Comments by "Emanon" (@Emanon...) on "CaspianReport"
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Yeah, that's a shit argument.
First of all, you can use the correct name. Persia is the Greek name for your lands.
If Persian empires were so stable, why the fuck did you have so many of them? And dynastic stuggles within at almost every turn? With regards to the diaspora - how much of their Fars heritage have been kept? Not much, brother...
I honestly don't care about Islam in Iran. But to solely blame a foreign invader 1400 years ago is a bit much, no? Just like Christians blaming Jews for Christ or Muslims blaming the Crusades....
And what about the Mongols? The Timurids? The Mughals then?
I've met a lot of Iranians who, first of all, say they are "Persian" and secondly, simply don't know their own history. Be critical, thats fine.
But stop inciting religious or racial bigotry by claiming that your culture was "oh so superior back then" and solely putting the blame on others.
Why the fuck did you lose in only a couple of years, if you were so magnificent and stable and bla bla bla ? Huh? Why were your people converted so easily in a few generations?
Btw: I say the same to the Arabs who blame their decline on the Crusades, the Mongol invasions, and the Turks. And to the Jews about the destruction of their temple and their enslavement in Babylon.
Get. Over. It.
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Know your history, my brother.
The Arab empires 700-1100 (the decline coinciding with the rise of Al Ghazali), and in some case until the 12-1300's were beacons of learning, tolerance, debate and knowledge - From Andalusia to Sicily to Delhi.
They certainly weren't perfect, but compared to middle age Europe life was not bad...
If Islam was so "barbaric" how did it spread through trade and diplomacy to East Africa and Indonesia?
From a historic stand point I'm sorry that there isn't more left of the great Persian civilizations. But to put them on a piedestal and assume everything was fantastic is simply factually wrong.
The huge problem with Islam today, IMHO, is not the religion itself. Religion is malleable to the culture and will of its people. Just like ideology and technology.
It's the general exploitation and lack of education during and after the colonial and ottoman eras that really put a hurt on these vastly different regions - which they are yet to recover from.
Conservative Islam ie. Saudi Arabia and Iran are largely a nationalistic response in the aftermath of the colonial era. Where Europe used Fascism and Communism, the larger middle east chose to revive a conservative view of their religions - and replace it or their culture in some instances.
I see your points, but your views are sorely lacking the nuance of the factual historic events.
I'm guessing you are the sort that thinks "Religion is the root to all evil", am I right?
Again, that's an easy one-liner statement, that shows a blatant ignorance of history, culture and societies in general. Lastly: Arabs are not only Islam, Islam is not only Arabs, though they each play a major part in each others history.
And please refrain from openly racist language in the future. It's plainly hurtful and no way conducive to a proper discussion
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@MimOzanTamamogullar
I'll try to answer succinctly:
1) Who were the main terror groups during the British mandate and what were the death tolls?
Irgun, Haganah, Stern. Stern even cooperating with fascists during WW2 to arm themselves and commit further atrocities.
During the mandate 1917-1948 450 Jews were killed and around 4500 Palestinians.
And bombing British officers and civilians.
2) The only attack that Israel faced was in 1948 after the Arab nations repeatedly and profusely warned about the consequences of handing over land to a people that have no legal rights to it. The Western powers were fully aware of this and the risk of Jews being killed, yet took the decision anyway.
And the result was atrocities, ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and seizure of 26% of Palestine, which is illegal under international law.
Let's take the other wars:
1956 - A plot by Israel, France and the UK to seize the Suez. Go figure.
1967 - A "pre-emptive" strike as told by Israel. The fact that the Arabs were so unprepared tells you that they had no intentions of an attack.
Israel occupies the Golan, Sinai and the Palestinian territories.
1973 - An attack by Egypt, but fully within international law as Israel held rightful Egyptian territory.
3) "What would I do?"
Plenty of things I wouldn't do
Not lie about the horrible events.
For example:
-There were no beheaded babies.
-No pregnant women disembowelled (Israelis did that in Lebanon 1982).
-No babies in ovens (Israelis did that in Deir Yassin in 1948).
-Not a single photo evidence of mass rape at a festival with thousands of people.
-No "HQ" under the Al Shifa Hospital. (Not that it matters because they bombed them all now and still found nothing)
*NOT CUT FOOD, WATER AND MEDICINE TO CIVILIANS!
NOT BOMB SCHOOLS, HOSPITALS, MOSQUES, HOMES!*
How about that?
Why didn't Israel evacuate civilians to camps in the Negev desert?
Instead they've killed 30.000+, further 20.000+ presumed dead (Israeli figures) and hundreds of thousands about to die from famine and disease.
In conclusion:
The fact that you present this as an attack on Israel and not a direct result of 75 years of occupation, land theft, apartheid and killings shows me that you haven't paid attention, or have willingly followed the Israeli narrative.
