Comments by "" (@neutronalchemist3241) on "Military Aviation History"
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"The torpedo they used was of British design".
Err... No. Whitehead Torpedo had a British name only, it was not a British design. Whitehead Torpedo means that it was made in the "Silurificio Whitehead" of Fiume ( Rijeka), a factory that was estabilished in 1875, when Fiume was in Austria-Hungary, using a torpedo design of Giovanni Lupis.
The factory kept on designing original torpedos before and after it was passed to Italy at the end of WWI. Beside that, the torpedos the Italian used were indifferently Whitehead or SI (Silurificio Italiano "Italian Torpedo Factory", of Naples), whose torpedos were of different design than Whitehead, altough of similar performances.
"They themself would not probably want to do it"
But the same Germans used throughout the war (even in torpedo bombing operations in the Mediterranean, until spring 1943) the Heinkel He 111, another '30s design, that was inferior to the SM79 both in raw performances and ability to absorb punishment. Simply the Germans were trained to believe in the superiority of their technology, and so, for them, the Italian machines had to be inferior, cause they were Italian.
Great review anyway! :D
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How the tests had been performed.
Five comparatives planned, four actually made.
N.1: FW190 vs. Macchi C.205N (notice, the C.205N and the C.205V were two completely different aircrafts). An exchange between pilots, with col. Tondi on the Fw 190A-5 (n.1163), and Hptm Behrens on the Macchi 205N (MM.499). First climbing to 8,000 meters, then fighting (with change of positions); then descend to 6,000 meters with a speed and combat test; then fight at 2,000 meters. The Fw 190 climbs better than the C.205N because the Macchi can't use full power due to the too small radiator (an easy fix, but those were still prototypes), In mockup fight at 8000 they were rougly equal. At 6,000 meters the FW190 is faster, and this helps a lot, because when the Macchi is in a good position (starting at the back of the German), the '190 sprints away. The FW190 was faster in sustained dive too.
N.2: FW190 vs. Fiat G55. G.55 piloted by Tondi (MM.492) against Hptm Behrens with the same '190. Same protocol. Faster takeoff for the G.55, similar initial climb, then the G.55 climbs better to 5,000 meters, and roughly equal to 8,000 meters. Dog-fight at 8000: the Fiat turns better, while the '190 is superior in roll (it was superior in roll to anything), although, at 8,000 meters, it was clearly lacking in power and lift. At 6,000 meters the '190 is 15km/h faster than the G55 (the FW190 had the max speed exactly at 6000m).
N.3: FW190 vs. Reggiane 2005. Ten.col. Baylon with Reggiane 2005, Behrens with Fw 190. In this test the climb to 8,000 meters was omitted. In the climb to 6000m, they were equivalent although the Reggiane couldn't use full power due to the small radiator (same as above); 'equivalent' in dogfight at 6,000 and 2,000 meters; in the speed test at 6000m, the Fw 190 is slightly faster.
N.4: Pilots' exchange Maj. Gasperi with the '109G, St. Ing. Beauvais, with the C.205V (MM.9288). The test had to be cancelled due to a problem to the hydraulic system of the Macchi's undercarriage.
N.5. Bf109G vs. G.55. This is the only one that sees the '109G-4 (pilot, Beauvais) as protagonist, this time against Gasperi's G.55. Standard protocol apart from the omission of the test at 2,000 meters, being the Germans evidently more interested in the high altitude capabilities of these fighters. The G.55 is faster in the first 2,000 meters of ascent, but not by much; the '109 is faster up to 5,000 meters, then the G.55 took the lead again to 8000m, but the differences were small in all cases. In dogfight, the G.55 was considered 'a little better' at all altitudes, the '109 was 'a little faster' at 6000m, And finally the dive test.
Both these two planes and the C.205V of the 'observer' Baylon participated in it: all three planes, proved to be equally fast.
So the German interest was justified. The G.55 was easily on par with the best they had, and better at high altitude, despite carrying more guns, ammos and fuel. More. The FW190 required 100 octane C3 fuel, that the Germans had in short supply. The Italians and the Bf109 used more easily available B4, 87 octane, fuel. But the Bf109 fuselage was already stretched by the DB605 engine. It couldn't carry more weight. While, with his larger wings, to install the DB603 in the Fiat G55 was almost plug and play.
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@WilliamJones-Halibut-vq1fs In may 1944 (so more than a year after this test), when the Germans reached the peak of their manufacturing ability andf the Bf109g was more than a year old, to assemble a Bf109g in a German plant required 9200 hrs for 50 aircrafts per month. 6500 hours for 200 aircrafts per month, 3800 hrs for 500 aircrafts per month.
In early 1943 the Bf109g required 6000hrs to be assembled, at best.
The early G.55 required 15000 hrs, but in full scale production (that for Fiat would have been around 200 aircrafts per month), it would have required 9000 hrs.
That made it an aircraft VERY SIMPLE to to manufacture, for WWII standards.
Infact, the Bf109 had been PARTICULARLY adapted for mass-production, cutting many corners.
