Comments by "Xyz Same" (@xyzsame4081) on "TalkTV"
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Andrew O'Hagan intentionally ignores: The moment the fire started spreading accross the facade of Grenfell Tower the building was a lost cause. The firebrigade came there to put out the fire in an apartment, routine. Little did they know that a perfectly safe house had been turned into a tinderbox. - the moment the flames ignited the facade there was maybe a window of opportunity of 5 - 10 minutes to put the fire on the facade out. And around that time they also could have made the decision for a SAFE EVACUATION.
But of course that would have required advance knowledge that such a task would even be necessary. Fires had been put out in Grenfell before and the old concrete facade and the metal windows did not promote facade fires.
It is like a wildfire, either you catch it right in the beginning - or it will spread uncontrollably.
An architect that lives nearby said he was completely shocked about how rapidly the fire spread. Well THAT is not new: such insulation or cladding fires have happened in recent years, fire brigades in other countries had voiced their concerns before. But these events always had a luckier ending. A lot of property damage but little if any loss of live.
A piece of cladding was tested in a laboratory a few days later: under sustained heat and flames, the core of the cladding pieces melted inside the thin aluminium skin. The insulation material, which burns well - ? plastics - became liquid, seeped through the aluminium skin.
It provided the fuel for the fire, and of course the liquid fuel helped with spreading the fire. Increasing heat accelerated the process. Bursting windows allowed the fire to enter the building from the outside - far away from the initial start of the aparment fire.
The testing was not sophisticated or expensive to do btw. The morons in charge could have easily detected the SYSTEMIC risk that kind of cheap cladding posed.
And the cladding was changed after the first bid. The very active Grenfell community likely would have noticed that change BUT the freedom of information act did not apply, the information was withheld from them.
Another example of SYSTEMIC failure on all levels - and yes very likely caused by class, financial interest in gentrification. What else would explain the stonewalling of the "authorities" and the "management" when they dealt with a grassroots group with very active, educated, articulate and involved renters.
The burning fridge caused a routine apparment fire, the flames leaking out at the (maybe open, maybe burst window) ignited the facade. The fire brigade was of course INSDE and dealt with the fire in the aparment. They put it out and did not even know that the catastrophe had started outside on the facade.
If they had realized in the NEXT 5, 10, 15 minutes after the facade had caught fire, that the building already was a lost cause they could have ordered to evacuate.
(It is like in the film Titanic, as soon as the Iceberg hit they were lost, even though it was not immediately obvious - except in the film to the engineer who informs the captain)
There is a video of such a facade fire on a French high-rise - the balcony (1st floor or half floor = LOW) was burning. The flames reached out, after approx 5 minutes into the the video, the flames set the facade on fire - _then it was over _ no chance to restrain the fire.
Around that time one could see the fire brigade arriving (or visible in the video). They had an advantage (starting point LOW), the highrise was not THAT high, their ladders were high enough.
It was during day.
The set-up of the facade obviously included SOME barriers for the spreading of fire.
One could see it in the way the fire spread, in distinct columns. And I think the corners seemed to have some reinforcement
STILL the French fire brigades COULD not prevent the fire from spreading ALL OVER and to the full height of the facade (on one side only if I remember correctly). The full blaze was reached in LESS THAN 1 hour.
It was during the day, the building had MORE THAN ONE narrow staircase - the damage was high, but they had only one casualty (and that may have been due to the original fire in the apartment.and not because of the wildfire on the facade).
Not even the French under much better conditions could contain that facade fire. But they had definitely much better conditions to EVACTUATE.
That is the insanity with Grenfell Tower: A building that was already a hazard due to the way it was built (one narrow staircase only). And then systemic failure was heaped upon systemic failure.
Deviate from the "stay put" standard procedure and EVACUATE
After the short window of time in the beginning (which was bound to escape the notice of the firefighters anyway) it became increasingly dangerous - smoke in the staricase.
Plus: this would have meant to act contrary to the drill and the routines that USUALLY guarantee safety - unless unbeknowst to the fire brigade some morons have turned a house that always had been safe into a tinder box.
"Stay put" also means that people stay in safety while the the firebrigades can MOVE with their HEAVY and LARGE equipment up the staircases ! And that they can concentrate on taking control of the fire and are not busy rescuing people with smoke inhalation problems.
