Comments by "jeppen" (@jesan733) on "UsefulCharts"
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@nutzhazel "So in which version of history that you lived in that there's already a big Christians community in the pagan Arabs?"
I never said there was a single big christian community around. I said there were plenty christians around. E.g. when M first encountered Gabriel, this hadith ensued:
Narrated `Aisha:
The Prophet (ﷺ) returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospels in Arabic Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly."
So a cousin of Khadija was a christian, reading the gospels in arabic, and happily believed Muhammad immediately.
"And what did they do exactly outside of their Romans and Greek sphere?"
What do believers do? The believe, I guess.
"And how does Trinity actually represent a monotheist God?"
This is mostly a problem in the minds of muslims. For almost everybody else, there's no problem that god has a few different manifestations depending on circumstances.
"Do you think the pagan Arabs would even care to hear about a 3 in 1 God"
It has worked quite well with pagans all over the world, considering christianity is the largest religion.
"And to even claim that as a monotheist faith like the Jews has to the Pagan Arabs?"
What are you trying to say here?
"And you're saying that a man from pagan Arabs made up a religion of a monotheist god like the Jews so that the Arabs can also be the Romans Christians footstool like the Jews?"
As I said, monotheism was clearly a powerful tool, and he did his best to attract all "people of the book". And he did well, the strategy worked.
"When they were already rich and happy trading idols with the Romans and the Hindus and the Buddhist?"
Trading idols? What are you on about? And rich? They were in the backwater of the civilized world. They united under the banner of a new monotheistic sect, and luckily could expand swiftly due to the Romans and Sassanids just having fought a world war, and thus being exhausted and resource depleted.
"And somehow in that religion, they also claim that Jesus is not a God, and there is no Trinity, but only One God, and you called that copying from the Christians?"
Christians also claim there's just one god, and christians at the time, and especially in those backwaters, were much more fractured in terms of theology, literary canon and so on. There's extreme amounts of evidence he copied from christianity and did so with fairly shallow knowledge.
"If you can't follow logic or be consistent in your argument"
Dude, you think you're smart, but even if you are, you simply know too little about history and critical literary studies.
"Go find any pagans and polytheist groups and go tell them to worship One God alone and see if that works."
Again, it has worked pretty well historically, partly due to the power of the message, partly due to the cohesion of monotheists who can simply conquer the more disunited polytheists.
"A Christian preacher was shot by an arrow at the Sentinel Island for doing just that, and he didn't even start his preaching yet."
So that's completely irrelevant.
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@Mariyah1722 "It actually takes a genius, well read expert in science to see the truth in Quran."
How do you know? Are you that genius well read expert in science? What's your highest educational degree in science?
" Embroyologists have themselves confirmed the accuracy of 7th century Quran in detailing the stages of embroyology."
You're talking about Moore, a guy who was paid by Saudi royalty to say a few nice things about the quran and allow them to edit his embryology textbook? There was some additional guy, an Egyptian also paid by the Saudis, I forget his name. If we look beyond these two bribed guys, embryologists and historians recognize that the quranic embryology matches that of Galen of Pergamon, an ancient greek physician, who conducted experiments and autopsies on animals. However the author of the quran (and Galen) didn't understand the concept of the female egg, instead believing the embryo grows from the sperm. Also the whole idea of bones being clothed with flesh and other things are stuff that you need to do mental gymnastics to fit into reality.
"You are either shamelessly lying or you only HEARD one verse out of many verses about embryo development as usually unread copy pasters do ."
All you guys react like that to any criticism, always, because you convince each other that people outside your sect are unread or liars. But I'm sorry, I've read it all, and I've heard all your scholarly defenses, and I honestly conclude that the quran is based on 7th century understanding, not divine understanding. And it's very, very easy to see for an outsider, and also very, very hard for an insider to see. You have to step out of your sectarian bubble for a while, start questioning the scholarly defenses, and start asking and thinking "why".
"There are recorded clips of embroyologists confirming this."
Again, two deceased bribed guys. Do you have anyone alive who's not a muslim who says that?
"Quran never calls earth flat, this is again a baseless lie spread by actual flat earthers who ere embarassed by their own religious scriptures like hindus."
A large number of passages in the quran indicates that it is flat. Of course it's possible to make other interpretations. The problem is that you have to make other interpretations than the natural one in so many cases!
"All these misinformations on Quran have already been clarified."
Yes, of course. After all, your scholars are the repair and maintenance crews of the religion. But those who have sharp eyes and minds see the rust underneath the paint jobs. You can see it too.
"Yet some of you are unable to digest the facts and want to preserve the lies as it feels good to islamophobes."
That's the mindset of anyone in a sect: Everybody are against us, outsiders are bad. Just befriend fellow sect members.
