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Sean Gannon “you’re American” Lmao, am I now? That’s news to me, I must’ve missed where we got annexed. Gotta say buddy, you’re not doing much to dispel the “ arrogant, ignorant European” stereotype
“I’m not interested in Americans” mhmm, whatever you say Paddy. For someone who’s not interested in Americans you sure do talk about them constantly
“I never stated that I was ignorant” uh, remember when you felt the need to comment about how you siding know something? That’s called ignorance bro. but don’t worry homeboy, you don’t have to, you make it readily apparent
“Vain attempt” I don’t know about that, seems I got your kilt in a twist
“A whole bunch of off topic drivel” I don’t know why you’re so mad at me, I ain’t after your lucky charms
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+ Elaina Brouhard "there was a study done that actually showed that the OVERWHELMING number of people who used guns used it for violent attacks, not self defense" citation needed; meanwhile in the real world http://www.nap.edu/catalog/18319/priorities-for-research-to-reduce-the-threat-of-firearm-related-violence
From a cdc study comissioned by the Obama administration in January of 2013
"Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies,”
“national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year"
"no one is trying to "take your guns"" except for congresswoman Diane Feinstein who said she would if she could and the president Obama who advocated for Australian style gun control which involved confiscation and the New York Times in a slew of articles recently
"1) prevent people on the terrorist watch list from buying" yeah, that whole "due process" and "innocent until proven guilty" and "burden of proof" thing is such a hassle, suspicion is the same thing as guilt, right? And it's not like people get on the list because they have similar names, right?
"2) expand back round checks to the gun show loophole" please, name a single law that applies outside a gun show that doesn't apply inside. Infact you cannot because no such loophole exists; if you sell guns for a living, you have to run a background check regardless of whether or not you're at a gun show; if you're selling personal property you don't, it's really quite simple
"WHY DO WE WANT PPL ON THE TERRORIST WATCH LIST TO BUY GUNS??? WHY???" again, the whole "suspicion does not constitute guilt" thing is kinda important; if they had actually did something illegal that would come up in the background check all dealers are required to run and hey, it would be illegal to sell to them
" Ill tell you why, bc the Republicans are sucking the nras dick for money. it's funny how the politicians who are the most "pro guns" are the ones being funded BY THE GUN MANUFACTURERS. it all comes back to money in politics" fun fact, the. NRA is ranked 79th in total contributions , behind such groups as the National Association of Realtors, #9, (George) Soros fund management, #18, the Plumbers and Pipefitters Union, #20, Microsoft, #39, and white interestingly, Bloomberg lp, 48, y'know, that company headed up by the voraciously anti gun billionaire Michael Bloomberg?
https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php
Indeed when you look at how relatively little they actually contribute, it amazing you think they wield such power https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000000082
"13% of gun crimes happen in gun free zones. also there was a documentary done in Chicago, a city where they have strict gun laws and high crime rate due to guns, and the documentary included gang members from Chicago who stated "because the gun laws are so strict here, we go to bordering states where gun laws are less strict to purchase our weapons because it's easier" that right there just blows up any argument saying gun laws cause more crime" citation needed
"now, if you'd like me to make you look like a dumb ass I'd be more than glad to show you the mind blowing numbers involving gun violence in America" citation needed
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MangaEater68 "juice that's not worth the squeeze. Wherein, more harm is done than good" And I'm sure you back that up with data but just chose not to
http://www.nap.edu/catalog/18319/priorities-for-research-to-reduce-the-threat-of-firearm-related-violence
“Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies,”
"national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals"
"Me: First of all, who said you have to run" That would have been you "Me: As will running away, which should be a civilians first priority" "as a civilian, it is your responsibility to do your best to get away"
" haven't you ever heard of an electric wheelchair for the disabled" are you seriously suggesting that someone could escape on one of those?
"Second of all, running isn't movement in your books?" Please show me exactly where I said that running wasn't movement. What I actually said that there are people whom for whatever reason cannot run, they can walk, sit down, get up but cannot run, what is so hard to understand about that very simple concept?
"But you agree that they're a good alternative to pepper spray for asthmatics" Again with the putting words in my mouth; no it is not, quite frankly taser is quite a poor choice most because of the lack of a follow up shot should the first fail in some way
"Then they should have left it to the recognized professionals" and waited however many minutes it took them to get there and just trusted that they're assailant would wait patiently as well
"'m sure there are plenty of people that have gotten lucky and taken prescription drugs without a doctors consent, too. However, would the majority of doctors (recognized professionals) in their right mind recommend you do this? No." that would be because learning how to safely admits drugs is a hell of a lot more complicated that using a gun to defend yourself, which is why some many people do it every single year
"Me: If he's too poor to afford a lock on his door, what makes you think he'll have enough money for a gun?
You: He's not poor."
