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Luredreier
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Comments by "Luredreier" (@Luredreier) on "Is the Russian Minority in the EU Being Persecuted?" video.

@atm9862 pparently not, since they're not given citizenship without knowing the language. And sure, learning the language is one thing. You can enforce that by requiring companies to offer services in your language etc. Giving people incentives to learn your language as it'll create job opportunities for them. But banning people from education in their own native language or suppressing their culture just doesn't fly. NATO is funded on a principle that their members are democratic. If you don't give your minority rights, then that's essentially violating the terms under which we are required to offer you military aid in case of a attack on you. Yes, Russia is our enemy, but Russians are not. And I say that as someone from a country *bordering * them. If this behavior continues I will call the representatives of the party I vote for and ask for them to request a Norwegian call for the expulsion of the Baltic countries from NATO. I doubt that anything will come from it. But still, that's my position. I get that it's scary. And you're well within your rights to require companies within your borders to know your language to operate. If you want to offer scholarships abroad for Russian speakers and just in general encourage them to move to other European countries using the carrot that's definitely within your rights. Indeed someone in my village of 1 200 people here in Norway are from Latvia I think, but from a Russian speaking family (one of her parents a ethnic Russian, the other a ethnic Ukrainian, both where invited to the country by the local government during the USSR because of their skills being useful to the local economy), she has now migrated here where she is *welcome*. There are ways of encouraging changes that's kosher and that doesn't involve coercion. Your current treatment of them is creating hostility and is actively discouraging integration in your society.
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 @RoninTF2011 If it's banned from schools or any other expressions of it then it's banned. They have a right to education in their own language.
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@karliskokorevics6902 Languages don't belong in constitutions, except for to protect peoples right to speak their own. A constitution should be about the fundamental principles of democracy and human rights only.
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@MantasJurkuvenas Danes and Friseans where replaced by Germans in Schleswig-Holstein, Karelians by Russians. You're not alone in having experienced that kind of thing. That doesn't mean that people don't have rights to their own language and culture. Especially when it's such a large percentage of your population.
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@lattenoisette So that somehow give you the right to punish people living in the Baltics for actions taken by people in a different country? When did collective punishment suddenly become acceptable there?
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@@kawinfinityMost of them never did. Indeed Volodymyr Oleksandrovych Zelenskyy, their president is a native Russian language speaker. Ukrainian is his second language. Russian speakers are just as much victims of those extremists as Ukrainian speakers are. And honestly a part of the reason for their behavior is likely the same kind of discrimination that you guys are practicing.
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@numerodue1309 As individuals they're fully within their rights to ask you to use a shared language to speak with them. You're after all not under any obligation to speak with them. It's only unreasonable if they have a job servicing you, as you have a right to services in your own language. Be that from government organizations or from companies.
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@karliskokorevics6902 The coming from another country is debatable. Remember that you capitulated. As far as USSR citizens where concerned they had just as much right to move there as you have to any EU country. If it was a illegal occupation or not depends on what country you ask. You did not have any government in excil anywhere. And while the diplomatic service in exile continued to exist its legitimacy in various countries varied over the years. Like it or not, the territory was de facto USSR, not territory occupied during a war. It sucks, but they moved into the country legally by following the laws of the government at the time. It wasn't democratic. But at that point it was pretty much legitimate however we may have felt about it. As a result it's wrong to treat the civilians following those laws as criminals. They where moving around within the same political entity, the USSR, just like you can now move here to Norway through the EU laws. If we ever leave the EEC we'll of course have to deal with what rights any Latcian, Lithuanian or Estonian within our borders should have. But they came in legally regardless. And as far as the USSR citizens in question where concerned they loved around legally. Just like Latvians, Lithuanians and Estonians migrating elsewhere in the USSR did, including Latvians in Ukraine or east Germany. Should they somehow be denied citizenship or their own language and heritage just because east Germany was under USSR control at the time? Don't get me wrong. I agree that the territory being under Society rule was wrong. But that was never the citizens fault.
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@RoninTF2011 ctually EU laws require classes in minority languages. And Norway offer classes in Sami, Kven, Romani and Romanés (although the later two are a bit problematic as we still aren't offering remote classes for when they're traveling) And there's a shortage of teachers for most of these languages.
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@mindob766 It's more complicated then that. The current Russian population is a mix of migrants and indigenous Russian speakers. Remember that people have traveled and traded and funded cities for a long time. Many cities have had a mixed ethnicity for a long, long time.
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 @atm9862 You can't force anyone to speak a language. You can only encourage it. Make the language useful. But punishing people who don't use it won't work. It has to be a choice.
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@aghileshemdani3144 Belgium has 3 main ethnicities. The Flemish speakers in the north (close to Dutch) The Wallonians in the south (essentially French) and the German (and a tiny bit of Luxembourgish speakers) in the east. The capital is mixed language.