Deviating from well rehearsed procedures is something the firefighters and their command are trained NOT to do.
In a fire the elevators cannot be used, Grenfell Tower had ONE staircase which was not wide at all. The firefighters need it free so they can go up - which is especially important for the upper levels which are out of reach of the ladders. So even if they received better equipment - I think the technical maximum is 13 floors (or 15).
In any case not enough to reach the upper levels of Grenfell Tower - not for control of the fire, and not for rescuing.
Some people panicked and ran out in the earlier stages (sometimes warned by phone calls from outsiders). Which usually is a mistake, they can perish due to smoke inhalation in the staircase.
But when they were fleeing early enough OR they had the good fortune to come across a firefighter when they were about to collapse or could not find their way - that saved them in THIS scenario.
(I saw several videos where meeting a firefithter saved someone, including the family from the 16th floor that had stayed put for several hours and then ran down. They managed to stay together, they almost failed but met a firefighter when they were about to collapse.)
If ALL people had been ordered out, more people would have been running DOWN (if they were fit enough) on the smoke filled staircase, in darkness.
Likely some trying to take stuff with them. In the early stage it was not as obvious how desperate the situation was especially when you were IN the house and did not see the whole facade and the rapid spread of the fire on it.
While the firefighters in full gear and with equipment try to go UP. They were fearful of a "traffic jam" and people dying on the staircase.
I can see how that was not an option for fire brigade and their command. It was a choice between pest and cholera - and they did not even know which one was which.
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soulmate7 - So what Labour POLICIES do you disagree with ?? - you are aware of the fact of that most UK citizens care first and foremost for THEIR LIFE and THEIR COUNTRY. - The Jewish population in UK has been treated very fairly and polling shows that from all minorities they suffer the least negative bias (that poll was recently quoted by the Times of Israel).
6 % holds anti semitic views (let's assume they are really anti semitic) - more of them in the far right, and the rest evenly spread out over the political spectrum - so no Labour does not have an anti-semitism problem, and it is not abundant with the Tories either.
So - luckily - Jewish people are not suffering harassment - the internet does not count, lots of unhinged people - but in real life, the work place, education, housing, in daily life they are doing well and they looneys do not dare to target them.
I think - and hope - the constant "crying wolf" - will backfire. It is getting a little bit too obvious. And of course the Daily Mail manipulated the photos to create the impression Corbyn had laid down the wreath for a terrorist. No he didn't.
It is very telling that both shills - they must know about the intentional misrepresentation meanwhile - would not clarify that, but go on as IF they believed Corbyn had honoured terrorists.
Mossad targeted PLO, civilians died, Corbyn joined the ceremony for THOSE civilian victims. And did not remember that right away - go figure after four very busy years.
Now, if you disagree with the policies of Corbyn as alleged Labour voter - that is fine. Plenty of other parties out there for you. Labour has enough appeal with a reservoir of people who did not vote before to compensate for those who turn to other parties.
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The bombing of Serbia (not Kosovo !! let's be precise with the wording and facts) was NOT MEANT as humanitarian intervention !! - it was sold as such and many people believed it then. One or two years after the BOMBING OF SERBIA (ONE of the parties in a nasty civil war - nasty on ALL sides) it came out the the PRETEXT of the war (concentrations camps run by Serbs, planned genocide etc. was all made up. It was a WMD story).
The US for some reason wanted war, they NEEDED Germany (almost a neighbour to YU, they needed to fly from there, Germany has lots of cultural connections with YU). There was a NEW German governement in charge, a coalition between the Social Democrats (like Labour in the UK) and the Green Party. The latter had absorbed the peace movement. (I assume the US had something on Schroeder and Fischer the party leaders, and also maybe Scharping the war minister and liar in chief).
In Germany "Never Again" (meaning Germany never again taking part in a war of aggression) is proverbial anyway. So nothing but the worst accusations against the Serbians would do to sell the war to the public and to the base of the Green Party (which was furious anyway, then they were not the bourgeoise, trans-atlantic sell-outs they are today).
So Never Again became Never Again Auschwitz, the Serbians THEN were accused of the worst atrocities and the the bombing started (and that was not a UN sanctioned mission). THAT pulled the rug from under the feet of any moderate or level-headed people on the Serbian side.