Listen, if you're just going to make shit up like this, don't even bother waiting for me to respond since is apparently has no bearing on what you say. This is actually quite meta as you're misquoting me correcting you misquoting me
"Again, why would you give this man with a terrible aim a gun with which he could miss his assailant and kill innocent bystanders? " Again, I"m sure you can prove that this is a very common thing that happens
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@Harpdashian @Cameron Steven “If the Allies had been left to face the collapse of Russia without being sustained by the intervention of the United States, it seems certain that France could not have survived the year, and the war would have ended in a Peace by negotiation or, in other words, a German victory.” Winston Churchill THE WORLD CRISIS 1911-1918 volume II
“On October 3rd 1916, a British interdepartmental conference, noted the nation's utter dependence upon american munitions, steel, foodstuffs, oil, wheat, cotton and lubricants. Were the United States to engage in economic reprisals, Britain's war effort would practically stop. “Of the five million pounds sterling needed to prosecute the war” reported a government economist John Maynard Keynes later that week “Two million must come from North America. In few months time” claimed the Treasury official “the American public will be in a position to dictate to this country on matters that affect us more nearly than them”. Reginald Mckenna, chancellor of the exchequer, concurred with Keynes telling the Cabinet in late October, “by next June, or earlier the president of the American Republic will be in a position if he wishes to dictate his own terms to us”. At the end of December Mckenna told an american journalist that Wilson could “force the allies to their knees anytime in a moment”.” J. Doenecke Nothing Less Than War: A New History of America’s Entry into World War I
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@David291 " I know you are but what am I?" wow, that was very clever, did you manage to come up with that all on your own?
"I'm also not sure" you being ignorant is going to be a running theme in this I feel
" The USA wouldn't have been able to land in Western Europe without the UK." because as we know, literally the only way to get to Europe is through the UK, I thought the Americans were supposed to be the ones bad at geography
" I'm also not sure how we are rewriting history." ever notice how British recountings of how enigma was broken tend to gloss over the massive polish contributions? weird that
Or how about the comment a few above you "Britain had already turned the tide in their battles against the Japanese" hmm I don't remember many British ships at midway, oh well
or a few before that "D day almost all the ships were British most of the solider were British (about 65-70%) and most of the paratroopers" 61,715 British soldiers landed on Normandy, 73,000 Americans did. 8,500 brits in the 6th airborne division vs 15,600 american paratroopers. To be fair, this may not be arrogant historical revisionism, probably just brits being shit at maths
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jimiie5436 "Every country is in a different situation, but that doesn't mean it can use it as an excuse for when things aren't going right. " So countries are different but if something works in one country then it will obviously work in every single one because they all operate under the exact same circumstances
"There are a lot of black people in France, from their former African colonies. There are a lot of black people in the UK and even fresh immigrants in Spain now from Africa."
But no where near the number of immigrants that the US has
"facts/reality and find a really thoughtful solution" Oh facts like you're more likely to use a gun defensively that you are be be assaulted with one? Or that murder has been falling for over two decades now at the same time as gun ownership has been increasing and not only has the rate been falling, it's been falling faster than a number of other countries that have adopted gun control
"Allowing everyone to obtain a weapon obviously doesn't work" Well then it's a good thing that not everyone can get a gun in the US, but obviously you knew that and just conveniently forgot to mention that; the alternatives, that you were too damn lazy to do anything other that parrot something you read somewhere else or were intentionally misrepresenting something , are obviously not possible
"make it harder for criminals/mentally ill people to obtain them" Vastly easier said than done in the US; maybe you haven't noticed but criminals, they tend not to care what the law says (during prohibition they got alcohol, today they can still get drugs and convicted felons, who are banned from owning firearms, still get guns)
"There are a lot of practical examples today of which USA could a take a lesson from." Like mexico and russia and south east asia and south america and africa and all those countries which have instituted some form of gun control and surprise surprise, it did not work
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jimiie5436 in 1993, the australian muder rate was 1.9
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current%20series/tandi/261-280/tandi261.html
in 2012 it was 1.3
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current%20series/facts/1-20/2013/1_recorded.html
thats a decrease of roughly 31%
US
1993: 9.8
2012:4.7
thats a decrease of roughly 52%
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
"The fact is 2000 people die , which is by far the highest in any developed country" it's almost as if the US has a much larger population
Also, that number is completely made up
but even looking at rate, it's not the highest, third actually
And when you look at things like sexual assault, robbery, assault, quite the opposite
http://www.civitas.org.uk/crime/crime_stats_oecdjan2012.pdf
"And I want a reference to that 49% because you USA people always tend to make up your own facts." Because you haven't been making stuff up this whole time, like that 2000 deaths thing
I'm curious though, where did you get thatI'ma n american? Or did you just make something up and assume that it was true because it fit your idea as to what you think is true?
