Comments by "Luredreier" (@Luredreier) on "PolyMatter"
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Regarding the "lack of urgency" that's not entierly true.
A majority of Norwegians do want to end our dependency on oil.
Even our biggest party is split almost down the middle on the issue.
And enviromentalist parties are growing.
That said, we have 3 clearly enviromentalist parties, one left wing (SV), one right wing (V) and one centrist (MDG).
As well as a couple more parties that also cares a lot about the enviroment but that don't has the enviroment as one of their main topics, R and KrF.
Our influence on our society is growing.
And since we're found on both sides of the political spectrum our parties are going to end up being kingmakers in Norwegian elections.
Our oil exploitation is going to end.
The question is just when.
The current biggest party wanted to form a majority coalition, but that failed due to this very issue.
As it is they're trying to form a minority coalition cabinet with only one other party actually within their coalition, depending on support from other parties in the parliament on a case by case basis.
I very much doubt that they'll survive the next 4 years without making a concession on this very issue to one of the enviromentalist parties.
That concession is likely to come in the form of a ban on new exploration, but not extraction.
Any oil or gas already found will likely still mostly be extracted because the two biggest parties in Norway cares so much about predictability for the industries, the oil industry included.
And also, because Europe still need gas supplies to survive the winters, and a alternative source to Russia.
Once Europe is a bit less dependant on gas and we can end extraction without angering the Germans, Dutch, Brits etc, we'll probably ban extraction too.
The reason why our extraction rates are likely to go up is that the conservative cabinet issued a number of oil exploration permits just ahead of the election.
And while we (the enviromentalists) are likely to be able to end the issuing of new permits, we can't legally terminate the existing ones.
Again, predictability.
Yes, we're pissed at the conservatives for doing that.
No, there's nothing we can do about that.
The parties on the gray side of the gray-green scale are still in a majority in this country, although they're losing ground.
But enviromentalists are the ones tipping the scale in the elections.
So we have leverage.
We have a proportional electoral system, that means compromises, compromises and more compromises.
The direction is already pretty much defined, we will win this battle long term.
It's just a question of what exact election we'll end up truly with the upper hand.
In the meantime we're fighting for every inch in this tug of war with the gray parties.
Eventually external pressure from enviromentalist parties entering coalition negotiations and internal pressure from enviromentalists working from within the gray parties is going to tip the scales.
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@aristoclesathenaioi4939 Seriously, can you try not to to let your prejudice cloud your judgement for a moment?
You keep making assumptions about people you don't know.
First of all, human caused climate change is non-controversial here.
That doesn't mean that there isn't a debate about its severity for *Norwegians*.
Yes, climate change will cause issues, more refugees, more damage to infrastructure, supply chain disruptions, loss of glaciers, changes in the living areas of animals and plants, including some animals going extinct etc, that said, all things considered Norways location means that we're getting of relatively speaking easy.
Especially because as a rich nation we're well placed to cope with the consequences.
However the practices that's causing the climate change current are a big part of why we're so rich, and even apart from that we rely on exports to the EU, including Germany who relies on our natural gas.
If they're pissed they might put pressure on us, perhaps even ending our trade agreement with the EU (we are not a EU member state).
Our deal with the EU also involves us paying huge amounts of money to the EU every year.
Basically we're kind of a tributary state of the union, paying money in return for freedom and independence.
Ending our oil and gas exports to the continent could endanger that.
Our wealth also enable us to pay for a expensive military, considering that we are bordering Russia that's seen as rather important as you might imagine...
So while environmentalists like you and me might want to take care of the climate because we think it's the right thing to do it's a more calculated move for a lot of other people.
With costs and benefits both with environmentalism and fossile fuel sales.
Including the potential end of our very nation.
There's multiple different estimates for the future trajectory of the climate given different behaviors.
Also with regards to at least gass sales, Germany has some of the worst and most polluting coal power plants in Europe, while gas power plants are problematic they're still seen as cleaner then those coal plants and less geopolitically problematic then the Russian gas.
