Comments by "Emanon" (@Emanon...) on "Is Putin Right About Nato's Eastward Expansion? - TLDR News" video.

The Russians, line the Chinese, are a proud people. Maybe if we in the West had been more benevolent right after the fall of the USSR, we would have gained an ally such as Germany, Italy and Japan after WW II. Instead, people resort to this language of humiliation and offense. As a Scandinavian, I too could suggest that Slovakia has contributed absolutely nothing to the EU (which is a fact, as Slovakia is a net negative contributor to the EU budget) except, made us more beholden to authoritarianism, corrupt corporate interests and racially motivated migration policies. Hurtful language that doesn't exactly motivate friendship and cooperation, no?
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I'll be a dissenting voice her. You yourself admit that Finland's "historic memory" is part of the reason for joining NATO. Is it then far fetched that the Russians has a similar "historic memory" of repeated aggression from its western neighbours? Nuance matters.
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@stephenconway2468 I agree. It was merely in the context of the OPs reasoning for NATO. Essentially Russia has ensured a self-fulfilling prophecy with their foolish and blatant aggression since 2008. But for nuance, we need to also remember the numerous occasions of aggression and civilian casualties and misery unleashed by the US and their buddies.
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@stephenconway2468 Again I completely agree with regards to Finland and the estimation of the threat from Russia today. But a country that essentially seeks neutrality should avoid association with entangled and/or conflict prone allies such as the US and Turkey. And perhaps we should all have learned the lesson of humiliating and exploiting an enemy after defeat always comes back to bite you in the ass. Russia could have been an ally and key player had the West only sought to include them and support their nascent institutions and reforms after the fall of the USSR.
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@stephenconway2468 I see your point, and I'm not defending Russia's aggression or desperate threats with using nuclear weapons. But there has always been a middle road with neutral nations guaranteed by larger nations ie Belgium 1914-1945 or the ambiguous security treaty with the US and Taiwan. Finally, and this is an important point, both Russia and Ukraine has publicly mentioned that there's room for discussion to reach an agreement that essentially goes back to the ante bellum status quo. This has had very little coverage by the media because they are too busy creating the narrative of "David Vs Goliath" rather than factually reporting the events. Russia and its people are not wholesale villains and the Ukrainians are being taken hostage in the propaganda narrative of the West against Russia. Again, I'm no friend of Putin's Russia, but we're all obliged to take a step back and calmly analyze the facts instead of jumping on the jingo band wagon.
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@goperoful Well, Poland, Hungary and Turkey have all gone the road of the "strongman" too. At least for now. Jury's still out on the US the next few elections. I see your point about a belligerent Russia, however. What if we had gone a different direction and Russia had also become a member of NATO? All their security worries and strategic considerations in Europe would have immediately evaporated. If other barely democratic countries can join, I see no reason why Russia wasn't welcomed in 20-25 years ago, while there was a possibility for implementing positive change.
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@goperoful Oh, I'm not sure either. I think we agree on the broad strokes, and "what is" are by very definition conjecture. But thanks for entertaining other perspectives. It's far too often lost in the very black and white narrative that many media outlets are "reporting" (creating).
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@MrTaxiRob I sincerely hope that a peaceful revolt will result in better conditions for the Russian people. Gods know they've suffered enough throughout history. The current Polish and Hungarian govt's are essentially trying to follow the Erdogan/Putin model, and painting the EU as an adversary, much as the right wing in the UK did under Brexit. Sure, Hungary and Poland got the shaft historically by their neighbours, but I can't say I'm not worried about having a pro-authoritarian reactionary fifth column in the heart of the EU. Especially considering that no two countries have benefitted (in net economic transfers) more from the EU. And Poles being the single largest expat group compared to population. What a bunch of fucking hypocrites and leeches.
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@goperoful With regards to opening up Russia after the USSR, this exact pouring of investments leading to klepto-capitalism, empowering influential people of power and organized crime is exactly what lead to the devolvement of any semblance of rule of law in Russia in the 90's. And then they elected a "strongman" to implement order. My father, a wise man, warned about this when I was a kid. Unfortunately there was just to much corporate money to be made to give a damn about securing a foundation of robust civil institutions and hearing the plight of the average Russian. It really all adds up, hindsight being 20/20 of course
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@Leo the Anglo-Filipino You'll have to be more specific in your comment. What do you disagree with? And what does Brexit have to do with it? Last I checked the UK was lock, stock and erect cock behind any NATO initiative, especially if its presented by the US.
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@kevinfishenden You're basing your knowledge of Ukrainian refugees on what exactly? And did you hold the same opinion when we in 2016 were talking about other groups of refugee nationals? Poland, Hungary and Slovakia certainly didn't, and the EU at large certainly didn't.
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@kevinfishenden You didn't answer my question. Not that I expected it. I'll answer for you: You're treating people with the same plight and needs differently solely based on nationality/ethnicity/culture/religion and/or skin colour. There's a word for that. I believe you know it.
