Comments by "Xyz Same" (@xyzsame4081) on "Technology Connections" channel.

Consumer agency in Germany / Austria did tests: powder is better for dishwasher and for washing machines. Price, perfomance, individual adjustment to need (adding bleach, using more or less).
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@portaaids detergents (dishwasher or some for laundry) have enzymes. They do not like it hot - warm is good. And too hot water can be a shock for delicate materials (fabrics and even dishes). . Fibres could shrink etc. - As far as I know the washing machines add the rinsing water slowly after the tumbling ends a hot washing time. And the tumbling is started slowlier and does not go as high. Hot wet laundry is more delicate for abrasion. The hot fluid is removed for the most part (by the tumbling), but of course the laundry is still very warm. The machines get the rinsing water in faster when it is a cycle with lower temperatures (seems to be more unproblematic, because the temperature differences are not that high). I am not sure but I think glass also does not like the shock if too hot water in sprayed at it with pressure (when the glass did not have time to warm up). It could get a little opaque (or it is the detergent that causes that, some drinking glasses hold up better than others). If the water is warmed up slowlier then the enzymes (for laundry or for dishes) have more time to do the work (in the prewash and in the mainwash). I am not sure if the prewash is supposed to be with warm water even, maybe only in the heavy cycle (with European machines, those do not have the option of giving the machine prewarmed water).. Some high end producers tried to sell such devices as energy efficient (many years ago) - the idea was if the water comes from a thermic solar panel (they heat up water, the technology is older than photovoltaic) and there is surplus on sunny days, it would save electricity. That was the time when producer also reduced the water quantity and the race for the energy efficiency labels started. So the plumbing must allow for that (or needs to be adjusted, more valves, sensors in the machine etc). But that there are many days where people did not have a surplus of hot water, the water shouldn't be too hot when it comes in anyway, so the machines had to measure it, and mix it with cooler water (especially with washing machines). So that needed more technology for very little value (even if wealthy consumers were willing to invest for the environment. The green effect was not convincing either). So the ideal solution is: regular cool water in, and the machine heats it up. Only washing with a full load (with washing machine as much as the fabrics allow, delicates need much more room) is the best way to save energy (and detergent). Slow temp rise: That is how in the old days laundry was cooked on the stove. Soaking it overnight with soap and cool water, then some mechanical manual action and then the slow temperature increase in a big pot and stirring it from time to time.
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@rob_over_9000 professional tank systems will heat up the water for use on a regular base. Or they move it around enough. If you have water standing it is a good idea to let the tank drain, or to not drink the water and to be careful not to inhale spray when showering. A collegue died of legionella infection. They worked (a construction job in another state) and stayed overnight in a bed and breakfast and they had a small heater to prepare warm water - likely not used for a while (a week, could be longer). Legionalla are not normally in water and if the water is moved around they cannot multiply. But in that case the small unit seemed to have had a few and they had a chance to multiply. The firs of the two that took a shower got severe pneumonia (caused by legionella) and died of it. It is when you swallow the spray. If he had drunken it, he would have been fine.
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Powder detergents are more effecitive both for dish washers and washing machines. They clean better (consumer agency tests - in Europe) ! One can adjust dosage or only add bleach if needed. They are also cheaper. - People do not need more soap, shampoo or detergents compared to 20 or 40 years ago. Well maybe people wore their clothes one day longer and then washed it in the past, so more detergent being used. But there is not much room for selling MORE or at higher prices if you keep things rational and functional. Enter modern marketing: The industry now resorts to selling disinfecting products that are not needed in a normal household, or other fancy modern looking products like the prepackaged detergents (with or w/o foil - in case the foil is meant to dissolve they claim it will do so completely and will not do any damage to the machine. * see below. The prepackaged tabs fail at the simple task to split the release between prewash and main cycle. Which is very easy with powder. Also: if the dishes are extra gross one can add 20 % more, or reduce if it is a load with little food residue and also little or no fat on it. The industry now also pushes a lot of stuff for personal hygiene that is equally useless if not harmful (like vaginal washes). They create demand, to sell more and to sell products at higher prices. The tabs are sold in other packing volumes and the consumes cannot directly compare howmany machine loads they get out of powder. Well the consumer agencies have done the math: the tabs cost considerably more per cycle. That may be compensated because consumers often overdose powder. But still, the likely have more profits. another thing that shocked me: the normal (usually smaller) powder packages and the offers (usually larger cartons, cna be double - are not necessarily the same product. The same brand and the exact same product of the brand - but they might use inferior ingredients. The washing results (for washing poweder) were not quite as good. We are talking about quality brands that dominate the market. In general even the slightly reduced washing power is pretty good. And pretreating the collars and the stains beats any washing powder. That way the general use of powder can be kept normal (instead of "stained") as the modern machines also use as little water as possible for rinsing, using less but enough detergent will give you better rinsed laundry.