"When you actually set out to read and learn, you see that Quran is never mistaken."
When you immerse yourself in the sectarian narratives and the apologetics of any religion, they're always right. If you step outside these bubbles and actually think, you find that they're horribly flawed.
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@Mariyah1722 "These have already been explained by various scholars"
I know, and that's exactly what I said. I asked rhetorically if it would help if I listed examples. I knew it wouldn't. Because you want to stay in the sect and you want to believe the scholarly defenses and explanations. For outsiders like me, what I listed is compelling (and there's a lot more e.g. in hadiths). I can bring up tons of other examples, e.g. geocentrism, but you'll just say "the orbit of the sun mentioned is a miracle talking about the sun's orbit around the galactic centre". Or I can bring the explanation for meteors in 67:5, but you'll just say "it's metaphysical, it cannot be disproven" and so on. For you, the repairs needs to make sense, so they do. For people outside the sect like me who are free to judge the information without worrying about the consequences on our social life, without the need to justify previously made investments into the faith and so on, it easily disproves the quran.
"Quran speaks to a person in simplest language. Does a lay man speak in scientific terminology?"
God didn't need to formulate himself in ways that would be interpreted by all outsiders in the 21th century that he only had access to 7th century science. And why did he create man from clay? A god shouldn't need a raw material, and especially not the human raw material used to shape things. And if he created man specifically from clay, why did he make a very slightly modified ape with abundant genetic evidence of common ancestry and evolution? Have you asked yourself these questions? And if you do, do you just run to scholars and become satisfied with whatever they tell you? Or will you just say "I don't know why god used clay to make a slight genetical variation of ape, I just trust it was a good decision."?
"Why exactly will a spiritual book of guidance for every human from any field of study will care to put down how central nervous system makes one think or how earth is spherical in shape."
Why not? But more importantly, why make a scripture that is most naturally interpreted as flat earthist and geocentric? Because it should be easy to apostatize?
"but still anyone who has knowledge in those fields will understand the point being made in Quran and how it accurately describes for a common man what they know as a scientist"
Not at all. E.g. a biologist will not see the quran as accurate. Life is made from carbon, not water, humans aren't made from clay, we evolved. Not all organisms are created in pairs. The gender of a baby isn't decided late, as the quran suggest (along with other faulty embryology). And so on.
"That is why Allah says in Quran, "We have made this Quran, easy to understand"."
But a lot of it is incomprehensible, especially without tafsir.
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@nutzhazel "So which part again that is a match to both the Christians and the Jews in 6th century and even today?"
So you're saying that if modifications are made, then it's not plagiarization? That's a, well, strange position to take.
"The only monotheist group was the Jews"
And the Christians.
"The rest of the world including the Greeks and the Romans were just pagans and polytheist."
Again, the Greeks and Romans were christians, thus monotheists.
"Don't act like Asia or America or Australia or South America or the African continent didn't exist."
How is this relevant? Australia and America were unknown. From M's vantage point, abrahamitic monotheism was powerful and on the rise. It was clever to build on that and he did. He essentially created a new christian sect with, for its time, smart governance, higher cohesion and more incentives for conquest.
"They were all Pagans and Polytheist just the Arabs."
Yeah, and they largely fell to monotheism eventually, with the exception of a population-dense part of Asia.
"Even the Romans just switched the pagan gods with another idols of crosses and statues of Mary and Jesus."
Having statues doesn't mean you're pagan.
"So tell me again, who in their right mind would want to call to the very unpopular belief to worship One Monotheist God when basically the rest of the world still basking in idolatry?"
Your contention is based on the faulty and quite silly sectarian idea that the Holy Roman Empire wasn't monotheist, and that the political power of monotheism wasn't apparent for intelligent observers. Muslims kindof cheered for the Romans in their war against the Sassanids since the Romans were people of the book. Again, M did his very best to woo jews and christians, being quite tolerant in treating them compared to pagans.
"Is there even any point in calling for people to worship a God, and just One God alone in the middle of people worshipping idols and profitting from the idols making business?"
Yes, obviously. It worked, and it had worked for the christians in the Roman Empire. Also, you're deluded if you think the "idol making business" was a large sector of the economy.
"Not only that, that man even angered the Jews by calling out their rejection of Jesus as a Prophet and Messenger of God, and even blame the Jews for corrupting their own scriptures."
Quran 5:46:
We sent ‘Īsā son of Maryam after those prophets, confirming the Torah that was (revealed) before him, and We gave him the Injīl having guidance and light therein, and confirming the Torah that was (revealed) before it; a guidance and a lesson for the God-fearing.
So Muhammad did his best to play nice with jews and christians.
"Not only angering the Jews, that man also angered 2 mighty empires of Roman and Greek by telling them that your God is One Only and He is not Jesus?"