For a Comparison, the Spitfire required from 13000 to 16000 hrs, depending on the variant.
The P-38 required 14800 hrs in jan. 1943, 9600 hrs in jan. 1944.
The P-47 required 22200 hrs in jan. 1943, 9100 hrs in jan. 1944.
And all those aircrafts were manufactured in very large scale.
The man-hours required to assemble a Macchi 202-205, determined contractually for the Breda plant, was of 18000 hours (22000 is an often repeated mistake) and the production was of around 100 aircrafts-month.
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In may 1944 (so more than a year after this test), when the Germans reached the peak of their manufacturing ability andf the Bf109g was more than a year old, to assemble a Bf109g in a German plant required 9200 hrs for 50 aircrafts per month. 6500 hours for 200 aircrafts per month, 3800 hrs for 500 aircrafts per month.
In early 1943 the Bf109g required 6000hrs to be assembled, at best.
The early G.55 required 15000 hrs, but in full scale production (that for Fiat would have been around 200 aircrafts per month), it would have required 9000 hrs.
That made it an aircraft VERY SIMPLE to to manufacture, for WWII standards.
Infact, the Bf109 had been PARTICULARLY adapted for mass-production, cutting many corners.
For a Comparison, the Spitfire required from 13000 to 16000 hrs, depending on the variant.
The P-38 required 14800 hrs in jan. 1943, 9600 hrs in jan. 1944.
The P-47 required 22200 hrs in jan. 1943, 9100 hrs in jan. 1944.
And all those aircrafts were manufactured in very large scale.
The man-hours required to assemble a Macchi 202-205, determined contractually for the Breda plant, was of 18000 hours (22000 is an often repeated mistake) and the production was of around 100 aircrafts-month.
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+josh hill And, in the best conditions, 1 for hour and 18 a day.
The Soviets produced up to 562 Mig-3 for month in a single plant in 1941 and 40 Il-2 a day after having moved the factories to the Urals, but obviously it was far easier to manufacture single engined aircrafts.
The Germans could deliver 300 Ju-88 a month, but the production of the parts was distributed throughout Germany, and the assembly was made in four different plants.
It has to be said that the Willow Run plant had the same "problem" of the Germans. In between, since when the production line had been estabilished and when it was in full production, several modifications to the B24 design had been approved, but the plant could not stop production to retool, so the brand new aircrafts took off from Willow Run only to be transferred to four modification plants, where the aircrafts were modified to current specs.
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The French air force was transitioning to a newer generation of aircraft (as had the Luftwaffe in 1937-38 and the RAF in 1938-39) . So the French were, having considerable difficulty in equipping squadrons with new aircrafts as well as maintaining operational ready rates. In early 1940, some French squadrons ran in-commission rates of barely 40 percent. In may 1940, the output had reached 619 combat aircraft per month produced in France (and 170 additional produced in the US on French orders). Therefore, France not only was outproducing Germany with modern combat aircrafts in this period but was the number 1 manufacturer in the world, unfortunately, it was too late.
Of their 28 Fighter groups:
16 had the obsolete Ms406, of which 8 were re-equipping with the Dewotine D520
4 had Hawk 75s
8 had Bloch 151 and 152s
Of those, on paper, only the D520 were able to compete with the Bf109e on equal terms. The Ms406 was manuverable but slow, the Curtiss Hawk was not much faster than the Ms406 and was underarmed and the Bloch 151, altough sturdy and well armed, was a very slow climber and had poor agility.
However, even in those conditions the French campaign had been incredibly costly for the Luftwaffe. 28% of its front line strength, 1401 aircrafts, were destroyed 672 were damaged, making 36% of the Luftwaffe strength lost or damaged. Luftwaffe's casualties amounted to 6,653 men, including 4,417 highly trained aircrew. All losses that costed dearly in the subsequent Battle of Britain. The single day in which the Luftwaffe lost more aircrafts in the entire war had been 10 may 1940, with 308 aircrafts lost in 24 hours. At the time of Dunkirk the Luftwaffe was near to exhaustion and the Allied gained air superiority, but the situation on the field was so compromised that it made no difference.
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Five comparatives planned, four actually made.
N.1: FW190 vs. Macchi C.205N (notice, the C.205N and the C.205V were two completely different aircrafts). An exchange between pilots, with col. Tondi on the Fw 190A-5 (n.1163), and Hptm Behrens on the Macchi 205N (MM.499). First climbing to 8,000 meters, then fighting (with change of positions); then descend to 6,000 meters with a speed and combat test; then fight at 2,000 meters. The Fw 190 climbs better than the C.205N because the Macchi can't use full power due to the too small radiator (an easy fix, but those were still prototypes), In mockup fight at 8000 they were rougly equal. At 6,000 meters the FW190 is faster, and this helps a lot, because when the Macchi is in a good position (starting at the back of the German), the '190 sprints away.
