Comments by "Xyz Same" (@xyzsame4081) on "GBH News"
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Want to know how the countries do it that spend 41 - 55 % of what the U.S. is already spending per person ? Per capita healthcare expenditures means ALL that is already spent no matter who pays for it: insurance, out of pocket, subsidies DIVIDED by all people in the country, young or old, sick or healthy - and in the U.S. it includes people that do not even have coverage or go broke).
I live currently in Austria and know the German systems well (theory of how it is set up AND as user or seeing it in action with friends, collegues). So bear with me:
Other nations have independently set up national systems after WW2 that follow certain principles typical for single payer - and they ALL beat the crap out of the U.S. At the minimum !! they have covered all that is costly in medicine:
1) insurance - the publice non-profit insurance agency is either dominant or completely dominant. If it is reasonably managed and gets sufficient funding (think HALF of the U.S. level) the private insurers simply cannot compete. These nations after WW2 came all to the same conclusion: that they do not want to leave healthcare coverage / insurance to private for-profit insurers.
Only Switzerland leaves it to private insurers. Their system is good and they are WELL regulated. So they spend 8000 USD for every person in the country, versus 10,240 USD in the U.S. versus 4,900 - 5,700 USD in the countries that were lucky enough that the decision makers after WW2 got that right.
2) hospitals are ususlly non-profits, no chains allowed, nothing like the for-profit hospitals in the U.S., likewise pharmacies are usually not allowed to organize in chains (there are drugstores and then there are pharmacies)
3) the only powerful for-profit player in the system is Big Pharma. Luckily there is price transparency in the market, they have a very standardized product (so I assume the large countries somewhat protect the smaller countries - which can have a general ideal what much larger nations are paying. All other costs can be scaled up and down by multiples of thousands, and the small countries cannot be ripped off by big pharma).
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It is true that the single payer systems also need plenty of subsidies - but NOT as much as the U.S. if you compare the subsidies per person * In a single payer system the government pays LESS per person and patients/workers and companies pay much, much less.
* Only that comparsion makes sense if you have countries in all sizes from a few millions - like 3, 30, 60, 85, 127 or 238 ** (Denmark, Netherlands, Italy/France/UK, Germany, Japan, the U.S.)
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** estimate for the U.S. in 2017/2018 (those numbers include the undocomented immigrants; roughly 3 - 3,5 % of the population = 10,5 - 11 million people. Now I have seen claims that their number is higher - more like 20 millions. Well that would account for another 3 %.
That segment is younger on average, so either children, teenagers, or adults that are working - less retired persons (which are a costy group, healthcare wise). So they CONTRIBUTE to the economy - and should get healthcare coverage for that - whoever may benefit from their often lower wages, should be made to pay for their they are younger than the average U.S. citizens (so they cause much less costs in the system).
The argument is often that they are "leeching off the system" or that they would if they would get a path to legal status.
Well if the U.S. is spending 90 - 100 % more than other wealthy nations the official 3 % - or worst case scenario 6 % of the population - are NOT the problem that needs the most attention. Moreover they may avoid using medical services - but when a condition / illness gets severe they will need to (and in some cases that might attribute to higher costs in the end, because they do not get care until there is considerable damage).
So they WILL cause costs then - which may be hard to recuperate by the hospital / doctor. If they are broke, they are broke (even if you deport them - you are not going to let them die on the steps of the hospital, let alone their children).
So if they have insurance and coverage it would not add to the overall spending but DETRACT from the administrative costs for EVERYONE.
A lot of out of pocket spending is already included ! in the total spending in the country. There are rumours that they use forged SS cards, or maybe charities pay for them or they have a GoFundMe. Either way, their numbers are factored into the population numbera and the numbers for their healthcare expenditures is factored in as well in the "per capita healthcare expenditures" of the U.S.
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The "free market" can impossibly work for healthcare. - There is no need to reinvent the wheel. If so many countries (small, medium and large) did their individual version of Single Payer, usually since the late 1940s, and they ALL end up with AVERAGE spending per person between 4,900 USD and 5,700 USD (we are talking about rich nations like France,Belgium, Japan, Canada ...... Germany)
As opposed to the spending per person of USD 10,240 in the U.S. (Keiser Family Foundation, numbers for 2017 based on OECD data).
Then you can draw conclusions:
1) a first world nations will need to send approx. 5,000 USD per person per year if they want to have a good hassle free system for everyone. (which is still a lot of money, a healthy family of four will have a "share" of 20,000 and more year, after year. of course the spending that does not occur for them goes to the rare cases when people end up with high treatment costs for severe illnesses. And a lot goes into care for old people. Modern medicine can add more life time - but that comes at a cost.
2) The more public non-profit a country has in their system - the more cost efficient they can have their GOOD services. So it is better to have non-profit public hospitals than have contracts with for-profit hospital chains. The for-profit hospitals even if well regulated WILL try to sneak in something and medicine is so complex that there are countless ways to do so.
That is why most nations removed the profit motive from the situations with COMPLEX decisions (or at least they restrict the power of the for-profit players - like that no chains are allowed for hospitals).
STILL: the NHS leans the most towards public non-profit and has the U.K. has the lowest spending per person. Likewise if a nation allows some room for the for profit insurance companies and "privately insured only doctors" they end up with higher costs for everyone.
That is usually when the public coverage is underfunded so quality will suffer OR the public coverage is not comprehensive and unified. Unified means: everyone gets the same treatment in the same places - provided a doctor decides it is medically warranted. and that doctor is not influenced by a profit motive, nor does he or she have to consult anyone - like the insurance agency.
The insurance agency only negoatiates the framework, like drug prices, costs for ambulance transports, what a day in the hospital costs, etc.) - the doctors use the tools as they see fit and MAKE THE COMPLEX DECISIONS.
There are incentives for doctors to game the system, to "milk" good insurance packages (not better outcomes, but unnecessary procedures, keeping the "good" patients longer in the hospital, unnecessary tests, etc.). Even if they would not do that (they inevitably will, the complexitiy allows for that) - they system is not nearly as streamlined as it could be. so they miss out on the cost savings of a simple administration.
The NHS even runs the doctor practices and hospitals (so they donot have a contract with the hospital or the doctor practice that may be private or public - they doctors and hospitals are part of the structure).
Most of the spending in the UK happens via the NHS (and spending on private insurance and out of pocket for "private only" doctors makes things only more expensive). They have a record low level of spending per person.
For a wealthy country with the typical age structure of a mature economy: that is important. Sandard of living influences wage levels and that is important for costs in healthcare. Another factor is that everyone gets all that modern medicine has to offer. And AGE is a huge cost factor because with old age the most costs manifest.
So you cannot compare Hungary (look at their wage levels and minimum wages), and you cannot compare Israel and Taiwan with Germany, Denmark, France or Japan. They might offer modern medicine for everyone but their population is much, much younger on average.
The U.S. btw has also a much younger population on average (immigration !) - and only for that reason should beat the Europeans or Japan cost-wise.
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