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jimiie5436 "You cannot say that I am lazy after the info I already gave you" wow, you cited wikipedia, good job
"moment people need guns to defend themselves,there is something wrong" no shit sherlock, that as why I want every advantage i can get. In an ideal world no one would need a gun for self defense but thats not the world we live in
"Having guns freely available wouldn't really help improve the situation, would it? " Uh yeah, believe it or not criminals don't really care whether something is illegal or not(prohibition, war on drugs, felons cannot own guns but still do) and by making guns harder to get you're giving them an advantage regardless of whether that specific criminal has one or not
"we don't need to guns to defend ourselves" well good for you, believe it or not, not every single person in the world is exactly like you, some of them are old, others a physically disabled and in a confrontation, a gun is really the only option they have other than hoping the perpetrator doesn't mind leaving witnesses
"How about improve your police, mental hospitals, care to people who need help"
1. police cannot be everywhere at once
2. even when you call them it takes several minutes
3 they have no duty to protect you (try suing them for not doing so)
4. Because all criminals are insane
5. Because its easy and cheap to completely treat 100% of mental illness
"which in reality/long term doesn't solve anything" it sure seems to be, firearm ownership is up, ccw licensing in way up and crime is down
" 9000" here's an idea, look up the actual number, and stick with that number, stop making a new one up every time
"there are a lot of innocent people dying by unintentional use of farm arms" 606, slightly less than the number of deaths due to bicycles
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jimiie5436 " you USA" Tell me, where do you think I live? Cause I'm betting you're wrong
"I told you why I had 2000" yes you did, because you were to lazy to check
"give you a link about the 9000"
You said "There are around 8000 gun deaths per year in the USA.", this is nor true, there were 8,885 homicides with a gun in 2012 but not all deaths are homicides
"You see Wikipedia and assume it is not credible, without even checking its references"
And apparently neither did be cause if you had read the cdc paper, you would have seen that the only reference to firearms what an informal estimate
"clearly suck in creating a safe society" thats why crime of all types is going down and things like rape and assault and robbery are less common than the "developed world"
"You have never lived in a society without guns, and because of your indifference about other people, you have to arm yourself to the teeth." I must say,this idea you have of me in your head is quite different than the actual me, not that you've let reality distract you before
"you live in a banana republic" Again, where might that be? Also, do you have any actual idea what that term actually means?
"you fail to create a safer society." again, down 50% and falling every year
"hings USA can learn from other countries to improve its safety and gun deaths." because the US is exactly the same as those other countries
Tel me though, what are these magical laws that would solve everything?
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cristop5 "It's about basic numeracy and logical inference, not statistics" listen we get it, your ignorant on such matters, really don't need to reinforce it. But regardless, you completely ignored any other possible variable, you didn't mention trends before any action was taken,you conveniently ignored countries like Mexico or any country in Africa or south america which would've provided data that contradicted you
"More guns in circulation means more gun deaths" you sure about that? how do you square this with your dogma then?
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/reports/nics_firearm_checks_-_month_year.pdf
record number of firearm background checks
while at the same time
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2009-2013.xls
murders go down every single year. Pray tell how does that equal more guns=more gun deaths cause the data is saying something else
"It also means crazy or evil people can easily shoot strangers in large numbers - and they do so every few days" citation needed
"your country" my country? Pray tell,what have you decided "my country" is? Cause i'm willing to bet you're totally wrong and just presumed something to be true because it suited your narrative
"Shedden, Claresholm, Moncton, La Loche"
Cairns, mass stabbing, ban knives
Logan,mass shooting, ban guns
Quakers hill, mass arson, ban fire
Lin family murders,mass hitting, ban blunt objects
Churchill fire, mass arson,ban fire again
etc
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cristop5 "I never re-defined anything." the website you "cited" did
Stil not answering my questions then eh?
just in case you missed the numerous times i've posted this
Murder with guns going down
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/expanded-homicide-data/expanded_homicide_data_table_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2010-2014.xls
Number of guns going up
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/reports/nics_firearm_checks_-_month_year.pdf
""I like my gun(s). They're fun, they make me feel safe. I know there will always be gun owners who are (or become) angry/evil/crazy/clumsy/careless etc and kill and maim people but - that's not likely to be me so it's not my problem."" again, why i bother to speak when you're quite happy to put words in my mouth. Believe it or not, i don't believe in collective guilt, people are responsible for they own actions
"Now this is not exactly a virtuous position, but at least you could stop posing as someone who cares about data, evidence, logic, society at large etc." oh that would be you, after all you're the one who cites websites who've been repeatedly proven false you're the one who cherry picks data and ignores the fact that people can in fact die by means other than gun; you're the one who has continued to ignore the fact that while there are more guns that ever in the US, the murder rate with them is at a near century low; you ignore the fact that "Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies,” and that "defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals" http://www.nap.edu/catalog/18319/priorities-for-research-to-reduce-the-threat-of-firearm-related-violence
Again
Murder with guns going down
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/expanded-homicide-data/expanded_homicide_data_table_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2010-2014.xls
Number of guns going up
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/reports/nics_firearm_checks_-_month_year.pdf
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Cool, let's talk statistics and data http://www.nap.edu/catalog/18319/priorities-for-research-to-reduce-the-threat-of-firearm-related-violence
From a cdc study comissioned by the Obama administration in January of 2013
"Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies,”
"defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals"
http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf
"The Harvard study attempted to answer the question of whether or not banning firearms would reduce murders and suicides. Researchers looked at crime data from several European countries and found that countries with HIGHER gun ownership often had LOWER murder rates.