So it's actually seen as environmentally friendly by many as well as important from a geopolitical safety point of view to ensure Norwegian gas to Germany, gas that is less polluting then the Russian gas.
This is the kind of evaluations going on here.
I don't agree with the idea that this gas should be extracted.
But there are good arguments for that course of action too.
And people are not just acting out of greed or ignorance.
And remember, a gas power plant can in theory burn hydrogen extracted from water and mostly just produce water steam (and a few other things due to the high temperature that the air is exposed to).
Meaning that getting gas power plants online could be good for the environment long term assuming that hydrogen production ends up coming online.
So yeah, this is a super complicated topic.
The political parties that wants to keep extracting oil and gas for the most part genuinely have credible environmental policies.
That's why the green movement here is so divided.
Environmentalists here have several different ideas about the best way forwards.
Not all of those includes a end to drilling, even if that's our vision in the green party.
And attitudes are shifting.
But there's a bit of lagg and momentum in politics, and it takes time for changes in popular opinion to be reflected in the parliament.
A poll recently actually indicated a slight majority for ending search for new oil and gas, up from a clear majority for continuing drilling just a few years ago.
The industry won't get shut down, that's just not politically realistic here.
But they probably won't get much new search permits anytime soon.
So our production will go down.
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Hum...
How I'd reform it would be to not ban such ships.
But rather do something like if a mode of transportation to, from or between American locations isn't crewed by no less then 75% American or American allied citizens, of which at least 50% must be American citizens you have to pay 5% extra tax on the transportation cost.
If the ship (or other mode of transportation) isn't 75% owned by Americans or American allied citizens, of which at least 50% has to be American citizens you have to pay 5% extra tax (so 10% extra so far), if the construction cost isn't made up of at least 75% cost going to American or American allied companies, at least 50% going to American companies there's another 5% (so 15% total so far), and if the transportation method isn't in the 25% lowest emitting category of all methods available for a route, including the emissions from construction divided up over the expected lifetime of a mode of transportation) there's another 5%, for a total of 20% tax.
So if you drive a Mexican built truck owned by a Canadian and driven by a Mexican and it's pouring out CO2 you'll pay 20% tax, if you drive a Tesla truck with a American driver and owned by a company with two American, one Canadian and one Russian owner you get 0% tax, likewise if the company owns 4 Teslas and have one Chinese, two American and one European driver.
As a example.
Or equally with planes, ships etc.
Of course you'd probably have to negotiate a lot with other countries to find something everyone are okay with.
But that would be the starting point for me at least.
It would encourage a demand for American jobs and companies, it would encourage greener transportation methods and it would encourage American ownership of the businesses in question (the company producing the vehicle would have to have at least 50% American workers and owners etc to qualify with no more then 25% being from countries not America or allied to America)
This kind of protectionist law would provide a strong incentive, but would still have safety valves for the economy to handle a demand that can't be meet internally for whatever reason.
If no ships, crews or owners from America is available and all you have I'd a polluting Russian or Chinese or whatever cargo ship is all you have available, you can use it, you'll just have to pay the extra taxes.
And each potential tax can be avoided separately without interfering with the others.
So you could have American crew on a Korean ship, saving you the 5% of the crew part, or a Philippino crew on a American built ship etc.
It offers flexibility for different companies to find different strategies.
And since you don't demand 100% American crew or ship etc you can be competitive with a mixed crew.
So say bridge crew and engineers being American while others are not etc.
Leading to more ships using a partially American crew to begin with.
Individual taxes can be raised or lowered and the amount needed adjusted to make the relative competitiveness better.
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@changedmynamebcyallwouldnt.. What exactly do you mean?
As for party affiliation...
I actually want a conservative prime minister here in Norway.
But you're right about me landing in the liberitarian left part of the political compass.
No, working for a job isn't slavery.
But my US GF has to work way more hours then me for way less money in a McDonalds...