Just stop it. Greece was part of the Roman Empire. And M had his more immediate surroundings to work with. Doesn't matter what he does in relation to the Romans.
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@أحمدصقر-ه5ع "I already studied embryology in my first medical year"
Good, then you know the quranic embryology is flawed, not knowing about the female egg, believing sperm is a seed that grows. You can also see the other nonsense about bones being clothed with flesh.
"Religion and science aren't 2 conflicting things ."
Islam and science are. Evolution and common descent are proven but the quran says humans were specifically created. Night and day is caused by the earth's spin, but the quran believes it's due to the sun's orbit. And so on.
"Don't give me advice about critical thinking . You are the one to leave your biased opinions and start again ?"
I'm unbiased as an outsider. You however are immersed in a sectarian hoax.
"That aside What is your religion ?"
I don't have one.
"Secondly , How quran in flawed ? Give me example ."
You can have hundreds of examples. Just go to some anti-islamic website like wikiislam, and you'll get loads of them.
"Thirdly , you are trying to convince yourself that billions of people who believed in Muhammad don't think"
They don't critically analyze their religion and their sectarian narratives. Those who do apostatize.
"and you are the one who will enlighten us ."
No, I asked you to enlighten yourself. You have to do the work. I can give a few pointers, but as long as you desire to believe scholarly repairs and islamic narratives, you can't be helped. You need to desire truth and learn to apply critical and analytical thinking to your own religion.
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@alexwharf "the Qur'an speaks on history, discipline, moral values, way to lead a just and successful living"
And largely fails, because what it teaches is quite fixed and has become uncompetitive in terms of governance, societal organization and morals.
"about science such as big bang, origin of life, growth of foetus to a baby inside the womb, sun as a burning light while moon as borrowed light, ascend the sky up higher and one will suffocate, mountains are like pegs, and much more"
And it's mostly scientific errors. Geocentrism, flat earthism, faulty embryology, cosmic egg mythology and so on. It's solidly 7th century stuff.
"As the people brought about additions, fabrications, interpolations, extrapolations, etc to the original texts of God according to their desired way, these revelations from God lost their originality."
Strange that A didn't ensure uncorruptedness from the start, only choosing to introduce it only in the 7th century. Strange also that he left no forward clues in earlier scriptures, indicating that M would come, that the Kaaba is important and so on.
"Any human can write several books at different times and with repeating or few similar stories. would you then also do your dissection and conclude that the last book was copied from his earlier books?"
If you analyze the works seriously, the most natural conclusion is that the quran plagiarizes earlier works using fairly shallow understanding.
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@stephenconnolly1830 "you question my belief in the miracles related according to the Qur'an, but fail to see the much greater leap of faith your belief is represented in a universe without a Creator"
Let's say you feel that you have to believe in a god-created universe, so you can't be atheist. Ok, fine. But the quran is still clearly undivine, as are other religions. So if you must believe in a god-created universe, then your only rational option is to be deist.
"Or, worse still, a Creator who brings the universe into being and continually makes it tick along while failing to communicate to the one sentient creation with free will, man, the guidance needed for them to conduct their lives properly(!)."
Perhaps he wants us to find it for ourselves, e.g. by embracing utilitarianism after sufficient moral maturation? Or perhaps he doesn't have an opinion about what it would mean to "live properly"?
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@Mariyah1722 I can list quranic verses, but does it help? For flat earthism, we have:
2:22: [He] who made for you the earth a bed [spread out] and the sky a ceiling and sent down from the sky, rain and brought forth thereby fruits as provision for you. So do not attribute to Allah equals while you know [that there is nothing similar to Him].
15:19: As for the earth, We spread it out and placed upon it firm mountains, and caused everything to grow there in perfect balance.
20:53: [It is He] who has made for you the earth as a bed [spread out] and inserted therein for you roadways and sent down from the sky, rain and produced thereby categories of various plants.
43:10: [The one] who has made for you the earth a bed and made for you upon it roads that you might be guided
50:7: And the earth - We spread it out and cast therein firmly set mountains and made grow therein [something] of every beautiful kind,
51:48: As for the earth, We spread it out. How superbly did We smooth it out!1
71:19: And Allah ˹alone˺ spread out the earth for you
91:6: and the earth and ˹the One˺ Who spread it!
18:47: And [warn of] the Day when We will remove the mountains and you will see the earth exposed,1 and We will gather them and not leave behind from them anyone.
20:105-107: And ˹if˺ they ask you ˹O Prophet˺ about the mountains, ˹then˺ say, “My Lord will wipe them out completely, leaving the earth level and bare, with neither depressions nor elevations to be seen.”