Russia, for example, enforces very strict gun control on its people, but its murder rate remains quite high. In fact, the murder rate in Russia is four times higher than in the “gun-ridden” United States, cites the study. ”Homicide results suggest that where guns are scarce other weapons are substituted in killings.” In other words, the elimination of guns does not eliminate murder, and in the case of gun-controlled Russia, murder rates are quite high.
The study revealed several European countries with significant gun ownership, like Norway, Finland, Germany and France – had remarkably low murder rates. Contrast that with Luxembourg, “where handguns are totally banned and ownership of any kind of gun is minimal, had a murder rate nine times higher than Germany in 2002.
The study found no evidence to suggest that the availability of guns contributes to higher murder rates anywhere in the world. ”Of course, it may be speculated that murder rates around the world would be higher if guns were more available. But there is simply no evidence to support this.”
Number of guns is up https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/reports/nics_firearm_checks_-_month_year.pdf
Number of murders is down
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/expanded-homicide-data/expanded_homicide_data_table_8_murder_victims_by_weapon_2010-2014.xls
https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen/
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samiamrg7 "You realize that is exactly what happened to Charles Whitman, right? He was an angry, frustrated person who decided to go on a killing spree." Did he know that guns weren't allowed on campus? They probably should've made it extra illegal, big signs and everything, i bet that would've stopped him
"They discourage certain behaviors." and dammed if sometimes bad people don't listen to them
"This notion that having rules against having guns on campus won't stop anyone from having a gun on campus is ridiculous." surprisingly enough, the people who want to do bad with guns, tend not to care about said rules. Pray tell, were there just not enough rules against such things at columbine? Virginia tech? Newtown? University of Texas? How many rules do there need to be?
" If someone sees them with a gun, they will get reported to campus security! " like with charles whitman, right? Also, does your vocabulary not include the word concealed?
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RuleofFive "If you're too stupid to understand flippancy then I don't know what to tell you.....you're just not very bright." Nah, you just aren't terribly good at delivery. Also, try calling me stupid again, I'm sure it'll work/have an effect this time
"Yes I care and have been involved in smoking awareness campaigns.....as my father was a tobacco user that died from it" I guess I'll just take you're word for that then
". Of course as I said you don't know me so you don't know what you're talking about.......once again." I don't think you do; what I say and what you respond to have a tangential relationship at best
"Tobacco is a dangerous product and because of that fact it has been heavily regulated by the government as it should be. " and now no one dies from it, thank you government
"Automobiles can be dangerous too so there are safety requirements for manufacturers, requirements for drivers of different classes of automobiles by age and knowledge" as well as no background check, no need to register or be licensed unless you're on public roads, no restriction on capacity, range or other such capability, suppressors are built in without additional fees and paperwork etc.
"Guns give people that want to do harm the ability to go anywhere and victimize other people no matter where they are like schools, movie theaters, malls, universities" which they do not do 99.99% of the time
"That's a problem and makes them more dangerous to public safety" so something that kills fewer people is more dangerous is it? Do you hear yourself at all?
"people that don't feel" because feelings are what's important
"To feel safe" to feel safe and to be safe are two disjunct concept, case in point "gun free zones"
"There should be a national background check with no way to get around it." Rememebr that time there was a national ban on alcohol or on heroin or cocaine or meth or marijuana with no legal way around it? How'd those work out? Do you really feel those group who have become unspeakably wealthy provided those things illegally would find it hard to provide firearms illegally too? And what if someone steals a gun?
"There should be a loss of firearms for anyone that is suffering from schizophrenia" and whom, pray tell, would decide this? Psychology is far from a hard science. And what if they already own the gun, is it confiscation time then? What if later they're cured? Can they own them then? What if they relapse, confiscation again?
"There should be a national registration by weapon serial number just as the military has" How would this help at all? Is it unthinkable that someone could remove the serial number? Again, what if a gun is stolen? Guns are made of many parts, will you serialize every single one?
"Finally it should be illegal and a felony to conduct a cash sale of a weapon without the required background check and registration." How on earth is this to be enforced? How can you surprise every single back room, alleyway, under the table deal?
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RuleofFive "Yeah this is the silly shit I'd thought you'd come up with." Not believing something some random person said on the Internet is silly shit is it?
"No less people die from it as its down from 21% in 2005 to 18% in 2013. The total number has gone from 45 million to 42 million despite an increasing population. There is more education, less chance to use it in public places like bars and restaurants and tobacco companies paid class action lawsuits to the states to help with the medical costs borne by tax payers and their customers. That's the point." then you should be happy to hear that in that same period the murder rate in the US went from 5.6 to 4.5, I guess we don't need that regulation after all
"What? Of course people need to apply for a drivers license" as I said, if you're going on public roads
"There are thousands of things that are regulated in society to good effect" like marijuana and cocaine and heroin which thanks to the government are a nonissue now, whereas guns, which are running wild, are contributing to the murder rate being a near century low, we've got to do something!