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It's not justified, no matter what might be happening. Collective punishment is never justified.
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@kawinfinityThe invasion sucked, but that was the actions of the state, not of civilians.
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 @Leo-it1lo Exactly.
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@jeroencrabbe Yeah, and sure, you are free to think that they demanding French is rude and it is. But you have no right to force them to use Flemish unless you are interacting with them in a setting where you are a customer or client and they are meant to serve your needs. Meaning in a government setting or a company. As far as politeness is concerned I'd expect the lingua franca to be French in southern Belgium and Flemish in the north. If a walloon moves north and still expect everyone to speak French to them and makes no effort to learn the local language then they are being rude. And you're under no obligation to humor them. If you're in the south and know French, then of course you should use the language. If you don't know the language and expect to live down there you should learn it. You are two ethnic groups sharing one country, and both of you have a right to respect for your own culture and language from the other.
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@jakel8627 Yeah, that's just not how it works. Indeed the EU and the council of Europe is making a huge amount of effort to protect small languages. There's languages in Europe that had less then 100 speakers just a few years ago that's growing today. And many small languages are experiencing growth these days, with a increasing number of people using them as their first language at home. This is even the case within the UK with Cornish, a language that was essentially dead, but it's growing now.
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 @Leo-it1lo Exactly. It's legitimate to promote a language with carrots if you want and you feel it needs protection. But you have no right to outright harm other languages.
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@ion282 I live in Norway, most of us speak Norwegian. However I used to live in Sápmi, in a Sami speaking village for a while. Living there I of course had classes to learn northern Sami (the local language), but I had classes in Norwegian (in elementary school we had 3 classes at each level, one of them being Norwegian). We where just 3 students at my level speaking Norwegian however, so when one of them decided thy had learned enough Sami to want to take classes in Sami (and the municipality decided to cut the funding for translation services before my mother could learn Sami) we ended up being forced to move, within our own country. See why I'm a bit pissed at you guys right now? Every language and every minority has *rights*.
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@RoninTF2011 Given that this is decades ago now and many of them are literally born there and that others lived there during previous periods under Russian rule, like under the Tzar... Yeah, you're still on the wrong side of ethics mate.
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Also, for our minorities there is whole school education. When I went to school in Sápmi I couldn't have math classes or history etc with my Sami peers because I did not understand their minority language that was their language of instruction, so I had ro have separate classes in Norwegian.
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@MantasJurkuvenas It is. You have every right to be pissed at Russia for landing so many Russians within your borders. But you don't have a right to be pissed at any of them that where *civilians*.
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@sri33333 Yes, and that convention is something that a state has violated. You have every right to be pissed at Russia for that and indeed they're just as responsible as you with finding solutions. But said civilians are a different matter. Whatever that convention says they're living there now. Such conventions are about how states act towards each other. But other treaties govern how we treat *civilians*.
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@titosyettos2689 You can't expect anyone to follow rules or norms that don't respect them in return. You started of without giving citizenship to the ethnic Russians. And treating them as second class citizens. It's not weird at all that they're reluctant to integrate with you. And that's your fault, not theirs at this point.
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@RoninTF2011 The point is that someone (I've lost count by now) in this thread where arguing that Latvians etc has a right to the country because you've been there long term, while they're "new". We're pointing out that they're a diverse group, with people that arrived as traders while you where under western powers and people who arrived under the Tzar as well as people who arrived during the USSR. This is people who have lived in the country for generations as well as people who arrived in their own lifetimes. And even the ones who arrived in their own lifetimes have built up lives there. They're people, like your neighbors and friends. And in your mind you've reduced them to "other" strangers people who can't be trusted and that don't deserve rights. As for them, well, faced with this kind of distrust, why should they wish to integrate with people who don't respect them? Instead of proving the Russian propaganda wrong and earning their trust you're treating them as second class citizens. This is really quite simple. Is the rules they live by something you would want to live under if the rules where reversed? Would you give up Latvian if you found yourself not even treated as a citizen in a country you live in? Learning a language is hard to begin with. And learning it to deal with people treating you like that?
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@sebe2255 You should be able to learn at school in your regional language. But I assume at least that you where fluent in the language of instruction? That's not the case here. We're talking about kids who haven't learned the language of instruction before they're expected to learn complicated concepts in it. That has been proven to reduce school performance. And it's that kind of behavior that we have had to apologize to our minority for here in Norway, because it was human rights violations.
