Comments by "Jim Luebke" (@jimluebke3869) on "OverSimplified"
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@RidleyScottOwnsFailedDictators I'm not actually as familiar with whether the people of France who were there at the time, thought Napoleon had their best interests at heart or not... At least, not compared to the French people at the time.
The way that enough of the French rallied to his cause, even when it would have been easy enough to get rid of him, tells me they had other priorities.
A lot of them followed him into battle, to their deaths. Honestly, maybe France (and Europe) was better off without them, considering the generation of peace Europe experienced after they were gone.
At this point, I'm half-trolling with my arguments here, although I'm keeping them as truthful as possible. It's a fun way to explore borderline ideas. ;)
I'm not even disagreeing with you too much, except where you claim Napoleon was an "incompetent general". That's an absolutely ludicrous claim. It's like claiming Hannibal Barca or Robert E. Lee were bad generals, because they lost in the end. When you make a claim like that, it's hard to take the rest of what you're saying seriously, even if I agree with a lot of it.
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@RidleyScottOwnsFailedDictators I actually agree with you that Napoleon wrecked France (and a lot of the rest of the Continent), which anyone can see from the objective measures we can make -- no narrative necessary.
The problem is, your narrative doesn't hold together, when faced with the facts. Napoleon was, on a battle for battle basis, or even on a campaign by campaign basis, an extremely successful general -- far too successful for that success to be attributed to anything other than talent verging on genius, on his part.
He also should get credit for political reforms in a lot of the countries he conquered. "Everyone is equal. Except for me. I'm the best!" isn't such a bad way to go, once you remove the raging egotist from the top.
Talleyrand, on the other hand, was slithering filth. In his lifetime as a sleazy, self-serving turncoat, one of his dirty deeds turned out to be good for France. ("Yay!", as Oversimplified might say.) This doesn't mean we should ignore all his other treachery, any more than we should ignore the fact that Napoleon wrecked France as he led it from h*** up to glory, and back down again.
That's the problem with narratives of uniform praise or condemnation. Narrative can oversimplify, and not in a hilarious way.
You should be skeptical of ANY narrative, including your own. But, you should be especially skeptical of anyone who comes in centuries later with a narrative that contradicts what people are on record as thinking at the time. The chances are pretty good that the later narrative is less aware of what was going on then - not more.
Also -- be skeptical of any historian that makes a big deal of "Narrative". They're a waste of time, compared to the ones that stick as close as possible to the facts.
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@RidleyScottOwnsFailedDictators Hey, you mentioned Talleyrand this time. Cool!
You know, if it had just been this instance of his turning coat, I wouldn't have been so ready to criticize. But throughout the Revolution and the governments after, he was always ready to betray anyone at any time, always ready to be completely unscrupulous, always looking out for himself. "I survived" are probably the only honest words he ever spoke. Although, "It was worse than a crime, it was a mistake" is very illuminating.
And honestly, you seem to be having so much fun blackguarding Napoleon from one end of the internet to the other whenever I say anything factual and positive about him. Who am I to deny you such joy? =D
I'm not devoted to much of any narrative about Napoleon, and you bring up some very good points. However, the one of us in the throes of "Narrative" to the point of denying actual facts (such as, that he had any talents at all), seems to be you.
Any belief you might have that everyone (or indeed, anyone in particular) believes a narrative to the exclusion of facts, is projection on your part. You should be careful with it. You've said so many patently false things in your attacks on Napoleon, that I started to question whether I was right to agree with you on the true ones.
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