"You need good guys with guns to combat the bad guys with guns" Not a bad idea, that's generally the theory behind soldiers, armed police and armed guards like the secret service and the like
"That's why we need the federal regulation" Good thing that the U.S. has a totally secure border that no one could ever bring contraband across, that's how the all mighty government stopped the consumption of cocaine and other such drugs
"Where did I say that I wanted a ban on guns that rivals alcohol prohibition? That's right....I didn't say that" where did I say you wanted one? That's right...... I didn't, what I did was point out the amazing track record of the government trying to keep certain items out of people hands
"If someone steals a gun then they have to report it to the police and they can investigate" and how will you enforce this? How will you know someone's gun was stolen if they don't report it?
"It would make it easier for the police to track weapons used in crimes. If some removed a serial number off a weapon then it would be forfeited to law enforcement for destruction" Again what exactly is to prevents criminal from removing the serial number? They don't excatly have a history of respecting the law, you'll forgive me if I rather doubt they'd follow either one of those. And again, what if it's stolen? Even if the previous owner did report it, then what? You still have no idea who has it now?
"Guns are the same way." Infact it is not, more regulation on guns is not the same as fewer regulations on marijuana. Besides, you have no right to weed
"As I said to you it wouldn't be perfect it would be better." *stupid *inffectual *only there to make you feel better
"You have the ATF present at all gun shows. You check paperwork for everyone buying a weapon or leaving with them." Can you really no imagine any way that law might be circumvented? Are you truley so shortsighted that can't see why that wouldn't work? Believe it or not, people could exchange guns outside of a gun show
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+RuleofFive
"Telling you my father died from tobacco products is not a brag and doesn't deserve your bullshit." Ah, so I should only be skeptical some of the time
"Much more should be done to regulate both" why? Nothing permanent was done for guns between 1993 and 2013 yet the murder/manslaughter rated was cut by more than half and it continues to fall every single year despite more and more people owning guns.
"I had it my way these corporations would be paying more for what their products do to society." Sins of the son, sins of the father? But as long as we're talking about "what their products do to society, perhaps you'd take interest in the cdc study commissioned by the Obama administration in Feb 2013
http://www.nap.edu/catalog/18319/priorities-for-research-to-reduce-the-threat-of-firearm-related-violence
From the report
"Self-defense can be an important crime deterrent,”
“Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ‘used’ by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies,”
"national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals,"
"gun turn-in programs are ineffective.”
"Are you saying we're unregulated in off road vehicles?" If you're taking the vehicle onto public roads, you need no license, the car needs no registration or plates etc.
"The regulations I mentioned earlier would do this and make no difference to the law abiding gun owner." Except of course the increase in cost to support the massive bureaucracy needed for your regulations and being found guilty of crimes until they can prove themselves innocent
"I don't want a ban on guns and I said this. Yes banning things creates black markets and criminal enterprises. No one wants that." So no one is going to be banned from owning a firearm? If yes, how will it help at all? If no, hey presto, you've sown the soil for another black market
"We've covered this and not to your satisfaction" that would be due to your lack of a satisfactory answer
"Of course the manufacturer might be able to embed a chip into the weapon itself." Of course, the chip could be removed or destroyed
" That doesn't mean we throw our hands up and give up." It does me we don't subject innocent people to the burden of paying for some useless preventative
"The industry will come up with something if they're pressed about it." The government mandating that the industry come up with something? Why stop there? Just nationalize the whole thing
"I do think RFID chips could solve this problem." Hey, maybe no ones told you this before but just because you think something is true, that doesn't mean it is.
"Gun owners could be required to submit an annual inventory of their weapons an ATF office." Gotta love having to prove you didn't break a law. And again, how will. You know they're telling the truth? Are you going to send out agents to inspect each and everyone? What if they lose one in the oh so common boating accidents? Will you send out divers? What if they were telling the truth but it can't be found? Shall be imprison the innocent because the presumption of guilt on the part of gun owners is necessary for the public good? How about we start making Muslims prove they're not terrorists? How about we start making catholic priests prove they're not pedophiles? How about we start making dirty brown people prove they're not illegal immigrants? It's all for the public good
"There will be more regulations on the producers of marijuana not less" severity now raw number
" BTW the regulations that I mentioned to you don't make life harder on the legal gun owner or curtail his right to buy as many as he wants." Really? Increased cost and having to prove their innocence?
"If a universal background check stops a felon or mentally ill person from getting a hand gun" A rather large if; didn't the recent news shooter pass his background check? Oh that's right, he did. And again, it would only apply to legal sales
"The gun manufacturers would submit a serialized list of every weapon they sell to gun dealers." 3D printing, or would you ban/regulate that as well?
"If you own a gun and sell it for cash then you'd face a steep fine or jail time." So much for 'all debts public and private'. And this wouldn't make "life harder on the legal gun owner"
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Jeminai Waters " its a thing that has worked." by what standard? because murders went down? http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.html
beyond the fact that murder spiked three years after port arthur
https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/1tabledatadecoverviewpdf/table_1_crime_in_the_united_states_by_volume_and_rate_per_100000_inhabitants_1994-2013.xls
Even with out those magical fairy dust laws, the murder rate in the US plummeted too. So I'll ask you the same thing i did darth, if guns are such unspeakably evil things, how is it there are more of them the US than ever at the same times the US has its lowest murder rate in decades?