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Small disadvantages of (otherwise vastly superior) powder detergent: If customers will not use a measuring cup they will likely overdose with powder. and: powder needs to be kept dry and with a lid on. (the wrapped prepackaged tabs are protected from air). Oxygen from the air will react with it and it becomes less potent. Dishwasher detergent has a real best before shelf life. Not so sure with washing powder it keeps well and long as long as it is stored dry and protected from air. A carton or piece of paper on the surface of the powder in the half full carton (with loose powder) and a plastic bag and rubber band around it the whole carton will do the trick. The quantity needed for ongoing use can be in a decorative plastic container with a good lid. if the dosage is correct with the measuring cup (usually way less than consumers eyeball) one does not have to refill often. Old dishwasher powder still will work but with slightly inferior results. That is mainly an issue with tea and coffee residue in cups, there you can see the decline that comes with age (bleach in the powder deals with that residue resp. the discolortions. Bleach reacts with oxygen and it is not shelf stable for very long time (think 2 years). maybe if you bought the powder 1 year ago (but stored it carefully) there might be some aging effect already. That would be mainly an issue for a second residency, vaccation home. That negative effect can manifest much faster if the detergent is not stored with a closed lid. Having it open for an hour or so will not ruin it, but in many households the constantly open container is in a cabinet and accessed whenever needed. ideally one will buy powder concentrate in not too large volumes (depending on the size of the household), measure correctly (according to the package = much less than you would eyeball) then the whole content of the original package can be stored in one box with lid, and regular use is no hassle. At max the next refill will empty the store bought carton.
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In the energy saving mode the drying function of the dishwasher is slightly less efficient. Plus I do not use rinse aid (the chemical is a form of "detergent") that is sold to promote drying. I want the dishes to be rinsed with water, likely the machine adds some salt from the container in order to counteract calcium in the water - and that is it. - So that makes one or the other swipe necessary and glasses and silverware will not "shine" and sparkle. When washing dishes manually I always let the dishes dry on a rack, they do not sparkle either. And the sparkle is not worth ingesting the residue day in day out. In practice there are always some things where water has collected. Not even an electricity squandering good drying cycle would solve that. I usually remove what dries well (hard surfaces where the water can run off easily and competely, like plates), glasses and silverware gets a sloppy swipe with the towel - if needed. That is done while the dishes are still hot / warm. Then I move the dishes that are still wet from collected water, or plastic that does not dry well, and arrange if for a few more hours drying time - either in the upper basket of the machine The lower basket already accomodates new dirty dishes and silverware. Or outside on the rack. If I detect in the process something that isn't completly clean I give it a quick do-over, usually with cold water. That is not as unpleasant as washing dishes, the article is grease free, just something has dried on, or the roast residue on the pan. A little rubbing with the rough side of a sponge and cold water will bring it to perfection. It is hardly any work and it is very preferable to normal dishwashing. Then it goes onto the dish rack or into the upper basket of the dishwasher - it depends.
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the foil of the prepackaged tabs in some cases is supposed to dissolve (the sell them in Europe ). On the carton with the instructions one can see if it is supposed to be unwrapped (usually the foil rustels more) or if the sellers suggest to add it with the foil as is (which I would not do nontheless). I guess that is meant to delay the release if the foil dissolves. I got some samples in a shop or with mail and I removed the allegedly dissolving wrapping. Anyway you should not use that stuff, not even in the washing machine.
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Producers of detergent sell the same gimmick for washing machines. - PROBLEM: dishwashers have tubes with a small diameter so the necessary water pressure can build up. So you always want to do the prewash cycle with detergent, so there will be no build up of residue / plaque. And you certainly do not want to take risks with wrappings that are supposed to dissolve fully with no residue that could fall out. That claim would need to be true for the full life of your dishwashers (which they might shorten). Good luck with proving 5 or 6 years later that the fancy new products did cause a clogging up. The large companies (producers of detergent and of washing machines) do not criticize each other's strategy to sell more or new more expensive stuff. The producers of machines will not complain if the replacement will be needed 2 - 4 years earlier. The lower energy saving cycles in Europe with 50 degree C which equals 122 degree F are not good if used most of the time. The tubes WILL clog up (with fat) The manufacturers of the machines aim for the energy efficiency labels so they do the documented cycles for the label with the low temp cycle. And kind of suggest / insinuate that it would be a good thing to use it most of the time unless you have really gross dishes. (if not consumer protection would call them out if the test cycle and the energy efficiency label does not correspond with what tell the consumers to use most of the time. The machine will not need the repair right away. The manufacturers of prepackaged detergent also do not warn the consumers. Of course not: even though they still have to produce the powder they would rather sell the new product, it costs much more per washing cycle. It will not make the big difference per household, but if you sell to tens of millions of households double the cost or 50 % more per washing cycle do add up for the industry. A relative had a high end dishwasher, service technician told her not to use the low temp cycle as default. Once in a while it is O.K. As the dish washer was a good model and known to last (normally) she invested into the repair. Which likely was avoidable, and I do not think she saved that much in energy. Lower temps can be better for glasses and plastics (the lower temp is less of