Israel has almost yearly bombed Gaza and killed hundreds or thousands. More than 400 Palestinians have been murdered in the West Bank. Are they Hamas "Human Shields" too?
Secondly, do you in any way try to defend the illegality of the above? How about the clear war crimes that Israel have committed? The fact that the ICJ has deemed it justified to continue with a case of genocide?
There is so much overwhelming evidence to everything I've written here, that I'm not going to bother with sources. Look it up yourself. Take responsibility if you want to tell yourself that you're on the right side of history. Or perhaps try switching the channel and hearing the news from someone other than people feeding you Hasbara crap with a shovel.
"If it's from the Israeli/UK/US government or Israeli military, it's a lie."
That's my advice to you.
PS: Sorry. It wasn't as short a post as I had hoped.
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Ah the classic anti-semite argument for criticizing Israel. Except I have jewish friends, and we both hate Israel. It's about human dignity and ultimately what is right.
"Fair and square", okay, if you say so. So you're arguing "right by conquest"?
That means, I guess, if another powerful nation invaded Israel and deported every single Israeli, that it would be perfectly fine, right?
You've just legitimized the destruction of Israel to all it's enemies. Just your own logic.
That's why we have agreed on international rules. They are not always followed, I grant you that, but Israel is among the top contenders for international violations. And no, you're not a democracy if you have a privileged class based on ethnicity, a 2nd class minority and 3rd class citizens with no rights whatsoever in illegally occupied land.
I think the only dumb thing is your lack of historical knowledge. The Philistines were there back then too, buddy. Who do you think the Israelites were fighting back then?
But if you want to open the "historic" can of worms, that means that 2/3 of you should return to Europe and Russia. You're not semites. You're not Israelites. You're "just" Jews. Big difference. If you don't believe me, do a 23 & Me if you're a "European" Israeli. I fucking dare you.
PS: I before you get your yamukkah and curls all spinning, I have no love for Egypt, Syria, Saudis, Iran and UAE too. I'm not biased in my criticism of injustice and human rights abuse. I hope one day you can see that it's not because you're jewish or from Israel. I'm calling you out because your policies are the policies of racism and supremacy.
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You really don't grasp the idea of discussion, do you? I'm showing you examples of how ridiculous your points are. Guess that military training really washes away your imagination and critical thinking, ehh SteinBergBaumGoldRubin?
Funny you should bring up the Geneva Convention - which is about protecting civilians in engagements - not rules of diplomacy.
How many times just this week has Israel broken the Geneva convention? "Butterfly" rounds, Journalists, Medical personnel, Protesting families getting killed... Annexation is illegal by international law. eg. Crimea. Period.
Palestinians (Why do you keep calling them Arabs?) are discriminated against and receive way less public funding in their areas in Israel. Look up what neutral observers and NGO's have said.
I wouldn't trust a single word from Bibi if I were you... And, yes I have been to Israel, Gaza and the West Bank, seen it for myself, and spoken to numerous people.
The Germany thing was an example of your ridiculous reasoning. If jewish is not about blood, how come then, that african jews are treated so poorly in Israel? Can I get Israeli citizenship if I convert then? If so how can you prove that I actually believe in Judaism?
My point is not that you would win a war. You would 100%, especially if Daddy US is coming to your help everytime.
But how long do you think that a country of 10 million will remain a regional superpower against larger neighbours? Wouldn't it be better to seek a compromise peace now and start living, toelrating and trading? I'm saying this because the current policies are sacrificing the future of Israel for political and territorial gains today.
Good luck. As of right now you're showing the world what you are: An arrogant and supremacist people that views other lives as worth less than your own.
One more thing: You people are the most obnoxious travellers in the world. Tell your friends, talk to them. But I guess it's difficult to change if you believe you're better than everyone else and at the same time every one is out to get you... As I said, good luck.
PS: "Eurofags" hahaha... So are you part of Europe or not? Calling me a Fag while having the gay capital of Tel Aviv seems a bit much, no? Again, ease up on the "soap in the shower" military thinking, bro...
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Golan: (from Wiki)
Israeli settlement activity began in the 1970s. The area was governed by military administration until 1981 when Israel passed the Golan Heights Law, which extended Israeli law and administration throughout the territory.[11] This move was condemned by the United Nations Security Council in UN Resolution 497,[2][12] although Israel states it has a right to retain the area, citing the text of UN Resolution 242, adopted after the Six-Day War, which calls for "safe and recognised boundaries free from threats or acts of force".[13] The continued Israeli control of the Golan Heights remains highly contested and is still regarded as belligerent occupation by most countries . The international community rejects the validity of the Golan Heights Law as an attempted annexation by force, illegal under the UN Charter and the Geneva Conventions .[165] Israeli settlements and human rights policy in the occupied territory have also drawn criticism from the UN.[166][167]
You were saying? And that's just from the top of my head, not even quoting international law directly.
