Comments by "Sasha S" (@sashas3362) on "VICE News" channel.

  1. 2
  2. 2
  3. 1
  4. 1
  5. 1
  6. 1
  7. I don't get how reforming s230 would make platforms responsible for content posted by users instead of the users themselves. Platforms SHOULD lose s230 protection if they act as publishers. Only if platforms remain neutral should they be protected by s230. But if they begin to censor content or act as a publisher of content in any way such as through editing or censorship then they should NOT be protected by s230. Why is this so hard for people to understand that they think reforming s230 means taking away the protection of s230 from everyone instead of only those platforms which censor and edit? Here you got somebody from internet archive claiming they may be forced to censor content stored in their archive because they could be held liable as a publisher since they selectively curate content. But internet archive could simply become part of the new internet (web 3.0) which uses technologies such as IPFS to prevent censorship or other loss of content on the web. The only difference is you wouldn't be directing your browser to internet archive's or wayback machine's website to find the archived data. Instead you'd essentially direct your search engine to the original website (URL) where the content was originally located (except the "https://" would be replaced with "ipfs://", for example). This may soon become the standard and would make the internet archive project and it's "wayback machine" obsolete (which is great since the internet archive is centralized and there is no way to know whether the websites it curates haven't been altered in any way). Of course IPFS itself doesn't eliminate the problem of the data being altered either but at least it decentralizes the data. Alas, IPFS isn't the only technology being implemented to combat censorship or other loss of content on the web. There are similar but superior technologies (such as holonet) although they have not yet become as widely adopted as IPFS because they are still in development.
    1
  8. 1
  9. 1
  10. 1
  11.  @Euphoniumstar  s230 is an extension of telecommunications laws which require the telecommunications providers (such as ISP's) to be neutral and refrain from interfering with the delivery of communications. s230 is not the whole of the law but rather a section or subsection of a greater law and also a greater set of telco laws. Research the topic more deeply and you will find what I am saying to be true. Aside from that the fact is you need to understand the intent behind a law's creation to properly interpret it. The creation of s230 was created to make clear that platforms such as twitter should not be held liable for content hosted by them in the same way that other telcos are not held liable for the information relayed by them. Prior to the passage of s230 it was not clear whether websites such as twitter should be granted the same immunity from liability for communications relayed by them. s230 was NEVER intended to allow for hosts/platforms to censor content outside of cases allowed for by the good samaritan clause such as copyright infringement or other illegal/criminal content. In fact, the good samaritan clause was added as an afterthought if I remember correctly and not a part of the original text of the drafted law. If I remember correctly, s230 wasn't originally part of the Online Decency Act (ODA) but was grafted onto the ODA from some other drafted law or amendment to a law such as one of the telco laws. I could be wrong about that but it doesn't matter. Such detaills aside, the undisputable fact here (IMO) is: telco laws require neutrality of the communications they host. That is where the concept of "net neutrality" came from. Ever heard of "net neutrality"? You probably believe there is no law guaranteeing net neutrality too, don't you? The fact is censorship is illegal. Some people say it's only illegal when done by gov. But they don't know what they are talking about IMO. Yes, a cable TV company can be selective about what channels they carry (in total or for a given price). But that isn't the same as censoring some of the content carried by them. Understand?
    1
  12. 1
  13.  @Euphoniumstar  Not to change the subject but look what is going on with open carry of firearms now. A 9th circuit court in hawaii decided there is NO right to open carry of firearms. Previous court decisions had determined there was a right to open carry (in public) but no right to concealed carry. I won't be surprised if it is later decided that there is a right to concealed carry after all but no right to open carry (in public). Most people don't feel comfortable with somebody openly carrying a firearm in public and it poses a threat to one's safety to open carry so actually isn't the best choice if one is truly trying to defend themself with a gun (because it makes them a target of criminals who might actually be planning on using a gun in a public space). Aside from that until DC vs Heller case history (in addition to history itself) had established that the 2nd amendment did NOT guarantee an individual right to keep and bear arms. Yet, years of case history were ignored in the DC v Heller ruling. That is because the intent/meaning of a law can be evaluated or re-evaluated for each case in courts of statutory law. It's claimed that only in so-called common law courts does case history invariably determine how laws are interpeted forever after. So it doesn't matter if previous court decisions decided telcos can censor content outside of what the good samaritan law allows for because that decision is simply ignorant of the law (IMO). Telco laws forbid censorship beyond good samaritan exceptions. IMO even good samaritan exceptions shouldn't be allowed. Only courts should have the right to rule whether content should be censored. Prior to any court decision there should be no censorship. But how do you deal with for example somebody anonymously uploading live video of child abuse? We cannot allow such content to remain online until a court decides that it should be removed, can we? Such content must be stopped, right? Perhaps this points out the need for evolution of our legal system to allow for more rapid response. For example, allow for the public to censor content in a democratic manner. That is actually what some platforms are doing. If a sufficient number of viewers flag content as offensive then it is hidden. Ai is also being used to aid in identifying offending content although that method hasn't proven to be reliable yet as far as I know. But Ai may prove to make more accurate judgements than humans someday. Google's Ai seems to be more of a hoax IMO. It's "artificial stupidity" designed to create hatred of Ai as opposed to actual artificial INTELLIGENCE. It can't even accurately generate closed caption text using speech recognition to text converters because it doesn't take into consideration other words or context. It merely translates each word independently ignoring context. How stupid is that?