Later there were atrocities - on all sides (the most published however were the Serbian atrocities). Let's not forget that the US also had jihadists infiltrating the country to stir up even more trouble. (Yugoslavia also had Muslim). The jihadists had run out of a job after the Soviets left Afghanistan, so the U.S. with the help of Saudi Arabia recruited them to make trouble in the heart of Europe.
The German public did not suspect anything wrong - after all Yugoslavia did not have oil. Surely the US had no greedy motif to PUSH FOR WAR in THAT country ?
(There are other motifs - ask Chile, ask Afghanistan, or Grenada).
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The OPCW was about to TAKE UP their work LAST weekend, the weekend the US / NATO absolutely "needed" to bomb. - Hint: Syria will be there in 2 weeks or 3 months if you MUST bomb them (killing more people, to "punish" Assad who is doing just fine - can somone explain me the logic behind that).
- but facts and investigations are overrated.
And May needed to get the bombing done quickly. On Monday Parliament was coming back from Easter break.
There was NO WAY anybody (and that includes the spy agencies) could know what was going on. If the spy agencies have mules or double agents - these people can be deceptive towards the Western side as well (and they are not going to have many mules there , it is very dangerous.
The rebels also do not let the citizens travel freely, they are not allowe to flee from an area, when the government army attacks the rebels. They are forced to stay in the area. (In Eastern Aleppeo the rebels would rather amputate than allow civilians to go to the other side of the city where the government was in charge and there was better medical care possible. .
So it was not so easy to place a mule in an area that was held by the Islamists. (I think now the Islamists are are pretty much done, they have to give up, which I think drives the neocons and the Israeli lobby crazy).
Video evidence can be manipulated, or it is from another event (country, time), same is true for photos, let alone tweets. The people, especially "first responders", alledged or real medical staff - circulating the photos might have an agenda. They are for sure friendly with / obedient to the jihadists or they could not have lived in the area.
That is also true for the White Helmets.It is no coincidence that they ONLY operate in areas held by the Islamists. And whatever might be the stance of a man (no woman in these groups) they are either complicit with the agenda of the jihadists or at the very minimum they shut up. (Can you imagine what would happen to a person - or their family - if their mobile phone is confiscated for some reason and they detect messages that are against their interest of the Islamists. I mean they lash women for not covering up or wearing nail polish.
There is a good reason no Western journalist OR any independent NGO (Red Cross, Red Crescent; Doctors w/o borders is there).
If the Red Cross for instance would confirm things that would be another matter.
And these poisoning events (or alleged events) have a nasty habit of coming up WHEN the rebels are losing, and /or peace talks are around the corner. Especially !!! when the Trump admin or Trump himself panic the war mongers by announcing that the US will disengage from Syria (was the case in April 2017 and again in 2018).
Boom. Another social media storm "confirming" use of chemical weapons. And claiming "done by the Syrian government".
(Peter Ford former British ambassador to Syria said last year (paraphrased): Not convinced at all, we need to have a proper investigation, and we need to WAIT for the results.
Assad had nothing to gain but a lot to lose by using chemicals weapons.
The rebels on the other hand could only win, and the grandstanding US / NATO states are not going to hold them accountable. How could they if - IF - they had the intention? These militant groups form, break up, regroup under other names, people desert, take government amnesties.
Then he said: Mark my word, that attitude of the West * makes such attacks more likely. You heard me say it here: We have just given the jihadists 1000 reasons to commit such crimes.
( * to immediately and w/o investigation go after the Syrian government and take the CLAIMS of the rebels at face value and then shortly after respond with airstrikes)
And how stupid does anyone think Assad is ? Never mind he owes the Russians - big time.
And would bring THEM into troubles as well. BTW: Chinese navy joined the Russian navy in the region. Just for a demonstration that they are on Russia's side.
It is almost as if the West is not really interested WHAT happened and WHO REALLY did it (politicians AND media)
As if they are just waiting for a pretext, ANY pretext to have (limited) airstrikes against Syria. They cannot topple Assad, nor will they leave the country alone. Perpetual state of war suits some special interest just fine (and that could inlcude Israel).
And there is an agenda against the allies of Syria (Russia, but also Iran has been on the hit list for the longest time).