And if you "don't want" Gaza and the West Bank - get the fuck out, let them be, and take all the settlers with you...
No? Why not?
And here we go again with the "jew-hater". Might I then imply that you hate Arabs and Muslims? And Christians? And black people? And Arabic jews?
I criticize Israel, not Jews or Judaism. Not even the same thing. I couldn't care less about Judaism...
Final point: If 95% of the world population hates you, might it be, _just maybe_, that it's because you're a bunch of arrogant and racist assholes?
I'll be waiting with the "I told you so" in about 30 years. Unfortunately.
Until then, enjoy your apartheid society.
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Resolution 242:
(i) Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."[4]
This was back when the US didn't blindly support Israeli actions.
Oslo Accords 1993: Full recognition of Israel and a road map to establishing a Palestinian state - Which have been denied the Palestinians on every turn.
Yes, they shouldn't accept a peace when the terms with regards to borders and Jerusalem are constantly changed by Israel.
The withdrawal from Gaza? Yeah, 20.000 settlers pulled out. And 100.000 settlers moved in to East Jerusalem. Seems legit, right?
Hamas are terrorists. And they are a problem. But so is the Israeli blockade denying people medication, fuel and ability to rebuild and access pure water. It's collective punishment of a civilian population, which is a direct violation of the Geneva convention that you hold so dear.
Killing journalists, medical personnel, civilians that were "a threat" from 300-600 meters distance? Arrests with no rights or legal protections? Using illegal rounds to cause maximum damage? White phosporous and cluster munitions used over civilian areas?
My friend, I've read the NGO reports. You should do the same.
As I said, you seem somewhat reasonable, but the language in Israel about Palestinians (which you don't even recognize as a people and nation) is directly opposite to what you say and think. It is a war of racial supremacy for Israel. Why else would you insitute a bill with this wording:
- "The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people."
- "The capital of the state: Jerusalem, complete and united, is the capital of Israel."
- "Jewish settlement: The state views the development of Jewish settlement as a national value and will act to encourage and promote its establishment and consolidation."
This law contradicts everything you just said with regards to an intent of peace.
I have said my part.
PS: Fuck Koh Phan Ngan, indeed...
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@Critical G:
Yet another repeated cliche that the zionists and conservatives in the US want you to swallow whole. And "Israel have the right to defend itself", right?
And every one who criticizes them "are antisemites", right? Oh please, just read up on the history of the region the last 28 years. You'll quickly see who have dealt in bad faith and reneged on every treaty (hint: It's Israel...)
Israel does exist. Palestine doesn't. Israel is an occupying country and trampling on a daily basis on Palestinian rights to property, liberty and yes, life.
Read a couple of UN reports and corroborated witness accounts from NGO's. Heck, just watch news that isn't American or British.
According to Israels actions, the Palestinians have no right to exist. There is nothing pointing to the contrary. Especially after the announcement that the "jewishness of the state" is to be preserved and that the West Bank apparently is manifest destiny from God himself. Who cares about the natives, right?
Remind you of anyone, my brother?
Lastly, you're confusing Judaism with the zionist policies of Israel. A lot of people do that. These two things are not mutually inclusive. They often do the same with Islam and Palestinians (even though 20% are christian).
Just like not all Palestinians support Hamas or support terror, not all Jews support Israel or support Israeli terrorism.
But yes, when it comes to international law, international conventions, human rights, broken treaties, UN resolutions, and just a goddamn poll in almost every single country - Israeli policy the last 30 years have turned Israel into a criminal state and a rogue element with regards to stability in the ME.
We'll see how you feel when AIPAC pushes for an invasion of Iran and thousands of American lives are lost...
You're on the wrong side of history. South Africa. Jim Crow. Nurnberg laws. Israel.
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1) Lets entirely forget the Irgun and Haganah terror before the state of Israel. Conquest does not legitimize your claim.
By your own argument, if Israel starts a war its then perfectly fine to deport and/or ethnically cleanse all Israelis? I think you just made the argument for everyone who actually wants to wipe out Israel. Own goal, brother. Own goal.
2) They didn't then, true. Because by a stroke of a pen their land was taken from them, and they were never represented or included in the process.
I would do the same if someone told me that a family was moving into my home without my consent. Everyone would do that.
3-4) Hamas are not in any way popular in Gaza. They lost the peoples support. Good.
People are denied medicine, fuel and building materials. Toys, wheelchairs, medical equipment, power cables... It's a concentration camp. Period.
Children and elderly are dying from curable diseases because the medicine is not allowed. How "humane" of Israel...
