Comments by "" (@neutronalchemist3241) on "Trope Talk: Mary Sue" video.

A Mary Sue is a central character that isn't challenged by the plot. It doesn't count how powerful he is, or if he is the centre of the universe. A charcter can legitimately be the centre of the universe (IE think of Harui Suzumiya) without being a Mary Sue. That's why Goku (and I'm not really a Dragon Ball fan) isn't a Mary Sue (if anything Dragon Ball's problem is repetitiveness). In his case, the plot is specifically made to challenge him. It doesn't count how powerful he is. There are always characters that are as, or more, powerful. It doesn't count if he gets power-ups. Power ups are legit in his universe (that's specifically stated) and many characters get them. It doesnt' count if he generally wins. Not only that's true for many heroes (plot armour doesn't make Mary Sues), but, contrary to many of them, we know that he can loose (it happened several times) or even die (it happened several times). And that's why Rey IS a Mary Sue instead. SHE'S NOT CHALLENGED BY THE PLOT. It doesn't count if she's a girl. She gets out of troubles simply by showing to possess abilities that she shouldn't logically have without any explanation (is like Goku suddenly becoming smarter than Bulma in building mechanisms). Or getting gratuitous power-ups that simply decided to happen at the right time without the need for any training. She doesn't need to train, she doesnt need to do anything. The universe seems to conspire to make her look awesome without any real effort.
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A Mary Sue is a central character that isn't challenged by the plot. It doesn't count how powerful he is, or if he is the centre of the universe. A charcter can legitimately be the centre of the universe (IE think of Harui Suzumiya) without being a Mary Sue. In case of a Mary Sue the writing simply seems to be made to make him look awesome without any real effort.
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The canon character on which it had been used the most first than Rey was probalby Wesley Crusher (so much for it being a sexist trope).
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@zaphael7238 Actually girls are more likely to get a free pass. The criticism Rey had is NOTHING in respect to what would have been, had a random guy shown to possess bigger powers than Luke and Anakin without training and any explanation. Asoka Tano teenage girl had been much criticised, before the evolution of the character shown that she was a really deep and likeable character, and not a bait to attract child viewers. Asoka tano teenage boy? People would have simply quit to watch the series without giving him any possibility.
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@androkguz A Mary sue is a central character that isn't challenged by the plot. That's what specifically makes him boring. Not the fact that he's powerful, but the fact that he's too good for the story he's in. That's why Rey is a Mary Sue and Goku is not. As said: "if anything, Dragon Ball's problem is repetitiveness".
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@androkguz I watched it, but, believe it or not, Red didn't provide the first definition of the Mary Sue trope, and I'm not bound to agree with her. It had been described and defined thousands of times, and the best definition of a Mary Sue is, "a central character that's not challenged by the plot". Because he's so superior to the story he's in, that the plot can give him only minor nuisances, not real challenges. That's why Rey is a Mary Sue, and Goku is not. Resting on Star Wars, Red doesn't know the source material very well also. It has been estabilished IN MOVIE that "wonderboy pilot" Luke had experience in piloting starfighters (T-16) BEFORE joining the rebellion. It's not like he became a pilot out of nothing, like Rey became an engineer, a gunner, a swordfighter and a jedi out of nothing.
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Anakin is a failure. He lost everything. The Universe kicked him without even making him a sympatetic-sue, and the prophecy about him only applied to a last act of redemption.
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@ourkeving I'm not. Why should I? Before Rey, the canon character on which the definition "Mary Sue" had been used the most is probably Wesley Crusher.
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A Mary Sue is a central character that isn't challenged by the plot. It doesn't count how powerful he is, or if he is the centre of the universe. A charcter can legitimately be the centre of the universe (IE think of Harui Suzumiya) without being a Mary Sue. That's why Goku (and I'm not really a Dragon Ball fan) isn't a Mary Sue (Dragon Ball's problem is, if anything, repetitiveness). In his case, the plot is specifically made to challenge him. It doesn't count how powerful he is. There are always characters that are as, or more, powerful. It doesn't count if he gets power-ups. Power ups are legit in his universe (that's specifically stated) and many characters get them. It doesnt' count if he generally wins. Not only that's true for many heroes (plot armour doesn't make Mary Sues), but, contrary to many of them, we know that he can loose (it happened several times) or even die (it happened several times). And that's why Rey IS a Mary Sue. SHE'S NOT CHALLENGED BY THE PLOT. It doesn't count if she's a girl. She gets out of troubles simply by showing to possess abilities that she shouldn't logically have without any explanation (is like Goku suddenly becoming smarter than Bulma in building mechanisms). Or getting gratuitous power-ups that simply decided to happen at the right time without the need for any training. She doesn't need to train, she doesnt need to do anything. The universe seems to conspire to make her look awesome without any real effort. First than Rey, the most famous example of sueish canon character was Stat Trek TNG's Wesley Crusher (so much that, for a long time, to indicate a male Mary Sue the expression "the Wesley" had been favoured over "Gary Stu" ), so much for the sexism of the trope.