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@davidalbert5425 I hope you see the instructions I just posted. Here I'll add the rest of my comment that you don't see:
"let me see where you mentioned any of the claims you made in your comment"
I didn't say we covered exactly the topics mentioned in this subthread, but you talked in general "bring all those old already debunked arguments and let's see if you can stand the storm" and it seemed relevant that I had done some of that.
"if you have been gifted 50min which is nearly one hour"
You're quite gifted to recognize that 50min is nearly one hour. However, also quite entitled to say that I was "gifted" the time. To my mind, I gifted them my time so that they could produce some content. I also waited for 2h to get on. And in retrospect, I don't really feel it was worth it.
"shouldn't have the audacity to talk about hamza kicking out people"
Well, he does. He looks for reasons to do so and as far as I have seen, he very rarely wraps up conversations with opposition in a respectful manner with the exchange of a few polite words. I think his behaviour is quite off-putting.
"because usually only those who talk to argue or go in circles are the ones who get kicked out"
Seriously? The stream is about arguing, and even if you go in circles, Hamza could say "ok, we're going in circles so we need to move on, thanks for your call" and then allow for the caller to say "thanks for having me" or something similar. Not just disconnect.
"Especially after what you said in the last partfof your past comment lol!"
People who lol or use emojis in discussions such as these aren't very bright, I've noticed. You might want to consider not doing that.
"Keep dreaming that you refute islam, nobody could for almost two thousand years."
No religion has ever been refuted in the eyes of its remaining believers, but I would say all ex-muslims, whether closeted or not, have refuted islam. Should easily be hundreds of million who've done this.
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@alexwharf ""fixed, uncompetitive". please elaborate on that as i, till date, have never encountered any of those aspects."
About 25% of the global population belongs to your religion, but its adherents hold around 6% of global wealth. Also the geopolitical strength and positive influences on culture and science is currently all insignificant. Thus uncompetitive. If you don't think islam is fixed, you're not very mainstream.
"Another thing you said scientific errors, what are those?"
Why do you ask, considering I listed a few of them. If you want more, just google it.
"tell me any verse in the Qur'an which is not in line with the established science (i said establishes science and not some unproven theories, postulates)."
Well, 15:26 says humans are made specifically, but it's proven that we have evolved as part of common origin. 67:5 has a completely pseudoscientific explanation for meteors. 31:29 is geocentric. And so on.
"another thing, tell me where in Qur'an is it written that the earth is flat as i haven't read till date."
I'm sure you know about them, and you know the scholarly mental gymnastics that's made to make these verses into something else. Right?
"who interfered with the original texts? and why?"
E.g. for christianity, there was no original text, Jesus didn't dictate any. And why do you ask? If you're interested from an academic perspective, then go ahead and find some curriculum in a western university that covers these aspects. If you do look into your own religion, you'll apostatize.
"do we have a single person who memorised the bible, torah, vedas, etc."
Why do you ask? Memorization isn't evidence for anything.
"regarding the final messenger of God, it's written in Bible, vedas and many other scriptures. if you want to learn I'll show you the texts."
I've seen the claims and references. They're wrong and very far-fetched. You have to be an insider to find them compelling. Outsiders won't.
"and you should give proper explanation within the context in the light of sacred scriptues that what you said is true. otherwise, it will simply be termed as accusations, allegation or hatred."
This statement of yours is just a wholesale rejection of reason.
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@Mariyah1722 problem is that I have presented evidence and arguments, and as a response, you project, saying:
"My words are simply echoed back to me, not reaching your head at all because they meet a thick layer hardened propaganda poop."
So, it seems I can't help you. You have to stay in your overgrown sect, indoctrinating your children just as you were indoctrinated, telling each other all the various narratives of why we're not believing, that we're dishonest and lack intellectual integrity, that Allah has put a wall between us and the quran and so on. It's utterly stupid, but as you're indoctrinated, of course it makes sense to you.
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@itsMahran "Third , the Quran corrected alot of Scientific and historical fact were in the bibal and towrah and zobor"
No, it didn't.
"Lastly, if Waraqah was meeting with the prophet several times why the mekkahn idol worshipers didn’t say anything about that and why they never talked about that because they were waiting any mistake from the prophet to talk about,"
He had other helpers that they did talk about, and people generally understood that he was plagiarizing and making stuff up.
E.g. Quran 6:25 says: "The disbelievers would even come to argue with you, saying, “This ˹Quran˺ is nothing but ancient fables!”.
Also one account mentioned by 8th-century Quran story teller, Muqatil ibn Sulayman: "The apostle used to sit at al-Marwa at the booth of a young Christian called Jabr, slave of Banu I-Hadrami, and they used to say; 'The one who teaches Muhammad most of what he brings is Jabr the Christian, slave of the Banu I-Hadrami. Similar accounts mention a slave of the Banu I-Hadrami while not the name Jabr specifically."
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