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@RoninTF2011 It has nothing to do with laziness or their arrogance. You don't learn a language if it's not useful to you. By excluding Russian speakers you created that bubble. Look at any country in the world with a ghetto. And compare it to countries without ghettos. You'll see that the difference is that the minority in question is subject to discrimination of some kind and does not feel respected by the majority population. It leads to crime and alienation. The ghettos in question often have their own dialects at a minimum if not full blown separate languages. And it's a result of faulty goverment policies, not the minority population itself, be that former slaves, immigrants, or indigenous populations. Anyone that's being excluded by society. And it's not just laws, it's peoples behavior too. Hostile language in the public debate, exclusionary behavior etc. We've all made similar mistakes at some point or other. And we're still paying for our actions. Because repairing this kind of damage takes time. As for throwing anyone out, trust me, if you do that you'll lose support in the west in moments. We might still be legally required to answer in case you get invaded, but I'm fairly sure that we're not actually technically required to have troops stationed in your country. If you want other countries to go past the bare minimum required like we have with Ukraine you need to actually stay sympathetic. And trust me, this is not a good look to those of us outside your country...
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Seriously, if they're worried about security concerns regarding the Russian speaking population then it makes more sense to give them citizenship instead of not doing so. I get that it's scary to have a large Russian minority when living near Russias borders. But by not giving them citizenship they can't really move elsewhere either... -_- I suggest give citizenship, language rights etc, but provide incentives towards moving to other EU countries that has less security concerns and therefore will feel more welcoming to this minority. And with incentives I mean the carrot, not the stick. Provide free English, German etc classes to the Russian minority. Offer scholarships abroad. Subsidize resettlement costs etc. But under no circumstances force anyone out.
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It's absolutely insane to expect any minority to respect a majority that doesn't respect them back...
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@karliskokorevics6902 Exactly, the basic minimum required for a country to function. Everything else should be open to political debate. We're talking basics like voting rights, freedom of expression etc. Not you have to learn things in language x or don't have rights unless you speak language y.
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 @karliskokorevics6902 Latgalian should be protected too.
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@logan-tm7gf The US has actively suppressed minority languages since the first world war. Many people spoke Norwegian as their native language prior to WW1 in the US. But during the war nationalism spiked and people speaking German, or for that matter languages sounding like German ended up being suppressed causing many Americans to lose their former first language and their cultural heritage, instead switching to speaking English...
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@Eoin-B dissagree. Here in Norway we generally require people to learn Norwegian or at least a nordic language in service jobs. We all speak English just fine. And you can get by just fine with English here. And you can and indeed have a right to classes in English. But we offer you carrots to learn our language, instead of the Baltic sticks. And that's the proper way of promoting and protecting a language. In the case of Wales and Cornwall I suggest making it mandatory for companies and the government to provide services in Cornish and the Welsh language if a user walks up to them and requests service in the language. That creates job opportunities for language users, but since a store for instance only need one employee to speak the language to fulfill that requirement it still doesn't hamper non speakers much. You can scale the punishment for noncompliance over time to make it reasonable. Say require a 50% discount for any product or service in addition to other discounts when failing to meet the standard. It'll give benefits to speakers and employers who hire them both. And companies that don't or can't can rise prices ro compensate and still keep things under control. As one example.
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@RoninTF2011 We do offer services in those languages here in my country. Indeed a number of government services are even available in Latvian, although we don't offer everything in such a small language that's not a historical minority language here. You get mother tongue classes in Latcian here too. But if Latvians grew in number and became a significant portion of our population we would of course offer regular education in Latvian as well as all government services in Latvian.
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@RoninTF2011 We're not asking you to use their language, we're telling you that it's a human rights violation to not offer them a chance to provide those services themselves in their language. When a third of your country speaks their language you have a duty to hire some of them as teachers and educate then in their language. And to hire people who know their language to provide other government services. In the process you can also encourage your own language by making said language a requirement for the same positions. Basically it's their right to have their language be treated with equal respect to yours. Because it's not just your land, they grew up there and it's theirs as well at this point, just as much as it is yours.
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@RoninTF2011 No, when you're talking about a significant percentage of your population and they've lived there for more then one generation it's no longer a case of them having any kind of duty to speak your language. At that point you're dealing with a multiethnic nation and each ethnicity has its own rights. If you want them to learn your language use the carrot to encourage it, and treat them with respect so they'll want to.
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And sure, you can encourage a language for integration. You're generally required to learn Norwegian to get most jobs here in Norway that in any way, shape or form interacts with Norwegian customers or clients despite all of us speaking English. That's how we protect our language from English. But we still offer services in English, government services and services from companies alike. It's also common with some limited proficiency in another language. Spanish, German, French or even Russian in a few cases.
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@numerodue1309 Well, how I'd handle that if I was a politican and had the power to change the laws would be to give them citizenship and all the other rights equal to your own ethnicity. But also pass a law making it punishable for a company to fail to provide services in either language. In her case for instance, if she don't speak your language and hasn't hired someone who can you would then be able to drag her to court and potentially shut down the company. But to keep it fair she'd equally be able to drag your company to court if she's not getting services in Russian when she is the customer. If the law is one way then it is indeed russiophobia or racist or whatever. They are being discriminated against. So why do you expect them not to return the favour?