N.2: FW190 vs. Fiat G55. G.55 piloted by Tondi (MM.492) against Hptm Behrens with the same '190. Same protocol. Faster takeoff for the G.55, similar initial climb, then the G.55 climbs better to 5,000 meters, and roughly equal to 8,000 meters. Dog-fight at 8000: the Fiat turns better, while the '190 is superior in roll (it was superior in roll to anything), although, at 8,000 meters, it was clearly lacking in power and lift. At 6,000 meters the '190 is 15km/h faster than the G55 (the FW190 had the max speed exactly at 6000m).
N.3: FW190 vs. Reggiane 2005. Ten.col. Baylon with Reggiane 2005, Behrens with Fw 190. In this test the climb to 8,000 meters was omitted. In the climb to 6000m, they were equivalent although the Reggiane couldn't use full power due to the small radiator (same as above); 'equivalent' in dogfight at 6,000 and 2,000 meters; in the speed test at 6000m, the Fw 190 is slightly faster.
N.4: Pilots' exchange Maj. Gasperi with the '109G, St. Ing. Beauvais, with the C.205V (MM.9288). The test had to be cancelled due to a problem to the hydraulic system of the Macchi's undercarriage.
N.5. Bf109G vs. G.55. This is the only one that sees the '109G-4 (pilot, Beauvais) as protagonist, this time against Gasperi's G.55. Standard protocol apart from the omission of the test at 2,000 meters, being the Germans evidently more interested in the high altitude capabilities of these fighters. The G.55 is faster in the first 2,000 meters of ascent, but not by much; the '109 is faster up to 5,000 meters, then the G.55 took the lead again to 8000m, but the differences were small in all cases. In dogfight, the G.55 was considered 'a little better' at all altitudes, the '109 was 'a little faster' at 6000m, And finally the dive test.
Both these two planes and the C.205V of the 'observer' Baylon participated in it: all three planes, proved to be equally fast.
So the German interest was justified. The G.55 was easily on par with the best they had, and better at high altitude, despite carrying more guns, ammos and fuel. More. The FW190 required 100 octane C3 fuel, that the Germans had in short supply. The Italians and the Bf109 used more easily available B4, 87 octane, fuel. But the Bf109 fuselage was already stretched by the DB605 engine. It couldn't carry more weight. While, with his larger wings, to install the DB603 in the Fiat G55 was almost plug and play.
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@M4NAH1MEK0 The 960hp Isotta Fraschini Asso XI/L.121 was a good engine that could have easily been evolved further. Simply in 1939, when the Regia Aeronautica reverted the previous decision to rely on radials (that, apart for Isotta Fraschini, stopped the development of powerful inlines in Italy in the early '30s, exactly when the German, Brits and Americans begun the development of the DB601, Merlin and Allison V-1710) they specifically wanted inverted V engines. Infact Fiat had to invert the V of the A.38 engine they were developing.
"bribes" are an easy explanation for everything, but not necessarily a correct one. The early '30s decision to rely on radials was absolutely not liked by the engine manufacturers. Until then they only made liquid cooled engines for the higher power outputs, so they had to acquire the licence from foreign manufacturers to make radials. Of the main aircraft designers, nor Castoldi (Macchi) nor Gabrielli (Fiat) liked radials. Only Longhi (Reggiane) was an advocate of radials, but in the early '30s he was not even in Italy.
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@M4NAH1MEK0 As said, the Asso was developed by Isotta Fraschini indipendently, since the Regia Aeronautica didn't requested it, so it's developement had not the priority the DB601 or the Merlin had. Despite this, it had a maximum continuous power of 900 hp at 4000m, that's more than the DB600, while the DB601A had a maximum continuous power of 950 hp at 4500m and an emergency power of 1020hp at 4000m for five minutes. The Isotta Fraschini was slightly less powerful, but not in a different league, they were comparable (due to the "cube root law" rule, the difference in performances of two aircrafts equipped with them would have been negligible, and infact the Dewotine D520, equipped with an engine with similar performances, was perfectly comparable with the early Spitfires and Bf109), and several improvements had been designed (L.122, Reggiane 102) but not developed, because they would have ben only slight improvements over the DB601Aa for which Alfa Romeo acquired the production licence in 1939 and, as said, the Regia Aeronautica specifically requested inverted V engines.
Yeah, they DID acquire foreign licences for radial engines. The Piaggo P.XI was the Gnome et Rohne 14K Mistral Major. The Alfa Romeo from the 125 to the 128 were the Bristol Jupiter and Pegasus. The Fiat A.74 and A.80 were P&W R1535 and 1690, altough heavily modified. From that base had been developed the Piaggio P.XII and P.XV, the Alfa Romeo 135 and 136 and the Fiat A.82.
Your view of the relationship between higly skilled designers and their employers is quite naif. Guys like Castoldi, Gabrielli, Longhi and Zapata could have worked everywere they wanted, in Italy or abroad, and were higly paid by the respective employers to not do so. Fiat simply manufactured what it had been requested to. It's not like they where happy to produce low cost biplanes instead of more complex, and remunerative, aircrafts. Fact is that the last purchaser of the Cr.42 had been the Luftwaffe (see "evidencies").
You talked about "evidences", but you didn't brought any.
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