If Hamas weren't actively targeting civilians ie. terrorists, I would support their policies too. Don't give an inch to Israel, because they never uphold their deals.
Furthermore Netanyahu uses Gaza for political gains. Every single time there is a case of corruption or a scandal in his cabinet, guess what? Gaza gets bombed. Seems legit, right?
5) Again, you're confusing Muslims, Arabs and Palestinians.
Israeli uses the last 70 years of conflict to justify the last 30 years of atrocities.
Lastly, If you use the Holocaust as an argument while defending Israeli policies, I'm sorry dude, you lost the moral argument. Also ask the few Holocaust survivors about how you're treating other human beings. Ask them.
Israel is an oppressive occupying country. The blockade of Gaza is a crime against humanity. These are not controversies. Facts.
No one believes your propaganda anymore, dude.
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mor19:
I've been to the West Bank and Gaza. I've worked there as a med. student and later as a an MD for MSF. And I've been to Israel too. And met Israeli travellers in Asia (which are btw the most obnoxious people you will ever meet...)
So kindly, I know what I am talking about, and contrary to you I haven't been brainwashed by state media, nationalism, zionism and military service.
With the regards to "the Arab" (still won't recognize them as a people, I see), what the fuck has that to do with anything? I can on the top of my head mention 10 cases of killings, abuse and forceful evictions, just the last week - if thats the game you want to play.
You have to ask yourself:
Will Israel always be strong enough to not be destroyed by it's neighbours? The answer is no.
Wouldn't it be better then, to have a fair and compromise peace and start trading and living next to each other?
If France and Germany can do it, Denmark and Sweden can do it, Bosnia and Serbia can do it, then surely Israel and its neighbours can do it.
Having said that:
Until you stop building settlements, seize land, limit access to water, deny civil rights and commit killings with no accountability, then I'm afraid Israel has no legitimacy in my book. And yes, Egypt, Saudis and Syria is also hugely fucked up. It doesn't make your country less criminal.
Democracy by a privileged group and by law 2nd class citizens, is not a legitimate democracy.
You have yet to answer any of the questions with the regards to the illegality of Israeli actions in international law.
Blah blah poor poor Israelis... Cry me a river. You have nukes and a strong military. You can have a peace with Palestine if you want to. Easily.
See you in about 30 years when Israel is isolated, reviled and every jew elsewhere pays the price for it. I'm afraid that your children will also pay the price for the crimes of your country today
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Well, there we disagree strongly.
Firt of all, your views on "honor killing, female genital mutilation, polygamy etc." is uninformed about how people actually live their lives around the globe.
You see people as "barbarians" who are from other areas. I see them as human beings who've had a shit draw in life. On a perfect planet Earth, yes, we would have no borders. That's not the case, however.
While having strong immigration laws is fine, denying refugees of war, no matter the cost, is for me "barbaric and medieval".
And no, London is still pretty white. You are factually wrong. Look it up.
It's not a zero sum game. But I digress.
My point is that there is a short way from nationalism to policies that limit civil liberties even in Eastern Europe, and that is due to the lack of information & general education in the populace.
Respectfully, even you have demonstrated on severel occasions a lacking knowledge in areas yet a very strong belief in your views despite of that. That's part of the problem imo.
While I dont' disagree that culture and nationality plays a major part, the greatest hindrance to democratization is abject poverty, lack of education and lack of opportunity.
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Stnl N2:
1) London:
You are correct about the statistical data. What it doesn't say in the first 4-5 lines however are number of "new" immigrants ie. 1st or 2nd generation. That number is 23%, Which is still a large number, yes, but the majority are British of British (UK and Commonwealth), African and Indian descent.
To consider Caribbeans, Africans and Indians that came to England 100-200 years ago as foreigners is a gross misrepresentation of what is defined as British.
Secondly are the 2 mio. (recent) Polish migrants in the EU also to be considered "diluting" the national culture?
2) Islam:
Of course I concede to that. I'm not here to "win" arguments, dude.
A youtube video is nice, just be careful with the source and the underlying agenda. Haven't seen the video, I'll just take your word for it. But honestly I'm tired of loose quotes and discussions out of context on Islam.
Yes. Sex Slavery was a part of Islam in wartime 12-1300 years ago. To some (ISIS, Boko Haram, Al Shabab) it still is. That doesn't mean that the large part of muslims tolerate this - especially their wife ;)
Islam (and christianity, judaism, buddhism etc..) like technology, is a tool in your daily life. You can use it to advocate slavery and murder of infidels. And you can use it to advocate charity, peace and tolerance.
Right now, it seems the fucked up guys down there are using it for oppression of women, trampling the rights of the poor and for advocating wars. *Sigh*
I'm gonna have a drink...
Just keep an open mind and take care.
Cheers
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