of you for less you probably wouldn't understand.
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  27. Some can only crawl on their bellies and accept boss tyranny others don't. The effect of the Burwell v. Hobby Lobby was to strip Hobby Lobby's 100's of female workers of safe and effective birth control methods from their inclusion in any Obama care healthcare plan for Hobby Lobby workers. Just like Masterpiece Cakeshop it is all based upon boss rights to set up a for profit corporation and then claim it is a way to worship god.
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  28. Looking at it from a Communist view the boss class wants to discriminate against all working people based upon their sexual identity. Its clear that this is what he wants because he refused any compromise such as training other workers to do the job or contracting out his gay wedding cake business.
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  29. Right private lives were not the object of ending segregation. However public accommodations are not considered private when business is open to the public and they were also the subject of desgration that required government intervention in business because so called free market capitalism doesn't use invisible hands. It's just as foolish as those who think prices are set by supply and demand over being set by the labor power need to make them or do the job. Supply and demand seldom sets prices.
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  30. Before the civil rights movement Black people traveling for either their job or pleasure out of town bought a book called the green book so they would know where the could stop for gas, morels and restaurants. Even in Springfield, MA Friendly's Ice cream restaurant would allow black kids to sit but would not wait on them.
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  31. Price of production is determined by labor time multiplied the labor rate. Cost of production is determined by wages paid for the time used to produce. They don't raise or lower the cost of an oil change by the dealer checking on how much oil he has on hand. Same goes for the price of gas. When the gas truck shows up at the gas station they don't lower the price of gas or raise it in the morning or lower it at night or on Sundays. Same goes for getting your car fixed or bidding on a construction job. When you get your car fixed the figure the labor time by estimate and then multiply by labor rate then add the cost of parts. It has almost nothing to do with anything else. If they can't get the part or fix it some other way they don't do the job if they have lots of parts they don't low the price. The worker gets his wage paid by the estimate time times his wage rate. Only with monopolies or a production price that can't be justified in the market does supply and demand come in. The worker must be paid a wage so that he comes back to work the next day and not a penny less.
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  32. Discovery of ignorance always come first, protests against ignorance comes next, government action defending ignorance comes forth, then government action against ignorance next, lastly ignorance dies off. It's a never ending human process (dialectical materialism) now connected to capitalism and its class divisions.
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