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 @jonathanstein5049 I do, I live in Norway. I still consider your governments behavior outrageous.
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 @janpol466 Excuse me, but may I ask what comment you're answering? Because as you can probably see it's starting to get a little bit crowded here...
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@ernestshercenbergs706 Yes, it is rude. However, compared to denying them citizenship and basic rights that's essentially nothing. People don't learn a language because you try to force them. You have to make them feel welcome and like they want to interact with you.
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 @pavelbavtra Exactly. People need to respect each others languages, cultures and indeed just each other as *people*.
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 @snarveien1853 Exactly. I'm not going to lay down my life to defend people who are actively discriminating against fellow residents of their country.
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 @hydro00505 Yes, it was Russification. And that's a issue that you have with the Soviet government at the time. But it does not justify Latvianization. One wrong doesn't make another right.
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@sebe2255 Forcing anyone just doesn't work. It breeds resentment and that in turn leads to resistance against your policies. Be they language policies or policies with regards to crime. The racism in the US has lead to a increase in crime among their minorities. And we here in the west have made plenty of mistakes ourselves leading to similar issues. But in recent years we at least have stopped treating significant percentages of our population like crap like they are. Of course, that still doesn't justify our treatment of immigrants. But I do believe that we have a right to criticize this.
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@sri33333 We offer a whole school education or at the very least a interpreter whenever someone don't understand the main language of instruction. It's harder to learn things if you don't understand the language. If you came to Norway as a child and we didn't offer classes taught in either English or Latvian and you didn't understand Norwegian you would be at a significant disadvantage in class trying to learn math or history or anything else. You have a right to have classes in a language you can *understand*. You'd of course also be taught Norwegian to help you adapt and save us on interpreter costs. Thankfully we're also proficient in English, so if you are as well that's usually a decent compromise. But we wouldn't expect you to learn anything in Norwegian unless you're actually proficient in it. And expecting you to do so is racist.
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@elvangulley3210 If they had been there for 3-5 years I'd probably agree. But this is people who have lived there for decades or even centuries in the case of people who moved there under the Tzar. Treating them as second class citizens is no longer acceptable in any way, shape or form.
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 @titosyettos2689 Not if they're being treated like second class citizens.
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 @titosyettos2689 "proper nation" jeez you guys really are racist...
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@HungaryBased On and off. Remember that the Baltic languages where always a majority language there, also under the Tzars. And also, they spent a lot of time under German and Nordic rule as well. Their history is nuanced. But they definitely should respect that they haven't been alone in their own country since before the northern crusades. And pretending otherwise is foolish. Any other ethnic groups living there, even if it's their former conquerers have *rights*.
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@Sivatra Some will always refuse to integrate. But if you refuse citizenship etc that's definitely not helping. If they had been treated with equal respect from the start you'd probably have had more integration.
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@RoninTF2011 Because said colonizers are also inhabitants and a significant portion of the population. And quite frankly we've all been colonizers at some point in our history, even you guys. At the very least compared to the pre-indoeuropean hunter gatherers. As humans we need to learn to live together in relative harmony.
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@RoninTF2011 A place that's also a autocratic hell hole. They have a right to make a live for themselves. If they where Russians currently living in Russia and they wanted access you have a right to deny them said access. But they're not. They are currently living in your (and also equally much *their*) country. Any talk about them needing to move out is a racist fever dream.
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@sebe2255 That I can actually agree with. Requiring Latvian classes in school is reasonable. Requiring Latvian as the language of instruction for people who don't have it as a native language is *not*.
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 @elvangulley3210 You're the one that's arrogant demanding that they learn it. People learn a language because it's useful to them, not because of the norms of a different society.
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 @ion282 Teaching French is one thing. Teaching in French is another. The first is of course fine. The second is unacceptable.
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@ion282 Do you really expect someone who only speaks Basque and don't even understand French to understand math taught in French? Would you understand anything you learned in school if you where suddenly expected to be taught in Russian or Mandarin or Thai or some such?
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@sebe2255 Perhaps not advanced math, but you're still years behind your peers, and since they're talking about outlawing it, anyone who has till now bad Russian as their language of instruction, and who are learning advanced math is suddenly at a major disadvantage. Also, I fully believe that whatever country you are in where violating your human rights as well.
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Alright, I have to go now. To anyone that wish to talk with me, I wouldn't be able to reply for a while.
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@emails8621 Are they allowed to run schools with Russian as the language of instruction? No? Then it's banned. We're all aware that we're talking about schools here etc. But it's still a human rights violation.
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@sebe2255 May I ask what language you speak?
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