", that some COMMON SENSE might help to save lives" oh yes please great and wise prophet, do share with us your get wisdom and do try to be specific
" america has never been invaded" 1812 never happened,nor did ww2
"if you are PRO gun you quite simply are fixated with the unnatural power a person feels when holding a gun." oh thank sweet christ you're here to tell me what i believe. Let me try; if you're anti gun, you like to rape little boys. wow thats actually kinda a really idiotic thing for me to do
"it is a mechanism designed to take lives" then the overwhelming majority of firearms in the US are malfunctioning every single day.
"and that is a power that has no place in the hands of the common people" Christ,this is just honestly so pathetic http://www.nap.edu/catalog/18319/priorities-for-research-to-reduce-the-threat-of-firearm-related-violence can't have people defending themselves, can we
"fundamentally under developed emotionally, and intellectually they are." hey more bigotry! at least your make no attempts to hide what an awful twat you are
"law enforcement use them to deter offenders " no they don't
" protect others in the community" no they don't, Warren vs DC
"what was not intended was every weaksauce loser being armed to the teeth around said law enforcement." citation needed
"if you are terrified of government having all the power and taking it from you, how about developing a government you trust, that serves you and stop voting out of ignorance and irrational fear?" false dilemma,believe it or not people can and do both
"stop voting out of ignorance and irrational fear?" you criticizing people for they ignorance and irrational fear is hypocrisy at its zenith
any other ignorant,hate filled tirades you'd like to share?
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MangaEater68 Believe it or not, there is a segment of the population who tends to not care in the slightest what is and is not illegal, these people we call criminals
"As will running away, which should be a civilians first priority since they're not professionals" There are also people whom cannot run, we call them elderly/ physically disabled
"like taser guns and pepper spray." God forbid you be asthmatic or if there's more than one attacker or if you miss
"But you agree, then, that the logic you are going by: regular civilians should be allowed to wield dangerous weapons as long as there's a possibility (no matter how small) that they will be under attack with said weapon once in their life is flawed? Good. Because that's the point." Again, believe it or not, there is kind of a huge difference between a handgun and a nuclear bomb
"home security system, locks on your door" Lord knows I'm never not in my house
"taser gun" again, what if there's more than one attacker? What if you miss?
" a panic room" and if you're too poor to afford one or live in a place that won't allow you to put one in you can go pound sand
"self defense classes, being physically fit" yeah, if your elderly, physically disabled, have poor footing, etc, you can go fuck yourself
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MangaEater68 You're big fan of false comparison, aren't you?
"you should leave prescribing drugs to the professionals, like doctors, who are trained to do so." safely issuing pharmaceuticals id very different from using a gun to defend yourself, which people do a lot every single year
I. Where on earth did I say they couldn't move? I said couldn't run, big difference
II. Because tasers are not some magical device that you just point at someone and then they're instantly and harmlessly neutralized. Again, you could miss, there could be more than one guy or they might be more than 5 meters away
III Because every single crime ever committed ever was done with every criminal carrying a gun and never has any homeowner managed to stop multiple assailants with a gun
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=homeowner+shoots+intruders
wow that was so hard to find
IV. Again, where on earth did I say anything about being too poor to afford a lock? I'll give you a hint, I didn't , you just made some shit up because you and the truth seem to have a tangential relationship at best. What I said was they might not be able to afford a panic room, which tend to be expensive or they might live in a place that they don't have permission to alter
V. Under stress, gross motor skill decrease greatly, simply being in a situation where you would need gun or a taser would make you much less accurate
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MangaEater68 "you have an increased risk for firearm injuries/death 365 days every year." So all you could come up with is a cherry picking study that ignores the fact that suicides happen with or without a gun present(see Japan)? Great job there
"Me: Correction; I said running away was an alternative, not that you "had" to "run" away. "
No, you really didn't, you said that it is a "civilians first priority"
"Yes, someone "could" get away on those, especially if robbery is the culprits priority and not homicide." Yeah, I'm sure they'll speed away on one of those
"Me: I'm sure the person dying at CVS would tell the pharmacist the same thing. Still doesn't warrant letting prescription drugs be available over the counter. The juice just isn't worth the squeeze" How many people have ever been saved because someone used a prescription medication otc? How many thousands of times a year does that happen? I'm guessing you didn't even bother to look at the cdc study
"and a gun wouldn't be as good as a tank" What idiocy is this? Are you physiologically incapable of making reasonable comparisons?
"and if you do miss, well, that just brings us back to discussion V. As for "multiple attackers" see flaw III. listed below.
You: No response." Was I suppose to refute this yet again? Do you find it too difficult to scroll back up?
"You should be a recognized professional (military, police) to use guns and understand when to use them and when not to use them."
Because the military and police never ever make a mistake and if you want to protect yourself with he most effective means available well too bad
"Me: According to you? Very often" Listen, I get it, you're very imperceptive but don't you think your over playing it a bit?