And if Trump strays from the war agenda (Assad must go, or having a lot of tensions between Russia and Europe !! and also Russia and U.S. ) there is even more reason to make Trump fall in line. (He looked defeated when he announced the US would react militarily, also in his body language. After he talked about the "succes" of the mission he was much more upbeat. Either mood swings - of he feared the weekend bombing would escalate. - So feared other people. - Weird if Trump might be the only person reasonable enough to be fearful. - Well this time we did not sleepwalk into a major war.
See Gen. Wesely Clark 7 countries in 5 years
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So ... membership has shot up .... glad to hear that. - I think most people are "selfish" - they are mostly interested in what is going on IN THEIR country. So they are going to shove the "wreath" event * and "anti semitism the 137th" aside and look at what REALLY impacts their life.
Let: see Brexit, Brexit, Brexit, NHS and social services, heat wave indicating what is in store regarding climate change, zero hour contracts and exploding rents, no wage growth (adjusted for inflation) - but we are told that the economy is booming and unemployment is low (depends on how you define "employed").
* I mean it could be that in 2014 he thought (and trusted the Arabic speaking organizers) that this was going to be about the 1985 victims of the Israeli attack - and it likely was.
he may wish now he had stayed in the hotel - lol.
Anyway: compare that with being on the right side of the Iraq war.
Or the ONLY official voice of reason regarding the Skripal affair. Remember early on when May, BoJo etc. all "knew" right away that it was the Russian government - burning AlL diplomatic bridges.
Well the story fell apart after that , it got weirder by the day. (I heard a recent informal polling in Salisbury. people do not know WHAT happened. it MIGHT even have been the Russian government. One thing is sure: they do not believe the official version).
The only politician that had the good sense that as PM even if you suspect that Russia (the government) "dune it" - you leave yourself some room to backpaddle without losing face if the upcoming !! investigation shows contradictory evidence.
The NHS was one of the most cost-efficient systems in the world, certainly compared to all wealthy European nations. And THEN the tories started over the course of 10 years to cut the already lean budget, running it into the ground - so that they could sell privatization as "solution" to the voters.
Their buddies would love that. And after all the banksters had been bailed out, austerity (only for the citizens !) and tax cuts for the rich had the debts and deficits exploding - there was a gap so they were "forced" to defund the NHS.
While the Blairites could not be bothered to scream bloody murder.
So who again was on the right side of the argument (recently the Tories came up with a plan for the NHS, too little too late - but even that is ONLY because of the pressure of Labour under corbyn).
Compare having a functional PROPERLY FUNDED NHS to whether or not Corbyn had a gaffe in 2014 in Tunis when he was a backbencher.
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I read that Mogg campaigned with his former nanny (going door to door). - Because she would know how to talk to the "commoners". And unfortunately he needed the votes of said commoners and had to give a "folksy" performance - with the help of nanny. Mogg has the same half baked economic ideas (harmful to the regular people) like all the tories plus the burden of his upbringing.
He could be a harmless toff - ideally he would enjoy his riches and privileges and engage in some charity work, or be a gentleman academic. But no way someone of his mindset can represent The People.
I mean FDR was also from a rich and well connected family, and HE did a lot for the little people in the U.S. - but Mogg is no FDR.
FDR had a lot of resistance in the Democratic Party. But this campaign was during 1932, when the Great Depression had ravaged the U.S., 1 million people had joined the unions in 1932 (that had been beaten down - once more - in the 1920s), strikes and demonstrations everywhere.
And the Russian Revolution was still present in public awareness, it had happened in 1917, that the Russian dictatorship was toppled, aristocrats and rich people had been dispossessed or feared that to happen. The fledgeling democracy was quickly taken over by the Bolshevics (which then killed the czar and his family which had been under house arrest).
A civil war had been going on in Russia (needless to say the U.S., UK, France took sides, and Japan joined too - which indirectly might have helped the Bolshevics the most militant group among the revolutionaries and with talented if ruthless leaders).
So enough Democratic representatives in the U.S. in 1933 (most of them wealthy and still doing fine) were scared enough of the pitchforks that could come for them too - and they went along. Plus FDR had the personality to make them fall in line.
His unheard of programs: no austerity - in the middle of the crisis unemployment and retirement payments were INTRODUCED, the government created millions of jobs, and they paid for it with taxes on the wealthy and the rich).
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