And is treated like dirt.
And is barely able to pay her bills...
And considering that she's among the lucky ones on a global scale...
There's a balance that needs to be struck.
People with wealth and companies need reliability and consistency.
And the right is correct about the need to simplify laws and regulations.
But you also need workers rights, and a government that truly oversee the economy.
My currently preferred party is open to work with both sides of the political spectrum, and while my values are on the left end side of said party I actually argue for the right end pragmatic position within said party and oppose those within it that wants to align with the left only.
Both for tactical reasons, but also because our main goal is on a different axis then the two of the compass. (I vote for the Norwegian Green Party, it's not anywhere near what say the British one is, and I'd say I belong to the "realos" faction of our party, if I'm to borrow a term for the German green party factions that is, German green party factions don't correspond exactly 1:1 with ours).
And honestly, like I said, there are right wing solutions to problems that also works.
And left wing ones that doesn't.
So yes, while you're right about my ideals being left leaning I'd like to consider myself a pragmatist.
And I can find common grounds with every single party in our parliament.
Unlike most green party members that even include our "progress party".
So in that regard I'm a centrist.
Of course living in Norway and having our values means that my values and ideal world of course align more with Bernie Sanders or Jill Steins then either of the two major parties in the US...
But honestly in the US I'd probably vote for the biggest third party candidate or independent representative that supports electoral reform regardless of party affiliation otherwise.
As I see the first past the post electoral system as the biggest hurdle for the anglophone world.
So much so that I'd otherwise would vote against my ideals in that regard.
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@_TeaMaster No, Singapore uses some variation of first past the post I assume?
My point though wasn't about Singapore, it was that he showed factually wrong information in the video when he used Norway as a example.
The Labor party of Norway in the election year he picked losing the election with the most votes and as the biggest party in parliament with the most representatives because they couldn't come up with a viable combination of parties willing to support a cabinet where they took part.
My comment did not in any way, shape or form even refer to the mess that is Singapores political system...
The point with democracy is not to get the most qualified, or best or whatever people into power.
It's to ensure that the people who are have a consensus backing them and have legitimacy.
Basically its goal is to ensure that everyone feel that while they might not agree with everything being done that at least they have influence on their own lives and that they do not feel like they need to turn to violence to be heard.
In Singapore there's no way of knowing how many people are seriously upset about the state of affairs, living in fear, have serious issues that needs to be resolved, or solutions to major problems that Singapore as a nation has.
Because it's not a real democracy.
Singapore is well run in many ways, but the way it achieved that state is still fucked up beyond belief.
That's my honest opinion.
But I decided not to share it in a separate comment earlier to try to be polite, instead just commenting on the poor choice of example used in the video to contrast against Singapore. But you decided to make that completely off topic comment of yours, so you're welcome.
He could have used our 2001 election instead where the prime minister was from a party with 12,4% of the voters behind them and 22 seats in our 165 seat parliament at the time. Or even the election he did choose but picking the party of our prime minister instead of just the biggest party.
Now, if you're not interested in politics in Norway no one is forcing your hand to read any of this.
No one was forcing you to read my original post either.
But you made the choice to do so, and you made a comment that was 100% irrelevant to the topic of my comment.
Completely missing what I was trying to say.
So you're welcome.
Enjoy reading all of this.
All you achieved was pissing me off by being super rude.
So now I feel no obligation to have any respect for you at all any more.
Hence the above post.
If I had to choose between a well run authoritarian goverment like Sinagpore or arguably China or a poorly run Democracy like the US, Argentina etc I'd personally pick the later, despite how much harder my life would be.
No one is expecting perfection, Taiwan is the only half way decent democracy in the whole region, so I'm not expecting the ruling party in Singapore to play entierly fair.
If Americans can gerrymander then so can they.
But they're not even holding up the pretense and they're using violence and essentially forcing the voters hands instead of pulling the strings in the background like a normal flawed democracy.
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