To make this as simple as I possibly can, under stress, gross motor skills are lost decreasing accuracy HOWEVER this DOES NOT translate into increased harm to bystanders, if you have some legitimate study that shows us all the people whom have been injured by stray gunfire from a defensive use, please share
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Colin Campbell "Like can you tell me of any fighter jet" I'm going to let you in on a littler secret, the Harrier is not nor was it ever a fighter, its a ground attack/strike aircraft. It has been very occasionally used as fighter,thanks to american missiles, but that is not its primary function both in theory and in practice> and even in ground attack, its apparently "utterly,utterly useless" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1529620/Major-attacks-useless-RAF-in-leaked-e-mails.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1530420/Typhoon-wins-gun-dogfight.html
"could fly almost fully backwards in mid air" yeah,going to need some citation for that ever happening in combat buddy
"the raptor as it was 30 years after the harrier and has to use two jet engines to hover " the raptor cannot hover you're thinking of the lightning II,not to accuse you being interested in being correct at all though
"the americans love the harrier" why don't the use it more then?
"our silly government thinks it was passed it's time" it would seem they're correct
"let the americans have this world class jet?" seems fair for all the missiles and helicopters and rifles and jets they let you have
Also, for all our sakes, could you please work on your grammar and punctuation
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" I have said a lot and backed up a lot." That is an absolute lie, you have not backed up or proven a single thing you've said
"Well, you said this specific thing. please provide a link"." is it too much to ask for you too back up everything you've claimed to be true? Called burden of proof
"Short scenario. there is a shooting at a school in a Republican state with a campus carry laws. 3 gunmen decide to shoot the place up but split up. upon hearing shots, would be heroes whip out their guns and decide to be heroes. What do you think is most likely to happen. I will tell you what I know will happen.
1. when police come on the scene and see so many people with guns, they wont know who the perps are and the would be heroes are.
2. The would be heroes probably wont know as well who the vigilantes are and the who the shooters are and in a frightening real life situation they have no training for, they will shoot innocent people.
3.Overzealous vigilantes would try to test their action hero moves and shoot innocent civilians." And I'm sure you can point to the many times that this has happened in real life on the many campuses that allow carry, I'll wait right here
"Tamir rice and John Crawford were shot in open carry states by law enforcement. and that is just off the top of my head. " so police get a call that a gun is being pointed at people, they get there to see a gun with no orange tip being drawn at the and this somehow proves that you're right?
As for John Crawford, you do know a rather zealous anti gun man called to the police and deliberately lied and exaggerated to the police, right?
"For example, i said that illegals and refugees is what America is. you really want me to prove that? it is historical fact." is English your first language? Are you functionally literate? Because I pretty clearly said " anything you've said about guns or related to guns in this thread" what about that short and simple phrase is so difficult for you to understand? I'm seriously asking because you have habitually failed to understand it?
"I could keep going but i wont" doing what? Typing? You've done plenty of that with not actual substance to it
As it seems I cannot make things simple enough for you
"Conservatives stance let's fill the streets with guns, promote vigilantism where normal citizens are executioners and if they mistakenly kill innocent civilians in the process, divert attention" prove this
"and the statistics show that the overwhelming majority of the top 10 high gun violence states are those without gun control" prove this
"what I know will happen." do prove what you know
"what is so hard about that?" I suggest you ask yourself, you've struggled with this painfully simple concept since the start
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@ China, Brazil, Japan, Canada, UAE, UK, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, India, Indonesia, South Korea, Kazakhstan, Kuwait, Philippines, Malaysia, Vietnam, Thailand, Germany, Austria, Spain, Poland, Italy, Switzerland, Hungary, Czechia, Denmark France etc and so forth
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marrioman thirteen except for course tantalum, lanthanum, molybdenum, platinum, iron, tin, gold, cobalt, silver, lead, arsenic, hydrogen, chlorine, fluorine, bromine, iodine, tennesine, oxygen, nitrogen, carbon, sulfur, phosphorus, tungsten, antimony, bismuth, astatine, zinc, copper, nickel, mercury and manganese, yeah, you’re right
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@martinvanburen4578 "Gun control in itself is not racist." is that so? Well lets have a quick review of the things that you don't think are racist
A Florida law in 1825 authorized white people to “enter into all Negro houses” and “lawfully seize and take away all such arms, weapons, and ammunition.” according to you this is not racist
In Dred Scott v. Sandford,
Chief Justice Roger Taney argued that one reason Black people could not be citizens under the Constitution was that it “would give to persons of the negro race” the right “to keep and carry arms wherever they went.” according to you, this is not racist
After the Civil War, the Black Codes enacted in the South made it a crime for a Black person to have a gun. Cottrol & Diamond, supra note 1, at 344. according to you, this is not racist
The mullford act, created for the express intent of disarmiung the black panthers, is not racist, so says you
doi.10.1186 s40621-020-00272-z go read this paper "The color of risk protection orders: gun violence, gun laws, and racial justice" and see how not racist gun control is
To your mind, none of these things are racist; what is racist is citizens of a country being treated as citizens
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@sanniepstein4835 "Not an argument" Well when the initial comment is as utterly nonsensical as "More co2 is better because plants and heating bills" theres not really anything you can say to that
"How does 1 or 2 degrees of heat increase extreme events?" Because weather an climate are very complex systems
"Have there recently been US hurricanes equal to those in 1938 and 1954?" you mean category Vs? yeah, there was Lee, Ian, Lorenzo, Dorian, Michael, Maria, Irma, Matthew, Felix, Dean, Wilma, Rita, Katrina, Emily, Ivan and Isabel and thats only in the 21st century in the atlantic
"Midwestern fires such as those in Minnesota in the early 20th century?" Did you miss where 45 million acres of canada burned last year?