a strain), but if the dishes are dirty and especially if there is fat / oil - it is better to use the normal higher temperature. The alternative would be to use more detergent, which kind of defies the environmental aspect. The lower temp could be used to be kind to certain materials. Or in the rare ! case that you have a full ! load but with very little dirt on it. Maybe the glasses of a party. Or coffee if the cake was of the non-fatty sort. In most cases it is easier to wash that one delicate thing manually and 99 % of the time it will be the same 'ole standard program. For saving energy and detergent it is best to only run it when full - and that can be every other day. If you do not have special bugs (like ants already love your home) or live in the tropics that will be fine, as long as you only lean on the door so that a little air can enter. If you close it for aesthetic reasons make sure to never go longer than 1 day with a closed door, else mould and odor could develop. If the 2 days become 3 or 4 and air can enter you have no problem, the residue has dried in a little better maybe. As for older dishwasher detergent (or if the dishwashers is just not good): The fatty and gross stuff is still removed. What "bakes" on is starches, or eggs, or some burnt in protein / starch crust from searing. The hotter the temperature the more likely that is to happen. High temps are good to remove oil, but they also make starches cake on dishes. Heat firms up eggs too so same effect can happen in a hot wash. (It is like making a custard, the starch is heated up and it thickens). If you have a starchy dough w/o fat like a simple yeast dough, any crusts in the preparation bowl it is easy to clean up with cool water, not even detergent is needed. Maybe soaking it in cold water if it is a hard crust. Or scratching if off. The fat has also been washed out of that crust, so you are left with baked on starch or protein structures, that are not gross. Give the same dishes with dried on starch into the dishwasher with the heavy duty cycle - and the easy task for handwash might fail. (the hot water can stabilize the unwanted crust even more). On the other hand dishwashers are good when dealing with gross and fatty dishes. Which is what I hate the most about doing dishes manually. so I'm quite lenient with my dishwasher (which may come from not washing the dishes immediately, but letting them dry for a day.
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Dishwasher have tubes with small diameter (for pressure build up, spray arms etc.) they WILL clog up earlier. The grease in the prewash and maybe also the residue of the foil may build up and eventually require a repair. I know they promise the foil dissolves perfectly. Good luck to prove that it caused an avoidable repair after 5 - 6 years, when the dishwasher could have lasted 10 years. - The producers of machines will not complain, in many cases the consumers will buy new if the machine was not a high end model. the modern looking gimmick (prepackaged tabs) cost 50 - 100 % more per cycle, plus the results are inferior. Producers of machines have it hard to find new real innovations. The producers of detergents have the problem that rational consumers would not use more or more expensive products (same for personal hygiene products btw). It is a stagnant market, the products have been around for a while and are pretty functional already: See powder detergents. The last RELEVANT (and useful / justified) innovation in Europe for detergents was in the 1990s when the laws forced them to use less phosphate. that is much better for the sewage treatment plants / for the rivers (not too many nutrients). protecting water was the reason for these laws. Phosphor is a very valuable element, it should be treated like gold (because we also need it for fertilizers to replenish it in soil). We CAN get nitrogen out of the air and there are plants that have bacteria in their roots and can get nitrogen out of the air (legumes like beans or lentils). Nitrogen is a very common element, that part of agriculture we have covered. They could have plants in the Sahara run them on solar and there produce the needed nitrogen production (it needs a lot of energy) for the world. There are not many places on the globe where the coincidence of geological events - deposition and folding up of the crust of the earth - concentrated phosphor sufficiently so mining can be done in a cost efficient matter. The pure element is highly reactive (thus the use in explosives or for matches, and I guess that property also makes it useful in small quantities for plants and animals) In nature it will bind to other elements or molecules. There is not that much phosphor on the planet to beging with (much more iron, Natrium, Clorine, Sulphur, and nitrogen) and it had a tendency to "be all over the place" because it can react with a lot of elements or molecules. Which usually does not make for many or good mining spots where it would be in a uniform compound or concentrated. The wars of the future might be about phosphor. So it was good to squander less of it on detergents. But the machine builders had to adjust the tech to the new detergents. Phosphor did work well for the washing / stain removal purposes. To make water less hard (that comes from a lot of callcium in the water, many regions have hard water). Hard water reduces the washing result, dishwashers use salt to get softer water.
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@Imix Muan Don't put down Europe - If you mean solar thermal panels those were in the experimental DIY stage during the 1970s oil crisis (farmers and home owners in Germany and Austria got creative considering high costs of all energy). I think the Southern European countries that have better conditions caught on later, but if they had tourists it paid off. They needed the most warm water when there was lots of sun .... The thermal solar panels became more mainstream during the 1980s some went as far as trying to support warm water production for heating in fall and winter. But even a fairly regular sized installation would heat up the water to a decent degree (60 even 65 degree C) if it was sunny and not bitterly cold (of course with help of a larger water tank, that is just a given in the temperate climate zone, doesn't work well w/o). Also for public pools (there they could use a very cheap version, because it is emptied at the end of the season, does not have to be frost proof. It did not have to be fance, just to lift the water temperature. Those panels were around for a long time, the idea to get electrictiy from solar panels seemed to be exotic.
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Fascinating !
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