    1
  14.  @Euphoniumstar  Did I say s230 was intended to enforce neutrality? I certainly never meant s230 was intended to ENFORCE neutrality. I only meant that it was intended to ALLOW for neutrality. Are you going to deny that s230 was intended to allow for neutrality (without punishment) by it's authors? I have a hard time believing you'd expect you could convince anyone that s230 was never intended to allow for neutrality (when it says a host shall not be regarded as a publisher of content created by 3rd party users of it's services). As I explained, it is the whole of the telco laws which s230 is part of which require neutrality. Clearly s230 itself is not where the requirement for neutrality comes from since it allows for so-called good samaritan censorship. The good samaritan clause does not say that content must be illegal to be subject to censorship allowed by the good samaritan clause does it? But it seems obvious to me that the good samaritan clause was only ever intended to allow for censorship of illegal content. Otherwise it would be a violation of the 1st amendment right to free speech. The fact that the good samaritan clause was intended only for illegal content should be clear because it was drawn from earlier similar laws which allowed telcos to censor illegal content. But such illegal content includes profanity and obscenity. You see, profanity and obscenity are illegal under federal law and are not considered protected by the 1st amendment right to free speech. This is why you have FCC laws which prohibit verbal profanity on the airwaves. That is thanks to court decisions wherein it was decided obscenity is illegal. But it seems obvious to me that such court decisions are a clear violation of the 1st amendment right to free speech. After all, isn't the right to free speech also a right to offend? Yet, courts decided that it is illegal to be offensive. Hence the FCC laws prohibiting profanity. Yes, you do hear and see profanity on TV and radio productions deliberarely planned by the creators at times but that is because exceptions are allowed to an extent within certain limits (at least these days). Cable TV companies were only able to get away with hosting profane and obscene content because it wasn't broadcast (unencrypted) over the airwaves so wasn't subject to those FCC rules. Aside from that, cable TV was bound by the aforementioned neutral delivery laws which telcos must conform to. Are you a minor? I should ask before I continue saying what I want to say here (otherwise I risk getting into possible trouble).
    1
  15. 1
  16. 1
  17. 1
  18. 1
  19. 1
  20.  @Euphoniumstar  Section 230 does NOT cover non-neutrality. It doesn't say a platform/host can be biased. Although it does allow for censorship guided by good samaritan principles that is not the same as overtly allowing for censorship purely due to bias. Yes, the good samaritan censorship does allow for bias to also guide censorship decisions and one's beliefs can lead one to erroneously believe opposing viewpoints pose a threat to public safety. But if you asked the authors of s230 if the intent of the good samaritan censorship clause was to allow for biased censorship I'm sure they would deny it and insist it was only intended to protect people from genuine harm. Or do you believe there was some conspiracy between the authors and facebook, twitter, youtube, reddit, etc to censor certain groups when s230 was written? If you ask me the good samaritan clause was written without any bias intended in it's deployment because it allows for anybody with any beliefs to take advantage of it. In other words, it arms all sides with an excuse to censor. But only if they can make a convincing argument that their decision to censor was genuinely guided by good samaritan principles meaning to prevent harm and promote the general welfare of the community. You keep arguing that s230 allows for censorship but it only allows for censorship when there are good samaritan reasons for it. Aside from that I keep explaining to you that the telco laws forbid censorship for any reason except for good samaritan reasons such as in cases of illegal content or other content which is deemed harmful. Are you going to keep ignoring that point? If so I will have to ignore you because I don't have time to waste. Alas, there is one point which we haven't discussed and that is the fact that the terms of service for facebook, google, youtube, etc allow for them to ban or censor anyone who violates their terms. You agree to being censored and banned when you agree to those terms and/or use their service. So there can be no punishment for their censorship or banning unless it can be proven that it was either somehow in violation of their own terms or illegal. With Trump's EO 13925 it was declared that facebook and twitter were the new townsquare and that these platforms must be unbiased in their censorship and banning the same way police must be unbiased in deciding when to remove people for expressing themselves in the town square. Has EO 13925 been repealed or somehow neutered by the courts? If not then it is still in effect, isn't it? The telco laws which require neutrality in delivery of the data hosted by telcos certainly still requires neutrality (at least last time I checked).