"Droughts on par with the 1930s?" havent heard of the southwestern North American megadrought have you.
You seem to take an odd pride in your ignorance
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@TheMarineGamerIGGHQ between the US and russia, which has built the better part of a thousand 5th gen stealth fighters and which has built 2?
Russia comes out with all these flashy designs, su-57,75 mig-41, t-14,t-15, an-94, shtorm etc etc and then those designs fail to materialize and the Russians go back to building derivatives of Soviet era designs, russia is all style, no substance, I’m sorry if that makes you mad bro mad
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Generik so you don’t know the difference between land and water and you cannot count, fantastic, glad we made that clear
There is a difference between total area and land mass, that difference is water area. You started by saying land mass in which Canada is 4th. This really isn’t that difficult to understand
https://books.google.com/books?id=pBc9349sw4QC&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false
“Canada is the second largest country in the world having a total area of lands and waters of 9,984,670 square kilometers, (Russia is the largest at 17,075,400 square kilometers). However, in terms of dry land area Canada ranks FOURTH at 9,093,507 square kilometers.”
There or can you not read either?
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@djaa7 article 2 section 2 clause 1 “The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.” Clause 2 “He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.”
Do you often have this much trouble reading?
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@maxsmith695 source: the aliens revealed it to me in my dreams
Why do you think you feel the need to lie like this? Shea was not "head of risk assessment" he was deputy for Office of Manned Space Flight then head of Apollo Spacecraft Program Office, his biggest effect was to make nasa settle on lunar orbit rendezvous and the investigation of the Apollo 1 fire. Also he didnt satrt working for nasa in 1963 Please, if you can prove me wrong, do it, we'd all love to see it
"Keep in mind, the NASA administrators required a 99.75% chance of success, before they would green light a launch.
Along those lines, NASA cancelled the Space Shuttle program when they recalculated the risk assessment. Prior to 1986, NASA calculated the risk of catastrophic mission failure was 1 in 100,000. After 2 Shuttles mission failures, they determined the risk was 1 in 100 or 1%. And that was too high.
Joseph Shea concluded in 1967, the chance of failure ( death of the entire Apollo crew) would be 95% per each launch. At least 10 crews, he concluded, would die before 1 landed on the moon. " citation needed
"larke was a key advisor to NASA and friends with the very top NASA people in the Apollo program. " citation needed
"According to the film producer, Bart Sibrel, ( hated by NASA and trolls on all message boards ) he was leaked information that a staged moon landing was done in New Mexico at an Air Force base, under the eye of LBJ and other top military and gov officials. " source: trust me bro
"it is obvious NASA folks used that film technique" citation needed
"ever guessed the film would be viewed millions of times by independent researchers." because nasa was unaware of the concept of the future? also "researchers" lmao grandiose title for a bunch of crackpots with zero evidence
"That is a good question. Consider what Russia would get from that worldwide statement. Nothing. " uh, how about a massive propoganda victory? you know, the thing motivating not only the space race but the entire cold war?
"Russia is smart. After all, they were 4-5 years ahead of NASA when they ended the moon mission program, after realizing the radiation barriers were IMPOSSIBLE to penetrate. " citation needed. Also, why do you think they call it a belt, not a sphere?
"Some of the blackmail payoffs are known because they were too big and too obvious to hide from anyone." should be very easy to prove then
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@@JimCarner”f35C doesn’t have sufficient range for pacific” the f35 has a range effectively the same as the current F/A-18s and they seem to do fine
“Mq-25 doesn’t have enough fuel for a single f35” fun fact, when mid air refueling, you dont start from bone dry lmao. And its a better idea than dedicating a good chuck of your combat air wind to refueling ,not least because its harder on the airframe
“The J-20 will show down mq-25” and the USN/RN will just sit there and let that happen because?
“J-20 will shoot down Hawkeye AEW” another thing the navy will just let them do. Hmm, if only there were some kind of aircraft that could fight these magical omnipotent J-20.
“Muh UCLASS” hmm, i wonder if there was anything wrong with that program? Meh, probably not, they probably just canceled it for giggles
“What do we need f35cs for?” Well according the UCLASS program, they’re needed to provide targeting info to the drones but what do they know? You’re clearly so much smarter than them
“Such drones could take out Chinese missile launchers and other targets” hmm, so a guided, explosive, powered flying munition? What are missiles again?
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