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A Mary Sue is a central character that isn't challenged by the plot. That's his defining trait. It doesn't count how powerful he is, or if he is the centre of the universe. A charcter can legitimately be the centre of the universe (IE think of Harui Suzumiya) without being a Mary Sue. That's why Goku (and I'm not really a Dragon Ball fan) isn't a Mary Sue. In his case, the plot is specifically made to challenge him. It doesn't count how powerful he is. There are always characters that are as, or more, powerful. It doesn't count if he gets power-ups. Power ups are legit in his universe (that's specifically stated) and many characters get them. It doesnt' count if he generally wins. Not only that's true for many heroes (plot armour doesn't make Mary Sues), but, contrary to many of them, we know that he can loose (it happened several times) or even die (it happened several times). And that's why Rey IS a Mary Sue. She's not Challenged by the plot. It doesn't count if she's a girl. She gets out of troubles simply by showing to possess abilities that she shouldn't logically have without any explanation (is like Goku suddenly becoming smarter than Bulma in building mechanisms). Or getting gratuitous power-ups that simply decided to happen at the right time without the need for any training. She doesn't need to train, she doesnt need to do anything. The universe seems to conspire to make her look awesome without any real effort.
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And that's why she's a mary Sue. A Mary Sue is a central character that isn't challenged by the plot. That's his defining trait. It doesn't count how powerful he is, or if he is the centre of the universe. A charcter can legitimately be the centre of the universe (IE think of Harui Suzumiya) without being a Mary Sue. That's why Goku (and I'm not really a Dragon Ball fan) isn't a Mary Sue. In his case, the plot is specifically made to challenge him. It doesn't count how powerful he is. There are always characters that are as, or more, powerful. It doesn't count if he gets power-ups. Power ups are legit in his universe (that's specifically stated) and many characters get them. It doesnt' count if he generally wins. Not only that's true for many heroes (plot armour doesn't make Mary Sues), but, contrary to many of them, we know that he can loose (it happened several times) or even die (it happened several times). Rey instead IS a Mary Sue. She's not Challenged by the plot. It doesn't count if she's a girl. She gets out of troubles simply by showing to possess abilities that she shouldn't logically have without any explanation (is like Goku suddenly becoming smarter than Bulma in building mechanisms). Or getting gratuitous power-ups that simply decided to happen at the right time without the need for any training. She doesn't need to train, she doesnt need to do anything. The universe seems to conspire to make her look awesome without any real effort.
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A Mary Sue is a central character that isnt's challenged by the plot. It doesn't count how powerful he is, or if he is the centre of the universe. A charcter can legitimately be the centre of the universe (IE think of Harui Suzumiya) without being a Mary Sue. That's why Goku isn't a Mary Sue. In his case, the plot is specifically made to challenge him. It doesn't count how powerful he is. There are always characters that are as, or more, powerful. It doesn't count if he gets power-ups. Power ups are legit in his universe (that's specifically stated) and many characters get them. It doesnt' count if he generally wins. Not only that's true for many heroes (plot armour doesn't make Mary Sues), but, contrary to many of them, we know that he can loose (it happened several times) or even die (it happened several times).
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@mattymag2394 And he won the world martial arts tournament only at the third attempt. He lost to Muten Rōshi the first time and to Tien Shinhan the second.
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@56jklove Is because there are so many of them that Red had to choose the wrong example?
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A Mary Sue is a central character that isn't challenged by the plot. It doesn't count how powerful he is, or if he is the centre of the universe. A charcter can legitimately be the centre of the universe (IE think of Harui Suzumiya) without being a Mary Sue. That's why Goku (and I'm not really a Dragon Ball fan) isn't a Mary Sue. In his case, the plot is specifically made to challenge him. It doesn't count how powerful he is. There are always characters that are as, or more, powerful. It doesn't count if he gets power-ups. Power ups are legit in his universe (that's specifically stated) and many characters get them. It doesnt' count if he generally wins. Not only that's true for many heroes (plot armour doesn't make Mary Sues), but, contrary to many of them, we know that he can loose (it happened several times) or even die (it happened several times). And that's why Rey IS a Mary Sue. SHE'S NOT CHALLENGED BY THE PLOT. It doesn't count if she's a girl. She gets out of troubles simply by showing to possess abilities that she shouldn't logically have without any explanation (is like Goku suddenly becoming smarter than Bulma in building mechanisms). Or getting gratuitous power-ups that simply decided to happen at the right time without the need for any training. She doesn't need to train, she doesnt need to do anything. The universe seems to conspire to make her look awesome without any real effort.
1