    1
  21. 1
  22.  @Euphoniumstar  It doesn't matter what that particular author (wyden) intended. What matters is what those who passed the act into law intended it to accomplish. You see, the law is ultimately written by congress rather than any single individual (because it is subject to revision as deemed necessary by congress or at least those in favor of it). You cite a quote from senator wyden pulled from a CNN article. I won't bother to bring up the issue of CNN's questionable reputation as a biased fake news agency. Sen wyden may have said what he was quoted as saying but he's a democrat and no doubt would like a weapon of censorship to be used against conservatives/republicans. Yet the sort of free speech he seems to believe to be protected by the 1st amendment is not necessarily actually protected by the 1st amendment and it does fall under the sort of offensive and harmful content which the good samaritan law allows censorship of. Back to the original topic: if you want to find the telco neutrality laws I'm referring to then simply look for articles which explain how s230 relates to the net neutrality laws which themselves are an extension of the anti-discrimination laws of earlier telco laws. You'll find all the relevant laws in the following biased articles: https://blakereid.org/section-230-as-telecom-law/ https://blakereid.org/section-230-of-what/ Those articles seem to lean in favor of an interpretation which regards s230 as exempt from the "anti-discrimination" laws which require telcos to be neutral. But such a conclusion is either part of an attempt to mislead or a result of confusion due to the shell game played by moving s230 around into different laws and such. It fails to clearly explain s230's position within the law but it seems clear to me. As the article clearly explains, s230 is part of the original Communications Act of 1934 which is where you will find the precursor to the net neutrality laws in the form of a requirement for telcos to be neutral in their delivery of communications hosted by them. You may need to research the net neutrality laws to see why I say that because the above cited articles do not reveal all the facts about net neutrality IMO. Unfortunately I don't have time to write an article on the topic myself for you here at this time. Otherwise I may end up homeless if I waste any more time on this conversation. Maybe another day I can write that article. You will simply need to do your own research from here. I will end this by saying if people don't like censorship there are censorship resistant alternatives out there. We don't need gov to protect people from online censorship. People need to start protecting themselves. Good luck.
    1
  23.  @Euphoniumstar  What I meant about wyden's intent when writing (the amendment to) s230 not mattering is that what really matters is the interpretation of congress because it is congress which ultimately created it not merely wyden. There are many bills which started out as one thing but ended up something different. So the intent of the author is irrelevant. What matters is what congress intended. Actually what ultimately matters is what the gov in general (FCC, courts, etc) believe it's intended meaning is. I shared those links despite the fact that at least one leans in favor of the belief that s230 doesn't require neutrality because it does give both sides of the argument along with enough of the facts to help you find the truth if you look into it yourself. They also make it clear that s230 is part of the telco laws I mentioned. I didn't have time to look for better articles. My understanding is that the telco laws do require those hosting the communications to exercise neutrality otherwise they become a publisher and therefore can be regarded as a publisher and creator of content hosted by them which can be held liable. Yes, when trump's pick for FCC chairman ajit pai(?) ended net neutrality that may have put an end to the interpretation of s230 and the telco laws requiring social media platforms to be neutral by avoiding censorship of legal content. Quite ironic isn't it? As I said, we don't need the gov to protect us from censorship. There are censorship resistant alternatives. But these aren't free. They run on cryptocurrency. They can be effectively free since you get paid for using them. But you must spend some of that crypto to use them too. What if the gov makes crypto illegal? I doubt the gov can make NFT's (Non-Fungible Tokens) illegal though. Those are like crypto but they are actually more like digital art. Cryptokitties for example. The only way the gov could make them illegal is if they make digital art illegal. The Chinese gov might be able to get away with making NFT's illegal (someday if they haven't already) but I doubt that will ever happen in the USA. Knock on wood. I said the covid19 lockdowns which happened in china would never happen here. But look what happened. So never say never. BTW offensive and harmful content is not regarded as protected by the 1st amendment. Obscenity is illegal and so yelling fire in a crowded theater or verbally threatening to physically harm someone. None of that is regarded as protected by the 1st amendment. Some porn is actually illegal believe it or not. But I don't know how old you are so probably shouldn't get into details about that so will end it there. TTYL perhaps.