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@MrTaxiRob I can emphatise (not sure if that's correctly spelled) with your sentiment. However being a "historic bulwark" is as much an empty rhetoric as the current Russian point of Ukraine being "the cradle of Russian civilization". Or a 1900 year old claim by Israel for annexing the rest of Palestine based on the writings in a old book and the sayings of lunatics with curly sideburns. The Hungarians and Poles have suffered far more, and recently, under the yoke of fellow Europeans and especially fellow Slavs ie the Soviets. It speaks to mentality, sure, but that mentality is nonetheless indefensible compared to our modern liberal values and, I dare say, sheer decency toward our fellow human beings . It's somewhat idealistic and naive, I know, but to be so boldly confronted with outright hypocrisy, that they're not even trying to disguise it is offensive. And as I asked the other dude, how much do we know about the average Ukrainian? Are they less prone to homo-phobia, misogyny and xenophobia as their Russian brethren? I hope so.
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@MrTaxiRob I know I might seem somewhat pedantic in my rhetoric, and thanks for having the patience to politely engage. You're not wrong in anything you've mentioned per se, let me make that clear. But seeing nuance and having the ability to discern the facts from talking points and, just as importantly, having the ability to compare our own very recent sins with other nations' actions is important. Otherwise, we're all fucking hypocrites and our talk of humanitarianism and liberal democratic values is just that. Talk.
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@rembrandtshadows Me no reado cyrilico, taverish.
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@kevinfishenden And yet you never deigned to reply directly why Ukrainian refugees deserve that much more help and sympathy, as is evident by the media reporting, compared to many other groups of people. Brexit was (falsely) predicated partly on controlling "the migrant hordes" so maybe your rural cousins aren't as tolerant and open-minded as you are? You and your community is the perfect example of why we should desist in this hypocrisy of treating refugees differently based on well... Fear and bigotry.
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@kevinfishenden It wasn't. And I'm not trying to diminish the plight of the Ukrainian people. I just find it quite disgusting how the media narrative and politicians have nothing but care and concern for Ukrainian refugees of war, and conversely using people with similar plight (but are "different". Go figure) as a political tool to further a narrative and/or agenda. I've asked you directly and alluded to you evading my question 3 times now. This is pointless. I'll let you have the final word on this matter. Ps: Britain is no where near the most diverse country in the world. Maybe London as a city, but that's not representing the UK as a whole last I checked...
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@MrTaxiRob I don't believe that the ability to identify demagoguery, hypocrisy or bigotry is self-loathing. Imho It should be in the 101 course for any citizen that want substance over form in their politicians in a democracy. In this case, ignorance might be bliss, but that's only because someone else might be paying the price. Anyway, I think I've said what I wanted to convey. Thanks for being a polite sounding board. Not a given these days. Cheers
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@MrTaxiRob Maybe you are ignorant and/or a hypocrite. Or maybe you are ruled by ignorant opportunists or hypocrites (more likely). Or perhaps none of the above. That's for you to decide. I've merely pointed out some harsh truths, truths that I've experienced on my own body, family and people. And then we came to the West and were taught about all these important values and principles, which I have taken to heart. Guess what: They're not values or principles if you can set them aside when it's convenient or if they only apply to a certain group of people. Happy sunday
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@wilhelmu "Shitholemenistan" pretty much sums up your world view, mate. Just a few remarks, and then I'll leave you to it: 1) Poland and Hungary are the greatest beneficiaries of the EU. They are the largest net negative contributors to the EU. In other words, if other Europeans, who had nothing in common with you, hadn't come along and aided you when you yourselves were "shitholegrads", you'd be God knows where by now... 2) The countries that received 0 refugees during the crisis, and could have helped their European neighbours in Greece, Spain and Italy, CHOSE to contribute absolutely nothing. No funds, no resources and definitely no tolerance or hospitality. Never mind refugees, you've made that clear, but where the fuck was your solidarity for fellow Europeans back then? 3) Ironically, these same countries, especially Poland, have among the highest rates of migrant nationals living and working in other countries ie Germany, France, UK and Scandinavia. Hmmm. Interesting. 4) The Visegrad clique in recent years have been among the most vocal critics of the EU, and in certain cases have themselves try to implement Erdogan/Putin style autocratic measures to consolidate power in direct contradiction with EU settled law. 5) This is the most important part. I'm all for aid to the Ukraine, and it's not feasible for any country to simply open their borders. We can agree on that, I assume. However, when general laws and charters that should apply equally only apply for a certain ethnicity, religion, culture or skin colour... Yeah, there's a very accurate word for that. 6) Some of the largest group of refugees recent years were directly caused by US + allies, including Poland. To put it in simple terms: If you're part of the problem, you should strive to be part of the solution.
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@wilhelmu The PLC was first and foremost Polish, then Lithuanian and actively tried to "polonize" Ruthenian cultures and religion. A matter of historic pride for Poland is nothing more than a painful chapter for what is today Ukraine - that happened 250 years ago. Get over it. That you or yours don't know a location, really shouldn't be the test for moral or ethical standpoints, mate. Most people can't find Taiwan or Hong Kong on a map either. Doesn't mean it's unimportant or wouldn't affect you, your community or country.
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@wilhelmu You don't care, that's up to you. I've merely shown you the proven hypocrisy of Poland and its leeching off of the rest of us in Europe. While I might not have convinced you of anything, I'd expect a shred of humility and decency, at the very least. Too much to hope for, I see. You've drunk to much from the well of PiS. Pun intended.
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