    1
  24. 1
  25.  @Euphoniumstar  The definition of ISP and "common carier" is undeniably changing due to decentralization. The distinction between an ISP and the data carried by a website has also changed due to VPN's. Things like web 3.0 browser dapps are further blurring the distinction. So you now have "common carriers" which run on top of the internet. Common carriers running atop the services provided by other common carriers. The distinction between a website (whether it be a social media platform) and an ISP because both carry/deliver 3rd party data/information/content has become blurred. Facebook, twitter, youtube, etc are "common carriers" because they host/carry/deliver 3rd party data. Of course, facebook etc can legally censor if you are warned about that in their terms of service and you agree to it. ISP's could do the same though. But the fact is that the terms of service can be changed at any time. This poses a problem because you could lose valuable data and digital assets such as intellectual property or legal documents such as evidence if the terms are changed and data is deleted or you are banned. It isn't realistic to try to prevent terms of service from being changed in general. They have a right to change their terms. The only realistic option to protect the public from being harmed by losing valuable data due to censorship is for the gov to enforce neutrality of common carriers. People can use censorship resistant platforms and technologies but even then there is no guarantee valuable data won't be deleted or access to it lost. Having gov ban censorship by all "common carriers" including websites like facebook twitter youtube etc is a good way to protect ourselves from loss of valuable data. It adds to the protection provided by the censorship resistant options.
    1
  26. 1
  27. 1
  28. 1
  29.  @Euphoniumstar  You see/hear justice clarence thomas' opinion on whether social media platforms and other online platforms are "common carriers" (or "public accomodations"), issued yesterday? Very revealing and may spell the end of censorship by big tech in online platforms open to the public. Here are some excerpts: "If part of the problem is private, concentrated control over online content and platforms available to the public, then part of the solution may be found in doctrines that limit the right of a private company to exclude. Historically, at least two legal doctrines limited a company’s right to exclude. "First, our legal system and its British predecessor have long subjected certain businesses, known as common carriers, to special regulations, including a general requirement to serve all comers. Candeub, Bargaining for Free Speech: Common Carriage, Network Neutrality, and Section 230, 22 Yale J. L. & Tech. 391, 398–403 (2020) (Candeub) see also Burdick, The Origin of the Peculiar Duties of Public Service Companies, Pt. 1, 11 Colum. L. Rev. 514 (1911). "Justifications for these regulations have varied. Some scholars have argued that common-carrier regulations are justified only when a carrier possesses substantial market power. Candeub 404. Others have said that no substantial market power is needed so long as the company holds itself out as open to the public. Ibid.; see also Ingate v. Christie, 3 Car. & K. 61, 63, 175 Eng. Rep. 463, 464 (N. P. 1850) (“[A] person [who] holds himself out to carry goods for everyone as a business . . . is a common carrier”). "And this Court long ago suggested that regulations like those placed on common carriers may be justified, even for industries not historically recognized as common carriers, when “a business, by circumstances and its nature, . . . rise[s] from private to be of public concern.” See German Alliance Ins. Co. v. Lewis, 233 U. S. 389, 411 (1914) (affirming state regulation of fire insurance rates). At that point, a company’s “property is but its instrument, the means of rendering the service which has become of public interest.” Id., at 408. "This latter definition of course is hardly helpful, for most things can be described as “of public interest.” But whatever may be said of other industries, there is clear historical precedent for regulating transportation and communications networks in a similar manner as traditional common carriers. Candeub 398–405. Telegraphs, for example, because they “resemble[d] railroad companies and other common carriers,” were “bound to serve all customers alike, without discrimination.” Primrose v. Western Union Telegraph Co., 154 U. S. 1, 14 (1894). "In exchange for regulating transportation and communication industries, governments—both State and Federal—have sometimes given common carriers special government favors. Candeub 402–407. For example, governments have tied restrictions on a carrier’s ability to reject clients to “immunity from certain types of suits”3 or to regulations that make it more difficult for other companies to compete with the carrier (such as franchise licenses). Ibid. By giving these companies special privileges, governments place them into a category distinct from other companies and closer to some functions, like the postal service, that the State has traditionally undertaken. "Second, governments have limited a company’s right to exclude when that company is a public accommodation. This concept—related to common-carrier law—applies to companies that hold themselves out to the public but do not “carry” freight, passengers, or communications. See, e.g., Civil Rights Cases, 109 U. S. 3, 41–43 (1883) (Harlan, J., dissenting) (discussing places of public amusement). It also applies regardless of the company’s market power. See, e.g., 78 Stat. 243, 42 U. S. C. §2000a(a). "...The similarities between some digital platforms and common carriers or places of public accommodation may give legislators strong arguments for similarly regulating digital platforms." -End Quote I believe you will find the full opinion here: https://www.supremecourt.gov/orders/courtorders/040521zor_3204.pdf
    1
  30. 1